Update: Crystal Ball of Pet Summoning and PvP

[Al Thorin]

<blockquote><hr>

Most pvp tamers do not even play such traditional templates. They know how to maximise their abilities. My tamer controls pets well with just 115 taming, 110 lore and 80 vet. 80 vet is generally sufficient as my pets do not die 1 on 1. In a gank situation, my pets are likely to die even if I were to have 120 vet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure why honestly.
I mean, I don't play that temp either, cause it's a waste of skill points, but I'm still an old school tamer/mage.
Magery/Med/Eval/Wrestle/Taming/Lore/Vet
Not why there's arn't more, cause as far as I'm concerned, that style of template is far more powerfull than pretty much any other type of tamer template for PVP.
Dunno, maybe cause you actually have to be good to get away with it?

 

[WarUltima]

<blockquote><hr>

Not sure why honestly.
I mean, I don't play that temp either, cause it's a waste of skill points, but I'm still an old school tamer/mage.
Magery/Med/Eval/Wrestle/Taming/Lore/Vet
Not why there's arn't more, cause as far as I'm concerned, that style of template is far more powerfull than pretty much any other type of tamer template for PVP.
Dunno, maybe cause you actually have to be good to get away with it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I used that example so I can just copy that dudes mage bard template without changing too much stuff to show that the mage templates has some core skills and with 2 additional you can have a tamer/bard/necro ect ect mage template.

I think the reason why there are fewer "true" mage tamers is because it's actually harder to get a kill with a mage tamer than a stupid dismount animal form petball tamer. The mage tamer because they usually fight fair, dont dismount and theirs pets are often used as their supplimental damage source. These tamers dont usually and they dont have to use pet balls to get a kill. And they fight from a mount that means no super dragon for them. They are basically playing a pure mage with pets assisting them.

On the other hand, ninja stealth tamer can easily get their kills from hitting that summon pet macro. They dont have to do anything themselves other than get that dismount shot or bola in and click that summon all kill macro everytime their victim gains distance from their pet.

Basides for these cheesy tamers everything goes wrong they can just run away in mount speed while their greater dragon still trying to bite the victim's head off. Also you can't really kill an animal form tamer since you are on your feet running with a dragon who's capable of two hitting your ass... they can ALWAYS run away if stuff goes wrong and summon their pet back from 20 screens away.

A dismount ninja tamer would have to suck really hard to lose to anything other than another dismount ninja tamer.

Traditional tamer mages take skill to be good, because at very least they have to play their mage roll right. The roflcopter ninja tamers on the other hand dont have to put in too much effort to achieve the same result with little tricks here and there, an absusive way of using an ingame mechnism and a correctly recorded uoa macro.

 

[LAH Architect]

<blockquote><hr>

On the other hand, ninja stealth tamer can easily get their kills from hitting that summon pet macro. They dont have to do anything themselves other than get that dismount shot or bola in and click that summon all kill macro everytime their victim gains distance from their pet.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a misconception. You will be a lousy-easy-to-kill PvP stealth ninja tamer if you play like that. You need to play that template against competent reds to understand why theory and practical dun match.

If you do an experiment on a standing still victim , yes tremendous damage, but practical opponents dun stand there for you to test.

For an inscribe mage 1 vs 1 a dismount ninja stealth tamer, precasting teleport is highly effective. If you know your opponent does not have magic resist ... do I need to tell you what to do ? Smart mages precast teleport out of screen and bait the lousy dismount tamers to appear. Some use small spawn to hinder pets.

Unless the opposing PvPers are all crap.... or you using a red tamer vs blues. Most blues have terrible teamwork as they rely too much on guardzones.

Another minor point : you dun't need to be a stealth ninja dismount tamer to kill another ... because the ninja stealth tamer is already not mounted...

 

[WarUltima]

Yes good pvpers dont stand still and waiting to get swallowed by that greater dragon however, if you played your dismount ninja tamer correctly, a dismounted player is as good as a player just standing still...

A good ninja tamer shouldnt get killed ever unless he's not playing his right (assuming he doesnt suck at pvp completely). If EVERYTHING goes wrong he has the options to run in doggie form, to break LoS and hide or just smoke bomb and stealth away.

Any tamer worth any salt that utilize the summoning ball versus ANY players running on foot should win with little effort unless the victim has the ability to go back on mount, go into animal form or smoke bomb otherwise hes dead (assuming the tamer knows when to click that uoa macro).

As you said a mage precast teleport to get the stealth tamer out..... good idea but what's the point? the tamer can hide again if he survive over 5 second after he reveals himself. And if you can't survive for five(5) seconds out of stealth with a greater dragon on your side you shouldnt be pvping in fel anyways.

also, did they nerf trapped boxes already? if they havent I dont see why having zero resist skill have anything to do with survival. And if you are any decent pvper you are going to have one with all the necro mages running around in fel... So if I use precast teleport and got you out of stealth I have all five seconds to kill you while your greater dragon is chaining spells and throwing the new and improved dragon breathe at me......

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

It does not matter if you have 6 legendary tamers or more. I have 10 above GM tamers across shards but I do not use that to validate my feedback. I feel that you are too biased against PvP tamers and it's terrible to call them shameful. They have not cheated using illegal programs, but just have a playstyle different from yours. This does not warrant them to be nerfed till their playstyles (extension of tamer) gets canned. I have to say that your experience with PvP tamers is limited too since you feel shameful about them and don't explore further into the tactics to play them as well as against them.

There are many ways to fight against PvP tamers and they are all legit ways ! PvP tamers come in all favors, using diffferent pets, different tactics as well as different skill levels. There are pros and cons of using PvP Tamers, that is why you do not see the battlefields have a homogenous spread of just PvP tamers. They are effective and have a place currently in Fel PvP scene, which in turn make PvP bards counters and thievies (Siege) valuable too. This all makes Fel PvP more diverse and players have more choices rather than the plain old Mage vs Dexer.

Anti-tamer sentiments have been in UO for a long time. They were called twinks. So removing the PvP tamers will not get tamers any more respect. Respect is earned by individuals and not branded as a profession.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please, don't make sweeping judgements about me, I have zero issue with PvP tamers who actually fight, only the ones who think PvP constitutes stealth up, drop pets and velcro them with pet balls till opponent dies. I don't call that PvP, I call it a lame way to score a kill. I have seen tamers who can fight without pet balls and do it with great success. I have no issue with them, if I'm doing champs and harries, I'm using a tamer and I have no hesitation in PvPing with her. So to say I'm anti PvP tamer is a bit daft. I live in fel, so why on earth would I want to kill my own chances at PvP? That makes no sense at all.

<blockquote><hr>

I would suggest that you are the one on the stabilisers as they not only provide support but impose LIMITATIONS on how fast you can cycle and even go places (hinderance on narrow paths). High end content in PvM is intense and PvP is no walk in the park either. Enterprising and creative tamers have expended the playstyle of the tamers beyond PvM meatshields &amp; Trammy Twinks and that is exciting progress ! Their skill playing the taming profession is no lesser than yours and probably surpass as they continue to challenge the usual way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again you're making assumptions. I like to make journeys fast, I don't patiently meander through anything If I'm going deep into Ilsh, I have pet balls for every pet, I'd just take them out the bank, or take my mare by herself... I have no issue with that, but the changes proposed do not stop moderate usage in any way. Only the constant pulling pets back in PvM or PvP. I have no problem managing my pets in difficult situations, as I didn't before pet balls arrived.


Wenchy

 

[Guest]

since we making changes to the pet ball can we lower the weight of them to one stone each, I always assumed that 10 stones per was a nerf in it self.

 

[`Lynk]

What about relating the casting delay to how many follower slots the pet takes up?

With so many stealth archers nowadays I keep 2 bonded swampies in the stables on every one of my chars. If I get dmounted, I usually chug pots, use a healing wand, and teleport like crazy until I can petball a new swampy and remount.

I feel that this patch might affect peoples ability to escape from a dismount gank. I think that if the spell casting timer was directly related to follower slots, it would prevent people from abusing petballs with offense, but it wouldn't hinder the defense and escape tactic of the solo guerilla fighter.

 

[LAH Architect]

JCtheBuilder had a good idea to let the pet balls use 10 mana/control slot to summoun a pet.

Swamp Dragon = 10 mana
New Dragon = 50 mana

As the dreaded ninja stealth tamer does not have meditation usually, they will not be able to pull off repeated petballing of the new dragon.

From my time in Fel, I noticed that only the best non-tamer pvpers had 3 petballs, each one tied to a swamp dragon (2 in stables, 1 riding). They made good use of legit ingame systems to combat the dismount ganks. This small tip gave me the ability to differentiate between good and average pvpers.

I only highlighted this nerf to non-tamers after Leurocian made this first pass at changing petballs. I wanted to see how through he did his research. You can say I left this info out to check out his understanding of high end pvp. He is trying to give good service to complaining folks, but being hasty can be bad too. Also, none of the anti-stealth ninja tamer posters mentioned this point, which confirms to me that they could be doing more and learning better tactics.

As I say before, if the summoun timer remains on petballs, non-taming high-end pvpers are left only with the option to download Speeders to compete effectively. Of course the substantial existing percentage already running this enhancement don't care.

 

[Guest]

That's a nice step. It might be sufficient to fix the problems, but if not, I'm sure we'll hear the crying pretty quick!

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Hail and Well Met,

We want to thank everyone for giving us your input on the Crystal Ball of Pet Summoning and its current use in PvP. After assessing your feedback, we have decided that the following adjustments are needed:

* Pet summoning balls should unhide the summoner when attempting to summon her pet.
* Pet summoning balls should have a couple second casting animation with the chance to disrupt like other spellcasting.
* Pet summoning balls should have a reuse delay of 15 seconds.
* Pet summoning balls cannot be used while in animal form.

We feel these changes should balance the Crystal Ball of Pet Summoning in PvP while having minimal impact in PvM. QA is currently reviewing these changes internally. Once the changes pass internal review, they should appear on a public Test Center for an upcoming publish.

Once these changes are on Test Center, please be sure to send us your feedback on these changes.

Good gaming!

[/ QUOTE ]Want to tell me what possible difference this is going to make to people PvPing with a super dragon? None.

Thats what exasperated this problem and these changes do nothing whatsever.

Super dragon were introduced with (as usual) absolutely zero thought to PvP. They have been jumped upon by the gimp&amp;cheat-of-the-week guilds simply because they are stupidly over-powered.

They simply need to be removed from PvP and, as people have said they aren't that great for PvM, then they should just be untameable.

Stop trying to bandaid a poor idea.

 

[the 4th man]

I don't believe this. you guys'll nerf anything.....glad I don't pvp, full of whiners.

 

[Guest]

Let's test the changes before we start yelling for the removal of a pet?

I know tamers are not welcome in Fel (beyond easy targets) but at least test the restrictions before you scream for more nerfs. Even without this dragon, there is always going to be an issue between certain PvPers and tamers.

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Let's test the changes before we start yelling for the removal of a pet?

I know tamers are not welcome in Fel (beyond easy targets) but at least test the restrictions before you scream for more nerfs. Even without this dragon, there is always going to be an issue between certain PvPers and tamers.

Wenchy

[/ QUOTE ]You can't test this because there is nothing on test like real PvP, especially with people's regular gear against a trained super dragon.

The devs obviously didn't test this in PvP or even think about PvP so they should simply knock all tamed super dragons down to normal dragons. I mean, its not like PvM needed this either.

 

[Guest]

I realise test isn't a real proper testing ground, but at the same point, I don't really listen too hard to calls of remove this pet when it hasn't had proper testing with those changes. I like to see facts and real evidence before I'd call for a pet to be removed rather than just adjusted heh.

Even testing with a tamer who didn't spam pet balls would be a start, but a lot of what I've read so far is how people think these pets will be, maxed out, trained and generally gimped to the max. How many real tamers will have such great pets, or even choose to take them out? How will our current gimplate tamers really cope after the pet ball changes?

I have no issue at all if nerfs are needed once these beasts are tested thoroughly. But it's too early IMO to really say where the greater dragon fits into PvP or PvM.

Wenchy

 

[Al Thorin]

<blockquote><hr>

Super dragon were introduced with (as usual) absolutely zero thought to PvP. They have been jumped upon by the gimp&amp;cheat-of-the-week guilds simply because they are stupidly over-powered.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, from what I've seen of them, they are far more ballanced then Rune Beetles, and even other 'special' pets.

The main flaw with them was allowing them in without adressing the petball/ninja form issues that were pointed out to become issues from the moment the dragons were found on TC1.

Now, there are a few issue which should be looked at, slayer vulnerability for one, plus given time, maybe a little adjusting on the stats.

Overall, I don't think they will require any major overhaulds.

 

[John Galt]

If you have two different pet balls linked to the same pet can you summon it twice without waiting for the delay?

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

If you have two different pet balls linked to the same pet can you summon it twice without waiting for the delay?

[/ QUOTE ]

Without re-reading the first couple pages... I believe this was answered to something along the lines of ...

The timer is linked to the char, not the ball and not the pet, rendering multiple balls useless...

... that last part didn't sound right, in the wrong context...