Update: Crystal Ball of Pet Summoning and PvP

[Gildar]

<blockquote><hr>

Gildar, it's not 75 seconds for a pack of 5.

There's no delay BEFORE you trigger, it's AFTER.

So, it's at most SIXTY seconds (plus ball activation time if its separate from the 15 second timer), and that's if you summon in all the pets, which is only going to happen with non-ridable pets.

[/ QUOTE ]Sorry... 60-70 seconds, plus 15-17 seconds before you can re-summon any of them that have already ran away again during that time.
One minute is still too much time to get an entire pack to you, and there is no difference in PvP balance with getting 5 creatures to you in 10 seconds as opposed to one very powerful creature in 2.

I still have seen absolutely no reasons defending the timer being on the player as opposed to the pet. What does it provide other than annoying pack animal handlers?

 

[Gildar]

<blockquote><hr>

* Pet summoning balls should have a reuse delay of 15 seconds. <font color="blue">-This was Needed and if you have 5 Ossys like ive seen in other posts, I highly doubt your burning that many charges when you can simply log out a screen or so away to pull all your pets at once </font color=blue>

[/ QUOTE ]*really really hopes the developers fix this rediculous abuse in mechanics - pets shouldn't disappear until you timeout... or maybe have them disappear but re-appear where they were if they were within 1.5 screens, or in your stable if they were farther away, not immediately on top of you*

 

[LAH Architect]

Congrats, you just shut the door on legit PvPers that use the pet ball to summoun a mount after the 5 second dismount timer. The only alternative now is to crank up the Speeder Programs and outrun on foot all the dismounters.

There is no hope for smart legit solutions after being dismounted now.

None of the reds on my shard shall be riding any pets (swamp dragons, horse, beetle etc). They will all get dismounted and their mounts will be agroed and 100% will die. They will drag their ghosts all over till a kind tamer vet res them.

Your solution pleases the vocal people on Stratics and is the right way to maintain subscriptions but just to let you know, it came at a price to the legit people that try very hard to play fair and use their brains.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The fixes are good for Anti - stealth ninja tamers and it is indeed strong nerfs. The response to this is what I have said last week : they are already prepared and moved hiding and stealth to Necro | SS .

Dismount, Evil Omen, *insert necro spell and a big fat dragon on you is instant death now. In the real PvP field fights at champion spawn areas, tamer has become more powerful due to pet ball nerfs.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wenchkin, your fixation to push all the 'problems' to just the petball will get the new dragons nerfed. It makes perfect sense now to drop hide | stealth and lug around the most durable pet as the more fragile smaller pets cannot be called back easily using petballs. This means that any remaining PvP Tamers will drop the hide | stealth skillset and take other skillsets.

If you understand the concept of how bio-diversity irl help species survive, by closing the door on one species (stealth tamer), you effectively help limit the options and more nerfs will affect tamers as a result in long term. Maybe that's your real hidden agenda : to nerf the tamer profession ?

PvP Necro Dismount Tamers + New Dragon + Pet Ball Changes = next strongest gimp template.

The sad thing is I and a few other legit folks cannot think of a legit counter to such a combination. The only way is to nerf one pet : the new dragons rather than tweak necromancy. The other way : Get Speeders .

------------------------------------------------------------------

Once patch goes live, I think I got a fun way to piss off the red yew 'pvpers' . Stealth Archer Dismount and all red pets dead = win !

 

[Coranthe]

Jeremy - The game mechanics being modified here are a "special case" in themselves. You are attempting to alter how players use objects in the special case of summoning a pet for PvP purposes. The solution is 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'.

It is extremely obvious the Dev team has ONLY listened to the PvP crowd in this case. PvMers were COMPLETELY ignored. There is absolutely no sense in implementing ALL of these changes at once. You are rushing through too many changes at once just to fix one special case scenario.

Please reconsider the casting delay on ball usage. This is often the only means the PvMer has to 1) rescue a pet from extreme spawn or 2) get a pet to the action deep within a dungeon or high spawn area. Yes, there are many reasons that cause those 2 situations that need to be looked at, but why penalize us now when you are not prepared to look into them.

 

[WarUltima]

All the negativities...
When I started to play I can have 5+ dragons (no WW back then) following me running around with them all unbonded (no pet bonding). And they dont recall with me, and I couldnt save them by logging out of my character after I got my ass handed to an ancient wyrm. Lastly, each stable has a limited slots I have to gate around town to find a stable that wasnt full in order to stable mt pets.

Now we have plenty of easy modes, given that you cant have 10 dragons with you at the sametime but with pet bonding, hugeazz pet skill loss per death (lol), pet recalling, pet auto stable, ect ect.

The game has gotten much much easier, and player friendly. The 15 second resummon isnt that big of a deal. Inconveience yes, game stopping? LoL.

You usually hunt for at least two hour, for 1 minute summoning time takes what? not even 1% of the time you are out hunting. Besides when you said you no want ur pettie die coz it loses a huge amount of all 0.1 of their skill points, there werent "pet rezzing" back when UO was "the game" and your pets will lose 100% of the skill points then go poof everytime they die. Pet AI was as stupid as nowdays btw. At least you still got pet auto stable "feature" where you can run away and log out to prevent your pet from all it 0.1 point of skill.

Tho I do not use my tamer in pvp, the petball change will hurt me greatly. I am usually the lone wolf on my main pvp character and I refuse to live in trammel. I almost get dismount ganked everyday and instant ride summon is my only mean of survival. But hey, everyone dies from time to time. At least this change will get rid of many "hardcore" pvp tamer who kills people with 1 UOA macro, then brag about how good they can pvp.

 

[WarUltima]

I wrote a hardcore pvp tamer guide which I will repost here for all the hardcore pvp tamers. Use it before petballs get changed.


Serious hardcore PvP tamer 101. (Sorry fellow professional hardcore pvp tamers I am letting the secrets out)
1. Bond a super dragon and link it to a pet ball.
2. Have an Hxbow or Bola ready.
3. Have enough ninjitsu for mount speed form.
4. Make an UOA macro X as the following: Click "record", double click pet ball, all kill, target an item, click "stop" Now on UOA screen insert 250 pause time after "Use Item" and then change "Target" to "Last Target". Make a hotkey "Y" to play Macro X.
5. Find a victim.
6. Dismount -&gt; Dismount Shot or Bola to bola victim
7. Go into a running form and stick to the victim now running on his feet. Click Y, if victim survives first dragon assult and is gaining distance from your dragon, run to melee range again and click Y, Repeat until victim is dropped dead and an automated gold transfer message is shown on your screen.

This is the easiest way of becoming a highly skilled PvPer. There are many variations to it but you get the main idea.

The best part is after you killed your victim you can run up to his ghost and say "Owned Noob", "Learn2PvP", "Damn! you are terrible, I owned you with 1 key"

 

[Guest]

These changes do not solve the issue of Greater Dragon tamers running around in animal form at mounted speed. Personally, I would have like to seen a mana cost for summoning (not affected by lower mana cost). Something like 10 mana for every follower slot the pet takes. A greater dragon would cost 50 mana every summon.

 

[LAH Architect]

Dang ... that's a very good idea.

You should have posted it long ago !

 

[Gildar]

<blockquote><hr>

The game has gotten much much easier, and player friendly. The 15 second resummon isnt that big of a deal. Inconveience yes, game stopping? LoL.

[/ QUOTE ]Nobody is claiming they are gamestopping... but making things less convenient for players is NOT the direction fixes should take when it is avoidable.


<blockquote><hr>

You usually hunt for at least two hour, for 1 minute summoning time takes what? not even 1% of the time you are out hunting.

[/ QUOTE ]*wishes he had enough free time to hunt for 1 straight hour half of the time, let alone 2*


<blockquote><hr>

Besides when you said you no want ur pettie die coz it loses a huge amount of all 0.1 of their skill points

[/ QUOTE ]The issue isn't the skill and stat loss - it's the time and the principle of the matter.
I don't want my pet to die because I respect my pet. Yes, it's just pixels. Yes, it's a trivial loss. No, I don't want to have to go through it if I don't need to, just like I don't want a soda machine to eat my quarter. It's ok if it happens, but I'm going to be irked when it does... especially if I know that the person who repairs the soda machine fixed a broken button in such a way that increased the odds of the machine eating my quarter when he was distinctly provided an equally good way of fixing the machine without hindering the coin slot.

 

[Good_Ole_Lefty]

A very good solution.

I don't know to much about pets and pet balls, but what of multible summoning balls. Could these be exploited?

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

These changes do not solve the issue of Greater Dragon tamers running around in animal form at mounted speed.
??????? it doesn't ??????????
running around in animal form .... no ... and .... Wasn't "the problem"

running around in animal form and SPAMMING a petsummoning ball ... welll seems to HAVE been addressed

perhaps re-addressed and Over addressed ... Re: animal form ...

* Pet summoning balls cannot be used while in animal form.
* Pet summoning balls should have a reuse delay of 15 seconds.
* Pet summoning balls should have a couple second casting animation with the chance to disrupt like other spellcasting.

*shrugs* well ... what did I miss? Re: Greater Dragon tamers running around in animal form ?

Okay ... tamer runs in ... gets a summons off ... resumes form and runs off ...

I thought step one in dealing with a tamer pet combo ... was seperating the tamer from the pet ... and working one or the other if not both ... has to go animal form to "get away ..."

*shrugs* well ... what did I miss?

 

[Good_Ole_Lefty]

<blockquote><hr>

I wrote a hardcore pvp tamer guide which I will repost here for all the hardcore pvp tamers. Use it before petballs get changed.


Serious hardcore PvP tamer 101. (Sorry fellow professional hardcore pvp tamers I am letting the secrets out)
1. Bond a super dragon and link it to a pet ball.
2. Have an Hxbow or Bola ready.
3. Have enough ninjitsu for mount speed form.
4. Make an UOA macro X as the following: Click "record", double click pet ball, all kill, target an item, click "stop" Now on UOA screen insert 250 pause time after "Use Item" and then change "Target" to "Last Target". Make a hotkey "Y" to play Macro X.
5. Find a victim.
6. Dismount -&gt; Dismount Shot or Bola to bola victim
7. Go into a running form and stick to the victim now running on his feet. Click Y, if victim survives first dragon assult and is gaining distance from your dragon, run to melee range again and click Y, Repeat until victim is dropped dead and an automated gold transfer message is shown on your screen.

This is the easiest way of becoming a highly skilled PvPer. There are many variations to it but you get the main idea.

The best part is after you killed your victim you can run up to his ghost and say "Owned Noob", "Learn2PvP", "Damn! you are terrible, I owned you with 1 key"

[/ QUOTE ]

Why am I not surprised you posted this War? All kill = no skill. Everyone knows that..

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

Well said IMO

The pet ball is a pvm tool and was too easily abused in pvp.

Like it or not certain items/moves are pvp or pvm specific so they need to be adjusted accordingly.

 

[imported_Sarphus]

<blockquote><hr>

These changes do not solve the issue of Greater Dragon tamers running around in animal form at mounted speed. Personally, I would have like to seen a mana cost for summoning (not affected by lower mana cost). Something like 10 mana for every follower slot the pet takes. A greater dragon would cost 50 mana every summon.

[/ QUOTE ]

The dragons don't run that fast. Sure, a tamer can go to a ninja form and run really fast, but their pet will not keep up.

 

[imported_revenant2]

<blockquote><hr>

i still think that the mark has been missed on this one. I like the fact that a person has a castin time that can be disrupted while summoning a pet. that will make it harder for dismounted people to summon swampies and mount.

However the issue of super dragons and ninja form has not been solved. The whole purpose of having these creatures take 5 slots is to place the owner on foot and a disadvantage. Ninja forms are a work around that most likely was unintended. The solution is simply to make all forms you change into take one follower slot. This would prevent people with these super dragons from speeding out when in danger. Ninjas dont need follower slots for the most part so having animal form take 1 follower will not harm the character class and would balance super dragons in PvP

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you mean..

I get the sense (or thought, or something) they may want to see how these pet ball changes work out in the grand scheme of things, and see if after that, a guy in animal form with a superdragon still has too much ability.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Wenchkin, your fixation to push all the 'problems' to just the petball will get the new dragons nerfed. It makes perfect sense now to drop hide | stealth and lug around the most durable pet as the more fragile smaller pets cannot be called back easily using petballs. This means that any remaining PvP Tamers will drop the hide | stealth skillset and take other skillsets.

If you understand the concept of how bio-diversity irl help species survive, by closing the door on one species (stealth tamer), you effectively help limit the options and more nerfs will affect tamers as a result in long term. Maybe that's your real hidden agenda : to nerf the tamer profession ?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'm certainly not dropping stealth from my Fel tamer, and having 6 tamers so far, I really don't see how I can fall into the "tamer hater who wants taming extinction" camp

Some of us don't use pet balls on stealth attacks and velcroing them to foes. Yeah, I have to be careful my pets don't get pulled away, but I haven't lost one yet. Business as usual for me. Same pets as before too. We do have commands for calling our pets too, remember? It's a simple case of tamers adapting to look after their pets and take care of them in PvP. If I can handle pets without pet balls, others can too. Remember, once upon a time we didn't have bonded pets or pet balls. I wouldn't suggest any changes that would inconvenience my tamers, I'm simply not a big user of pet balls.

<blockquote><hr>


PvP Necro Dismount Tamers + New Dragon + Pet Ball Changes = next strongest gimp template.

The sad thing is I and a few other legit folks cannot think of a legit counter to such a combination. The only way is to nerf one pet : the new dragons rather than tweak necromancy. The other way : Get Speeders .

[/ QUOTE ]

Once the changes are tested and if necessary modified, the gimp tamer as we know it won't exist. Whatever template is put with the pets, they have to handle those beasties with a degree of skill to score kills. They can be countered, but I'd suggest a spell on test shard to see for yourself, how much easier that becomes.

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

Who wanted this changed?Who wanted to nerf tamers?
Wanst it Leurecon who started this disgussin?
It wanst the prodactionshard community and it wanst the siega tamer problem of the community.It was Leurican who started this disgusion to get the change!!!!
If leurecan is a developer she cant start this dusgussion by herselfe just to nerf somting becasue she is not regular player!!
Second it we use pe bals to save ouer pets from death.If so player remove the skill lost from pets if they die.Does it make any sense to get skil lost by death of a pet anymore?Why pks dont have skil lost by death like pre AOS?
Someone wrote the grater dragon isnt the problem becasue he is to low moving and other run with speedhack.
What is the problem?Leurecan you wanted the change not we the community.
Pet ball has 15 timer.Pet ball castuing can be disrupted.Pet ball cant cast as animal form.Pet ball cant be cast during sealth.This isnt one thing to change pet ball its 4 things.Then some wrote here on this thered right now and we need paralyze of the tamer if he use pet ball and Leurecan wrote yes we dev do that too.So its 5 things nerfing pet ball.
Now on the otherhand yes i know a pk tamer doong macro runing wtih animalform and kill you wiih pet ball superdragon and he dont use bolas becasue he macro it.Then Leurecan is right.But what if you want to play 5 frezied ostards?Next thing is a blue discord tamer wich discord or peace me blue pet has to be ger grey criminal.Next thing is like other mmorpg games we need tamers no pet agro if we run trough dungeons by mops that means i can run wihtout agro trough dungeons and only if i say pet kill my pet starting to fight.
And we have so many other problems in uo.Yes i did it to call a gm becasue of the necromage wich makes 100 damamge on me wtih a spell and he is still there and doing it and noting happen.After 2 days he still run arround and make damage wtih one spell 100 damage.Next time im gouing to write his name here!!!!!And i dont care anymore!
Please devide the class mage and the class necro!and get some timer on their spells.Yesterday myuperdragon died in pvp and i stoped playing uo for about 20 houers becasue of the 7 skillost on it.So i dint played uo 20 houers becasue of pet die and skillost.Is this the right way?
Pet ball 15 secponds timer and not using it as animal form maybe is the right way and leurecan is right.But please pets realy once they are traned dont need this skillost and we cant champ becasue ouer pets are not under controll so we need non agro trouhg mobs until you say all kill.
This is a posting from me is for both ways the positive of the change and the negative.

 

[imported_Traveller]

<blockquote><hr>


* Pet summoning balls cannot be used while in animal form.

[/ QUOTE ]

As things stand now, people can use the ball and immediately go in animal form. What probably would really fix the issue is to have fast animal forms to require 1 control slots to be casted. This wouldn't be a concern for a real ninja, which doesn't run around with pets, but would force a tamer to choose between 4 slots + mount, or 5 slots on foot.

 

[Guest]

Traveller
Becasue like this pk tamer rung behind me and caling pet trough petball and killed me several times in maimal form.And im tamer too.So this will stop to run in animal form and cast pet on you like mashinegun and not to use a bola or heavy xbow for dinsmount.

 

[Llewen]

There is no doubt that something should have been done about this problem. I haven't seen the problem with ninja tamers on my shard (Catskills), but I am a pvp tamer, and I understand why this change needed to happen. What I don't get is the heavy handedness of it.

Simply making pet balls unusable in animal form would have solved the problem, without screwing over every taming template, as it appears will now be the case. What the devs have done is ensured that the new greater dragons will be the only pet worth using in pvp, because all of the other ones will be extremely hard to keep alive.

And again, I've said this a dozen times already, but I'll say it again. Any changes to "balance" the game, are completely skewed by the level of cheating that goes on. Speeding is just part of the problem, but it has been a problem since just about day one, and this is over ten years later, and we still have the same problem, and it effects tamers in pvp more than any other template because pets are so slow.

 

[imported_Yalp]

First... glad to know someone IS listening to the UO playing community. That is a good thing to listen to your customers and provide GOOD customer service.

Second... Providing smart and effective changes to your customers complaints is far better than just wholesale changes for the sake of changes.

Third.... Many peeps in the previous thread pointed out there's a huge bias many pvp'rs hold against tamers. Your solutions have strengthed these biases.

Your solutions are overkill. Further reducing the legitimacy of tamers to play pvp. Your proposed changes will hurt pvm tamers, legitimate pvp tamers, and anyone in game that has a live mount.. so that's ...everyone... Many many peeps in the previous thread begged you to leave pvm issue alone. Many many peeps in the previous thread begged you to leave the prod shards alone. Your proposed changes hurt far more players than the few that have been shouting for changes.

Bad customer service is far worse than providing NO customer service.

LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM

 

[Guest]

Given that some tamers don't take pet balls out the bank at all, yet still enjoy PvM and PvP in all situations, I don't think it's really accurate to call this a tamer nerf. I'm not going to notice this change at all.

The only "nerf" in this change, is requiring tamers to take better care of their pets. To employ tactics in PvP, maybe even cast a few spells or do damage themselves. To realise that if they wade into a massive spawn, they can't just yoink the leash repeatedly to vet up. Sometimes pets will die, and the death penalty skill loss will remind us to be more careful next time.

It's like the stabiliser wheels on a kids bike. You think they're holding you up, when you can cycle on 2 wheels just fine. But we don't expect cyclists to stay with the stabilisers do we?

Maybe now these pet balls get fixed, we'll see a concerted effort from tamers to get AI fixed, rather than self-medicating with pet balls. That would be a huge bonus for us tamers. I had wondered why it was rarely mentioned... I guess we have the answer now. Pet balls = the elastoplast for tamer issues

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

I don't like the interruptable summons, but the rest is cool. No issue with a emote stating it's use, or 2 seconds for pet to appear, but if I run into two players, one keeps spamming weaken or something to interrupt the summons while the other kills tamer. Then, if I fail, do I have to wait 15 seconds again? I like all the changes but the interruption. You can't really interrupt a mini heal, a bandy, or a pot, all important tools to mages/dexxers. Yet the tamer's main defense can be?

 

[Guest]

I'd liken it to gating in a friend, which a player could defend against by trying to interrupt or dispel the gate. I wouldn't expect to cast a gate to bring in other players, without someone stopping me. The same will now stand with tamers. It'll be advantageous to have pets with you to begin with. It does affect surprise attacks, but the best defence is to summon earlier if you need pets to defend. There's nothing to stop you summoning and invising the pets, for example.

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

I'd liken it to gating in a friend, which a player could defend against by trying to interrupt or dispel the gate. I wouldn't expect to cast a gate to bring in other players, without someone stopping me. The same will now stand with tamers. It'll be advantageous to have pets with you to begin with. It does affect surprise attacks, but the best defence is to summon earlier if you need pets to defend. There's nothing to stop you summoning and invising the pets, for example.

Wenchy

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but trying to move quickly through populated areas towing pets isn't exactly easy, as their AI takes them the shortest path, which is why they get hung up all the time. Much easier to get where I'm going and then summon them.

 

[Guest]

If what you say is true, then how do I function as a tamer with my pet balls gathering dust in the bank? How did I cope with PvP when I didn't have a greater dragon? Why am I not really that enthusiastic that the greater drag will be my favourite pet?

Not every tamer *needs* pet balls, because while I curse at pet AI, I know how to work around it. I adapted to it. I don't like it, and want it fixed, but it sure as heck doesn't stop me doing much. I'd much rather play as I do and have the gimps taken out of taming, than continue as we are, with such shameful gimps calling themselves PvP tamers.

I realise you maybe haven't seen many gimp tamers on your shard, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or cause problems. There are certain PvPers whose judgement I wouldn't question, and when they're explaining the problem I believe them. Especially when one takes out his tamer and gives a demo

Wenchy

 

[Gildar]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>


* Pet summoning balls cannot be used while in animal form.

[/ QUOTE ]

As things stand now, people can use the ball and immediately go in animal form. What probably would really fix the issue is to have fast animal forms to require 1 control slots to be casted. This wouldn't be a concern for a real ninja, which doesn't run around with pets, but would force a tamer to choose between 4 slots + mount, or 5 slots on foot.

[/ QUOTE ]Pet ball - 2 seconds, disruptable.
Animal form - (I forget how long it takes to cast...) dismount attacks knock the player out of this form, and prevent them from returning to the form for a short while.

I don't think being in an animal form while controlling 5 slots worth of pets is the issue, especially not when they lose stamina at an alarming rate while running in animal form, and use at least 70 skill points to be able to get into the form.

 

[Gildar]

<blockquote><hr>

Simply making pet balls unusable in animal form would have solved the problem, without screwing over every taming template

[/ QUOTE ]Problem 1: Fast animal form keeping up with mounted player, repeatedly summoning &lt;insert any combination of pets capable of killing a player that takes up at most 5 slots&gt;.
Problem 2: Walking player dismounting opponent, keeping up with them after dismounted, repeatedly summoning &lt;insert any combination of pets capable of killing a player that takes up at most 5 slots&gt;.
Problem 3: Mounted player keeping up with mounted player, repeatedly summoning &lt;insert any combination of pets capable of killing a player that takes up less than 5 slots&gt;

The greater dragon happens to be the biggest problem, since it's so powerful, but it isn't the only problem.

 

[Guest]

Make it a 45 second delay atleast.

You dont want someone just withdrawing a pet to save it from it getting killed. Thats what a tamer is suppose to be as a tamer. Not via a pet-ball

 

[Gildar]

<blockquote><hr>

Make it a 45 second delay atleast.

You dont want someone just withdrawing a pet to save it from it getting killed. Thats what a tamer is suppose to be as a tamer. Not via a pet-ball

[/ QUOTE ]If it is per pet, not per player, and something is done to counteract the pet AI issue of pets disobeying a follow command because they're getting attacked... I'd be ok with 45 seconds.

 

[Guest]

Maybe the one is right we normal shards dont have much pvp tamers like sieg and its not ouer problem its sieg problem and therofore making not using petbal in animlaform is enought and we dont need 5 changes becasue of "one pet ball".

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

If what you say is true, then how do I function as a tamer with my pet balls gathering dust in the bank? How did I cope with PvP when I didn't have a greater dragon? Why am I not really that enthusiastic that the greater drag will be my favourite pet?

Not every tamer *needs* pet balls, because while I curse at pet AI, I know how to work around it. I adapted to it. I don't like it, and want it fixed, but it sure as heck doesn't stop me doing much. I'd much rather play as I do and have the gimps taken out of taming, than continue as we are, with such shameful gimps calling themselves PvP tamers.

I realise you maybe haven't seen many gimp tamers on your shard, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or cause problems. There are certain PvPers whose judgement I wouldn't question, and when they're explaining the problem I believe them. Especially when one takes out his tamer and gives a demo

Wenchy

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't entirely disagree with you. I will adapt, and it isn't going to slow me down much, but that doesn't change the validity of what I have said. I've been doing a lot of yelling about cheating, but the fact that it is still a huge problem doesn't slow me down much either...

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

Thank you Leurocian for fixing the problem without unnecessarily nerfing Ninjitsu.

To the various posts about 'they can still summon their pet then animal form!'... it doesn't matter, that wasn't the issue. Most (even average) pvpers not only don't care that their likely to get attacked by pets but expect it. The issue was that they could pet ball in animal form while chasing dismounted players for inescapeable kills.

To the various posts STILL trying to add a control slot to animal form... IT ISN'T NECESSARY.

 

[Saint of Killers]

It's all about the pet balls, as it should be.

Fizzling pet balls seems silly though. Having a 30 second timer and no fizzling is fair.

Come to Great Lakes if you want to see the ridiculous abuse of "pet ball pvp". Truly below average pvp'ers with a beetle &amp; mare do very well against solid pvp'ers.

The new dragons/ninja/stealther/dismounter temp turns even the worst pvp'ers here into people to be concerned about in the field.

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Maybe now these pet balls get fixed, we'll see a concerted effort from tamers to get AI fixed, rather than self-medicating with pet balls.

[/ QUOTE ]But you see, that is just it, and that is why I have been doing some yelling, and why I am generally not happy with these changes. No one has said anything official about the a.i. being fixed, and my guess is, if it is even on the priority list, it is nowhere near the top. In other words, we aren't going to see anything done with the a.i. any time soon, and certainly not this year.

[/ QUOTE ]
Leurocian has made me eat my words, and I am more than happy to do it! There's still a long way to go, but I am beginning to hope that this is the beginning of a very special year for UO.

 

[Chango Pelon]

<blockquote><hr>



Simply making pet balls unusable in animal form would have solved the problem,

[/ QUOTE ]

I am just upset that others with ZERO riding skill can still use a pet ball while mounted. MaKe it fair if you are trying to make it fair...

 

[LAH Architect]

First of all, give Siege players their changes. They deserve it for choosing to play under difficult rules. Let them be a test shard for these pet ball changes and we can see how true PvP is affected.

Second, do consider JC's mana usage suggestion. Taking up mana to call pets = not able to spam them endlessly. Remember skill point limitations means many of the feared stealth ninja tamers do not have meditation = cannot spam them. This will allow normal PvPers to call their 1 slot mounts for 10 mana to escape dismount ganks.

<blockquote><hr>

Given that some tamers don't take pet balls out the bank at all, yet still enjoy PvM and PvP in all situations, I don't think it's really accurate to call this a tamer nerf. I'm not going to notice this change at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does not matter if you have 6 legendary tamers or more. I have 10 above GM tamers across shards but I do not use that to validate my feedback. I feel that you are too biased against PvP tamers and it's terrible to call them shameful. They have not cheated using illegal programs, but just have a playstyle different from yours. This does not warrant them to be nerfed till their playstyles (extension of tamer) gets canned. I have to say that your experience with PvP tamers is limited too since you feel shameful about them and don't explore further into the tactics to play them as well as against them.

There are many ways to fight against PvP tamers and they are all legit ways ! PvP tamers come in all favors, using diffferent pets, different tactics as well as different skill levels. There are pros and cons of using PvP Tamers, that is why you do not see the battlefields have a homogenous spread of just PvP tamers. They are effective and have a place currently in Fel PvP scene, which in turn make PvP bards counters and thievies (Siege) valuable too. This all makes Fel PvP more diverse and players have more choices rather than the plain old Mage vs Dexer.

Anti-tamer sentiments have been in UO for a long time. They were called twinks. So removing the PvP tamers will not get tamers any more respect. Respect is earned by individuals and not branded as a profession.

<blockquote><hr>

The only "nerf" in this change, is requiring tamers to take better care of their pets. To employ tactics in PvP, maybe even cast a few spells or do damage themselves. To realise that if they wade into a massive spawn, they can't just yoink the leash repeatedly to vet up. Sometimes pets will die, and the death penalty skill loss will remind us to be more careful next time.

It's like the stabiliser wheels on a kids bike. You think they're holding you up, when you can cycle on 2 wheels just fine. But we don't expect cyclists to stay with the stabilisers do we?

[/ QUOTE ]

Many hardcore PvM and PvP tamers use petballs to manage their pets well. Good non-tamer PvPers use petballs to combat dismounts. It means nothing that you choose to keep your petballs inside the bank, apart that you currently do not use them.

I would suggest that you are the one on the stabilisers as they not only provide support but impose LIMITATIONS on how fast you can cycle and even go places (hinderance on narrow paths). High end content in PvM is intense and PvP is no walk in the park either. Enterprising and creative tamers have expended the playstyle of the tamers beyond PvM meatshields &amp; Trammy Twinks and that is exciting progress ! Their skill playing the taming profession is no lesser than yours and probably surpass as they continue to challenge the usual way.

<blockquote><hr>

Maybe now these pet balls get fixed, we'll see a concerted effort from tamers to get AI fixed, rather than self-medicating with pet balls. That would be a huge bonus for us tamers. I had wondered why it was rarely mentioned... I guess we have the answer now. Pet balls = the elastoplast for tamer issues

[/ QUOTE ]

Unlikely. A timer, disruptable on pet ball = dismount special move into picture = next nerf = next nerf = next nerf. AI coding is hard to fix, limited resources. Other issues that get more vocal support will just mean 'but we 'fixed' the tamer petball issue, so you can't say we not given attention' explaination and you are assigned to back of queue now.

<blockquote><hr>

Come to Great Lakes if you want to see the ridiculous abuse of "pet ball pvp". Truly below average pvp'ers with a beetle &amp; mare do very well against solid pvp'ers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take it that these petball pvpers with beetle &amp; mare have been ingame for a while now and not all the solid pvpers have new templates to join them as tamers ? The resentment is that they have strengths, but they can be taken down with tactics and skill, not by nerfing them back to being just trammel meatshields and twink tamers.

 

[Trailer Trash]

Thank god!!!!!
i am playing greatlakes right now and yew gate is over run with tamers as we speak, six tamers all with beetles and the new dragons killing everything that moves!!! These changes should remove 90 percent of tamers from fel

 

[Sergul'zan_SP]

<blockquote><hr>

Yew Gate is Newbie PvP !

Just get ONE blue bard and disco all six pets.

Set up Para field trap with reds and gank one pet at a time (paralysed pets do nothing) . I hope you don't speak for GL PvP reds.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sure seem to know a lot about it...spend a lot of time there or something?

 

[Trailer Trash]

Yew gate is newb pvp?
Yew gate is fun dont you like fun?
On GL pvp is everywhere spawns, harrys,dungeons and factions!!!
Yew gate is a small part of pvp on gl and i have no problem admitting i enjoy fighting there but it is only a small part of pvp!!! I fight everywhere!!!
But thanks for you input tough guy!!!

 

[LAH Architect]

Yes, I spend time at various places including Yew Gate.

I feel that to understand something, you have to do it yourself. This means that I have played a PvP Tamer as well as against a PvP Tamer at Yew, at Champion Spawns, at Harrowers etc. My feedback is based upon actual ingame experience on both sides. My take on this is that PvP Tamers have advantages but also disadvantages. They can be countered by many methods and suck at certain situations. That is why you do not see the whole of Fel plagued by just PvP Tamers.

My preference for Fel activites is still my necro mage. It's the most useful general purpose character. I die a lot to good red stealth ninja tamers but note my template favours general purpose rather than a strong anti-tamer theme. I also kill a lot of lousy ninja stealth tamers because I have lottas practise combating the good ones. This is 1 vs 1. When the odds change in my favour like 2 vs 1 PvP Tamer, our win ratio becomes 80% . It's all about understanding the weakness of your opponent and how well you are equipped (items | templates) to fight against that type of opponent.

Yew Gate is not active at all on Asian Shards. That makes Yew worthless on half of UO's shards. Yew Gate is noted for its Guard Zone for which newer blue players trying PvP can have a safe zone. These newer blue players in turn are convenient and easy prey to red PvPers which retreat to their Yew houses when they get out-numbered. There is no reward at Yew Gate apart from the experience of easily finding a fight for USA, Europe shards. Experienced PvPers look for duels and fights where there are no safe zones.

 

[WarUltima]

It's funny many people here trying to tell us how pet ball pvp is cool, fair and all legit and how we can combat these tamers with a bard character. At they sametime they are the ones pvping with one uoa macro.

For a bard it takes at least 240 skill points to disable your pets which doesnt help them to kill any other template. So unless they are pvping against tamers they only have 480 skill points to take on other people's 720. So bards are cool only if they are against a tamer.

So let's apply this concept to the pvp tamers. They can use their pets all they want and with 120 taming/lore their pets can ONLY attack [insert class x here] and if the opponent is not playing a "class x" character your pets will not deal any damage nor will they defend you from getting attacked by ANY class than "class x"

So because it's ok for bards to get 720 pts vs a tamer and 480 against anything else.

of course it's completely fair tamers should get 720 pts vs hmm... lets see a detective (w/ detect hidden and tracking). So unless the player has detect hidden and tracking skill the pet will never ever respond to the tamer. If the player has both of the skill required the pet will kill them QUICK.... you know same logic you have to play a bard to stop a tamer.

According to all the tamers here suggesting people should play a bard or stfu, my proposal for tamer only effective vs "class x" here is completely cool, just like what they tamers asked.

 

[LAH Architect]

Many people have not yet tried Bard PvP.

<u>Template :</u>

120 Magery
120 Evalint
120 Magic Resist
120 Meditation / Peace

120 Music
120 Disco

It is a working PvP Mage with bard skills. It's true that it will have 240 less skillpoints against other templates but that's what you have to sacrifice to have tremendous advantage vs a PvP Tamer. Same logic as if you take Parry and Bushido on defensive build warrior, you don't have skillpoints for offensive skills like Poisoning and Lumberjacking. I have seen Yew Gate PvP Guilds make newbie elf characters with 50 Detect Hidden, 50 Tracking and station them at the Gate in their birthday suit just to get advantage over all stealthers (passively reveal) on normal shards.

If the PvP Tamers are a plague in Fel for normal shards and all PvPers only play these, then PvP Bards would be appearing everywhere also to win against them.
We all know that this is not the case and PvP Tamers are just one of the templates in Fel. Siege shard is the exception and they are very vocal about this. I agree on their feedback for Siege due to their shard's special rules.

Some posters have tremendous problems fighting against PvP tamers and my suggestion is to use a PvP bard since they can't make it on their normal characters. Note that PvP Bard is not the only counter to PvP Tamer. It is the strongest. Many experienced Parry Dexers and Mages can fight against PvP Tamers but they don't have the extra edge against PvP Tamers.

E.g. : If your opponents field 4 PvP Tamers and 2 Dexers against your team (equal numbers), your winning chances are :

(1) All Dexers : 20%
(2) Mixture Dexers and Mages : 50%
(3) Mixture Dexers, Mages and one Bard = 80%

But if your opponent field 6 Parry LP Dexers, Team (3) now will have their winning percentage lower. PvP will not be fun if everyone ran around with just one type of template and use scripts and speeders as the winning chance X-Factor.

 

[WarUltima]

Traditional Tamer mage:

120 Magery
120 Evalint
120 Magic Resist
120 Meditation / Vet
120 Taming
120 Lore

Even if the pets are disabled they still hold equal pvp capability as the bard. So the bard dont have even the slightest edge here. While the tamer kills EVERYTHING quick while having the same 480 skill points as the bard. The bard would suck hard against EVERYTHING (and have EQUAL pvp capability as the tamer)

Now let me make this simple for whoever is confused.

Bard's 240 points only works for tamers. (while not gaining any advatange)
Tamer's 240 points works for every living things out there cept for bards.

Bard equals to a tamer while playing against each other
Bard gets OWNED BY everything else.

Tamers equals to a bard while playing against each other
Tamers OWN everything else.

Anyone with a common sense knows this is not equal.... at all.

 

[LAH Architect]

That's the traditional Mage Tamer with resist and meditation, you don't need a PvP Bard for that. It's weakness is no vet (one use weapon) or no meditation (can't substain long fights). Are we moving into the realm of normal tamer templates and trying to get them totally banned in Fel ?

Many of the posters are scared of the ' Ninja Stealth Tamer ' . That template has a lot of limitations as well as advantages.

If it is really true that the Traditional Mage Tamer owns all, then all the speedhacking scripting PvPers that only want to win by all means will be getting on tamers by now and we know that cheaters make up a large percentage in UO PvP scenes.

 

[WarUltima]

That's just one example of showing how bards still dont really stand on a fair ground as the tamer.

The fact is the tamer spend the equal amount of points as the bard. Yet the tamer owns everything and only lose 240 skill points against a bard, while the bard ONLY get 480 skill points always forever until he/she meets a tamer with pet.

 

[LAH Architect]

That's the beauty of diversity in templates. No single template can always have upper hand against all templates.

To fight a normal mage tamer, I would use a

Bard Archer, Tamer-Bard or even a Stealth Tamer. By nerfing the stealth Tamer now, you remove one legit way (template) to fight the mage tamer.

I actually had for two weeks a stealth ninja tamer with tracking. It was extremely successful against enemy stealth ninja tamers. When they swing their bolas and pop out, I unleased my pets against their 0 melee and they die in 5 seconds. It's about knowing tactics and weaknesses. I soulstoned it out because the tracking affected that char's success against harder opponents with other templates and there were very few good ninja stealth tamers that warrant that char having that tremendous advantage over them.

This is a list of the more active red / noto blue PvP Tamers on Baja that I have killed 1vs1 , except one of them that runs very fast after drinking gummi berry juice. That one won't be affected by petball nerfs.

Mr Giggles ($C$) - Greater Hiryu
Omega ($C$) - Greater Hiryu
Hottie ($C$) - Greater Hiryu / Cusidhe

Taslin (DEA) - Cusidhe
Euphoria (DEA) - Unknown
Mad Tamer (DEA) - Unknown
Nero (H2O) - WW + Nightmare

Razor Ramon HG (CT) - Rune Beetle + Bake Kitsune
tara (CT) - Rune Beetle + Bake Kitsune
Dr. Kanon (CT) - Rune Beetle + Bake Kitsune
haniu (CT) - Rune Beetle + Nightmare
Lachesis (CT) - Rune Beetle + Nightmare
Rozen Maiden (CT) - Cusidhe

Skurge (FO_O) - Cusidhe

The best in that list is Razor Ramon HG , a red stealther ninja tamer. He is good because he has a lot of practise. My chances on a necro mage is only 20% vs him but almost 100% vs his teammate tara. On the rare occasion I get on my stealther ninja tamer, I have 50% chance depending on situation conditions and it feels like a battle of nerves between 2 snipers. I am very happy to fight him on my necro mage as it is a challenge. It's definitely more fun than a gummi bear dexer or mage.

Every template has a weakness. The more diverse templates are in Fel, the more choices we have. By over-nerfing, we restrict ourselves to a small sandbox with just choice of Dexer or Mage.

Don't forget that the PvP Mage Bard is a tremendous asset during the killing of Champions \ Harrowers. Many experienced top PvP Guilds have them.

 

[smile]

<blockquote><hr>

I feel that to understand something, you have to do it yourself. This means that I have played a PvP Tamer as well as against a PvP Tamer at Yew, at Champion Spawns, at Harrowers etc. My feedback is based upon actual ingame experience on both sides. My take on this is that PvP Tamers have advantages but also disadvantages. They can be countered by many methods and suck at certain situations. That is why you do not see the whole of Fel plagued by just PvP Tamers.

[/ QUOTE ]

You had mentioned this in quite a number of your various posts on pvp tamers. You seem to know how to defeat a tamer well, even on a 1 on 1. To make your points stronger, care to share what are those effective tactics that you have used to kill a tamer 1 on 1?

As to why there are not many pvp tamers on production shards, I do not know how you get that idea. Trailer Trash had mentioned that GL has lots of pvp tamers. I had seen many myself too. Someone had also mentioned about a guild comprising lots of tamer in Atlantic in some other posts.

With these proposed changes to improve pets AI, i can foresee even more pvp tamers now that they do not have to worry about their overpowering pets being distracted and attacking the wrong target.

 

[Al Thorin]

Sorry, but you're simply dismissing bards as useless because they can't fling deadly musical notes at people.

Let me put it simply. I asume you have friends, or something closely related.

Go out with your buddies, and fight as a -group-.

If you -know- tamers will become an issue, then perhaps having someone on a bard as a -healer- would -greatly- benifit the group in general (healer), and even more should you encounter a tamer.

A 1 second 'pause' on a pet can make a world of difference.

Yes, the bard is no killing machine, but when played as a support char/healer, they can greatly increase the strength of a group.

Unless of course, you're all too self absorbed with delivering kill shots to be able play as a member of a -team-.

 

[smile]

<blockquote><hr>

Traditional Tamer mage:

120 Magery
120 Evalint
120 Magic Resist
120 Meditation / Vet
120 Taming
120 Lore



[/ QUOTE ]

Most pvp tamers do not even play such traditional templates. They know how to maximise their abilities. My tamer controls pets well with just 115 taming, 110 lore and 80 vet. 80 vet is generally sufficient as my pets do not die 1 on 1. In a gank situation, my pets are likely to die even if I were to have 120 vet.

I also do not run with 120 magic resist. Matter of fact, I can manage without magic resist (unless I am playing pvm, which includes whacking spawns). Most warriors run without magic resist too, especially the bushido warriors. A trapped box, apples and potions will get you along fine, together with normal magery heals and cures. You can even be a fc4 chiv healer if you want, although you will miss earthquake to reveal others.

Together with skill increment items, these give pvp tamers a lot of flexibility. I have often heard stuff like "kill the tamer first, and the battle is won". Most tamers are harder to kill than you think. As for those who suck at surviving, they can always play a ninjitsu mage. Just smoke bomb when in danger and leave the fighting to your pets.