Get rid of focus spec make everyone have 20 SDI. Necros mystics and mages.
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This will make everyone keep playing parry/mage.
Rock Paper Scissors is inevitable. It's just what it is. Skill lines are meant to be oppositions to one another; Necro Vs Chiv etc. What we need to do is focus on adding to Rock Paper Scissors to make them all relatively comparable, but also giving trade offs for skills invested. If you use a mage weapon to pick up alchemy, that should be a boost to that template. Same with Inscription/poisoning/ninja etc. Why? Because you are using a weapon that only adds defensive capabilities, once dis-armed you are at a huge disadvantage. So depending on what cookie cutter you pick, you should be able to modify it. Every modification should come with a compromise.
The above is why I felt the most recent focus spec was the closest we got to a very close balance between the Rock/Paper/Scissors aspect of the game.
The above is why I felt the most recent focus spec was the closest we got to a very close balance between the Rock/Paper/Scissors aspect of the game.
How does this even make sense? All I been reading how powerful archers are, Parry is, chiv is..but we still have a small bunch trying to nerf pure Mage damage..
Pure Mage 30 sdi (innate Scribe +10)
Mystic, Necro, Parry, Alchemy -20sdi (innate Scribe +10)
Taming, Bush,Ninja, Weave, Chiv -15sdi (innate Scribe +10)
So caps are 40,30,25 I don't see how that's unbalanced it's keep pure mages that give up all defense more damage per spell. Bumped some mages +15 and some should give up the damage for more survivability..
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I dont want to force anyone to play a non parry character. But if you want the better defense, you have to get a malus in offense. There is/should always be a trade off. I dont mind if people play mystic parry mages or necro parry mages, as long as the sdi is 15 or heavily reduced. Archers already got a nerf with moving shot update and now with the damage update. Maybe there is still a little tweak to do, but please dont tell me Archers/Dexxers are OP in comparison to a parry/mage.
The issue you just brought up though is that non-mages already have very good offense, and very good defense. If you nerf the damage of a focus mage with parry, then you are taking away their offense. Compared to other templates, they will be useless, and no one will play them anymore. The rock, scissors, paper aspect of 1v1's goes like this right now:
Focus mages w/ parry > Archers/Dexxers >> Tank/Archer Mages > Focus parry mages
Right now, Tank/Archer mages are underpowered defensively. They are viable in 1v1's against mages, but are so weak defensively that they are useless in the field. If you attempt to nerf focus mages w/ parry with the goal of putting them on the same level as Tank/Archer Mages, then all you're going to accomplish is to destroy the class, and Dexxers/Archers are going to be the only class that has good defense and good offense. The nerfs to Archery are not going to fix that, I promise. If you nerf the spell damage of focus parry mages, than in 1v1's they will be completely useless, and in field fighting they will not be good enough to compete. All that's going to happen is that people are going to play mystic parry mages and necro parry mages instead, and you will have effectively killed the focus mage parry class- giving people less variety and choice in their gameplay, and just making this game that much more ****tier.
With an archer nerf I'd play a non parry char.
Better defense? "Better" than who's exactly? Are you saying it's better than EVERYONE's? Or just non-Parry mages? It is not better than EVERYONE's defenses. Archers usually have bandages AND confidence heals (they still have a powerful offense); Holy fisters have bushido, parry and 4/6 chiv spells (they still have a powerful offense); etc. It's only better than Archer/Tank mages defenses, and it's supposed to be. The same way Archer/Tank mages have better Offenses, and they do have better offenses. And btw, we're trying to help Archer/Tank mages have a better defense too by taking away the tactics requirement.
There already is a trade-off. Parry is a defensive skill. Wrestling/Anatomy is a defensive skill. They could instead go with Swords/Tactics/Poisoning/Scribe/Alchy/etc and do way more damage- the same way Archer/Tank mages do. That's called a trade-off and it's a pretty big one. Don't believe me? Try 1v1'ing a splinter tank mage on a parry mage. Again, focus mage parry characters are NOT OP. If you nerf them, all people are going to do is stop playing them, and play Mystic parry mages and necro parry mages instead.
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Focus spec sidelined every other casting school since it came out. Nothing has as much offense with amazing defense like the focus parry mage period. Only template even remotely comparable is wrestle parry chivalry char. But Chivalry offense is still very weak compared to focus parry mage. Only way a chiv temp can compete is to run extras like taming and weaving and ninja. If anyone thinks otherwise your not seeing the entire picture of balance. Only place youll see anything other then that is in a big grinder fight over harrowers or spawns.
Better defense than a non parry mage. Is it really that hard to get that? Archers got bandages sure which can slip and take 4 secs. What good pvp archer has bushido? What powerful offense do Holy Fisters have, besides Holy Fist?
Parry/Mages already go with Alchy/Scibe and/or Poisoning.
You shouldnt just want to balance between any mage template and forget the balance between mage templates and dexxer templates.
So the devs are on the right path with not allowing splinter to go off with disarm.... but why is it allowed to go off with ANY special- period? It is essentially a free special (bleed) AND walks the target. Is there any reason that it should be going off while getting DPed /AIed/ etc? 2 specials going off at once is pretty overpowered. Only have it go off on non-special hits.
It will still be very useful.
It will still be very useful.
A lot of top archers have bushido on their templates, for one.
For two, a "holy fister" as you put it only takes up one skill. So, they can combine it with plenty of other skills to get high dps on top of fist. Not sure where you were going with that.
Maybe those archers should rethink their templates
Well he said Holy Fisters have Bushido, Parry and 4/6 Chiv Spells + good offense. This leads either to a Wrestling/Parry Fister, who doesnt have much more good offense compared to Focused/Parry/Mage for example. Or maybe to a DS Fister. Good offense sure but a little limited. If tactics requirement for specials would be removed completely I would like to have a look if that template is a bit out of balance.
Yes, Atlantic is like the Olympics..
Other shards are trying out for 4 years to get where Atlantic is..
lol anyone whos anyone is now on atl because it has by far the most an best pvpers.
LMAO, ty
Yes it is, yes it is...
(Sorry couldn't help myself)
No, it didn't actually. People were playing primarily Mystic mages with scribe or ninjitsu when the focus spec came out, and they continued to do so for about two years. When Focus spec came out, there was actually a lot of variety in mages than today. The issue was Archery. With 211 stam and splinter disarm weapons, the only choice people had was to pick up wrestle/parry, and that sort of forced them to go with the focus mage route because back then it was very difficult to get enough skill inc to play a mystic wrestle parry mage.
And no, they do not have the best combination of offense and defense "hands down." The only group that they have better offense than is the 15 sdi mages, and that's because they have yet to be given the 20 sdi buff yet. Also, their defense is specifically to survive dexxers/archers, not other mages.
Right, but that doesn't mean their offense needs to be nerfed. Right now non-parry mages are underpowered. They need to be buffed. Removing the tactics requirement will help accomplish that. Again... lowering the offense of focus spec parry mages isn't going to balance the game. It's just going to make people not play them anymore. They're going to play mystic parry mages, or necro parry mages (after the SDI buff).
Is it really hard to grasp what I'm saying? You're ONLY comparing focus mages to 15 sdi mages. You're not looking at the big picture. The big picture is that you can't nerf focus parry mages just because of how they compare to 15 sdi mages. You need to compare them to the other popular templates. They are competitively weak offensively compared to Archers, and on par with dexxers.
Uhhhh... is that a serious question? All of the good archers are playing with it.
Well first off, Holy fist is really all they need tbh. It does 35 dmg every 1.5 seconds; but to answer your question, Nerve Strike, Armor Ignores, Dismounts, Frenzy Whirlwinds, Pixies, Orc Brute, etc. Is that enough? Or do I need to name more?
Poisoning on a parry mage? I don't know a single parry mage that runs with poisoning now a days. What shard do you play again? Siege?
What do you mean? That's exactly what you're doing. You're looking at the spell damage of 15 sdi mages (which are getting buffed in case you haven't heard), and saying that parry focus spec mage sdi needs to be reduced because their offense is better than the 15 sdi mages. I'm the one pointing out that dexxers and archers have better offense than focus spec mages.
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No... maybe you should rethink yoursMaybe those archers should rethink their templates
Lol, you weren't even familiar with bushido archers (which top players have been playing for about a year and a half now) and now you're not even aware of bushido parry holy fisters? Oh man...
And no, it's a dexxer template with the advantage of holy fist. Removing 90 tactics would not unbalance it. They would have to give up weapon damage (on a dexxer) for something else. What else? I can't imagine, but I'm sure the trade-off probably wouldn't even be worth it, let alone OP.
Okay, for everyone here who doesn't understand how balance works, I've made a bar graph to show everyone how "unbalanced" the top templates of discussion are today in regards to template v template offensive/defensive match ups. For all of you who don't pvp, or know the first thing about pvp template building in the year 2016, I've broken some of it down for you. 5 is balanced (for the most part) Anything within a range of 4-6 is semi-competitive, and Above 6 and below 4 is when the balance tips heavily in one sides favor. Here it is:
It's important to note, that this graph is to some degree an over-generalization, and does not claim to be 100% accurate; but is accurate for the most part. Maybe some numbers are off by a decimal or even a whole point, but nothing here is grossly inaccurate. Also, it's important to point out that this graph focuses primarily on the "overall" effectiveness of one template vs another offensive or defensively. It does not focus on the effectiveness of individual abilities; although they are taken into consideration. Also, this graph does not represent all matters of pvp. Again, it focuses specifically on template vs. template offensive/defensive match ups. This can be applied to group fights, but it does not include group utility, tactics, and other major pvp aspect considerations, such as grinder fights where certain templates are better than others. It's also important to note that not all dexxers and archers are the same. I recognize that. The dexxer/archer group was meant to include mainly archers and bushido parry dexxers (holy fisters, dexxer tamers, etc). But to keep the graph simple and read-able i lumped them into one group. Some templates, like the 4/6 chiv dexxer have less offensive ability than an archer, but more defensive ability. Their numbers should more closely reflect the focus parry mages numbers- but to emphasize the rock, scissors, paper, aspect of pvp and again, to keep the graph simple, I had to over-generalize a bit. Also, 15 sdi mages with parry were not included in this, but once the change happens and they are given 20 sdi, they can be included in the category with the other parry mages. 15 sdi mages with mage weapons were not included on the list either. They do not have the offense, nor the defense to be considered a competitive template in today's game (generally speaking).
The reason I uploaded this was to show how nerfing/buffing any of the top templates would affect their viability in template match ups when competing against other top templates. As you can see, it is very competitive, and a simple nerf or buff can be the difference between a template being "viable." A simple buff of 15 sdi parry mages (to 20 sdi) will be the difference of them being competitive or not. A simple sdi nerf to focus parry mages can be the difference of them having the offensive ability to be competitive or not. If needed, I can make another graph that is more specific, and includes the various templates.
It's important to note, that this graph is to some degree an over-generalization, and does not claim to be 100% accurate; but is accurate for the most part. Maybe some numbers are off by a decimal or even a whole point, but nothing here is grossly inaccurate. Also, it's important to point out that this graph focuses primarily on the "overall" effectiveness of one template vs another offensive or defensively. It does not focus on the effectiveness of individual abilities; although they are taken into consideration. Also, this graph does not represent all matters of pvp. Again, it focuses specifically on template vs. template offensive/defensive match ups. This can be applied to group fights, but it does not include group utility, tactics, and other major pvp aspect considerations, such as grinder fights where certain templates are better than others. It's also important to note that not all dexxers and archers are the same. I recognize that. The dexxer/archer group was meant to include mainly archers and bushido parry dexxers (holy fisters, dexxer tamers, etc). But to keep the graph simple and read-able i lumped them into one group. Some templates, like the 4/6 chiv dexxer have less offensive ability than an archer, but more defensive ability. Their numbers should more closely reflect the focus parry mages numbers- but to emphasize the rock, scissors, paper, aspect of pvp and again, to keep the graph simple, I had to over-generalize a bit. Also, 15 sdi mages with parry were not included in this, but once the change happens and they are given 20 sdi, they can be included in the category with the other parry mages. 15 sdi mages with mage weapons were not included on the list either. They do not have the offense, nor the defense to be considered a competitive template in today's game (generally speaking).
The reason I uploaded this was to show how nerfing/buffing any of the top templates would affect their viability in template match ups when competing against other top templates. As you can see, it is very competitive, and a simple nerf or buff can be the difference between a template being "viable." A simple buff of 15 sdi parry mages (to 20 sdi) will be the difference of them being competitive or not. A simple sdi nerf to focus parry mages can be the difference of them having the offensive ability to be competitive or not. If needed, I can make another graph that is more specific, and includes the various templates.
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Nice work on the visual.Okay, for everyone here who doesn't understand how balance works, I've made a bar graph to show everyone how "unbalanced" the top templates of discussion are today in regards to template v template offensive/defensive match ups. For all of you who don't pvp, or know the first thing about pvp template building in the year 2016, I've broken some of it down for you. 5 is balanced (for the most part) Anything within a range of 4-6 is semi-competitive, and Above 6 and below 4 is when the balance tips heavily in one sides favor. Here it is:
It's important to note, that this graph is to some degree an over-generalization, and does not claim to be 100% accurate; but is accurate for the most part. Maybe some numbers are off by a decimal or even a whole point, but nothing here is grossly inaccurate. Also, it's important to point out that this graph focuses primarily on the "overall" effectiveness of one template vs another offensive or defensively. It does not focus on the effectiveness of individual abilities; although they are taken into consideration. Also, this graph does not represent all matters of pvp. Again, it focuses specifically on template vs. template offensive/defensive match ups. This can be applied to group fights, but it does not include group utility, tactics, and other major pvp aspect considerations, such as grinder fights where certain templates are better than others. It's also important to note that not all dexxers and archers are the same. I recognize that. The dexxer/archer group was meant to include mainly archers and bushido parry dexxers (holy fisters, dexxer tamers, etc). But to keep the graph simple and read-able i lumped them into one group. Some templates, like the 4/6 chiv dexxer have less offensive ability than an archer, but more defensive ability. Their numbers should more closely reflect the focus parry mages numbers- but to emphasize the rock, scissors, paper, aspect of pvp and again, to keep the graph simple, I had to over-generalize a bit. Also, 15 sdi mages with parry were not included in this, but once the change happens and they are given 20 sdi, they can be included in the category with the other parry mages. 15 sdi mages with mage weapons were not included on the list either. They do not have the offense, nor the defense to be considered a competitive template in today's game (generally speaking).
The reason I uploaded this was to show how nerfing/buffing any of the top templates would affect their viability when competing against other top templates. As you can see, it is very competitive, and a simple nerf or buff can be the difference between a template being "viable." A simple buff of 15 sdi parry mages (to 20 sdi) will be the difference of them being on this list or not. A simple sdi nerf to focus parry mages can be the difference of them having the offensive ability to be competitive or not. If needed, I can make another graph that is more specific, and includes the various templates.
Just curious, how did you come up with the numbers?
DPS?
Novas are not going off at user location. Need to fix that for further testing.
Atm parry/mages are op in comparison to dexxers, so either their def or off has to be nerfed. I would go with off tho. To any other mage template archers/dexxers are still op so they need a nerf too and they already got some to start with.
Their offense is too good to any other mage template, so people keep playing parry/mages. Overall the parry/mage is op to any dexxer template.
I wouldnt call archers using bushido for the confidence heal good. But maybe thats just me.
These additional offenses all belong to a sw/melee. So holy fist makes him super strong? Cause noone fears a sw/melee.
Yes scribe on a parry/mage. Sure noone runs poisoning, cause everyone found the holy grail alchemy.
Nah. Overall focused parry mages are to strong in offense and defense, especially against dexxers. Thats why they need a nerf and I would prefer it offensively instead if defensively. Only thing i am saying here is people keep playing parry mage instead of other mage templates cause their offense is too high.
They're generalizations of how different templates fare against other templates. No, it's not based exclusively on DPS. I started at 5, with the assumption that everything was balanced, and then looked at each match up and then scaled the points based on which templates had an advantage over another offensively or defensively. It is most certainly subjective to an extent or another, but I have no doubt that it is pretty accurate.
Are you basing this entire ting on yew gate pvp? There is way too many variables to have such hard numbers on a chart. RNG is a big factor in any archer/dexxer template. Casting schools are guaranteed damage if not interrupted, plus other factors like alchemy make a difference in these numbers. What real defense do archers have against parry mages other then running if they wiff too much. I think most of the numbers biased towards what you think in your opinion.Okay, for everyone here who doesn't understand how balance works, I've made a bar graph to show everyone how "unbalanced" the top templates of discussion are today in regards to template v template offensive/defensive match ups. For all of you who don't pvp, or know the first thing about pvp template building in the year 2016, I've broken some of it down for you. 5 is balanced (for the most part) Anything within a range of 4-6 is semi-competitive, and Above 6 and below 4 is when the balance tips heavily in one sides favor. Here it is:
It's important to note, that this graph is to some degree an over-generalization, and does not claim to be 100% accurate; but is accurate for the most part. Maybe some numbers are off by a decimal or even a whole point, but nothing here is grossly inaccurate. Also, it's important to point out that this graph focuses primarily on the "overall" effectiveness of one template vs another offensive or defensively. It does not focus on the effectiveness of individual abilities; although they are taken into consideration. Also, this graph does not represent all matters of pvp. Again, it focuses specifically on template vs. template offensive/defensive match ups. This can be applied to group fights, but it does not include group utility, tactics, and other major pvp aspect considerations, such as grinder fights where certain templates are better than others. It's also important to note that not all dexxers and archers are the same. I recognize that. The dexxer/archer group was meant to include mainly archers and bushido parry dexxers (holy fisters, dexxer tamers, etc). But to keep the graph simple and read-able i lumped them into one group. Some templates, like the 4/6 chiv dexxer have less offensive ability than an archer, but more defensive ability. Their numbers should more closely reflect the focus parry mages numbers- but to emphasize the rock, scissors, paper, aspect of pvp and again, to keep the graph simple, I had to over-generalize a bit. Also, 15 sdi mages with parry were not included in this, but once the change happens and they are given 20 sdi, they can be included in the category with the other parry mages. 15 sdi mages with mage weapons were not included on the list either. They do not have the offense, nor the defense to be considered a competitive template in today's game (generally speaking).
The reason I uploaded this was to show how nerfing/buffing any of the top templates would affect their viability in template match ups when competing against other top templates. As you can see, it is very competitive, and a simple nerf or buff can be the difference between a template being "viable." A simple buff of 15 sdi parry mages (to 20 sdi) will be the difference of them being competitive or not. A simple sdi nerf to focus parry mages can be the difference of them having the offensive ability to be competitive or not. If needed, I can make another graph that is more specific, and includes the various templates.
Parry mages are OP in comparison to dexxers? Not at all. Not for nothing man, you didn't even know about bushido archers or bushido parry holy fisters. Kind of hard to assert that mages are OP when you don't know the top dexxer/archer templates out there, wouldn't you agree?
Again, they're not OP to dexxers, I kill them on my dexxers all of the time. And their offense might be better than other mages (not dexxers), but that doesn't mean they need to be nerfed. Other mages need to be buffed.
Don't take this the wrong way man, but you just found out today that they were playing with it... Lol. How would you know? They use bushido and the mastery, and when confidence doesn't get disrupted, it's powerful as hell. That's a third way to heal on top of potions and bandages. If you think it isn't good it's because you're not familiar with it. No offense.
Yes, 35 damage every 1.5 seconds from range that doesn't miss is pretty powerful. You throw armor ignores, frenzy whirlwinds, orc brute, etc etc on top of that, and it's a pretty powerful template. You should look it up man.
Poisoning on a mage was gone long before people started using alchemy. People were playing with 50 EP without alchemy. That is easily enough to cure deadly poison (the highest level poison attainable by casting the poison spell).
That's not the reason... it's the survivability.
Yes... the majority of this is based on the notion that people have the option of running. If you pay attention when you log in game, the vast majority of fights take place in a place where someone can run if they need to. And yes, I took into consideration skills like alchemy. There may be many circumstances than could influence a fight, but ceterus paribus (all things being equal), these are the advantages/disadvantages that these templates have over each other (generally speaking).
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Thanks for your time this evening Bleak. Did we make any head way with any adjustments?
Yes, it absolutely is!
The average player wants a Damage-Tank-Healer in one character.
The average player does not understand, that there has to be a trade-off between offense and defense.
People always claim, that UO is so diverse, because it doesn't force your character into a specific class.
In the end the majority of players sticks with a handful of certain working templates (classes in other MMOs) with minor differences in skill loadout (talents & perks in other MMOs).
I honestly question that diversity big time.
So everyone playing with the same Damage-Tank-"Template of the month" might also be some sort of balance. But if that is the balance, which makes UO more interesting and enjoyable is doubtful.
Who says i dont about Bushido Archers or Bushido Fisters? I just said i wouldnt call Bushdio/Archers good cause they use the maybe most effective template. I have my own ideas that way and maybe think different. But if you think Parry/Mages arent OP to dexxers 1 vs 1 wise, I stop arguing here, because its no use.
There are no such thing as a bushido fister... you should stop arguing because you have zero idea what you're speaking about. You continue to display that everytime you speak.
In Testing: Combat Changes, Doom Artifact Upgrade – Ultima Online
Here is the most updated list of changes
Not my words, Revan called it Bushido Parry Fister. I would call it Melee Holy Fister or Melee Bushido Fister and I know at least one.
Currently UO pvp has bokuto parry SW fisters (Could be called bushido fister I suppose), Wrestle parry SW fisters, Alchy ninja parry fisters, the list goes on and on really. It is one of the most abused templates currently on Atlantic. I have no issue with it to be honest. In a 1v1 situation, I have no issues with these players and in a team setting, as long as you're equally matched, it shouldn't be much of an issue outside of syncs with holy fist and they cannot cross heal very well outside of remove curse and the once every 30 minutes rejuvenate spell from chiv mastery. However, I can see why everyone hates these templates as they require zero skill and very few macros to operate well.
Thanks for pointing me the right direction!
@Bleak Any insight on the above?
There's 3 people that use this with any sort of success... The rest die miserably trying it. The disarm / splinter was the nerf they wanted to be made. Which I don't even agree with either and that doesn't benefit me in any way whatsoever. Splinter is a hit spell the same as Hit harm or Hit lower D. The stack currently and that is why they spawn less frequently and cost an arm and a leg.
@PaithanTheElf Bleak did ask about force walk last night while I was there. I suggested that splinter should only do one or the other when used. Either it bleeds and doesn't force walk, or force walks and doesn't bleed. I believe he took down the information but didn't say anything about changes to it.
Rofl , paithan are u high?
Just because your buddy uses focus attack to go for splinter without any specials u want to ruin splinter for the 99% of the dexers?
Please hide in a corner
Rofl guys, what are you talking about? Splinter disarm is being removed. Stop crying about everything. It's embarassing
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Personally I never understood why they went through all the effort to nerf the wakazashi slow, which costs mana to use, but they left splintering alone. And splintering is a double effect. I was against the waki nerf, still am. But I can agree with what a pain splintering is. I think is should be something that can be removed via apple... just like sleep. Or it should be reduced to a 2-3 second slow just like the Waki was.
In order to use splinter you're giving up something on your wep, be it lower D or something. If you're playing a mage and using a splinter wep, you're giving up parry and defense. The reason the OP brought splintering up is because they get demolished whenever they fight a mage with splintering, not a dexer. That's all that is. Keep in mind, that person plays a fister, ninja, SW character on the field currently... Complaining about something being OP when you field that template is laughable to say the least.
If you have noticed, I've not tried to get anything nerfed at all. Not even that weak ****** template. I've actually tried getting the SDI cap for mages, the archer changes reverted to the original changes and get the nova's left alone. I've tried to keep pvp the real focus here and get decent changes made. I've been at TC testing with @Bleak trying to find compromises. I'm here for the greater good, not to try to nerf things that I feel can cause me issues.
Let's do some nerfing:
1) shields disarmable
2) holy fist NOT working with wrestling
3) focus attack not applying for splintering ( u can bring a 30% splintering weapon to 60!!!!!)
Ciao
1) shields disarmable
2) holy fist NOT working with wrestling
3) focus attack not applying for splintering ( u can bring a 30% splintering weapon to 60!!!!!)
Ciao
I thought it was a "balancing" not a 360 degrees nerfing thread
The delay is a half second as of yesterday and is at the user's location.
There are no additional changes planned for splintering at this time.
I will be on TC later today. Be sure to check out the latest notes that are available for testing on TC.
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