I agree that it is a way of enticing people to come over....but it is a way that would have the smallest ripple in generating interest in FEL....it doesn't, though, help in any way the issues of PVP
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So the thousands of 120 scrolls my red has contributed dont count towards me being a productive member of UO neither then.? Or the amount of fun i have provided to the blues at yew gate who have spent hours chasing me around trying to kill me. Then there is the protection i provide to some PvMers at spawns so they can get there scrolls out. not a good argument is it
Maybe im not productive in your mind, but that’s ok, some people cant see past the end of their own nose I guess.
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Didn't realize you were such a pillar to society...how many of the thousands of scrolls came from the deaths of innocent blues...I'm sure more than one....I guess thievery and murder can be productive if you rationalize it correctly...
You're probably right. But I was hoping that the blue guards would be a formidable force that bluebies (generally not as good at pvp) could side with (for no reward except the fighting) where as the pvpers would attack with their reds and maybe / maybe not win. The cool thing for the blues is that in t2a, the reds have to either rez each other or run all the way out to find a priest for rez.
As for guilds doing this... the population is generally too small now days for that. If a shard started doing that, the cross sharders would come in and blow it up and destroy the whole thing. That's why I think that the blues have to have such a big advntage with the knight guards, etc, s that they can have a "safe" zone without it being a guard zone. In general, the reds are significantly better pvpers than the blues. But with some help, maybe the blues could participate enought that they gain enough skills to play other areas in their own right.
R U NEW? There are no innocent blues in felucca. Get a grip.
WHAT???? You are kidding right....Did you read your post before you hit that....That is the most delusional thing I have ever seen posted.....
So please explain how a miner in FEL is not an innocent blue character and deserves to die by your hand....
I believe you make a nice argument on why reds should never be allowed in Trammel!
Agree wholeheartidly swroberts.
Tired of these Fel Threads popping up promoting terrible ideas. We've had one thread after another of bad bad ideas going on for a month now.
What scary is that the devs read these boards and may think some of the posters represent the majority.
You can argue and make your point in this thread and then another thread will pop up going over the exact same things.
This has been going on for quite some time now.
People can't put in their two cents and leave it be. Another thread gets started rehashing the same old garbage.
I've seen some of the worst ideas pop up on stratics within the last month and this thread is right up there with any of them.
Look for another thread very soon " Felucca BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!"
If you're tired of seeing these threads and think the ideas are so bad then please provide some constructive comments on how you would make Fel more enjoyable for those that do enjoy it?
We're not trying to ruin your gameplay in Tram but bring Fel up to par. We want things to do. We want reasonable pvm other than walking 10min one way through a dungeon. The majority of us are so sick of seeing champs it's not even funny. We want people interested in pvp to come try it out. We want our old vet pvpers to come back to the game.
We DON'T want fresh "sheep". The majority of us DON'T want exclusive items. We want equal things to do so our pvpers can stop pvming in Tram rulesets to make money. We DON'T want to force anyone into Fel nor do we want to be forced into playing in tram rulesets.
I don't see why it's so hard to understand that. We want equality to enjoy what we like while you continue to do what you like...
We're not trying to ruin your gameplay in Tram but bring Fel up to par. We want things to do. We want reasonable pvm other than walking 10min one way through a dungeon. The majority of us are so sick of seeing champs it's not even funny. We want people interested in pvp to come try it out. We want our old vet pvpers to come back to the game.
We DON'T want fresh "sheep". The majority of us DON'T want exclusive items. We want equal things to do so our pvpers can stop pvming in Tram rulesets to make money. We DON'T want to force anyone into Fel nor do we want to be forced into playing in tram rulesets.
I don't see why it's so hard to understand that. We want equality to enjoy what we like while you continue to do what you like...
Extremely well said!
Old SA days HELL YEA!!!!!!!!!!! The best RP war I was involved in was PAS against 1st. I was also in =G= against ZOG, but I can't remember my character's name.
no one mines out side of GZ in fel anymore, well unless they are scripting.
But just to show I am a nice guy lets say this. If a character has more than 400 points invested in "crafting" they can not be attacked in Fel.
I am stepping in here and want things to settle down. I get the feeling this thread is about to TROLL which it's getting real close.
Remember this is not to be taken personally and to be constructive. If any feel this is getting a little heated when it comes to posting and your posting with emotion then reread your post before you post it.
If you already made your voice very clear and where you stand on any issues then please don't stay to just ruin it for others that are adding to this conversation.
If I see any more remarks I will start giving warnings
Remember this is not to be taken personally and to be constructive. If any feel this is getting a little heated when it comes to posting and your posting with emotion then reread your post before you post it.
If you already made your voice very clear and where you stand on any issues then please don't stay to just ruin it for others that are adding to this conversation.
If I see any more remarks I will start giving warnings
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Last posting that I'll try to add to this thread.
This blue entered Fel which is a place that is known to everyone that you can/might/will be killed. There is no innocent people if you know that there is a perfectly safe place to go yet you choose to go elsewhere. That is like saying that instead of taking my family to disney-land for the safe and well controlled enviroment I choose to drive a Bently down some burnt out hood in Detroit. Yes both places are in America which is better than Mexico but if we all get murdered am I not really the idiot to place the first level of blame at?
Clearly this is a nice argument on why Detroit Hoods should never be allowed out of the Ghetto....
Given enough time, the truth shall be revealed...So in essence the PVP argument of "we don't want more sheep" is a complete load of ****. You wonder why no one ever plays in FEL, yet have an attitude of if you come through the gate you should be killed....If you want to call that PVP....killing PVM characters......fine. I going to go ahead and call that PK'ing, which is what Felluca is all about. But stop creating threads complaining how you are limited in your game. Going back to my original argument...you created those lands...your drove everyone off and they won't come back to the point of it is just not cost effective to make dual content...You blame te DEV's for ruining PVP when it was your attitude all along. It is funny how you can pancake about how nerfing ruined PVP, and instead of being a strong anti-nerfing advocate...this thread is full of nerf the sampire, nerf the mystic, nerf the thrower....nerf them damm solo players....nerf....nerf...nerf...followed by I want into TRAM...let me in...let me in...let me in... I'm sure the DEV's will not find anything worthy to note in this thread....so you can keep your powerscrolls, keep your harrower, and keep your asses in FEL...
I'm done....
Thank you Zosimus. Everytime I felt like the thread was going smoothly and was managing to stay productive a situation would arise and cause me to hesitate posting. I apologize for having this attitude, but I get tired of feeling like the majority of my posts start with "Lets all be friends.", but seriously... lets all be civil, at the very least.
If more posters could just accept that other people's opinions, playstyles, and experiences might differ and resist trying to convince said people that their choices are wrong, then this thread could be two pages of constructive dialogue, instead of five pages of some "nit picking", and personal disagreements, with the occasional jewel of wisdom buried under all the nonsense. If I were a developer I would hate to have to sift through all this... Try and imagine a thread with considerate suggestions, factually based rebuttals, and some acceptance and understanding of different opinions and experiences, and then try and picture if someone were to post an obviously biased, inconsiderate, possibly inflammatory post... It would stick out like a sore thumb. All the rational posters would get a chuckle, it would be ignored (hopefully), and we could move on with attempting to give the developers some useful pros and cons on suggestions they might not have thought of. - Spiel over -
To make this post as productive as I can and hopefully refocus some of these obviously passionate posters, there are a few things I read that were very interesting I would like to comment on.
On the issue of reds in tram for chaos/order battles in specific: Very similar to what Zosimus mentioned, if my memory serves me correctly back when factions first came out murderers were able to join and get a one time reprieve. One restriction I believe was, if you murdered someone under the reprieve then all your counts would instantly come back and you would be red again, so in theory if this mechanic could be replicated for the new chaos/order system it could mitigate some of the issues with current "reds" being able to participate in tram.
On Arenas: I would love to see arena battles get more attention after more pressing pvp issues are tackled. For me I much prefer the 1v1 experience that the arena can more easily provide and also make more appealing to a wider base of players. To me it is far less fun chasing down and ganking enemies with my buddies, something all pvpers are use to in the current pvp enviroment. The thought of even jokingly patting myself on the back for killing someone so outnumbered makes me demoralized. Someone mentioned having the area around the arenas a "safe zone", which is an example of a small change that would go a long way.
On Spawns I will hold off, as Petra has pointed out they are currently on the list of things being looked into and they also remain a quite contentious sticking point for players. I believe some general pvp fixes (along the lines of what Bleak has already mentioned) combined with a well received and balanced chaos/order system could go a long way to bolstering the pvp communities experience, until we get some solid data on the champ system in the future.
It is in our best interest to be open to comprimise and understand that everyone plays the game differently, when posting in any thread.
If more posters could just accept that other people's opinions, playstyles, and experiences might differ and resist trying to convince said people that their choices are wrong, then this thread could be two pages of constructive dialogue, instead of five pages of some "nit picking", and personal disagreements, with the occasional jewel of wisdom buried under all the nonsense. If I were a developer I would hate to have to sift through all this... Try and imagine a thread with considerate suggestions, factually based rebuttals, and some acceptance and understanding of different opinions and experiences, and then try and picture if someone were to post an obviously biased, inconsiderate, possibly inflammatory post... It would stick out like a sore thumb. All the rational posters would get a chuckle, it would be ignored (hopefully), and we could move on with attempting to give the developers some useful pros and cons on suggestions they might not have thought of. - Spiel over -
To make this post as productive as I can and hopefully refocus some of these obviously passionate posters, there are a few things I read that were very interesting I would like to comment on.
On the issue of reds in tram for chaos/order battles in specific: Very similar to what Zosimus mentioned, if my memory serves me correctly back when factions first came out murderers were able to join and get a one time reprieve. One restriction I believe was, if you murdered someone under the reprieve then all your counts would instantly come back and you would be red again, so in theory if this mechanic could be replicated for the new chaos/order system it could mitigate some of the issues with current "reds" being able to participate in tram.
On Arenas: I would love to see arena battles get more attention after more pressing pvp issues are tackled. For me I much prefer the 1v1 experience that the arena can more easily provide and also make more appealing to a wider base of players. To me it is far less fun chasing down and ganking enemies with my buddies, something all pvpers are use to in the current pvp enviroment. The thought of even jokingly patting myself on the back for killing someone so outnumbered makes me demoralized. Someone mentioned having the area around the arenas a "safe zone", which is an example of a small change that would go a long way.
On Spawns I will hold off, as Petra has pointed out they are currently on the list of things being looked into and they also remain a quite contentious sticking point for players. I believe some general pvp fixes (along the lines of what Bleak has already mentioned) combined with a well received and balanced chaos/order system could go a long way to bolstering the pvp communities experience, until we get some solid data on the champ system in the future.
It is in our best interest to be open to comprimise and understand that everyone plays the game differently, when posting in any thread.
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You're welcome ShadowTrauma.
It's ok to disagree but yes you are 100% right that some nitpicking and personal disagreements derailed the thread from time to time.
I am cleaning a couple of posts as I type this and warnings has been served.
Now lets stay civil and constructive everybody. This thread was made for a certain player base to be able to voice their concerns. I made the thread and I feel it's not "pointless". Both tram and fel players are part of the whole community. Fel players have felt that they have no voice on the forums and I am trying and willing to give that part of the player base a chance to speak what they would like to see changed or stay the same.
Posting ideas does not mean that they will happen but one idea or little improvement may be the base of a greater idea that may grow and the community may able to agree. This also may catch a dev's attention enough to see if an idea or suggestion may even be plausable. I have seen both sides of the community engage in some intersting conversations and agree to a point on some suggestions, which to me is moving forward and I applaud everyone that has attemtped to stay on the path.
This is not Fel vs Tram arguments. This is not Fel and tram players to bash on each other. Both sides have flaws at times but we are human after all. This thread was to allow a 'healthy and constructive discussion" to any player if they want to contribute. PvP is not just in UO but many MMO's. All players no matter what game they play have a right to voice an opinion on the game they play and what they enjoy. Even if it's the unpopular part of the game by the majority view.
Fel isn't for everybody and its a tough part of the game as some feel. Some don't like it at all but its part of UO and it was, at one time, the only ruleset the game had. No matter the reason of the split its still a vital part of the game just as much as Trammel. This sentence is not up for debate.
It's ok to disagree but yes you are 100% right that some nitpicking and personal disagreements derailed the thread from time to time.
I am cleaning a couple of posts as I type this and warnings has been served.
Now lets stay civil and constructive everybody. This thread was made for a certain player base to be able to voice their concerns. I made the thread and I feel it's not "pointless". Both tram and fel players are part of the whole community. Fel players have felt that they have no voice on the forums and I am trying and willing to give that part of the player base a chance to speak what they would like to see changed or stay the same.
Posting ideas does not mean that they will happen but one idea or little improvement may be the base of a greater idea that may grow and the community may able to agree. This also may catch a dev's attention enough to see if an idea or suggestion may even be plausable. I have seen both sides of the community engage in some intersting conversations and agree to a point on some suggestions, which to me is moving forward and I applaud everyone that has attemtped to stay on the path.
This is not Fel vs Tram arguments. This is not Fel and tram players to bash on each other. Both sides have flaws at times but we are human after all. This thread was to allow a 'healthy and constructive discussion" to any player if they want to contribute. PvP is not just in UO but many MMO's. All players no matter what game they play have a right to voice an opinion on the game they play and what they enjoy. Even if it's the unpopular part of the game by the majority view.
Fel isn't for everybody and its a tough part of the game as some feel. Some don't like it at all but its part of UO and it was, at one time, the only ruleset the game had. No matter the reason of the split its still a vital part of the game just as much as Trammel. This sentence is not up for debate.
No your problem is that you aren't seeing the fact that you always have choices. That's your choice if you don't want to learn that part of the game to enjoy the pvm that comes with it. No one is forcing you to. If you want to throw in the towel that's up to you, and I certainly won't talk you out of it.
Again you're dead wrong on what is making pvpers not want to play. It's changes that affect pvp that are negative such as limiting templates ect all the stuff that I have already mentioned.
For whatever reason you don't understand most of us[myself at least] are not asking for new items. We're asking for changes to be undone or a countered that started limiting templates, or adding spells/weapons that are badly needed to be adjusted.
You can't comment on this really since you said yourself that you don't pvp and you hate it. Since you're not the one doing factions and guild wars and making diverse templates you have no way to know where we are coming from. You have no first hand experience of the problems we want corrected. Fixing faction points for example has nothing to do with tram as an example.
No one is asking for skills to be nerfed to not being used, however with a soul glave for example, do you think it's fair that it hits as hard as armor ignore[special that takes mana] on its regular hits that cost no mana? If so what is your argument that is should remain like this, on top of having a range longer than any other weapon in game?
Why should cleansing winds have 3 spells rolled into one? Perhaps we should get a spell that curses poisons and flame strikes all in 1 for 20 mana at a 2 second cast?
I await your answers to my questions so you can enlighten myself and others on why things like this are unfair to adjust so they aren't leagues ahead of other spells and weapons.
Fixing factions is a terrible idea?
Giving us the the option to have a broad range of templates is a terrible idea?
Order chaos is a terrible idea?
Why are these ideas so terrible?
Again, the Fel people have been saying stuff like this for the last ten years. It's not happening. Everyone who wants to PVP already is. The rest of us don't care about your hobby. Some of us are tired of reading posts like the first one in this thread, about how EA should whip us and beat us and twist our arms to get us to participate.
To clear things up with you, we don't want more sheep. If you don't want to pvp don't come to felucca, Simple!
Easy yeah? Don't come to felucca if you don't want to PvP. There said it twice now.
If your crafter is out of a guard zone, expect to be killed, as you will be asked to defend yourself. My miner dies every other day in felucca, but i can except this as i know i was stupid enough not to put any fighting skills on him. Silly me!
So working n the understanding that if you come to felucca you will be asked to defend yourself at some point. Why not learn to defend yourself?
If my guild want to do a champ spawn, we take 2-3 PvPers and 1-2 PvM characters. Why? We know that at some point we are going to have to defend the champ we are working. Easy...Eh?
So to get back on topic, we want something new to fight over. If you trammies(none PvPers) want what we are fighting over, be prepared to fight for it, or just wait for it to hit the vendors and buy it. Simple...Eh?
Champ Spawns were great for PvP, we used to have massive fights that could last for hours, before factions took off again. Factions killed the big fights with stat loss and with a few other nerfs along the road it killed the PvP. Now we need something new to fight over, not to draw in the sheep as you call them. But to draw in the PvPer again.
A lot of new people come into PvP more than you may think. Many of them come into a PvP guild as PvMers, only to work the spawn while the PvPers defend the spawn. At some point the PvMers have to get involved with the PvP to help keep there spawn. Once they get involved, you find that they enjoyed it so much they intrun become the new kids on the block. Its been this way for years.
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Winker...keep the focus buddy...like you are a noob at a Harry and your 5 person team just found out that there is a 15 person raid coming...keep the focus...try to finish my post...and if you do...please be sure to give a real reply and not something like "I Lost Interest".
That kind of answer is the EXACT answer most would give you about Fel and it's lack of population.
Who really cares, if it doesn't interest me?
You wouldn't want others to treat your requests in such a manner...please have the courtesy to do the same for other people...
Yes...and the line to get into the PVP/PK part of UO is so long that...that...
PKs want new things so they don't have to PVM...leave that to the vast number of well equipped PVMers that have come to Fel so that they can do the PVM stuff...working the spawn for the PKs. They will either have to learn to defend themselves against raiding PKs or be killed.
And that process...that has "Been that way for YEARS"...is paying off so handsomely...yes...I can see the line to Fel forming up now...
Oh wait...it is the fault of the Game that Fel doesn't have more players...they need to put more Shinies into Fel, so that people will want to come and "work the spawn" while the folks that want to defend against PKs can...wait...they all will need to defend against PKs pretty much. But at it's core, the BIG challenge is that no one NEEDS to come to Fel...so getting something into Fel that makes people want to PVM there so others can try to PK them while they try to get their shinies...yeah...no sheep wanted here...LOL.
They have put shinies in Fel for a very long time..Fel Only Shinies .ever since the deserted waste land was determined to be floundering after Tram was introduced, and they introduced Power Scrolls to PVP over. Many introductions that could ONLY be gotten in Fel have come and gone...and yet...here we are again...the PK component saying they need more stuffs in Fel to get more "PVP" action.
Not that the PKs want "Sheep". They just want folks that can work a spawn, right? And if the PVMers come and get whacked a few times...maybe they will become "Inspirationally Dissatisfied" with their performance, and learn to defend against PKs...which then hopefully gets them confident enough to come back and do it again, right?
Like it has been for years? Like all of the people who currently PVP (the vast numbers) got introduced and just love it?
The intent and wishes couldn't be more transparent actually. Just put a sign up on Fel: No Sheep Wanted...Just PVMers...
So i did what you asked i read it all, took me a while but i got there. I did start to lose interest half way through, but i did as you suggested and i stuck with it and kept on going.
Take me for an example. I consider my self a armed PvMer. Yes there i said it. Im a PvMer. I love it! I solo champ spawns regulary. Well i used to, up until a few moths back, when i started to farm Trammel (new content, shame Cove and right now Despsie my fav)
Oooh i hear you say, farm spawn in tram...Tsk Tsk Tsk!
Why?
Cause i dont have to fight a PvPer who may want to take my goodies that im doing so nicely on. My goal is to make as much gold in trammel as i can and right now i am making a lot more than i could ever make from champ spawns and scrolls and replicas.
But...with the above said, i would be just as happy to have something spawn in felucca and i would go and work the spawn there. But for me to do so it would take an item that i could not get in in trammel, and it would need to be something worth the extra effort.
FYI my red characters went red many, many years ago, defending my guilds champs from blue raiders, before factions. So even my red character were at one point PvM characters. You just assume im a bad ass cause my character is red.
So in summery, yes we need something in felucca that you need to advance your character thats worth fighting over.
Yours truly
An Armed PvMer
Thanks for sticking with it. Good Job. However, reading does not necessarily imply "Comprehension", obviously.
You make the assumption that I think you are a bad ass...I never said that. I actually made no reference to any of your characters, at all, that I am aware of. I actually don't care.
How you make gold is not the topic of discussion either, or where (or wasn't). I don't care about that either.
The topic and point of discussion is that without Fel only content that is desirable enough, people in Fel don't have enough people to PvP against. You were stating that if there IS Fel Only content, then people could come and do PvM while people that enjoy PvP can try and defend the spawn against Raiders. Then, eventually, the PvMers will have to defend themselves against PKs, and some will "Stick" and love PvP as much as the folks that love PvP do.
Some will...most won't. Then, after there are lots of the "Fel Only" items available, the Devs will need to add more...as they have done over the last twelve years) to keep enticing new people to come to Fel...more "PvMers" to "PvP" with.
And your point that YOU and the rest of the PvPers DON'T want "Sheep"...DON'T want "Sheep" (even said it twice)...just "PvMers" to help fight the spawn...is a very thinly veiled attempt to lure people who wouldn't normally go to Fel for anything, to go to Fel to get the "Fel Only" content.
Then, once there, if they are "resourceful and smart like Real PvPers"...they will enjoy it and stick with it once they have to fight against a well organized group of PKs. If not...well then I guess they were just Trammies through and through...but at least the PKs got to collect some Insurance Gold and attack people that are fighting a spawn and not as set up for PvP as the attackers!!!!
The intent could not be more obvious, Winker. And that was the point of my post. You say you "need" Fel only "Somethings" to fight over.
I say that you "Need" a way to get more people to Fel, because most players do not care for Non-Con PvP. And I also say you can call it whatever you want, but at the end of the day or a long post by Surgeries...it is still...
Just a Fargin' Carrot. A Fargin Carrot (even said it twice).
I like carrots
There ya go...you got it.I like carrots
Thanks for the admission. I knew you had it in you!!
Not everyone does like carrots...especially ones on sticks....when the stick is then used on the person going for the carrot. Tends to create a dislike for that particular vegetable. Maybe if they try some other things out on that stick, you can go back to Fel to farm!!
Glad we have that straightened out, and your position is now very clear.
Thanks for the clarification.
One issue that has been discussed and was touchesd upon briefly was maybe some of the friendlier PvP guilds help train some of the blue players who do attempt to go to fel. I would rather be able to fight a fow that can give me a fight then just roll over them.
Arenas can come to play into help with the training in a confined area.
Arenas can also help train teamwork.
Is that enough? No. Some players probably don't know all the little tricks like combining macros with UO and UOA on one key.
I wonder how many blue players truly know to use refresh pots in fel because of stamina blocks.
One fault of a spawning guild and this happens quite a bit they get seperated from each other and that one blue gets zerged by 4 reds. Instead of staying together and working as a team.
PvP guilds willing to help train willing PvM players wanting to learn defence and/or offence could help make a difference on their shard.
I have suggested it in another thread but Friday Night fights to me would be a great idea to maybe get some good organized fights with new players wanting to learn that part of UO. Make teams, 1 vs 1, open field fighting, ect ect. The worst is somebody going to die and lose some insurance money. Just as long as it's an honest ran event and no dry looting there should never be an issue. This may get both sides to work with each other a little more.
Be nice and take a PvM guild that may not get to spawn much or the one that a shard particulary rolls everytime and protect them maybe once and twice and let them spawn. It may be a nice gesture but sometimes the little things are the big picture. I am not saying this should happen all the time and should be expected.
Remember these are just suggetions and possible ideas any guild or player can like or dislike. I would rather be able to have a fight on my hands and have fun than nobody to fight at all.
Arenas can come to play into help with the training in a confined area.
Arenas can also help train teamwork.
Is that enough? No. Some players probably don't know all the little tricks like combining macros with UO and UOA on one key.
I wonder how many blue players truly know to use refresh pots in fel because of stamina blocks.
One fault of a spawning guild and this happens quite a bit they get seperated from each other and that one blue gets zerged by 4 reds. Instead of staying together and working as a team.
PvP guilds willing to help train willing PvM players wanting to learn defence and/or offence could help make a difference on their shard.
I have suggested it in another thread but Friday Night fights to me would be a great idea to maybe get some good organized fights with new players wanting to learn that part of UO. Make teams, 1 vs 1, open field fighting, ect ect. The worst is somebody going to die and lose some insurance money. Just as long as it's an honest ran event and no dry looting there should never be an issue. This may get both sides to work with each other a little more.
Be nice and take a PvM guild that may not get to spawn much or the one that a shard particulary rolls everytime and protect them maybe once and twice and let them spawn. It may be a nice gesture but sometimes the little things are the big picture. I am not saying this should happen all the time and should be expected.
Remember these are just suggetions and possible ideas any guild or player can like or dislike. I would rather be able to have a fight on my hands and have fun than nobody to fight at all.
Once my schedule slows down (which won't be until the end of May at the earliest) I would be more than happy to go to any American shard (only American because my lag is too bad on other shards) and help Tram guild learn how to defend their spawns. Just depending on the shard I might need a hand getting a character up and running.
I am sure there are many other mean and nasty PvPers that would be willing to do the same.
We used to do it regular on Europa, bu the interest is slowed right down on champ spawn. Its hard to find anyone but the die hards now doing them.
Gah.... what to say about all this ?? Well, I think I'll just post my simple view on PvP in UO...
All of us pretty much go about our UO lives doing 2 things..
1) Things we Want to be doing .. aka FUN stuff
2) Things we Need to be doing .. aka NOT fun stuff.. bc if it was FUN we'd want to be doing it lol.
PvP for any True PvPer is 1)... It's what we'd be doing the WHOLE time we play UO if we had the option. Generally the rule I operate under (& probabaly most people) is if you cannot do FUN stuff atm then you switch to 2) & do that stuff you feel you NEED to. The MAIN reason PvP had declined is participation imo. If you cannot log on & find a fight then you switch to 2). The problem has become drastically worse though, because for a VERY long time doing Champion spawns in FEL could be considered 2)..... & as a very nice bonus on the side might just become a 1) if you got raided. The problem is that these days Champion spawns are soooooo far down the list of things that NEED doing that no one is in FEL doing them & thus the opportunity for PvP isn't there. Call it what you want, but for me 1) can only happen in FEL (I'm RED), yet 2) can only happen in TRAM bc that's where EVERYTHING profitable etc happens these days.... END result is I spend 5-10 minutes looking around in FEL for FUN stuff & then switch it up to TRAM & doing stuff that will "get me ahead" & hope to find a fight another time.....
Anyway.....Random PvP thought I had today was making "Finding Fights" easier... What if the killshot in a PvP fight provided the killer with call it a "piece of soul" of who ever you killed? The function of that "Piece of soul" is that the character carrying it can effectively TRACK (as in tracking arrow) the souls original owner? The idea is that you fight and PvP and eventually youv'e got a collection of "pieces of soul" belonging to pepole, & thus allowing you to find those people if they are logged on in Fel. Lots of room for ideas / changes .... only 1 piece in your backpack? Killing someone holding your piece takes it away?? Durations etc?? Maybe these are only earned through arena fights?? who knows.. Just a thought I kinda liked.
All of us pretty much go about our UO lives doing 2 things..
1) Things we Want to be doing .. aka FUN stuff
2) Things we Need to be doing .. aka NOT fun stuff.. bc if it was FUN we'd want to be doing it lol.
PvP for any True PvPer is 1)... It's what we'd be doing the WHOLE time we play UO if we had the option. Generally the rule I operate under (& probabaly most people) is if you cannot do FUN stuff atm then you switch to 2) & do that stuff you feel you NEED to. The MAIN reason PvP had declined is participation imo. If you cannot log on & find a fight then you switch to 2). The problem has become drastically worse though, because for a VERY long time doing Champion spawns in FEL could be considered 2)..... & as a very nice bonus on the side might just become a 1) if you got raided. The problem is that these days Champion spawns are soooooo far down the list of things that NEED doing that no one is in FEL doing them & thus the opportunity for PvP isn't there. Call it what you want, but for me 1) can only happen in FEL (I'm RED), yet 2) can only happen in TRAM bc that's where EVERYTHING profitable etc happens these days.... END result is I spend 5-10 minutes looking around in FEL for FUN stuff & then switch it up to TRAM & doing stuff that will "get me ahead" & hope to find a fight another time.....
Anyway.....Random PvP thought I had today was making "Finding Fights" easier... What if the killshot in a PvP fight provided the killer with call it a "piece of soul" of who ever you killed? The function of that "Piece of soul" is that the character carrying it can effectively TRACK (as in tracking arrow) the souls original owner? The idea is that you fight and PvP and eventually youv'e got a collection of "pieces of soul" belonging to pepole, & thus allowing you to find those people if they are logged on in Fel. Lots of room for ideas / changes .... only 1 piece in your backpack? Killing someone holding your piece takes it away?? Durations etc?? Maybe these are only earned through arena fights?? who knows.. Just a thought I kinda liked.
Since they took away beheading a player and that was an issue in some countries I think, maybe the developers could add a plaque that pops in the players backpack that wins the fight. It could say something like" So and So was killed by what his name."
Could be a nice feature added back into the game and deco on your pk study in your house
I know lame and probably get flack that it would take away developers time away from the game to add something stupid but there was once a system like that in the game. Then again you could always pk your favorite mod, reporter, director, or admin on stratics and show a screenie I will probaly get a message for that comment but hey I couldn't resist. lol
Could be a nice feature added back into the game and deco on your pk study in your house
I know lame and probably get flack that it would take away developers time away from the game to add something stupid but there was once a system like that in the game. Then again you could always pk your favorite mod, reporter, director, or admin on stratics and show a screenie
I will probaly get a message for that comment but hey I couldn't resist. lol
I edited the quote to make it shorter, ifyou wanna read it again, go up a ways.
I agree with what you say. I have helped blues and blue guilds (even jumped in the guilds for a while). I have noticed that many MANY of them do not use vent (and won't use vent) and don't have cart (and, again, won't use cart). Without vent, you can't PvP well, period. You can without cart, but it's pretty hard if you haven' played together before. I know a lot of times I'm looking at my cart map more than my normal screen trying to keep track of everyone in my guild and respond to calls / screams / dismounts / ec.
I think sometimes people would like to PvP, but get frustrated when they realize that it takes a lot of work. Oh, and by the way, a retort to someone way up there... PvP is about skill, yes. But no matter how skilled you are, if you are in a junk suit and mr. spiffy over there has all the best gear, he's gonna beat you up. When faction ranks went haywire a while ago the dci on my archer went down to 35 i think. can't remember exactly, but even with that small change, dexxers were running me all over the place (making me less than thrilled that was). So, yeah, PvPers need to keep their suits up to date because otherwise, well, life sucks for you.
I posted the below in other threads and feel like I need to post it here.
If you want to play an evil char that is fine but don't be upset when that style of playing drives people away or when some one in Fel sees you coming and instantly runs because you are red or have cast a spell on them instead of engaging them in conversation or trying to work with them. In RL if I see a person that I know or really think is up to no good I am not going to stick around to find out what they want if they are headed my way and I can say unless that is the point of the game (not the case in UO as PVP isn't what it is based on) I won't stick around in game either.
Now before someone goes thinking this is a perfect example of an argument from a Trammie let me tell you that my house is in Fel and I first started playing when there was no Trammel. I just really dislike hearing the same thing over and over about "Leading sheep to slaughter/not leading sheep to slaughter", "Give use exclusive content or full access", "I want to make you bring your char to Fel for items yet I don't think I should have to have at least one of my chars blue to access areas out of Fel as that isn't fair".
Unless the Dev's can come up with some magical way to fix the player base I can't truly see the game improving in any way that will attract new and bring back old players.
Ever since the Fel/Tram split items have been added to just one side or the other in an attempt to attract players to each side. As history has shown this has only ever been and will only ever be a temporary solution to the problem. Considering all chars made on the normal prodo shards have access to all land and items (as long as you have the proper expansion) we are only limited by our chosen play style and not by the game itself. Saying this if you really want to look at the reason for a decline in Fel population you need to stop looking at items and content and start looking at the player base itself. The chosen play style of the few have ultimately driven out the many.
If you want to play an evil char that is fine but don't be upset when that style of playing drives people away or when some one in Fel sees you coming and instantly runs because you are red or have cast a spell on them instead of engaging them in conversation or trying to work with them. In RL if I see a person that I know or really think is up to no good I am not going to stick around to find out what they want if they are headed my way and I can say unless that is the point of the game (not the case in UO as PVP isn't what it is based on) I won't stick around in game either.
Now before someone goes thinking this is a perfect example of an argument from a Trammie let me tell you that my house is in Fel and I first started playing when there was no Trammel. I just really dislike hearing the same thing over and over about "Leading sheep to slaughter/not leading sheep to slaughter", "Give use exclusive content or full access", "I want to make you bring your char to Fel for items yet I don't think I should have to have at least one of my chars blue to access areas out of Fel as that isn't fair".
Unless the Dev's can come up with some magical way to fix the player base I can't truly see the game improving in any way that will attract new and bring back old players.
This thread was making some progress and it seems people keep jumping to conclusion and keep talking about luring people where they dont want to go.
Are those who are interested in pvp more concerned with things like correction factions so people can actually achieve rank? Interested in order chaos? Interested in having skills added to the list so that more templates can achieve the 300 combat points? Interested in some spells/weapons being adjusted?
I truly am just concerned with things that help make pvp fun like the diversity of templates, and things being balanced.
I do not care about adding new items to fel.
Is anyone else in the same boat as me?
Are those who are interested in pvp more concerned with things like correction factions so people can actually achieve rank? Interested in order chaos? Interested in having skills added to the list so that more templates can achieve the 300 combat points? Interested in some spells/weapons being adjusted?
I truly am just concerned with things that help make pvp fun like the diversity of templates, and things being balanced.
I do not care about adding new items to fel.
Is anyone else in the same boat as me?
In general I can understand your view Thanatos (and other posters) that certain play styles can and have negatively affected the pvp communities reputation; Pk's being the most used example, griefers and scammers can exist in both facets, but are often attributed to the same type of player. *Attitudes like nonstop trash talking, egos gone wild, and the many man-childs we all deal with at some point in the game definately has not helped us either...* I believe you make it quite evident in your posts that you are an understanding and rational person, so I will not dare to assume that you paint every player of differing play styles with the same brush. Unfortunately it can be seen that others do and it makes discussions of this nature very difficult.
From what I have been able to discern from this thread and the others is; That on the most basic level the majority of the pvp players just want some attention, the purpose of the attention varies from person to person and I don't feel anything is wrong with that as obviously everyone's motivations are different.
The size of the pvp community is also something that currently compounds pvp issues. It is only fair to admit that the pvp play style (being dependent on human interactions and its appeal contingent on a persons attitude) might be in the minority, but it does not make it any less important to people, and an increase in players in this area would certainly still be a good thing for the game.
I still remain passionate that with some needed pvp balance fixes (carefully done, so as not to affect pvm when possible) and the new chaos/order system (obviously still need details, but "simple is better" being the consensus so far) the pvp community could see some improvement until the other big systems (like spawns, which reds would have a bigger stake in) are addressed. In my view the chaos/order system would give *some* pvpers the ability to do the content that is currently tram ruleset only with the added excitement we get from the currently fel only combat, combine that with the pvp balance fixes (considering the success and extent of changes) and I believe it would be reasonable we could see an increase in the pvp community... and less threads of this nature for all the posters that seem so bothered by them.
From what I have been able to discern from this thread and the others is; That on the most basic level the majority of the pvp players just want some attention, the purpose of the attention varies from person to person and I don't feel anything is wrong with that as obviously everyone's motivations are different.
The size of the pvp community is also something that currently compounds pvp issues. It is only fair to admit that the pvp play style (being dependent on human interactions and its appeal contingent on a persons attitude) might be in the minority, but it does not make it any less important to people, and an increase in players in this area would certainly still be a good thing for the game.
I still remain passionate that with some needed pvp balance fixes (carefully done, so as not to affect pvm when possible) and the new chaos/order system (obviously still need details, but "simple is better" being the consensus so far) the pvp community could see some improvement until the other big systems (like spawns, which reds would have a bigger stake in) are addressed. In my view the chaos/order system would give *some* pvpers the ability to do the content that is currently tram ruleset only with the added excitement we get from the currently fel only combat, combine that with the pvp balance fixes (considering the success and extent of changes) and I believe it would be reasonable we could see an increase in the pvp community... and less threads of this nature for all the posters that seem so bothered by them.
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What the player base can do to help itself is make more use of the Arenas - for the purpose they were added. They were intended to give inexperienced players a place to safely try pvp. But they need input from experienced players to learn from that.
Run classes in them. Hold training events, advertise them on the shard boards. Invite people to come try pvp under your guidance.
Run classes in them. Hold training events, advertise them on the shard boards. Invite people to come try pvp under your guidance.
Areanas are good for Duelling and training for duelling, but field fighting is where its at. Learning the layout of the land and how to use it to your advantage is where all the fun is to be had and duelling and field fighting are 2 separate babies. To be able to field fight well you need to learn in the field not in an Arena. What i could teach people in an Arena would just be how to use combos and cross healing. A dismounter need to learn where the best place to stand to dismount the target or how to get off his mount fast and dismount a target everyone has been chasing for miles. A mage needs to learn where he can and cant teleport to, where to lay fields etc. These skill are only learned through field fighting.
But the hardest thing to teach people is to listen and do as they are told when all hell is breaking out around them in a field fight. Focus on a single target and communication. To be successful in PvP you all need to be in Ventrilo and you all need to be able to use it. You would be surprised at how many people don't want to use or talk in Ventrilo. Communication is Key to PvP. Then there is using a Map so you know exactly where everyone is. So at any one time you will be listening to whats being said on Vent, watching the map to see where everyone is and paying attention to whats going on around you in game. All this can only be learned in the field and with many hours of practice. Getting your ass handed back to you many many times is part of the experience, but as long as you learn why you died and don't die in the same manner the next time, it all starts to be fun
The more experienced PvPer does not want to use Areanas due to something i dont see in any other game, and that's a fear of death. Its a pride thing. Most other games you die and nothing is said, but if you die to a duel in Arenas you can expect to be humiliated for a long time to come, the trash talking goes on for months with screen shots posted on the other boards and a whole thread committed to how bad you are at PvP, all down to a single duel.
So yeah Areans are great for duelling, but as crazy as it sounds thats not PvP or at least not the PvP we crave.
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But is it not a valid tool for recruiting?
You want more people to come pvp, but what are you doing to encourage people to try it? Learning to use combos and cross healing is a starting point, getting used to dying is a starting point, and if the pvpers themselves could just possibly learn that
THIS is what causes people to give up trying it and crawl off back to tram
Stop this, and pvp will thrive. Learn to both win and lose GRACEFULLY.
You want more people to come pvp, but what are you doing to encourage people to try it? Learning to use combos and cross healing is a starting point, getting used to dying is a starting point, and if the pvpers themselves could just possibly learn that
THIS is what stops people pvping
THIS is what causes people to give up trying it and crawl off back to tram
Stop this, and pvp will thrive. Learn to both win and lose GRACEFULLY.
This sounds to me like you are interested in PVP only if you can use something to your advantage and have no interest in an actual toe to toe fair fight. A true PVP'er would welcome either an arena fight or an open field fight.
I might be wrong and if so sorry about that but that is just the way I read it.
You see that's the point, those who are trash talking you, want to defeat you. When I was guild master, my members were told that trash talking would get you put out of the guild. But I cant be held responsible for every other guild. Many people can not defeat you in PvP so they try to defeat you in General chat.
If some one says that trash talking is what's keeping them out of PvP then I say, they didn’t really want to PvP in the first place and that by saying they wont join in the fun due to trash talking is just an excuse. You don't have to tune into general chat to hear them trash talking. Its only if your tuned into General chat its going to bother you. They cant trash talk you if your dead, you just run off for a res and leave them trash talking a corpse.
I am going to use my particualr server as an example in GW2 when it comes to PvP and trash talking. Now everybody on my server is on the same side when it comes to WvWvW and you are fighting another server. Everybody is on the same side. Now sPvP your on teams that are pre-made or just pugs but fighting against the same players on your server.
The actual trash talking you think would be more likely sPvP but in truth it's WvWvW. The other side can't see us talk to them. It's the arguing from the few elites with-in that cause drama as we put it. We have our own server Team Speak so everybody can get in and work together. The issue with TS is that only a select few get to talk while the rest are muted. Well you hear the egos of some trashing their own if they dont want to do what the Commander or zerg wants. I know many times that the ones that don't do what the zerg says has saved our server butts before fighting off our enemies where the zerg isn't close enough to get them first.
Many players I am friends with in mutiple guilds wont even get in the TS server because of the trash talk. No one should be berated for trying to help plus enjoy the game as they please. Now it not as bad as it sounds but it is a small issue, and enough of an issue to cause some not want to listen to the players from the same side down players who are on the same side.
Main note of it all people in the end really don't want to listen to drama after dealing with real life. A game is suppose to be fun and enjoyable. A way to relax. Trash talking happens no matter what game you play. It's the level of verbal abuse that may vary with any game and this includes console games btw. Because I may be thick skinned and Fred downinternet lane to the right is, we seem to forget that " I dont deal with drama Joe" may not be so thick skinned and doesn't play that part of the game that I may feel is fun. So some players may totally avoid that part of the game just because of the action of a few.
In truth it may not be the player so called "sucking" at PvP they just don't want to deal with unwanted and useless aggrovation from a mouthy person sitting on a computer because they got butthurt by a so called noob. I mean anybody can be a internet warrior and be rich, good looking, great job, buff, all the women or men love me in real life and have leet gaming skills. 1 vs 1 is way diferent than a zerg then get trash talked for dieing to 3, 4, 6 players and tell you how bad you suck and say Hi to your mom for me, ect ect ect. Seriously I think every man is a model and every woman is a super model because the internet does not lie lol.
No matter what trash talking is part of the issue no matter how we sugar coat it. I highly doubt the same people that act like that in game would act like that in real life. War, DaoC and GW2 has systems in place where you can't trash talk the enemy even if you did because you can't see what they say as the enemy. There must be a reason why that was put in place. Oh yeah because it takes away some of the griefing out of the game. The system isn't perfect but over all it does help.
BTW, I have been guilty of acting that way in the game so I am not pointing fingers at anybody except myself. I either die or win and move on to the next one is how I play it.
The actual trash talking you think would be more likely sPvP but in truth it's WvWvW. The other side can't see us talk to them. It's the arguing from the few elites with-in that cause drama as we put it. We have our own server Team Speak so everybody can get in and work together. The issue with TS is that only a select few get to talk while the rest are muted. Well you hear the egos of some trashing their own if they dont want to do what the Commander or zerg wants. I know many times that the ones that don't do what the zerg says has saved our server butts before fighting off our enemies where the zerg isn't close enough to get them first.
Many players I am friends with in mutiple guilds wont even get in the TS server because of the trash talk. No one should be berated for trying to help plus enjoy the game as they please. Now it not as bad as it sounds but it is a small issue, and enough of an issue to cause some not want to listen to the players from the same side down players who are on the same side.
Main note of it all people in the end really don't want to listen to drama after dealing with real life. A game is suppose to be fun and enjoyable. A way to relax. Trash talking happens no matter what game you play. It's the level of verbal abuse that may vary with any game and this includes console games btw. Because I may be thick skinned and Fred downinternet lane to the right is, we seem to forget that " I dont deal with drama Joe" may not be so thick skinned and doesn't play that part of the game that I may feel is fun. So some players may totally avoid that part of the game just because of the action of a few.
In truth it may not be the player so called "sucking" at PvP they just don't want to deal with unwanted and useless aggrovation from a mouthy person sitting on a computer because they got butthurt by a so called noob. I mean anybody can be a internet warrior and be rich, good looking, great job, buff, all the women or men love me in real life and have leet gaming skills. 1 vs 1 is way diferent than a zerg then get trash talked for dieing to 3, 4, 6 players and tell you how bad you suck and say Hi to your mom for me, ect ect ect. Seriously I think every man is a model and every woman is a super model because the internet does not lie
lol.No matter what trash talking is part of the issue no matter how we sugar coat it. I highly doubt the same people that act like that in game would act like that in real life. War, DaoC and GW2 has systems in place where you can't trash talk the enemy even if you did because you can't see what they say as the enemy. There must be a reason why that was put in place. Oh yeah because it takes away some of the griefing out of the game. The system isn't perfect but over all it does help.
BTW, I have been guilty of acting that way in the game so I am not pointing fingers at anybody except myself. I either die or win and move on to the next one is how I play it.
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All players need to have the right to comment as long as all players keep it civil, PvPers and PvMers alike.
Bringing Fel (PvP/items) up to Par NP but not at the cost to Tram (PvM/items). SORRY IMHO Most PvPers want enticements/nerfs to promote PvP in Fel. Most PvMers do not want thier templates ruined in the name of PvP and are willing to give Equal content to Fel as long as Fel is willing to give up thier content.
The Devs need to hear all comments Pro/Con because IMHO every time you hear 'We want blah blah blah in Fel" a lot of times Tram players feal that the Devs do not give the same weight to them on these matters.
I don't know what most of these so called PvPers are talking about. I don't go to Fel to earn anything or to attack people who clearly aren't able to defend themselves.
I go there to PvP and the sheer excitement of the fight is enough for me.
People in my guild (which is probably 75% PvMer and 25% PvPers) know that I don't care about scrolls of any kind or gold or replicas or any sort of pixel in any form. Yet I show up to every champ/harrower/idoc/gate fight that they're doin if I'm on just to hang out, help work the spawn or just stand there BSing until the inevitable raid comes.
I PvP to PvP.
With that said.. IMO the only ways to get more people to PvP is to get rid of the reasons people stop PvPing.
1. Do something about all the damn cheaters. Especially all the people running speeder programs.
2. Stop all the crap talking. General chat and board crap talkers should be beaten down in RL.
3. Stop killing everyone and everything that moves. If the other person is clearly not a PvPer, leave them alone (unless @ a champ/harry)
4. Stop introducing OPed crap and then nerfing it 6 months later. People get sick of changing their entire char/suit/weapons all the time.
Most of the problems listed above are created by the PvPers themselves. And while the Devs should do something to stop 3rd party program use in both Fel and Tram, so called "uber pvpers" could turn their speeder and auto heal programs off. But given the attitudes of most PvPers I've dealt with in 12 years, the win at all cost mentality prevents them from doing what is right.
I go there to PvP and the sheer excitement of the fight is enough for me.
People in my guild (which is probably 75% PvMer and 25% PvPers) know that I don't care about scrolls of any kind or gold or replicas or any sort of pixel in any form. Yet I show up to every champ/harrower/idoc/gate fight that they're doin if I'm on just to hang out, help work the spawn or just stand there BSing until the inevitable raid comes.
I PvP to PvP.
With that said.. IMO the only ways to get more people to PvP is to get rid of the reasons people stop PvPing.
1. Do something about all the damn cheaters. Especially all the people running speeder programs.
2. Stop all the crap talking. General chat and board crap talkers should be beaten down in RL.
3. Stop killing everyone and everything that moves. If the other person is clearly not a PvPer, leave them alone (unless @ a champ/harry)
4. Stop introducing OPed crap and then nerfing it 6 months later. People get sick of changing their entire char/suit/weapons all the time.
Most of the problems listed above are created by the PvPers themselves. And while the Devs should do something to stop 3rd party program use in both Fel and Tram, so called "uber pvpers" could turn their speeder and auto heal programs off. But given the attitudes of most PvPers I've dealt with in 12 years, the win at all cost mentality prevents them from doing what is right.
And those are all your fellow PvPers doing all that trash talknot the PvMers or the Tram side of the house.
Why isn't it PvP? Isn't it Player V Player? So what is it you really crave in PvP? Encentives?
You can't really do toe to toe. In a lot of cases dexers will talk a big game, then when they set the rules they will turn off summons, fields, and maybe heal pots when they are fighting a mage. A lot of people try to go to the arena and then set rules where a mage for example can't use a vast majority of their pvp spells.
Tips hat!
That won't change anything, also there are options to ignore a player, and not be in chat. OR-Learn that sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never harm me.
I dont care who does the trash talking, I enjoy reading the trash talking.
Only a none PvPer could make that last stament. Fail :loser:
Humiliation is a powerful tool that some people abuse to everyone's cost. words can and do hurt people.
It is not unknown in RL for verbal abuse to drive people to suicide. Words may not hurt you, who have lots of self confidence. Not everyone has.
It is not unknown in RL for verbal abuse to drive people to suicide. Words may not hurt you, who have lots of self confidence. Not everyone has.