What about power scrolls? That's an objective. To successfully complete a champ spawn while fending off raiders or vice versa. Of course there are people now who want to take that away as well from Fel, leaving behind no objective based pvp
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What would entice you to pvp in UO?
- Thread starter 805connection
- Start date
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Did spawning for awhile, did factions, all very meh. After 20 years who is going to want to keep going for more power scrolls? Here's what would catch my interest. Suppose you made an account wide choice. You choose Trammel or Felucca. If you choose Trammel, that's where you stay. If you choose Felucca, your account is red and you stay in Felucca and you could besiege and fight over castles, loot, and land and win territory...the more territory you acquire the more clout you get until you could declare yourself King.
At least there would be something to fight over. Murder, rivalry, revenge, hiding your precious items instead of heaping up a secure horde. Rivals could conspire against you, make alliances and fight back...there would be intrigue, interest, something to do, and a real lasting population in Felucca and real rewards. Let's face it though, that would never happen because of all the tears!
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Agreed, players should not be forced to PvP, especially, when it happened at the wrong time and the mood is to play other contents.
Stop using the word "forced". Nothing is forced in UO, you make a decision and live by your decision. If you want to spawn for scrolls you can, if a raider shows up, that's when your decision comes into play, you either defend your spawn or leave and find a different spawn or do something else. You are not forced to fight them. Stop with the nonsense already
It is really nonsense to think about power scroll only. My miner got pked when he is mining around the mountains near Britain city. My fighter also met a thief just outside the city of Papua
Youd don't have to mine in felucca either, and there is places to mine inside guard zones in fel. Again if you decide to go there its a risk you have to accept. Its the same risk for everyone its not bias for weaker players or stronger players.
You're not FORCED to pvp in Fel if you know where to avoid it. Yew Gate? Yeah, you only go there to fight. Spawns? It's 2017 - you can do PLENTY of spawns without ever getting raided, even Harrowers. Back in 2004-ish, not so much; you KNEW you'd get raided, so you were always prepared to fight.
Farming? I've literally gone ALL DAY in Fel Blackthorn on my sampire and don't see anyone, and people know I farm there a lot (when the mood suits me.) You can go to any of the dungeons and the same thing will happen.
Mining? Unless you're in VvV on your crafter (which is just dumb), you can do it in specific guardzones. Players aren't going to risk the guardwhack from the NPCs lying around.
You can use whatever words you like, but to me when an essential component is only available in in Fel, that's forced.
So you manage to farm in Fel and you are not always getting raided. I am sure there are plenty of other times when you are.
There are plenty of players who are working adults and have 1-2 hours to play a night. If they spend this time trying to get scrolls only to be raided at the last minute, it does not provide for playing experience one wants to come back to. But as long as they provided amusement for some random PvPers, it's all good, right? Because they had a choice. They could, buy the power scrolls. Oh wait, since we have a tiny percent of the player population controlling an essential resource, the prices are nuts. But, they have a choice. They don't NEED those power scrolls. They don't need to keep logging in for that matter either.
It is really dumb to limit the mining in guard zones. You can say you have been farming all day long in Siege and haven't met a pk, but, other players are forced to pvp any time and anywhere in Fel, no matter they want or not.
Honestly I don't think there is anything that would entice me to PvP in UO. I have 14 accounts and all but 1 of my houses are in Fel so I spend 95% of my time there doing what I do. Anytime someone tries attacking me it is usually just disrupting me from gathering resources or running around from point A to point B.
One thing that I miss from back in the day is the bounty system. I wouldn't hunt out anyone to PvP but I would at least try to put up a fight if I was ever attacked.
So I know that there are people that enjoy PvP but I am just not interested and can't be enticed to do it.
One thing that I miss from back in the day is the bounty system. I wouldn't hunt out anyone to PvP but I would at least try to put up a fight if I was ever attacked.
So I know that there are people that enjoy PvP but I am just not interested and can't be enticed to do it.
I never said I was at the computer 24/7 when I do Fel Blackthorn farming. Hell, I've had GMs stop by more than once and I didn't notice. Funny how that works, isn't it? You can page and page for a variety of things, but if someone pages for afk farming, a GM shows up within 5 minutes.
Scrolls: In that 1-2 hours, you can, with the right templates and enough people (you really don't need more than 2, fyi), run ALL of the original 6 champ spawns - if you want to know how, I'll be more than happy to tell you. You just have to know where to do them. Do you honestly think the guilds that raid are capable of checking everywhere on all the shards, then getting there fast enough? They aren't. Sure, they have their cameras (I've killed one guy's stealther on multiple occasions in Despise), but a competent group can get the spawn done and the scrolls out before they arrive/ever find out the spawn's being done.
Its apparent to me that the tramites want a menu to pop up when they login and just pick any item in the game for free without any real work involved. Just gimme gimme gimme, I never want to die ever, cause 7k insurance would make me broke and ragelog forever. They arent willing to listen to anything anyone says that's a valid point, its like a really bad reality tv show in text form. 
I am not a pvper but I played UO since 1998. Long ago I was in an anti-PK guild. I learned that most PKs wanted to fight where as I wanted peace. Many players came form Dungeons and dragons games where the bad guy is your friend and the most powerful player. They kept that format in UO with PKs having the basic advantage of picking when and where to fight so you might be in a dungeon fighting some creature that you could barely stay alive fighting and this is when they choose to attack. You might be out trying to accomplish something fun and they may show up and then you are dead and it's not fun anymore. They created Trammel but what I thought they should have done is to make it so the good guys can control the bad guys through the mechanisms of the game so that if they killed a bad guy that guy would be rendered unable to cause harm to other players for a while. I would have been happy to play by those rules but as it is you could throw Fel away and it wouldn't harm my game experience.
Everyone here had some wonderful ideas,
I think from what I read the most that people do not want to use other programs to play the game and know its hard to be competitive. Its like being with someone who cheated on you before you never know if they are truly being honest, so It hinders the relationship.
From a PvPers perspective they love uo the way it is and just want to see things balanced out. But balanced will not bring the larger demographic back to pvp. Personally I feel a battle ground system for EC only to regulate third party programs would give everyone a sign of relief when playing. it would also be a bit more competitive because everyone would be starting on a new platform.
I think from what I read the most that people do not want to use other programs to play the game and know its hard to be competitive. Its like being with someone who cheated on you before you never know if they are truly being honest, so It hinders the relationship.
From a PvPers perspective they love uo the way it is and just want to see things balanced out. But balanced will not bring the larger demographic back to pvp. Personally I feel a battle ground system for EC only to regulate third party programs would give everyone a sign of relief when playing. it would also be a bit more competitive because everyone would be starting on a new platform.
It isn't essential.
A larger player pool would get me back into PVP.
Even after moving to Atlantic, I got tired of the same ~15 guys wherever I went. I don't mind going up against someone who stomps me once in a while, but it seems like the only people left are the ones with totally insane multi-plat suits or the ultra talented mage duelers who I could never beat anyway. Everyone else just got tired of it and went to League of Legends. Those guys who have nothing else in their lives but Ultima are great players, and that's fine. But, I miss having a large player pool which includes lots of people around my skill level to fight with.
Even after moving to Atlantic, I got tired of the same ~15 guys wherever I went. I don't mind going up against someone who stomps me once in a while, but it seems like the only people left are the ones with totally insane multi-plat suits or the ultra talented mage duelers who I could never beat anyway. Everyone else just got tired of it and went to League of Legends. Those guys who have nothing else in their lives but Ultima are great players, and that's fine. But, I miss having a large player pool which includes lots of people around my skill level to fight with.
Except... cheating doesn't actually play a huge role in the outcome of fights.
Most of the "cheats" out there, are used more so for convenience, than to give the player an unfair advantage. Actually, most of the advantages that the so-called "cheats" out there give, are either not as good, or equal to the advantages that playing with the Enhanced Client gives. People who think cheating makes a huge difference are the bad players who have never cheated and don't know the true extent that cheating affects pvp, and who are looking for an excuse for getting dominated. This is not sh-t talking, or attacking character, it is a fact.
Don't believe me? Do you know how many times I have been accused of cheating when I wasn't? In dueling alone for example, I've been accused of cheating more times than I could count if I tried. I've even been accused of using "casting scripts" numerous times, and that's dueling with uoassist, and no other programs.
Is there a large skill gap in pvp? Yes. Is it a problem that we should do something about? Maybe. That might be a good argument to have. But take it from a good player, that "hacks" are not the problem with UO, and it's only bad players that think they are.
No one is forced to do anything in UO, there is no clear direction. Also I would like to see account bound legendaries for people who pvp in fel, the legendaries prices are getting a bit out of hand and
There should be a new system that is a win win for both Fel Player and Trammel Player. A reward battle group is a start with pre made suits. No its not FEL pvp, but its something else that people can do to have fun and test their skills.
Right so lets just remove that frame of mind from every player. The Current UO pvp system is just flat out broke, the 90% of the community if who we are going after. This thread is not for pvpers you guys are happy playing at yew gate or at spawns. but the other 90% that does not want to gate fight. They do nor want to spend 1 plat on a suit, they do not want to run 5 programs in order to compete. they do not want to listen to people talk in gen chat.
There should be a new system that is a win win for both Fel Player and Trammel Player. A reward battle group is a start with pre made suits. No its not FEL pvp, but its something else that people can do to have fun and test their skills.
You pretty much summed it up. The Current PvP System is broken. You are wanting to attract the remaining trammy player base that in 20 Years hasn't really wanted to set foot in fel since tram was introduced and nothing beyond giving them event drops, and rare pixel crack would entice them to come out, but even then they wouldn't try to pvp. Honestly best to forget about them and focus on the endless journey and what we can offer returning/new players to hook them quickly and to promote the out of bank living lifestyle.
This is a rough draft I had from back when they had the private forums for VvV modified slightly for changes since then.
VvV needs it's own map that Only Those in VvV can enter, Time Limit between Entering and Leaving.
1. Guilds Need to be able to ally themselves to Vice or Virtue. Safe Zone on the Map for Each Side, Banker, VvV Silver Traders, Npcs who sell Lesser versions of things. Players can either work out of the supplies in their bank or buy the VvV Versions. Examples Below, (Lots and lots and lots..... of lesser rules to keep things from devolving into trolling and general douchebaggery)
2. There needs to be some sort of Minimum Gear that can be provided while on the map to bring players at least to the level of suit that reforging could do for very little cost. Limited Timer/durability/etc whatever it takes to keep it in the map. Divide it up into Armor Sets and Jewel sets that Provide different functions. Leave clothing slots, and talisman slots open to the players to fill with VvV Arties or in game Items. Example Below
3. No Global Chat Systems while on the Map (Everyone wins, want to chat with other people in your Alliance, Ally their guild), (Remove Chats from Fel while you are at it
)4. Goal Orientated Fights Taken from Current Systems.
- Current town Altar system. (Domination from COD) 3 Separate Areas, One open field, one grinder, one mix, 3 Altars on each, One close to each Base, one in the center. More players on the altar faster it captures.
- Capture the Flag (Sigil Stealing, I would love it if they would take the grinder locations from Factions to set these up, like the chunks of towns in Blackthorn (NOSTALGIA FOR GODS SAKE ITS A 20 YEAR OLD GAME, BRING SOMETHING BACK)
+ Owning Sigils Opens up New Teleport Locations To give an edge in other parts.
- 4 Spawns: All start at the same time (Random spawns). Points are earned for each side by killing monsters, and by killing the champs. 2 spawns close to each base, Once all the spawns are down, Lord Oaks spawn in the center of the map. After that Harrower in a grinder location of course. Reward Scrolls based on points earned so other factions can't just show up and kill the boss to get all the scrolls.
- Free For all: Every Player starts with 1 point, Killing a player steals their points. Can't return to base unless dead. Award VvV Points based on top Point Holders
- Make all of those things rotate like Clockwork.
- Make the VvV Reward List Bigger than the cleanup reward list, House Deco, Titles, dyes, Pixel crack Mounts, rotate out items like the event sets to where players only have a limited time to get them(This is what drives UO's Economy Leurocian's mempos, ranger's cloaks, etc etc etc... things that were only available for a short time and makes people want to play), Make The VvV Reward's Shard Bound. SHARD BASED EVENTS ARE NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR GLOBAL ONES
- Hire Gm's To Police Or Create a new class of GM's that doesn't have the power to create things. Just a glorified Bouncer(Maybe do away with current advisors and implement this but with paid Interns
). Check for Duplicates of IP's (Freeshards can do it, so can you), it's not perfect, but it's a start. Build in a Jail down there like Bucs, Incorporate Anti AFK Scripting Measures such as puzzle menus with a short timer to solve them. Suspect a multiboxer, hit all characters with the puzzle menu, they don't solve it in time (5s), instantly into the jail for X amount of time. Dedicate time and effort to changing the puzzles. Jail for Overclocking Software if nothing else, it should be abhorrently apparent to the server when players are using them. No, it doesn't actually make the players move/cast faster, but it does distort their location in game (Skipping) and reaction times. Not to mention probably isn't good for the load on the server. ;=====================================
Lesser Versions of Items
Enchanted Rotten Apple
- Removes Debuffs, 20% Higher chance to fail/remove less/increased timer, take your pick
Precariously Trapped Box
- Deals 20% More damage than minimum player trapped boxes
All Greater potions but 10% less Effective.
Normal Bandis
Reg Npc's
Arrows/Bolts
Etc Etc (Gold sinks while still keeping player crafted Viable)
======================================
Example Armor - Mage Armor Set: 20 Mana Regen, 15 Hit Point Regen, 10 Defense Chance Increase, 20 HP Increase, 30 Mana Increase, 100% Lower Reagant Cost, 15 Damage Eater,
- Mage Weapon -20 Skill (15 Dci), Spell Channel no -1
- Shield Option (sc no -1 15 Dci, RP, Soul Charge)
- Hybrid Options ( Assortment of weapon options, Spell Channeling no -1, Hit Spell, Hit chance Increase, Swing Speed Increase)
Example - Jewel Set
Mage Set - 50% Ep, 2/6 Casting, 20% Spell Damage Increase, 20% Defense Chance Increase, +20 Magery
Continue for Archer, Dexxer, Stealther, etc etc.
=====================================
UO PvP is IMO just too tedious. I enjoy PvP in a lot of games where it is just more fun and less pain.
Like when you die in UO, you got to go to a healer, all the way out of a dungeon and a couple of screens in the woods. Then you get rezzed and have to heal up, buff yourself and try to get back to your body. Likely it was looted anyway and you have to go back to your house to pick up like half a dozens items that will get looted next time you die again.
Whats the roundtrip time of being back in the fight? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? BOOOOOOOORING........
Spawn me 4 screens away with all my stuff still with me and UO PvP might have a chance in 2017. Otherwise it will stay that pool of low-life genchat warriors. It's not even about rewards not worth it but the system in general being a maxxed out PITA.
Like when you die in UO, you got to go to a healer, all the way out of a dungeon and a couple of screens in the woods. Then you get rezzed and have to heal up, buff yourself and try to get back to your body. Likely it was looted anyway and you have to go back to your house to pick up like half a dozens items that will get looted next time you die again.
Whats the roundtrip time of being back in the fight? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? BOOOOOOOORING........
Spawn me 4 screens away with all my stuff still with me and UO PvP might have a chance in 2017. Otherwise it will stay that pool of low-life genchat warriors. It's not even about rewards not worth it but the system in general being a maxxed out PITA.
What people I hang out with want most is simply mature people around them acting like adults. Nothing worse than those 30+ yo UO players acting like 12 yo kids as soon as they get to kill someone.
In the end I don't think UO will ever be the game for it again. There are just too many games out there that learned from the past 20 years and offer a way better experience. While UO is basically stuck in it's 20 year old broken PvP ideals.
What would entice me to PvP voluntarily?
An ex-wife in the opposing faction
An ex-wife in the opposing faction
Nothing. Left PVP because of the anti social people it attracts and the increased use of blatant hacking.
Bane, if these cheat programs didn't make a difference, PEOPLE WOULDN'T USE THEM. By your logic, aim bots in Overwatch/other FPS's, the scripters in League who can perfectly dodge attacks, and whatever else people use don't make a difference in those games...but they very clearly do (and it's not always just for convenience), which is WHY they're used. However, there's one major difference between those games and current UO: using them is very likely to get you banned.
They have never been able to regulate CC since I have played, I know they can regulate EC. The fix is enhance the EC version to be more pvp friendly.
This wins the thread surely? A mechanic by which ACTUAL meaningful contact between players makes a difference to the game play experience. Love this idea
Fire Warrior
Adventurer
One of the problems with PVP is that UO did not make it easy to practice. Nor did they make it easy to have friendly duels etc. Yes there have been an improvement here and there and dedicated players could always 'make it work'. That isn't the point. The point is that EA/Uo devs (not necessarily Broadsword) did everything they could after AOS to completely ruin it instead of support it and actually deal with problems. They 'gave up'. The concluded they could not fix the cheating without 'alot of work' and they did not see the incentive to do it - but mostly they WERE NOT PVPERS and didn't like it - much less understand it.
Also even when PVP affiliated devs were hired they were always shuttered 'into the corner' of some 'closet' with limited resources, consideration etc. This was incredibally stupid, but it happened.
Yes there were/are cheaters. Yes, there were/are griefers. I still remember running around with a crazy guy who stole some woman's house back when you could steal houses and made fun of her as she cried (horrible I know and funny in a sick way, after all it was just a game). So yes there were problems. However, what I saw was a 'we want to get back at pvpers for the suffering' instead of 'lets fix the problem' attitude. I saw this going back more than 10 years. It was ironic that the same immaturity shown by pkers who would make fun of dead ghosts and swear up and down and grief people for no reason other than the need to see others suffer - was then returned by the 'Trammy crowd' who wanted to ITEM SPAM the game to death and add 'I WIN' buttons for every player. What should have happened is there should have been a good compromise - instead we got an uneasy - ugly 'peace' which IGNORED the problems instead of trying to fix them. Lazyness and greed won - and the quality of UO and its popularity at least partially suffered as a result - depending on your point of view. This is why some people made free shards - so they could experience the old days - even with the problems of coding/ limitations etc.
As far as fixing the problems with cheating or 3rd party programs - its simple. Unify into one client. Until they do this we shouldn't even try to have a discussion about fixing cheating - we are just fooling ourselves bigtime. I actually like CC a little better than EC but that isn't really the point. Two clients is just asking for it when it comes to 'cheats', period.
The only thing they need to fix is speedhack, everything else can be fixed through design changes that are subtle, simple and easy to do - if there is a will to do it. And no it will not 'ruin most templates'. All it takes is a pro pvp dev group with the proper resources to back it. Broadsword I actually like their people overall so far. I do not think they have been given the proper resources to do what is needed for those of us who like pvp much less those who don't understand or didn't like it to want to participate all of a sudden.
So therefore it IS doable - but so far there is not the will, resources or support to do it right - and it is NOT the dev team's fault - period. In the old days people would always blame them and I told them then and now that they WERE NOT THE ISSUE and whining at them would not fix things and that the problem was much more basic than that. This goes back to EA wanting the game to be a MINIMUM RESOURCE ALLOCATION situation. The game was old (to them) and they did not understand or want to invest any more resources into an old game. Improving an old game goes against (or used to ) alot of so called 'truths' accepted by the 'game' industry. So there were / have been alot of forces , both obvious and subtle at work against letting UO be at its best in PVP. Some of it is just a lack of time for many people. The rest of it is poor interface adjustments to make it easier for people to properly pvp - along with incorrect game design to help pvp happen more smoothly and fairly for the great mass of people. Too often they tried to design a 'system' of pvp. This was a mistake. PVP did not need a 'system', PVP needed to be understood at the design level - and it was not and IMO still isn't by the majority - thus the poor results.
Are there spoiled players who will never be good at pvp in uo much less other games beacuse they like to complain? Yes. Always. They are the same people who think the dev team is 'God' and if only 'God' would see things their way then magically any desire these people have would be fulfilled (this actually happens sometimes, and its not all bad but my point stands). The word idiot does not do them justice at times, and I rest my case on that one - they prove it all the time - and no I do not hate trammies or single player experience or non pvp people. The whiners on the other hand also like to make fun of others who have a different view than them - yet they rarely have a view of their own - their losers or board warriors - but they sure like ruining someone elses ideas - almost as if they are afraid an idea contrary to their own might become popular or interesting. Weird people. They do not see win/win, only them and you. They waste everyone's time and cannot take criticism or engage in a discussion where they will not always be perfectly right. Ok enough of that part, that was a mini rant.
In conclusion, if we want a different result for PVP - we must start by understanding the problem comprehensively and not act or believe as though this little change or that will really improve the situation. My view suggests that the main reason PVP died is because AOS made pvp item based instead of skill/ability/time/team based and this slowly but surely strangled UO. This is ironic because when AOS came in being RED again (after quite a hiatus after 2000) actually was doable - yet the new resistance/equipment system ruined the 'experience' based UO system of previous years. The game has never fully recovered from this change. So you see its FUNDAMENTAL things that affected pvp, not just a minor problem or two - or cheaters, or even popularity alone - but a serious lack of attention to game design at a basic (EA) level. Shortly after UO was released. EA decided they wanted to copy Everquest and make the game item based single player experience because it was 'easier' to keep up with. Pkers and Pvpers were an undesirable element in the way of their profits or so they thought (Short sightedly at best). Garriot left, EA took over and then they hurried to bring in TRAMMEL. But that was not all, they nerfed several popular pvp templates and lost MANY players in 2000 alone for that one. This was foolish because many players played both Pker and Blue players - so it was silly. TRAMMEL was one thing, but hurting the Veterans was something else. This 'jackarse' attitude by EA going way back is the fundamental reason PVP has had a herky jerky death or decline (you choose). It was there to be done right but they decided they knew best for 'all of us'.
We need more resources to be able to do it right or else only committed groups of people can make it prosper in a limited fashion but thats it! As far as Felucca and power scrolls etc, if they would unify the clients and commit to helping the average player pvp or at least be able to defend themselves without having spend huge amounts of time to learn it - then it could be still viable at a larger level. Until then it will probably not change much - just an opinion, and hardly am I alone on this, nor am I exclusive or perfectly correct. I know this was a long article. If you read it all, congrats.
Also even when PVP affiliated devs were hired they were always shuttered 'into the corner' of some 'closet' with limited resources, consideration etc. This was incredibally stupid, but it happened.
Yes there were/are cheaters. Yes, there were/are griefers. I still remember running around with a crazy guy who stole some woman's house back when you could steal houses and made fun of her as she cried (horrible I know and funny in a sick way, after all it was just a game). So yes there were problems. However, what I saw was a 'we want to get back at pvpers for the suffering' instead of 'lets fix the problem' attitude. I saw this going back more than 10 years. It was ironic that the same immaturity shown by pkers who would make fun of dead ghosts and swear up and down and grief people for no reason other than the need to see others suffer - was then returned by the 'Trammy crowd' who wanted to ITEM SPAM the game to death and add 'I WIN' buttons for every player. What should have happened is there should have been a good compromise - instead we got an uneasy - ugly 'peace' which IGNORED the problems instead of trying to fix them. Lazyness and greed won - and the quality of UO and its popularity at least partially suffered as a result - depending on your point of view. This is why some people made free shards - so they could experience the old days - even with the problems of coding/ limitations etc.
As far as fixing the problems with cheating or 3rd party programs - its simple. Unify into one client. Until they do this we shouldn't even try to have a discussion about fixing cheating - we are just fooling ourselves bigtime. I actually like CC a little better than EC but that isn't really the point. Two clients is just asking for it when it comes to 'cheats', period.
The only thing they need to fix is speedhack, everything else can be fixed through design changes that are subtle, simple and easy to do - if there is a will to do it. And no it will not 'ruin most templates'. All it takes is a pro pvp dev group with the proper resources to back it. Broadsword I actually like their people overall so far. I do not think they have been given the proper resources to do what is needed for those of us who like pvp much less those who don't understand or didn't like it to want to participate all of a sudden.
So therefore it IS doable - but so far there is not the will, resources or support to do it right - and it is NOT the dev team's fault - period. In the old days people would always blame them and I told them then and now that they WERE NOT THE ISSUE and whining at them would not fix things and that the problem was much more basic than that. This goes back to EA wanting the game to be a MINIMUM RESOURCE ALLOCATION situation. The game was old (to them) and they did not understand or want to invest any more resources into an old game. Improving an old game goes against (or used to ) alot of so called 'truths' accepted by the 'game' industry. So there were / have been alot of forces , both obvious and subtle at work against letting UO be at its best in PVP. Some of it is just a lack of time for many people. The rest of it is poor interface adjustments to make it easier for people to properly pvp - along with incorrect game design to help pvp happen more smoothly and fairly for the great mass of people. Too often they tried to design a 'system' of pvp. This was a mistake. PVP did not need a 'system', PVP needed to be understood at the design level - and it was not and IMO still isn't by the majority - thus the poor results.
Are there spoiled players who will never be good at pvp in uo much less other games beacuse they like to complain? Yes. Always. They are the same people who think the dev team is 'God' and if only 'God' would see things their way then magically any desire these people have would be fulfilled (this actually happens sometimes, and its not all bad but my point stands). The word idiot does not do them justice at times, and I rest my case on that one - they prove it all the time - and no I do not hate trammies or single player experience or non pvp people. The whiners on the other hand also like to make fun of others who have a different view than them - yet they rarely have a view of their own - their losers or board warriors - but they sure like ruining someone elses ideas - almost as if they are afraid an idea contrary to their own might become popular or interesting. Weird people. They do not see win/win, only them and you. They waste everyone's time and cannot take criticism or engage in a discussion where they will not always be perfectly right. Ok enough of that part, that was a mini rant.
In conclusion, if we want a different result for PVP - we must start by understanding the problem comprehensively and not act or believe as though this little change or that will really improve the situation. My view suggests that the main reason PVP died is because AOS made pvp item based instead of skill/ability/time/team based and this slowly but surely strangled UO. This is ironic because when AOS came in being RED again (after quite a hiatus after 2000) actually was doable - yet the new resistance/equipment system ruined the 'experience' based UO system of previous years. The game has never fully recovered from this change. So you see its FUNDAMENTAL things that affected pvp, not just a minor problem or two - or cheaters, or even popularity alone - but a serious lack of attention to game design at a basic (EA) level. Shortly after UO was released. EA decided they wanted to copy Everquest and make the game item based single player experience because it was 'easier' to keep up with. Pkers and Pvpers were an undesirable element in the way of their profits or so they thought (Short sightedly at best). Garriot left, EA took over and then they hurried to bring in TRAMMEL. But that was not all, they nerfed several popular pvp templates and lost MANY players in 2000 alone for that one. This was foolish because many players played both Pker and Blue players - so it was silly. TRAMMEL was one thing, but hurting the Veterans was something else. This 'jackarse' attitude by EA going way back is the fundamental reason PVP has had a herky jerky death or decline (you choose). It was there to be done right but they decided they knew best for 'all of us'.
We need more resources to be able to do it right or else only committed groups of people can make it prosper in a limited fashion but thats it! As far as Felucca and power scrolls etc, if they would unify the clients and commit to helping the average player pvp or at least be able to defend themselves without having spend huge amounts of time to learn it - then it could be still viable at a larger level. Until then it will probably not change much - just an opinion, and hardly am I alone on this, nor am I exclusive or perfectly correct. I know this was a long article. If you read it all, congrats.
Its odd that a debate on encouraging PvP has made few references to Siege Perilous, people have talked about how great a pure Fel shard would be, but when its pointed out that Siege is this, out come a ton of excuses as to why Siege isnt "right", be it the one char thing, RoT, no insurance etc, I dont buy it, even with these things its still closer to what "PvPers" claim to want than a Tram shard is.
I think the truth is veteran players on prodo shards(even the PvPers) are very comfotable with the current setup and their easy Tram gear uber suits, and their millions of gold, they are not about to start again on a Fel only shard.
"Oh but look at how popular the Fel free shards are"
Ya, they are free, thats why.
Siege is the test case and the only model of integrating both playstyles(yes I know Mugen is similar), and for the most part it works reasonably well, I would personally prefer more chars there, and maybe better standard loot to offset the lack of insurance and the frequent loss of gear, making it easier to replace suits, RoT really isnt the issue people claim it is, infact for some skills like taming or craft ones, it makes them cheaper and easier to train.
Im not one of these people coming here to try to get players onto Siege, I actually like it with the player numbers it has, its cosy and everyone knows each other, the community is nice there as it is, Im just saying that a Fel only Shard is not the answer to promoting PvP, it might have been several years ago if they had simply made PvP and PvM shards like other games now do, instead of making Trammel, but whats done is done and fracturing the already small player base with more shards would be counter productive.
I think the truth is veteran players on prodo shards(even the PvPers) are very comfotable with the current setup and their easy Tram gear uber suits, and their millions of gold, they are not about to start again on a Fel only shard.
"Oh but look at how popular the Fel free shards are"
Ya, they are free, thats why.
Siege is the test case and the only model of integrating both playstyles(yes I know Mugen is similar), and for the most part it works reasonably well, I would personally prefer more chars there, and maybe better standard loot to offset the lack of insurance and the frequent loss of gear, making it easier to replace suits, RoT really isnt the issue people claim it is, infact for some skills like taming or craft ones, it makes them cheaper and easier to train.
Im not one of these people coming here to try to get players onto Siege, I actually like it with the player numbers it has, its cosy and everyone knows each other, the community is nice there as it is, Im just saying that a Fel only Shard is not the answer to promoting PvP, it might have been several years ago if they had simply made PvP and PvM shards like other games now do, instead of making Trammel, but whats done is done and fracturing the already small player base with more shards would be counter productive.
DreadLord Lestat
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I use to live in Fel exclusively and enjoyed the danger of being attacked. I was never very good and lost more often then I won, but it was fun. Dungeons in Tram were overcrowded (this was back in the prime days when even Catskills was full on housing before AOS) so I started playing exclusively in Fel.
I get nostalgic about those times and have tried to get into PvP a few times.
2009, I joined a PvP group that said they would help teach me to PvP. Basically I was thrown in on champ spawns and what not and died fairly quick. There was no communication though Vent was popular and I had no idea what I was doing and gave up.
2013, I tried again. This time, someone helped me out with skills for a mage and getting power scrolls. However, no one wanted to work with me and help me learn how to PvP as mage which was obviously different than PvM as I died so quick.
PvPers are so quick to complain about no one to fight but I spent 2 months talking to different people and making posts to get help so I could join in and nothing, crickets, not a single reply. It was almost as if no one wanted new blood. I gave up and did other things. I PvP a lot in Eve Online. It is very interesting to see the differences. Most times, the sides are not even unless it is large fleet PvP. Small groups roam and kill smaller groups or individuals and then run into larger groups or home defense groups and die to them. There are a lot of GF (good fight) in local and while there is some trash talk in local, it is not usually whining about the outcome. It is more trying to encourage others to come and fight. There is no insurance in Eve. When you die, something things are lost immediately and are lootable in your wreck. However, if you are PvPing, you almost never get to loot your wreck unless your side won. More times than not, when you die, it is a total loss. There is a huge difference in attitude and conversation regarding PvP in Eve compared to UO.
So, to answer your question, I am not sure there is anything that can be done now to get me to PvP. I guess it would help if the majority of PvPers would pick a shard and stay instead of shard hopping. It seems like everyone is so spread out. Everyone wants a PvP only shard but if people can't stay on one shard now to PvP, why would they want to dedicate a shard to it? It would help if some of them would grow up and stop whining in gen chat when you lose, man up. You are going to win some and lose some, it is part of the game. Some type of help to learn the nuances of PvP, Eve is full of PvP tutorials and corporations (guilds) that take in newbs and help them learn the ropes and get started. They understand that without new blood, there is no content. Yes, PvP in Eve is called content and that is the end game for Eve. Lastly, PvPers seem to act worse to other PvPers which drives some people away. Before anyone says, if you can't handle it, don't PvP, think about this. PvP numbers are dropping, do you want more PvP or less? Help people learn to PvP, help make it desirable and fun for others. I am not putting anyone or group down, just my 2 cents....
Fire Warrior
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Definitely wanted to comment on this insightful post. Part of the problem is that the majority of pvp guilds left UO a long time ago for many reasons. Back in the day you could join a guild and learn the ropes at least enough to survive. Also - before AOS, equipment and tons of items was not a huge requirement to pvp other than spell regs. I cannot overstate how crucial that change was. In those days you could die and get ressed and a guildmate would hand you a bag of 30 of each reg or some bandaids and you were back in the fight within minutes - especially if you were not in factions. That didn't mean there were not 'complete wipe out' situations. There were but they had to be earned if you were up against competant guilds or heck even any decent guild at all. Now there are few if any guilds of pvpers. The better question at this point is how to recover now that AOS and beyond has 'taken hold'. You'd need a new beginning.
Personally I believe that the best chance will come if they unify the clients and address key pvp issues. For example, why should people pvp when there is little opportunity to learn or it takes alot of special equipment just to do it? (Didn't use to be necessary). Thats alot of work for questionable rewards unless you like champ spawns (I do but again if you don't know how would you learn).
There is not a good introduction to 'endgame' pvp for newer players or inexperienced (pvp) players.
Another factor are 'game changes'. This goes way back and again I do not blame broadsword - they are trying hard to balance things step by step and keep it reasonable and it isn't easy - I can tell they are trying - but they have limited resources/budget etc....
This tends to confuse the pvp issue, because the questions you might have had 6 months ago might be meaningless or have changed with the next publish. So as anyone can see its a variety of factors that have hurt pvp and continue to do so. IMO what is needed are client changes that are PVP friendly. FIrst, get rid of the CC. Second, upgrade/fix the EC to be more pvp friendly and more friendly to weaker graphics platforms to keep the CC players in. Two clients is stupid. I think they are worried about multi accounters that use CC and are used to it quitting and making their bottom line look bad etc - this is a mistake though - they could easily adjust the EC, let the CC players beta test the changes etc and make it work - it might take a year to do to make sure its bug free etc. I still say without fixing the two clients issue or consolidating the game in certain ways - its very hard to make pvp better at this point.
Making the game item based ensured that the game would 'get old' at some point. Before that happened Uo was timeless because people wern't playing pvp for the leather armor they could loot, but because pvp was fun and easy yet hard to master yet still worth it once you got decent at it. IE it was satisfying. AOS blew that out of the water. This comes back to the desire to turn every RPG game into a D and D remix with every resistance system the same, every game chocked full of 'special items' etc. It was a very very stupid idea - yet UO has so much flexibility PVP can or could still be fun even today. It just needs some work.
One idea I have started to advocate is to change item insurance so that only 3-4 items in total (on a person or in a pack/ equiped or not, doesn't matter) can be insured in Felucca. This way dying in Felucca will mean something again. Second, I propose having 'Felucca' training portals IN trammel. This is to help people who are not used to Felucca ruleset try PVP, introduction to flagging, etc. This could EASILY be done. Uo has just never done it. Finally, allow pvp to come to Trammel. Please allow Reds in Trammel and in Town. Gradually introduce that. This would help introduce people to flagging in a relatively safe way. I'm pretty sure I know why they didn't do that but its lazy on EA's part. They worry reds will come over and try to grief or incite blues to attack etc. I would say simply disallow attacking anything in town in Trammel. Problem solved. By letting Reds come to Trammel there'd be an incentive to actually be Red, provided you were not over the murder count / stat loss etc. That would get rid of the need for those silly Pardons etc.
Allow VvV to occur in Trammel with the difference that Blues cannot be attacked. This way people in Trammel get used to SEEING pvp and experiencing in some way that is SAFE yet educational. They may have conversations 'how did you do that' or 'what pvp equipment is best etc'. I may be ignorant of VvV I am rather new at returning, but the idea of a 'factional' organized way to learn pvp would be helpful given the circumstances.
The seperation of the facets has been too extreme - they need to be reconsidered IMO. No one wants to take away a Trammelite's experience of singe player bliss, but it would help if there were 'reasonable ways' of helping them learn about pvp, flagging, pvp gear, pvp tactics, pvp rhythm, what happens when you die, what happens if you ressurect, how do people deal with griefers, etc. Many people have said kill the current General Chat. I tend to agree, provided they fix other things too. People spamming nonsense is generally not the best part of pvp nor was it ever except for the rare saved picture that was comedic.
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Not sure I understand this, I would say dying in Felucca means way too much to people and is a big part of why people dont go there and do not want to get into PvP in UO, dying to a mob is not a big deal, but being killed by another player is a very different thing, getting used to this takes a while for people who have not done PvP before, the killer taking their gear only makes this worse.
This is actually the essence of why PvP isnt that popular in UO, there is no way to "train" and get used to PvP like there is in other games(instant join team games etc with random teams), PvP in UO is just too bloody personal.
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With all of the gank parties of the past, this wouldn't be possible. However they could allow anyone in any of the facets and allow flagging as they have done it in other games like wow and swg. You would have to toggle PvP ON to become PvP enabled. Have a warning gump pop-up if a non-flagged person does something to cause them to have their flag turned on so that they can either continue the act or cancel so they aren't flagged. If I am PvMing in a dungeon in Fel, I know I can be ganked but at times, I may not want to have to worry about it so a flagging system would be perfect for letting everyone come to all facets. It would allow everyone access to all vendors and city buffs. Fel would stay Fel for thieves and stuff though due to item insurance, there is little point to actual thieves anymore other than stealable rares. I think that there could be a lot of very doable solutions to fix PvP and allow the PvM game style to not be affected. I do think though that the PvP community needs to come together and unify for their own good and that less emphasis by all players on PvP vs PvM play style is concerned. We all love this game and it makes me sad to see the divisions that we have and how it continues to drive off players when we have so few left to begin with.
I agree with this as well though unfortunately I don't see a way of ever doing this. I hated the EC but ended up getting use to it because of the larger screen and the fact that I didn't have to run another program with it. It does just about everything that UO Assist can do and a bit more. I love the customizable bars so that spell tiles aren't everywhere and I accidentally lose one, I can tell right away instead of noticing when I need it. I also love that I don't need a second map program. UO Automap is on it's last leg, I have tried the fixes for it but it doesn't do everything it once did. UO Mapper never works right for me and UO Cartographer has it's flaws too. If they could put the EC tools into the CC, I would be in ecstatic as I am not a fan of the EC graphics but for now I rarely do anything on CC unless I am customizing a house or feeling nostalgic.
I am happy to see that there has been a lot of discussion and effort put into the posts instead of bickering and fighting. We honestly need more dialogue like this on Stratics and in-game. It will help our community to become so much stronger and if the payers had one voice, it would make it easier to communicate with Broadsword for positive changes.
Fire Warrior
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I could not agree more. My suggestion is only useful in context with helping people 'safely' learn PVP and get used to it without 'losing everything every time etc'. The 3-4 item idea is more of an endgame ideal - obviously not the first thing people in Trammel should experience - especially after all these years. I would actually if I were in charge - implement the PVP training areas in Trammel FIRST and primarily. People would be amazed how quickly several bored Trammies would actually start trying it and get interested - why? Its something new to do for them and under their control - instead of an uncontrolled wild and 'traumatizing' experience in Felucca which they may not be prepared for. I loved UO pvp. i have no desire to ruin other players experiences and drive them away from the game. I'd rather grow them into capable pvpers to eventually fight with or against - rather than make fun of them as scaredy cats who 'cant cut it' in Fel. I am a 'WIn Win' person. I have griefed, I have pvped and I have pked. Ive been a part of hard core pvp guilds back in the day, even on Siege Perilous a while back - it was fun, for a while....
With fewer people I am much more interested in a flexibile and aggressive approach to rapproachment - without IMO silly ideas like yeah lets give Trammel powerscrolls (NO). Instead, lets make Trammel more pvp oriented naturally - rather than 'forced'. Carrot over Stick. Which will eventually turn into Trammies with sticks? Who knows
Just an idea.
What would make me try to pvp more often would be
Stop the rez killing have some sort of time out that a player can't be killed unless he or she provokes an attack.
I only use bandaids to heal make them none lootable as well as pots, honestly it's not like they are valuable.
Maybe have some sort of flag that new pvpers can have that makes them none attack able so they can watch and try to learn but if they attack with the flag on they are instantly dead.
Not sure how this one would work but some of us are not as fast with the macros and don't even have any some sort of balance on the key strokes lol just a joke (kinda)
Some of the ideas I have be reading here are good as well
Stop the rez killing have some sort of time out that a player can't be killed unless he or she provokes an attack.
I only use bandaids to heal make them none lootable as well as pots, honestly it's not like they are valuable.
Maybe have some sort of flag that new pvpers can have that makes them none attack able so they can watch and try to learn but if they attack with the flag on they are instantly dead.
Not sure how this one would work but some of us are not as fast with the macros and don't even have any some sort of balance on the key strokes lol just a joke (kinda)
Some of the ideas I have be reading here are good as well
1. No general chat while in Fel.
2. Get rid of this mentality.
Had a huge long rant about it, but figured it would derail the thread. This is the biggest roadblock to people actually participating in pvp is the proliferation of the concept that 3rd party programs are more important than gear, template, skill, consumables and every other possible legal resource you can use. And as much as you hear about it on the boards and in general chat, it must be true. Can't consider yourself a competent pvper if everyone doesn't call you a cheater, don't you know.
3. Pixel Crack based PvP Rewards. Mounts, Colored Cloths, House Deco, the VvV reward system should be as jam packed as the cleanup reward list. Things that are nice and shiny.
Many of us live in Fel and having gen chat taken away from our homes would be annoying AF.
Instead I would rather see no general chat while 'in heat of battle' with another player and no gen chat as a ghost.
Only thing I disagree with is Siege is very far from the fel Pre Ren era that it seems most people want.
Maybe it's time for someone who loves to PvP to start a thread about how to improve the arena system so it gets more use. Some quick ideas for enhancing the arena system might be to have the leaderboards be linked to and accessible from the UO website; have a Vela-like NPC who provides rewards (buffs, anyone?) for points you earn in the arena system; have a separate shard you can copy characters to from any shard so game-wide tournaments are possible without having to pay for shard transfers. (And if the last idea happens as a permanent addition, make sure it accommodates characters from Siege and Mugen this time!)
Here's a link to a description of the arena system on the uo.com website: Player v. Player Arenas – Ultima Online
Here's a link to a description of the arena system on the uo.com website: Player v. Player Arenas – Ultima Online
The problem with that is the devs don't listen to us pvpers. A lot of us were really involved on TC during the combat changes and gave them all types of information that would make it better. We were also involved in pet revamp on TC and let them know about the problems it was gonna cuase. They go and do these meet and greets too, and at the end the devs just do whatever they want and don't listen to the playerbase. Has anyone noticed that since the revamp where your pet will have parry once its wrestling is GM or higher? If you were smart enough to notice that, you probably don't know that all bosses in the game now with GM wrestle also have parry against you. They never had this before and devs don't realize these are side effects of such ridiculous changes to pets/monsters. Im pretty sure if they just sat 20 of us pvpers in a chat room, we could revolutionize pvp in a few days. And a lot of us don't even like each other but we would still get the job done.
So are changes or enhancements to the PvP arena system not even worth discussing here on Stratics in a new thread?
We've tried. On here and in-game. Before the latest pvp changes, when a few of us were talking to Bleak about poison auto-cures (I believe it was @CovenantX repeatedly trying to poison me, and each one auto-cured), he started talking about Mind Blast when he came back. What. When the weaponskill mastery passive was initially changed to include HP (which the pvp'ers were all against, knowing how ridiculous 165 HP would be in pvp), one of the suggestions (from me and others) was to give something like SSI instead of the overcapping of HP Increase.
While the pvp'ers don't agree on a hell of a lot, we all know it's pointless when the devs don't even acknowledge our suggestions and end up implementing their own changes, which usually come out of nowhere...and invariably end up being bad, because people test these things out, give feedback, and it's ignored.
Fire Warrior
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I said in an earlier post just to switch poison back to the old system - whereby poison does not prevent healing. As such, increase the damage from it and/or perhaps tweak the timing of how often/quick/powerful poisoned status *hits*. In the old days when you got poisoned by a poison elemental you needed a few people to heal/cure you. Poison did not prevent healing, it just did alot of damage at lethal and pretty darn good damage at DP. Also if you get rid of the poison prevents healing gimmick (which is what it is a gimmick from 2000 UO:R), you make future adjustments to damage/balance MUCH MUCH EASIER. Part of the problem with pvp is that there is too much 'feature' design and not enough 'fundamentals' consideration. No wonder it isn't handled as well as it should be.
You guys are talking about changing the tile on the floor when there is no house for the tile as it is. Your problems are issues but changing poison or auto cure is not going to save pvp. What I'm talking about is a entire new pvp system to get people to participate
Although I would like to see it gone (which is 100% due to my disliking poison immunity, admittedly), it was one example to show that they will do/talk about something COMPLETELY unrelated to what's currently being discussed. Honestly, how do you go from two people suggesting "get rid of poison auto-cures" to "What should we do about Mind Blast?"
...come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I even saw someone USE Mind Blast in a fight.
You're right though, there's A LOT that needs to be fixed with pvp...but the game as a whole could use it too. EA not treating the game like a redheaded stepchild would be a VERY good start. We all know they have the money.
What your really talking about is a debate between the CC and EC and no one cares.
What it needs is balance, without balance there is no need to add anything else to pvp. Point systems are no good or leaderboards, cause they will just get abused, look what happened to faction point system. All that would prove is who plays more often and take advantage of it. With the high end gear that can be gotten, maybe its time to raise the HP cap on players to help even out that nonsense. I say bring back sigils into VVV, add vendors and ownership of towns. Sigil timer should be drastically reduced to like 30 min to corrupt them and not the old 8 hours. Could even add in little things like champion bosses tele around dungeons when their health drops below a certain point, to help alleviate the mass grinders. Give the people who use less numbers a chance to contend against a big zerg. Just some ideas that come to mind.
I tried EC hated it. But it's at least legit and you know the person is not using any scripts on the other end or 3rd party programs. I would be a shame for @messana to make a new pvp system and see it fail because of 3rd party programs. And newer people are getting slaughtered because of them which discourages them from playing.
Until @messana can promise us a honest pvp system I do not feel this community will grow.,
Until @messana can promise us a honest pvp system I do not feel this community will grow.,
I would also like to see a faction dungeon in gel that caps out your luck. And drops legendaries and Artie's that cannot be sold to other players. Most pvpers will farm creating more dungeon pvp