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What would entice you to pvp in UO?

805connection

Sage
Stratics Veteran
So This is a post for all people who currently do not pvp..

I have currently taken a break from PVP due to the lack of competition. It seems I am fighting the same two or three guilds constantly and over two or three months it just lost its appeal.

It brings me to my questions:

What would make you participate in pvp?

I will start off.

Gen Chat should be removed from UO. We should goto a PM System. Or town based chat system.

General Chat has taken the fun out of pvp. **** talking is fine on screen but someone spamming about your life is another story (I for one done this very many times to people) . People subconsciously will avoid pvp to not deal with trolls. A Normal person just wants to have fun and not be constantly reminded of him dying two or three days ago. Gen Chat allows this.

I would love to hear others feedback on what would lure them into pvp and maybe we can develop a win win situation.. I do feel when the game is active with pvp content it helps boost the pvm economy so we all have something to gain here.
 

Kylie Kinslayer

Stratics Legend
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
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Awards
1
The simple answer? For the rampant cheating programs to all fall by the wayside OR to have them all listed as "approved programs".

I personally have no problems dying to a player who is a better player than I am, heck, I have done it often over the years when raided. There is no difference in seeing a grey screen by a player than there is seeing a grey screen from a critter... errr... ok.. a slight difference.. The T-Rex does not stand there and trash talk ya once you are down.. but that is whatever... I do however have a problem with getting rolled over by someone using which ever latest program almost sticks them in God mode...
 

DJAd

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
People need to not take it so seriously for a start. Its a video game!

I've seen players (On Atlantic mainly) who are obviously new to PvP go to Yew gate, get smashed then then get trolled like crazy in general chat (as mentioned above). Then they never return. Then the hardcore players wonder why there is nobody to fight?

There is too much of a gap / learning curve for new players vs the hardcore PvP players who have much more experience and know what they are doing.
 
Last edited:

Sauteed Onion

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
At this point there is 2 fairly distinct crowds with some stragglers.

Crowd A will never view PVP as ' end game'. They just won't. There are weird critters like me who just want to fish and raid the latest peerless and relieve them of their precious loot and suckle down a pitcher of milk at random players establishment. I would say this is about 70% of the UO POPULATION.

Then crowd B, their whole UO existence is about advancement of skill and gear.. And learning new ways of decimating their foe. PVP is the unmitigated champion of late night sleep stealing, they love seeing item insurance money deposit into their bank accounts, not becauae it puts the fish steaks on the table, but because it informs them their dedication to destroying their calculating random foe and sending them to oblivion or a wandering healer paid off! YES THE EXCITEMENT!

Stragglers make a negligible portion of the uo marketplace I believe. They may enjoy a quick rez gank here and there for drama or lolz, or get owned and do something else for a while but, they will log in and do whatever whenever.

Cheating and scripting exists in all three crowds, but not everyone does it.

After 20 years many people dont pvp because mentality B just does not appeal or apply to them. That is NOT a bad thing, in ANY WAY SHAPE OR (cat) FORM.

UO needs advertising. And that fixes alot of issues. Secondly be a UO dork and tell your frirnds at work or random people why you have bags under your eyes. Do some personal advertising, run a blog site and mention it, give back to your game where you can. It will help.
 

Great DC

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I have stopped pvping myself due to little to no competition. A lot of it has to do with 3rd party programs and lack of balance. Its funny when I read on some free shards that they are capable of removing parts of some 3rd part party programs from being used with ease. Why doesn't OSI do the same thing. As much as some people think, that last combat patch did nothing but empower mages and crush every other template in pvp. I mainly play a mage and I think its ridiculous. Pure melee dexxers are still completely useless in pvp unless you have stealth and hiding. They nerfed archery a bit too much, AI should still be 35 cap, I am fine with the moving shot change. But then again the moving shot issue was unlimited mana to spend on it, due to power creep of global loot and 55 lmc suits. Weapon specials should be just that special, not use it non stop as regular attack. Its all a joke anymore, there is very few people left in UO with any real talent, just exploiters and programs users. And yes the smacktalk in GC is too much as well, especially in ATL. Maybe they should just have GC not work once you enter felucca, you can see others selling and stuff from trammel but cant type anything.
 

805connection

Sage
Stratics Veteran
So, you are saying
There is not enough gold in all of Sosaria that would entice me to try PvP in UO once more, the glory days have gone and replaced by this shallow gank'fest kids today call PvP....
how about capture the flag dungeons on foot with random teams for speical dies or mounts? or pvp gear scrolls alacritys, trans, crafting supplies, random no names.
 

Sauteed Onion

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
I think making gc facet specific would help. Want to talk across shard? Join a guild or find an out of game voice service or something. That was my suggestion like 5 years ago. Honestly I had a phase where I just turned GC off, but I started... Well missing it. Not the trash talk so much, but I wanted to sell loot without standing in Luna or where ever.. Another problem with UO. Not Luna houses or vendors.. But LUNA itself. That is THE WORST LUMP OF BLOCKS IN THE GAME. Ostridge beak yellow castle walls... For miles. Please let me redesign that hell hole.. Or something. Ick.
 

805connection

Sage
Stratics Veteran
I have stopped pvping myself due to little to no competition. A lot of it has to do with 3rd party programs and lack of balance. Its funny when I read on some free shards that they are capable of removing parts of some 3rd part party programs from being used with ease. Why doesn't OSI do the same thing. As much as some people think, that last combat patch did nothing but empower mages and crush every other template in pvp. I mainly play a mage and I think its ridiculous. Pure melee dexxers are still completely useless in pvp unless you have stealth and hiding. They nerfed archery a bit too much, AI should still be 35 cap, I am fine with the moving shot change. But then again the moving shot issue was unlimited mana to spend on it, due to power creep of global loot and 55 lmc suits. Weapon specials should be just that special, not use it non stop as regular attack. Its all a joke anymore, there is very few people left in UO with any real talent, just exploiters and programs users. And yes the smacktalk in GC is too much as well, especially in ATL. Maybe they should just have GC not work once you enter felucca, you can see others selling and stuff from trammel but cant type anything.
The only way to stop cheating is switch everyone over to EC. and kill Classic Client,

Maybe, make pvp dungeons that are only accessible through classic client?
 

Great DC

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Cheating is all ego-based, remove the egomaniacs with perma bans. Once a huge example is made about cheating people will think twice about it. Ive played CC my entire UO life and I don't cheat. Im still a good pvper, its not hard.
 

805connection

Sage
Stratics Veteran
lets keep this on topic.

So far I have,
Remove Gen Chat(me and a few others)
Give a valid reason to pvp
Remove CC
Single PvP shard with Insurance
Cross Realm pvp

so this would make you interested in pvping?
 

WhiteWitch

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
I seriously doubt adding item insurance to Siege would suddenly fill the shard with players, infact I wouldnt be surprised if it would make quite a few of its current players leave as this debate has gone back and forth for a while and there seem to be fairly even numbers for and against it.

The solution to this one is probably a mixture of a number of things

The trash talk in GC is definitely offfputting, and the general pissing contest attitude a lot of PvPers have, this is probably why certain other games prevent rival factions being able to actually communicate with each other, it also doesnt help that cheating and speedhacking seem to be an almost accepted part of PvP, with people even discussing what they use in GC sometimes.
Making a PvP channel you get switched to when you enter Fel would help maybe, you would need to be able to re enter GC while in Fel though as people have houses there and want to be able to talk on it, whether this would mean PvPers immediately switched back to GC when entering Fel I dont know.

I think PvP in UO is just too hard to get into and initially very offputting, its like getting thrown in the deep end with a load of pirhanas, a completely unforgiving and fairly humiliating experience for new players, I would bet that of every 50 people who try it, about 2 or 3 actually get through to the other side where they start to enjoy it.

how about capture the flag dungeons on foot with random teams for speical dies or mounts? or pvp gear scrolls alacritys, trans, crafting supplies, random no names.
This is more like it, taking a cue from other games where PvP is more popular, the ability to just click and enter a match(such as CTF etc) with random balanced teams, with an actual objective that you all work for and a reward if your team wins, this allows new players and less experienced ones to get PvP experience in a less hostile enviroment(as opposed to getting ganked 5v1 at VvV or elsewhere in Fel).
Players need to be able to learn how to handle themselves in PvP and these sorts of low pressure team games are the best way, getting stomped by often superior numbers of experienced PvPers and then laughed at in Gchat isnt very rewarding.
 

Merlin

The Enchanter
Moderator
Professional
Governor
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Campaign Patron
1) A lower barrier to entry in terms of costs is the most important area of PVP that needs to be overcome if you want to attract more players. After the global loot changes and the rise of the 'uber suit', it became increasingly more and more difficult for lower tier players to partake and have any chance of being competitive. This cost is more than just the gold spent on a suit, but the amount of time that goes into building an uber suit around a very specific template. It's simply not going to attract casual players to PVP and those casual players will then never have the opportunity to be a more serious advanced PVP players.

The problem here is the economy is too far deep into "global loot changes" to roll this back and make any sort of adjustment. However, I see no way to change the top tier of 25 or 30 people that have several characters decked out in multi-platinum suits. They're simply going to wreck EVERYONE ALWAYS. That makes it no fun for the other people on the 'come-up' who are trying to work their way up the ladder. The gap between the bottom and top needs to be tightened some how.

2) The other concern for me currently is the 'general attitude' of other PVPers. By all means, I can appreciate a little smack talk... and I understand there are other games which are FAR worse than UO... but it seems now like every raid or PVP instance is followed up with out right disrespectful trolling and griefing. I have pretty thick skin, but I'm not going to participate in something that 95% of the time turns into a personal insult war. The honor and chivalry of a good fight have waned significantly over the past five years...

Sadly, its the same few bad eggs that seem to ruin the fun for much of the community, because I do know there are plenty of folks who love to PVP but don't act like a total jerks about it. However... this also inadvertently relates to one of the issues I brought up in point #1: I would be more inclined to spend the amount of time to work out the precise calculations of a suit and template if the activity I was doing it for was more fun. It's a catch 22.

_______________

I'm aware that it's easier to identify a problem than to come up with a solution and those two points above are very broad based and difficult to over come. I think any potential solutions need to keep those points in mind if they're even going to make a dent into breathing some fresh air back into PVP.
 

Lord Arm

Certifiable
Governor
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
if things were fair I would enjoy pvp a lot more. I really don't care anymore due to cheating, royal pardens, and vvv.
I use to enjoy hopping on my red to kill blues or getting on my blue to kill reds. royal pardens really destroyed this part. vvv sucks for people in small group because everyone is an enemy. i used to solo pvp alot but cant do this well without dieing. when hunting with friends and one or more is vvv. next thing u know, everyone is orange and accidently hitting each other lol. best pvp I had is when there was no factions or vvv. it was the most fair and fun time I had in pvp. I don't need free stuff or an advantage to fight but some do. just my opinions
 

WhiteWitch

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Nobody said to add item insurance to Siege...
So you seriously think they would make ANOTHER odd ball fel shard like Siege just with insurance, with all the adaptions and changes they already have to do every patch tailored with changes for the Siege ruleset, on the offchance that just having insurance would be the holy grail of changes that fill it with players?

That will not happen, and they would be fools to do it.
 

Dizzy

Lore Master
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Benefactor
Not possible. My pvp days were 10 years ago, and i don't have the time to practice or the gear. Or the reaction time.

I don't play UO for the conflict.
 

Fire Warrior

Adventurer
I think PVP is definitely doable. However - it will never be what it should be without a PVP dedicated dev team to manage it. It really comes down to having the proper people in place at that level with no strings attached or absurd limitations etc.

Details..... well here is what I'd recommend.

#1. 'Twitch' PVP - If you allow what I call 'overly precise, high speed gameplay' also known as 'twitch' to dominate pvp - then scripters will always win - this will kill interest in PVP for a VERY LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE. It isn't about banning some 3rd party progs although that may help. Nice idea but it won't work. Better idea is to alter game design very slightly to eliminate the incentive for their excessive use - naturally bringing back a good balance to PVP by allowing a player who DOES NOT USE THEM to compete very well against those that do. THIS will work and it will draw people back into PVP for sure.

#1a Generally speaking, you must NOT allow combinations of moves to be used by a script that could not be easily replicated via a normal macro. The way to do that is to 'design out' the incentive to use scripts in pvp. There are many creative and effective ways to do this without ruining any skills whatsoever. What we see by EA in general (hard to comment on Broadsword) is a lack of effort and interest in doing so - and this is the larger issue, NOT weather it can be done or not. YES IT CAN BE DONE AND SHOULD BE.

#1b The use of shurikens/darts , potions, enhancing items, changing suits in mid horse stride and all similar issues. Eliminate the incentive to do this stuff in pvp. This is not that hard to fix. Simply put more cooldowns on using this stuff. Potions should be relevant but not DOMINANT. Changing clothes/skill items should TAKE TIME - not be easily done quickly back and forth over and over. Perfectly timing throwing potions on targets etc should be curtailed/simplified/improved so that scripts have ZERO advantage over a regular player in practice. THIS IS VERY VERY DOABLE.

#2. Spell Spamming. In the old days this was how you killed people. Make this difficult to do at least in the sense of pay more attention to spell timing. Some spells really need to be sped up,
others should be slowed down a bit. One way to eliminate this issue is to increase spell damage on some spells and slow down their casting speed - this makes them useful without making it easy to just spam people to death with them. The combination of this will help maintain a healthy pvp balance. When the speed is too fast, it makes it impossible for regular players who arn't using scripts or have super fast pings to compete with those that do. Yet players just making normal macros could easily compete against scripters if this was more carefully balanced. This is an SIMPLE change that could be done relatively quickly with enough testing. The notion I expressed here will give a net gain to the regular player against the scripter.

#3. Bring back combos. The whole 'can;t have special moves up while casting' is stupid - this would even help wrestling and can easily be handled via normal macros. This is what made pvp fun. If something is overpowered - merely semi nerf it for pvp, but don't destroy it or prevent people from comboing - this is idiotic. I understand why they did it, in a way it helps people learn what even is happening to them, theoretically and I sympathize - but ultimately combos should be brought back - its better for pvp and MUCH more fun, especially if the other issues I mention here are addressed.

#4. Poison - I can fix this easily. In the old days of UO - you could heal through poison, but deadly and lethal poison would do ALOT of damage even if you did heal, this was great! Much more interesting yet still allowed teams of people to keep a person alive while people tried desperately to cure lethal (From poison ele's). There was not some cheap - cheesy way that prevented crosshealing. I always felt this was silly and there should not be that many moves that prevent healing alltogether. I understand why its setup the way it is now but my idea is much better IMO overall. PVP was always about being able to do alot of damage in different ways , not hitting each other with random junk and saying 'well met sir player you hit me for 10 damage hahaha'. What a joke.

#5. Item insurance. There is alot I could say about it. I have thought about how to deal with the current dilemma. I believe it should be changed to 3-4 items only on a person at a time.
Why this much? Simple. At this point in the game there needs to be a balance between item insurance and lootable items. Also because of item insurance - everyone MUST have an uber suit to even PVP or else you are at a disadvantage - way too much of one IMO - no wonder people hesitate to get into PVP. This is a debatable point but its my preference. By having some insurance you allow people to have what they love - a few items that they are attached to and will not lose - whoo hoo! An identity they can keep - without losing their favorite weapon or helmet or chest armor or gloves or ring. However the rest of their stuff is lootable - meaning they will have to be more strategic/efficient in what they use/take into pvp. This will make pvp more attractive without ruining people's attachment to their own unique setups - which since they can have 3-4 items insured are still easily possible and relevant.

In addition, my idea would allow an infinite combination of relevant equipment. Right now you will always end up with a cookie cutter sooner or later. Using my idea (this idea), that goes away quickly. Whoa to the item sellers hahahaha. :) But don't worry you'll still be in business.

#6. Mortal Blow etc - simply put - make Mortal blow impossible to remove (Sorry paladins) and make the cooldowns on enchanted apples 5 minutes. These are meant to be used in special situations - not spammed to prevent game effects from even being used. Silly the way it is now IMO (debatable perhaps due to boss monster curses? you tell me).

#7. Allow paralyse fields to be more effective against tamed animals - this will prevent pvp tamers with 'spamming people' with monsters - auto follow etc as easily. Therefore you will have to manage your beast well - no cheap thrills against anyone that knows anything. Don't like parafields? Dispell em.

#8. Why should people pvp if there is no incentive? The previous issues I've mentioned cover some of the issues as to why people won't even try it. Why is it that there are so few places people can even practice pvp without putting in a substantial effort to set things up? Exactly. The game has gotten too item based - this wastes TONS of time. Whatever $$$ EA thinks it makes by making the game this way also COSTS THEM customers who would otherwise pay the near max. Counter productive assumptions are/were made because lazy business people wanted to make UO 'automatic' instead of a living game. Honestly some business people (not all) would not understand this games potential if it slapped them in the face. Huge problem which we don't have time to correct but worth mentioning.

#9. Its silly to have people running around with whole backup suits of armor for 'situations'. Great job by the player to innovate and use that, TERRIBLE job by the company of forcing people to do that! Idiocy. More skill based, less item based (but still plenty) is the right way to go. If you take my item insurance idea it will TOTALLY GUT that way of doing things. Of all my ideas I like #5 the best personally. If some people dislike it - fine I would allow full item insurance in trammel, but ONLY 3-4 items will remain insured in FEL. Yet FEL will have better rewards. Choose wisely.

The whole premise of my POV is to give the players CHOICES. Not merely ITEM CHOICES.

My insurance idea alone would completely change the game and yet insurance will still be very popular and needed in order to allow people to have some attachment to the effort they put in to create and maintain their character. I have NP with this idea, its great to have unique characters and personalities etc. This is why I'm ok with SOME item insurance. And again, if people that want full suits of perfect stuff want their Trammel experience, hey! No problem.

Lets at least make Felucca not suck? Or can we at least change SP into 3-4 item insurance and use the modern skill gain system? Innovate!

#10 - I was reading the other posts in this thread just now. I just returned to the game so I have some catching up to do. However, it sounds like GENERAL CHAT is a great annoyance to PVPER's in general. The solution is to add an option to TURN IT OFF, PERIOD. This way the player does not have to experience this nonsense. And please, make it easy!

Conclusion : These are just some ideas gathered over many years of watching UO PVP. I did not cover everything so do not take offense. Nor are these ideas perfect. Otherwise, feel free to comment, thanks.
 
Last edited:

The Slug

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I don't know if it's strictly on topic, or even helpful. But create a Tram only ruleset shard outside of VVV and guild warfare. Within a week 80% of the entire UO population will be there, and within a month all transfers on and off the shard would have to be cut off as those "elite" pvper's would also show up for the easy PS. Griefing would be taken to a whole new level. It would be a fascinating social experiment, but likely doomed to failure. I guess in summary I'd say that with some notable exceptions, the PVP community seems to be its own worst enemy
 

805connection

Sage
Stratics Veteran
I think PVP is definitely doable. However - it will never be what it should be without a PVP dedicated dev team to manage it. It really comes down to having the proper people in place at that level with no strings attached or absurd limitations etc.

Details..... well here is what I'd recommend.

#1. 'Twitch' PVP - If you allow what I call 'overly precise, high speed gameplay' also known as 'twitch' to dominate pvp - then scripters will always win - this will kill interest in PVP for a VERY LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE. It isn't about banning some 3rd party progs although that may help. Nice idea but it won't work. Better idea is to alter game design very slightly to eliminate the incentive for their excessive use - naturally bringing back a good balance to PVP by allowing a player who DOES NOT USE THEM to compete very well against those that do. THIS will work and it will draw people back into PVP for sure.

#1a Generally speaking, you must NOT allow combinations of moves to be used by a script that could not be easily replicated via a normal macro. The way to do that is to 'design out' the incentive to use scripts in pvp. There are many creative and effective ways to do this without ruining any skills whatsoever. What we see by EA in general (hard to comment on Broadsword) is a lack of effort and interest in doing so - and this is the larger issue, NOT weather it can be done or not. YES IT CAN BE DONE AND SHOULD BE.

#1b The use of shurikens/darts , potions, enhancing items, changing suits in mid horse stride and all similar issues. Eliminate the incentive to do this stuff in pvp. This is not that hard to fix. Simply put more cooldowns on using this stuff. Potions should be relevant but not DOMINANT. Changing clothes/skill items should TAKE TIME - not be easily done quickly back and forth over and over. Perfectly timing throwing potions on targets etc should be curtailed/simplified/improved so that scripts have ZERO advantage over a regular player in practice. THIS IS VERY VERY DOABLE.

#2. Spell Spamming. In the old days this was how you killed people. Make this difficult to do at least in the sense of pay more attention to spell timing. Some spells really need to be sped up,
others should be slowed down a bit. One way to eliminate this issue is to increase spell damage on some spells and slow down their casting speed - this makes them useful without making it easy to just spam people to death with them. The combination of this will help maintain a healthy pvp balance. When the speed is too fast, it makes it impossible for regular players who arn't using scripts or have super fast pings to compete with those that do. Yet players just making normal macros could easily compete against scripters if this was more carefully balanced. This is an SIMPLE change that could be done relatively quickly with enough testing. The notion I expressed here will give a net gain to the regular player against the scripter.

#3. Bring back combos. The whole 'can;t have special moves up while casting' is stupid - this would even help wrestling and can easily be handled via normal macros. This is what made pvp fun. If something is overpowered - merely semi nerf it for pvp, but don't destroy it or prevent people from comboing - this is idiotic. I understand why they did it, in a way it helps people learn what even is happening to them, theoretically and I sympathize - but ultimately combos should be brought back - its better for pvp and MUCH more fun, especially if the other issues I mention here are addressed.

#4. Poison - I can fix this easily. In the old days of UO - you could heal through poison, but deadly and lethal poison would do ALOT of damage even if you did heal, this was great! Much more interesting yet still allowed teams of people to keep a person alive while people tried desperately to cure lethal (From poison ele's). There was not some cheap - cheesy way that prevented crosshealing. I always felt this was silly and there should not be that many moves that prevent healing alltogether. I understand why its setup the way it is now but my idea is much better IMO overall. PVP was always about being able to do alot of damage in different ways , not hitting each other with random junk and saying 'well met sir player you hit me for 10 damage hahaha'. What a joke.

#5. Item insurance. There is alot I could say about it. I have thought about how to deal with the current dilemma. I believe it should be changed to 3-4 items only on a person at a time.
Why this much? Simple. At this point in the game there needs to be a balance between item insurance and lootable items. Also because of item insurance - everyone MUST have an uber suit to even PVP or else you are at a disadvantage - way too much of one IMO - no wonder people hesitate to get into PVP. This is a debatable point but its my preference. By having some insurance you allow people to have what they love - a few items that they are attached to and will not lose - whoo hoo! An identity they can keep - without losing their favorite weapon or helmet or chest armor or gloves or ring. However the rest of their stuff is lootable - meaning they will have to be more strategic/efficient in what they use/take into pvp. This will make pvp more attractive without ruining people's attachment to their own unique setups - which since they can have 3-4 items insured are still easily possible and relevant.

In addition, my idea would allow an infinite combination of relevant equipment. Right now you will always end up with a cookie cutter sooner or later. Using my idea (this idea), that goes away quickly. Whoa to the item sellers hahahaha. :) But don't worry you'll still be in business.

#6. Mortal Blow etc - simply put - make Mortal blow impossible to remove (Sorry paladins) and make the cooldowns on enchanted apples 5 minutes. These are meant to be used in special situations - not spammed to prevent game effects from even being used. Silly the way it is now IMO (debatable perhaps due to boss monster curses? you tell me).

#7. Allow paralyse fields to be more effective against tamed animals - this will prevent pvp tamers with 'spamming people' with monsters - auto follow etc as easily. Therefore you will have to manage your beast well - no cheap thrills against anyone that knows anything. Don't like parafields? Dispell em.

#8. Why should people pvp if there is no incentive? The previous issues I've mentioned cover some of the issues as to why people won't even try it. Why is it that there are so few places people can even practice pvp without putting in a substantial effort to set things up? Exactly. The game has gotten too item based - this wastes TONS of time. Whatever $$$ EA thinks it makes by making the game this way also COSTS THEM customers who would otherwise pay the near max. Counter productive assumptions are/were made because lazy business people wanted to make UO 'automatic' instead of a living game. Honestly some business people (not all) would not understand this games potential if it slapped them in the face. Huge problem which we don't have time to correct but worth mentioning.

#9. Its silly to have people running around with whole backup suits of armor for 'situations'. Great job by the player to innovate and use that, TERRIBLE job by the company of forcing people to do that! Idiocy. More skill based, less item based (but still plenty) is the right way to go. If you take my item insurance idea it will TOTALLY GUT that way of doing things. Of all my ideas I like #5 the best personally. If some people dislike it - fine I would allow full item insurance in trammel, but ONLY 3-4 items will remain insured in FEL. Yet FEL will have better rewards. Choose wisely.


Conclusion : These are just some ideas gathered over many years of watching UO PVP. I did not cover everything so do not take offense. Nor are these ideas perfect. Otherwise, feel free to comment, thanks.
What a great post very well thought out,

I feel any legendary looted should be soul-bound to the account, that being said I think legendarily should drop on all champ spawns. and dungeon bosses.

I have some other ideas, but its not pvp focused however EA should set new scroll and stat caps so everyone can go refarm powerscrolls and stat scrolls and armor again. keep doing this every year with an expansion so everyone needs to continue to update their gear.

This gear can also be acquired through pvp, i am not re inventing the wheel here I am just following a proven system. Even a MOBA version of uo for enhanced client users where you kill monsters and buy gear and fight against other uo players doing the same thing to get a nice ranking. This game needs some changes.
 

805connection

Sage
Stratics Veteran
I don't know if it's strictly on topic, or even helpful. But create a Tram only ruleset shard outside of VVV and guild warfare. Within a week 80% of the entire UO population will be there, and within a month all transfers on and off the shard would have to be cut off as those "elite" pvper's would also show up for the easy PS. Griefing would be taken to a whole new level. It would be a fascinating social experiment, but likely doomed to failure. I guess in summary I'd say that with some notable exceptions, the PVP community seems to be its own worst enemy
The pvp community is pretty worthless. Its like a dog chasing its tail and going nowhere.

PvPers will always pvp no matter what system is put into place. But the problem is we are not replenishing our stock and developing new people into the community. we are chasing them away and killing ourselves. For multiple different reasons of course. Gate Trash PvP, has reached its max potential and is absolutely boring but the only currently source of pvp. we need to move away from that and introduce a entire new spectrum of pvp. So when thinking of your ideas please dont think about gate pvp remove that from your head and think what would make me want to pvp.

Combos
Mounts
Items
Titles
Dyes.
New Spawns and scrolls
Battle Grounds
Arena.

Pet Duels

Post out your thoughts a lot of people may share your interest.
 

BeaIank

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Unfortunately, it wouldn't be possible to entice me to PvP on video games.
I used to enjoy some player vs player action on games like Street Fighter, King of Fighters and whatnot during the time arcades were still around, but also lost interest on those when the competition stopped to be in person to be online.
I get my fix by legally punching people in the face or legally getting my face punched at the boxing gym I go to instead. :)
 

805connection

Sage
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Sorry but the EC is built for scripting - it has all sorts of hooks available to do almost any thing. Look at all the marvelous stuff pinco has built in.
Yeah another topic man. I dont disagree with you. But UOs development is being held back by older code. and there might be new things available to the game that cannot be done on classic client Private message system. Party Bars, Q times for pvp. Cool downs. Casting changes.
 

805connection

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1) A lower barrier to entry in terms of costs is the most important area of PVP that needs to be overcome if you want to attract more players. After the global loot changes and the rise of the 'uber suit', it became increasingly more and more difficult for lower tier players to partake and have any chance of being competitive. This cost is more than just the gold spent on a suit, but the amount of time that goes into building an uber suit around a very specific template. It's simply not going to attract casual players to PVP and those casual players will then never have the opportunity to be a more serious advanced PVP players.

The problem here is the economy is too far deep into "global loot changes" to roll this back and make any sort of adjustment. However, I see no way to change the top tier of 25 or 30 people that have several characters decked out in multi-platinum suits. They're simply going to wreck EVERYONE ALWAYS. That makes it no fun for the other people on the 'come-up' who are trying to work their way up the ladder. The gap between the bottom and top needs to be tightened some how.

2) The other concern for me currently is the 'general attitude' of other PVPers. By all means, I can appreciate a little smack talk... and I understand there are other games which are FAR worse than UO... but it seems now like every raid or PVP instance is followed up with out right disrespectful trolling and griefing. I have pretty thick skin, but I'm not going to participate in something that 95% of the time turns into a personal insult war. The honor and chivalry of a good fight have waned significantly over the past five years...

Sadly, its the same few bad eggs that seem to ruin the fun for much of the community, because I do know there are plenty of folks who love to PVP but don't act like a total jerks about it. However... this also inadvertently relates to one of the issues I brought up in point #1: I would be more inclined to spend the amount of time to work out the precise calculations of a suit and template if the activity I was doing it for was more fun. It's a catch 22.

_______________

I'm aware that it's easier to identify a problem than to come up with a solution and those two points above are very broad based and difficult to over come. I think any potential solutions need to keep those points in mind if they're even going to make a dent into breathing some fresh air back into PVP.
See you can easily do a trade chat. With a PM system.

I think we are in agreement Gen Chat PvP Needs to die as well. There is one member of the pvp community who threatened to send a Dic Pic to another pvpers family over facebook.
 

CovenantX

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Oh, well damn..

Aside from the Pet-revamps affects on pvp.

Removal of Casting Focus.
Removal of Poisoning skill's "Poison Immunity".
Revert the changes to Archery > Armor Ignore.
Replace the "always physical" with a -25% damage penalty on Moving shot.

Reduce Parry chances down to 20% for shield users If their "weapon skill" is Wrestling or Anatomy+Eval-int.
Parry chance should be enabled with "balanced" weapons (melee only) and mirrior the same chance as wrestling + parry. (20% cap)

Add a 5 second cool-down to Cure Potions
Significantly increase the damage of "Poison ticks", but it should be easily cured with existing curing methods.
(Orange petals & vampire form would still fail to cure level 4 & 5 poison).

Implement a "focus spec" for Pure Dexers. (they simply do not exist anywhere in pvp anymore).

Completely remove the Tactics requirement for weapon specials.
Armor Ignores "cap" should scale based on tactics skill. (so that it's not equally effective for all templates)
 

805connection

Sage
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Oh, well damn..

Aside from the Pet-revamps affects on pvp.

Removal of Casting Focus.
Removal of Poisoning skill's "Poison Immunity".
Revert the changes to Archery > Armor Ignore.
Replace the "always physical" with a -25% damage penalty on Moving shot.

Reduce Parry chances down to 20% for shield users If their "weapon skill" is Wrestling or Anatomy+Eval-int.
Parry chance should be enabled with "balanced" weapons (melee only) and mirrior the same chance as wrestling + parry. (20% cap)

Add a 5 second cool-down to Cure Potions
Significantly increase the damage of "Poison ticks", but it should be easily cured with existing curing methods.
(Orange petals & vampire form would still fail to cure level 4 & 5 poison).

Implement a "focus spec" for Pure Dexers. (they simply do not exist anywhere in pvp anymore).

Completely remove the Tactics requirement for weapon specials.
Armor Ignores "cap" should scale based on tactics skill. (so that it's not equally effective for all templates)
So Do nothing except tweak a few skills and you feel that would make you pvp?

Again I am not looking for pvpers feedback here I am looking for people who current do not pvp and wondering what system would excite enough to start investing more time into pvp.
 

Prince Erik

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What would bring me to try PvP again? The above posts cover most of it pretty well. I will also throw out now that I'm older by 20 years, stress in my life has increased quite a bit from when I first started this game and the adrenol rush was fun. I play now to relax and it's rare I'd even consider going into the pvp arena again.

If I were to, however, there are things that prevent me when my mindset would like a little rush:

* I'm going to lose. I'm going to lose a LOT. Seriously, like EVERY TIME. I'm not a challenge and never will be (see below) so knowing that and what's waiting for me when I do isn't appealing. There have been exceptions now and then - some of my most fun times were in the early days of Siege messing with the Orc RP'ers and some friendly battles with guild allies, but that was before everyone had quadrillion gp suits. If you saw what I wear for PVM, you'd laugh! Some people love the exchange of trash talking but it has zero appeal to me. ;) Seriously the best I can hope for is to "Die Well (tm)."

* Cost of entry and proficiency is just waaaaaay too prohibitive. I'm not just talking equipment. Practice, practice, practice - the 10,000 hour rule applies here. In order to actually defeat ANYONE I'd need to ramp up gear and work on pvp skills to the point that's all I'd be doing for years - and to tell you the truth, since I don't respect cheaters I'd probably always get my arse handed to me even then. Again, 90% of the time I play to relax and I don't believe there's room for the casual pvp'er in today's UO - there just isn't, you're either all in or you're gonna get owned.

* There's no point to it for me - outside of obtaining power scrolls and I don't really consider 5 or 6 experienced pvp'ers taking out 2 or 3 trammel pvm spawners as pvp. That's just a plain out, no challenge slaughterfest accompanied by the obligatory gen chat insults. I'd honestly rather go without power scrolls on most chars than repeatedly do my best mongbat impression. ;)

My pvp friends know how I am and take pity on me and those like me and even give us a pass now and then on a spawn or two. I very much appreciate that and respect how much work it takes to be competitive in pvp, however. Until they make it much, much, much cheaper and easier to compete and have a tiny chance of winning, though, my days of pvp are over.
 

Fire Warrior

Adventurer
See you can easily do a trade chat. With a PM system.

I think we are in agreement Gen Chat PvP Needs to die as well. There is one member of the pvp community who threatened to send a Dic Pic to another pvpers family over facebook.

In my opinion - a majority of so called pvpers today would not last 5 minutes in pre aos much less pre trammel pvp. We the pro's wiped the floor with these wannabe griefers a long long time ago. If they died the only thing people could hear were OOOoo OOo ooOo oOo. We'd be nice and res em and then they'd start whining and pancakes - so I'd be like 'Oh yeah?' Kal Vas Flam ARRuuugGHh! OoooooO oO o ooOOo (probably saying expletives etc, no one cared).

That'll teach ya. And now I'll kill your mount too. Neighh!!! Ugh. You see a corpse of 'a horse'. See 'several corpses of 'poopy pants' or some such. We dealt with those guys back then. When you ruin PVP, it becomes a shadow of its former self. Harsh conditons of felucca allowed the professionals to keep order in felucca and take out the 'trash' if they got out of hand. Now you can't easily do that. Silly. Item insurance is easily the biggest problem with PVP overall. I posted earlier regarding on not eliminating it but yes, change it. Thanks for your compliment btw. This general chat allowing cowards to threaten people is terrible - that wasn't taken lightly in the old days when you could camp someones house with a group of friends and ruin their day or their week. I wasn't an origional griefer - but I DID engage in 'revenge' grief against annoying, bad players. And I enjoyed every minute of it.
 

MalagAste

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The solution for cheating has been given 100's of times... every other day do a small publish that doesn't really change anything but breaks the cheaters cheats... since we all know that after a publish there is generally a 2 or 3 day gap before they update their servers to the publish and can cheat again...

Hire real GMs who know how to spot a multiboxer... and have them actually JAIL the boxers for 24 hours every time they are found... eventually they WILL get the hint... and quit.

Make a point to all the PvP... and find a way to keep it from being exploited... I really enjoyed Factions but it was SERIOUSLY flawed when all they had to do when they couldn't get in from a direct assault was to hop on their alt TB and come in using the runes and kill everyone from the inside... Penalties in place for killing one of your own would stop that....

Finding folk who could "mysteriously" float past any blockade with ease like it wasn't even there was just wrong...

Stuff like that and the attitudes of many keep a lot of folk from participating...

Make it a wargame... build area's that are fun to defend and PvP in ..... and give rewards and incentive to all sides... for winning. But the problem again is in folk exploiting it... Look at VvV... with a few accounts you can get all the rewards with no effort at all...

Look at the example of exploiting "winning" in Factions...

And then when we had a bounty system it was all too easy for your buddy to kill you and claim the reward so you could split it... again if there were ways to make it non-exploitable it would be more "fun" for everyone and less of an irritation...
 

Fire Warrior

Adventurer
The solution for cheating has been given 100's of times... every other day do a small publish that doesn't really change anything but breaks the cheaters cheats... since we all know that after a publish there is generally a 2 or 3 day gap before they update their servers to the publish and can cheat again...

Hire real GMs who know how to spot a multiboxer... and have them actually JAIL the boxers for 24 hours every time they are found... eventually they WILL get the hint... and quit.

Make a point to all the PvP... and find a way to keep it from being exploited... I really enjoyed Factions but it was SERIOUSLY flawed when all they had to do when they couldn't get in from a direct assault was to hop on their alt TB and come in using the runes and kill everyone from the inside... Penalties in place for killing one of your own would stop that....

Finding folk who could "mysteriously" float past any blockade with ease like it wasn't even there was just wrong...

Stuff like that and the attitudes of many keep a lot of folk from participating...

Make it a wargame... build area's that are fun to defend and PvP in ..... and give rewards and incentive to all sides... for winning. But the problem again is in folk exploiting it... Look at VvV... with a few accounts you can get all the rewards with no effort at all...

Look at the example of exploiting "winning" in Factions...

And then when we had a bounty system it was all too easy for your buddy to kill you and claim the reward so you could split it... again if there were ways to make it non-exploitable it would be more "fun" for everyone and less of an irritation...

One of my beefs is that they made too many systems. Therefore the systems will not be properly maintained. Why? They won't assign enough development to every system so what happens? Things lag behind and never catch up to reality and we all suffer (or quit). Therefore lets go the other (opinion) way. Lets unsystem it - and deal with the general issues and allow 'natural' pvp to return - rather than trying to over systemetize and have to over allocate development resources to constantly bug fix.
 

MalagAste

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One of my beefs is that they made too many systems. Therefore the systems will not be properly maintained. Why? They won't assign enough development to every system so what happens? Things lag behind and never catch up to reality and we all suffer (or quit). Therefore lets go the other (opinion) way. Lets unsystem it - and deal with the general issues and allow 'natural' pvp to return - rather than trying to over systemetize and have to over allocate development resources to constantly bug fix.
Personally I'd be happy if they got rid of the CC but... and this is a big one... Then you would get the same garbage making exploits for the EC... though I'm led to believe that that would be significantly more difficult... I'm sure it's not impossible.
 

CovenantX

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The solution for cheating has been given 100's of times... every other day do a small publish that doesn't really change anything but breaks the cheaters cheats... since we all know that after a publish there is generally a 2 or 3 day gap before they update their servers to the publish and can cheat again...
the mini "mandatory" publishes wouldn't work. That literally effects one program (EZ__) that is unnecessary to most of the people "cheating" today, unfortunately.
I mean programs like UO:St**m has very in depth scripting capabilities and features that aren't even available in EC... functions regardless of a "publish" or not, the only thing that would break it would be changing the way UO reads packets, though it may also effect "approved" third-party programs like UO:Assist.

UO:St**lth is most likely the program used by the multi-boxers... (i thought it was funny that Mesanna said people are using KVM switches lol). Possible? yes, very unlikely though.
or something like a paid mutli-boxing program (which supports many different titles) like ISBoxer etc..

Honestly, nothing short of enforcing the RoC/ToS is going to curb cheating tbh. If Mesanna wasn't lying when she said "We can tell if people are cheating", they shouldn't have any excuses as to why these people go unpunished.
 

MalagAste

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the mini "mandatory" publishes wouldn't work. That literally effects one program (EZ__) that is unnecessary to most of the people "cheating" today, unfortunately.
I mean programs like UO:St**m has very in depth scripting capabilities and features that aren't even available in EC... functions regardless of a "publish" or not, the only thing that would break it would be changing the way UO reads packets, though it may also effect "approved" third-party programs like UO:Assist.

UO:St**lth is most likely the program used by the multi-boxers... (i thought it was funny that Mesanna said people are using KVM switches lol). Possible? yes, very unlikely though.
or something like a paid mutli-boxing program (which supports many different titles) like ISBoxer etc..

Honestly, nothing short of enforcing the RoC/ToS is going to curb cheating tbh. If Mesanna wasn't lying when she said "We can tell if people are cheating", they shouldn't have any excuses as to why these people go unpunished.

Because didn't she mention she uses UO diecy slicy???? or some such...
 

CovenantX

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So Do nothing except tweak a few skills and you feel that would make you pvp?
That's what I normally talk about with guildies when UO-pvp comes up in conversation.

Again I am not looking for pvpers feedback here I am looking for people who current do not pvp and wondering what system would excite enough to start investing more time into pvp.
I'm not the one to ask how to get people that aren't interested in pvp to get into it.

as far as New players though, getting them interested into the game in general has to be the starting point, it seems to be a problem with UO as the learning curve is very steep with so many elusive things that would involve a lot of research, testing, or other people to explain it.

That being said, I wonder how the "New Player Experience" is going?
 
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805connection

Sage
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EC is a bit more managable when it comes to cheating. Personally I feel that they can develop a pvp system only for people who use EC battlegrounds or dungeon pvp zones and only get there through EC..
If you want to stick to pvp in fel like normal you can still do that through CC, and continue to gate fight or idoc fight like you have been doing.

However a new Battle group for EC specific players removes Cheat Engine Introduces new uo pvper to A HIGHER more advanced demographic of players who currently pvp in other games.
 

sacred fungus

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A battleground type encounter.


Also due to the lack of reds these days, there is not much blue vs red pvp. Blues showing up in numbers to fight a couple reds was a good way for a novice to get some experience. Now you have to join VVV. If you don't already have some friends in VVV, most likely you will be the one that is outnumbered. I feel that a big deterrent to someone who does not have much pvp experience
 

CovenantX

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Because didn't she mention she uses UO diecy slicy???? or some such...
haha, that was UO: L**P she was referring to, I was the person she said it to. (I use it occasionally to repeat macros, instead of the whole "Coin trick").
 

CovenantX

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EC is a bit more managable when it comes to cheating. Personally I feel that they can develop a pvp system only for people who use EC battlegrounds or dungeon pvp zones and only get there through EC..
There's no doubt they could do it, I don't think it's a particularely great idea to exclude the CC portion of the player-base. But Ilshenar was originally only able to be explored by the Third Dawn Client (original 3d client), until Lord blackthorn's Revenge came out.
 

805connection

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There's no doubt they could do it, I don't think it's a particularely great idea to exclude the CC portion of the player-base. But Ilshenar was originally only able to be explored by the Third Dawn Client (original 3d client), until Lord blackthorn's Revenge came out.
I thought about that but we are looking to move forward, however if there was an entire new pvp system only developed for EC, yes some of the CC players are stuck in their ways and we are not punishing them at all.. We are just focusing on an area that could generate subscribers or bring more pvpers. I have never played EC ever, but I believe UO is being held back by CC.
 

Merus

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The most fun I ever had in PvP was pre-AOS... when gear had maybe 2 or 3 variants and had minimal impact on the outcome of a fight. Aside from the cheating, I think people would feel more prone to PvP if it wasn't quite so hard (and expensive) to have a competitive suit. When you have folks running hybrid templates with virtually every mod for both mages and dexxers maxxed out and adding in 80+ skill points, we have reach the point beyond excessive.

There will always be folks more skilled at understanding and using game mechanics to their advantage, but if pvp gear was less over the top it might make the fight seem a little more on an even playing field.
 

MalagAste

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The most fun I ever had in PvP was pre-AOS... when gear had maybe 2 or 3 variants and had minimal impact on the outcome of a fight. Aside from the cheating, I think people would feel more prone to PvP if it wasn't quite so hard (and expensive) to have a competitive suit. When you have folks running hybrid templates with virtually every mod for both mages and dexxers maxxed out and adding in 80+ skill points, we have reach the point beyond excessive.

There will always be folks more skilled at understanding and using game mechanics to their advantage, but if pvp gear was less over the top it might make the fight seem a little more on an even playing field.
That was back when fighting a dragon was like a major battle... I miss those days. Pre-AOS was wonderful.. now we are in full powercreep mode... and there is no stopping it... they should have fired anyone who suggested itemization like that.

I wish we could go back there... but there is no going back now.
 

Captn Norrington

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I used to pvp a lot before Age of Shadows was released, and tried to start doing it again 2 or 3 years ago as well. I was decent at it still and could have continued, but the main things that killed all the fun for me were:

Everyone uses cheats, and I choose not to. I was still able to kill those using cheats about 20% of the time just by lucky shots and good timing, but I noticed there is no longer much legitimate skill in modern pvp. The competition these days is who can program a better script, not who can build and use the best character. Winning with lucky shots wasn't fun to me, anyone can get lucky a few times, the fun of pvp was getting to the point where you can win most of the time purely based on your own skill level.

There is no friendliness in pvp anymore. Trashtalking has always existed of course, but in the old days everyone knew it was just light-hearted randomness and everyone went back to being civilized afterwards. These days from the minute two people see each other the flood of insults and hate speech begins and does not end until someone logs out. There is no more "oh hey good fight man that was fun!" instead it's turned into "you suck, I hate you, jump off a building, choke on a slice of pizza and die you (insert personal attack of the day here)" etc.

The goal of pvp no longer seems to be the excitement of fighting. Instead it is now a competition to see who can make the other person sad or angry first, by any means necessary. It doesn't always end when one person logs out either, if someone rage logs, their enemy will sometimes log into the voice chat room they know the person is in just to continue insulting them. That does not create a fun atmosphere, it just makes the whole pvp community look toxic.
 

Cetric

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I used to pvp a lot before Age of Shadows was released, and tried to start doing it again 2 or 3 years ago as well. I was decent at it still and could have continued, but the main things that killed all the fun for me were:

Everyone uses cheats, and I choose not to. I was still able to kill those using cheats about 20% of the time just by lucky shots and good timing, but I noticed there is no longer much legitimate skill in modern pvp. The competition these days is who can program a better script, not who can build and use the best character. Winning with lucky shots wasn't fun to me, anyone can get lucky a few times, the fun of pvp was getting to the point where you can win most of the time purely based on your own skill level.

There is no friendliness in pvp anymore. Trashtalking has always existed of course, but in the old days everyone knew it was just light-hearted randomness and everyone went back to being civilized afterwards. These days from the minute two people see each other the flood of insults and hate speech begins and does not end until someone logs out. There is no more "oh hey good fight man that was fun!" instead it's turned into "you suck, I hate you, jump off a building, choke on a slice of pizza and die you (insert personal attack of the day here)" etc.

The goal of pvp no longer seems to be the excitement of fighting. Instead it is now a competition to see who can make the other person sad or angry first, by any means necessary. It doesn't always end when one person logs out either, if someone rage logs, their enemy will sometimes log into the voice chat room they know the person is in just to continue insulting them. That does not create a fun atmosphere, it just makes the whole pvp community look toxic.
Google the Wikipedia page for "griefing". You won't be disappointed. I laughed when I ran across it.
 
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