What would get You to Felucca?

[Connor_Graham]

No, PvP IS UO's end game, there is nothing harder.

Hard or not doesn't determine an end game in UO. There are a lot of people that only play UO for crafting, so for them end game would be the high end runics.

For PvM'rs, Peerless and Doom type creatures would be end game.

PvP is only an end game if you happen to PvP.

 

[Violence]

"Talking down to the largest group of players in UO as if you're only a "Big Boy or Girl"..."

I can't be responsible if someone gets insulted by this. It's just a figure of speech and I declared my intentions. Plus I'm tired with all the literacy and semantics mini-game of these Forums. If you want to think I'm insulting you, using it as an argument against coming to Fel you can stay in Trammel. Nobody's forcing you.
If you lived in the US and didn't join the Marines, would you mail the Army Office telling them you find it insulting that they advertize the Marines are real men and everyone else are not? Because that's what they do if you take their advertisements so literally as you took my post. I sure hope you wouldn't do that. So lighten up.

Furthermore I want to change no mind-set. Just if you want PC opponents jump through the gate. PC opponents are the real challenge in combat and bots are inadequate opponents, making up for it by having too many HPs and casting abilities to even be fun to fight anymore.

And yes a PvPer is far more efficient in combat than a PvMer on average. A PvPer can PvM whereas a PvMer cannot always PvP and if they do, then they become more efficient in PvM combat as well as a side bonus. Heightened reflexes etc. In that context it was that I used "Big boys and girls." okay? You can't expect me to admit a crafter being better at PvP than a PvPer so that you personally don't get jumpy.

Sorry to hear you can't enjoy a pint every now and then. It might help a lot.

Again no offense by any of this and no, I have not served in the Marines nor do I wish to!

 

[Sneaky Que]

I can't stand the idea of there being a living breathing person making sport of opposing to me in this sort of community game.

It bothers you that much that a player is killing you, as opposed to an NPC? Why?

I'll take a stab.

1. It's because the BEST AI in the game, is nothing compared to the intelligence of even a very average player. This makes players (generally) harder than NPCs, which for people like you is a bad thing, obviously.

2. You dont like competition.

3. For some reason you do not think that in an MMORPG (thats Massively Multilayer Online...) like UO (the MMORPG no less), that the game play should resemble Ultima meets The Sims. Thats not UO.

4. You think you are playing a single player game where there is no PvP at all. Thats not UO, UO is an MMORPG.

If there I'm wrong at all please tell me, and let me know exactly why.

This "community sort of game" USED to have a REAL community, back when it was only Britannia and no Tram/Fel. People actually relied on each other, worked together, actually interacted with each other. Real UO community interaction is very rare these days. But I can tell you, that your idea of UO's community is completely off, something more along the lines of this type of community. Thats not UO.

UO is a game about virtues, evil, villains, monsters, death, glory, magic, etc... etc... if you want to log into UO and use it as a chat room client, then good for you, but some of us like a challenge.

Having said that, you did say...

Best to ignore me from your brainstorming.

So I guess you are not trying to inflict your play style on Fel. I only wish that people would of adopted this attitude of not trying to ruin other peoples fun pre-Ren, before it was to late. The game UO was, is NOT the game it is now. The way UO is now is NOT what UO was meant to be.

I dont understand why people like you, who have this viewpoint of no competition in an MMO, started to play UO in the first place?

 

[Sarphus]

To the OP. Do away with Champ Spawns, and put Powerscrolls on monsters of all types in Felucca. 20's of course would only fall as loot off of the higher ups. More players would come to Felucca to hunt for a chance at a PS. Pks/Reds etc; would then have their "meat" they so crave, but they would have to actually scout around and find their victims, instead of checking a web cam to see where they are. As it is, only a well organized guild has any shot at PS's, so give the reward that people want, for the risk that they take.

I do play in fel and occasionally Siege, but I wanted to respond to this.

I don't think Champ spawns should be eliminated, but I support adding PS as occasional loot off other fel spawns. I think it would be OK for 20 PS to occasionally drop to you pack while slaying high-end fel creatures such as:
greater dragons
ancient wyrms
shadow wyrms
ancient liches
balrons
succubus
Tentacles of the harrower (khaldun & harrower)
Fel Peerless, but something would have to be done to allow raiding of peerless
Lurg
Abscess
Putrifier
Coil
Tangle

Naturally, if you can only get 20's off monsters in select areas people will just scout those areas with scripts, so I think other high-end monsters should be added to other dungeons.

A special ogres could be added to Despise
A special arctic ogre lords and possibly a greater ice wyrm could be added to ice dungeon
Greater Elementals could be added to shame (spread accross levels)
Ancient liches could be added to covetous
Some uber humanoid could be added to wrong
Ancient liches could be added to deceit
Fire dungeon could get an ancient lich or 2

I think that would cover enough of the UO map to make pks actively scout rather than just checking a cam.

Also, I think the drop rate should scale based on the overall power of the creatures being killed. All the newer creatures are stronger than the older creatures.

 

[Sarphus]

Felucca is endgame. Felucca is fun.

For you maybe, not for the majority of people that play UO. Fel and PvP is one OPTION of an endgame, but is not the only one.

No, PvP IS UO's end game, there is nothing harder.

LOL

but seriously...

This elitest attitue (generally held by players that only pvp) is not only silly, but also counterproductive to the cause of getting more people to fel.

PVP isn't any harder than high end pvm. It's just different. PVP isn't UO's end game. UO is MUCH bigger than that. PVP is just a PORTION of UO's endgame. People who only PVP also only play part of UO. Then again, most people only play part or parts of UO.

If your statement were true, you wouldn't see people raiding a spawn and then dieing to the spawn. This is something I DO see.

If you pidgeon hole yourself into only playing pvp, there's a good chance you won't be able to do endgame pvm content as well as a pvm-focused player. Of course, you can keep telling the pvm focused players that you're superior because pvp is harder (a laughably incorrect statement), but that will only artificially stoke your ego.

AI isn't the only component for difficulty. High end pvm cuts corners to make up for weaker-than-player AI. Sure, you might be smarter than a monster, but that doesn't mean the monster won't kill you. I'll use a story to illustrate my point.

I was lead-taming a greater dragon, so I was on foot and definitely on a pvm char (provoke/tamer with magery). Some red mage tried to gank me while I was lead taming. I responded by teleporting (to buy time), invising, mounting my ethy and then provoking a couple greater dragons on him. He died repeatedly, because the power of the greater dragons that I provoked on him made up for their weaker-than-player AI.

So anyway... you can keep damaging fel with your elitest attitude, but it sure won't make you look elite to me. You'll just be an elitest.

 

[Sarphus]

It bothers you that much that a player is killing you, as opposed to an NPC? Why?

I'll take a stab.

1. It's because the BEST AI in the game, is nothing compared to the intelligence of even a very average player. This makes players (generally) harder than NPCs, which for people like you is a bad thing, obviously.

2. You dont like competition.

3. For some reason you do not think that in an MMORPG (thats Massively Multilayer Online...) like UO (the MMORPG no less), that the game play should resemble Ultima meets The Sims. Thats not UO.

4. You think you are playing a single player game where there is no PvP at all. Thats not UO, UO is an MMORPG.
...

Someone could just as easily enumerate points to why you only pvp.

1. You don't like dieing to those "stupid" monsters.

2. You don't like competition from "stupid" monsters

3. NPC's don't respond to trash talk

4. You think pvm is always non-cooperative (PS some people solo pvp btw... it's not all gank squads)

 

[Violence]

"..But also counterproductive to the cause of getting more people.."

If you don't wanna come, don't. That's always been true, from beginning to end of this thread. It's not meant as bait to lure Trammel players into Fel. You're the ones acting like it is to be honest.

"PvP isn't any harder than high end PvM. It's just different."

You clearly have not had big enough a share of top-end item, top-end template fights against experienced people. You're all ..

"If your statement were true, you wouldn't see people raiding a spawn and then dieing to the spawn. This is something I DO see. "

I also see that. Because those are templates made to PvP in a situation that may require them to PVM. There is a lot of data to perceive in such situations and you cannot generalize. Sometimes the protectors of a raiding party in Fel have to actively PvM resulting in what you describe if it is a do-or-die like when the PvMers have all died and the place is getting crowded. No need to expand on this, you either get it or you don't.

"If you pidgeon hole yourself into only playing PVP, there's a good chance you won't be able to do Endgame PVM content as well as a PVM-focused player."

I have pidgeon-holed myself into PvP. I can do high-end mobs and bosses better or just as good as any PvMer I've encountered GIVEN THE RIGHT TEMPLATE AND ITEMS. That speaks volumes. And I do have the right templates and items in my account so this is not hot air. Again, a PvP PLAYER(Not character) can PvM much more sufficiently.

"High end PvM cuts corners to make up for weaker-than-player AI. Sure, you might be smarter than a monster, but that doesn't mean the monster won't kill you."

Your story is HPs and Damage/Casting Vs. Human Intelligence and you just made my point. PvM is weaker as a mental task. Face it. It has nothing to do with discrimination either, just facts.

I don't care how I look to you. Honestly. It's not a staring contest. The only guys I see acting elitist are traders, in Ultima. My last words on the whole issue too. rolleyes:

 

[Connor_Graham]

LOL

but seriously...

This elitest attitue (generally held by players that only pvp) is not only silly, but also counterproductive to the cause of getting more people to fel.

PVP isn't any harder than high end pvm. It's just different. PVP isn't UO's end game. UO is MUCH bigger than that. PVP is just a PORTION of UO's endgame. People who only PVP also only play part of UO. Then again, most people only play part or parts of UO.

If your statement were true, you wouldn't see people raiding a spawn and then dieing to the spawn. This is something I DO see.

If you pidgeon hole yourself into only playing pvp, there's a good chance you won't be able to do endgame pvm content as well as a pvm-focused player. Of course, you can keep telling the pvm focused players that you're superior because pvp is harder (a laughably incorrect statement), but that will only artificially stoke your ego.

AI isn't the only component for difficulty. High end pvm cuts corners to make up for weaker-than-player AI. Sure, you might be smarter than a monster, but that doesn't mean the monster won't kill you. I'll use a story to illustrate my point.

I was lead-taming a greater dragon, so I was on foot and definitely on a pvm char (provoke/tamer with magery). Some red mage tried to gank me while I was lead taming. I responded by teleporting (to buy time), invising, mounting my ethy and then provoking a couple greater dragons on him. He died repeatedly, because the power of the greater dragons that I provoked on him made up for their weaker-than-player AI.

So anyway... you can keep damaging fel with your elitest attitude, but it sure won't make you look elite to me. You'll just be an elitest.

I've got to say I agree completely with this, and the other 2 posts you just made. I couldn't have put it any better myself, and actually think you were able to put it better than I might have considering my sarcastic tendencies.

Anyway, just wanted to say good job.

*applause*

 

[D'Amavir]

This elitest attitue (generally held by players that only pvp) is not only silly, but also counterproductive to the cause of getting more people to fel..

Actually, and if you read the boards you would know this, there are just as many people if not more that hate anything pvp related and consider those that enjoy it to all be 'punks', 'griefers' or 'immature'. Sounds pretty elitist to me.

I know, tunnel vision is common on the internet and most people like you just see what they want to see. But at least look around at the things going on on this board before you make silly comments like that.

That's not to say that there isn't any 'elitist' attitudes on these boards. I am not stupid enough to think that. But, I am not stupid enough to think that every Fel player falls into that category. Nor does every Trammel player.

 

[Connor_Graham]

If you don't wanna come, don't. That's always been true, from beginning to end of this thread. It's not meant as bait to lure Trammel players into Fel. You're the ones acting like it is to be honest.

Actually, the OP is the one that's acting like it is. Obviously you didn't actually read the title of the thread:

What would get You to Felucca?

The whole thread is about what would get Tram only players to Fel.

I don't know what thread you think you've been reading, but that's what we're discussing here.

 

[Violence]

I gotta love this, another semantics round. Just right after I said I wouldn't reply, and minutes before I log. This is so very provocative..! So here, my last effort to get through to you.

Read your own reply, the first part!
"WHAT WOULD GET YOU?",

NOT
"WHAT CAN WE DO TO GET YOU?".
NEITHER
"HOW CAN WE GET YOU?"
NOT EVEN
"WHAT SHOULD WE CHANGE ABOUT US TO GET YOU?".
CERTAINLY NOT
"WHAT CAN WE DO FOR YOU TO COME GET KILLED?".

It's about suggesting adding or removing something to make Felucca(AND NOT FELUCCANS) more to your liking. INDEPENDENTLY FROM ITS DENIZENS.

Yet here you are telling me(and indirectly all Feluccans?) my attitude is keeping you guys away from Fel instead of suggesting things like the Scrolls dropping on Mobs like that other guy did. And from there it got derailed.
So who's off topic? We're not discussing my attitude as a player or poster. You just centralized on the fact you got insulted by something I said here because you take everything too seriously.

And then Sarphus came along talking about elitists. Forget about the FELUCCANS and talk about FELUCCA as a place, as a loot system, as a monster spawning area. People will come and go.

You know what, I don't come to Trammel for the "good fellas I find there" either. If anything most Trammel players are sooooooo spoiled(in a game sense) to be honest. Sure we got insurance in Felucca too, but that doesn't make us real lamers.

And most of the trash-talkers reside in Trammel. Because there, you cannot kill them and nobody makes(I'm sure that's how they see it) them go trash-talking.

Anyway have a nice night, peace.

 

[Fluffi]

First off, that was me you were replying to.

Secondly, I would love to see someone with macro's out do the mentioned script. Really.

I'm not sure which type of script you were referring to, so I'll address both the PvM and PvP versions.

Fighting PvP scripters:
I do not claim to be an elite PvPer - far from it.
I have a passing familiarity with the scripts available for the "makes UO less difficult" program, and I can often recognise when one of these is being used.
The majority of scripts seem to work on the pricipal of "if xxx happens, do yyy", so to combat these I use "disprupt the script" tactics.
I know my macro actions will never be as fast as somebodys' CPU, but I get enough kills by doing unexpected stuff to have perma-reds, and a mage who yoyos between red and blue..
There are, however, some people I can never kill... whether that is because they have incredibly complex custom scripts, or whether they are simply better at PvP than me is something I can never know. (I tend to think the second option.)

Competing against PvM scripters:
I have seen the results of someone using a PvM combination script against Swoop. I know they were scripting, as they posted details on a non-Stratics forum.
Neither I, nor the other hunters - all with high-end PvM characters, could compete with this guy.
He couldn't kill us with this Trammel script, but he could outdo our earning by a factor of 10; thus giving him a huge advantage over all the other Trammel PvMers.


Synopsis:
Scripting exists on both facets.
In Felucca, PvP scripts can be beaten because no script can truly account for the fact that human intervention can be more random than monster AI can ever be. It is possible to get a minor victory over the scripter by doing something wierd, which kills them or forces their script to recall.
In Trammel, PvM scripts cannot be beaten as monster AI conforms to a set pattern, and combat becomes simply a matter of "can I do this quick enough."
The only way to defeat the Trammel scripter is to page, and hope that a GM actually comes, and that the script doesn't have a player-alert function built in.

It's not the fact that scripts are more or less in fel/tram, it has to do with the fact that they use scripts. And as several people who PvP alot have said to me ingame and have pm'ed me, you have to script to compete in PvP, if you don't want to script, don't come to fel.

I'll leave it to the rest of the Feluccan population to comment on what you have been told ingame: I'm sure that if a PvP muppet like me can get kills against scripters, then the better PvPers (of whom there are many), can certainly do likewise, and maybe you could as well.

If you want to use the "I won't go to Felucca 'cos its full of scripters" argument, that's fine; but perhaps you should then also consider "I won't hunt or collect resources in Trammel 'cos it's full of scripters."

 

[CatLord]

Sarphus spoke truly and to the point...

Your posts are constructive and most likely the best solution so far.




For those that want a math equation to explain felluca...

FELL= cheating to control the spawns = powerscrolls = gold = $...


Destroy the intrinsic value of powerscrolls and you will destroy most Fellucan guilds economical structure... and prolly alot of players monthly income.

 

[Sarphus]

Actually, and if you read the boards you would know this, there are just as many people if not more that hate anything pvp related and consider those that enjoy it to all be 'punks', 'griefers' or 'immature'. Sounds pretty elitist to me.

I know, tunnel vision is common on the internet and most people like you just see what they want to see. But at least look around at the things going on on this board before you make silly comments like that.

That's not to say that there isn't any 'elitist' attitudes on these boards. I am not stupid enough to think that. But, I am not stupid enough to think that every Fel player falls into that category. Nor does every Trammel player.

I wasn't making a blanket statement. I was responding to a specific statement that was expressing an elitest attitude.

I don't think Fel is UO's endcame. I think Fel is PART of UO's endgame. Some pvpers think they are better than trammelites just because their choice game is pvp. I think that's wrong.

I see myself as a bit of a neutral in this whole debate. I do trammel stuff, I pvp and I have lots of friends that focus exclusively on either playstyle. I'm in the middle trying to play the whole game.

 

[Sarphus]

Sarphus spoke truly and to the point...

Your posts are constructive and most likely the best solution so far.




For those that want a math equation to explain felluca...

FELL= cheating to control the spawns = powerscrolls = gold = $...


Destroy the intrinsic value of powerscrolls and you will destroy most Fellucan guilds economical structure... and prolly alot of players monthly income.

Though I wouldn't take it as far to say it's good to destroy the value of items, but you already knew that

 

[Sarphus]

An enhanced faction system would be fun. Someone made a post today about order/chaos and it really took me back. Viable pvp systems are fun!

Also, if there was something for my thief to steal, I'd be on that char a lot.

 

[D'Amavir]

ISome pvpers think they are better than trammelites just because their choice game is pvp. I think that's wrong.

I agree with that completely. Just as some Trammel players think they are better than pvp'ers because of their choices. And some Siege players think they are better than prod players. The list is endless of groups that think they are somehow better than anyone else in this game. Not saying that you are one of those, I am speaking just in general.

Its important to remember that there is good and bad in everyone. We learn to live, we learn to give each other what we need to survive. Together alive.

Sorry, my McCartney channeling skill took over there for a second.

 

[kelmo]

I agree with that completely. Just as some Trammel players think they are better than pvp'ers because of their choices. And some Siege players think they are better than prod players. The list is endless of groups that think they are somehow better than anyone else in this game. Not saying that you are one of those, I am speaking just in general.

Its important to remember that there is good and bad in everyone. We learn to live, we learn to give each other what we need to survive. Together alive.

Sorry, my McCartney channeling skill took over there for a second.

I am die hard Siege. I would promise, from this point on I will never impose my style on yours. There is plenty of room in this game...

 

[D'Amavir]

I am die hard Siege. I would promise, from this point on I will never impose my style on yours. There is plenty of room in this game...

What people seem to not get is that I am very pro Siege. I love the concept of it and I love a lot about it. I am an old school player from back before Trammel popped up. I appreciate that aspect of Siege. Its just that there are some flaws that I don't really dig and can't accept about it.

And I love that Siege players have some much love for their shard. I wish my shard caused that sort of feeling from me. But its flawed as well. I know that and I accept that. Its just where I have been for many many years. I would fly to Siege if it wasn't for the things that I don't like about it. Its just, for me, that the flaws outweigh the plusses. That's clearly not the case for Siege players and I get that.

 

[Sneaky Que]

It bothers you that much that a player is killing you, as opposed to an NPC? Why?

I'll take a stab.

1. It's because the BEST AI in the game, is nothing compared to the intelligence of even a very average player. This makes players (generally) harder than NPCs, which for people like you is a bad thing, obviously.

2. You dont like competition.

3. For some reason you do not think that in an MMORPG (thats Massively Multilayer Online...) like UO (the MMORPG no less), that the game play should resemble Ultima meets The Sims. Thats not UO.

4. You think you are playing a single player game where there is no PvP at all. Thats not UO, UO is an MMORPG.
...

Someone could just as easily enumerate points to why you only pvp.

Huge mistake to assume that I only PvP. I have been playing UO since 98, trust me, there is not much PvM in UO that I have not done. I spawn almost every day (which is high end PvM when no crashing involved).

1. You don't like dieing to those "stupid" monsters.

No, actually, I don't have a problem with dying to anything in UO, even a mongbat FFS, its part of the game, and is a reason why many people stay in Tram, they are scared of dying.

2. You don't like competition from "stupid" monsters

Actually, your wrong, PvPers need PvM to make cash and get their items! I enjoy PvM quite a bit, although not as much as PvP.

3. NPC's don't respond to trash talk

Since I don't trash talk much in game, or respond to others who do it to me, this is not a concern for me, anyone who knows me in game should be able to vouch for this.

4. You think pvm is always non-cooperative (PS some people solo pvp btw... it's not all gank squads)

Huh? I think everyone solo PvMs? Is that what your saying? Seriously...


You have made a huge error, PvM and PvP have NOTHING to do with Tram vs Fel. In Fel, ALL play styles are catered for, there is no discrimination (like there is in Tram) against any one play style. This debate is NOT about PvM vs PvP.

 

[Sneaky Que]

Hard or not doesn't determine an end game in UO. There are a lot of people that only play UO for crafting, so for them end game would be the high end runics.

Point taken on the crafters, however, it doesn't matter what your preferred play style is, as far as the things that are available to do in the game go, PvP is by far the hardest (requires the most skill, time invested, training, etc etc).

For PvM'rs, Peerless and Doom type creatures would be end game.

Harrower??

PvP is only an end game if you happen to PvP.

Ahh, I will give it to you, this is true. HOWEVER, out of all the things in UO, PvP is the hardest, so, out of all the things to do in UO (PvP/PvM/PvE all included) PvP is UO's end game, generally speaking.

 

[trammelite]

after having read, smiled over and shook head about the whole flame war in this thread, i want to raise a question:

what would make you buy a red car ?

my personal answer would be, "if it was blue."

for me that simply summarizes the whole discussion here:

we are different, we consider different things good/bad/tempting/disgusting, we have a different opinion of what game experience we want to have and which game/how we want to play.
i doubt peoples minds can be changed with a discussion like this, even so it was entertaining to a certain extent

i mean, my spouse cant even convince me to squeeze the tube of toothpaste at the bottom instead of the top

 

[Amren]

I dunno,
Maybe if the PvP system in UO was actually fun. Right now it's a gank fest, He who brings the most friends and has the best UOA macros will always win.

Look at games like WoW and WAR. They have meaningful pvp on a global scale. Heck even AoC does and that game was an epic failure.