In concept - Virtue vs Vice

[Prime.]

Hello!

I just wanted to comment that a friend and I were thinking about returning, however, with this new system and the removal of factions neither of us will be coming back until we know for sure that factions are staying and this system isn't replacing it.

Factions currently aren't terrible the way they are, however, they could be improved, and with less work then scrapping them entirely and introducing this whole new system. I think the biggest issue with factions, felucca, champ spawns, right now is the current state of PvP, and the downward spiral of this games population. Not to mention the hundreds of freeshards with thousands of players out there, and let me tell you, yes, factions are very still very active there.

I'd recommend just adding in this system and improving factions, but I really just don't see this system being very successful either way, non-pvpers won't join because it's PvP, and of all the pvpers I've seen posting in this thread, all but one are telling you to implement it and remove factions.

There's better and more fun appealing PvP systems out there.

Capture the Flag is one I'd really look into if I were a dev.

 

[Viquire]

Personally I think that could work even more.. Lord Blackthorn is evil and so technically Chaos rules right now.. Surely Order would want to fight back

Chaos itself is not evil, it is the absence of Law, or legalism and could be seen as a state where volunteerism holds sway.
Law is the strict adherence to a set of proscribed beliefs and behaviors typically as administered by a central authority.
And before I step off the pier into the deep waters of politics I will close with the observation that a VvV system is much more in line with good vs evil, as exhibited in almost all the Ultima games from IV on.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Not sure who to reply to here, saw the idea fly by and forgot to respond immediately.

Blackthorn's never been evil save in the LBR era. The original storyline of the LBR era was that Blackthorn, due to his selfish, class-based nobleman's sensibilities and the weaknesses in his philosophy turned evil and assisted Exodus. They have since ret-conned it to be that Blackthorn went to challenge Exodus, got caught by Exodus instead, and the robotic "Borg" Blackthorn was sent in place of the real one.

If you read Blackthorn's books you'll see that he was never evil. Chaos was in essence a counter-weight, an alternative good system.

The old Order/Chaos system always bothered me from a fictional perspective (the 2 main guys play chess while their followers slaughter each other in what amounts to street gang activity), and from a PvP perspective it was only pretty recently that people started talking about how great it was. I had read nothing but bad things about it until pretty recent years. When it was active I kept reading about how it was full of inferior PvPers, when it was used at all.

Rose-colored hindsight, or the tendency of UO players to say nothing when they are happy and assume their silence will correctly be interpreted by the team? (An assumption that's never to my knowledge been proven right.)

On GL, Blackthorn as played by our shard's Event Moderators won over my character with his seriousness, competence, and sincerity.

"Why does Galen the Trammie keep posting in this thread?" Note that I deliberately have avoided talking about the system itself. It's very unlikely that I'll use it. Instead I've argued against moving the system outside of Felucca, which'd be a bad move; I've attempted to correct the incidental error (such as in this post); and I've tried to highlight the degree to which there's really no uniformity of opinion at all on this system.

-Galen's player

 

[PJay]

Hello!

I just wanted to comment that a friend and I were thinking about returning, however, with this new system and the removal of factions neither of us will be coming back until we know for sure that factions are staying and this system isn't replacing it.

Factions currently aren't terrible the way they are, however, they could be improved, and with less work then scrapping them entirely and introducing this whole new system. I think the biggest issue with factions, felucca, champ spawns, right now is the current state of PvP, and the downward spiral of this games population. Not to mention the hundreds of freeshards with thousands of players out there, and let me tell you, yes, factions are very still very active there.

I'd recommend just adding in this system and improving factions, but I really just don't see this system being very successful either way, non-pvpers won't join because it's PvP, and of all the pvpers I've seen posting in this thread, all but one are telling you to implement it and remove factions.

There's better and more fun appealing PvP systems out there.

Capture the Flag is one I'd really look into if I were a dev.

Factions has some serious problems and issues from the way this concept has been conceived i would say the dev team cant fix factions maybe cant deal with the old code i don't know. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't embark on a project as bold as this if they could repair factions.

The faction system is a version of capture the flag (sigil) and it will never be played as it was intended because there simply isn't enough people interested in pvp.

We should not have two systems in an area of the game where players are sparse. The proposed Vice & Virtue system (I hate the name btw) is essentially what factions is currently like (killing the opposing faction) however in this case there will only be 2 teams. This means players who wish to join this system will be part of a much larger faction than is currently possible. It will also remove stat loss which seems to scare trammies half to death.

 

[PJay]

I haven't read everything, but I got a good gist of what is being proposed.


STUFF

• If said crafters need to belong to a V/V guild, then so be it. Wouldn't it be nice to give a crafter the opportunity to be Neutral, serving both aspects? Now wouldn't that be interesting if a crafter got caught contributing to both sides?

PVP

• • Your stuff? Gone. Go see your V/V crafter for new gear by the next scheduled instance time!

Some ideas were ok i suppose but you went and spoiled it all by saying something stupid like you love Crafters..... Sing along song!

Crafters have enough to do right now i don't understand why they need more to do and besides this do you think today's pvpers don't have crafters?

And remove the horses they are from a bygone era it looks like more will be implemented for this so why keep trash? this game keeps more and more trash every time we publish why do people insist on keeping things?

 

[Cetric]

visiting back and ran across this.

cool sounding system for the most part. Would be nice to somehow eliminate the ability of non virtue/vice players interfering with the battle. would also be nice if there was a third side somehow, to bring on 3-way battles. but in the story concept of it i'm not sure what that 3rd party would be.

wonder when something like this will creep into the game

 

[Lynxeuropa]

only just seen this

do not like the idea of scrapping existing system
lore etc was quiet good, open to any improvements though

like the idea of damage increase debuffs for dieing!
and stat reduction for being a traitor, sometimes need to kill traitors during base defenses but its something worth thinking about

Hq decend/attack fights are a must in my humble opinion

need some form of rewards as current system is pretty dead on europa, used to live to play factions back in the day

currently quit uo due to pretty dull pvp, dismount ganks and lame new healing spells that seem overpowered

 

[CaptainLu]

2. Offer a sufficient level of gear that allows playing multiple shards to find the fight on whichever shard it may be occurring on.

If I understand correctly then, Gear ( I am assuming basic/not overpowerful) will be provided for use in the system. I do not really have any opposition to pvp in and of itself, I am a player that could potentially be interested in participating in your new pvp system. I would have to say my reluctance generally comes down to not being sure if it will cost me so much to pvp that my pvm progress will grind to a halt.

I understand risk vs reward, but I am not that great at pvp so I am not expecting much in the way of reward starting off. So just to confirm, if you are saying I can at least come check it out and not be left broke then I will probably check it out. I would hope others would too, when I first started playing factions came out not shortly afterwards and it was alot of fun (though replacing gear was as easy as having a gm crafter, not so much nowadays and I dont have the built up fortune some of you have so I have to be careful about how often I die until I have some decent ingame income opportunities

 

[morPR]

I honestly dont' get it. UO removed Order & Chaos guilds years ago but never replaced it. Now there's talk of scrapping factions? Isn't this the only reason people have to fight in Fel? Personally I think if its a new content AND its called "Virtue or Vice" then it should be held in Illsh. YES, I'm suggesting make a "Trammel" rule-set shard a PVP shard! I was absolutely shocked that when I went to Yew Fel Gate there was heavy faction fighting going on and I was just an observer. I realized I stank at PVP because the one red there killed me and I couldn't attack any of the faction guys because they weren't orange and I didn't want any murder counts.

In my defense I"ve played since Ren and have since then embraced the new arena system having been to a handful of duels. It just irks the heck out of me when people on general chat spam with "OH! I wanted 1 v 1 but you and your friends ganked me!" Want a fair fight? Go to the damn areans, and I mean NOW! Otherwise, don't pollute my gaming experience with your illogical rants.

 

[CaptainLu]

Wow ilsh has pretty thick spawns, cant say that would be my first choice for an additional pvp area. I would be fine with malas being pvp outside the towns tho. It is a complete waste of space and has no use so someone should be able to get some enjoyment out of what is essentially a housing server

 

[CaptainLu]

Srry very slight ranty content, but Im fine, just always hated malas it is so empty. Everytime I try to wander around there I regret wasting my time

 

[Zosimus]

The issue with Factions was stated back when Cal was the producer. Did everybody forget? The dak cloud comment Basically the system was borked by then.

Faction items can be earned by just killing another character in an opposing faction. Well with players with mutiple accounts that didn't really want to PvP could just use the other accounts toons and join a different faction. Go kill them and gain points to get arties that they have trouble getting in PvE.

If you all want factions just a scrap the items that go with it. Suppose to be about the PvP right? Not how leet your suit is and your pixel shinies that make a player superior. If having to PvE to get items to PvP then go PvE and or buy your items. Just be in a plain old faction and represent your e-thug life and roll people.

Nothing wrong with implementing a new system. Something has to change. PvP in UO is not what it was and at least this isn't a way of luring the lambs to the wolves system. Unless it involves new shinies that the PvE'rs wan't and will cry foul because they have to PvP to keep them. Oh wait look at the loop hole above. You can do the same as the faction system with mutiple acounts. It will be alright in the end

UNLESS.......

They make the new shinies fel only ( can be only used in fel) and bam!!!Tthe posts will begin how unfair that fel get items and other facets cant It's not about skill, it's about what you have and in the end that what's it is all about!

 

[Martell]

The issue with Factions was stated back when Cal was the producer. Did everybody forget? The dak cloud comment Basically the system was borked by then.

Faction items can be earned by just killing another character in an opposing faction. Well with players with mutiple accounts that didn't really want to PvP could just use the other accounts toons and join a different faction. Go kill them and gain points to get arties that they have trouble getting in PvE.

If you all want factions just a scrap the items that go with it. Suppose to be about the PvP right? Not how leet your suit is and your pixel shinies that make a player superior. If having to PvE to get items to PvP then go PvE and or buy your items. Just be in a plain old faction and represent your e-thug life and roll people.

Nothing wrong with implementing a new system. Something has to change. PvP in UO is not what it was and at least this isn't a way of luring the lambs to the wolves system. Unless it involves new shinies that the PvE'rs wan't and will cry foul because they have to PvP to keep them. Oh wait look at the loop hole above. You can do the same as the faction system with mutiple acounts. It will be alright in the end

UNLESS.......

They make the new shinies fel only ( can be only used in fel) and bam!!!Tthe posts will begin how unfair that fel get items and other facets cant It's not about skill, it's about what you have and in the end that what's it is all about!

Factions is about PVP. The appeal of the factions arties, at their original cost and almost infinite lifespan, was that they allowed pvpers to build and suit characters on multiple shards. That was in my mind the best part of factions. Stat is also a nice perk of factions but for me at least the real nice thing about factions was that it allowed for pvping on multiple shards.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Factions is about PVP. The appeal of the factions arties, at their original cost and almost infinite lifespan, was that they allowed pvpers to build and suit characters on multiple shards. That was in my mind the best part of factions. Stat is also a nice perk of factions but for me at least the real nice thing about factions was that it allowed for pvping on multiple shards.

The best part of Factions was something that was added many years after it was started?

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

They make the new shinies fel only ( can be only used in fel) and bam!!!Tthe posts will begin how unfair that fel get items and other facets cant It's not about skill, it's about what you have and in the end that what's it is all about!

I, for one, never complained about Faction Artifacts only being available from Felucca play after people argued, against all reality, that there was nothing available in Fel that wasn't available on Trammel. Faction Artifacts were on the list of things that proved that wrong. And now that I think about it I'm one of the few who dares to point out this obvious fact.

The current system actually somewhat mirrors what you have proposed. The Artifacts are useable in Trammel but are ephemeral there, whereas they are invulnerable in Felucca save that they are subject to a timer everyplace.

And we've seen the reactions.

-Galen's player

 

[Zosimus]

No matter what the devs decide there will be unhappy people either way.

 

[Bianca_CoD]

Dear Mesanna,

I read 5 pages of posts on this thread before its descended into madness and I have sent you plenty of my thoughts personally. Now I want to address the general public with my thoughts and ideas on this subject.

Firstly, for years I played a character named Blasphemy on Catskills with our sister guild and I was part of the Minax faction and enjoyed PvP shortly after the release of UO:R. I was red, blue, white, green, gray, yellow... all colors. I even had two Blasphemy's... a perma red and my factions character. After a few years of the release of Trammel, we saw a slow painful death to PvP as we knew it. We quit the game... for 8 years before coming back in 2010. In our return, we have stayed strictly in Trammel.

To say that my opinion on this matter doesn't count or that I shouldn't give my ideas or suggestions because I currently do not engage in PvP is the entire problem with why folks do not venture into Felucca. You shun the very people that would engage in PvP but wish it to be more meaningful. Just the fact that we so called "Trammies" are taking time to reply here shows that we do indeed have some interest in PvP and the way that it should be implemented per our own opinions. If I see something I like, I may dust Blasphemy off and re-engage. But not if you are all got your foot on my neck. So how about showing some respect in that regard? Believe me, if you let it, this system may bring back players to fight you which is what you want. It could affect all of us!

Now... I am going to separate my ideas into: What I Love & What I Hate. Then I am going to give some suggestions.

WHAT I LOVE
- Love love love that you are trying to make it more about territorial wars.
- Love that you are centering it around the Virtues.
- Love that you are removing faction artifacts.
- Love that its limited to one character per account, (hopefully?) per shard.
- Love that you are "load-balancing" the sides.
- Love that a "side" is claiming territory that others have to take.
- Love that winning a battle gives the winning team a buff.
- Love that it takes winning the majority of the 8 shrines to be granted rewards.
- Love that Chaos is the tie breaker.

WHAT I HATE
- Hate that you are removing the current 4 factions!
- Hate that you are planning to remove the faction forts; its not needed.
- Hate that you are planning to add back in "pvp armor".
- Hate that you are planning to add encampments; its not needed.
- Hate that you are planning to remove the war horses.
- Hate that there is no clear defined role for thieves/stealthers.
- Hate that players can just resurrect (even with this wounded debuff) and re-enter fights.
- Hate that you are planning on giving losers a concessional buff.
- Hate to think that you could still gain points just for killing a rival faction player.
- Hate the whole "timer" thing to battles. Leave the strategy to the players.


MY SUGGESTIONS

KEEP FACTIONS --- I think factions can be reworked into this system without dropping the 4 sides that are currently in place. I do not like that you are making this into a 2-sided fight. I love the lore and history that Minax, Council of Mages, True Britannians, and the Shadowlords bring to Ultima Online and would really be hard-pressed to loose that. I don't believe that folks should loose their war horses, those pets have became as loved as houses have for others.

GET RID OF PVP ARMOR FROM VENDORS --- I have always been against "pvp armor"... I feel you should take advantage of the armor that is created by faction smiths, tailors, carpenters, alchemists, imbuers, etc. etc. give THEM something to be part of in PvP. NO VENDORS. CRAFTED ITEMS ONLY! Special faction-only recipes that can be granted as rewards for winning battles to random faction members much in the way that we get power scrolls from spawns. Even special imbuing stats that are only available to factions would ROCK! SIEGE WEAPONRY would also ROCK! Cannons, trebuchets, ballistas, oil cauldrons, etc. Add things like that.

FORGET ENCAMPMENTS, REDESIGN THE CITIES --- You already have the Virtue system in place to support this; Cities are already attuned to each Virtue, they are Virtue cities. Why not use the cities themselves? BLOW UP the cities as they are today and redesign them to be more like "Forts". Britain will remain a city in Trammel, the former Britain would be known as Fort of Compassion (for example). Claiming that Fort takes a faction to be the only one within its walls, walls that slowly upgrade as a faction holds on to it longer, upgradable guards and doors.

KEEP THE SIGNUP LOCATIONS AT THE FACTION FORTS --- Why loose this historical place for each of the factions? Makes no sense. Allow faction members to put up vendors that sell their wares at these locations, much in the same way that we have the vendors in New Magincia. You already have the support for this type of function, re-use it.

GIVE THIEFS/STEALTHERS ACTIVE JOBS IN BATTLES --- Stealthers and thieves need to have clear jobs at the battles. Guards will give them a focus. Rival guards should carry keys to inner doors of the keeps. Stealthing and backstabbing to kill these guards should be primary; stealing the keys from inner guards can give thieves a purpose. Keys can open doors or lower drawbridges or even disable siege weaponry. So much could be done to give them a purpose! Think outside of the box.

RESURRECTION SHOULD BE HARD --- If you die, you should be in a 50% stat loss for a period of 30 minutes. No joke! If you aren't skilled enough to take a keep without dying, you probably shouldn't be there. I really don't want to see fights that last 8 hours... I liked them in the past when I was younger and didn't have to be in bed by 11 pm to get up for work. An attack on a keep should be a few hours, but not endless.

CONCESSION NOTHING --- If you loose, you loose. Period end of story. Try again.

NO PERSONAL POINTS; REWARD POINTS ONLY --- Get rid of personal points, people find ways to cheat that way. Instead award points for successfully defending your faction's fort or for successfully attacking and re-claiming a rival fort.

LOOSE TIMERS, LEAVE IT TO PLAYERS --- Let them be strategic in what forts they attack and when. A fort could upon completed claiming open a moongate that is available to the faction members that own the fort, accessible through the UI or through the moongates or hell bring back the MOON STONES (faction imbuers could make them!) So that if you attack a fort, there will be people pouring in to defend it. Believe me, you won't even have to go anywhere to find ppl to fight!


I reserve the right to add to this list later on.


~ Sue.

Lady Bianca Solderini, Guardian of the Children of Darkness
Ariana Erikkson, Governor of Minoc, Regional President of the Trade and Commerce Commission of Minoc
Blasphemy, Notorious Murderess, Followers of Minax

 

[Bianca_CoD]

Factions is about PVP. The appeal of the factions arties, at their original cost and almost infinite lifespan, was that they allowed pvpers to build and suit characters on multiple shards. That was in my mind the best part of factions. Stat is also a nice perk of factions but for me at least the real nice thing about factions was that it allowed for pvping on multiple shards.

Easily fixable by having faction crafters make armor for you as I stated in my post. You could have as many characters are you want in every shard if you want because faction crafters make the best gear! Faction character copies could be something... if you are in a faction, faction crafters can make you a special token for faction character copies. You of course loose your guild affiliation but keep your faction affiliation. Wouldn't it be cool if thieves were able to steal special ingredients that are used to make those tokens from like "captain" guards in rival keeps? Ohhh the beauty of that!

~ Sue.

 

[Ox AO]

Factions is getting deleted a system more closely resembling Chaos Order is being worked on. It is all very vagueat this time

 

[Bianca_CoD]

Factions is getting deleted a system more closely resembling Chaos Order is being worked on. It is all very vagueat this time

It is just in concept, with the amount of feedback on this thread I sincerely hope they don't just X factions out. Too many people are against that. I personally would be very very sad if they did that after this long thread of feedback.

~ Sue.

 

[Promathia]

It is just in concept, with the amount of feedback on this thread I sincerely hope they don't just X factions out. Too many people are against that. I personally would be very very sad if they did that after this long thread of feedback.

~ Sue.

Yes, shame if they delete Factions, since SOOOOO many people use it. Lets keep trying to fix a system that has been underused and broken for YEARS instead of doing something new.

 

[Bianca_CoD]

Yes, shame if they delete Factions, since SOOOOO many people use it. Lets keep trying to fix a system that has been underused and broken for YEARS instead of doing something new.

I don't think you understand that if its broken now, that it could be fixed in an overhaul. I am not talking about loosing the GAME MECHANICS of factions, which you are right about, I am talking about loosing the lore and history of factions. It can be taken into a new system without having to loose a lot of the things that we have come to love about it. Look over my ideas and suggestions!

~ Sue.

 

[Ox AO]

I don't think you understand that if its broken now, that it could be fixed in an overhaul. I am not talking about loosing the GAME MECHANICS of factions, which you are right about, I am talking about loosing the lore and history of factions. It can be taken into a new system without having to loose a lot of the things that we have come to love about it. Look over my ideas and suggestions!

~ Sue.

Factions was broken by its very foundation of not being able to control your own faction
Winning and controlling a town should have meant to actually control the town.
This governors concept is for a Republic type system or sim city not for a Monarchy based game


It was a great idea but implemented very poorly.

 

[Bianca_CoD]

Factions was broken by its very foundation of not being able to control your own faction
Winning and controlling a town should have meant to actually control the town.
This governors concept is for a Republic type system or sim city not for a Monarchy based game


It was a great idea but implemented very poorly.

Again, mechanics-wise there was a lot wrong with Factions I agree with you there... but I am talking about the lore behind factions --- the lore of the Followers of Minax, the Shadowlords, the Council of Mages, and the True Britannians. This lore can be reused in a new way that still gives us 4 rival factions and keeps the lore behind them.

I like the idea of territorial wars, which is why I suggested what I suggested --- making the Feluccan cities function more like FORTS which can be controlled by their claiming faction and there are perks to upgrading the fort and so on. Making the faction forts more usable for faction merchants is a system that is already in place in New Magincia, just updated to have a check for the corresponding faction.

I feel the problem with PvP has been the gear, I feel like crafters were shafted in Factions when the itemization happened and players were given access to artifact-quality items. Crafters had no place and that needs to change. Let's PvP the old fashion way, with faction GM-crafted gear. Sure add in special faction recipes that promote crafters joining factions and viable stats that correspond to PvP abilities.

It just needs a complete overhaul, but for me I just would not like to loose the 4 factions and their lore --- I could care less about the factions mechanics, it sucks donkey _ _ _ _ _!


~ Sue.

 

[jill]

Hello All,

I've never had a character strong enough for pvp but i have played a little while (12 yrs) in the game and understand its concept. I like your idea above about the Virtue vs Vice but would it be possible to take it a step further..
Step 1: You place a Virtue and Vice moongate in Fel someplace. This will allow entry to a global world where all shards can play together as Virtue or Vice in combat.

Step 2: Each Virtue / Vice guild has several home cities in this completely different world in which they occupy and around those players can create a subguild comprised of their own players.

Step 3: Housing here is based on the size of the players subguild.. ex.. a player guild of 1-4 can place or occupy a small home, 5-10 a cabin sized home, 11-35, 36-70 ect. Should a guild grow or shrink, their guildhouse changes and its belongings placed into player named crates to be unloaded. Basically players have a 3 crate limit per guildhouse. Except the guildmaster.. he has a 6 crate limit and can also grant 3 additional crates to 3 other members for storage for leadership advantage.

Step 4: Subguilds are allowed to purchase a special bulletin board for their homes that informs of Virtue or Vice attacks.

Step 5: I would also add npc Virtue and Vice combatants to this world as well as special monsters that represent each.. depicted as violet or orange bars.

Step 6: The ability to finance roads and remove trees in this world would come from an all elected Virtue or Vice leader from the nearest town (in all each Virtue/Vice is ruled by a trifecta ruling *thats 3 persons*)

Basically a new uo war era would be born into the game. haha

Just trying to open the box a little and burn brains

Love Yas,

Jill

 

[Draxous]

Will we again see overpowered Virtue & Vice gear, that can be used vs non Virtue & Vice and will hurt the community on Siege and hurt the way PvP'ers depent of crafters.
I'm really worried, Siege almost died last faction items was overpowered vs crafted items, it splitted the shard in 2 groups, and the non faction group gave up PvP'ing, gave up fighting back when attacked of red faction players.
I'm not sure this will be good for Siege if we are getting this nw Virtue & Vice items.

The problem on Siege is that it has loot tables designed for production shard item insurance. Want a crystalline ring? Good luck playing that lotto. It's a really poor concept for a shard that is mean to use and lose items readily. Only the best of the best of the best run this kind of gear. Being that they're already that good to be able to rock it, the advantage these items give is compounded. The system is flawed.

The players on Siege that are decent at PvP, equip and outgear and are overpowered compared to the people you express concern for anyway. Faction items did nothing to change that.

What would be good for Siege is better loot drops across the board and a plethora of resources for crafters to craft, craft, craft with. Handicapping things by dummying it down is just ridiculous. Every new item they introduce will automatically be over powered and just like always, the great pvpers will use them while most of the shard runs around with mongbat loot and the hiding/stealth skills.

I really hate the naive crying about items. This game went down the AoS road 11 years ago. It's time we stopped trying to make Siege super duper special and requiring exponential amounts of developer time to bandaid the perma-broken system. Either they fix loot and resources across the board or just enjoy the disparity. It has nothing to do with the items existing. Has everything to do with average players not having proper access to those items.

Thanks.

 

[Draxous]

Factions was never broken. The problem with factions is that it's 13 years old. The armchair critics in this thread apparently never actually played factions or witnessed some of the most epic UO player battles ever to touch this game. Here's a tribute to factions and the days where 24 hour sigil defense was no joke.



I really did not enjoy reading this thread. The feedback is a garbled mess and I sincerely hope the developers use this system to address the gaps in this game. The pvp/non-pvp segregation and thus disconnection from the game. The I got a splintering weapon that cost 1billion gold, now I'm awesome at PvP. Nevermind practice or experience. Item = win. The non-pvper abuse. You either participate or you don't. No in between. The outdated content (keep going with the revamps!)

I absolutely loath the pvp commentary from players who have no real pvp experience.

Oh God Bless it.

 

[Draxous]

Dear Developers,

Please heavily consider incorporating the following concepts into your idea.

1. Immersion. A long time ago, there used to be overworld PvP, chaos and order (C&O), and factions as vehicles of PvP. C&O in conception allowed people to pvp in guardzones where aggressive magic spells did not work. It also was the only pvp found in trammel. It opened up the world to PvPers. Long gone are the times where people expect to encounter random conflict while playing. Sans Siege Perilous, everything is consentual. Sign up for the arena and PvP. It's no wonder most pvpers log in and head to yew gate for some fun. It's the corner you've painted players into at the request of a very loud group who doesn't share interest or concern for the well being of the other. Therefore, I propose taking the best pieces of the past systems and fusing them into this virtue and vice. Stitch up the torn apart community. Allow those who are vice (red) full access to the world, save perhaps trammel. Restrict them so that they cannot hurt those who do no participate in virtue. Now this will cause that previously mentioned group to complain about only wanting to participate here and there. Well design that option too, but restrict it's participation to felucca only. This will be fair and equitable. If you want to participate in conflict outside of fel, then you must commit full time. If you just want to dabble, then you have to come into the wilderness (felucca.)

This will restrict murder and non-consentual PvP to felucca only, while allowing people to play the full range of this game and pvp full time (like we used to in C&O.) Please, please, please stitch up this torn community.

2. Immersion. PvE event content is everywhere. PvP event content is controversial and neglected due to the fact. To get around keeping out the non-combatant event fans, tie the two together. So you don't keep out combatant event fans! Cast the widest nets you people can! A long time ago, we put together the event arc where who controlled the factions, helped determine the champ spawns in the faction cities. Tie PvP to the events you do, even if in a small way. Or go BIG. Hold epic battles in felucca that set trammel down one path or another (both equally awesome so the fun is just fun). Get your staff and player communities together and really make this game immersive.

Please, please, please tailor most content to all playstyles and keep the fixation on one or another minimal. (Ironic in a thread about the PvP overhaul - I know.)

3. Immersion. Please continue to revamp content. Fantastic job, guys. With #1, the new dungeons get even more interesting. Revamp everything. If you fix the loot tables on Siege, you could bring them in line with what you're doing on prodo shards. Revamp the economy. Consider currency conversion (maybe open the topic).

EDIT: Please do not allow reds into guardzones in tram rulesets. I did not mention, but this allows for the idea of dumping the feluccan t2a and revamp/re-place champ spawns elsewhere spicing up the world.

Thanks,
Draxous

 

[Great DC]

I don't know if anyone has hit on the fact that you can quit the new system instantly. SO what keeps people from quitting before they die in a fight to avoid wounded status. Then they can just grief the rest of the fight as a non vice player. I think the faction system in place is fine if its fixed properly. Just have o go through it and remove the parts of it that people exploit and it'll work out just fine. maybe limit stat loss to ten minutes instead of twenty and youll get more participants. Lets be honest if people didn't exploit the point system this conversation wouldn't even exist

 

[FrejaSP]

What would be good for Siege is better loot drops across the board and a plethora of resources for crafters to craft, craft, craft with. Handicapping things by dummying it down is just ridiculous. Every new item they introduce will automatically be over powered and just like always, the great pvpers will use them while most of the shard runs around with mongbat loot and the hiding/stealth skills.

At least we do agree about something

 

[Tina Small]

I don't know if anyone has hit on the fact that you can quit the new system instantly. SO what keeps people from quitting before they die in a fight to avoid wounded status. Then they can just grief the rest of the fight as a non vice player. I think the faction system in place is fine if its fixed properly. Just have o go through it and remove the parts of it that people exploit and it'll work out just fine. maybe limit stat loss to ten minutes instead of twenty and youll get more participants. Lets be honest if people didn't exploit the point system this conversation wouldn't even exist

It took a lot of digging to find Kyronix's replies in this thread which kind of address the points you raised (see material in quotation marks in the bulleted list below). Puzzling through his replies and the original post, my impression is that the battlefield area(s) will be located somewhere separate from the rest of Felucca and that only Virtue and Vice members will be able to enter that/those area(s) (via some unknown mechanism). As a result, it seems reasonable to me that if you quit the Virtue or Vice side in the middle of a battle, you would be automatically ejected to someplace outside of the battlefield area but would still be subject to the wounded status debuff until it wears off.

• First of all, don't forget that if you quit, you can't rejoin for 7 days, unless you move your character to another shard. In that case, you can apparently rejoin immediately. (Details are from the first post in the thread.)
• "The idea is that your incoming damage will be buffed, for example, if you under normal circumstances were to take 20 damage, if you were wounded you would take 25 etc etc." [http://stratics.com/community/threads/in-concept-virtue-vs-vice.301505/page-5#post-2289991]
• Regarding how long it takes for the wounded debuff to wear off and where will it apply: "Long enough to be an effective deterrent but not so long as to become a burden. It will apply anywhere...that's the trade off for free top level gear. "
• "We are looking at providing a solution to this by centering battles in a mirrored area of the shrine....something along the lines of you go to a shrine, then head to the battleground area. This allows us to both deal with housing in the area that could complicate things, as well as provide different areas for battle with varying landscapes and other natural features...which of course makes for a more fun fighting experience." [http://stratics.com/community/threads/in-concept-virtue-vs-vice.301505/page-5#post-2290017]
• "Doing anything in the existing over world of this magnitude results in having to deal with Housing, which complicates everything. I think the use of the word "instanced" is a bit misleading in this case. What we would do is recreate the world building at and around the shrine in a separate area free of housing. When the battle for the shrine took place, it would occur at this location. When a battle began the fighting would take place in this location and any participant would be free to join in the battle by whatever mechanic ends up getting you to the battle." [http://stratics.com/community/threads/in-concept-virtue-vs-vice.301505/page-7#post-2291414]
• In response to a question from CovenantX regarding whether or not all players will be able to PvP at these recreated shrines: "You would need to be in the V/V system to enter." [http://stratics.com/community/threads/in-concept-virtue-vs-vice.301505/page-7#post-2291450]
• "Once a battle has started it will continue until there is a victor. If there is a change in population after a short cool down before the next battle starts the next battle won't initialize. " [http://stratics.com/community/threads/in-concept-virtue-vs-vice.301505/page-5#post-2290053]

Hopefully Kyronix is around and can jump in and address your post (and others that have been made since his last post of August 1st) himself! I'm positive I'm not the only person who would like to hear whether this is still on the drawing board; what modifications or additions have been made (including anything special for Siege/Mugen) since it was presented in July; and, if it is still going to be implemented, an estimated publish date for it and the simultaneous removal of factions.

 

[Kyronix]

It took a lot of digging to find Kyronix's replies in this thread which kind of address the points you raised (see material in quotation marks in the bulleted list below). Puzzling through his replies and the original post, my impression is that the battlefield area(s) will be located somewhere separate from the rest of Felucca and that only Virtue and Vice members will be able to enter that/those area(s) (via some unknown mechanism). As a result, it seems reasonable to me that if you quit the Virtue or Vice side in the middle of a battle, you would be automatically ejected to someplace outside of the battlefield area but would still be subject to the wounded status debuff until it wears off.

• First of all, don't forget that if you quit, you can't rejoin for 7 days, unless you move your character to another shard. In that case, you can apparently rejoin immediately. (Details are from the first post in the thread.)
• "The idea is that your incoming damage will be buffed, for example, if you under normal circumstances were to take 20 damage, if you were wounded you would take 25 etc etc." [http://stratics.com/community/threads/in-concept-virtue-vs-vice.301505/page-5#post-2289991]
• Regarding how long it takes for the wounded debuff to wear off and where will it apply: "Long enough to be an effective deterrent but not so long as to become a burden. It will apply anywhere...that's the trade off for free top level gear. "
• "We are looking at providing a solution to this by centering battles in a mirrored area of the shrine....something along the lines of you go to a shrine, then head to the battleground area. This allows us to both deal with housing in the area that could complicate things, as well as provide different areas for battle with varying landscapes and other natural features...which of course makes for a more fun fighting experience." [http://stratics.com/community/threads/in-concept-virtue-vs-vice.301505/page-5#post-2290017]
• "Doing anything in the existing over world of this magnitude results in having to deal with Housing, which complicates everything. I think the use of the word "instanced" is a bit misleading in this case. What we would do is recreate the world building at and around the shrine in a separate area free of housing. When the battle for the shrine took place, it would occur at this location. When a battle began the fighting would take place in this location and any participant would be free to join in the battle by whatever mechanic ends up getting you to the battle." [http://stratics.com/community/threads/in-concept-virtue-vs-vice.301505/page-7#post-2291414]
• In response to a question from CovenantX regarding whether or not all players will be able to PvP at these recreated shrines: "You would need to be in the V/V system to enter." [http://stratics.com/community/threads/in-concept-virtue-vs-vice.301505/page-7#post-2291450]
• "Once a battle has started it will continue until there is a victor. If there is a change in population after a short cool down before the next battle starts the next battle won't initialize. " [http://stratics.com/community/threads/in-concept-virtue-vs-vice.301505/page-5#post-2290053]

Hopefully Kyronix is around and can jump in and address your post (and others that have been made since his last post of August 1st) himself! I'm positive I'm not the only person who would like to hear whether this is still on the drawing board; what modifications or additions have been made (including anything special for Siege/Mugen) since it was presented in July; and, if it is still going to be implemented, an estimated publish date for it and the simultaneous removal of factions.

Our next step would be to put a prototype on a test shard, no timetable yet on when that will occur. Any changes we've made since the initial Stratics posts and subsequent discussion will be available at that time. We still check on this thread, so if anyone has additional thoughts based on what was already discussed please feel free to post them!

 

[Tina Small]

Our next step would be to put a prototype on a test shard, no timetable yet on when that will occur. Any changes we've made since the initial Stratics posts and subsequent discussion will be available at that time. We still check on this thread, so if anyone has additional thoughts based on what was already discussed please feel free to post them!

Thank you for the reply!

Now I have to tease you a bit though. On 11/22, you said regarding the most recent publish, "It's also worth noting, that the most valuable feedback comes when we expose the content to the largest audience...hence the short stay on traditional test shards." I really, really hope that you will let us play around with the "Virtue vs. Vice" prototype on a test shard for more than just a few days or even a few weeks.

Also, is there any possibility at all of you guys working with the communication team to send out an e-mail/newsletter to all accounts telling them about this? Maybe, just maybe, it might help to get some people to come back and check things out? Maybe even consider doing a Return to Britannia campaign while the publish is on test just to get some of the people who've left over the years because of PvP issues to come back? And would you also consider implementing some of the suggestions that have been made about expanding bank box sizes and resources given out on Test to make it easier for people to go there and get involved? I know all of these things are more work for you guys. However, I really believe they are worth considering to do along with the actual prototype of the Virtue vs. Vice system so you really get that broad exposure to a large audience that I think you want while it's still in the testing stage and easier to modify.

Edited to add: Do you think you will be able to set up a prototype on a separate test shard that follows the special rule set for Siege and Mugen?

 

[Kyronix]

Thank you for the reply!

Now I have to tease you a bit though. On 11/22, you said regarding the most recent publish, "It's also worth noting, that the most valuable feedback comes when we expose the content to the largest audience...hence the short stay on traditional test shards." I really, really hope that you will let us play around with the "Virtue vs. Vice" prototype on a test shard for more than just a few days or even a few weeks.

Will be something we will test/tweak for as long as we need to. Testing needs change based on the nature of what is being tested. That's primarily what I meant in regards to the post related to the invasions, since the core mechanic there had already been in play for some time.

 

[Goodmann]

Can we get a ETA on when well see this on test?

 

[Kyronix]

Can we get a ETA on when well see this on test?

No timetable just yet, we are still in the process of building it.

 

[Goodmann]

No timetable just yet, we are still in the process of building it.

Are we going to see another pub before the holidays? I figured I would ask since your lurking around here

 

[Tyrath]

I hate to preach more of the same about not killing siege again. Freja spelled it out very well, I perosnally have no problem with factions as they are on Siege although they could use an overhaul specific to the Siege ruleset. What works on prodo is as history has proven often seriously breaks Siege. I know many will disagree but as it is Siege is the most stable shard in UO as far as active and balanced PVP, an economy that has not been wracked by the idiotic inflation on prodo mainly due to the lack of duping and xfrs. I don't want to pack up and leave Siege again because the Devs break it again. If your car engine needs a tune up do you put a new engine in it

 

[Mervyn]

I have a question, my current suits are based around faction artifacts. Is the deletion of factions going to break all my suits or will the current faction artifacts be available in the VV system?

 

[Tyrath]

From what i have read the existing Faction arties will decay normally and will no longer exist.

 

[Tina Small]

I have a question, my current suits are based around faction artifacts. Is the deletion of factions going to break all my suits or will the current faction artifacts be available in the VV system?

The way I interpret what Mesanna said in the original post and comments which Kyronix made throughout the thread, it sounds as if:

1. You're going to be able to get some gear for free from participating in this system. Mesanna's first post says additional gear will be available for purchase; however, Kyronix said in one of his posts that the artifacts and gear won't require any payment, other than participating and using them in Felucca.
2. The gear available through this system will be similar to current faction gear, except that it will not be ephemeral.
3. The dev team will most likely work out something unique for Siege and Mugen regarding the availability of gear from this system.
4. The gear available through this system will be subject to heavy damage if you try to also use it in Trammel.
5. Silver is supposed to continue to have a use, but there's nothing describing what you will use it for or how you will get it.
6. There will not be any kind of PvM content in this system, so getting silver from killing monsters sounds like it will go away with the discontinuation of the faction system.

More specific gear-related comments from Mesanna's first post in the thread:

• One of the high level goals for the new system is to offer a sufficient level of gear that allows those playing multiple shards to find the fight on whichever shard it may be occurring on.
• All currently existing faction artifacts will be allowed to expire via the “Moonbound” property.
• Current faction gear will expire normally.
• Each side will have an encampment located somewhere in the overworld where they can get limited amounts of gear similar to old faction gear for free, with additional gear being available for purchase. Each side will also get a mount. These encampments will only be accessible by members of its respective team.
• Gear will be functionally useful in Felucca only.
• You will have access to gear (similar to current faction gear) that will only work in Felucca. These items will not be ephemeral, however will take extreme damage in Trammel.
• Silver will continue to have a use, the extent of which is still in concept.

Kyronix' gear-related comments which are scattered throughout this thread:

• There has been a long standing issue with the use and prevalence of faction artifacts by those who do not participate in factions, this will address that issue.
• There is no farming required to do anything with Virtue & Vice...everything is the result of participating in player vs. player content...fighting/stealing/evading etc etc.
• The issue I pointed out with faction artifacts used in Trammel is that for a while the system was exploited for the artifacts in that players would join, get free gear, and then never actually participate in the faction system. Over time there have been a series of attempts to fix that, the most recent the inclusion of faction silver. While you may not have an issue with collecting enough silver to sustain the use artifacts, others do, and have made their feelings known. The idea is that if you want to PvP you don't want to have to PvM to farm silver. That is why the artifacts and gear won't require any payment, other than participating and using them in Felucca.
• We are aware of the unique situation that Siege would be in regarding the free gear offered and will work something out before final implementation. Having a negative effect on Siege is not something we wish to gain out of this.

 

[startle]

.......
Kyronix' gear-related comments which are scattered throughout this thread:

• We are aware of the unique situation that Siege would be in regarding the free gear offered and will work something out before final implementation. Having a negative effect on Siege is not something we wish to gain out of this.

This!

 

[Mithryl Elves]

No timetable just yet, we are still in the process of building it.

At first I was against this. I have been a fan of factions for years. I was that nerd that sat up for 3 days with no sleep guarding because we failed at the last minute to hold against a raid. Many of my friends in this game played factions with me and factions holds some of our best memories in the game.


However, I am now for this. The concept has promise. I would love if this can bring more pvp to the game. I think I play this game because of the large scale fights we used to get years back. I chase the feeling and even though we get 100-120 player fights on ATL a couple times a week I dream about them a lot more often. If this concept has a chance at bringing some more action to the game why not do it. I'm all for it.

 

[RockoNV]

Two clients and shards with different rule sets. This will not be released any time soon. They have been looking at this for 6 months, perhaps by July it will be published.

 

[Wayne Train]

This sounds more like a mini game then an on going scenario. Since you can leave instantly I think it should also be in trammel and other facets. Which would also solve the problem of people using the gear only in trammel and just joining for the perks and never going to fel, instead of having to change your suit everytime u come or leave fel that will surely get annoying. EVERYONE wants cool mounts they should be harder to acquire and have abilities like dread mare. While making sure u have to participate to get one. This would surely increase interest in joining. Also colors that represent the teams should be really cool and flashy to also spark interest and made craftable like the old school faction items. And PVP is also a big reason ppl start playing and continue playing online games my opinion is the days of only being able to PVP on one facet are over!! Sounds like the virtue PVP is taking away from PVP areas to fight not trying to add to them. There should also be strong roles not only for thieves but all crafters with perks for all, lets get everyone involved and excited! just my opinion.

Wayne Train

 

[Lefty]

Contrary what was said in the State of UO address, this does not address the issue of apposing players joining the same side, or the incorporation of spies in said faction or virtue/vice side.

Your swapping sigil guarding for shrine guarding. War is about geographical control of land , economy and political position.

My idea would be town ownership, but there would have to be more than one objective to control a town.

ie - all guards are aligned neutral. all guards are aggressive to all other factions. Guards can be killed or subdued.
shops or towns would have their own mini champions.
A town champion would have to be conquered.
reward would be the key to the city. Conquering a town will allow factions to set vendor prices, get a few buffs, special items etc. Non pvpers can declare city loyalty
to gain access to a few bonuses, but not all that the conquering faction has.

In a limited way there is a chance a town community could form.

 

[popps]

As first impression, at this time my main recommendation is to make sure that at all times the balance of power between the 2 Teams is always ensured.

That is, that neither of the 2 Teams can come up either by sheer numbers of participants or by quality of gear as topping the other.

This, to avoid any of the 2 Teams take control of PvP over the other.

If any of the 2 Teams is allowed by the game dynamics to most always top the other, the end result will be lack of challenge for the overwhelmingly more powerfull Team and lack of interest for the players of the exceedingly weak Team. My concern, should this happen, is that players of the more powerfull Team will loose interest because of lack of challenge while players of the less powerfull Team will leave PvP frustrated to loose battles one too many.

So, there should be ways to balance out Battles and make sure that on average both Teams can loose some and win some, but never win too many and loose too many......

Keep up the good work !!

 

[Promathia]

Contrary what was said in the State of UO address, this does not address the issue of apposing players joining the same side, or the incorporation of spies in said faction or virtue/vice side.

Uh what? Considering they stated the "sides" of V/V are determined by the individual guilds, the only way people can "hide" in your side or "spy" is if you LET them into your guild.

 

[Picus at the office]

No one is going to use this system, I will refrence this post 3 months after VV comes out.

 

[Lythos-]

No one is going to use this system, I will refrence this post 3 months after VV comes out.

If there's something extremely OP involved I can see a few taking the time to work it. A chaos/order type simple system would do wonders for UO especially if it were multi facet.

I think i'll pass on this though. They're looking at over a year coding time that's going to be completely wasted.