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Why do people hate PVP?

Dapeekas

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I've never posted before, so excuse me if i'm totally out of line. But here's a little about me.
As a young person I picked up UO because my best friends brother played. I started out as a miner, the towns were bustling with people, blacksmiths would sit at the shop and sell their wares. It was crazy, all of these people living all over the world, in one spot, playing one game. It was amazing, my parents had to buy another phone line because I wanted to be on this game constantly! I quit a few years later, coming back around 2008 to realize it was so different that I didn't have time now, with adult responsibilities, to learn all the new nuances. Well i've come back again, since COVID I had some time. I saw that you could play for free now and my old account could even be resurrected. After a month of free-play I wanted a house so I bought in.

I cried the first time I was PVPed. All my things, my packhorse, the time and effort into mining that ore, gone! But I went into town, got rezzed and continued about my business. Did it suck getting killed? Yes! But it brought a thrill to the game that is gone now. (And I swear they are trying to fill it with random meaningless objects). Now, I'm not one to ever become a PK, its just not my thing. But, boy, did it bring some thrill and excitement to a simple miner. Now-a-days, mining is pressing a few buttons over and over again, oh, and having a forge following me. No fear of being killed or stolen from. Just putzing around gathering ore.

I did later become a swordsmaster, and even then, the threat of being killed in a dungeon was always there. Not only were you dealing with monsters trying to rip you apart, there was the lingering possibility that a PK would come along and get you right as you were vulnerable. But again, what a thrill! Battling these beasts, and along comes this scoundrel PK trying to kill me and take my hard earned gold!

Now I get it, it was a little too 'wild wild west' when the game first started, but a bit of tweaking to the PVP/Stealing mechanics could bring an excitement to the game that has been missing. I think that's what the idea is behind the whole 'New Legacy' thing.

ALSO, everyone starting from scratch (mostly) would be super helpful to new comers or returning players that don't have a sh*t ton of equipment (or even understand the equipment) and gold. I've been reading that everyone has been let down by previous enhancement attempts, and i'm sure its hard to try and be hopeful (especially because this announcement seems like ALL concept and no real 'doing') but I don't think this is a terrible direction to go in.

I mean, this is all from some dunce that has been out of the game for years, so what the heck does it matter what I think? Just my two cents.
 

Dapeekas

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Ah, see and that info i'm missing. Why would anyone even want to script PVP? How could that even be fun? But, I can totally see how that would make PVP unenjoyable for all.
 

Stussywear

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Siege is just as unfriendly to players who wont mold into the 'clique' . If you decide to go against the grain, you get blacklisted from everyone. Its a bigger joke then the production servers. Not what it used to be.
 

Dot_Warner

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PvP is fine, but UO's overwhelming issues with the fundamental corruption vis a vis the programs-which-shall-not-be-named has pretty much soured the majority of the playerbase. If the problem is not actually addressed at the source, a new PvP shard will have the exact same failings on a larger scale.

Also, while people are fine with consensual PvP, non-consensual PvP leaves a really bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, hence why most online games steer away from it (with a few notable exceptions).
 

Stussywear

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The illegal programs were never as much of an issue until the state of the game became so overwhelmingly item based. Curb the field of play, and the unmentionable programs will not be as much of a factor, just as they were not for years.
 

Stussywear

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Funny, most games I've played with non-consensual pvp dont have near the whining about it as these forums tend to grab. I wonder if thats a coincidence, or just a certain audience who feels that way.
 

Sweetpeez

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Ummm, neber once did meez tinkz da chance ob being pk'ed wuz thrillin. Meez rather beez uh uglie flappie den mezz uhround wif all da pk'in stufz.
 

Stussywear

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Ummm, neber once did meez tinkz da chance ob being pk'ed wuz thrillin. Meez rather beez uh uglie flappie den mezz uhround wif all da pk'in stufz.
Then you've never much attempted RP pvp either, if you think theres no thrill for it. I played with the Shadowclan Orcs for years on Siege, and it was some of the most fun I've ever had in my life.
 

Stinky Pete

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I've been considering going to Siege but still feel really behind the curve on all the new 'stuff'. So, I probably will once I pick up some more know-how.
Yeah, there is a guild on Siege called NEW. All they do is help new players. I can give you contact info for them if you want, just DM me here.

Siege is just as unfriendly to players who wont mold into the 'clique' . If you decide to go against the grain, you get blacklisted from everyone. Its a bigger joke then the production servers. Not what it used to be.
Yeah, everyone loves me soooo much.
 

Dapeekas

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PvP is fine, but UO's overwhelming issues with the fundamental corruption vis a vis the programs-which-shall-not-be-named has pretty much soured the majority of the playerbase. If the problem is not actually addressed at the source, a new PvP shard will have the exact same failings on a larger scale.

Also, while people are fine with consensual PvP, non-consensual PvP leaves a really bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, hence why most online games steer away from it (with a few notable exceptions).
Well non-consensual meaning you're not a PK yourself? They've attempted to assist PK's by giving bonuses to Fel so that regular people go there but I feel like if I go there for the double ore, I am consenting to PK in exchange for the "bonus". Are you saying that is still and undesirable way to have PVP?
 

Sweetpeez

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Then you've never much attempted RP pvp either, if you think theres no thrill for it. I played with the Shadowclan Orcs for years on Siege, and it was some of the most fun I've ever had in my life.
Umm- it'z eben lezz den 'never much' - it'z absolulutely NEBER. Meez neber pvp'ed und neber will - kant stand itz.
 

Kylie Kinslayer

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I have no idea what this means but thanks for your input, I guess?
Ummm, neber once did meez tinkz da chance ob being pk'ed wuz thrillin. Meez rather beez uh uglie flappie den mezz uhround wif all da pk'in stufz.

Orc to English translation

Ummm, never once did I think the chance of being pk'd was thrilling. I (would) rather be a ugly flappie (a gargoyle) than mess around with all the pk'n stuff.
 

Lord Nabin

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It's just not part of my value set. That being said, I am fine with it being a play style and adventure for others. Many seem to have fun with it. Plenty of other things have interested me over the years and plenty still to learn.
 

John Knighthawke

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I don't play these games to compete against other people. I don't think most players do. And the competitive mentality holds no interest for me.

The way the game was set up before Trammel forced you to participate in such things That's why so many people left for EQ when they had the chance, and why most games since have not followed UO's example. I used to PvP avidly for a long time, primarily in Fel and a tad bit of RPed PvP when it came up. This was across 3 different shards over many years. After many unacknowledged victories and dealing with countless examples hurtful behavior that had nothing to do with in-game combat, I just decided I wasn't having fun with it anymore.
 

Sweetpeez

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Ummm, neber once did meez tinkz da chance ob being pk'ed wuz thrillin. Meez rather beez uh uglie flappie den mezz uhround wif all da pk'in stufz.

Orc to English translation

Ummm, never once did I think the chance of being pk'd was thrilling. I (would) rather be a ugly flappie (a gargoyle) than mess around with all the pk'n stuff.
Furst - Girkle fur translatin wut meez said to dat speschul hummie.

Sekund - Meez nerg uh smellie ork! Meez un bootiful Goblin! Luuk at dat purdy pikturd ob meez on da side. Kouldn't yooz jus kiss dat!
 

Kylie Kinslayer

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Furst - Girkle fur translatin wut meez said to dat speschul hummie.

Sekund - Meez nerg uh smellie ork! Meez un bootiful Goblin! Luuk at dat purdy pikturd ob meez on da side. Kouldn't yooz jus kiss dat!
You are welcome.

No, meez neber kiss dat. Meez friez itz erp an eatz it on da sammich.
 

Dot_Warner

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Well non-consensual meaning you're not a PK yourself? They've attempted to assist PK's by giving bonuses to Fel so that regular people go there but I feel like if I go there for the double ore, I am consenting to PK in exchange for the "bonus". Are you saying that is still and undesirable way to have PVP?
I've never been a PK, I don't find killing some random (and likely unprepared) stranger to provide any excitement/enjoyment. I haven't even PvPed in at least three years.

The open world PvP of the original UO was an abject failure, as admitted by Garriott. Players don't like to be victimized. Without victims, the wolves are left to fight each other, which leads to those programs, which has left us where we are.

I don't really see the mere act of stepping foot in Fel as "consent," but then the days of PKs roving the countryside looking for victims are pretty much over on production shards...Atl might be an exception. (I'm ignoring Siege)

The carrots they've offered to the non-Pvpers to get them into Fel have also mostly failed. Not many people want to go do something knowing they could get raided at any moment. Most people I know only do Fel spawns outside of primetime and when they believe certain people aren't online.
 

Dapeekas

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Getting killed by someone and them taking my stuff is somehow not fun for me.

Gee I don't know why.
I mean, as I said, it was really all or nothing in the beginning, which was no fun. But now we have a whole world that we have no fears of PK AND we can insure and bless items to our hearts content. There is literally no fear of losing anything. I just feel like the game has gone in such the opposite direction, like its built for hoarders or something. Its all pixel-trinkets. Maybe if our special goodies got taken away once in a while, we'd have something to strive for aside from demanding new quests and whatnot.

Again, i'm just coming back so, I am probably missing something here.
 

Lord Nabin

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Well, while pvp is not part of my personal value set, Role Play and some situations have necessitated the hiring of an assassin or thief to take care of an issue.

It was nice to have the option to get your point across or item recovered. :gee:
 

Sweetpeez

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You are welcome.

No, meez neber kiss dat. Meez friez itz erp an eatz it on da sammich.
Umm .. meeez hopin yooz talkin aboot fryin up all dat lubly poop meez sabed fum dat ebil hummie contrapshun. Iffn yooz meant meez, furst yooz hab to katch meez.

*appliez uh fresh koat ob peez und runz*
 

805connection

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I think people love PvP, however in most games there is a winning side that either gets the players loot, or wins the champion spawn.

Powerscrolls are the only thing that have some what of a victor, so its the only real content to measure and those have been around 20 years. Moving forward, I dont blame people for leaving due to lack of pvp content.
By adding a new start you have just added content. No Duped items, meaning players will now need to venture out and acquire them feeding the server.

But PvP is terrible right now in UO.
 

MalagAste

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Doesn't matter... what will end up happening is the cheaters are going to cheat... use their hacks and beat all the sheep into the ground which is going to cause the sheep to get annoyed and go back to playing on the other regular shard which will ultimately end up having just the wolves as Dot puts it left to battle it out amongst themselves but without sheep to easily crush and take things from it won't be fun for them either and they too will return to farming sheep on the regular shards hoping to come across the easy targets... setting up their ghost cams and everything else so they can "dominate" fel... as per usual...

No PvP isn't fun when it is mostly people using hacks and cheats that allow them to ignore most of the items on the map that would stop up the normal player... using hacks that cause normal players to crash or lag up... so they can sweep in for the easy kill... why anyone finds that fun is beyond me...

I'm sorry but running in with a group of 4 people to jump one solo person for .2 seconds of "kill" hitting a person what 1 time each if even... isn't fun... waiting till the boss is up and nearly dead to jump in killing the people running the spawn with 2x or 3x the people again isn't fun...

Working really hard at the spawn so you can get the boss up only to have some group of pks run in and take all your hard work again isn't fun... finishing to go through the star room where a gang of 5 to 6 people are waiting fields up and all to gank the crap out of you and take your hard-earned stuff... again NOT fun...

Once upon a time, I knew when PvP was "fun" when it was for a cause or a reason... when it was such that each side was mostly evenly matched and the fights lasted more than a mere 30 seconds... and everyone had a good time without trash talk... without temper tantrums and a bunch of useless drama... that was fun... when we did things for RP... and it was all in good fun... no one lost anything but maybe a notch on a belt or some pride... or when you finally killed that one player one on one where you were fairly evenly matched or even sometimes outmatched but you got super lucky that one time and beat them... but as a general rule most of what I see now on posts in screenshots and video's is full of illegal 3rd party apps and hacks... and to me, if you gotta cheat like that to play then you got no business playing... you are nothing but a cheat go play on some free server and exploit the heck out of it so you never lose... if you are going to cheat to win... that ain't winning...

So yeah... don't care at all for PvP anymore... that ship sailed long, long time ago...
 

Lord Nabin

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Wait there's going to be sheep? I love a good leg of lamb....

To your point pvp with a cause is right on target the RP aspect is what made it great. To just secure an item. ..killed it for a ton of my friends.
 

Stinky Pete

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The big issue is that there is no real negative side to killing players. Being red is really no big deal, just munch a pardon or two and it's like it didn't happen. The choice of whether to kill or not kill should need to be weighed against if the reward is worth that murder count or not. Non-consensual PvP could work, but not if there is no real downside to being a murderer. A very popular free shard has figured this out by charging reds for resurrection based off of how many counts they have. Rez killing people, or killing new players doesn't make sense if it is going to cost you.
 

Nexus

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Wait there's going to be sheep? I love a good leg of lamb....

To your point pvp with a cause is right on target the RP aspect is what made it great. To just secure an item. ..killed it for a ton of my friends.
Considering our average age, you’re going to have to settle for a tough joint of mutton.
 

ShriNayne

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I play to kill monsters, I'd like to think most people do not fall into that category....I just don't enjoy fighting other people, it's too confrontational and somehow too much like real life, which most of us are playing to take a break from. Also I think that choosing to be a criminal should have real consequences.
 

Nexus

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Funny, most games I've played with non-consensual pvp dont have near the whining about it as these forums tend to grab. I wonder if thats a coincidence, or just a certain audience who feels that way.
Most games have it more balanced than UO, and never had the issues UO did with PKing in its infancy. The here was a point on many servers where being PKed while working a mule wasn’t something that happened now and then, it was pretty much a given. You couldn’t go to a bank without being robbed, and handing items to a smith to be repaired was risky as it opened them to being stolen as soon as you unequipped them.
It definitely put a sour taste in many mouths.
 

ShriNayne

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@Nexus An evil fake smith stole all my armour once, it was very upsetting! I'd spent so long getting the gold for a valorite set and had to start all over again, that's not a world I'd want to go back to.
 

popps

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Ah, see and that info i'm missing. Why would anyone even want to script PVP? How could that even be fun? But, I can totally see how that would make PVP unenjoyable for all.
Perhaps because some players want to be winners and not losers and those scripts, cheats and hacks get them that edge which make tem winners and not losers ?

Quite a lot of players who would like to PvP (but do NOT want to have to use scripts, cheats and hacks to be competitive) are deterred from PvPing althougether because of that.

The MAIN damage to PvP gameplay, to my opinion, comes from scripting, cheating and hacking still running rampant in Ultima Online.....

And, to my understanding, since the New Legacy Shard will also run with the Classic and Enhanced Clients, it will be no different....

So, why bother with PvP at all if there will be quite good chances that players there might be using cheats, hacks and scripts to have an edge in their PvPing ?

No thanks.
 

Cyrah

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Wait wait, I thought the new shard is either join the pvp guild or do not. Join the guild and do pvp. Don't join , dont fight. Right? As for pvp in general, hate is a strong word. Pvp just annoying to me because I have to pay attention. I play to not pay much attention. That is a bad idea in Fel is all.
 

Kuru

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“I cried the first time I was PVPed.”
This made me laugh.
So being “PVP’d” and being “PK’d” Are 2 very different things, just like “consensual sex” is very different from “non consensual sex”
... make sure you understand the difference.
 

Tjalle

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Siege is just as unfriendly to players who wont mold into the 'clique' . If you decide to go against the grain, you get blacklisted from everyone. Its a bigger joke then the production servers. Not what it used to be.
If you mean "go against the grain" as in cheating then you´re right. Because the only people that´s been blacklisted on Siege have been cheaters.
Ya know, actions and consequences and all that...
 

Norrar

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People hate on PvP because they need something to hate on. Nobody forces PvP on anyone. If you go into Fel you have made your choice in taking the risk.

Don't want to take the risk? Stay out of Fel. Simple.
 

Archangel0

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“I cried the first time I was PVPed.”
This made me laugh.
So being “PVP’d” and being “PK’d” Are 2 very different things, just like “consensual sex” is very different from “non consensual sex”
... make sure you understand the difference.
Your comparison is way off in its parameters! Did you just really equate an act of agression with sex? Do have it analyzed ffs!

I PVP happily with friends and guildies, just for kicks, and that's consensual, and fun (still doesn't conjure sex in my mind, but to each his own)!

If we could compare it to something it would be consensual PVP is like playing poker, you implicitly agree to the possibility of losing, but not if the other is cheating and hiding cards.
, or being in a boxing gym and getting on the ring cuz U want to. There it can also get f.kcd up if the oponent has filled his glove with a horseshoe, or even worse, is wearing no gloves but brass knuckles instead -those would be said shaving programs-.

Non consensual is like being mugged in the middle of the street while you're shopping.
And then there the PKing that has no reciprocal PVP at all, the nija hiding near a moongate to just pioson stab an unsuspecting trader, thats PKing - or 3 or more against 1... disgracefull if they get their kicks just for a gangk .

They're pathetic, and create unpleasantness for everyone else, which in their psychotic state, might be their aim, rejoicing at the thought of having given someone else a hard time (probably as a reaction to the fact their real lifes suck so much, that they want to see others suffer too)
Anyway, I'm happy to deny such lower diaphragms their fun with me, screw em.
 

Nexus

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People hate on PvP because they need something to hate on. Nobody forces PvP on anyone. If you go into Fel you have made your choice in taking the risk.

Don't want to take the risk? Stay out of Fel. Simple.
The he people with the most adamant distaste for PvP are usually those who’s indoctrination came at a time when “Stay out of Fel!” wasn’t an option.
 

Dapeekas

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“I cried the first time I was PVPed.”
This made me laugh.
So being “PVP’d” and being “PK’d” Are 2 very different things, just like “consensual sex” is very different from “non consensual sex”
... make sure you understand the difference.
You’re right. Like it said it’s been a while since I’ve played. The lingo is still coming back. (And apparently even some of the orc gobledigook lol)
 

Dapeekas

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It's not the pvp people hate, it's the culture around it.

Cheating, immaturity, duping, raging in chat for hours every day...it wears you down pretty fast.
This seems to sum up what everyone has been saying. I feel like since I’ve played very thing turned for the worse. That’s sad as I can see PVP as a fun part of gameplay.
 

Kuru

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Your comparison is way off in its parameters! Did you just really equate an act of agression with sex? Do have it analyzed ffs!

I PVP happily with friends and guildies, just for kicks, and that's consensual, and fun (still doesn't conjure sex in my mind, but to each his own)!

If we could compare it to something it would be consensual PVP is like playing poker, you implicitly agree to the possibility of losing, but not if the other is cheating and hiding cards.
, or being in a boxing gym and getting on the ring cuz U want to. There it can also get f.kcd up if the oponent has filled his glove with a horseshoe, or even worse, is wearing no gloves but brass knuckles instead -those would be said shaving programs-.

Non consensual is like being mugged in the middle of the street while you're shopping.
And then there the PKing that has no reciprocal PVP at all, the nija hiding near a moongate to just pioson stab an unsuspecting trader, thats PKing - or 3 or more against 1... disgracefull if they get their kicks just for a gangk .

They're pathetic, and create unpleasantness for everyone else, which in their psychotic state, might be their aim, rejoicing at the thought of having given someone else a hard time (probably as a reaction to the fact their real lifes suck so much, that they want to see others suffer too)
Anyway, I'm happy to deny such lower diaphragms their fun with me, screw em.
Yeah my example was a little more extreme.. but I fail to see the core difference between your example and mine.
Consensual = PVP
Non consensual = PK
 

Acid Rain

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I love PvP. As of yet, no games AI is as challenging as taking on other skilled players. I still dueled friends outside the guild house (when I was actively playing). I viewed it as a glorified game of chess, it can be a lot of fun.

I stopped PvP in UO when most everyone I knew switched to using programs that are technically illegal yet ignored by those in power. Not faulting my friends, if the majority of PvPers use X program then to be competitive you have to also esp when there’s ZERO consequences. When most everything is automated in PvP... there’s no real skill involved, no having to learn timing, no having to learn spells or practice anything. Thats the current state of most UO PvP. Fact.

I hung around a few yrs after mostly quitting PvP but it got old fast. My friends kept me ingame longer then the game. I’ve moved to other games that use anti-cheat software and/or have admins actively removing cheaters. No game is ever entirely cheat free but atleast other games try. UO threw in the towel yrs ago. How many yrs now since they told us ‘a new approved programs list would be out shortly’ ? I haven’t logged in to play in prob close to 2 yrs, only log in now once a week to refresh boats.

I don’t hate PvP, I love it but why sit down for a good game of chess when your opponent gets 3 moves to ur 1 & randomly just moves multiple pieces whenever they want? That’s how I feel abt UO PvP and it’s a game I refuse to take part in. There’s plenty of other games around that on the surface atleast seem fair and balanced.
 

Archangel0

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Yeah my example was a little more extreme.. but I fail to see the core difference between your example and mine.
Consensual = PVP
Non consensual = PK
I guess we can all agree on that.
And non consensual always sucks :arr:
 
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