Yep, now take away parry and account for spell interruption and then tell me the damage out put.
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That's a wash, any template can use these
Its not a wash considering most dexxer templates don't have room to run alchemy actually
You don't need alchemy to use either of these, and a lot of mages do not have room without giving something up.
120 Mage
120 eval
120 resist
120 wrestle/anat
120 med
120 parry
I think what is trying to be put across is, you shouldn't have to play a fully defensed mage in order to compete with the ridiculous barrage of mortal and moving shot. Ranged dexxers need a nerf and so does parts of the parry mage that is overpowered. The new loot makes playing a dexxer almost afk-able. The only response to it is to play a fully defensed parry mage or a chiv parry char of sorts. People should be able to compete with any template they come up with not just two or three cookie cutter (flavor of the latest patch templates) . And med is def not needed in pvp unless you are planning to duel someone.
To complete the math for covenant,
Archer vs parry Mage they're going to hit 1 out of 3 shots, meaning 2.64 hits out of 10 seconds or 132
Damage at 50 points with two hit spells. (This is low balling it but I'll go with it anyways)
A Mage just to cast uninterrupted at max fc (takes off .5 seconds of casting, Fs is 2 and explosion is 1.75, so with fc is 2.75 and add .75
Seconds for curse) in 3.5 seconds maybe doing 90 points of damage.
So 180 points and another 40 = 220 but add in interruptions with parry, 2.64 hits so interruption two spells in the 10 so -80 points drops damage to 140 on parry Mage.
Take off parry archer damage goes up to 200 4/8 shots in 10 seconds using a flat 50.
Mage was casting 7 spells which included spells is now down to 3.5 with interruptions because he's being hit every 2.5 seconds.
So thats curse exp Fs and maybe another exp if he is lucky and doesn't have to curse someone again. Doing maybe between 90-120 it's of damage vs an archers now 200 points.
Where originally it's 132 vs 140
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50 point shot low-balling huh, that would be around the maximum per shot actually (with cursed target Or slightly under max with an AI)...
The point I'm making is Parry is overpowered as a Wrestle/Parry or Anatomy/Parry Mage... Taking away parry is more balanced, I'm not proposing a change to parry to make it useless.
I want it to be half as effective if it's paired with Wrestling or Anatomy due to nothing needing to be sacrificed for it.
That's all.
Obviously you don't think it's overpowered and btw. the HLD reduces your "dodge chance" by 6%, it does nothing to parry chance at all (I've said this many times in this thread).
So it'll be on average: @45 dci vs 45 hci and equal skills.
50% chance to get hit
56% chance to get hit while affected by HLD.
32.5% chance to hit with parry.
36.5% chance to be hit while affected by HLD with parry.
proposed change:
41% chance to be hit With Parry.
47% chance to be hit while affected by HLD With Parry.
Melee dexers would still be at much more of a disadvantage than ranged dexers but the Parry Mage would still be missed more than they're hit.
Pfft I just did the math for you without parry, no way does this make it overpowered.
In fact removing it makes, dexers overpowered or nerfing it in anyway.
Hell I didn't even account for HLD or reaction time.
The fact you're trying to make an argument if dodge bs block demonstrates how legitimate your argument is...
To help you out we will use the term "miss(es)".
You realize the argument is about "Parry" being OP with Wrestling or Anatomy, and blocked attacks are not the same as dodged attacks.
it's the only argument there is.
if a Blocked attack was the same as dodging, then reactive paralyze would be ~33% of every attack that doesn't hit someone with or without parry (if they use reactive para shield), not only that, but Lower Defense would increase your chance to be hit by a full 6% if they were the same thing.
That wasn't factoring in up to 12%-17% casting focus casts nor was it factoring in extra time from potential reactive paralyzes (33% of blocked attacks)...** it also was not factoring in a 70% DCI cap for the mage or 75% (65%) resistances for dexer. which would mostly be in favor of the mage...
Given the template you named with wrestle and parry, inscribe wouldn't be viable unless your dropped something.
So 12% casting focus, meaning less than 1 in 10 spells will go go through lol.
I find it funny you're not even arguing the math, instead it's reactive paralyze again.
I mean, how could you?
But let's be real here, who's running around with a 70 Dci suit that isn't getting smoked by another Mage.
You're running out of straws to grasp.
Again, reactive paralyze is a weak argument. Besides with weapon skill or Mage weapon it's only 17.5% nor does it include trapped boxes.
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12% is less than 1/10? lol that's some good math there bud.
I didn't name off any specific templates btw, you did.
120 Mage
120 Eval
120 Parry
120 Resist
100 Alchemy
100 Anatomy / 120 wrestling (I'd do anatomy) who needs to disarm when people can barely hit you anyway? lol
40 w/e (no skill jewels needed)
Obviously you could get more out of it if you put in the time / money to get amazing gear you could probably fit another 100 skill which (IMO) would either be healing, scribe, or poisoning in most cases. (I'd do healing)
Dropping med is easy, no one needs med for field fighting... 20+ MR and you have plenty of regen to pvp with... it's enough to duel with if the duel isn't turtled... who the f**k has med anymore?
I wasn't factoring in the chances of reactive para, casting focus, or anything other than parry vs a dexer and the damage both would do on average, obviously you failed to read the post.
It's good enough to warrant a fix to parry without factoring in those things... because it's.... OP.
Where's your argument to say it's not OP?
It would be less than one in ten for it to work and be hit at the same time...you were trying to counter the spell interruption argument, remember?
Casting focus doesn't matter when you're not being interrupted.
At least try to keep up with the conversation.
If you're running 80 dex, I suppose you could drop med. some people don't mind dumping and running I guess.
I don't know if you ever tried it even with just 4 mR on each piece, but you lose mana very quickly. Trust me I've tried, especially if you are fighting another Mage.
I've read and responded to all your posts, I wish I could say the same for you.
But humor me champ, feel free to tell me the damage output with your suggested changes.
Already posted it with and without parry... and with the proposed change...
. . . what else you got?
That isn't the damage output.
41% chance to be hit with parry? So you're gaining 9% blocking on top of the normal 50%.
And then you want to take it down to 53% after HLD? Lol.
There'd be no point having parry then.
4 out of 10 shots, would be about 200 points of damage in 12.5 seconds against someone WITH parry not even counting HLD.
Yeah, let's go with that....
You could still have 35% chance to block with the proposed changes but you'd have to use a weapon skill and hold a weapon & a shield.... like a dexer would... how hard is that to understand?
The proposed change would only effect those who have Parry + Wrestling/Anatomy
Sorry, quoted the wrong post of mine... Parry would still be worth having, 17.5% chance to block on top of 50% chance to be missed... on top of any other garbage RNG (Casting focus)
besides you really don't have too many skills to put in-place of it, if you want to keep the 30% Sdi... Parry would still offer the most between Scribe/Poisoning. even with the proposed change.
Proposed change: Mage would do ~135 damage in 10 seconds to a cursed target (including the cast time of curse) using the same RNG of a dexer landing the same amount of hits. (this is at 30% SDI not including scribe/focus sash... )
Nooooooo don't ****ing touch parry
uh, you do not keep the 67.5% if your proposed change is to allow them to be hit 41% of the time with parry...
You all just can't resist screwing with stuff that isn't broken can you. Mortal needs fixed. Leave the other stuff alone for god sake.
heh love it. Can't say they aren't listening. Just be careful what you argue about.
If they're making decisions based on a single persons feedback then we have bigger issues than them making unecessary tweaks to parry.heh love it. Can't say they aren't listening. Just be careful what you argue about.
Let alone tweaks that don't make any sense.
Hey, it could be unrelated, and they only mentioned it because it was part of the ongoing conversation. Though, it certainly does look the way it looks.
A Mage who has dedicated 220-240 skill points for nothing but defense deserves the higher chance to not get hit. There are already so few pvp mages left, screwing with parry will likely all but eliminate them unless they are in large groups.
There wasn't a change to parry that drove mages to use the skill, it was the extreme offense today's suits afford dexxers. Really, think back 5 years... How many mages were running wrestle/parry? I certainly don't remember that being the go to Mage template. Seems to me that we all ran around with imbued planeswords. That is mostly unsurvivable in today's pvp... or at very least is going to spend the vast majority of time doing nothing but running.
Dismount, disarm, splinter, bleed, mortal, AI, DP... All of which stack and dexxers are pancakes because it takes on average 3 seconds to keep hitting a parry Mage ... And the Devs even consider making parry less effective. Totally out of touch.
No offense to @CovenantX, but it is not just the straight damage that has to be considered in balance issues, it is all those other specials and effects. Splinters, bleeds, dismounts, mortals, HLD, etc all have bigger effects on pvp than just the immediate damage they do.
@Bleak
There wasn't a change to parry that drove mages to use the skill, it was the extreme offense today's suits afford dexxers. Really, think back 5 years... How many mages were running wrestle/parry? I certainly don't remember that being the go to Mage template. Seems to me that we all ran around with imbued planeswords. That is mostly unsurvivable in today's pvp... or at very least is going to spend the vast majority of time doing nothing but running.
Dismount, disarm, splinter, bleed, mortal, AI, DP... All of which stack and dexxers are pancakes because it takes on average 3 seconds to keep hitting a parry Mage ... And the Devs even consider making parry less effective. Totally out of touch.
No offense to @CovenantX, but it is not just the straight damage that has to be considered in balance issues, it is all those other specials and effects. Splinters, bleeds, dismounts, mortals, HLD, etc all have bigger effects on pvp than just the immediate damage they do.
@Bleak
Yeah I share the blame in derailing it to that point. My apologies, though I wouldn't have guessed they would have acted on some poor argument in order to tweak it.Hey, it could be unrelated, and they only mentioned it because it was part of the ongoing conversation. Though, it certainly does look the way it looks.
I mean if they were to tweak something stupid like reactive paralyze, fine I don't care.
But if it's to the blocking percentage knowing it's going to only be a one sided tweak, then there's a problem.
Can you imagine fighting a deathstrike template with his suggested change?
Pretty much you're eating 50 points of damage every 2.5 seconds that doesn't include if they have evil omen on their template.
It's that or stand still while they spam a special on you.
Once again, the Morons speak and the devs listen. Just fantastic!
Please explain why it's a bad idea.
Apparently i didn't get my point across to them.
I would like to thank those players who took the time to test the current Mortal Strike changes and provided feedback. We will be removing diminishing returns and adding an immunity timer similar to Paralyze. We will not be making any updates to Parry based on the off topic Mage vs Dexer discussion of this thread. The changes to Parry are related to how some Parry Mastery abilities are calculated. We hope to get the changes on TC in the next couple of weeks. Looking forward to your feedback on those changes.
You would have the normal 67.5% total chance to avoid weapon-based damage if you used any weapon skill other then Wrestling or Anatomy.
You'd just have to choose between
A) 17.5% Parry chance + Potions
B) 35% chance to Parry without Potions.
tough decision...
That's IF they even go with my proposed change though, I doubt they would... I've been asking for the removal of casting focus (in pvp) since it came out 2009-2010-ish.
It's called don't take more than 4 steps after you're hit by a DS 16-18 damage is much better than taking 50-70, if you take 50 (70 with omen) every 2.5 seconds you're not pvping, you're running.
You can always have best of both worlds by just disarming yourself, chugging and rearming your weapon as well. I still think Alchemy and poisoning should be added to the SDI break list. If you take too much away from one side another side with become OP. Make it so all templates are viable. Honestly Chivalry could use a nerf as well. If combed with bushido or weaving it should cut the damage holy fist does down, just like it does for a mage.
Mortal strike sounds even better than it was before it was changed. (the first time)
Parry: Hopefully it means Wrestling will not add bonus damage/paralyze to Shield-bash like it should have been while it was in beta.
as well as effect the increased parry chances from Heightened Senses.
I don't know when the last time you pvped is, but barely any of it is ever standing, let alone within 4 steps.
Rarely you can get a one on one where you can just circle the dude to make that work.
As far as parry or wrestle there's nothing wrong with it.
This is telling a a one handed dexer he can't chug because his template isn't fair vs a Mage...
I last pvped about a month ago, plenty since anything has changed at least... too be completely honest, it's boring fighting nothing but parry-mages, disarm/archers & the occasional 4/6 chivalry.
I know it's pretty rare to get one-on-one pvp, especially at yew gate or on Atlantic in general
However one on one is where the balance has to be, it has nothing to do with group pvp.
in a 1v2+ (you being the 1) you're going to take the 50+ damage every time someone DS's you? It's situational, but if you run and take 50 every time from a 1v2 no wonder you'd be against a re-balance to parry.
You know, another way they could rebalance it (sort of) is to make Balanced melee-weapons able to parry. It's pretty f**king stupid that parry is better for mage templates when they're already better than most dexer templates (at least for those who know how to play mages) both Defensively & Offensively... it's flipped around for pvm because of slayers, armor ignore & spell interruptions.
im not sure why they gave balanced weapons and then nerfed them.
These should have been able to parry all along.
As far as the situational deathstrike, it's generally better to eat it and chug to keep moving than wait for a mana dump.
Completely agree on that one, especially with how over powered some of these shields can get. BUT Even if they did make it so you could Parry with a balanced two hander, unless you have bushido on the template you will still only be parrying for 20% vs 35% with a shield. (120 bushido template being the obvious exemption)
From that standpoint, I am with covenantx that parrying with a shield open handed should be treated like parrying with a weapon and no shield (No Bushido)
20% Cap.
Right, that's why I said it would be balanced "sort of" in there. for the same defense a mage would have you'd need an extra 120.0 skill points (any less in parry OR bushido) you wouldn't have a 35% chance to block. That's the main reason I think parry with only shields needs to be nerfed if it's not paired with an actual weapon skill.
Dexers sacrifice pots & reactive paralyze OR Parry altogether...
Mages sacrifice nothing but weapon damage, Which is irrelevant anyway since you can't swing weapons while casting in the first place.
I'd be for nerfing Parry with shields + Wrestling or Anatomy (especially Anatomy)... as opposed to buffing it up if you use a weapon + shield... potions are too good for people to sacrifice them just to have an RNG chance to Parry... Dexers have to choose and Dexers need potions more than mages do.
A
So also dont forget to remove each Kind of Special Moves. Weapons and armor and give each one a stone to throw like middle ages. That would be even and fair for eveyone.
/Sarcasm
So also dont forget to remove each Kind of Special Moves. Weapons and armor and give each one a stone to throw like middle ages. That would be even and fair for eveyone.
/Sarcasm
The idea of making every template a tit for tat just doesn't work. Should dexxers have to disarm their weapon anytime they have a bandage going?? I mean a Mage can't flamestrike you and greater heal at the same time? They can't run and heal at the same time (even though some of the speed hacks sure make it seem that way).
The fact is, parry functions exactly the same for all templates. What those templates do with their other hand is a choice. If a Mage wants full melee defense they have to choose between a weapon skill, a Mage weapon, or wrestle/anat. Each one of those choices comes with pros/cons. If a Mage wants full defense from parry they have to drop some mana for higher dex... they give up some offense for defense.
Dexxers have similar choices even if it isn't exactly the same... Because mages and dexxers ARE different. A dexxer doesn't give up mana to use parry, they already have the dex for their weapon... What they give up is pots while both hands are full.
But let's take your analogy all the way out... 1v1... Dexxer vs Mage... Why wouldn't the dexxer just drop the shield for the fight anyway... It's not like he can parry the Mage spells. Voila... Dexxer can chug, heal, and attack all at the same time. The parry Mage can chug, but still has to pick offense or healing 1 at a time.
At ~ 4 second intervals the dexxer is going to be able to land 1 AI with extra effects like hit lighting and get off a bandage heal.
At ~ 4 second intervals a parry Mage is going to get off a flamestrike and a greater heal if he isn't interrupted.
The rest is RNG and player tactics.
Like I said before, parry has stayed basically the same for what 8+ years? Mages have always had the ability to choose it, just like dexxers. The recent surge of mages using parry wasn't a result of parry becoming stronger and unbalancing pvp... It was dexxers becoming stronger and forcing mages into more defense.
Well thats true, but with the skill buffs for mages (Focused Mage, Alchemy, Poisoning) + Casting Focus and Reactive Paralyse the Parry/Mage template became too strong. With precast Explo, Flamestrike and Nova/Conflag potions a Focused Mage can do 100+ damage in a short amount of time. He is pretty good protected against Dexxers and doesnt miss anything against other mages. As stated before, just put Parry to the list of skills that doesnt allow you to be a Focused mage. If you wanna have max damage you cant have all the protection. With this done have a look at and adjust the base damage and/or special moves damage and/or swing speed of Dexxers so a mage without Parry can survive a Dexxer with all his mods these days.
I would be fine with adding poisoning and alchemy to the focused Mage list, but I don't think parry makes sense. Parry has no offense, it's all defense... the focus Mage restrictions should stay focused on the offensive skills.
Fixing the double conflagration/nova should be a no brainer. This is not limited to just mages.
Nah, why open that can of worms.
People are okay with using parry on a Mage. Leave it alone, the balance is close. Even a couple that were using parry and wrestling i smoked the other day using fencer archer.
Frankly if they did anything to tweak parry, or focus on a Mage I'd just play a fencer archer all the time.
Parry makes a focused mage OP, so it sure makes sense. A parry mage without being focused is still good enough. A mage without parry is a bit too vulnerable in my eyes.
You killed some random parry/mages tell us what? Nothing.
You will play fence archer all time if they would tweak parry or focused mage tells us what? You are afraid they weaken your OP template and you might move to the next one in line.
There are just a few useful pvp templates out there atm. Thats why there has to be done some overhaul.
Let's make more templates in pvp great again!!!
The defense for parry + wrestling or anatomy is OP because of the ability to chug, 35% block chance, & potential reactive paralyze. It's not possible for a dexer to achieve the same defense, even with 120 bushido added a dexer is sill unable to have all 3 options open.
Melee dexers get the shaft e v e r y t i m e.
Melee dexers get the shaft e v e r y t i m e.
I thought it was pretty obvious what it was telling you. But I get that the capacity isn't equivalent across the board.
Besides, if I were playing a fencer archer, why would I be concerned with them nerfing it?
The balance is fine right now, and they don't need to touch parry or focusing.
If they want to nerf reactive paralyze fine, that should have never been implemented anyways.
So am I going to play a template that becomes more overpowered due to some random dude trying to get parry nerfed? Yep, and I'll laugh the whole time doing it too.
Dexxers have plenty of other factors that balance the equation.
Simplified:
Yours : 6 = 4 is not balanced
Mine : 6 + 1 + 1 = 4 + 2 + 2 is balanced
Just my opinion though.
How would reducing Parry chance by 50% (35% down to 17.5%) if Parry is used with Wrestling or Anatomy vs swords, fencing, or macing Not balanced?
and parry would no longer require 80 dex.
a Parry mage even if this change happened would still get hit less than they would without parry even if lower D is factored the whole time, and it would be less than 50% chance they'd be hit as well.