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NEWS [UO.Com] Updated Publish 81 on TC1

Basara

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Blatantly false. By and large games have been making every effort to simplify. Only here in UO do we have developers waxing poetic about the joys of keeping a binder of hardcopy notes next to the computer in order to know what to wear.

As an example, here is the talent tree for Death Knight in World of Warcraft four years ago:
http://www.wowguideonline.com/images/talents/death-knight-talent-build.jpg

And here is the talent tree for a Death Knight in World of Warcraft right now:
http://reliq.eu/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Mists-of-Pandaria-Talent-Calculator-World-of-Warcraft.png

Notice how that older one has about a ton more crap going on, and how the new one is much simpler? Sorry, but some of us have actually played other games. Telling people "WELL YOU'RE DUMB THEN" isn't actually going to make them like this publish any better, and the verdict that it's too confusing has been loud and clear since it was first posted.
Thank you KLOMP For proving me right.

You can't even counter me by answering my criticism, but only by dragging in a straw man and PRETENDING you have a point.

What do EITHER of those links have to to do with the point I was making? Or the MATH behind the abilities in those links?

The answer is NOTHING. You need to grow up, and realize that throwing up random links unrelated to criticism of you, and expecting people to assume the links are relevant without looking at the, only really applies on Facebook. Maybe you should spend your time there.
 

KLOMP

Sage
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I really want to know why the developers are so determined to keep pushing Refinement. I genuinely cannot think of any other proposed game system that has been received so poorly, or with this level of concern from players regarding imbalance.

Can someone in the office at least have the decency to come out and tell us that we're all totally wrong and that it's going to be awesome? The way they're grimly, stoically, silently dragging Refinement toward the finish line through a hail of rotten vegetables is as irritating as it is baffling.
 

KLOMP

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Practically every other MMO still running is EXTREMELY more complicated than these systems being proposed.
This just isn't true and everyone knows it. Deal with it.

Like no one here has ever played any other MMO before, right? Like if we had, we'd have been even MORE baffled by them, because gosh, every other game is way more complicated than UO!

LOL, whatever man. Sure they are.
 
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RaistlinNowhere

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This just isn't true and everyone knows it. Deal with it.

Like no one here has ever played any other MMO before, right? Like if we had, we'd have been even MORE baffled by them, because gosh, every other game is way more complicated than UO!

LOL, whatever man. Sure they are.

Do you know what theorycrafting is? WOW is the best/worst example of it, as how complicated theorycrafting it has. The only thing that you are saying is that : "Ey dudes, watch this , they dont tell HOW it works , so its simple!!!! "

If you want an answer like that, ill give it to you a simple answer for refinement : "Ey theres a new thing on UO, that you can get hit more times for less damage, or get hit less but heavier damage!!!!! "


I have done some WOW theorycrafting in the past , and let me tell you this, that is a real NIGHTMARE, and this UO thing is a child play in comparison (and i dont mean anything bad for UO, just want to say is different).

If you dont like theorycrafting, dont do it, let other people do it, and w8 for results and thats all, so please , for you and other people complaining, PLEASE , stop crying about how hard or complicated it is or not, and let people who want , do the work.......
 
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KLOMP

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Most of WoW's theorycrafting is restricted to questions like how to kill a raid boss slightly faster, not basic questions of what your armor does and what you should wear. Like did you know WoW also has reforging for armor? Wanna know how their version works?

It allows you to exchange one stat for an equal value of a different stat. The new stat can't be one that's already on the piece, and basic stats like strength and agility can't be reforged.

That's it. Bam. That's the complete documentation for WoW reforging. Two sentences. You now know everything you need in order to use it. No charts, no binders, no reams of notes, no thirty pages of people screaming about how they don't understand it and hate the game, nothing. I could practically describe WoW's entire crafting and customization system in less keystrokes than this publish spends just listing Refinement resist priorities by armor type.
 
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RaistlinNowhere

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This thread is being derailed by irrelevancies. WoW is an entirely different type of game with far less permutations of character and kit to try to balance.
Keep this discussion to UO please.
Im sorry petra, i just tried to make him understand that the theorycrafting behind UO isnt as complicated as others MMORPG out there, but its the same as hitting a wall, so like i tried to d on all other threads about this publish, ill pass on him.

Sorry petra to trying it :next:
 
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KLOMP

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Yeah sorry Petra, but it's like banging your head off a brick wall here. I'll make sure to ignore him from now on.
 

KLOMP

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I just know that I can't remember a previous patch that has made even a generally sober and experienced poster like Radian come in here and semi-rant about how many different flippin' systems the bloody game has. So either we've all just coincidentally gotten dumber at the same time, or there's a problem here.
 

Petra Fyde

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It's complicated - but then so is re-forging. I don't understand any of it. I still don't really understand the whole 'properties' thing way back from the start of AoS. I manage to imbue suits, but I'm never sure whether I've imbued the right things on.
It doesn't stop me playing quite happily. Some people enjoy the complexity, I'm glad the game gives them that enjoyment, but I don't have to understand it to be able to play. Someone who does understand it will advise me what to put on a suit if I ask. Or someone will post something that 'makes the penny drop' and I'll get a grasp on what's possible.
One of Cetric's posts in the other thread has helped me quite a bit.
 

Olahorand

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I really want to know why the developers are so determined to keep pushing Refinement. I genuinely cannot think of any other proposed game system that has been received so poorly, or with this level of concern from players regarding imbalance.

Can someone in the office at least have the decency to come out and tell us that we're all totally wrong and that it's going to be awesome? The way they're grimly, stoically, silently dragging Refinement toward the finish line through a hail of rotten vegetables is as irritating as it is baffling.
This is like the Microsoft with Windows 8 - enforcing the new Start screen and cutting the classic Start menu forcefully, reducing usability of the desktop - likely the same style. (Ignoring customer opinions and request has a great tradition in software industry, so I do not wonder any more about such behavior.)
 
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NuSair

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My fear is that post this far down in the thread get lost.

Points I want to make is that, in general, Bows should out damage Throwing. Due to the extra materials needed (arrows)- the extra weight you are carrying.

Woodland armor SHOULD be better than leather or plate. It's a non-recyclable armor that takes an additional resource (bark) beyond just needing the base material. So, even if it was recyclable it still should be a little better than other armors. But, it's not. If it is going to be completely balanced with other armors, then it needs to be made where it can be recycled and materials returned.

In a similar vein to risk and reward, those that put more into things should get more out. Bows take more resources (arrows) than throwing, so there for should be a little better. Woodland armor takes more time, resources, is MUCH harder to repair and cannot be recycled (also due to the fact that carpentry is limited to 100.0 skill and not 120.0 - and up to 180 with blacksmith). So, those things should inherently be better. Because of all those reasons.
 

CovenantX

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My fear is that post this far down in the thread get lost.

Points I want to make is that, in general, Bows should out damage Throwing. Due to the extra materials needed (arrows)- the extra weight you are carrying.

Woodland armor SHOULD be better than leather or plate. It's a non-recyclable armor that takes an additional resource (bark) beyond just needing the base material. So, even if it was recyclable it still should be a little better than other armors. But, it's not. If it is going to be completely balanced with other armors, then it needs to be made where it can be recycled and materials returned.

In a similar vein to risk and reward, those that put more into things should get more out. Bows take more resources (arrows) than throwing, so there for should be a little better. Woodland armor takes more time, resources, is MUCH harder to repair and cannot be recycled (also due to the fact that carpentry is limited to 100.0 skill and not 120.0 - and up to 180 with blacksmith). So, those things should inherently be better. Because of all those reasons.

Bows will out-damage Throwing, but only if you have a quiver equip. (using the weapons of same speed) Composite Bow vs Soul-glaive.
Throwing still deals damage based on "Sweet-Spot" distance between the thrower and their target.
Bows have an additional 50 free imbuing weight compared to Throwing weapons.
Is the damage difference good enough to justify the need for arrows? probably not, but archery will hit slightly harder, with a much more balanced dps out-put.

Woodland Armor, IS better than leather & plate. because you get free mods on it via enhancing, that you can't get on other types without reforging. plus enhancing reforged woodland armor yields even higher of those mods in some instances.

Reforged + Enhanced Non-woodland armor = up to 5% Hci or DCI. per piece. 1/5 properties still need to have HCI/DCI on your jewels unless you use various artifacts.
Reforged + Enhanced Woodland Armor = up to 10% HCI, DCI, or DI per piece. 1/5 properties much more free space on rings opens up many template options. (skill point increases, mostly)
Even if you don't reforge Woodland armor, you can still end up with pieces that have +5 hci, and have 6/5 properties on your suit if you imbue, then enhance.

Woodland Armor is also better than Dragon Armor, both are not recyclable. but that's where the +1% cap lmc comes in, to better balance it.

Publish 81 balances armor quite well... the only exception MIGHT be refinements. I was just about to test them, and TC was just going down, so I'll try when it comes back up.
 
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NuSair

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I am quite well aware of what woodland armor is (having made ~15 high end suits). My comment was more directed at people saying that woodland armor is over powered and plate/leather needs to be brought up to it's level. IMO, the problem with woodland armor is that it is limited to Elves only (unless you are in factions and wear that earring). The fact that humans cannot wear it is a bigger issue. Humans need access to armor enhancements similar to woodland (ie- a human only armor) or be allowed to wear woodland armor.

You shouldn't have to have a quiver equiped to out damage a throwing weapon with a bow. The 50 extra imbue points? Bleh. Throwing weapons are 1 handed, bows require 2- plus arrows. It really shouldn't even be that close in damage out put. Right now, throwing is far and away better than archery. 1 handed, no extra material requirements, as much damage. And really, that sweet spot stuff is a joke. I play a wraith thrower / TBC thrower / Wraith Archer / ABC archer. Quite well aware of the differences.

Dragon armor is still bad. Not as bad as it was before, but still not good.
 

CovenantX

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I donlt think you can enhance dragonscale. Now that I think about it though I need to see just what the cap for imbuing resist is on dragonscale.
The imbuing cap on all armor is Base resist +15, The base resists do not include exceptional, Arms lore, OR Material bonuses.

Leather = 2/4/3/3/3
Imbued = 17/19/18/18/18

Dragon scale = 3/3/3/3/3
Imbued = 18/18/18/18/18 etc
 

Gheed

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The imbuing cap on all armor is Base resist +15, The base resists do not include exceptional, Arms lore, OR Material bonuses.

Leather = 2/4/3/3/3
Imbued = 17/19/18/18/18

Dragon scale = 3/3/3/3/3
Imbued = 18/18/18/18/18 etc
Just wanted to add a neat little trick with dragonscale. You can break the +15 base resist rule if you craft an exceptional piece where no arms lore bonus falls in the -3 category. Imbuing the -3 resist starts back at 3 base +1 for the first resist point up to 18 resist cap. It negates the -3 penalty entirely. Think of it like imbuing luck on a -100 luck piece. Still though, from my long winded explanation above, it doesnt make it worth fighting hundreds of mobs to make one suit.

Speaking of.... this confuses me... it requires 36 dragon scales to make a chest piece. A dragon/greater dragon is what.... 15-20 times my mass? Why is it I can't cut enough scales from it to cover 1/5th of my chest?
 
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NuSair

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Speaking of.... this confuses me... it requires 36 dragon scales to make a chest piece. A dragon/greater dragon is what.... 15-20 times my mass? Why is it I can't cut enough scales from it to cover 1/5th of my chest?
It depends on where you kill it at. Tram / Fel. Also, Rikktor is a pretty good source of scales.... just sayin...

Fighting and killing a Dragon is going to damage it's scales so that you really can't use them. Also, I figure someone with a random sharp instrument is going to mess up on some of them- making them useless. Then again, maybe that's something they can add to Tailoring... tailoring skill lets you get more hide/scales from creatures... wonder if a harvesters blade and gets more scales from a dragon.
 

Padre Dante

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Questions
  1. Why did Lumberjacks/Carps get no love? No change for wood?
I think it was considered that lumberjack/carpenter's got love when they received the added mods from enhacing. I am taking it as the increased resists from metal, leather, and scales as being an "easier" solution of buffing material enhancing to smiths/tailors. I think it was assumed that LJs/Carps did not need love (in regards to this discussion, specifically - LJ's ability to find wood types, along with carp's getting 120 PSs would be some due love, IMHO).

(following quote edited for space)
honestly, im getting really frustrated with all this. There are so many parts of this publish i'm looking forward to...

make me feel like i'd need to update all my suits for more resist and taking out dci, and now we get to sit here and debate for another who knows how long...

- the new added resists makes all previous suits fairly obsolete...don't do this to people...

did you write Fire Phys Cold Energy Poison on a dart board, yell out VERITE and throw 4 darts? did this process take two weeks?...

wanting to roll out new suits...UGGHHH. Why would i make a new suit and imbue all the weapons when this publish is on the horizon?...

i think this +4 resist crap should come out, anyone who cares about their suits will have to redo them, and that was one of the biggest goals from the beginning, no one wants to redo suits to stay on top of things, it was just giving other armor a use WHICH THE STAM REDUCTION AND LMC DID...
Cetric, I agree with many things you have posted previously, included your points here about getting anxious to move forward with at least some/most of these changes so I can finally get my Sampire's and ABC's new suits built (I also love the Brutus avatar. Go Bucks!).

However, I must say that I respectfully disagree with one of your points - that the +4 resists messed everything up and now all previous suits are scrapped. Why? I imagine most previous suits have the full 70's with all the mods all set up on them. New suits will potentially have less points in imbued resists, allowing for more points in other mods (like MR, SR, Mana+, Stam+). But really, after the changes were announced, I went back to my in-progress armor spreadsheet, applied the new enhanced resist properties, and I managed to squeeze out 2 more MR, 3 more SR, and maybe a 1-2 extra points in Mana for the ABC suit. That was it. A good, and very welcomed change, but not something I would think would make someone go back and totally trash a currently maxxed out suit.

In fact, I went back to the Sampire suit and tried to find a way to get less in imbued resists in the suit, which I did. But it wasn't enough (I think I had to aim for -5 in each imbue (so go from +15 resist to only +10)) in order to gain enough weight to add more MR. I guess I can try to get more Mana or Stam, but it's going to be minimal. The problem is I already burned through a bunch of armor matching the pieces up for imbuing...(still waiting on changes to go live, like you!)

Personally, I am fully on board with the new material bonuses (however, I'm not as versed in Dragon Armor).

I am getting anxious for the weapon updates, stamina reductions, inherent LMC, and material resists boosts to make to Origin and beyond. The HLD/DLC is lost on me (maybe it's mostly a PvP change?), and the refinements...well, I'll just continue to ignore them for the time being...
 

Theo_GL

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It's complicated - but then so is re-forging. I don't understand any of it. I still don't really understand the whole 'properties' thing way back from the start of AoS. I manage to imbue suits, but I'm never sure whether I've imbued the right things on.
It doesn't stop me playing quite happily. Some people enjoy the complexity, I'm glad the game gives them that enjoyment, but I don't have to understand it to be able to play. Someone who does understand it will advise me what to put on a suit if I ask. Or someone will post something that 'makes the penny drop' and I'll get a grasp on what's possible.
One of Cetric's posts in the other thread has helped me quite a bit.
Not everyone enjoys having someone else play the game for them as you do.

The main point here is that in order to try to 'balance' the system -they keep adding complexity that makes it harder and harder to understand. If 10+ year vets like myself are frustrated keeping up (and I'm a crafter first in this game everything else second) then how do you think that makes any new player feel? Any wonder we can't attract new players to the game? Any wonder vets don't come back?

Yes, we do need some balance and to make other armors have a value but not by adding more and more complexity. Runics, Arms Lore Bonus, Material Bonus, Recipes, Runic Bonus, Reforging, Imbuing, Refinement etc is all way too much complexity to understand good armor from bad armor and what you need to fit your template. You can have plenty of choices without adding so much complexity.

More complexity does not equal a better game.

When a was a little one I used to like to play the old board games. I had a copy of Squad Leader. It had about every conceivable part of hand to hand, building to building infantry combat built in. Line of Sight, units breaking, leadership skills, weapon types, atv types etc. It was very very complex and it took an hour to simulate 5 min of real time combat. It was so freaking complex - I gave up and played Axis and Allies and Risk. They were grossly oversimplified but way more enjoyable than the over the top realism that Squad Leader tried to put in the game.

UO has now become squad leader. Way way too complex for the level of enjoyment.

The majority of posters here are trying to stress two things:
1 - We do need armor and weapon rebalancing
2 - Don't do with more complexity - think less

Every single the devs do should be focused on elegant ways to level the balance instead of bolt on, bolt on, bolt on... They don't even have documentation now on all the bolt ons from the past go try looking up crafting on www.uo.com and are trying to add even more crap. Its just that - crap that only a few hard core people will figgure out and use to their advantage. The rest of the UO playerbase will be left with three options :
1) divorce their wives, leave their families, quit their jobs and focus on UO to figgure it out
2) rely on someone else to figgure it out and hope they share their advice (Petra Method)
3) quit the game in favor of something more fun

I don't think any one of those 3 is a good option for the game.
 
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Lord Frodo

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It's complicated - but then so is re-forging. I don't understand any of it. I still don't really understand the whole 'properties' thing way back from the start of AoS. I manage to imbue suits, but I'm never sure whether I've imbued the right things on.
It doesn't stop me playing quite happily. Some people enjoy the complexity, I'm glad the game gives them that enjoyment, but I don't have to understand it to be able to play. Someone who does understand it will advise me what to put on a suit if I ask. Or someone will post something that 'makes the penny drop' and I'll get a grasp on what's possible.
One of Cetric's posts in the other thread has helped me quite a bit.
UOStratics has a nice write=up about the bassics of re-forging and also there are good write-ups in the crafting foruam as well. And guess what, you get to take all that info to a Test Shard and try it all out for free. I as sure there will be the same for refinments when the crafters get it all figured out.
 

Cetric

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I think it was considered that lumberjack/carpenter's got love when they received the added mods from enhacing. I am taking it as the increased resists from metal, leather, and scales as being an "easier" solution of buffing material enhancing to smiths/tailors. I think it was assumed that LJs/Carps did not need love (in regards to this discussion, specifically - LJ's ability to find wood types, along with carp's getting 120 PSs would be some due love, IMHO).

(following quote edited for space)


Cetric, I agree with many things you have posted previously, included your points here about getting anxious to move forward with at least some/most of these changes so I can finally get my Sampire's and ABC's new suits built (I also love the Brutus avatar. Go Bucks!).

However, I must say that I respectfully disagree with one of your points - that the +4 resists messed everything up and now all previous suits are scrapped. Why? I imagine most previous suits have the full 70's with all the mods all set up on them. New suits will potentially have less points in imbued resists, allowing for more points in other mods (like MR, SR, Mana+, Stam+). But really, after the changes were announced, I went back to my in-progress armor spreadsheet, applied the new enhanced resist properties, and I managed to squeeze out 2 more MR, 3 more SR, and maybe a 1-2 extra points in Mana for the ABC suit. That was it. A good, and very welcomed change, but not something I would think would make someone go back and totally trash a currently maxxed out suit.

In fact, I went back to the Sampire suit and tried to find a way to get less in imbued resists in the suit, which I did. But it wasn't enough (I think I had to aim for -5 in each imbue (so go from +15 resist to only +10)) in order to gain enough weight to add more MR. I guess I can try to get more Mana or Stam, but it's going to be minimal. The problem is I already burned through a bunch of armor matching the pieces up for imbuing...(still waiting on changes to go live, like you!)

Personally, I am fully on board with the new material bonuses (however, I'm not as versed in Dragon Armor).

I am getting anxious for the weapon updates, stamina reductions, inherent LMC, and material resists boosts to make to Origin and beyond. The HLD/DLC is lost on me (maybe it's mostly a PvP change?), and the refinements...well, I'll just continue to ignore them for the time being...

I know, older suits aren't completely scrapped, but they are "underpowered" so to speak, because newer ones will be able to run 1-3 mods mods instead of an imbued resist. I think my frusteration with the added resists, is after a few weeks of debating, all of these changes, they just toss this out there, like it is supposed to appease us.
 
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Petra Fyde

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UOStratics has a nice write=up about the bassics of re-forging and also there are good write-ups in the crafting foruam as well. And guess what, you get to take all that info to a Test Shard and try it all out for free. I as sure there will be the same for refinments when the crafters get it all figured out.
yes - did you happen to notice who wrote the uostratics article? Admittedly mostly cribbed from official documents with a few added screenies from test center.
Knowing the basics of what its supposed to do and knowing how to actually get what you want from it aren't the same thing. The only thing I've ever managed to achieve with re-forging is some armour pieces I unravelled as useless and a shield with MR for my mage/bard.
I'd rather imbue, I find it less frustrating.
 

Padre Dante

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I know, older suits aren't completely scrapped, but they are "underpowered" so to speak, because newer ones will be able to run 1-3 mods mods instead of an imbued resist. I think my frusteration with the added resists, is after a few weeks of debating, all of these changes, they just toss this out there, like it is supposed to appease us.

The resists update makes it [potentially!] easier to imbue at a lower weight (i.e. imbuing +10 in a resist, instead of the full +15). In the spreadsheet I updated, I was only able to put more weight into other existing mods (i.e. MR, SR, etc.). It wasn't nearly enough to remove/add entire mods to the suit. I was going to try it with the sampire suit, by removing 1 of 3 Fire resist imbues, but even that was rather difficult.

In other words, I don't think the resist boost is nearly enough to change what mods you imbue, only how much (weight) of each. So instead of imbuing a piece with +15 [say, Fire] resist, 8 Stam, 8 Mana, 8 LMC, and only 1 MR, now you can go [potentially] to +10 resist, 8 Stam, 8 Mana, 8 LMC, and 2 MR.

I hear you, and I think we are close on this. I for one welcome the last minute change. At least it's simple, straight forward, and easy to understand, unlike, refin....but I digress. This is a change, that although thrown in last minute, I think the devs got right. Maybe some tweaks (dragon armor?), but I think it's a great change.
 

chise2

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Just wanted to add a neat little trick with dragonscale. You can break the +15 base resist rule if you craft an exceptional piece where no arms lore bonus falls in the -3 category. Imbuing the -3 resist starts back at 3 base +1 for the first resist point up to 18 resist cap. It negates the -3 penalty entirely. Think of it like imbuing luck on a -100 luck piece. Still though, from my long winded explanation above, it doesnt make it worth fighting hundreds of mobs to make one suit.

Speaking of.... this confuses me... it requires 36 dragon scales to make a chest piece. A dragon/greater dragon is what.... 15-20 times my mass? Why is it I can't cut enough scales from it to cover 1/5th of my chest?
And this is yet another reason they need to increase the amount of scales that dragons and so on drop lol.
 

HP_Zoro_HP

Seasoned Veteran
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Thank you KLOMP For proving me right.

You can't even counter me by answering my criticism, but only by dragging in a straw man and PRETENDING you have a point.

What do EITHER of those links have to to do with the point I was making? Or the MATH behind the abilities in those links?

The answer is NOTHING. You need to grow up, and realize that throwing up random links unrelated to criticism of you, and expecting people to assume the links are relevant without looking at the, only really applies on Facebook. Maybe you should spend your time there.
ok I was going to read the page but saw this and thought...

This is a moderator?

Wow, just wow.
 
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Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
These stood out.

I'm all for the animal form nerf and i have a ninja template. It's basically a get out of jail free card for anyone wanting to invest the points in it. Now it'll take some skill learning how to cast it and not be interrupted. I'll have to learn to adapt to it as will everyone else but it's really just like any other spell...learn the casting time and adapt to when to cast it. I haven't seen much testing with it and i haven't tested myself but you have to figure in if casting focus/protection might factor in.

HLD: Again i disagree. 70DCI is standard on any pvp mage and easily obtained. You have to look at the big picture that we have a feature that's pretty useless unless you're fighting someone without the money to obtain standard equipment. Factor in trying to fight a 70dci wrestle/parry mage and a dexxer MIGHT hit once every 6-7 swings. It's gotten to the point i refuse to even attempt to dexxer a parry mage.
I'm sorry to say, but there's not going to be any "learning of the timing", because you can cast it as you run. So essentially people are going to just mash the button a million times over while they run. And without FC it's going to be sloooooow as hell. Animal Form being interrupt-able, without FC is far too easy to disrupt. Especially considering most of the time someone gets dismounted, it's going to be against several people. Anyone decent player will cast low circle/use a fast weapon (with fireball) and easily keep someone from getting form off. If you don't believe me, actually test it.
I pointed out the weaknesses, and I kill people before they can form, or even after they have formed, all of the time. Animal Form is *NOT* a get out of jail free card. If you dismount someone with a group, they CAN'T remount for a good 10 seconds or so. More than enough time for a small group to get a quick dump off. If you can't kill someone before they have animal formed, you need to consider the possibility that you are just a bad player/group. Even once they do form, it is like fighting a person who can't do anything but chug/heal stone. If you follow that person (which is just as easy as following someone mounted), eventually they are going to un-form to attempt to remount. When considering whether or not Animal Form is overpowered, consider how many people use animal form, and consider how many people *still* dismount regardless. You have people who commit whole templates just for the sake of dismounting. When you look at how often dismounts occur, you might wonder why anyone even bothers to play a template -without- Ninja. The reason? Animal Form is very much beatable. As a matter of fact, now with the Animal Form, you're going to have EVEN MORE people looking to dismount on a regular basis

And in regards to the DCI Nerf/HLD Buff, HLD is not "pretty much uselees." I'd say at LEAST half of mages don't actually have 70 dci. If you actually ask people, and count their DCI, most people have 60-70, while some run with even less than 60 and get facerolled. Only maybe a third of all mage suits actually have 70 dci. If it really was THAT easy, every mage would have 70. I know I would on all of my characters, although unfortunately, i usually have to settle for 60-65. And there's a reason mages stack so much dci in comparison to the other classes. Do you want to know why? Because mage spells are *INTERRUPTABLE.* See that's the one major advantage the other classes have over mages. The damage output of Throwers/Dexxers is so much higher than mages, simply because mages are *interruptable*. Sure, you might actually miss a mage with 70 dci 2-3 hits in a row, but that mage is only going to get two big spells off in that time -tops. When you actually ARE hitting them (especially with hit fireball), there's VERY little that a mage can actually do.
If you were take a thrower/dexxer (lets abbreviate to TD), and a mage, and have them duel. Lets take away the possibility of potions, being that mages and TD can both use them. Now of course the TD wont hit the mage every time, but then again, every time he does, the mage will be interrupted if casting, and maybe even after if hit fireball hits. The mage will do damage when the TD misses, and the TD will do damage when he doesn't miss. If the mage wants to heal, he needs to stop casting offensive spells, to cast defensive spells, and he's probably going to have to, because if he keeps doing offensive damage, his health is going to get low faster than the TD, because the TD (assuming he has another way of healing) CAN heal while he's doing damage... and lets be honest, MOST classes that aren't mages have at least one other way of healing other than pots. The TD has an advantage (even excluding pots) defensively because like I said, the TD can DISRUPT the mage while the TD heals himself. Overall, if you were to add up the total damage done and healed over the course of the fight, the mage is going to do a LOT less than the TD. (Excluding Stealthers, their primary defense in the field are smokebombs and a ton of running) The TD is SUPPOSED to miss a few hits to allow the mage to do damage. As it stands, a mage is at a -MAJOR- disadvantage with anything less than 70 dci. -If you Nerf DCI, or buff HLD and make it where the thrower/dexxer/stealther can hit the mage more often than they ALREADY can, it is severely going to nerf mages harder than *ANY* other nerf in this publish-. Don't believe me? Try rolling a mage with 55 dci right now and see how you get wtfacerolled by ANY decent dexxer/thrower/stealther in the game. As the game stands, your DCI will drop to about the same amount with 55 dci as to where it's going to drop at 70 dci after the update (about 30 dci). If TDS hit mages even more than they do know, it is going to limit the mages casting window even MORE, severely hampering their total Damage and Healing output. But just because 70 DCI might not be too difficult to get, doesn't necessarily mean that it "unbalances" pvp.
Throwers/dexxers/stealthers have an advantage in the example that I gave, and in the field it's even worse. In the field Throwers/Dexxers/and Stealthers can all do damage while running, as well as heal while running, where as mages can not (excluding pots which other classes have as well). Of course mages have the ranged advantage that throwers have, but then again, they need to stop to cast, so that advantage is nullified (especially by abilities like dismount, death strike, nerve strike). Now of course every class has it's perks, for example throwers make for good dismounters, stealthers have deathstrike and nerve strike, and mages have things like fields and other spells; But I'm excluding all of that and comparing the classes at the fundamental manner in which they fight.
Btw, I doubt that a mage having parry alone is going to mean that you miss them 6-7 times in a row on a regular basis. And besides, just because one class might be very difficult for you to hit, does not mean that the dci of EVERY class should be severely nerfed.
 
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spoonyd

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I'm sorry to say, but there's not going to be any "learning of the timing", because you can cast it as you run. So essentially people are going to just mash the button a million times over while they run. And without FC it's going to be sloooooow as hell. Animal Form being interrupt-able, without FC is far too easy to disrupt. Especially considering most of the time someone gets dismounted, it's going to be against several people. Anyone decent will cast low circle/use a fast weapon (with fireball) and easily keep someone from getting form off. If you don't believe me, actually test it.
I pointed out the weaknesses, and I kill people before they can form, or even after they have formed, all of the time. Animal Form is *NOT* a get out of jail free card. If you dismount someone with a group, they CAN'T remount for a good 10 seconds or so. More than enough time for a small group to get a quick dump off. If you can't kill someone before they have animal formed, you need to consider the possibility that you are just a bad player/group. Even once they do form, it is like fighting a person who can't do anything but chug/heal stone. If you follow that person (which is just as easy as following someone mounted), eventually they are going to un-form to attempt to remount. When considering whether or not Animal Form is overpowered, consider how many people use animal form, and consider how many people *still* dismount regardless. You have people who commit whole templates just for the sake of dismounting. When you look at how often dismounts occur, you might wonder why anyone even bothers to play a template -without- Ninja. The reason? Animal Form is very much beatable. As a matter of fact, now with the Animal Form, you're going to have EVEN MORE people looking to dismount on a regular basis

And in regards to the DCI Nerf/HLD Buff, HLD is not "pretty much uselees." I'd say at LEAST half of mages don't actually have 70 dci. If you actually ask people, and count their DCI, most people have 60-70, while some run with even less than 60 and get facerolled. Only maybe a third of all mage suits actually have 70 dci. If it really was THAT easy, every mage would have 70. I know I would on all of my characters, although unfortunately, i usually have to settle for 60-65. And there's a reason mages stack so much dci in comparison to the other classes. Do you want to know why? Because mage spells are *INTERRUPTABLE.* See that's the one major advantage the other classes have over mages. The damage output of Throwers/Dexxers is so much higher than mages, simply because mages are *interruptable*. Sure, you might actually miss a mage with 70 dci 2-3 hits in a row, but that mage is only going to get two big spells off in that time -tops. When you actually ARE hitting them (especially with hit fireball), there's VERY little that a mage can actually do.
If you were take a thrower/dexxer (lets abbreviate to TD), and a mage, and have them duel. Lets take away the possibility of potions, being that mages and TD can both use them. Now of course the TD wont hit the mage every time, but then again, every time he does, the mage will be interrupted if casting, and maybe even after if hit fireball hits. The mage will do damage when the TD misses, and the TD will do damage when he doesn't miss. If the mage wants to heal, he needs to stop casting offensive spells, to cast defensive spells, and he's probably going to have to, because if he keeps doing offensive damage, his health is going to get low faster than the TD, because the TD (assuming he has another way of healing) CAN heal while he's doing damage... and lets be honest, MOST classes that aren't mages have at least one other way of healing other than pots. The TD has an advantage (even excluding pots) defensively because like I said, the TD can DISRUPT the mage while the TD heals himself. Overall, if you were to add up the total damage done and healed over the course of the fight, the mage is going to do a LOT less than the TD. (Excluding Stealthers, their primary defense in the field are smokebombs and a ton of running) The TD is SUPPOSED to miss a few hits to allow the mage to do damage. As it stands, a mage is at a -MAJOR- disadvantage with anything less than 70 dci. -If you Nerf DCI, or buff HLD and make it where the thrower/dexxer/stealther can hit the mage more often than they ALREADY can, it is severely going to nerf mages harder than *ANY* other nerf in this publish-. Don't believe me? Try rolling a mage with 55 dci right now and see how you get wtfacerolled by ANY decent dexxer/thrower/stealther in the game. As the game stands, your DCI will drop to about the same amount with 55 dci as to where it's going to drop at 70 dci after the update (about 30 dci). If TDS hit mages even more than they do know, it is going to limit the mages casting window even MORE, severely hampering their total Damage and Healing output. But just because 70 DCI might not be too difficult to get, doesn't necessarily mean that it "unbalances" pvp.
Throwers/dexxers/stealthers have an advantage in the example that I gave, and in the field it's even worse. In the field Throwers/Dexxers/and Stealthers can all do damage while running, as well as heal while running, where as mages can not (excluding pots which other classes have as well). Of course mages have the ranged advantage that throwers have, but then again, they need to stop to cast, so that advantage is nullified (especially by abilities like dismount, death strike, nerve strike). Now of course every class has it's perks, for example throwers make for good dismounters, stealthers have deathstrike and nerve strike, and mages have things like fields and other spells; But I'm excluding all of that and comparing the classes at the fundamental manner in which they fight.
Btw, I doubt that a mage having parry alone is going to mean that you miss them 6-7 times in a row on a regular basis. And besides, just because one class might be very difficult for you to hit, does not mean that the dci of EVERY class should be severely nerfed.
Wow finally someone on the boards that has a FIRM grasp of how PvP works! I can't wait to see how he get flamed for being accurate in his interpretation of current PvP.
 

Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
I have another proposal. Being the developers/moderators seem content on severely nerfing animal form (hence also making the dismount the single most powerful ability in the game, and nearly impossible to survive), can we alter the way in which balls of summoning operate? Can we change the speed of summoning a pet to be determined by the amount of pet slots that that pet takes up? In other words, have it take half a second to summon a pet for each pet slot that it takes up. For example, a pet that takes up one slot would be the equivalent of casting a second circle spell, where as a pet that takes up 5 slots would take 2.5 seconds (slightly longer than a circle 8 spell). This would make it easier for people to summon weaker pets, while maintaining the regular cast time for stronger pets; giving people (of ALL classes) in pvp some kind of chance to survive a dismount, while keeping tamers from having the ability to spam summon. It will not be "overpowered" (aside from the fact that I argued before, that a remount could never possibly be more overpowered than a dismount considering it's a *REACTIONARY RESPONSE*) but also because In pvp people will have the ability to poison, paralyze, kill your pet; and it will still have a cast time and be disruptable. This is a reasonable request, and I think most people will agree with this.
 
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Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
These stood out.

I'm all for the animal form nerf and i have a ninja template. It's basically a get out of jail free card for anyone wanting to invest the points in it. Now it'll take some skill learning how to cast it and not be interrupted. I'll have to learn to adapt to it as will everyone else but it's really just like any other spell...learn the casting time and adapt to when to cast it. I haven't seen much testing with it and i haven't tested myself but you have to figure in if casting focus/protection might factor in.

HLD: Again i disagree. 70DCI is standard on any pvp mage and easily obtained. You have to look at the big picture that we have a feature that's pretty useless unless you're fighting someone without the money to obtain standard equipment. Factor in trying to fight a 70dci wrestle/parry mage and a dexxer MIGHT hit once every 6-7 swings. It's gotten to the point i refuse to even attempt to dexxer a parry mage.
BTW, can you AT LEAST agree that Animal Form should not be DOUBLE nerfed? Personally, I don't think it should be nerfed at all, but would you agree that making it disruptable is enough of a nerf, and that the FC of the spell should not ALSO be nerfed? I think that most people would agree that they're taking it one step too far. Being disruptable with FC will give groups even MORE time than they already have to dump the person before they even have a *chance* of casting animal form. To convince you, we can go on TC, and I'll dismount you while you try and animal form, and I'll show you how useless it will be without FC. At least with FC you will have a chance of getting it off, and it will not be completely useless, but at the same time, it will not be as easy to get off as it is, to the point where some people think it's "overpowered." I think that's reasonable. Can you at least agree to that?
 
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KLOMP

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Don't believe me? Try rolling a mage with 55 dci right now and see how you get wtfacerolled by ANY decent dexxer/thrower/stealther in the game. As the game stands, your DCI will drop to about the same amount with 55 dci as to where it's going to drop at 70 dci after the update (about 30 dci).
As I understand it, a mage who has been hit with HLD will be at an effective 20 DCI in the upcoming publish, regardless of whether he has 45 DCI on his suit or a million. These latest changes removed the ability to overcap but left HLD ramped up to 55% of DCI.

Not that this changes your point any. :oops:
 

spoonyd

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
As I understand it, a mage who has been hit with HLD will be at an effective 20 DCI in the upcoming publish, regardless of whether he has 45 DCI on his suit or a million. These latest changes removed the ability to overcap but left HLD ramped up to 55% of DCI.

Not that this changes your point any. :oops:
So at some point I'm looking to see if anyone understands how much of a mage killing patch this really is. At least if you're on foot as a dexxer you can use aids on the run. As a mage you try to cast a heal while everyone pounds you. :stretcher:

Oh yeah and your DCI is 20 so no dexxer is missing you.
 
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Lythos-

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I'm sorry to say, but there's not going to be any "learning of the timing", because you can cast it as you run. So essentially people are going to just mash the button a million times over while they run. And without FC it's going to be sloooooow as hell. Animal Form being interrupt-able, without FC is far too easy to disrupt. Especially considering most of the time someone gets dismounted, it's going to be against several people. Anyone decent player will cast low circle/use a fast weapon (with fireball) and easily keep someone from getting form off. If you don't believe me, actually test it.
I pointed out the weaknesses, and I kill people before they can form, or even after they have formed, all of the time. Animal Form is *NOT* a get out of jail free card. If you dismount someone with a group, they CAN'T remount for a good 10 seconds or so. More than enough time for a small group to get a quick dump off. If you can't kill someone before they have animal formed, you need to consider the possibility that you are just a bad player/group. Even once they do form, it is like fighting a person who can't do anything but chug/heal stone. If you follow that person (which is just as easy as following someone mounted), eventually they are going to un-form to attempt to remount. When considering whether or not Animal Form is overpowered, consider how many people use animal form, and consider how many people *still* dismount regardless. You have people who commit whole templates just for the sake of dismounting. When you look at how often dismounts occur, you might wonder why anyone even bothers to play a template -without- Ninja. The reason? Animal Form is very much beatable. As a matter of fact, now with the Animal Form, you're going to have EVEN MORE people looking to dismount on a regular basis
I'm going to have to split this up to reply since it's so much.

"Without FC" -- That alone tells me you invest just enough points to form, to get away.

Your whole response is contradicting. If current animal form was so beatable, like you said yourself, i can just look at how many people have enough points to form. If the current dismount timer was in fact enough time to kill someone, then every mystic mage, thrower i see wouldn't be running with just enough points to no fail llama form.

When i said learn the timing, it will be like learning to time that greater heal through a magic arrow. There should be plenty of time to form though an xplo, plague or any other large spell dump.

I've already stated numerous ways to counter this. Fields, conflags, bolas. People need to pull up their big boy pants and accept you guys might just have to die a little bit in pvp.


And in regards to the DCI Nerf/HLD Buff, HLD is not "pretty much uselees." I'd say at LEAST half of mages don't actually have 70 dci. If you actually ask people, and count their DCI, most people have 60-70, while some run with even less than 60 and get facerolled. Only maybe a third of all mage suits actually have 70 dci. If it really was THAT easy, every mage would have 70. I know I would on all of my characters, although unfortunately, i usually have to settle for 60-65. And there's a reason mages stack so much dci in comparison to the other classes. Do you want to know why? Because mage spells are *INTERRUPTABLE.* See that's the one major advantage the other classes have over mages. The damage output of Throwers/Dexxers is so much higher than mages, simply because mages are *interruptable*. Sure, you might actually miss a mage with 70 dci 2-3 hits in a row, but that mage is only going to get two big spells off in that time -tops. When you actually ARE hitting them (especially with hit fireball), there's VERY little that a mage can actually do.
If you were take a thrower/dexxer (lets abbreviate to TD), and a mage, and have them duel. Lets take away the possibility of potions, being that mages and TD can both use them. Now of course the TD wont hit the mage every time, but then again, every time he does, the mage will be interrupted if casting, and maybe even after if hit fireball hits. The mage will do damage when the TD misses, and the TD will do damage when he doesn't miss. If the mage wants to heal, he needs to stop casting offensive spells, to cast defensive spells, and he's probably going to have to, because if he keeps doing offensive damage, his health is going to get low faster than the TD, because the TD (assuming he has another way of healing) CAN heal while he's doing damage... and lets be honest, MOST classes that aren't mages have at least one other way of healing other than pots. The TD has an advantage (even excluding pots) defensively because like I said, the TD can DISRUPT the mage while the TD heals himself. Overall, if you were to add up the total damage done and healed over the course of the fight, the mage is going to do a LOT less than the TD. (Excluding Stealthers, their primary defense in the field are smokebombs and a ton of running) The TD is SUPPOSED to miss a few hits to allow the mage to do damage. As it stands, a mage is at a -MAJOR- disadvantage with anything less than 70 dci. -If you Nerf DCI, or buff HLD and make it where the thrower/dexxer/stealther can hit the mage more often than they ALREADY can, it is severely going to nerf mages harder than *ANY* other nerf in this publish-. Don't believe me? Try rolling a mage with 55 dci right now and see how you get wtfacerolled by ANY decent dexxer/thrower/stealther in the game. As the game stands, your DCI will drop to about the same amount with 55 dci as to where it's going to drop at 70 dci after the update (about 30 dci). If TDS hit mages even more than they do know, it is going to limit the mages casting window even MORE, severely hampering their total Damage and Healing output. But just because 70 DCI might not be too difficult to get, doesn't necessarily mean that it "unbalances" pvp.
Throwers/dexxers/stealthers have an advantage in the example that I gave, and in the field it's even worse. In the field Throwers/Dexxers/and Stealthers can all do damage while running, as well as heal while running, where as mages can not (excluding pots which other classes have as well). Of course mages have the ranged advantage that throwers have, but then again, they need to stop to cast, so that advantage is nullified (especially by abilities like dismount, death strike, nerve strike). Now of course every class has it's perks, for example throwers make for good dismounters, stealthers have deathstrike and nerve strike, and mages have things like fields and other spells; But I'm excluding all of that and comparing the classes at the fundamental manner in which they fight.
Btw, I doubt that a mage having parry alone is going to mean that you miss them 6-7 times in a row on a regular basis. And besides, just because one class might be very difficult for you to hit, does not mean that the dci of EVERY class should be severely nerfed.
It IS that easy to have 70dci. I've ran 70 on every mage and dexxer i've had since SA went live. I've seen a few mages that don't have 70, but that goes right back to the hpr mystics squeezing enough points for animal form.

Don't just doubt my findings on a HLD proof parry mage, test it out yourself on a non thrower. They're next to impossible to do any real damage to in an honorable situation. Even in a dexxer gank, it takes forever to take one down.

Right now, i do dislike the proposed change to HLD. However i do strongly feel it shouldn't be totally negated by stacking dci.
 

G.v.P

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Enhance, Imbue, Reforge, I mean give me a flipping break here. How many bloody crafting systems does one game need to improve upon existing items. I'm still confused about what reforging is. I think this game has officially given me a crafting headache.

And regardless of "now reforgable," there remains a huge discrepancy in how Dragon Armor functions as crafted. Yes, I saw the example with 19 Fire across many pieces of red Dragon Armor... I still have a headache. heh
Did you see my post regarding Dragon Armor base resists?
http://stratics.com/community/threads/uo-com-updated-publish-81-on-tc1.295967/page-2#post-2248403

Re-forging is very simple. Before re-forging, we would roll a material bonus until we got the desired resists, like say a Barbed Leather tunic with 16 energy resist, which is kind of rare. Then we would add powder of fort to put the tunic to 255 dur. After that, we would imbue properties. Re-forging adds two steps. First, you create a base, without the material bonus. You craft, say, a Leather tunic, then you re-forge a mod class, say Mystic/of Sorcery, and hope for Mana Regen 3. Once you get MR 3, you then attempt to enhance the tunic with a material, such as Barbed. Then you powder and imbue.

Before imbuing you would make something like 16/18/12/10/14 (70) with 20 LRC, 8 LMC, 2 MR. With re-forging you can make something like 9/18/10/9/8 (55) with 20 LRC, 8 LMC, 3 MR, and 3 STR (meh, it enhanced the one with STR, so I went with it, lol). It's much less costly to create items the old imbue route but the potential of reforging to, say, add +6 MR to a suit, is worth the time.
http://uo2.stratics.com/items/runic-re-forging
 

Lythos-

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
BTW, can you AT LEAST agree that Animal Form should not be DOUBLE nerfed? Personally, I don't think it should be nerfed at all, but would you agree that making it disruptable is enough of a nerf, and that the FC of the spell should not ALSO be nerfed? I think that most people would agree that they're taking it one step too far. Being disruptable with FC will give groups even MORE time than they already have to dump the person before they even have a *chance* of casting animal form. To convince you, we can go on TC, and I'll dismount you while you try and animal form, and I'll show you how useless it will be without FC. At least with FC you will have a chance of getting it off, and it will not be completely useless, but at the same time, it will not be as easy to get off as it is, to the point where some people think it's "overpowered." I think that's reasonable. Can you at least agree to that?
Why would i agree form shouldn't be double nerfed when i personally made the feedback to hardcap the speed?

I made my case with feedback and undoubtly the powers that be agreed with my logic. I did suggest to slightly increase the casting speed but that didn't make it and it's no big deal. The only people that think a hardcap is too much are the people that don't actually have a full ninja template on their pvp roster. I have one and im not complaining one bit.

Before you start about a dexxer can heal on the run, the full ninja template has been nerfed so hard over the years that the only forms of healing we have are confidence while we wait on the pot timer to reset. A mage with multiple forms of healing (stone,mini heals,hpr suits) should not automatically have an advantage with a spell in a skill they only use for defensive getaways over a character who actually utilizes the full template at an extreme disadvantage as is.
 

Rumpy

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
The imbuing cap on all armor is Base resist +15, The base resists do not include exceptional, Arms lore, OR Material bonuses.

Leather = 2/4/3/3/3
Imbued = 17/19/18/18/18

Dragon scale = 3/3/3/3/3
Imbued = 18/18/18/18/18 etc
Whats weird is those caps differ depending on armor piece. Elven Leather Armor has different maxes then normal leather.


I say just increase imbue cap and move on w/ life.
 

chise2

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
With a set 55% drop in DCI, why not continue to allow overcapping? Hell, someone with 70% DCI then would drop to 32% and still be gravely effected by HLD.

Id advocate for changing it to halving DCI by 50% instead of 55% (easier calculation in your head, easier to explain to non-power gamer players "hld cuts your defence chance in half") and allow overcapping if you want. You would have to get to 90DCI before you would completely overcap dci, and if you wanted to do that, more power to you, your suit would be dedicated to resisting hit lower defense then.
Yeah I think this would be a much better solution and wouldn;t screw everyone that didnt/couldn;t use refinements. Personally I would probably do something between 45-50% But 50% would be the easiest to understand. Refinements just need to be scrapped for now at least. I am not opposed to the system totally I like the general idea of give up one thing to get another but the way it works currently is not good.

However like I said if they absolutely insist on refinements this patch *I really hope they don;t most players seem to not want it in* They need to let meddable armor types including mage armor be refineable.
 

G.v.P

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Whats weird is those caps differ depending on armor piece. Elven Leather Armor has different maxes then normal leather.
Elven leather armor does not follow a 2/4/3/3/3 base, but a 2/3/2/4/4 base, which is why there are different imbue maximums. Likewise, gargish leather armor has a 5/6/7/6/6 base (twice the total resists). It's all about the base.
 

Lore Denin (GL)

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
However like I said if they absolutely insist on refinements this patch *I really hope they don;t most players seem to not want it in* They need to let meddable armor types including mage armor be refineable.
I think we started focusing on the details so much that we are not talking about the Elephant in the room and that is allowing anyone to have a effective Defense chance over the current 45 pvp cap. People thought the 5 HCI advantage a Garg thrower had was big, imagine a Defense chance 50 points higher then your 45 HCI cap. So unbalanced you will need to hit the HLD effect, just to make it even with your max'd out HCI. [Please don't start suggesting we make HCI cap 95... what a mess this would all become.]

The bottomline a characters effective cap in pvp can not be more then 45. If you want to allow 95 in pvm, to balance out the monsters I guess that works.(I'd rather adjust the monsters then create two systems of combat ala Enemy of One but at least it would not ruin the balance of pvp).

If you want refinement to work in pvp, it should be the way people can add DCI over the cap to reduce negative spell effects but not change a characters max DCI over 45.

Then if you want people to use anything other then non-med armor you have to allow the refinement of med armor or have med armor pre-refined... inherent 10 to DCI cap. If you want to be stingy have an all med suit have max resists of 65 across the board. (Each piece would be max refined DCI 10, max lower resists 5).

It does make sense that leather would not be as protective as plate but also easier to move and dodge in, hence harder to hit.

I really hoped the Refinements could be included because I think the crafting system is interesting but until there is a reponse from the Dev's or change in the current Publish 81 that demonstrates an understanding of the issues it will create as it is now, I can't support it moving forward.

The fixes are simple, so a quick word or update to the publish is all it would take to get me and probably most players back on board.
-Effective DCI capped at 45
-DCI can be overcapped using refinement
-All Armor is Refinable
-HLD takes 55% of your current DCI up to your overcap

Thanks for reading what has already been said but something I fear will make it onto Origin unless it is clearly understood and heard.

-Lore's Player
 

Lore Denin (GL)

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
BTW, can you AT LEAST agree that Animal Form should not be DOUBLE nerfed? Personally, I don't think it should be nerfed at all, but would you agree that making it disruptable is enough of a nerf, and that the FC of the spell should not ALSO be nerfed? I think that most people would agree that they're taking it one step too far. Being disruptable with FC will give groups even MORE time than they already have to dump the person before they even have a *chance* of casting animal form. To convince you, we can go on TC, and I'll dismount you while you try and animal form, and I'll show you how useless it will be without FC. At least with FC you will have a chance of getting it off, and it will not be completely useless, but at the same time, it will not be as easy to get off as it is, to the point where some people think it's "overpowered." I think that's reasonable. Can you at least agree to that?
I 'd argue and maybe Lythos would agree that FC should continue to effect animal form but its casting time should be slowed by 2 tics so that a non dedicated ninja with FC2, casts it as a the current speed and that a truly dedicated ninja with fc3 or fc4 would cast it faster and would be rewarded for his/her dedication to the craft.

Questions from a non ninja player to a Mage/Ninja... does Protection, prevent animal form interuption? If so, that's an easy way out. If not you still have walls of stone, teleport, invis, invis pots, are other means I've seen mages escape dismount deaths. Is mirror image still effective at removing targets?

Can we change the speed of summoning a pet to be determined by the amount of pet slots that that pet takes up? In other words, have it take half a second to summon a pet for each pet slot that it takes up. For example, a pet that takes up one slot would be the equivalent of casting a second circle spell, where as a pet that takes up 5 slots would take 2.5 seconds (slightly longer than a circle 8 spell). This would make it easier for people to summon weaker pets, while maintaining the regular cast time for stronger pets; giving people (of ALL classes) in pvp some kind of chance to survive a dismount, while keeping tamers from having the ability to spam summon. It will not be "overpowered" (aside from the fact that I argued before, that a remount could never possibly be more overpowered than a dismount considering it's a *REACTIONARY RESPONSE*) but also because In pvp people will have the ability to poison, paralyze, kill your pet; and it will still have a cast time and be disruptable. This is a reasonable request, and I think most people will agree with this.
Revan, I do like your idea of using pet balls to summon weaker animals faster. Not sure I agree on how fast you can summon them unless pet summoning is also interuptable but I don't play a tamer, never had a pet ball so am not sure how slow the process is currently.

I can see summoning a low level pet in the amount of time it takes to wait out the dismount timer. That seems like a reasonable and balanced fix to the general dismount problem. It would defintely give more options for players and we'd likely see more templates in pvp. If that is the current speed (or close), it will give me, a non-mage, non ninja who likes fighting in large battles another option when dismounted. Thanks,

-Lore's Player
 
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Cetric

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I think we started focusing on the details so much that we are not talking about the Elephant in the room and that is allowing anyone to have a effective Defense chance over the current 45 pvp cap. People thought the 5 HCI advantage a Garg thrower had was big, imagine a Defense chance 50 points higher then your 45 HCI cap. So unbalanced you will need to hit the HLD effect, just to make it even with your max'd out HCI. [Please don't start suggesting we make HCI cap 95... what a mess this would all become.]

The bottomline a characters effective cap in pvp can not be more then 45.

well said
 

Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
As I understand it, a mage who has been hit with HLD will be at an effective 20 DCI in the upcoming publish, regardless of whether he has 45 DCI on his suit or a million. These latest changes removed the ability to overcap but left HLD ramped up to 55% of DCI.

Not that this changes your point any. :oops:
This even FURTHER argues my point. Not a single person looking at this change from an unbias perspective can POSSIBLY agree with it. Do you have any idea what it's it like fighting a dexxer/thrower/stealther on a mage with 45 DCI - dropped to 20?!? This update is not just a mage nerf, it's a MAGE SLAYER. It's COMPLETELY ABSURD. Who the hell is calling for mage nerfs anyway? Who is calling for these changes? I'm guessing not a single one of them actually plays a mage in fel. They (assuming "they" exist), as well as the dev's incorporating this change, are *COMPLETELY OUT OF TOUCH* with Ultima Online PvP! All of you who don't play mages and know how ridiculous this change is, needs to man up and call this update out for what it is. You ALL know this is B.S. SPEAK UP.
 
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Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
I 'd argue and maybe Lythos would agree that FC should continue to effect animal form but its casting time should be slowed by 2 tics so that a non dedicated ninja with FC2, casts it as a the current speed and that a truly dedicated ninja with fc3 or fc4 would cast it faster and would be rewarded for his/her dedication to the craft.

Questions from a non ninja player to a Mage/Ninja... does Protection, prevent animal form interuption? If so, that's an easy way out. If not you still have walls of stone, teleport, invis, invis pots, are other means I've seen mages escape dismount deaths. Is mirror image still effective at removing targets?



Revan, I do like your idea of using pet balls to summon weaker animals faster. Not sure I agree on how fast you can summon them unless pet summoning is also interuptable but I don't play a tamer, never had a pet ball so am not sure how slow the process is currently.

I can see summoning a low level pet in the amount of time it takes to wait out the dismount timer. That seems like a reasonable and balanced fix to the general dismount problem. It would defintely give more options for players and we'd likely see more templates in pvp. If that is the current speed (or close), it will give me, a non-mage, non ninja who likes fighting in large battles another option when dismounted. Thanks,

-Lore's Player
Protection is still hard to get off in a gank, and leaves you at significant disadvantages. For example, you can be paralyzed, poisoned easily, and mana vamped. And that's besides the fact that casting it is too can be difficult to get off. The abilities you named are possible if you're versing a really bad group, but your chance of survival against an even half decent group will still be next to none.

It's currently interruptable and slightly longer than a circle 8 spell. I'm proposing that it still be interruptable, but that weaker pets will summon faster (half a second per pet slot sounds reasonable). Thank You for your support.
 
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Lythos-

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I 'd argue and maybe Lythos would agree that FC should continue to effect animal form but its casting time should be slowed by 2 tics so that a non dedicated ninja with FC2, casts it as a the current speed and that a truly dedicated ninja with fc3 or fc4 would cast it faster and would be rewarded for his/her dedication to the craft.

Questions from a non ninja player to a Mage/Ninja... does Protection, prevent animal form interuption? If so, that's an easy way out. If not you still have walls of stone, teleport, invis, invis pots, are other means I've seen mages escape dismount deaths. Is mirror image still effective at removing targets?



Revan, I do like your idea of using pet balls to summon weaker animals faster. Not sure I agree on how fast you can summon them unless pet summoning is also interuptable but I don't play a tamer, never had a pet ball so am not sure how slow the process is currently.

I can see summoning a low level pet in the amount of time it takes to wait out the dismount timer. That seems like a reasonable and balanced fix to the general dismount problem. It would defintely give more options for players and we'd likely see more templates in pvp. If that is the current speed (or close), it will give me, a non-mage, non ninja who likes fighting in large battles another option when dismounted. Thanks,

-Lore's Player
Personally, i didn't ask for an animal form nerf but since they're determined for it all we can do it make the best out of it where it's fair for everyone.

I'd rather just leave a hardcap on casting speed but decrease casting time equal to FC1.

With FC2, animal form takes about the same amount of time to cast as a harm. Meanwhile, people that play actual ninjas are left hurting since there's really no room at all for any FC. I don't think it would be fair at all to give someone a boost just for 1 defensive spell while nerfing people that actually use the whole template.

We already had the short pet ball timer with swamp dragons everywhere. It didn't work hence why we have the interuptable ones of today. I'm not against shortening the timer slightly but to make it as fast as a weaken or harm would put us right back where we are today.
 

Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Why would i agree form shouldn't be double nerfed when i personally made the feedback to hardcap the speed?

I made my case with feedback and undoubtly the powers that be agreed with my logic. I did suggest to slightly increase the casting speed but that didn't make it and it's no big deal. The only people that think a hardcap is too much are the people that don't actually have a full ninja template on their pvp roster. I have one and im not complaining one bit.

Before you start about a dexxer can heal on the run, the full ninja template has been nerfed so hard over the years that the only forms of healing we have are confidence while we wait on the pot timer to reset. A mage with multiple forms of healing (stone,mini heals,hpr suits) should not automatically have an advantage with a spell in a skill they only use for defensive getaways over a character who actually utilizes the full template at an extreme disadvantage as is.
Oh, so you're the S.O.B. trying to push all of this nonsense? lol. I wish I had read your original posts... you can send me a shortcut if you'd like... " I did suggest to slightly increase the casting speed but that didn't make it and it's no big deal." "No Big Deal?" lol. You've already convinced the devs to make it interruptable and not affected by FC, of course increasing the cast speed is "not a big deal." It's ALL READY GETTING NERFED TO SH*T!

Second point, "The only people that think a hardcap is too much are the people that don't actually have a full ninja template on their pvp roster." -Wrong. I have a stealther on every shard, I've been playing stealthers since T2A. I've been playing mages for two years (and I didn't play for the better part of a year). And Yes... my ninja's all have ninjitsu... So I know enough to also state that a stealthers primary defense is not the same as the other templates. It's something the other classes don't have... can you guess? STEALTH! YES! SMOKEBOMBS! Quite possibly the easiest "get away" tactic in the game. You don't have to tell me, I am a stealther! And you said, "Before you start about a dexxer can heal on the run, the full ninja template has been nerfed so hard over the years that the only forms of healing we have are confidence while we wait on the pot timer to reset. A mage with multiple forms of healing (stone,mini heals,hpr suits) should not automatically have an advantage with a spell in a skill they only use for defensive getaways over a character who actually utilizes the full template at an extreme disadvantage as is." Sorry, but I'm about to "start about [how] a dexxer can heal on the run." want to know why? MAGES CAN'T! The heal stone essentially takes the place of a heal potion, and stealthers have heal potions too. HPR I have on my stealthers as well, so the notion that potions(/healstones) and HPR are unique to mages is FALSE. Casting mini heal, is not on the run. Confidence is on the run. Smoke Bombs + Confidence > mini heals. And "A mage should not automatically have an advantage with a spell in a skill they only use for defensive getaways over a character who actually utilizes the full template at an extreme disadvantage as is." Why not? first off, if a mage is willing to invest 80 skill points in ninjitsu just for ONE ability as a *REACTIONARY RESPONSE* to a dismount (An already OVERPOWERED move), Why should they be denied that ability? That's the point of investing in another skill. It doesn't mean you're a mage ABUSING another skill, it means you are INCORPORATING that skill into your template. There's NOTHING wrong with that in UO. If a mage invested in Chivalry points, would it they be considered a Chivalry mage? Or would you accuse them of ABUSING Chivalry for just a few spells? Only someone with some angry underlying agenda would hide behind an excuse like that.
 
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Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Personally, i didn't ask for an animal form nerf but since they're determined for it all we can do it make the best out of it where it's fair for everyone.

I'd rather just leave a hardcap on casting speed but decrease casting time equal to FC1.

With FC2, animal form takes about the same amount of time to cast as a harm. Meanwhile, people that play actual ninjas are left hurting since there's really no room at all for any FC. I don't think it would be fair at all to give someone a boost just for 1 defensive spell while nerfing people that actually use the whole template.

We already had the short pet ball timer with swamp dragons everywhere. It didn't work hence why we have the interuptable ones of today. I'm not against shortening the timer slightly but to make it as fast as a weaken or harm would put us right back where we are today.
I see what you mean now by reducing casting speed. By the way you worded it in your last post, it seemed like you meant to increase it, Yes I agree with that. it would make it easier for ANYONE using the ninja template to animal form, while still keeping it disruptable. Still a ridiculous nerf in my opinion, but at least a balanced approach to keep most people happy.

No, because as I said, the pet ball would still be interruptable. You can also increase the cast time per pet that you already have summoned, to avoid having pets all over felluca. In other words, make the first pet half a second, and the second pet a second long. That would be like interrupting a greater heal; not hard. Third pet a second and a half and so on. Then people would stick to their first pet unless it's already dead.
 
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Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
I'm going to have to split this up to reply since it's so much.

"Without FC" -- That alone tells me you invest just enough points to form, to get away.

Your whole response is contradicting. If current animal form was so beatable, like you said yourself, i can just look at how many people have enough points to form. If the current dismount timer was in fact enough time to kill someone, then every mystic mage, thrower i see wouldn't be running with just enough points to no fail llama form.

When i said learn the timing, it will be like learning to time that greater heal through a magic arrow. There should be plenty of time to form though an xplo, plague or any other large spell dump.

I've already stated numerous ways to counter this. Fields, conflags, bolas. People need to pull up their big boy pants and accept you guys might just have to die a little bit in pvp.




It IS that easy to have 70dci. I've ran 70 on every mage and dexxer i've had since SA went live. I've seen a few mages that don't have 70, but that goes right back to the hpr mystics squeezing enough points for animal form.

Don't just doubt my findings on a HLD proof parry mage, test it out yourself on a non thrower. They're next to impossible to do any real damage to in an honorable situation. Even in a dexxer gank, it takes forever to take one down.

Right now, i do dislike the proposed change to HLD. However i do strongly feel it shouldn't be totally negated by stacking dci.
Just because a lot of mystic mages run Ninjitsu for animal form, doesn't mean it's unbeatable. Running Animal form is the difference between a 10% chance, and a 25-75% chance of surviving a dismount (depending on the skill of the group you're fighting). Of course people are going to run it if they would otherwise have next to no chance of surviving a dismount. It doesn't mean it's unbeatable.
And like I said, No, there will be no learning of the timing. Learning timing is something that is required when you have to *Stop to Cast.* If you can cast WHILE you run, there is no need to "learn the timing" because you can just spam a key until it works. However, at it's current speed, you will most likely smash it until you die; and say to yourself, Why do still have 80 ninja on my template again? Oh yeah, because it used to actually be effective... until someone cried that it's somehow "Abusing the Ninja template." And God Forbid anyone should ever ABUSE THE NINJA TEMPLATE, Tinkerbelle's light would go out, and she'd die. And no, it won't be as simple as casting it through an Explo-spell plague, because any pvper with half a brain will know that Animal Form is disruptable, and keep the disrupts coming fast.
 
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