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NEWS UO Newsletter #45

Keith of Sonoma

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
You seem to forget that we are talking about real people who make a living off of this game. Sure, it would be a valiant move to ban anyone you think is a cheater, but if it causes the game to end , it's not worth it. @Kyronix can't come home one day and say, "well kids, we don't get to eat dinner tonight, but we tried!" Just because you think it will make you happy doesn't make it true. Things aren't as black and white as you seem to think they are.
I haven't forgotten anything, but I would suggest that it IS black and white. Some of us have integrity, and do the right thing, and obviously some of us don't. There is no "grey area". A person either does what is right, or not. Not just when it is convenient, or "helps" us in some way. Not being able to stop the cheaters/scripters/RMT people, is one thing. But to KNOW who they are, and NOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT THEM, is a completely different matter. It's still "black and white".

There is a name for someone who knows about something illegal/immoral/unethical and ALLOWS it to continue!
 

Keven2002

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
You seem to forget that we are talking about real people who make a living off of this game. Sure, it would be a valiant move to ban anyone you think is a cheater, but if it causes the game to end , it's not worth it. @Kyronix can't come home one day and say, "well kids, we don't get to eat dinner tonight, but we tried!" Just because you think it will make you happy doesn't make it true. Things aren't as black and white as you seem to think they are.
Couldn't have said it better.

People seem to be a little short sighted on the "banning all cheaters" and only have a problem with the scripters that are taking away their chances at getting something from an IDOC. How about the scripters that are resource gathering or fishing and allow these same people to buy resources at a discounted rate? I don't hear anyone making a big deal about those people; I wonder why? ;)

I can see the same people saying they would rather the game run clean (ban all the scripters) and the game shut down be the same people on here complaining how cheaters ruined their beloved Ultima and it's not fair that a few bad apples spoil the bunch.

As I said before, I'd much rather see the effort go towards new content or fixing known bugs because the truth is that will please more of the masses than implementing some IDOC change to thwart scripters that half the population will just gripe about anyway.
 

Stinky Pete

Seasoned Veteran
Governor
Supporter
UNLEASHED
I haven't forgotten anything, but I would suggest that it IS black and white. Some of us have integrity, and do the right thing, and obviously some of us don't. There is no "grey area". A person either does what is right, or not. Not just when it is convenient, or "helps" us in some way. Not being able to stop the cheaters/scripters/RMT people, is one thing. But to KNOW who they are, and NOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT THEM, is a completely different matter. It's still "black and white".

There is a name for someone who knows about something illegal/immoral/unethical and ALLOWS it to continue!
I still don't think you get it. The devs families don't eat integrity, they eat food, which costs money. If the game goes away, so do their jobs. It's selfish of you to want people to lose their jobs just because you think it might help you to enjoy some video game.
 

jack flash uk

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Couldn't have said it better.

People seem to be a little short sighted on the "banning all cheaters" and only have a problem with the scripters that are taking away their chances at getting something from an IDOC. How about the scripters that are resource gathering or fishing and allow these same people to buy resources at a discounted rate? I don't hear anyone making a big deal about those people; I wonder why? ;)

I can see the same people saying they would rather the game run clean (ban all the scripters) and the game shut down be the same people on here complaining how cheaters ruined their beloved Ultima and it's not fair that a few bad apples spoil the bunch.

As I said before, I'd much rather see the effort go towards new content or fixing known bugs because the truth is that will please more of the masses than implementing some IDOC change to thwart scripters that half the population will just gripe about anyway.
As far as I can see you are missing a MASSIVE problem. I would bet the majority of script miners, lumberjacks provide stock for RMT sites. Disposable chars that can be replaced if they are found.

Players loot items from idocs and keep for themselves to make game play easier/better for them. Or they sell items they loot for in game gold

The MASSIVE problem with script cheat looters I they obviously cheat, but they take items OUT of the game economy. Onto a dodgy RMT site. Then sell the items back into the game for $$$,£££ and make a living from the game. If they are gone form the game at least we are dealing with game gold and not $$$

So if the the scripters are banned, killed, I dont care as long as they are GONE. The items will be 100% in game.

The only way to deal with this is banning cheats and cheat programs.

I even had an icq conversation with a rares guy about some neon boxes I want to buy. I got an answer, I take gold or Paypal, whatever is easier. WTF
 

Cyrah

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
It is a good thing she is re-thinking this. BUT what in the freaking world did she think was going to happen when someone typed that change to the house sign and hit enter? It is like she never saw UO , never met a player. never played the game. None of that is true, so why does stuff like this continue to happen? :oops:
 

Merus

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
I still don't think you get it. The devs families don't eat integrity, they eat food, which costs money. If the game goes away, so do their jobs. It's selfish of you to want people to lose their jobs just because you think it might help you to enjoy some video game.
I am sorry, but no. Your argument is tantamount to advocating that we need criminals and that police officers should look the other way so that the police officers can keep investigating crime and have a job to feed their families.

Game developers and producers have a job to do, and part of that job is creating the ToS AND enforcing it. If they cannot do their jobs, then its time for them to find a different job.
 

Stinky Pete

Seasoned Veteran
Governor
Supporter
UNLEASHED
I'm not saying that the devs are good at their jobs. I'm just saying that it's stupid to expect them to essentially fire themselves over it.

Imagine having a job that you totally suck at, but your boss seems to think you are doing fine. Are you going to quit, putting your family and mortgage in jeopardy just for your own sense of integrity?
 

Keven2002

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
As far as I can see you are missing a MASSIVE problem. I would bet the majority of script miners, lumberjacks provide stock for RMT sites. Disposable chars that can be replaced if they are found.

Players loot items from idocs and keep for themselves to make game play easier/better for them. Or they sell items they loot for in game gold

The MASSIVE problem with script cheat looters I they obviously cheat, but they take items OUT of the game economy. Onto a dodgy RMT site. Then sell the items back into the game for $$$,£££ and make a living from the game. If they are gone form the game at least we are dealing with game gold and not $$$

So if the the scripters are banned, killed, I dont care as long as they are GONE. The items will be 100% in game.

The only way to deal with this is banning cheats and cheat programs.

I even had an icq conversation with a rares guy about some neon boxes I want to buy. I got an answer, I take gold or Paypal, whatever is easier. WTF
Where have you been the past 15 years? This has been happening for OVER a decade. I remember hearing about people selling castles for $1,000+ over 10 years ago and this was before scripting was rampant.I think you are misplacing the blame and seemingly think the scripters created RMT sites when it's the exact opposite. Banning scripters doesn't stop RTM sites and that guy selling neon boxes or some other rare is still going accept cash.

Is your issue that someone is scripting or someone is looking for cash for pixels? In your example it seems like you really are more mad about someone accepting paypal for something you don't script. If I were to spend 40 hours mining and chopping trees and asked for cash for the resources is that an issue to you? What if I scripted getting MIBs for 40 hours but then did public Ancient net tosses so that everyone has a chance to get prizes from that? Is that an issue?
 

jack flash uk

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Absolutely, and the only way to end world hunger is to give everyone food.
end animal agriculture and feed the food that feeds 60 billion animals to the 7 billion people :). But thats another debate that I, a Vegan animal rights and climate change campaigner loves to have. But another time :)
 

railshot

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
I was referring to cheating in general across the board. Finding and banning everyone who makes use of Scripts, or 3rd party utilities which exceed UO Assists capability would likely result in closure of the game.
You count banning scripters as a net negative in terms of accounts in game. I do not think this is necessarily true. There is a reason all games fight scripters (with varying degrees of success) - they tend to drive honest players away. Preponderance of scripters means fewer overall players, not less.
I'd divide the UO's scripters into two broad categories - 1) professional botters who harvest resources and have a serious effect on the economy; 2) Players why use scripts to make their life easier or to gain a competitive advantage in PvP. The first category is not going to be missed by anyone. The second category is large, but it's mostly because UO turned a blind eye for so long. I suspect most of them would stop scripting as soon as they see that the rules are enforced across the board. We are not going to lose them. And we'd probably get an influx of players who quit due to their disgust with scripting.
 

PageBoy

Journeyman
the day I can no longer use scripts to play will be the day I will leave UO. And will be the same thing for the 90% of the playerbase.

Every CC player I know (but one) uses third party programs, let’s be honest, UO is all about scripting :)
 

Nexus

Site Support
Administrator
Moderator
Professional
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Wiki Moderator
UNLEASHED
You count banning scripters as a net negative in terms of accounts in game. I do not think this is necessarily true. There is a reason all games fight scripters (with varying degrees of success) - they tend to drive honest players away. Preponderance of scripters means fewer overall players, not less.
I'd divide the UO's scripters into two broad categories - 1) professional botters who harvest resources and have a serious effect on the economy; 2) Players why use scripts to make their life easier or to gain a competitive advantage in PvP. The first category is not going to be missed by anyone. The second category is large, but it's mostly because UO turned a blind eye for so long. I suspect most of them would stop scripting as soon as they see that the rules are enforced across the board. We are not going to lose them. And we'd probably get an influx of players who quit due to their disgust with scripting.
Enforcing the rules across the board would result in bans or at least suspensions. Sure maybe some of the folks suspended would come back and not use scripts but what percentage wouldn't come back, and how long would it take for players who left in the past to come back?
 

Riyana

Operations
Administrator
Professional
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Event Coordinator
UNLEASHED
Campaign Patron
They are going to re think the change:

We have read your comments and went back to the drawing board to come up with a fair and reasonable solution to this problem. After we finalize everything we will be putting this on Test Center 1 for everyone to check out. This is not an easy fix that will make everyone happy but we have a few ideas that hit all your concerns. Please stay tuned and we will be letting you guys know more when we have something solid to show you.

As of right now we will be locking this thread and starting a new one when we have the changes in.

Thank all of you for being so passionate about a game we all love!

Mesanna
Wow. I know this will sound sarcastic coming from me even though it's not, but well done, Mesanna. I hope the rethought version works out.
 

MalagAste

Belaern d'Zhaunil
Governor
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Campaign Supporter
You count banning scripters as a net negative in terms of accounts in game. I do not think this is necessarily true. There is a reason all games fight scripters (with varying degrees of success) - they tend to drive honest players away. Preponderance of scripters means fewer overall players, not less.
I'd divide the UO's scripters into two broad categories - 1) professional botters who harvest resources and have a serious effect on the economy; 2) Players why use scripts to make their life easier or to gain a competitive advantage in PvP. The first category is not going to be missed by anyone. The second category is large, but it's mostly because UO turned a blind eye for so long. I suspect most of them would stop scripting as soon as they see that the rules are enforced across the board. We are not going to lose them. And we'd probably get an influx of players who quit due to their disgust with scripting.
I'd like to think if they finally cracked down on cheaters that people would return... but back of my mind says it's far too late that ship sailed LONG ago.... they have been so lax for so long about enforcing rules that I think most old players who wanted this fixed or they were gone are LONG gone and never coming back...
 

Keith of Sonoma

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
the day I can no longer use scripts to play will be the day I will leave UO. And will be the same thing for the 90% of the playerbase.

Every CC player I know (but one) uses third party programs, let’s be honest, UO is all about scripting :)
I play CC client, and DON'T use ANY scripts. Just saying! I think you are greatly overstating the percentage of players who cheat.
 

railshot

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
the day I can no longer use scripts to play will be the day I will leave UO. And will be the same thing for the 90% of the playerbase.

Every CC player I know (but one) uses third party programs, let’s be honest, UO is all about scripting :)
Um - how about No? Quite bit more than 10% use EC, and I am sure that not nearly 100% of CC users use scripts.
 

railshot

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Enforcing the rules across the board would result in bans or at least suspensions. Sure maybe some of the folks suspended would come back and not use scripts but what percentage wouldn't come back, and how long would it take for players who left in the past to come back?
It's not like they will ban all script users overnight. They will catch a small percentage, and others will take notice.
 

railshot

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Wow. I know this will sound sarcastic coming from me even though it's not, but well done, Mesanna. I hope the rethought version works out.
Maybe I am too demanding, but I am just unpleasantly surprised that a problem that was immediately obvious to so many players was completely missed by Mesanna and Co with all their experience. Really makes one wonder about the decision making process at BS.
 

skett

Lore Keeper
Supporter
Just browsing this thread and I to have Never used any 2nd or 3rd party program or script
I guess I’m 4 now
Been playing since 1999
 

ShriNayne

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Awards
5
I used the CC up to 2016 and I never used any third party software with it, not even UOAssist. I changed over to the EC later in 2016 and I didn't have any macros on that other than to help with mining as I get tendonitis in my clicky hand! My husband used UOAssist for a bit when he used the CC and then he moved over onto the EC. Neither of us ever used any of THOSE third party programs, although I think part of the problem is that people who played on the 'free' servers are encouraged to macro all night to raise skills and use extra software to avoid RSI, so when they come here they just carry on, often oblivious to the fact it's not allowed.
 

jack flash uk

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
the day I can no longer use scripts to play will be the day I will leave UO. And will be the same thing for the 90% of the playerbase.

Every CC player I know (but one) uses third party programs, let’s be honest, UO is all about scripting :)
Then copy this and your username and email Mesanna, see what happens. Can be very brave under a different name. Sad that you cannot play a GAME without having to cheat. But its your life
 

SteelRust

Journeyman
Enforcing the rules across the board would result in bans or at least suspensions. Sure maybe some of the folks suspended would come back and not use scripts but what percentage wouldn't come back, and how long would it take for players who left in the past to come back?
This is exactly the point, IMO. PERCENTAGE of Players gained vs that of Players lost. Below a certain number of PAYING Accounts (of whatever kind they could be) UO go broke and SIMPLY CLOSE. And, IMO, the "Paladins of Black & White" in their shiny Armor should keep this in mind when riding their High Horses...
 
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PageBoy

Journeyman
Then copy this and your username and email Mesanna, see what happens. Can be very brave under a different name. Sad that you cannot play a GAME without having to cheat. But its your life
I have the same username, they won't do anything anyway because they need every subscription possibile and because they know that this game without 3d party programs is simply unplayable in 2020 :)

Whiners gonna whine, players gonna play :heart:
 

Keven2002

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
the day I can no longer use scripts to play will be the day I will leave UO. And will be the same thing for the 90% of the playerbase.

Every CC player I know (but one) uses third party programs, let’s be honest, UO is all about scripting :)
I use CC and while I do use UOA which is approved; I don't use any scripts (I don't think UOA can run scripts or it wouldn't be approved). Unless you count a UOA macro of remounting in the event my sampire gets dismounted. :)
 

Hazel868789

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
They are going to re think the change:

We have read your comments and went back to the drawing board to come up with a fair and reasonable solution to this problem. After we finalize everything we will be putting this on Test Center 1 for everyone to check out. This is not an easy fix that will make everyone happy but we have a few ideas that hit all your concerns. Please stay tuned and we will be letting you guys know more when we have something solid to show you.

As of right now we will be locking this thread and starting a new one when we have the changes in.

Thank all of you for being so passionate about a game we all love!

Mesanna
Please, what was the source of this information?? Thanks

Keep putzing and have a great day.
 

Tjalle

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Supporter
I have the same username, they won't do anything anyway because they need every subscription possibile and because they know that this game without 3d party programs is simply unplayable in 2020 :)

Cheaters gonna cheat, players gonna play :heart:
There. Fixed it for ya.
 

flappy6

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Are you serious? first of all no regular person/average player will get the loot, it is only on the ground for a hour before it disappears......... only possible way will be through some kind of sign hack to know when the house falls, and they know this
 

Ruppy2

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
I think that change is good, but the idoc script bots looking for idocs will now just look for piles of loot on the ground
You mean like findItem CSE_ZGP_ELN or maybe tokens or 2-story statues or gold boxes or jade clocks ...... yeah... no solution here.. move along and stay out of my yard kids and stay in your own lane... smh
 

Draden

Adventurer
I play CC and as well don't use any 3rd party programs or scripts . I do use the macro and to use it place a stack of penny's on the key while mining :)
 

GarthGrey

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I play CC and as well don't use any 3rd party programs or scripts . I do use the macro and to use it place a stack of penny's on the key while mining :)
I was hoping the "stack of pennies" claim would come in, late, but thanks for putting it in.
 

GarthGrey

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I really really hope it's 2 fold, that they're going to Steam and dropping the Classic Client. Both would be Big and Bold moves. Yes, they'll lose all of the Classic Client only players, yes they'll replace them with new Enhanced Client players. Perhaps Bold means the huge gamble they would be taking ? We shall see.
 

Grace of Minoc

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
The new Enhanced Client players would make up for the legions of CC diehards?
They would be as loyal as we have been all these years?

They just need to make it so you can't cheat on either or any client period!

Not a gamble, a death blow.
 

Johnny Black

Adventurer
for those that have no idea you can write scripts on EC and it is all legal!
As most of you might know, the Enhanced Client (EC) comes basically in two parts: a binary core client and a lua UI system (which is basically 95% open to modding). Pinco'sUI pretty much shows how much automating things is possible with plain legal mods.
You take CC away, they will just transfer scripts from A to B and adjust. and we back to zero again.

I dont think they will ever remove CC client, more than 50% of the entire population only play this game bc CC, is a classic game from 90's and CC is the main reason why UO still around, the nostalgia that brings.
They already did a huge gamble making EJ and that was a fail, you do another one and remove CC and doors will be closed.
 

petemage

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
I really really hope it's 2 fold, that they're going to Steam and dropping the Classic Client. Both would be Big and Bold moves. Yes, they'll lose all of the Classic Client only players, yes they'll replace them with new Enhanced Client players. Perhaps Bold means the huge gamble they would be taking ? We shall see.
Any new Gump they released in the last couple years is not utilizing any advanced EC UI at all. Instead they are generic gumps that work on both clients the same and are hardly moddable in the EC (compared to containers, paperdolls, healthbars, etc. pp.). Notorious examples are VS Gump, jewelry box or EJ bank box. They even started adding features CC only lately, like some sound options or this weird auto open body. When they fixed particle effects for EC, the fix was to turn them all off. Supernova(iirc) potions used to look godly in EC. Then they replaced the particle effects with the way lower quality and fps CC effects. They even put that hideous Orc in the newsletter which ofc only CC players recognized as an orc. As a EC player I would have never guessed that it was an Orc sitting on the mount. Idon't feel the EC love at all tbh. Closing the CC seems more off than 5 years ago. It's personally one of the biggest reasons driving me away from UO.
 
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