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NEWS [UO.Com] Mortal Strike Changes Coming to Test Center
It is longer for regular weapons (not sure why I'm guessing to compensate for cutting ranged in half).
So once mortal is applied it has a 24
second reduction window (shorter duration).
Basically it's now 4 seconds instead of 6 for ranged.
This means they will use more mana to apply the same length of mortals.
The problem is that the length is still to long and is freely spamable.
I don't mind if they do this but there needs to be something similar done to curse, eat apple, just re curse. also para spam needs some kind of change. I hope the devs know, archer vs mage, a good pvp mage should win ever time. just my opinions. the real problem is the auto program cheating but nothing done again.
I don't think one template should always beat another template.
A 211 Stam archer vs a mage is usually a pretty good fight. Try fighting one of these archers on a mage that doesn't have parry, it can be pretty tough. I am curious why they would decide that now, 12 years after Mortal Strike came out, that it suddenly needs a attitude adjustment. I am confident archers will adapt to this, and melee fighters have needed a buff for a while. I am in full agreement with Lord Arm, the auto cheating programs need to go, and should be considered a top priority. I have tried to wrap my head around the reason that they are left to run amok with no fear or penalty for SO LONG, but I cannot seem to come up with one. SURELY there is a way to keep people from using stuff like that, in other games people are caught almost immediately.
On the other hand, I may hop over to test and make a archer, a fencer, and a archer fencer! This is a situation that needs serious testing, as the ramifications of this change could affect templates and gear making for years to come. Please go to TC1 and test this for yourselves, and see how it works. The 130% damage thingy is what caught my eye, lets go have a look, shall we?
On the other hand, I may hop over to test and make a archer, a fencer, and a archer fencer! This is a situation that needs serious testing, as the ramifications of this change could affect templates and gear making for years to come. Please go to TC1 and test this for yourselves, and see how it works. The 130% damage thingy is what caught my eye, lets go have a look, shall we?
All this did was create a cookie cutter template and drive everyone back to a mele archer. Instead they are just going to utilize mortal on a mele weapon.
The even more hilarious part is they don't emphasize if the 130% DI caters to only Mele or if it effects spells as well. And what about DI cap? Does it go over? If it effects SDI then can you achieve higher than 40sdi? If it doesn't effect spells they are further pushing mages out of gameplay.
Just a f***ing stupid hot fix from an incompetent dev team.
The even more hilarious part is they don't emphasize if the 130% DI caters to only Mele or if it effects spells as well. And what about DI cap? Does it go over? If it effects SDI then can you achieve higher than 40sdi? If it doesn't effect spells they are further pushing mages out of gameplay.
Just a f***ing stupid hot fix from an incompetent dev team.
doesn't matter the timer on melee weapons - people are so fast these days that you can't catch up to them to hit them anyway but the archery nerf definitely helps a little
sounds like you could still keep people perma mortalled though from what I read - just made it slightly more difficult
melee definitely doesn't matter though - you're lucky if you catch up to and hit someone once every 2 minutes
sounds like you could still keep people perma mortalled though from what I read - just made it slightly more difficult
melee definitely doesn't matter though - you're lucky if you catch up to and hit someone once every 2 minutes
The problem with mortal is that it doesn't matter how long it lasts, or scaled down.
The fact that it resets the bandage timer is enough to make it unviable to base it on Deminishing returns.
If the only tweak to be made is a timer on the same system put the duration timer at 1 second.
This gives a minimum bandage reset of 6 seconds instead I of the proposed 9 second minimum.
Remove the proposed damage tweaks. Those are unecessary.
Damage isn't the problem,
Not being able to heal is.
The fact that it resets the bandage timer is enough to make it unviable to base it on Deminishing returns.
If the only tweak to be made is a timer on the same system put the duration timer at 1 second.
This gives a minimum bandage reset of 6 seconds instead I of the proposed 9 second minimum.
Remove the proposed damage tweaks. Those are unecessary.
Damage isn't the problem,
Not being able to heal is.
They're not going to do anything about the programs. It's ridiculous. The 130% damage thing sounds stupid.
No kidding. A better solution was even offered several times. You'd think they'd do something smart and listen to the players that actually pvp.
It wouldn't effect mages at all, it's a damage boost to mortal strike. All the other weapons special damage boosts effect the cap, so I imagine this would as well.
The point is, really, the only fix should be a static timer if 12 seconds using the existing 6 second timer.
If this isn't possible they need to scale down the duration timer so it is more mana intensive or increase mana cost to double in the 8 second delay window, including raising the base mana cost to 45.
I was just clarifying, not supporting.
I'm not sure why they even tried tweaking the damage caps for mortal.I was just clarifying, not supporting.
To compensate the timer being tweaked I assume. I get it in theory (less mortal uptime compensated by making mortal strike more deadly), but outside of a vacuum you realize that no one will ever use mortal for the damage boost because a) if its damage increase (rather than mod) everyone is already capped out, and evenn if not 30% mod is going to be a tiny bump in real damage, and b) there are better specials to use to finish someone off.
We are taking a step back here and this is my reasoning:
We can all cure being Mortal Striked by using apple, Cleansing winds and Chiv Spell.
Most archers run with Chiv, same as for mages, as the Chiv Mastery is OP.
You are just making the mage temp even more stronger over a melee, and I dont care what you say, most melees are Archers not fencer/swords in PVP.
If you want to look into something, check the OP spells of having a MysticWeave Necro mage, 3-4 spell combo and you are going down.
Having MS hurt and be able to stack, gave an edge to the archer over the mage, now the mage is way to OP to fight a archer.
We can all cure being Mortal Striked by using apple, Cleansing winds and Chiv Spell.
Most archers run with Chiv, same as for mages, as the Chiv Mastery is OP.
You are just making the mage temp even more stronger over a melee, and I dont care what you say, most melees are Archers not fencer/swords in PVP.
If you want to look into something, check the OP spells of having a MysticWeave Necro mage, 3-4 spell combo and you are going down.
Having MS hurt and be able to stack, gave an edge to the archer over the mage, now the mage is way to OP to fight a archer.
I think it's a stretch to assume most
Archers and mages are using chiv.
I know none of my characters use chiv in pvp.
Let's not confuse the agenda here.
Even if they did it can be reapplied non stop and I'm pretty sure they're not running 4/6 (especially mages
Over 80 Margery because you can't)
The Mortal strike change doesn't sound too bad in the end, but it's unnecessary to add an extra damage increase/penalty.
IMO It should be:
Mortal Strike: 12s (melee) 6s (ranged) (PVM) Half duration (6s/3s respectively) for PVP, Mortal Strike cannot be reapplied within a 12 second window.
I'd rather see Parry reduced in effectiveness if not paired with a Weapon Skill (Fencing, Mace Fighting, & Swordsmanship)... Wrestling or Anatomy should not count as weapon skills... Remove the dexterity requirement and make Parry take 240.0 skills for max block chance (Weapon skill + Parry).
Most importantly- Remove Casting Focus & Poison Immunity.
IMO It should be:
Mortal Strike: 12s (melee) 6s (ranged) (PVM) Half duration (6s/3s respectively) for PVP, Mortal Strike cannot be reapplied within a 12 second window.
I'd rather see Parry reduced in effectiveness if not paired with a Weapon Skill (Fencing, Mace Fighting, & Swordsmanship)... Wrestling or Anatomy should not count as weapon skills... Remove the dexterity requirement and make Parry take 240.0 skills for max block chance (Weapon skill + Parry).
Most importantly- Remove Casting Focus & Poison Immunity.
Hunter Perilous
Journeyman
I completely agree with you about the party thing.The Mortal strike change doesn't sound too bad in the end, but it's unnecessary to add an extra damage increase/penalty.
IMO It should be:
Mortal Strike: 12s (melee) 6s (ranged) (PVM) Half duration (6s/3s respectively) for PVP, Mortal Strike cannot be reapplied within a 12 second window.
I'd rather see Parry reduced in effectiveness if not paired with a Weapon Skill (Fencing, Mace Fighting, & Swordsmanship)... Wrestling or Anatomy should not count as weapon skills... Remove the dexterity requirement and make Parry take 240.0 skills for max block chance (Weapon skill + Parry).
Most importantly- Remove Casting Focus & Poison Immunity.
It's def over powered. Even with the 80 dex requirement. Parry should def be linked to a weapon skill.
Your parry suggestion is ridiculous.The Mortal strike change doesn't sound too bad in the end, but it's unnecessary to add an extra damage increase/penalty.
IMO It should be:
Mortal Strike: 12s (melee) 6s (ranged) (PVM) Half duration (6s/3s respectively) for PVP, Mortal Strike cannot be reapplied within a 12 second window.
I'd rather see Parry reduced in effectiveness if not paired with a Weapon Skill (Fencing, Mace Fighting, & Swordsmanship)... Wrestling or Anatomy should not count as weapon skills... Remove the dexterity requirement and make Parry take 240.0 skills for max block chance (Weapon skill + Parry).
Most importantly- Remove Casting Focus & Poison Immunity.
There is nothing wrong with it.
most people use parry with a weapon skill which is why the blocking chance is around 65%.
Unless you're suggesting that with a weapon skill people should only block 1/3 of the time maximum.
In short, no thanks.
Parry is pretty much a requirement now if you want to play a Mage.
If you nerf that then there's no point.
It may as well be dexers online.
It already IS dexers online. Parry is the only thing keeping mages useful.
Not if they follow knucklehead ideas like the ones above
ehh. I get where he's coming from (I'm in Vent with him often), but ultimately, I think his reasoning is flawed. To me, parry shouldn't be a REQUIRED skill for a mage to pvp. At Yew gate, you usually won't see any mages without Parry - if you do, there's likely a group with them to begin with, and the mage will more than likely be in a support role (debuffs, interrupts, tossing heals)
As far as Mortal: Apply it once, and whether appled or not, reapplying it does nothing for x # of seconds. NOT a hard fix.
I'm for mages... most of the time, but parry is OP as hell. When a mage without parry can beat a dexer a fair amount of the time, a parry mage can beat a dexer 75-90% of the time...
This is what's wrong with Parry.
What does a parry dexer get if they have alchemy? they get the choice between chugging or depending on RNG for blocks. why do mages get both?
Parry for Dexers - Both hands occupied unless, even with bushido You are NOT Able to parry with a Balanced Weapon.
Parry for Mages - 1 hand free *Anatomy/Wrestling + a shield. Less skill points if anatomy is used. but you're able to use any and all potions.
Mages can pvp without potions and still be very effective, also mages are able to keep the SDI cap of 30%.
a Skill that prevents Weapon hits from connecting should be better for dexers than mages. if it required a weapon skill + parry, Mages could still get max parry chance (at the cost of being able to chug without disarming (hrmm...Like a dexer...), especially if they remove the dex requirement. but no, it's better for mages than it is for dexers... much like the dexer stuff is almost always better for archers & throwers than it is for melee skills.
Parry is not a requirement, people just want something they have the best chances to beat everything with one template. what better way to have 30% SDI and the best possible defense at the same time... and still have room for poisoning, scribe, or alchemy....
I can't believe I need to explain all this to people still, how long have you been playing UO?
I would just put Parry on the list of skills making you unable to be a focused mage. If you want to have high damage output you cant have high defense as well.
But Dexxers seem to be too strong against mages without parry, so there seem the be another balance needed. Maybe adjust the damage of weapons a bit and the mortal strike move.
But Dexxers seem to be too strong against mages without parry, so there seem the be another balance needed. Maybe adjust the damage of weapons a bit and the mortal strike move.
A lot of these are false arguments. Not exactly that what you're saying is wrong for mechanics, but doesn't support what you're saying about parry needing nerfed.
You also can't use random percentages you make up and cite them as fact lol.
If a Mage is using parry with no weapon, needing 80 dex, they're blocking 35%. This is less than a dexer just using a weapon and chugging.
A weapon skill alone will allow you to block 50% of time, balanced or not.
If a Mage dumps an extra 120 points in to get max blocking, the trade of is still damage rate. (Swing speed, casting damage yadda yadda)
A dexer can be effective without pots too, if you're trying to make that argument.
If the argument is dexer vs Mage, then blocking is irrelevant anyways for a dexer.
In the end you're really just arguing template differences, which is no justification to nerf parry.
I could do the math for you to explain the damage load for the handful of templates but it's early and I haven't had any coffee yet.
Why is the formular soo complex? Make it simple!
If you make it soo complex i can gurantee you the engineer who has to code it introduces a lot of more bugs.
Mortal thougths:
Pros:
Cons:
If you make it soo complex i can gurantee you the engineer who has to code it introduces a lot of more bugs.
Mortal thougths:
Pros:
- Healing of players is too strong
- there are nearly no methods to prevent a player from healing other than mortal (poison = counter is too strong, bleeding only bandage)
Cons:
- Healing is disabled completly (all heal skills are useless)
- there is nearly no counter against it
- you can be mortaled too often especially when you are fighting against groups
- longer the duration between mortals
- tweak the duration of mortal state (cant say if more or less)
Blocking and dodging are not the same thing, anyone without parry has a 50% chance to dodge if their weapon skill and DCI is equal to their opponents weapon skill & HCI.
35% chance to block with a shield investing only Parry and Wrestling (240.0) OR 220.0 for Parry & Anatomy, both of which allow the user to hold a shield without a weapon and still gain the 50% dodge chance. What do they lose out on? oh weapon damage.... you can't swing your weapon while casting most spells anyway.
Parry is unaffected by HLD because the chance to block does not decrease. the 50% chance to dodge is however.
Another benefit to parry is Reactive Paralyze. Dexers need to give up the ability to chug potions completely if they want to use it.
It is just not possible to chug potions and have reactive paralyze as a dexer.
Where are you getting this from?
The chance a Parry Mage will win vs a Dexer 75-90%? I didn't say it was a fact btw, but a good mage without parry can beat a good dexer about 50% of the time. Obviously with parry it has to be higher...
btw, 35% chance to block with a dexer while chugging is either sacrificing their 50% dodge chance by disarming their weapon to chug... OR using a 1-handed weapon without a shield, but oh wait... that requires bushido and parry to both be 120.0 ... Why so flawed?
Add me to the crowd that thinks parry is fine the way it is. Parry is really the only counter currently available to the (IMO) overpowered offense today's equipment offers dexxers. Today's suits and weapons offer tons of offense without really having to sacrifice for it anymore. Consider that in addition to weapon specials that can almost be spammed non-stop, weapons themselves add multiple additional effects. With all of that coming at you at 1.25 swing speed even a 50/50 chance to get hit is often times not enough for a Mage to stand his ground and fight. That is the only reason everyone is running parry nowadays.
Uh I don't know how you're getting your numbers, but with weapon and parry it's what, 62.5% chance to block. (Or 67.5% I forget off hand)
Why would you drop your weapon to chug?
I know at least in UOA I think I had it set up to disarm shield. Losing only the 12.5% stacking (or 17.5 however the math worked out)
Your logic is flawed
a dexxer can easily apply a bandage and run off screen from a mage - if you stand there long enough for a mage to get off 4 spells on you and die, then you are the worst dexxer that has ever lived
there is no reason a dexxer should EVER die to a mage - not even once - 50% my ass - lol
It doesn't matter what you drop to chug, The point is you have too on a dexer, mages do not.
besides, if you refine your suit, you'd be better off dropping your weapon to chug instead of your shield since Lower D lowers your DCI and not your parry chance.
Your chance to block only goes beyond 40% with Evasion or the Parry Mastery.
The only way a dexer could have the same defense as a mage without sacrificing the ability to chug potions is to Add bushido and run with only one-handed weapons. It NEVER should have been this way. Parry is Broken.
Yes it matters what you drop to chug.
But then again it's back to template differences. Besides your probably not worried about dropping a shield or weapon fighting a Mage.
If you have any sense you have the hand already open to chug...
Aside from this, you get hit with HLD, it reduces to 44% chance to block.
Using only a shield is 35%
Using parry with just a weapon is 20%
the 44% chance to block is your Dodge chance, not your "Block" chance, this is also what it would be if you didn't have parry while you're affected by HLD.
with Parry it would be 59.4% chance to be missed (dodge/parry) assuming you still have a cap of 45% DCI. either way though the dodge chance is irrelevant as it has absolutely nothing to do with your "block" chance that's already balanced.
a dexer at 20% chance to block can't use reactive paralyze and chug, Mages can.
If a dexer wants the same chance to block as a mage with the ability to chug it requires an additional 120.0 skill points invested in bushido.
Why would mages get the best of both worlds?
Besides, if parry was effected by weapon skill for 50% of it's chance to block, a mage with wrestling or Anatomy would still have 17.5% chance to block (Especially if they removed the 80 dex requirement(I never liked the dex requirement anyway...))
The one thing about Mortal strike as it is now, is it lasts long enough for a dexer to have a chance at killing a parry mage. they can't keep nerfing things to help dexers fight pretty much the only mage template out there anymore, without nerfing Parry.
I can't tell you the last time I saw any variant of Mage template in pvp that doesn't have parry.
besides most of my characters of course...
it doesn't matter if it's dodge or block, the math doesn't change.
the weapon rolls, and then parry.
Reactive paralyze is a weak reason to try and justify nerfing parry
It does matter because of reactive paralyze only procs on blocked attacks, and your block chance is always 35% never reduced.
I am not suggesting the nerf to parry because of reactive paralyze, I'm suggesting a nerf to parry for wrestling or Anatomy because it's OP as f***.
Maybe you don't pvp in UO, or you play mostly parry mages because obviously you're biased about it, it was clear when you said "parry is required if you want to play a mage".
It's not overpowered, and I've already refuted your points.
From chugging to blocking chances. (And now reactive paralyze, which is a weak argument)
Anyone can run wrestle and parry, you just seem to be bitter it doesn't work in your favor.
Sorry champ, no matter how you try to spin it, there is nothing overpowered about it.
By the way, I've been regularly pvping since 2000. How about you?
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This change wont effect the mortal problem at all. Even at 4s reduced time the archer still has 3 shots at 1.25 to reapply the mortal over and over. Mortal strike should be a tactical special not a spammable special. And for those people out there that think it was always like this you are wrong. Mortal strike used to be if you got mortaled, you couldn't get mortaled again in certain time window, no matter who shot you. The way it is now there is no challenge to be an archer, just spam mortal until redlined and then ai to finish.
What needs to be nerfed on parry mages is alchy and poisoning. Pots in any shape or form should not do over half of someones life ( IE run through two conflags plus nova) Alchy and poisoning need to be added to the SDI break list. Either that or they need to hard cap EP with no additional bonus from Alchy. Also the devs could fix the bug that allows people to throw two conflags at once!! I also think wrestling should require tactics as well to use specials. That itself would nerf down the template some as well.
What needs to be nerfed on parry mages is alchy and poisoning. Pots in any shape or form should not do over half of someones life ( IE run through two conflags plus nova) Alchy and poisoning need to be added to the SDI break list. Either that or they need to hard cap EP with no additional bonus from Alchy. Also the devs could fix the bug that allows people to throw two conflags at once!! I also think wrestling should require tactics as well to use specials. That itself would nerf down the template some as well.
Ehh. You already know that disarm is worthless unless you're facing someone that's not using a weapon skill mastery (btw @Kyronix, can Archery and Throwing get different passive skills?) - I tried it on someone that was afk and had to use it 6 times before I was successful. Granted, I don't have HCI, but I doubt it would have helped.
The tactics requirement: No. Wrestling isn't used for the damage.
Isn't EP already capped at 50?
But yes mortal shouldn't be spammed, and two conflagrations need fixed.
That's the equipment cap. Alchemy adds another 30% to it at GM - I forget the exact numbers, but when I ran Alch my gheal pots would heal for 45-ish regularly. That's about 10 points difference from the EP Rings I use on all my suits.
Hunter Perilous
Journeyman
I don't know the exact numbers for parry.
I do know that I've fought many parry mages.
My buddy's parry Mage is almost unstoppable against a Dexxer.
I'm 120 archery, Max hci, 180 Stam with a 40SSI bow and I hit him maybe, 1 out of 5.
I've gone as many as 15 swings straight and not hit him.
I do know that I've fought many parry mages.
My buddy's parry Mage is almost unstoppable against a Dexxer.
I'm 120 archery, Max hci, 180 Stam with a 40SSI bow and I hit him maybe, 1 out of 5.
I've gone as many as 15 swings straight and not hit him.
First off, I'm not trying to make parry work in my favor, the fact of the matter is people have parry to fight Archers & Throwers.. melee dexers are easy to survive without even having parry.
Second, it is overpowered for mages, mostly because they don't sacrifice anything to maintain max parry chance, ability to chug, reactive paralyze... when dexers cannot possibly have all three perks at the same time like a mage could (Even with an extra 120.0 skill investment in bushido) it... is... over-powered...
I'd like to see the exact reason in detail why you think it's balanced the way it is (I'm sure it'll be lol-able)
This is how Parry should work:
120 parry + 120 Fencing, Macing, or Swords = 35% chance to block with a shield (Bushido increases chances to block while no shields are equipped and no longer reduces shield block chances)
120 parry + Wrestling or Anatomy = 17.5% chance to block.
*Dex has no longer effects parry chances
That would "Balance" Parry between every template instead of making better for mages than it is for Dexers.
Don't forget to remove Casting Focus & Poison Immunity.
Here's what I want you to do,
In 10 seconds I want you to figure out the damage output from an archer using max mods with AI and two hit spells against a parry Mage with max dci (67.5%). And don't forget HLD (this will take of 6% blocking to help you out.)
Then in the same ten seconds using max mods for a parry Mage, figure out the damage output.
When you're done get back to me.
Dexer = 88.4 damage in 10 seconds (at 50/50 velocity/lightening) on average. (no specials) 132.6 with every hit being an Armor Ignore...
using the same RNG
Mage would be around ~164 in 10 seconds to a cursed target (this is including the cast time of Curse) using the same RNG of a dexer landing the same amount of hits. (this is at 30% SDI not including scribe/focus sash... )
Anything else?