The Real Problem With PvP

[AzSel]

I agree with the OP. Consumables needs to be nerfed somehow, Id like to see longer timers, specially on Enchanted Apples.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

Why do people consider Slower, Simpler PvP, with less than Half of the Tactics Existing today, a better example of Player skill, compared to today's PvPers Average Skill.

Because they didn't suck at it. Period.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

You really think not 1 dexer is skilled? There's a huge difference between a skilled dexer and just a standard newb attempting to learn pvp starting at the basics.

No, there is no such thing as a skilled dexxer. Anybody who has a basic grasp on PvP can play a dexxer. The only reason there are dexxers better than others is due to their template. If you consider building a template skill, then yes dexxers take skill to play. Otherwise, no.

 

[Macrophage]

I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere, but it is long overdue. Pots/Consumables have been slowly destroying PvP for years now. I don't understand how such extremely overpowered items are able to be used at no cost to the user. Yes, you have to buy them but let's be serious, I can buy 10,000 of each for 1-2m which will last probably until UO comes to an end.

Nearly every single player relies HEAVILY upon pots and consumables, which take 0 skill points to use and 0 skill in PvP to use. Mage PvP is almost entirely based on being able to keep your opponent poisoned, and incapable of healing. The reason Mages are so ineffective without overpowered skills such as mysticism is because pots and consumables are taking over PvP.

This doesn't relate just to 1v1 battles. Group fighting has been greatly destroyed by these items as well. Before everyone chugged, group fighting relied heavily on teamwork. If an individual was being dumped by a group, they would almost certainly die without a cross-heal. This is no longer the case, as all the player has to do is apple, cure pot, heal pot and be able to live through any reasonable dump. This allows (which is what most guilds do nowadays) for everyone to basically fight by themselves, without any real sense of team work.

Potential fixes:

1. Increase all consumable timers to 1-2 minutes INCLUDING CURE POTS. I have no idea why cure pots do not have a timer being as they are the most commonly used pot of all.

2. Require a skill (alchemy for example) to be able to use such consumables.

3. The best option in my opinion, remove consumables entirely from UO. There is absolutely no valid reason for these being a part of the game. If they were removed, a vast number of templates would be revived, and PvP would return to its great glory.

For those who would like to see balance in UO PvP once again, look no further than ending this ridiculous trend. I can't begin to describe how much better PvP will become without consumables in UO.

1. I don't agree. Cure potions are mandatory for a lot of pvm aspects of the game.
2. Everyone should be able to use pots. Everyone was able to use cure pots in the old time and it never prevented people from pvping. The timers on potions are fine as is. They just need to balance apples so to open more possibilities in PvP (like having chivalry usefull).
3. They just need to be balanced, not removed.

I do agree on the problem but not on the solution. In the past, even pre pub16, it was possible to kill someone with two people synchronizing a explo/flame combo (provided the flame would go off). Nowadays, it s not possible, unless the target is cursed and well time Omened. Which wont happen if he/She is eating an apple. Nerfing apples and mystics is the thing to do!

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

1. I don't agree. Cure potions are mandatory for a lot of pvm aspects of the game.

Um, I cannot think of one scenario in which you would need cure pots in PvM. They are in no way mandatory in PvM or PvP. If you do, you aren't very good at PvM...

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

It's ok restroom, you'll be back to being a bad mage soon. Let it pour big guy.

Why troll my post with nonsense? Even if we go pure mage field fight I will still put you in your place. Pour big? I am not the one crying here lol.

Again, the WHOLE point of your thread is that your 7 ping connection is not winning you all the fights these days...so you come here to cry about it. Just like you cried after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th time you died to me. Remember, I at least mentioned *good fight* afterword...while all you did was rage not only when I was around you...but also in gen. chat for the following 30 minutes.

Just shut up about pvp nerfs already, mmk pinglet?

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Congrats Restroom. Did you flush him when you were done?

flushed him 5 times outta 6...I agreed to fight him no pots 100 ping vs. his 7 and he won...

when I asked him to fight me on another shard even ping no pots he refused claiming he knew better than to play shards he pinged badly to.

so...take this thread with a grain of salt...some people are just REALLY poor losers.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Um, I cannot think of one scenario in which you would need cure pots in PvM. They are in no way mandatory in PvM or PvP. If you do, you aren't very good at PvM...

I guess you don't pvm much. Many of the EM monsters out there now not only have area deadly poison but also area effect spells.

Also, who are you to judge? 93 ping difference between you and I and you got floored, so now you are complaining about potions...again, all because you got your rear handed to you.

so hey devs, how about we cater to people who call nerf when they die to a better player?

BTW...would you like me to post the screen shots where you called me a cheater because you said I chugged cure pots too fast?

WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

You're just full of ignorant statements.

You really think not 1 dexer is skilled? There's a huge difference between a skilled dexer and just a standard newb attempting to learn pvp starting at the basics.

Seems to me you're fussy about something.

A good dexxer uses about 1/3 of the keys a good mage does.

The best asset to a dexxer is the ability of staying on their opponents rear...whereas the best asset of a mage is spellplay.

 

[copycon]

It takes far too much energy to respond to you people. LOL

Personally, I think that PvP on a level playing field is far more challenging than PvP on a skewed playing field. The spells, weapons etc that were added by themselves are not the problem. It is the modifiers to those spells and items that has severely limited the skill that was necessary to compete during pre-AoS PvP.

If any of you want to debate this with me I'd be glad to continue.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

This is what I will NEVER understand about these forums. If you don't participate in PvP and this has nothing to do with you, why on earth are you posting about it? I've PvP'd for at least 6 years now please don't sit there and pretend like you know more about it than I do because you went to yew gate, died, and said well that wasn't fun I'm going back to tram! PvP might not be fun for YOU, because you most certainly suck at it and never took the time to become better, but don't generalize all of us into your dungeon crawling, button mashing, repetitive style of game play. For a lot of people, PvP is the ONLY reason they still play UO, myself included.

So why don't you leave the discussion to people who actually give a ****. Thanks.

Wow, you must be really down on yourself to be picking on people telling them they suck. Did you know that I am a trammy? Did you know that I am an RPer? Did you realize yet that you got spanked by a care bear?

Who are you to talk down to the carebears like myself? You got your butt handed to you via skittles and rainbows pinglet!

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

It takes far too much energy to respond to you people. LOL

Personally, I think that PvP on a level playing field is far more challenging than PvP on a skewed playing field. The spells, weapons etc that were added by themselves are not the problem. It is the modifiers to those spells and items that has severely limited the skill that was necessary to compete during pre-AoS PvP.

If any of you want to debate this with me I'd be glad to continue.

Well, I wont disagree with all of that but def some. First off, apples taste nothing like oranges...so its tough to compare the two. IMO, items... spells...better weps and suits...these all made pvp more fluid and challenging. As the years have gone by, the learning curve to pvp has gone through the roof. Pre-aos is like the stone age...the spells and combat slow and honestly boring. These days you need to be quick on your toes or you are dead in the water. The combined elements to me make things that much more enjoyable than the days of old.

 

[copycon]

Well, I wont disagree with all of that but def some. First off, apples taste nothing like oranges...so its tough to compare the two. IMO, items... spells...better weps and suits...these all made pvp more fluid and challenging. As the years have gone by, the learning curve to pvp has gone through the roof. Pre-aos is like the stone age...the spells and combat slow and honestly boring. These days you need to be quick on your toes or you are dead in the water. The combined elements to me make things that much more enjoyable than the days of old.

Touche. I understand that the learning curve has increased, and as I said before, I don't see that as a problem in itself. The problem that I see is that PvP today revolves largely around how much gold someone has to invest in their items (power scrolls, armor, weapons etc) than the actual skill involved to win or lose a fight.

As an example, someone who has 100.0 Eval Int, 100.0 Resist and so on would stand MUCH less of a chance to win a fight over someone who has 120.0 Eval Int and 120.0 Resist, or you can adapt the same theory to an "uber" item. That should not be, but it is true, and that is my point.

 

[Smoot]

You want to know why people chug cure pots endlessly.... that is easy. The early days of the dp spamming dexers. If you removed cure pots, alsmost every dexer will have poison. Instead of balance we now have a one way dp poison cannon and poison fields. I really don't want to hear arch cure arguement either. It is hard to get that off if the dex guy has you poisoned and knows what to do.

Back to the origional statement though, i agree the timers are too short. Removing buff food/pots is not going to happen as they keep adding more. If you remove pots, you will need to change how often dp can be done and a few other things.

Pvp was really fun for me maybe 3 or 4 years ago. I pvped mostly on a nox-pally (with about 100 chiv), a nox mage, a dexter samurai, and a pure mage.

Now, what is different about now and back then is the gear. You couldnt spam deadly poison then (most people only had 1 or 2 really good dp weapons) so thats 12-24 charges, which would run out very quickly if you didnt use them tactfully. I can see someone spamming now (you could carry 20 pvp krysses all imbued to be exactly the same) but the cure pots cancel it out so its not worth doing.

Not everyone could chug before imbuing. It was very hard to incorporate enhance potions into a suit before imbuing. Now its easier than killing a mongbat. For those without EP in their suits, greater cure pots didnt always cure deadly poison, it might take 3 or four for them to work.

I never used pots back then, i used chiv to cure, and cure spell on my mages, or bandages with high healing on my dexter. This made skills as usefull and alot cheaper than items. If you didnt have the particular skill, or items, your character had other strengths. Just like some people run without majic resist in favor of another skill.

So yeah, pvp now is boring for me. I only pvp when i have to like when defending a champ spawn. And yeah mages without necro or mysticism really cant kill anyone in pvp.

 

[Wojoe]

Pots need some work i agree...I would also like the never ending spamming of special moves removed.

 

[Korik Bloodguard]

Honestly, the real problem with PvP is that not enough people are doing it.

Now, whether that's out of fear, insecurity, anxiety, control issues, inability, lack of skill, passivity, slow reaction times, getting too old for play, who knows? But what we really need is just more people doing it

EA just needs to do something to develop a PvP system that removes these crippling and retarding behaviors I mentioned above as factors of success within the system.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

Also, who are you to judge? 93 ping difference between you and I and you got floored, so now you are complaining about potions...again, all because you got your rear handed to you.

If you spent half as much as you do talking yourself up on forums PvP'ing you might actually be decent. Keep talking...it's all you're good at.

(I have yet to see you PvP on Atlantic)

 

[Aragon100]

You are missing the point of the statement. I thought I would clarify for you (and people like you) what is meant by referring to the "skill" that was required pre-AoS as compared to now.

The difference in PvP "skill" between eras is a result of the mechanics of the game that were changed. The best examples of these that I can think of are stat/skill power scrolls, magic armor/weapon modifiers and the addition of certain skills to the game which in turn has caused massive imbalances between PvP character classes.

The fact that these did not exist pre-AoS made the field equal on all fronts, meaning that the only method to gain an advantage over your opponent was through player skill or many vs one situations. More specifically, chaining multiple spells and other attacks together in a timed manner to deal enough damage to your opponent before they could heal or escape.

These days, there is a huge variance in character armor, weapons, stats and developed skills (+/- 20.0 points I believe?) which ultimately resulted in changing what it meant to PvP before AoS entirely. These changes meant that player skill became much less of a factor simply because a player could deal massive amounts of damage with a single attack. Therefore, winning or losing a battle was affected more so by how much gold a person has to invest in their items over any other factor.

Spot on and well said.

PvP after AoS was "item" PvP. You could compensate your poor playerskill with these overpowered items.

Armor, weapon and jewelry became more important then your own performance on the battlefield.

For me and many other PvP veterans it was the end of skillful PvP.

Add insurance and a new skillsystem to that formula and it's not strange many oldtimers felt they played a totally different game after AoS.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

Spot on and well said.

PvP after AoS was "item" PvP. You could compensate your poor playerskill with these overpowered items.

Armor, weapon and jewelry became more important then playerskill.

It was the end of skillful PvP.

Imbuing?

 

[Zosimus]

Imbuing?

Before imbuing AoS changed the game into an item based game. Arties and resists and such. Not the original armor and weps with limits. Before AOS that was true skill pvp. It was so cool to have a silver vanq wep when you could pvm against liches. It was cool to have poison katanas which now dont exist. It was cool to wear regular GM armor and fight against skill not items.

Imbuing is cool but its just a way to get players on an even field in an item based era.

 

[Picus at the office]

The game has changed.

 

[copycon]

The game has changed.

Thanks for that insight. I wish I could say it was for the better.

 

[Mervyn]

Mervyn is a fan of consumables,

if you make the game playable without consumables, then non factioners can perma get ressed and come back with annoyance.

On that note, why the hell doesn't spellweaving require reagents?

 

[Smoot]

Mervyn is a fan of consumables,

if you make the game playable without consumables, then non factioners can perma get ressed and come back with annoyance.

On that note, why the hell doesn't spellweaving require reagents?

Non-factioners cant use faction items, which evens out rez time.

Spellweaving doesnt require regs for the same reason that that chivalry doesnt, and the fact that for Spellweaving to be most effective you have to have other spellweavers and do the circle thing.

 

[Sergul'zan_SP]

The real problem with PvP is that it just isn't fun. The consumables argument have nothing to do with it.

Yew gate ganking, Factions, Champs spawn battles just don't do it for me. Ganking and Chest thumping just doesn't interest me. There is just too much imbalance and cheating to make it worth the effort. The old Guild Wars and even the early Chaos-Order Wars were fun. It took cooperative effort, and working with others made it interesting. It's going to take a whole new re-think to make it work for more than just a small portion of the UO population.

This is the most accurate depiction of PvP in the modern day. The other issue being that (because of the above) there is nobody in Fel anymore. You've got a few gank squads that hang out around gates, a few immense guilds that grief champion spawns, and the occasional guilds who go into factions, win the sigils for a few weeks straight, and then drop out because they realize the system has no point (Sorry guys, artifacts are more damaging to PvP than rewarding).

In addition, the item system is just too complicated and boring. UO was at its best Pre-2003...it has never been the same sense. I doubt it ever will be.

 

[Annonymous User]

Healing potions should work the same way as they do in WoW.

1 potion per battle
1m cool down outside of battle.

Healing and Mana potions function the same way.

This means you have to pick and chose when to use em. Not spam them away with macros.

uo != world of wartards sorry. Not every game has to be a cookie cutter remake of wow /rant

 

[Picus at the office]

Thanks for that insight. I wish I could say it was for the better.

Just making sure everyone is aware.

PvP in UO has just got dull. I've made random chars across many shards and rarely see people doing anything in Fel.

Some aspects of UO have got better such as the expansions/land mass yet others have only added to the issues like speeding.

I'd love to see a classic shard if only to see if players would actually come back to it. I'm sure I'd make a char but truelly to get back to 99-00 would be hard. Who would make the crafters to keep us in archer suits?

 

[Viper09]

Honestly, the real problem with PvP is that not enough people are doing it.

Pretty much covers it.

That is the real thing that made late Pre-Aos pvp seem more fun, we had a lot more people who actually engaged in PvP.

 

[Vaelix]

Pretty much covers it.

That is the real thing that made late Pre-Aos pvp seem more fun, we had a lot more people who actually engaged in PvP.

This is because Pre-Aos was Slower, Simpler, and Didnt require an Actually Skilled PvPer to partitipate.

Any newb could be "Good" Aos Days.. Today its more apparent if you suck.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

PvP in UO has just got dull. I've made random chars across many shards and rarely see people doing anything in Fel.

Anyone who thinks PvP is "dull" either doesn't put forth any effort, or isn't good enough to understand why it is not dull.

 

[Pink Floyd]

Please, for the love of god, put the same timer restriction on cure pots as heals have.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

Please, for the love of god, put the same timer restriction on cure pots as heals have.

It's about time someone who actually understands PvP responded to this thread.

 

[puni666]

Please, for the love of god, put the same timer restriction on cure pots as heals have.

So you think it's fair that you could be DP'd every 1.25 seconds+a Fire ball hit and you can only freely cure it every 10 seconds? I think not. But if you could heal through poison so that it didn't act like a curable mortal strike and only as a DoT then I could see adding a greater timer for cures. It would pretty much become the mages version of the bleed special move.

 

[puni666]

This is because Pre-Aos was Slower, Simpler, and Didnt require an Actually Skilled PvPer to partitipate.

Any newb could be "Good" Aos Days.. Today its more apparent if you suck.

I like the way this guy thinks.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

So you think it's fair that you could be DP'd every 1.25 seconds+a Fire ball hit and you can only freely cure it every 10 seconds? I think not. But if you could heal through poison so that it didn't act like a curable mortal strike and only as a DoT then I could see adding a greater timer for cures. It would pretty much become the mages version of the bleed special move.

Make DP chance based on magic resist.

 

[puni666]

Make DP chance based on magic resist.

Ut oh you're going to have the poison skill fans kicking and screaming next!

 

[Zosimus]

The game is working as the devs intended it to be. Doesnt matter what changes accour. They add other things to make up for the so called fixes which causes the same issues. Before its over with pots will have 1 hour timers but you can eat a variety consumables a million times an hour to make up for the loss of pots.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

Ut oh you're going to have the poison skill fans kicking and screaming next!

Nobody uses it anyway...

The game is working as the devs intended it to be. Doesnt matter what changes accour. They add other things to make up for the so called fixes which causes the same issues. Before its over with pots will have 1 hour timers but you can eat a variety consumables a million times an hour to make up for the loss of pots.

Devs have absolutely no clue of what needs to be done in this game. They don't play it, and the only thing they do know is how the code is written. They simply don't care.

 

[Zosimus]

The game need some tweaks here and there but in reality its fine. If you're not happy with UO pvp, you can always go play another game. If that isnt a viable option then do what the rest of UO community does.....deal with it for now.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

If that isnt a viable option then do what the rest of UO community does.....deal with it for now.

Ya I've only been "dealing with it" for a few years now. What's another gonna hurt.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

If you spent half as much as you do talking yourself up on forums PvP'ing you might actually be decent. Keep talking...it's all you're good at.

(I have yet to see you PvP on Atlantic)

Oh no? Well where did those wins come from then? 5 out of 6 wins against you (and you claim to be good). As I mentioned earlier (if you actually payed attention to anything besides yourself) was that I am a trammie...so unless called out I do not spend a whole lot of time PvPing on atlantic.

Why not? Because of attitudes like yours. The holier than thou, my poop don't stink attitudes are not conducive to my game play. However, if you call me out...I will gladly come spank you again...with my terrible blindcasting and terrible spellplay.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Anyone who thinks PvP is "dull" either doesn't put forth any effort, or isn't good enough to understand why it is not dull.

Anyone who relies on ping to pvp is not really good at it. (see, I can flip meaningless stuff around too...just like you!) Again, 100 ping vs. 100 ping...who do you think will win without pots? Oh...thats right...you refuse to fight in places your ping sucks.

What is my point? Potions don't make people impossible to kill...they allow more people to compete when they do not have a perfect ping to this game. Some people actually have to rely on intuitive casting and target query to be able to *keep up* with the pinglets of this game...and even that isn't enough sometimes.

Again, do you recall calling me a cheater for being quick with potions? I do. /thread

 

[Pink Floyd]

So you think it's fair that you could be DP'd every 1.25 seconds+a Fire ball hit and you can only freely cure it every 10 seconds? I think not. But if you could heal through poison so that it didn't act like a curable mortal strike and only as a DoT then I could see adding a greater timer for cures. It would pretty much become the mages version of the bleed special move.

Wait you mean my poisoning skill would be useful for other than sitting on a soulstone? I'd gladly hit that arch cure more often if poison was actually worthwhile offensively to me.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Ya I've only been "dealing with it" for a few years now. What's another gonna hurt.

If the game doesn't work for you, feel free to quit at any time.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

Anyone who relies on ping to pvp is not really good at it.

Ya I hate people who use an internet connection to PvP. How dare they.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Ya I hate people who use an internet connection to PvP. How dare they.

Dude, do you have anything to say with regards to any of my comments or would you just prefer to troll everything and pretend that you are right for once?

Try living in a small town of 2000 people in the middle of nowhere USA...not everyone has a good connection, yet they still play and compete. Well done on attempting to strike them from the list of people who kick your butt.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

Try living in a small town of 2000 people in the middle of nowhere USA...not everyone has a good connection, yet they still play and compete.

No thanks I enjoy civilization too much.

 

[Zosimus]

Actually high stamina and enhanced bandages saved me more then pots. Guess I didnt need medical potions as an excuse to pvp. Big deal on timers. I think the gameis fine and long fights are fun instead of one or two hit kills. Its how you build your char, how you use them, be fast on macros, use your skills, and go in god mode when your on a pvp high. Pots was just a plus to it all.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

No thanks I enjoy civilization too much.

Thats fine, but don't take pots away just because you get your behind kicked by someone in the boonies!

(I see you make no mention of the healing stone in your pack either...well done hypocrite!)

 

[A Bad Player]

So you think it's fair that you could be DP'd every 1.25 seconds+a Fire ball hit and you can only freely cure it every 10 seconds? I think not. But if you could heal through poison so that it didn't act like a curable mortal strike and only as a DoT then I could see adding a greater timer for cures. It would pretty much become the mages version of the bleed special move.

To be fair, your sig does say this is a team game so someone should have the cure for you anyway.

I don't know why anyone wouldn't want a change to pots or at least apples. People whine and moan that their mystic won't be effective if its changed, but what happened to necro mages? I see the posts about "oh they finally made a mage template effective blah blah dont take my mystic." Did anyone ever think that the reason those other mage templates aren't viable anymore is because of consumables?

I'm tired of the once a week you find someone flagged in Yew and they can just run nonstop while pot timers wear off. I don't like having to play a Mystic to be effective.

On the other hand, mystic becomes even more lame than it is if you have 6 people spell plauging you nonstop and can't apple. Dexxers will likely stay on screen an even shorter time period. Its big domino effect with a lot of variables.

Who said pots are huge on pvm? What dexxer isn't a sampire or something of that sort anyway? Hell, I'm the only sampire I've ever even seen run EP.