Understanding Your Fellow Players

[Bethany_lg]

I think I'm gonna start by saying, I always enjoy reading your thoughts and opinions Morgana. And i do hope they build it soon so we can fight side by side one day.

But I think in this case the answers are so varied that there can't even be a concensus. I guess the main reason I decided to reply was to remind you that Uhall doesn't speak for us all. I think the true player base is a silent majority. Most days I feel like I'm playing monopoly online...it's all about getting stuff and making millions upon millions.

But I got off track of your question, in general I don't engage in much combat at all anymore since AOS. But i do have a home in fel, my crafter dies there often. And sometimes my archer well go back and seek a little justice. And my sword wielding thief can sometimes be found hunting in the old dungeons in fel. So I don't agressively seek out confrontation, but I don't hide from it and I'm willing to die to another player when the occassion arises.
Don't know if that helps you out or not, but that's how I play.

 

[Evlar]

[YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TZtiJN6yiik&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TZtiJN6yiik&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

rolleyes: :gun:

 

[Guido_LS]

[YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TZtiJN6yiik&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TZtiJN6yiik&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

rolleyes: :gun:

I see your 80's feel good wuss video and raise you cheesy 90's remake with cute animals!

[YOUTUBE]RYLsyNBnE5M[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Ok...cutest video ever. You win.

 

[Serafi]

I have been reading this thread with interest, and thought I would add my 2 cents as well. However - I am not really sure on your intent for the thread Morgana, or rather the openness or lack thereof you meet the answers with. You see, when people post that they don`t pvp because of:

...The posters that went into the "I don't like PvP because all of the PvPers are 13 year old jerks that want to ruin the game for everyone else" posts, that's exactly what they are doing...shutting down, becoming defensive, and not being honest with us, or themselves.

.. that IS their reason and it is as much a valid reason as any other. Sure, there may be other reasons as well, but since that is what they choose to write one must gather that is their main reason. Who are you to tell they are not being "honest"?

Me: I didn`t start playing UO until the facet-split. I choose not to, since I knew I wouldn`t be enjoying myself at all. I read tons of posts on usenet describing what went on, and wouldn`t touch UO with a stick back then. Eventually I decided to join with LBR. For me the main reason to wait was choice. I want to be in charge of my own playtime. Since then I have rp-pvp´ed which I enjoyed immensly, I have been doing Fel Idocs and had a blast, done Em events in Fel, and all my resource gathering is done in Fel as well. But I don`t pvp on a regular basis. Here are my reasons, in no particular order:

Incentive
I need a bigger reason to pvp than just to "beat the other guy". I have no interest in that, it doesn`t give me anything worthwhile. I don`t play UO to compete. Yew Fel pvp is to me as interesting as watching paint dry. Rp-pvp provides the overall reason to some extent, IC you are fighting for your home, your beliefs etc. It sets the rp-pvp apart from any other pvp that occurs. I haven`t tried factions - but from what I gather it`s the same there. No overall goal, no story.

Time
Even if there was an incentive for me to partake in pvp on a regular basis, I am not sure I would have anyway. Reason is invested playtime. To be good in pvp you need to devote time in it, and since I sometimes have little time to play I choose to spend that time on things that interest me more. Whatever choices I make in UO I need to invest time, be it crafting, imbuing, decorating, vendoring, hunting or whatever. My allotted playtime is limited and I don`t even have time enough for all the things that do interest me. I still haven`t "finished" the added content of ML for example. In that competition of things to do, pvp is way down on the list. Especially since it would probably require more time for me than someone who were a bit younger.

Reason to play
I play UO because I need to place my brain somewhere else than RL, a place to rest where it`s focused on other things for awhile. It`s pure relaxation. I don`t need an adrenaline rush, I am not looking for a kick. I need a place where I can put my hat down, put my feet on the table and be completly focused on whatever task I set out to do. The goal isn`t really an item chase, the ultimate playgoal is the relaxation the playtime gives me. The stressing down from RL demands. In that, pvp is counter productive. While it is a real focusdrive, it also adds stress and adrenaline.

Carebear
I am, and proud of it to. I wouldn`t dream of imposing my play on anyone. If I did pvp I wouldn`t go after crafters or anyone just visiting Fel. It would be more fun to me if I pvp`ed with people with the same mindset.

Pvp-crowd
I am appalled by the trash talking that goes on, the immaturity on display, the pissing contests. Whether or not they are all 13 year olds doesn`t matter, as long as I feel that is what they show their maturity level as. So, even if I did find time, did have an incentive to pvp on a regular basis - if that were the crowd I would have to associate myself with I would decline. You meet some of it even in rp-pvp. The competitive aspect of pvp seems to bring out the worst in people. I have no desire to let trash talking be a major part of my UO experience.

Added note: However, I like that there is the option of pvp in UO, I view the facet split as the most enjoyable pvp-solution in all the games I have played. It adds another dimension, an added choice. I don`t have problems with events being played out in Fel, but I do think quest chains that takes place there need to be carefully laid out. I think the book added as nr 9 in the recent quest chain has to be the worst design choice in history. Not because it was placed in Fel, but because the placement just was an incentive for griefing. I attended another Fel event this winter, where we had to fight some dragons and our opponents were reds. I had a blast there, with a huge open space to fight in, completing what we set out to do while fending off the roaming reds. The static books in Fel was just a poor design choice.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Excellent post Serafi!

I'd like to explain my earlier comment about people not being honest...I didn't mean to imply that they were lying, or being "dishonest"...I just meant that they were not explaining in enough detail essentially.

Let me explain with an example. I won't pick anyone's post, but just use a hypothetical:

The poster responds "I don't like PvP, and I think all of the people that PvP behave like 13 year olds. PvP is pointless and I can't understand for the life of me why anyone would subject themselves to it and waste their valuable time doing it"

The poster has made his or her opinions about PvP very clear, but the thing they did not share is why they feel that way. Does that make sense?

If the poster had said "I don't like PvP. Every time I tried to participate in PvP in the past, there were always like 6 players that ganked me. How can I be expected to compete in that environment? Also, in the game now, the items make all the difference, and I don't have the time or desire to put together some PvP suit that will cost me millions of gold".

That is a valid explanation. It might not be an opinion that everyone shares, but the poster said he or she didn't like it and went on to say why.

In your case, you stated, very clearly, your reasons for not enjoying PvP. I don't think that anyone could read what you posted, and not understand why you don't engage in PvP.

That's what I meant by that statement. It has nothing to do with whether the reasons given are valid, or whether I agree with them, it has to do whether reasons were give at all.

 

[Bullseye_of_Atl]

I chose the last choice. PvP doesn't do anything for me. No rush, no excitement, quite boring actually.

The kids these days, or adults acting like kids, seriously, who needs it? We get enough of that in real life. Then there's the pk's....only reminds me of the gang bangers here in the windy city.

I, like others use UO as a temporary escape from real life. To sit and relax, for even just an hour a day. After working 8-9 hrs a day 40 plus stories up, walking on double rebar all day, then fighting downtown traffic to get home and relax, who needs a bunch of kids messing with your mindset......I'm waiting for Test Drine Unlimited 2, and /or Need for speed world to come out......there's my adrenaline rush.

I have seen the difference. Online racing, especially with a car you built,......the speed, the turns, and we're not talking that nascar going circles stuff. Race to beat a time.....there's a rush. UO is a relaxiation thing, a time to kick back and take it easy.

Trammie, sure I am, so what? Carebear, i'll put a carebear decal on my hardhat too, and you know what? The guys in the other trades wouldn't think or say squat about it.

Hey, pvp's not for everyone, nor does it have the same effect on everyone.

That's all I have to say about that.

 

[Clair The Mystic]

I go to Fel all the time. There are parts of the game that I really enjoy there that I can’t find anywhere else. That being said, I do not go there looking to PvP. There is, and always has been, a segment of the PvP crowd that participates in PvP to grieve others. They PvP because they see it as an opportunity to inflict emotional distress on other human beings. I don’t mind dyeing, and I love to hear the PvP folks talking trash to each other in global chat. I will also fight to defend myself and what I see as mine. But I don’t seek out open PvP opportunities because I don’t want to feed the sickness and hate that is behind the PvP Grieving of others. I think this sick, sadistic behavior is why Trammel became necessary. I think it’s why many of the very rich and capable people in UO choose not to go to Fel. This does not describe all PvP folks, but it describes enough.

 

[Coppelia]

I'm striken by fear and can't move when a player attacks me! That's why I play Lineage II. Oh wait...





I enjoy RP PvP, in GM gear, with a RP goal, organized and with cohortes, even though Powerscrolls are teh win in Rp PvP and I don't like that. It's a lot of fun together.

I tried PvP not so long ago (before imbuing, when faction were starting to get some love again), and I bought the gear I could for my scribe mage, but seeing how I didn't do enough damage faster enough and how archers were changing me into a murky pool of blood with skewers, I just left it to the "pro".
Frankly, "it's not the same", I didn't follow the artifactization and that's it. And I'm not really interrested in the deathmatch Felucca became.

 

[BajaElladan]

Hail Folks,

I have read the Original Post and all of the replies. And I have given the question much consideration.

When Ultima Online Launched in Sept 1997 3 or 4 of my real life friends had already participated in Beta and where then playing the publicly released game. They, and I, all played Dungeons and Dragons together and they knew I loved Betrayal at Krondor and Diablo, and they believed I would love UO.

They had played the Ultima PC games but I had not. I loved Sosaria from the moment I arrived. So many choices. So many skills to choose from. I had a char you could have called Jack (of all trades) long before EA decided we humans all had that ability. My friends and I met others and made new online, UO, friends quickly. We formed a Guild. Our main interest was in exploring Sosaria, growing our wealth, and raising our skills. We had no real interest in fighting, let alone killing, other players characters. Every now and then another player char would attack one of us. More often than not, we prevailed. When we died we regrouped and moved on. We provided aid to those less able to fend for themselves.

Over time most who sought out player versus player combat learned it was NOT in their interest to attack our merry band of brothers and we were able to focus on our own chosen interests. Sadly, real life managed to slowly call away my real life friends. I also was noticing a growing number of UO friends were disappearing.

I met a char who was "visiting" my shard. This char was from the recently opened shard of Baja. We became friends and I created a Char on Baja myself. Initially I was a Magical Miner Macer. I worked hard in my real life, socialized, and still found a little time each week for Ultima. PvP still existed but PKers (player killers), gankers and griefers were on the rise. Over time it was clear more players were leaving than were joining Ultima Online. It was becoming common for someone to be killed, looted of the only armor and weapons they owned, while on their way to place either their first house or an upgraded model, the deed which was also now looted and gone. Worse still, many were having their house keys stolen and everything they owned stolen as well.

I knew Miners who dared not use a pack animal, some who even placed their ore and ingots on the ground instead of their back packs in hopes PK's would just take their hard earned minerals but leave them alive (fat chance).

Even as I was playing less and less (while paying exactly the same) and as I was seriously considering quitting UO, word was released that New Lands were soon to be opened up.

Trammel was Born!

Freedom from PvPers, PKillers, Gankers, Griefers, Thieves, etc.!

I moved to Trammel immediately. Since then, Felucca not only continued its decline, but at a greatly quickened pace.

Now, Trammel isn't perfect. Isn't without its flaws and frustrations. But Trammel's worst day is infinitely better and more preferable than Felucca's best day ever was!

The Original Poster may seek to interpret my choices thru any of many psycho babble filters. But if s/he truly seeks to understand "UO Players," s/he needs to accept that many, most in fact, do not enjoy ever setting foot into Felucca. Some do. But most don't.

As another poster pointed out, some of those who left Felucca by choice, fail to understand, may even become displeased, by clear and continuous attempts by EA Staff, developers, GM's and EM's to increase rewards for those in Felucca in an unfair and biased manner, and in endlessly futile attempts to lure players into Felucca.

I know of no one, ever, trying to lure Feluccans (felons as I call them) out of Felucca.

We all know, and hopefully are able to understand that EA operates as a "for profit" business. And while its behavior toward, and treatment of, its paying customers is the worst I have ever encountered or even heard of, it still seems to understand that most of its paying customers prefer any facet over Felucca.

Hopefully this provides the "better understanding" the Original Poster seeks.

Elladan of Baja

 

[Evlar]

I see your 80's feel good wuss video and raise you cheesy 90's remake with cute animals!

[YOUTUBE]RYLsyNBnE5M[/YOUTUBE]

Actually, I never liked that song. It always made my gorge rise for some reason

Nothing wrong with the sentiment though

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Hail Folks,

I have read the Original Post and all of the replies. And I have given the question much consideration.

When Ultima Online Launched in Sept 1997 3 or 4 of my real life friends had already participated in Beta and where then playing the publicly released game. They, and I, all played Dungeons and Dragons together and they knew I loved Betrayal at Krondor and Diablo, and they believed I would love UO.

They had played the Ultima PC games but I had not. I loved Sosaria from the moment I arrived. So many choices. So many skills to choose from. I had a char you could have called Jack (of all trades) long before EA decided we humans all had that ability. My friends and I met others and made new online, UO, friends quickly. We formed a Guild. Our main interest was in exploring Sosaria, growing our wealth, and raising our skills. We had no real interest in fighting, let alone killing, other players characters. Every now and then another player char would attack one of us. More often than not, we prevailed. When we died we regrouped and moved on. We provided aid to those less able to fend for themselves.

Over time most who sought out player versus player combat learned it was NOT in their interest to attack our merry band of brothers and we were able to focus on our own chosen interests. Sadly, real life managed to slowly call away my real life friends. I also was noticing a growing number of UO friends were disappearing.

I met a char who was "visiting" my shard. This char was from the recently opened shard of Baja. We became friends and I created a Char on Baja myself. Initially I was a Magical Miner Macer. I worked hard in my real life, socialized, and still found a little time each week for Ultima. PvP still existed but PKers (player killers), gankers and griefers were on the rise. Over time it was clear more players were leaving than were joining Ultima Online. It was becoming common for someone to be killed, looted of the only armor and weapons they owned, while on their way to place either their first house or an upgraded model, the deed which was also now looted and gone. Worse still, many were having their house keys stolen and everything they owned stolen as well.

I knew Miners who dared not use a pack animal, some who even placed their ore and ingots on the ground instead of their back packs in hopes PK's would just take their hard earned minerals but leave them alive (fat chance).

Even as I was playing less and less (while paying exactly the same) and as I was seriously considering quitting UO, word was released that New Lands were soon to be opened up.

Trammel was Born!

Freedom from PvPers, PKillers, Gankers, Griefers, Thieves, etc.!

I moved to Trammel immediately. Since then, Felucca not only continued its decline, but at a greatly quickened pace.

Now, Trammel isn't perfect. Isn't without its flaws and frustrations. But Trammel's worst day is infinitely better and more preferable than Felucca's best day ever was!

The Original Poster may seek to interpret my choices thru any of many psycho babble filters. But if s/he truly seeks to understand "UO Players," s/he needs to accept that many, most in fact, do not enjoy ever setting foot into Felucca. Some do. But most don't.

As another poster pointed out, some of those who left Felucca by choice, fail to understand, may even become displeased, by clear and continuous attempts by EA Staff, developers, GM's and EM's to increase rewards for those in Felucca in an unfair and biased manner, and in endlessly futile attempts to lure players into Felucca.

I know of no one, ever, trying to lure Feluccans (felons as I call them) out of Felucca.

We all know, and hopefully are able to understand that EA operates as a "for profit" business. And while its behavior toward, and treatment of, its paying customers is the worst I have ever encountered or even heard of, it still seems to understand that most of its paying customers prefer any facet over Felucca.

Hopefully this provides the "better understanding" the Original Poster seeks.

Elladan of Baja

It's she actually...and I detect a note of cynicism in your post. Sorry if I have done or said something to offend you...but as I have stated before, my purpose in starting this thread was twofold. 1. To better understand the playerbase, and 2. To allow people to express their reasons for liking/disliking PvP.

As I stated above, the primary conclusion I have drawn from my "psycho babble filters" is that the current playerbase of Ultima Online, at least on the current production shards, does not view open-PvP as desirable.

No need for veiled insults and hostility.

 

[Coppelia]

As I stated above, the primary conclusion I have drawn from my "psycho babble filters" is that the current playerbase of Ultima Online, at least on the current production shards, does not view open-PvP as desirable.

That's something totally different. I love open PvP! I'm playing Lineage II. But in UO the problem is that the criminal system is very bad. There would need a lot of changes on the looting/insurance system to have a solid foundation for a working criminal system, and so open PvP. Felucca is a total crap.

Siege could be interresting, but no house for me, only one character, nobody there at the hours I'm playing... I tried but if I don't go there that's not because I'm killed too often that's because there's nobody and I've never been killed.

So it's not a problem of open PvP for me, it's a problem of UO mechanics.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

That's something totally different. I love open PvP! I'm playing Lineage II. But in UO the problem is that the criminal system is very bad. There would need a lot of changes on the looting/insurance system to have a solid foundation for a working criminal system, and so open PvP. Felucca is a total crap.

Siege could be interresting, but no house for me, only one character, nobody there at the hours I'm playing... I tried but if I don't go there that's not because I'm killed too often that's because there's nobody and I've never been killed.

So it's not a problem of open PvP for me, it's a problem of UO mechanics.

Good point. And I should point out, when I say things like "the playerbase, as a whole" I don't mean every single player, but the general consensus of the majority of players.

 

[Evlar]

That's something totally different. I love open PvP! I'm playing Lineage II. But in UO the problem is that the criminal system is very bad. There would need a lot of changes on the looting/insurance system to have a solid foundation for a working criminal system, and so open PvP. Felucca is a total crap.

Siege could be interresting, but no house for me, only one character, nobody there at the hours I'm playing... I tried but if I don't go there that's not because I'm killed too often that's because there's nobody and I've never been killed.

So it's not a problem of open PvP for me, it's a problem of UO mechanics.

You know, I wouldn't mind at all with a classic shard (there you go, hands up... I've said it... ), that it could be used to refine the entire PvP system for the game as a whole.

Let's forget the whole "it'll take time away from dev efforts on prodo shards" debate for one second and think about it for a moment.

One aspect of having a classic shard that many have been interested in, aside from not having AoS, is to see what could have been, had different decisions and implementations been made other than splitting facets.

Call it a trade-off. Perhaps classic shards could be the place where different justice systems amongst other things, could be experimented with, where there would be a sizeable enough population playing (hopefully), to see if different concepts actually work, or not.

If it can provide solutions to age old problems with the game as a whole, that's surely not a bad thing, right?

 

[Nexus]

You know, I wouldn't mind at all with a classic shard (there you go, hands up... I've said it... ), that it could be used to refine the entire PvP system for the game as a whole.

Let's forget the whole "it'll take time away from dev efforts on prodo shards" debate for one second and think about it for a moment.

One aspect of having a classic shard that many have been interested in, aside from not having AoS, is to see what could have been, had different decisions and implementations been made other than splitting facets.

Call it a trade-off. Perhaps classic shards could be the place where different justice systems amongst other things, could be experimented with, where there would be a sizeable enough population playing (hopefully), to see if different concepts actually work, or not.

If it can provide solutions to age old problems with the game as a whole, that's surely not a bad thing, right?

That's opening a whole new can of worms. Granted I'm not against a Classic Shard, I'm just against many of the more vocal members of the debates vision of a Classic Shard....

But no they couldn't possibly use a Classic Shard as a proving ground for standard production. The entire mechanics of the game are different, just because it works without AoS does not mean it will work with AoS and vice versa. If AoS hadn't happened insurance would most likely never have been introduced, I mean why worry when you can replace a suit for 5-10k?, see what I'm saying? It's like trying to compare Apples to Pears, yea they are related, but the flavor really isn't the same.

 

[Evlar]

You know, I wouldn't mind at all with a classic shard (there you go, hands up... I've said it... ), that it could be used to refine the entire PvP system for the game as a whole.

Let's forget the whole "it'll take time away from dev efforts on prodo shards" debate for one second and think about it for a moment.

One aspect of having a classic shard that many have been interested in, aside from not having AoS, is to see what could have been, had different decisions and implementations been made other than splitting facets.

Call it a trade-off. Perhaps classic shards could be the place where different justice systems amongst other things, could be experimented with, where there would be a sizeable enough population playing (hopefully), to see if different concepts actually work, or not.

If it can provide solutions to age old problems with the game as a whole, that's surely not a bad thing, right?

That's opening a whole new can of worms. Granted I'm not against a Classic Shard, I'm just against many of the more vocal members of the debates vision of a Classic Shard....

But no they couldn't possibly use a Classic Shard as a proving ground for standard production. The entire mechanics of the game are different, just because it works without AoS does not mean it will work with AoS and vice versa. If AoS hadn't happened insurance would most likely never have been introduced, I mean why worry when you can replace a suit for 5-10k?, see what I'm saying? It's like trying to compare Apples to Pears, yea they are related, but the flavor really isn't the same.

I can see your point entirely. Especially perhaps regarding the validity of anything tested with or without AoS implementations.

Quite simply, AoS changed the entire direction and mechanics of the game.

Perhaps certain elements could be beneficial though? Core elements of PvP that matter with or without AoS being a difference.

I don't know really. I'm trying my best to think of the bigger picture, that benefits all players of all preference, regardless of which "opinion" camp they lean towards.

Perhaps I'm also trying to think of reasons to justify classic shards to those who are dead against them, for whatever reason they choose, when perhaps I shouldn't really have to. I've played the game and paid my way as long as, or longer than in some cases, others here.

Perhaps PvP content in online games will never be more than a niche. Perhaps it would be better to remove it completely from productions shards? I wouldn't advocate that of course, because that removes an important element from the game... choice.

The old cogs keep turning and I keep thinking of different ideas. Probably indicates, if nothing else, that I care about the game enough to give such things some thought.