Vas Rel Sanct - Church in UO

[Cyrah]

Some of you are treading on very thin ice, but you just keep on having fun.

 

[Vyal]

Is it the thought that counts?

 

[UOKaiser]

I have seen it all now.

It was about a week or two ago when I was trudging along on Atlantic, taking the moongate to Luna to check the latest on dyes for a new robe I had acquired when I stumbled upon a rune. Not an unusual thing, typically large vendors will use this method to advertise, merchants trying to market for off-Luna wares at discount prices. But this rune said something that caught my eye.

“Sunday Church Service - 7:00 p.m. EST, come one, come all!”

No way. Being a curious type, I hit the rune. It was coincidentally about 2 minutes after 7. I encountered two structures built like churches, one was filled to the brim with players. I dismounted my ethereal horse and walked in, finding just one empty bench left in the building. At the front was a woman dressed in white and red, giving a sermon. A Christian sermon. The topic was forgiveness and patience. An ankh punctuated the altar, comprised of white marble with a Fountain of Life (I assume for blessings and holy water). A cross formed of goza mats was emblazoned on the floor of the building, and I realized that the stone on the front of the structure also was in the form of a giant stained glass cross.

I couldn’t help but sit through the sermon. I kept looking at the congregation. Kellen, Grandmaster Mage. CREE DAL, Foe of the Abyss. Shawn, Legendary Tamer with the giant half-dog/half-dragon creature parked outside. The contrast seemed dizzying. Here there was a female pastor espousing the virtues of non-denominational Christian faith in, of all places, Sosaria. West of Trinsic near the Bog of Desolation to be precise.

I felt awkward to be wearing a wizard hat. My spellbook has a gigantic pentagram right on the front. I had just re-trained Necromancy, and I think my title was showing up as “The Ignoble GreyPawn, Elder Necromancer”. I did however thank my lucky stars that I had recently purchased scrolls and had an odd 4,000 or so in loose gold in my pack - tithes should the social pressure mount and the need arise.

Eventually the sermon ended and I left, beating a hasty retreat to my guild’s headquarters. Since that time, I expected to see no more of them, a fluke, fly-by-night and hardly permanent. Instead they have expanded and now conduct midnight sermons on Saturday, as well as a normal service on Sunday.

What does this mean? Ultimately, it means that emergent behavior is not limited to direct expressions of in-game ingeniousness. It means that human experience is pervasive. It means that in the wildest of all imaginations, we are likely going to be witness to what happens when one of the largest world religions finds itself in a fictional universe that has its own set of religions and morality. Can Christianity resolve Virtues and Principles with Beatitudes and Fruits of the Spirit? Is the Avatar going to end up a symbol for Christ, or vice-versa?

As it stands, the Church of UO is a thing, functional, extant and as far as I can tell not going to go away anytime soon. It is wholly maintained within the game, offering services to users who would otherwise not even consider attending church locally. That it exists, and how it got there does make me think of community in new ways, and certainly demonstrates a new paradigm.

I caught up with the pastor and interviewed her a bit, just to pick her brain on what the deal was. What made you decide to start a church in UO? “God led me to it.” What tenets do you follow? “Non-denominational. Come as you are, be as you are. No judgment, just the word of God.” As it turns out, her son has played UO for almost 12 years, and she is an active member of the music ministry in “real life”. I couldn’t help stiffle a laugh later, taking a tour through the church, noticing in the private quarters an arcane circle in bright blue plastered upon the floor. Appropriate decor is probably difficult to come by for the (unofficial) Sosarian non-denominational offshoot of the Assemblies of God. I neglected to ask whether banksitting would be considered a sin, and whether or not there is an active outreach program to minister to the reds of Felucca.

Praise the lord and pass the reagents?

She being doing it for years. She's a good friend and member of my alliance. Shes dedicated to it. Many people attend her sermons. I sneak in once in a while with a derelic character so she won't recognize me Im always aprehensive with religion.

 

[UOKaiser]

Lets not all forget we have vampire-orcs-paladians-necromancers-etc roleplayers who speak and act like there characters.This is a non isuue more people should attend one of her services if not for religion just for the fun of it. But be respectful theres enough of immature people in uo already.

 

[Jaimes]

If they aren't hurting anyone, let them be.

Quoted for truth. Leave them be, people.

 

[Masuri]

This kinda stuff is all over Lake Austin. Large portions of Luna (and a few houses elsewhere, notably Tel Mur) are dominated by one particular religious group, crosses everywhere, proselytizing in the bank, the works, with at various occasions in the past, weekly prayer meetings open to all. It's obnoxious to deal with, both in terms of dealing with an overabundance of preachy people on a teeny tiny shard, as well as having your Ultima immersions ruined by god this and Jesus that and crosses everywhere. I spent a good hour one evening while one of their leaders tried to persuade me into conversion (heh), as I took notes for an article I never got around to writing. I have only petitioned on them once, when they had set up comm crystals and pack mules to consta-spam every corner of Luna about their meeting and how we could all be "saved". But frankly I wish they'd have a bit of decency and put it back in their pants altogether. It's rude and insensitive to everyone else around them, and it's bad RP to boot.

It's possibly also worth pointing out that it wouldn't fly in the vast majority of games, for pretty obvious reasons, so I'm still puzzled that EA lets it go on. I am equally unimpressed with the shushings going on in this thread. Why is it OK for them to do it, but we can't object equally loudly? Talk about a double-standard.

I'm willing to bet that if this orginazation was Muslim, or Buddahs, or anything other then Christian, there would be alot less fuss about it.

I think you mean Buddhist. And I realize this is just typical no-I'm-the-victim-here stuff that the majority religion likes to pull, but let's be honest here. If a group of Muslims took over Luna, began the call to prayer in the bank five times daily, petitioned for the removal of non-Haram animals like piggies and alcohol from the game, named their vendors after Muslim mystics, painted their rooftops with religious symbols (anathema to them of course), donned hijab even for RP purposes, insisted that the nice lady wearing that true black apron and nothing else cover herself up, tried to convert kids on Britain's streets, gave lectures about how Jesus wasn't the son of god -- yes, Virginia, people would fuss, probably first and foremost, the Christians. I'm equally certain that if someone tried to hold a freethinkers or atheist or skeptics meeting to discuss any of these things or the way they affect the game, it would be crashed by people so "devout" they don't even attend a church, temple, or masjid, ingame or out.

And this is precisely why none of it belongs in a game, because EA really, really doesn't want to be policing that.

 

[christy1221]

I think you mean Buddhist. And I realize this is just typical no-I'm-the-victim-here stuff that the majority religion likes to pull, but let's be honest here. If a group of Muslims took over Luna, began the call to prayer in the bank five times daily, petitioned for the removal of non-Haram animals like piggies and alcohol from the game, named their vendors after Muslim mystics, painted their rooftops with religious symbols (anathema to them of course), donned hijab even for RP purposes, insisted that the nice lady wearing that true black apron and nothing else cover herself up, tried to convert kids on Britain's streets, gave lectures about how Jesus wasn't the son of god -- yes, Virginia, people would fuss, probably first and foremost, the Christians. I'm equally certain that if someone tried to hold a freethinkers or atheist or skeptics meeting to discuss any of these things or the way they affect the game, it would be crashed by people so "devout" they don't even attend a church, temple, or masjid, ingame or out.

And this is precisely why none of it belongs in a game, because EA really, really doesn't want to be policing that.

These people aren't doing that. They are laying down runes but that's it. I say if any religion or non religion wants to do the same thing as long as it's done at there own house and not at the bank I see nothing wrong with it.

Not every christian trys to shove it down other peoples throat. In my opinion the fastest way to turn someone off from religion is to try to pressure them into it.

 

[Siteswap]

This kinda stuff is all over Lake Austin. Large portions of Luna (and a few houses elsewhere, notably Tel Mur) are dominated by one particular religious group, crosses everywhere, proselytizing in the bank, the works, with at various occasions in the past, weekly prayer meetings open to all. It's obnoxious to deal with, both in terms of dealing with an overabundance of preachy people on a teeny tiny shard, as well as having your Ultima immersions ruined by god this and Jesus that and crosses everywhere. I spent a good hour one evening while one of their leaders tried to persuade me into conversion (heh), as I took notes for an article I never got around to writing. I have only petitioned on them once, when they had set up comm crystals and pack mules to consta-spam every corner of Luna about their meeting and how we could all be "saved". But frankly I wish they'd have a bit of decency and put it back in their pants altogether. It's rude and insensitive to everyone else around them, and it's bad RP to boot.

It's possibly also worth pointing out that it wouldn't fly in the vast majority of games, for pretty obvious reasons, so I'm still puzzled that EA lets it go on. I am equally unimpressed with the shushings going on in this thread. Why is it OK for them to do it, but we can't object equally loudly? Talk about a double-standard.



I think you mean Buddhist. And I realize this is just typical no-I'm-the-victim-here stuff that the majority religion likes to pull, but let's be honest here. If a group of Muslims took over Luna, began the call to prayer in the bank five times daily, petitioned for the removal of non-Haram animals like piggies and alcohol from the game, named their vendors after Muslim mystics, painted their rooftops with religious symbols (anathema to them of course), donned hijab even for RP purposes, insisted that the nice lady wearing that true black apron and nothing else cover herself up, tried to convert kids on Britain's streets, gave lectures about how Jesus wasn't the son of god -- yes, Virginia, people would fuss, probably first and foremost, the Christians. I'm equally certain that if someone tried to hold a freethinkers or atheist or skeptics meeting to discuss any of these things or the way they affect the game, it would be crashed by people so "devout" they don't even attend a church, temple, or masjid, ingame or out.

And this is precisely why none of it belongs in a game, because EA really, really doesn't want to be policing that.

Exactly. Well said.

 

[Tamburlaine]

Astrel, Whats with the negativity in all your comments and threads? Is it just your attempt to troll?

One of the best things about UO just like RL is if its not your cup of tea just avoid it. Their not cramming it down your throat.

You derailed a thread about how UO provides infinate possibilites and twisted it to relegious debate.

 

[Viper09]

Some of you are treading on very thin ice, but you just keep on having fun.

Really? Care to elaborate? lol

 

[Bara]

Cool.

It really shows how much of a true sandbox game Ultima is.

 

[Uvtha]

You can always grief them if you dont like it. Anyways religious groups thrived on persecution, so its win-win!

 

[Ailish]

...

As long as they are not actively bothering you to attend while you're out playing, they aren;t bothering anything or anyone.

That is the problem. I don't know about other shards, but on Napa every Tuesday night there are pack llamas with communication crystals in them parked all over Luna spouting the sermons. The "pastor" says you can put them on ignore, but my ignore feature seems to be broken, and he uses new llamas every week, so as to bypass everyone's ignore anyway (sounds like harassment, to me, but get a GM to respond to this touchy subject!)

I don't mind that there is a church - tho I find the design of the one on Napa to be somewhat tacky and nowhere near as good as the chapel that was there before - but I do mind having the sermons crammed down my throat every Tuesday. Gotten to the point that I just don't play on Tuesdays in case I accidentally forget and go to Luna.

 

[christy1221]

That is the problem. I don't know about other shards, but on Napa every Tuesday night there are pack llamas with communication crystals in them parked all over Luna spouting the sermons. The "pastor" says you can put them on ignore, but my ignore feature seems to be broken, and he uses new llamas every week, so as to bypass everyone's ignore anyway (sounds like harassment, to me, but get a GM to respond to this touchy subject!)

I don't mind that there is a church - tho I find the design of the one on Napa to be somewhat tacky and nowhere near as good as the chapel that was there before - but I do mind having the sermons crammed down my throat every Tuesday. Gotten to the point that I just don't play on Tuesdays in case I accidentally forget and go to Luna.

That shouldn't be allowed. Runes should be as far as it goes at banks.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Yeah, see that's crossing the line and should be paged upon. That's what I mean in the difference between them having a sermon in a private location while inviting people to join and pushing it out into public areas of the game.

 

[WarderDragon]

But frankly I wish they'd have a bit of decency and put it back in their pants altogether. It's rude and insensitive to everyone else around them, and it's bad RP to boot.

Religion and Roleplay are two completely different things.

What I see these people doing is congregating together based on their real-world religious beliefs. This isn't roleplay to them. This isn't fiction to them either. They are merely forming a community based on a common real-world interest. On the other hand, roleplay is the creation of a fictional personae completely separate from your real-world identity; an individual that is born, lives, and dies within the world of Sosaria.

While roleplayed characters might have religious beliefs (Philosophy of the Virtues, Armageddon, The Holy Light), practicing those real-world religious beliefs in-game doesn't make them roleplayers.

It's possibly also worth pointing out that it wouldn't fly in the vast majority of games, for pretty obvious reasons, so I'm still puzzled that EA lets it go on.

I've seen all kinds of religious groups emerge within various gameworlds. Christianity and Wiccanism on Ultima Online. Alot more variety in some of the more populated games like World of Warcraft.

If you don't like them, ignore them. They can't force you to do anything you don't want to. I used to think of Ultima Online, before the advent of social networking sites, as a place family members and friends could congregate and stay in touch. Why not a religious group?

 

[Fluffi]

And this is precisely why none of it belongs in a game, because EA really, really doesn't want to be policing that.

Exactly.

I preaching of ANY real-life religious opinion is acceptable in UO, then the preaching of ALL real-life religious opinion should be acceptable in UO.

How long do you think I could get away with espousing "The curse of Ham", or some of the more bizarre interpretations of passages from the Song Of Songs?

And its maybe a topic for the OT No Hold Barred

I think that's a damned-good idea.

There are plenty of posters in that forum who would be only too eager to debate this matter at length.

 

[It Lives]

In my personal opinion It is no different than some zerg guild. Watch your back if you cross their path.


Just my personal opinion.

 

[hen]

I wonder if I could build a replica of the Potala on an 18x18 plot?

 

[siyeng0]

Notes on Siyeng0: I come from a mixed Catholic-Jewish family, both sides lapsed and secular as all hell (no pun intended [and it really wouldn't work otherwise]), full of atheists and agnostics. Because of my religiously lackadaisical upbringing, I have only a vague sense of either a Jewish or Catholic identity, and consider myself neutral. But I'm still sensitive about preaching because I feel that people have the right to practice any religion they choose, free from judgement by others. That's where I'm coming from. (This will be examinable at the end of term.)

A while back, there was a church on several shards that would place llamas in Luna and other major population centres with communication crystals in their packs, so that people who wanted to bank in Luna had no choice but to listen to the sermon. This I was unreservedly annoyed over. Practicing one's faith is one thing, but actively proselytising is quite another. Because of the escapist nature of UO, I argue that the people in question had no right to force their opinions onto other players like that. This is a multinational game, and players of every race and creed are welcome - therefore, the public sphere should be kept free of religion and politics.

However. This establishment is not in the public sphere. Apart from the advertising, it sounds like an unobtrusive personal event. Anybody is free to come, but nobody has to. Private worship should not be a problem - worshipping amongst friends, doing it by yourselves and for yourselves, without forcing anybody else to conform to your beliefs, is religion at its best. Yes, it's unfaithful to the Ultima universe, but so are neon artefacts, LRC suits and talking about your computer problems while other people are trying to roleplay. Some - probably most - players don't care about being faithful to the Ultima-ness of UO, and that's fine; it's a game first and foremost, and nobody should be blamed for playing it as a game rather than a story. It's also a community and a way to meet people, and that's where the church comes in.

It's a sandbox. People are free to use it as they will. If these players are not harming anybody else with their church, I say let them have it. Keeping it quiet and private is a courtesy on their part to the wider community, and they deserve to have that courtesy repaid - if you agree with their beliefs, attend their service; if you don't, leave them in peace.

 

[GarthGrey]

I used to believe in a higher power, until last night when I saw the mini series "The Atom" on the Science Channel...there are a trillion/trillion/trillion/trillion/trillion (a 1 and 70 0's) atoms in the universe.

 

[Petra Fyde]

This discussion is closed

 

[Magdalene]

This is a very interesting discussion, but could we please have it at OT-NHB or at UHall OT (please note the relevant RoC differences between the two)?

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

First off, on Lake Austin, contrary to what was said, the Church that was railed on, has never done anything even remotely like was reported.

My encounters with them have never had any form of religious tones.

So, when I congregate with my family to play UO we are apparently, according to some, in violation of almost every single rule in the ToS. Yeah right.

You just got to love these people saying that these Churches are crossing a line by bringing Reality into UO. THESE SAME PEOPLE SAY THAT THERE IS NO RECALL/GATE ETC IN REALITY SO SHOULD NOT BE IN UO.

In short, when it suits their purpose, then Reality should NOT BE ALLOWED IN UO, when it doesn't then OF COURSE REALITY SHOULD BE ALLOWED IN UO.

So a Real Life Church has 30 young adults that just so happen to like playing UO. They just so happen to have a commonality with each other through personal contact at a common church.

And you want to dictate that they can NOT EXPRESS THAT COMMONALITY amongst themselves.

You go after these innocent people and cease to think about REAL PROBLEMS IN UO.

In the Bad Old Days of the Original Publish of UO, I am out and aboot looking at things and in a very out of the way place on Fire Island is a 8x8 house with a House Sign "Child Pornography Sold Here", I can only imagine all the outraged people would accept that as quite legitimate and enterprising. I did two things, first I contacted the FBI and second I let DD know that I had and that it existed.

It is truly amazing how limited you are in your thinking of how ANY MMORPG is used. Churches are the absolute least of your worries.

 

[hen]

Lol at this getting moved.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Lol at this getting moved.

Actually, in my opinion, a large percentage of UHall threads need to be moved to Rants or Here.

 

[The Fallout]

So you condone murder and theft in UO but religion, oh my goodness, how terrible!

.....actually I thought all three were the same.....

 

[GreySteele]

This kinda stuff is all over Lake Austin. Large portions of Luna (and a few houses elsewhere, notably Tel Mur) are dominated by one particular religious group, crosses everywhere, proselytizing in the bank, the works, with at various occasions in the past, weekly prayer meetings open to all. It's obnoxious to deal with, both in terms of dealing with an overabundance of preachy people on a teeny tiny shard, as well as having your Ultima immersions ruined by god this and Jesus that and crosses everywhere. I spent a good hour one evening while one of their leaders tried to persuade me into conversion (heh), as I took notes for an article I never got around to writing. I have only petitioned on them once, when they had set up comm crystals and pack mules to consta-spam every corner of Luna about their meeting and how we could all be "saved". But frankly I wish they'd have a bit of decency and put it back in their pants altogether. It's rude and insensitive to everyone else around them, and it's bad RP to boot.

It's possibly also worth pointing out that it wouldn't fly in the vast majority of games, for pretty obvious reasons, so I'm still puzzled that EA lets it go on. I am equally unimpressed with the shushings going on in this thread. Why is it OK for them to do it, but we can't object equally loudly? Talk about a double-standard.

I think you mean Buddhist. And I realize this is just typical no-I'm-the-victim-here stuff that the majority religion likes to pull, but let's be honest here. If a group of Muslims took over Luna, began the call to prayer in the bank five times daily, petitioned for the removal of non-Haram animals like piggies and alcohol from the game, named their vendors after Muslim mystics, painted their rooftops with religious symbols (anathema to them of course), donned hijab even for RP purposes, insisted that the nice lady wearing that true black apron and nothing else cover herself up, tried to convert kids on Britain's streets, gave lectures about how Jesus wasn't the son of god -- yes, Virginia, people would fuss, probably first and foremost, the Christians. I'm equally certain that if someone tried to hold a freethinkers or atheist or skeptics meeting to discuss any of these things or the way they affect the game, it would be crashed by people so "devout" they don't even attend a church, temple, or masjid, ingame or out.

And this is precisely why none of it belongs in a game, because EA really, really doesn't want to be policing that.

Regarding the CoC guild, while most of their members are incredibly nice this does not justify their actions in the game. If you stroll through Luna, you will see three buildings in one corner with crosses on top of their buildings, including the one that is the "church". Inside this building they have built a cross and used the statue maker to have a naked Jesus on that cross.

In Ter Mur, there are now at least three buildings that have crosses on top of houses, and even a parrot called "Jesus is Lord".

They are even planning on introducing a full copy of the Bible into the game by using somewhere around 300 made books. That in itself is an incredible task, and extremely time consuming. Which leads to the question, where does real life end, and fantasy/role playing begin in this game?

Personally, I do find this offensive as if I wanted to go to church, then I would, in real life. While each individual has the First Amendment right to religion, this however, is not a publicly paid game, it is a private game, and as such, that First Amendment right does not have to apply.

While I do not have to attend their church, I still deal with the "effects" of their presence by viewing crosses througout the land (Luna and Ter Mur are not the only locations) of real life in a fantasy game. Tell me, if I decided to put say an upside down star (Satanism) or say a moon with a star on top of a house (Islam), and started a church, or started a guild specifically for atheists would this be as accepted?

Flame me if you wish however, this is my opinion and I am entitled to it and it leads to the question, again, is this a role playing game/fantasy game, or a real life game? While I think the CoC has the right to exist, I as a player, should not see their effects in the game (i.e. crosses on top of houses).

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Well do you play a Paladin?

I mean it is on the UO web site as a character style is it not?

They did put in an entire Magic system to support it did they not?

Surprised that it does NOT offend your senses. Why are you not ranting to have Chivalry and Paladins removed from UO or at the very least renamed .... perhaps YOU want to suggest a RELIGIOUS NAME. Perhaps Chivarly becomes AthiestPower, Paladin becomes AthiestWarrior.

You might want to get a clue about religion. It is the BELIEF in something as in I Believe in a Being vs I DO NOT Believe in a being.

It is all the same thing, it is all just a system of beliefs.

Here just for you.

The paladins, sometimes known as the Twelve Peers, were the foremost warriors of Charlemagne's court, according to the literary cycle known as the Matter of France.

They first appear in the early chansons de geste such as The Song of Roland, where they (Paladins) represent Christian martial valor against the Saracen hordes.

The paladins and their associated exploits are largely later fictional inventions, with some basis on historical Frankish retainers of the 8th century and events such as the Battle of Roncevaux Pass and the confrontation of the Frankish Empire with Umayyad Al-Andalus in the Marca Hispanica.

 

[GreySteele]

Well do you play a Paladin?

I mean it is on the UO web site as a character style is it not?

They did put in an entire Magic system to support it did they not?

Surprised that it does NOT offend your senses. Why are you not ranting to have Chivalry and Paladins removed from UO or at the very least renamed .... perhaps YOU want to suggest a RELIGIOUS NAME. Perhaps Chivarly becomes AthiestPower, Paladin becomes AthiestWarrior.

You might want to get a clue about religion. It is the BELIEF in something as in I Believe in a Being vs I DO NOT Believe in a being.

It is all the same thing, it is all just a system of beliefs.

Here just for you.

The paladins, sometimes known as the Twelve Peers, were the foremost warriors of Charlemagne's court, according to the literary cycle known as the Matter of France.

They first appear in the early chansons de geste such as The Song of Roland, where they (Paladins) represent Christian martial valor against the Saracen hordes.

The paladins and their associated exploits are largely later fictional inventions, with some basis on historical Frankish retainers of the 8th century and events such as the Battle of Roncevaux Pass and the confrontation of the Frankish Empire with Umayyad Al-Andalus in the Marca Hispanica.

Easy, real life (religion) vs playing paladin/chiv (role playing). What my religious beliefs are do not effect the way I play my character. For if my religious beliefs did incorporate into the game, then I would not have a "red" character, now would I? I do not have to be a real-life Christian to play a paladin, and I do not have to be a real-life murder to play a "red". And in the spells of a Paladin/Chiv, I do not see the words such as God, Jesus, Savior or Bible. I see Latin. I also do not see a cross.

Sorry, your point is well.. pointless in the real life vs role playing issue and the involving of real-world religion in a fantasy/roleplaying game.

While I respect your beliefs, and believe you as well as everyone else has the right to believe what you want when it comes to religion, it has no place in this game. Trying to "save souls" in real life in a fantasy game has nothing to do with playing well.. a role playing game. Again, if I wanted to be "preached" to by seeing a cross, I would attend church, not play a game. You are mixing real life and a role playing game into one, and THAT is the problem.

 

[Tay M'real]

I guess for those who might be seeking more in life - this is a channel for which which those that are seeking to help them can do so.

Everyone is entitled to their own playstyle - they pay a subscription fee just as we all do. Some of us roleplay evil when we are generally good. Some of us portray Orcs or the Undead etc.. Some just enjoy the PvP and all the other goodies. If you want to preach the gospel - you're entitled...i don't have to hit the rune and attend. Same could be said for those who 'preach' the in-game version of the virtues..in the game world - it's all fiction.

 

[The Fallout]

Easy, real life (religion) vs playing paladin/chiv (role playing). What my religious beliefs are do not effect the way I play my character. For if my religious beliefs did incorporate into the game, then I would not have a "red" character, now would I? I do not have to be a real-life Christian to play a paladin, and I do not have to be a real-life murder to play a "red". And in the spells of a Paladin/Chiv, I do not see the words such as God, Jesus, Savior or Bible. I see Latin. I also do not see a cross.

Sorry, your point is well.. pointless in the real life vs role playing issue and the involving of real-world religion in a fantasy/roleplaying game.

While I respect your beliefs, and believe you as well as everyone else has the right to believe what you want when it comes to religion, it has no place in this game. Trying to "save souls" in real life in a fantasy game has nothing to do with playing well.. a role playing game. Again, if I wanted to be "preached" to by seeing a cross, I would attend church, not play a game. You are mixing real life and a role playing game into one, and THAT is the problem.

If people want to mix their fantasy sky god and his arrogant son into their UO time I could care less. As long as they are not running through Luna preaching let them be.

 

[Taylor]

Eh, as long as people are meeting in a private forums, I'm fine with any group/religion/affiliation/etc. meeting in-game. Freedom of association is important to me, even in a fantasy world - it lets me keep folks out of our guild who intend to threaten or harm my guild mates.

 

[Masuri]

First off, on Lake Austin, contrary to what was said, the Church that was railed on, has never done anything even remotely like was reported . . . My encounters with them have never had any form of religious tones . . .

How nice for your encounters, but that was not my personal experience with them, as I noted. Another poster above backed up several of my observations, and you're welcome to visit their locations in Luna and TM, or their sermons which appear to still occur every weekend.

In fact, since you claim they are innocent and kind people, let me elaborate to the contrary. The evening last year to which I referred, during which they used packies and crystals to spam the entire city and homes they did not own, I actually visited their little preachfest and asked several times, extremely politely, for them to put a stop to the spam. This is a required step before paging a GM for harassment, as you may know. They basically told me to sod off, that they didn't care they were upsetting everyone around them. I departed to initiate my page, and was surprised when someone followed me out and started asking ME questions. Turned out he was a 13-year-old kid who'd been duped into attending, and he wanted to know whether the things being said at the meeting were true. I was mortified that these people would prey on some clueless teenager, and that EA would put itself at risk for lawsuits to that end. (If you're curious, I told him to discuss it with his parents and hit the library. What I believe or don't believe is really irrelevant. If only certain others were so modest!)

So, no, no one is attempting to "dictate that they can NOT EXPRESS THAT COMMONALITY amongst themselves" -- I really don't care what they do amongst themselves. It's when they inflict it on the rest of us that I start to get annoyed, as well as amazed that EA lets it continue when most other games would have shut it down ages ago.

 

[The Fallout]

I was mortified that these people would prey on some clueless teenager, and that EA would put itself at risk for lawsuits to that end

EA would have no lawsuit on their hands. The game says T for teen and that game experience may change online, they covered their behinds.

 

[Taylor]

I was mortified that these people would prey on some clueless teenager, and that EA would put itself at risk for lawsuits to that end.

This might be a concern, if EA were incorporated in China. Luckily, folks over here have a bit more freedom.

 

[maroite]

So these people keep to themselves, and have a decent community, which probably has the same mixed pot of morale people as any other community, and people want to stop that?

Yeah... I say let them be and let them play the game as they want.

I also find it amusing that the ones to sling insults first are usually the ones who lack, or seem to lack faith, belittling the things that those who do have faith believe in.

 

[Mairut]

I was mortified that these people would prey on some clueless teenager, and that EA would put itself at risk for lawsuits to that end.

This might be a concern, if EA were incorporated in China. Luckily, folks over here have a bit more freedom.

They have the freedom to prey on clueless children? Yea, that usually works out for the better.

On a more serious note..

I don't know which you were speaking of... the church, the parents, or the child... when you were saying folks over here have a bit more freedom. So to cover all three:

Children do not have the same rights as adults. It's usually understood that children must respect the wishes of their parents, provided that it is a reasonable request...."no, you're not allowed to go to that party where I know there will be sex, drugs and alcohol..." etc.
An unreasonable request would be... oh I dont know... murdering someone.

The church? Well, yes they do seem to have a right to have a church in UO because EA has not said anything about it. (Am I complaining that there's a church in UO? Not necessarily, as my original post suggested I was worried about the implications.)
Do they have a right to preach to someone else's child?

Only if the child's parents allow it. If the parent isn't aware of it and finds out later and becomes mad that EA would allow someone to corrupt their children... thats when the lawsuit comes in. They would probably try to press charges against the people at the church first, and when that didn't work (I don't think it would, anyway) they would probably try to find other people whos children had been corrupted and then file a class-action lawsuit against EA.

Why wouldn't the parents be aware that their child was being subjected to something they didn't agree with, from the start...? Oh I know! Because the 13 year old kid was able to buy this game without their parents permission....because it's rated "Teen", and not "Mature":

I was mortified that these people would prey on some clueless teenager, and that EA would put itself at risk for lawsuits to that end

EA would have no lawsuit on their hands. The game says T for teen and that game experience may change online, they covered their behinds.

And please, don't anyone say that "well it doesn't matter that its rated T because you need a credit or debit card, and you have to be 18 to get those anyways"....

Guess what? Nope. Buy a prepaid gift card from Wallyworld, Wegman's, or some other place that sells them.

All you need is a couple dollars over the amount you're getting the card for(taxes and card activation)...and voila!.

That $65 you got from grandma from christmas? Buy a $50 card to get started. And then after that, all you need is money for game time. You can pay for 2mths game time with $27 for a $25 gift card.

You can be guaranteed that there a probably several hundred kids who get accounts on this game without their parents' permission.


EA probably didn't do themselves a favor when they changed the rating...all it did was change what kind of access children had to the game and as a result they opened themselves to a potential lawsuit...regardless of whether or not the T rating covers the fact that Teens are allowed to play without parents' permission or not.

 

[Taylor]

Personally, I'll always err on the side of liberty. That's why I say leave them alone.

 

[Mairut]

Personally, I'll always err on the side of liberty. That's why I say leave them alone.

Yes, I'm all for liberty to.
Having liberty also means you need to know when and how to use it.

Example: Do you have the liberty to walk down the sidewalk with your arms straight out to your left and right? Yes.

Now, do you have that same liberty, when doing the exact same thing, will obstruct someone else from the liberty of walking down the sidewalk?
Pretty sure the answer is "No".

I was mortified that these people would prey on some clueless teenager, and that EA would put itself at risk for lawsuits to that end.

This might be a concern, if EA were incorporated in China. Luckily, folks over here have a bit more freedom.

I didn't read into what Masuri said as having anything to do with the fact that the church itself was offensive, just that they shouldn't be trying to preach to someone else's child. Thus, why Masuri told the kid to go and talk to their parents about it.

The church, or the church that was on that shard a year ago, does not have the liberty to prey on children to advance their cause.

They do, it seems per EA, have the liberty to form a church within the game. Again, that isn't what happens to be in question here.
I haven't heard anyone say that having a church or any religious get-together in the game is offensive, wrong, or anything else along those lines.

What some people seem to be saying is that there is nothing wrong with it, and that nothing will come of it, so leave well enough alone.

Others are saying that there's is nothing wrong with it, the above group is correct, but there is a potential for something to come of it and what would be best is to avoid this problem.

Is it best to get rid of public religious and/or political get-togethers in game? I don't know. Is it the easiest? Yes. Would it circumvent potential problems? Certainly.


Anyway, seeing as how we haven't heard anything about them preaching to someone else's child recently...(if they were even aware that was what they were doing)then like my original post said, I hope nothing else comes of there being a church. (aside from people getting to know more people who have the same faith as them, of course)

 

[maroite]

Yes, I'm all for liberty to.
Having liberty also means you need to know when and how to use it.

Example: Do you have the liberty to walk down the sidewalk with your arms straight out to your left and right? Yes.

Now, do you have that same liberty, when doing the exact same thing, will obstruct someone else from the liberty of walking down the sidewalk?
Pretty sure the answer is "No".


I didn't read into what Masuri said as having anything to do with the fact that the church itself was offensive, just that they shouldn't be trying to preach to someone else's child. Thus, why Masuri told the kid to go and talk to their parents about it.

The church, or the church that was on that shard a year ago, does not have the liberty to prey on children to advance their cause.

They do, it seems per EA, have the liberty to form a church within the game. Again, that isn't what happens to be in question here.
I haven't heard anyone say that having a church or any religious get-together in the game is offensive, wrong, or anything else along those lines.

What some people seem to be saying is that there is nothing wrong with it, and that nothing will come of it, so leave well enough alone.

Others are saying that there's is nothing wrong with it, the above group is correct, but there is a potential for something to come of it and what would be best is to avoid this problem.

Is it best to get rid of public religious and/or political get-togethers in game? I don't know. Is it the easiest? Yes. Would it circumvent potential problems? Certainly.


Anyway, seeing as how we haven't heard anything about them preaching to someone else's child recently...(if they were even aware that was what they were doing)then like my original post said, I hope nothing else comes of there being a church. (aside from people getting to know more people who have the same faith as them, of course)

Just my opinion, but you're pathetic.

"prey on children", "advance their cause" ?? You make it sound like them sharing their faith and religion is some battle they're trying to win or that they're some kind of pedophile group. And you make broad, sweeping generalizations with what proof? Third party hearsay? lol

Its sad that not one person who frequents this church has logged onto these boards and said one thing demanding such incriminating remarks from you, yet you feel obligated to use such disrespectful and accusing language against them.

You're a sad sad person. rolleyes:

I suppose you want the abolishment of guilds as well? And alliances?

PS. Anytime people get together, regardless of there being religion or politics involved, there is a potential for something to happen. So what you're suggesting is we should all quit UO and play single player games? Stop using vague comments to try and "advance your cause." Its clear that you dislike religion, or perhaps just Christians/Christianity. Your volatile language proves that much.

 

[Taylor]

A Christian sermon. The topic was forgiveness and patience.

+

The church, or the church that was on that shard a year ago, does not have the liberty to prey on children to advance their cause.

=

Slippery Slope Fallacy

Slippery slope arguments falsely assume that one thing must lead to another. They begin by suggesting that if we do one thing then that will lead to another, and before we know it we’ll be doing something that we don’t want to do. They conclude that we therefore shouldn’t do the first thing. The problem with these arguments is that it is possible to do the first thing that they mention without going on to do the other things; restraint is possible.

 

[maroite]

+



=

Slippery Slope Fallacy

Slippery slope arguments falsely assume that one thing must lead to another. They begin by suggesting that if we do one thing then that will lead to another, and before we know it we’ll be doing something that we don’t want to do. They conclude that we therefore shouldn’t do the first thing. The problem with these arguments is that it is possible to do the first thing that they mention without going on to do the other things; restraint is possible.

NOOOOOOO! God help us all! Children learning FORGIVENESS and PATIENCE?!

What are they THINKING!?

lol

btw, you worded it perfectly. -.- Thank You.

 

[Mairut]

Just my opinion, but you're pathetic.

"prey on children", "advance their cause" ?? You make it sound like them sharing their faith and religion is some battle they're trying to win or that they're some kind of pedophile group. And you make broad, sweeping generalizations with what proof? Third party hearsay? lol

Its sad that not one person who frequents this church has logged onto these boards and said one thing demanding such incriminating remarks from you, yet you feel obligated to use such disrespectful and accusing language against them.

You're a sad sad person. rolleyes:

I suppose you want the abolishment of guilds as well? And alliances?

PS. Anytime people get together, regardless of there being religion or politics involved, there is a potential for something to happen. So what you're suggesting is we should all quit UO and play single player games? Stop using vague comments to try and "advance your cause." Its clear that you dislike religion, or perhaps just Christians/Christianity. Your volatile language proves that much.

What I meant from "advance their cause" was the fact that that anyone who preaches to anyone about anything is trying to advance some cause.

As far as "prey on children", I was simply trying to use the same wording that Masuri had been to help Syrus try to understand that what he had actually said was that the church was at liberty to preach to someone else's children.

I thought I had made myself clear on the fact that any group in UO isn't wrong, however, that there was a potential for something to happen especially when it comes to religion and politics.

..."yet you feel obligated to use such disrespectful and accusing language against them."
Hypocrisy at its finest.

Anyway, seeing as how we haven't heard anything about them preaching to someone else's child recently...(if they were even aware that was what they were doing)then like my original post said, I hope nothing else comes of there being a church. (aside from people getting to know more people who have the same faith as them, of course)

A Christian sermon. The topic was forgiveness and patience.

+

The church, or the church that was on that shard a year ago, does not have the liberty to prey on children to advance their cause.

=

Slippery Slope Fallacy

Slippery slope arguments falsely assume that one thing must lead to another. They begin by suggesting that if we do one thing then that will lead to another, and before we know it we’ll be doing something that we don’t want to do. They conclude that we therefore shouldn’t do the first thing. The problem with these arguments is that it is possible to do the first thing that they mention without going on to do the other things; restraint is possible.

Read what I said to Maorite above.

Yes, and as I keep saying over and over...I hope it doesn't turn into something.

Is it best to get rid of public religious and/or political get-togethers in game? I don't know.

Is it the easiest? Yes. Would it circumvent potential problems? Certainly.


Anyway, seeing as how we haven't heard anything about them preaching to someone else's child recently...(if they were even aware that was what they were doing)then like my original post said, I hope nothing else comes of there being a church. (aside from people getting to know more people who have the same faith as them, of course)

Simply because I said that it would be the easiest way to circumvent problems doesn't mean its whats right. I did say "I don't know".


Both of you need to stop attempting to read between the lines and learn how to understand what someone is trying to convey.
There was no reason for you to attack me in the way that you did, maroite, simply because I have a opinions differing from yours. I HOPE that I managed to explain to you what I meant; where you quoted me.

I'll even go so far as to apologize to the church when I said anything mean, hateful or incendiary, and that it absolutely was not my intention to be mean or try to portray you in a bad light.

Thank you, maroite, for pointing out to me how the things I said could be taken when seen in the wrong light.
Hopefully you'll learn something from this as well.

 

[Mairut]

NOOOOOOO! God help us all! Children learning FORGIVENESS and PATIENCE?!

What are they THINKING!?

lol

btw, you worded it perfectly. -.- Thank You.

Wow You've completely managed to misconstrue everything!!

Go flame somewhere else.

 

[The Fallout]

They have the freedom to prey on clueless children? Yea, that usually works out for the better.

On a more serious note..

I don't know which you were speaking of... the church, the parents, or the child... when you were saying folks over here have a bit more freedom. So to cover all three:

Children do not have the same rights as adults. It's usually understood that children must respect the wishes of their parents, provided that it is a reasonable request...."no, you're not allowed to go to that party where I know there will be sex, drugs and alcohol..." etc.
An unreasonable request would be... oh I dont know... murdering someone.

The church? Well, yes they do seem to have a right to have a church in UO because EA has not said anything about it. (Am I complaining that there's a church in UO? Not necessarily, as my original post suggested I was worried about the implications.)
Do they have a right to preach to someone else's child?

Only if the child's parents allow it. If the parent isn't aware of it and finds out later and becomes mad that EA would allow someone to corrupt their children... thats when the lawsuit comes in. They would probably try to press charges against the people at the church first, and when that didn't work (I don't think it would, anyway) they would probably try to find other people whos children had been corrupted and then file a class-action lawsuit against EA.

Why wouldn't the parents be aware that their child was being subjected to something they didn't agree with, from the start...? Oh I know! Because the 13 year old kid was able to buy this game without their parents permission....because it's rated "Teen", and not "Mature":



And please, don't anyone say that "well it doesn't matter that its rated T because you need a credit or debit card, and you have to be 18 to get those anyways"....

Guess what? Nope. Buy a prepaid gift card from Wallyworld, Wegman's, or some other place that sells them.

All you need is a couple dollars over the amount you're getting the card for(taxes and card activation)...and voila!.

That $65 you got from grandma from christmas? Buy a $50 card to get started. And then after that, all you need is money for game time. You can pay for 2mths game time with $27 for a $25 gift card.

You can be guaranteed that there a probably several hundred kids who get accounts on this game without their parents' permission.


EA probably didn't do themselves a favor when they changed the rating...all it did was change what kind of access children had to the game and as a result they opened themselves to a potential lawsuit...regardless of whether or not the T rating covers the fact that Teens are allowed to play without parents' permission or not.

You said the guy was thirteen meaning teen. You just put your foot in your mouth. Believe me, I think parents subjecting their child to religion is tantamount to child abuse, but who cares what these people do.

 

[WarderDragon]

I think everyone needs to grow a thicker skin.

You say you want escapism? Ultima has always had a variety of pseudo-religious overtones weaved throughout its storylines. The Virtues had their basis in Buddhism (Enlightenment), The Eightfold Path of Siddhartha Gautama, and the Eight Knightly Virtues of Medieval Lore. The Avatar was based on the Buddha (Spiritual Quest), and Jesus Christ (Twelve Companions, Sacrificial Overtones, Saduj is Judas spelled backwards). The Ankh is an Egyptian symbol of Immortality that was adopted by Coptic (North African) Christians in the first couple centuries of Church History. The Pentagram is a mystical symbol that has been used by hundreds of religions, everything from Judaism to LeVeyan Satanism, for a variety of purposes ranging from protection to the representation of the elements. The Great Earth Serpent was a Symbol of Immortality to some, Enlightenment in some Roman Mystery Cults, Male Fertility in Neolithic Cultures, and the Beast in Christian and Muslim faiths.

I could go on, and on, and on.

We have naked female demons that "drain a mans life force" (Semidar; and I think you can guess what I'm implying here). We have pentagrams with corpses stretched out upon them. We have implications of human sacrifice, murder, cannibalism, sexuality, demon worship.

And you're honestly worried about a teen being exposed to an idea you might not like? C'mon. What next? Teenagers are exposed to alot worse from the knuckleheads that infest this game than they are from a religious group spreading its message.

 

[Taylor]

WarderDragon for president!

 

[Mairut]

You said the guy was thirteen meaning teen. You just put your foot in your mouth. Believe me, I think parents subjecting their child to religion is tantamount to child abuse, but who cares what these people do.

Could you please explain to me how I put my foot in my mouth; because I seem to be missing something.

The fact that someone who is a teenager, including thirteen, is able to buy a game without their parents permission and then become exposed to some things that their parents might not want them exposed to, simply because they are old enough by EA standards...

And if you had read the entire thread, you would realize that:

I was mortified that these people would prey on some clueless teenager, and that EA would put itself at risk for lawsuits to that end.

This might be a concern, if EA were incorporated in China. Luckily, folks over here have a bit more freedom.

What you are accusing me of saying, isn't something I was original enough to come up with.

The only reason that I posted about that was because Syrus thought it ok...or something, as what he replied to Masuri was hardly understandable... that EA MAY POSSIBLY BE setting itself up for a lawsuit because some clueless parents MAY DECIDE to throw a fit that their children were learning something they didn't want them to.

Does it have ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING to do with the fact that a church can impart some knowledge to someone?

No. It doesn't. Thats not what I was talking about...if you had bothered to read all of my posts you might have gotten an inkling of that.

.....I wonder what would happen if someone else decided to come into the game to preach their religion...muslim, jewish, buddhist, pagan, etc....?

When that happens then there may be a problem.
Until we reach that point- and we will reach a point, because if one religion is aloud in the game, why not all others?- then we will have to see how it goes. I could be wrong about their being a problem, and everyone gets along and lives happily ever after.

If you look at history though, there has always consistently been a problem between people of religion (or those who don't have a religion, whatever the case may be) and people who are involved in politics.

I really, really, really, really don't want my reply to sound like "if one person has it, then everyone else has to" or "if one group can't have it then nobody else can" as far as religion goes...and then you get parents who are a bit touchy about what their kids hear and read.

I think it would be best just to keep religion and politics of this ilk out of the game, and avoid that (above paragraph) potential mess...yes, you read that correctly.. potential mess entirely.

If anyone can think of or has heard of scenarios where something like this turned out for the better, I would love to hear about it.

For the record, I don't personally have a problem with people coming into UO and talking/preaching about whatever they want, for the moment. I just don't want this to turn into a giant mess. The same thing has happened in people's places of work, gyms, schools, and with seemingly the same results everytime. I just hope all the nastiness can be avoided in UO.

^^^ post #24.

And it seems to me that when someone preaches to someone else's children about something that THAT CHILDS PARENTS MAY NOT agree with...then that does, indeed, have the potential to create a problem.


Now, does anyone else have anything constructive to say about what GreyPawn wrote about? I really dont see any reason to keep derailing this topic with what people seem to think I meant. Attacking me about what I said adds absolutely nothing to what could otherwise be a constructive discussion about what GreyPawn wrote, or about the implications of a church or any other religious or political group in UO.

 

[The Fallout]

The fact that someone who is a teenager, including thirteen, is able to buy a game without their parents permission and then become exposed to some things that their parents might not want them exposed to, simply because they are old enough by EA standards...

THE KID IS THIRTEEN. ULTIMA ONLINE IS RATED T FOR TEEN. HE CAN LEGALLY BUY IT WITHOUT HIS PARENTS PERMISSION. END OF STORY. IF THE PARENTS AREN'T INVOLVED IN HIS ACTIVITIES AND INTERESTS THAT IS THEIR PROBLEM NOT EA'S.

LIKE ALSO NOTED. ULTIMA ONLINE IS ALREADY INFLUENCED BY MANY DIFFERENT RELIGIOUS THINGS. YOU ARE CREATING A PROBLEM FROM NOTHING.