Understanding Your Fellow Players

[Aurelius]

Before the split, I remember that Shame on Europa was effectively "ruled" by a role-playing PK (Photek, I seem to recall was his name). Because he observed respect and his own rules, it was often quite enjoyable when he suddenly appeared and you had to fight for your life.

Yep, it was Photek, and the guild 'Photek's Thugs and Brigands' - they claimed control of Shame and unless you paid them a 'tax' to hunt there would kill you, and I seem to remember they also killed anyone else attacked the NPC brigands at the Yew camp.

Funnily enough, he was also my neighbour at Deepwater player town....

 

[Stupid Miner]

I prefer friendly competition, this includes some PvP combat, but it really doesn't include Felucca PvP.
I don't enjoy or feel the need to assert my dominance over other people, which is what most Feluccan PvP seems to be about.

I like winning, but I don't like making the other person lose.

 

[Wilde1]

My problem with UO-style pvp is that there is no means of separating the beginning pvper from the vet. Times when I have tried to work up a pvp character, I was a novice pvper fighting against players with thousands of kills who all know each other and have played for years, and who's set up was better (10s of millions in gear, macros). I've enjoyed pvp in every other mmo I've played. I just dont have the patience for the steep learning curve. Add in the juvenile crap-talk of 20-25% of those pvpers and it just isnt fun.

 

[MalagAste]

I used to enjoy PvP... Loved it infact...

But then it became a cheaters game...

As well it seems to me that everyone is using some gimpplate...

Potting like mad, using the JOAT so that they can have the benefit of level 6 regens using spellweaving... coupled with putting on this jewelery and that item to raise all their stats and things to god like levels.... Joining factions just to get the L33T gear... putting more mathematical calculation into their templates and suits than a scientist at NASA... to the point I just don't give a F*** anymore... it's taken all the fun out it...

 

[Phineas le Monge]

PVP in the old days in Fel was a necessity. As has been stated, you had good guys and bad guys. But since all these uber items and super uber templates - I just can't compete and don't want to. Dueling and sparring, I loved that. Defending your guild against a rival, great fun. Getting killed by a stealth archer before the sound of my "recall" has even finished - or standing in a "blood puddle" over a corpse I didn't have time to read the name of? I don't like that at all. One or two hit kills are rediculous and a waste of my time, no matter which end I'm on. That's not PVP, that's straight up murder. Battle should be about skill, startegy, and out-witting your opponent, not look how many uber items I've stacked on this mega-template. I enjoy a sandbox, but so do all the "cats" in the neighborhood. Be careful where you dig...

 

[Coldren]

I'd like to point out, there is no - "I do not PvP, but I recognize it's place in a true Virtual World".

I never did PvP much. I guess if I had to chose, it'd be because I didn't feel I could compete. Don't have the mindset - I'm largely a crafter.

However, when it was free for all, it, to me, made the world feel alive. Dangerous. Real.

I recognize the importance it played in how Sosaria used to feel as a world to me, even if I didn't participate in it actively or willingly.

All that being said, I would actively try to PvP more if there was actually a reason to. Pointless PvP, without real direction (I'm a goal-oriented person, not a competitive or item-driven player), isn't my thing. If it were, I'd play FPS'.

If PvP had a goal, something to strive for, even if I'm terrible at it, I still like the strive to reach a goal. Hence, why I loved DAoC, even though I was terrible at it.

 

[Calliope]

I PvP'd extensively before AoS, my guild was one of the first into factions, after being both Order and Chaos.
Now I still PvP every day but, like others, it's RP PvP. There are strict rules about equipment and skills that ensure balance, and of course it's consensual.

 

[Hildebrand]

This is a great discussion and everyone pretty much explained my thoughts too.
I picked choice 2
1) I like sparring and stuff with friends
2) If guild or allies have a pvp event I'm definitely there.
3) If I'm out resource gathering I'm not geared for pvp therefore shy away.
4)random pvp has no purpose as is now so it's not pulling me.
5)cheating sucks
6)pvp is expensive

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Here is WHY I dont PvP?

There is no value to it. If I get killed I lose nothing but what 2k? If I kill them, I dont want the gold. It is stupid murderes are insured. I want loot.


If I get killed Im rezzed in 60 seconds. If I kill them they are out 2k and rezzed and fighting again.

PvP isnt unbalanced. There is no consequence. There is no value. There is no risk, reward or purpose.

Now in saying that, it is fun to spare and duel. That is, however, not want UO PvP is about.

The fix. You attack, you die, youre out of them game for 30 minutes. Spare me the whinning. You load another characture and go.

Raven

 

[Theo_GL]

Here is WHY I dont PvP?

There is no value to it. If I get killed I lose nothing but what 2k? If I kill them, I dont want the gold. It is stupid murderes are insured. I want loot.


If I get killed Im rezzed in 60 seconds. If I kill them they are out 2k and rezzed and fighting again.

PvP isnt unbalanced. There is no consequence. There is no value. There is no risk, reward or purpose.

Now in saying that, it is fun to spare and duel. That is, however, not want UO PvP is about.

The fix. You attack, you die, youre out of them game for 30 minutes. Spare me the whinning. You load another characture and go.

Raven

+1

Risk/reward? There is no risk and no reward in PvP so what is the point?

I will never understand the attraction of the crowd that stands around yew gate day in and day out dodging guardzones and ducking into houses to fight the same people over and over. What is the accompishment?

Seems equivalent to working on a factory production line day in and day out.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

+1

Risk/reward? There is no risk and no reward in PvP so what is the point?

I will never understand the attraction of the crowd that stands around yew gate day in and day out dodging guardzones and ducking into houses to fight the same people over and over. What is the accompishment?

Seems equivalent to working on a factory production line day in and day out.

EXACTLY. Why even have death. Just run around and shock each other with Tazers.

Until there is a consequence for death. PvP will be what you described.

Champ Spawns suck cause everyone gets rezzed. Banish the aggressors that get killed.

Anything.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Here is WHY I dont PvP?

There is no value to it. If I get killed I lose nothing but what 2k? If I kill them, I dont want the gold. It is stupid murderes are insured. I want loot.


If I get killed Im rezzed in 60 seconds. If I kill them they are out 2k and rezzed and fighting again.

PvP isnt unbalanced. There is no consequence. There is no value. There is no risk, reward or purpose.

Now in saying that, it is fun to spare and duel. That is, however, not want UO PvP is about.

The fix. You attack, you die, youre out of them game for 30 minutes. Spare me the whinning. You load another characture and go.

Raven

I feel pretty much the same way about it.

Back before the split, and AoS, when you went out hunting reds (or blues if you were a PK), you understood that there was a risk to what you were doing. Beyond that, there was also a sense of purpose for those of us that were hunting reds.

When I would die hunting reds, I didn't take it personally, but I did try and learn from the experience. I would lose everything I had on me, and get rez'ed, then spend a few minutes re-gearing at the bank or my tower. I can't say it was BIG difference, but now when you die, insurance kicks in, you rez, re-equip on the spot, and you are back in the fight.

I guess to me, knowing that I put a red in stat loss (or that he was going to have to UM for a while) was the reward I got for killing someone that had victimized other players for profit. I rarely kept the loot of a red...normally, I would give that to new guildies or new players in town.

But now, it seems that PvP is just running around and fighting each other with no real purpose.

However, I understand S!ckLoveR's points. For players that enjoy PvP, it is just a part of the game they enjoy. The challenge is higher, and I have seen, to an extent, a community that has formed in Fel amongst PvPers. Last year, I spent some time PvPing with a guildmate and an allied guild in Fel...and I think the thing that struck me about it was that no one was getting PO'ed about dying. Red, blue, didn't matter. While I thought it was fun to test my skill against other players...I got bored of it pretty quickly because I felt that it didn't mean anything. That's something that *I* have to deal with. The old days of meaningful, socially impactful, PvP are gone.

I am really glad that so many have responded to this thread without it turning into a bash-fest. I think the posts by both PvPers and non-PvPers have helped me to better understand both sides of the coin.

 

[Evlar]

I enjoy PvP!

...but there has to be a point to it.

That is to say, I enjoy participating in group PvP, where everyone is fully aware of what's going on and what the aims are.

Those aims could be factions, order/chaos, guild wars, champion spawns, idocs, duels.

Something else, having had a red roleplayer PK character many moons ago... is communication and interaction. I never once PK'd another player whilst playing my red, without challenging them first. Any time I used my red, it was with the consent of the opposing player, within a role-playing setting.

Quite often, I would be the fox that the pack of hounds would chase. On occasion, I would even carry additional rewards with me, which if I was caught and killed, the victorious opponents would "win". It was great fun and there was never any pancakes or smack talk.

Killing for killings sake never appealed to me particular. I never saw any point to griefing another player. If they didn't want to participate, the choice was entirely theirs. Unfortunately, not everyone had the luxury of choice.

I've always believed that the biggest cause of grief was down to perhaps a small minority of players on each shard, who did nothing but grief other players.

The situation reminds me of football hooliganism in some respects. The proportion of hooligans in football has always been a miniscule proportion of those who attend football matches throughout the world. When action is taken to prevent or punish hooliganism, either fair or heavy handed, it's actually the genuine followers of the sport who are penalised the most.

For my own part, as someone who enjoyed PvP greatly as part of a "game", something that wasn't intended to be serious but fun, with other consenting players, it has been ruined by those who feel the need to grief, annoy, cheat or take things entirely personally.

Is there a solution to be rid of such players? Sadly, I don't believe there is. Likewise though, I don't believe that the evolution of UO has particularly handled things well.

I actually think the majority of genuine PvP'ers have suffered more loss in this game, than the unwilling victims of non-consenting player killers. The victims were provided with Trammel, the PvP'ers with Felucca. Sadly, the genuine PvP'ers still have to put up with the griefers and cheats, because effectively they've been packaged into the same box. Some have put up with this, many have not and simply quit playing UO altogether.

It's no real surprise that there has been such interest in former players, at the possibility of a classic option for UO. In my personal opinion, I actually don't believe cheats and griefers will be as big a problem on a classic shard as some seem to think it might. I also don't believe there will be many player-killer style griefers.

I do believe that the shard will be populated mainly by players who are fully aware of the open, single facet PvP environment. The majority of those players will have experienced PvP to some extent. They will therefore be prepared. There will likely be no "victims", simply because every victim will be capable of fighting back and potentially winning such encounters, certainly against the types of players who prey on "weaker" victims.

Finally, I don't believe such a shard will be populated by players with a desire for 100% PvP all of the time. There will be plenty of scope for all styles of play. There will be a need for crafters, gatherers, PvM'ers, role-players, etc.

The only down-side that I see particularly, is that given such an environment wouldn't be entirely welcoming or indeed, appealing to griefers, they'll likely remain on the production shards. Why? Because they have an audience of players they know full well they can and will continue to annoy. That's quite simply how they seem to get their jollies. They'll have to work exceptionally hard for that on any classic shard, which is another reason they'll likely not move, because the shard itself won't be an easy ride.

 

[Beer_Cayse]

... The only down-side that I see particularly, is that given such an environment wouldn't be entirely welcoming or indeed, appealing to griefers, they'll likely remain on the production shards. Why? Because they have an audience of players they know full well they can and will continue to annoy. That's quite simply how they seem to get their jollies. They'll have to work exceptionally hard for that on any classic shard, which is another reason they'll likely not move, because the shard itself won't be an easy ride.

Ummm, this might wel be why Siege has quite the dedicated and vocal folks on the boards <looks toward Kelmo, Petra and others>.

I played on FS early on and we did RP where I dirtnapped as often as anyone else. I played pre-Tram (Pac, Atl) and certainly got my rear handed to me more than once ... but also did my share of at least nailing those who stole from me! <shrug>

But todays "game" is way out of my league in costs alone for the gear as I only play for maybe a couple hours on nights I do play. Just not enough to rack up serious cash income.

S!icklover made a very good post and even though I don't PvP I agree with his entire post.

This has to be one of the most (to me) productive and interesting threads in a long time.

 

[Tazar]

Hmmm....

I have not read the whole thread... but as to the original question...

1.) Cheating is a major factor in why I slowed down on PVP years ago... and it's only gotten worse since then.

2.) I really just don't enjoy it anymore. Part of this is due to the cheating, part is due to the pure childishness, and part is because my friends do not enjoy it.

3.) While I am not that old, I have had a heart attack and really do not need the adrenalin rush/stress on my system. Work is quite stressful enough (and no, I don't mean modding u-hall there. ) so I prefer a quieter relaxing play-experience.

 

[Aibal]

I would say I don't for none of the reasons listed above. I have PvP'ed in the past, played factions, and still live in Fel. However, I really don't enjoy PvP that is unbalanced from the standpoint of items/templates/skills etc. Also, trying to play a mage when you ping 100+ to a shard is exceedingly difficult to put it mildly...you're at an immedieate disadvantage to players with better connections. When I want to PvP, I fire up COD MW2, RVS, BF or CS and actually play FPS style, skills/templates are more uniform, and the game revolves more around skill (although, yes, connection/ping etc. matter, but not to the same degree).

 

[Violence]

Assuming Stratics represents the majority of the players for arguement's sake, I just wish to add that I personally see options 1 and 3 as actually a single option. Cheating is something we cannot control, it is an external factor, a freak occurence, if you know what I mean. rolleyes:
So if this was a sports game's out-come I'd consider it 42-45(up until this reply is visible) in favour of players who would not PVP at all.

Therefore(again, that's just how I view things) I cannot agree and never could, with the notion that PVP is dead or that PVPers are vastly out-numbered by PVMers.

Just felt like sharing this.

Admittedly I would never assume that if this poll was run directly within Ultima Online during game-time on the most populated server at this time, the "score" then might have been in favour of the PVP crowd.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I know from long and sad experience that my answer to these questions would take up more space than most people would want to read.

-Galen's player

 

[northwoodschopper]

i enjoy pvp, though admittingly, i do not public pvp at all anymore. the quality is just crap. guild pvp is still fine since cheating/exploiting/greifing/bad behavior can be addressed. actually the pvp is really fun.

 

[Storm]

Hmmm....

I have not read the whole thread... but as to the original question...

1.) Cheating is a major factor in why I slowed down on PVP years ago... and it's only gotten worse since then.

2.) I really just don't enjoy it anymore. Part of this is due to the cheating, part is due to the pure childishness, and part is because my friends do not enjoy it.

3.) While I am not that old, I have had a heart attack and really do not need the adrenalin rush/stress on my system. Work is quite stressful enough (and no, I don't mean modding u-hall there. ) so I prefer a quieter relaxing play-experience.

these are pretty much my reasons also (well no heart attack yet but dont need more stress)

also my internet connection does not allow for competitive pvp

And the big one for me is the Childishness of some players that makes it not enjoyable!

for some reason I don't see this (at least not much ) in pvm!

 

[Basara]

You can tell the poll was written by someone who PvPs...


I had to choose the last answer.

My reason is this.

I find non-consensual PvP morally and ethically repugnant, both in light of what the virtues from the Ultima stand-alone games stood for, and from the fact that before UO, I played several different MUDs (strangely enough, I was mostly playing Australian-based ones, living in the US).

Of those MUDs, all of them had vibrant, interactive, communities. That is, they did, until a vocal minority got the MUD owners to instigate PvP (be it level-based or guild-based - note that this was forced on guilds already in existence). In each case, the MUD was near-deserted within a week, and gone in less than a month.

Note, though, that I consider Fel Champ Spawns and Factions to be consensual PvP, of sorts, and have no problems with them (and on rare occasion will attempt a Fel spawn). Focused PvP areas are a great thing - I just don't think it should a facet-wide thing, where one can go around preying on crafters or those deliberately not participating in the matter. If one wants to play SP, fine - that's a form of consent to PvP as well.

It's one of the reasons I would never have played pre-Tram UO, and most of the people I know personally that played it pre-Tram QUIT because of it, and to this day won't look at the game again because of the way other players treated them. They could care less about graphics (we're talking people who routinely replay X-Com/UFO, Jagged Alliance 2, Fallout, and MOO2, and prefer games with overhead views like UO), and the change in game systems isn't an issue - it's ENTIRELY based on how the PKs made them feel unwelcome in the game. It's that kind of community-destruction mentality that makes me think that most people talking about "the good old days before Trammel" need to be in a padded cell somewhere, without internet access.

 

[NuSair]

There are many reasons I don't PvP anymore. But could only select one from the list.

Mostly, I don't PvP because of the rampant cheating.

Also because there are times when I just don't want to. Back before Tram, I would go hunt X, and if I pk came up, i'd just leave.

That is something that I had a problem with since UO's inception. If I chose to go and do something, why should someone who just wants to be a prick be able ruin my play experience. They want to PvP and are getting to do what they want at the cost of my enjoyment? WTF ever.

When Tram came about, if I felt like PvPing, I'd go to fel. If not, I'd stay in Tram.

I do not care for non-consentual pvp and feel that is one of UO's biggest drawbacks.

Then after Tram opened up and I really got into other aspects of the game, the cheating/hacking that was going on in PvP finally hit my last nerve.

Now, the only time I go to fel is to help guildies at a champ spawn or to shop at NPC vendors.

 

[Purple Dragon]

"I do not PvP and I don't think any of the reasons above apply to me."

That is the best one to apply to my reasons. When UO first launched it was a different type of PvP and I actually found it exciting when I would be out doing something and a Red or Grey appeared on the screen. For the first few years I thought it was good but when I left in mid 2000 it was starting to change. When I returned this year (just a short 10 year break) for all the neat and interesting changes that UO received over the years PvP went sour to me

The main reasons for me are the "attitude" of most of the people that do it, on my shard anyway. It is all characters named "i OWnZed j00" or "Suck it" or "Poop this or that" and they all run around yelling things that make zero sense. Gone are the days of PvP Reds being named "Murderous Mal" or "Jeb the Wicked" or anything like that. Where they would kill you fairly or you killed them, followed by a loot and scoot, no ganking or rez killing.The hacks are obvious when you see a character flying by with speed or obviously scripting are another big turn off. To me it just seems Fellucia is a box for hyper, angry kids to go do whatever they want and feel good about themselves. I am not saying this applies to everyone that lives in Fellucia but it is really all I have seen

On top of all that there is no RvR with it any more. With item insurance and the stat not being what it was it is a Counter Strike gank fest. Because 8 people slaughtering 1 lone person is, well, fun I guess. UO is not a FPS to me. If it was more like it used to be where it was an interesting and exciting aspect to the game where everyone had the same initial chance and acted with some sort of manner then I would venture to Fellucia from time to time. The way it is though, no thanks

Maybe other shards are better, maybe not. Maybe I am just to old to "get it" anymore

 

[Evlar]

How can you follow this...

It's one of the reasons I would never have played pre-Tram UO

With this...

that makes me think that most people talking about "the good old days before Trammel" need to be in a padded cell somewhere, without internet access.

Clearly you didn't play before Trammel by your own admission. That's fine, no problem with that. But does it indeed qualify you as an authority of opinion about something you didn't actually participate in? Only going off and by your own suggestion, supporting the thoughts of "others".

It's that kind of community-destruction mentality

...Blacks are all thieves.
...Colombians are all drugs dealers.
...Islamic people are all terrorists.

If you tar everyone with the same brush, you are no better than people that would say the above. That in itself, is destructive within any community.

You don't understand something. You have not actively participated in something. Yet you're quite opinionated enough to cast aspersions, simply because you don't like it.

Nothing wrong with simply not liking something, not in the slightest. We all have different preferences in life. When you jump into an argument, without having experienced the subject of the argument first hand, within the game we're actually discussing, promote yourself as an authoritative viewpoint on the matter, whilst neatly packaging those into a box who don't share that view.

Ludicrous. You clearly don't have, or any intention of, "understanding your fellow players".

 

[Derium of ls]

It's one of the reasons I would never have played pre-Tram UO, and most of the people I know personally that played it pre-Tram QUIT because of it, and to this day won't look at the game again because of the way other players treated them. They could care less about graphics (we're talking people who routinely replay X-Com/UFO, Jagged Alliance 2, Fallout, and MOO2, and prefer games with overhead views like UO), and the change in game systems isn't an issue - it's ENTIRELY based on how the PKs made them feel unwelcome in the game. It's that kind of community-destruction mentality that makes me think that most people talking about "the good old days before Trammel" need to be in a padded cell somewhere, without internet access.

I met many people in my time before tram, and spent many many many hours playing the game. I have NO idea where people think it was a huge problem. Yeah every now and then PKs would find you and kill you. But most of them would leave everything on your corpse and leave once you were dead. A lot of the time they would res me and move on.

to me I'm happy I played pre-tram, people cared about each other, there was a greater community. you could travel in fel and not worry as much (now when you see a red name they try to kill you, back then they acted as just another player). And reds had A LOT more honor back then compared to today. Back then it was about the Kill, today it's all about the gank.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

it's ENTIRELY based on how the PKs made them feel unwelcome in the game. It's that kind of community-destruction mentality that makes me think that most people talking about "the good old days before Trammel" need to be in a padded cell somewhere, without internet access.

The first person to go 'negative' in the thread is a mod.

Saying things like this is no better than a PvPer calling you a "carebear" or a "trammy".

As a mod, you should delete your own post. rolleyes:

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

By the way, let's try not to hijack the thread with Classic Shard or Old UO vs. New UO stuff please. There are plenty of other threads with that kind of stuff going right now.

My intention in this thread is to give people the chance to explain why they do what they do, and why they don't do what they don't do.

No bashing necessary, and no reason to debate now vs. then. Certainly it is going to come up in the conversation, but I would rather not see the "PKs were not a problem back then"/"Yes they were you must be crazy or lying" stuff here.

Thank you.

 

[northwoodschopper]

I met many people in my time before tram, and spent many many many hours playing the game. I have NO idea where people think it was a huge problem. Yeah every now and then PKs would find you and kill you. But most of them would leave everything on your corpse and leave once you were dead. A lot of the time they would res me and move on.

to me I'm happy I played pre-tram, people cared about each other, there was a greater community. you could travel in fel and not worry as much (now when you see a red name they try to kill you, back then they acted as just another player). And reds had A LOT more honor back then compared to today. Back then it was about the Kill, today it's all about the gank.

don't know what kind of pkers you were lucky to be killed by, but i was constantly looted when i was killed, sometimes dry-looted for the hell of it, and then carved up. gold was scarce then, and selling even npc equipment was still decent money.

hell, anyone playing back in the 90's will remember that pking was only rampant after school was out in the US. playing during the morning and afternoon was actually pretty civil among the blues and reds, but once school was out, that's when the wanton pks logged on.

 

[northwoodschopper]

By the way, let's try not to hijack the thread with Classic Shard or Old UO vs. New UO stuff please. There are plenty of other threads with that kind of stuff going right now.

My intention in this thread is to give people the chance to explain why they do what they do, and why they don't do what they don't do.

No bashing necessary, and no reason to debate now vs. then. Certainly it is going to come up in the conversation, but I would rather not see the "PKs were not a problem back then"/"Yes they were you must be crazy or lying" stuff here.

Thank you.

i thought you pretty much made up your mind that trammies are spineless and don't want to be inconvenienced by pvp.

honestly, i think your time is better spent petitioning to get more character slots on siege than trying to convince trammies to try more pvp.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

i thought you pretty much made up your mind that trammies are spineless and don't want to be inconvenienced by pvp.

honestly, i think your time is better spent petitioning to get more character slots on siege than trying to convince trammies to try more pvp.

And I think your time would be better spent not putting words in my mouth or trolling my threads.

 

[Merriweather]

None of the Above.

I sometimes like PvP, but most often not. I have to be in the mood; then it can be a complete hoot, especially if the opponents are pretty closely matched. What I most dislike is being screwed with. I want it to be my choice, so I can choose a consensual fight with guildies or friends, or I can go to Fel if I want and take my chances, or I can PvM or mine or whatever without being messed with. It's the best of all possible worlds.

I am annoyed by manipulations meant to coax or force people to go to Fel, things like increased or special rewards, or the recent quest where you had to go to Fel to complete the task. Trying to find ways to get Trammies to troop into Fel to become targets for gank squads and whatnot is pandering to the lowest level of the community. Tram and Fel split because people like me didn't want our enjoyment marred by someone imposing on us. I don't go to Fel much because most of the people I have run into there are not honorable. It's not about PvP, which can be done anywhere, and can be a personal challenge between people who respect each other, but about PK by whatever means necessary, for no good reason. Screw that.

Those who like the Fel ruleset should play in Fel to their hearts content, killing each other with delight, interfering with each other's affairs, offing each other's mules, and so on, since that's the world they pay to live in. I pay to live in a world where I have more choices.

 

[northwoodschopper]

And I think your time would be better spent not putting words in my mouth or trolling my threads.

who's putting words in your mouth? you can search your many posts and come to that conclusion. you even yourself said that you think no-pvp is easy mode, and trammies are afraid to die to players yet not to monsters. you also said that you'd play siege if there was more player slots. if you changed your mind since then, then i rescind my words.

one does have to wonder that pvp was a big part of UO was it first came out, and it wasn't like the devs tried to hide player killing or anything from people signing up. it would seem if you agreed to the TOS when you signed up, you should be fine with pvp to begin with. pre-UOR anyways.

of course, i came from meridian 59, where you lose everything on death, and a bunch of your skill points everytime.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I sometimes like PvP, but most often not. I have to be in the mood; then it can be a complete hoot, especially if the opponents are pretty closely matched. What I most dislike is being screwed with.

So in your case, it's closer to the option about unknowns? It surprised me that more people didn't choose that option, because a lot of what I have seen posted sort of boils down to that point.

What your are saying here, as far as I can tell, is that you want to make the choice concerning what you are going to do in the game at any given time...and that when others take that choice away from you (an unknown variable), it bothers you.

Nothing wrong with that at all, I can completely understand that.

I am annoyed by manipulations meant to coax or force people to go to Fel, things like increased or special rewards, or the recent quest where you had to go to Fel to complete the task. Trying to find ways to get Trammies to troop into Fel to become targets for gank squads and whatnot is pandering to the lowest level of the community.

Not sure I understand this part. Above, you said you wanted a choice...but the event offered a choice...go to Fel, or don't do that part of the event. Same as any other choice offered in the game. If I want to get Doom artifacts, my choice is to go to Doom, or not get the Artifact (yes, I know I have the option of buying the artifacts...but ignore that for just a moment).

So I am wondering, what is about the devs making the choice to go to Fel more attractive that bothers you??

I am not calling you out, or attacking you, just curious.

Since the event, and things I have seen posted here, it has made me really curious about why people feel the way they feel about this subject, so please understand, I am not trying to change your mind, I am just trying to understand your position.

 

[Percivalgoh]

Pvp offers players a chance to be bad to other players in real life, to do things that adversely affect their game play and cause them grief in real life. It does not allow anyone the opportunity to effectively stop those players. Unless they figure it out game mechanics that control that type of player I have no interest in pvp.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

who's putting words in your mouth? you can search your many posts and come to that conclusion. you even yourself said that you think no-pvp is easy mode, and trammies are afraid to die to players yet not to monsters. you also said that you'd play siege if there was more player slots. if you changed your mind since then, then i rescind my words.

What you are spewing here is a gross misrepresentation of everything I have ever written. I don't know if you are too slow to understand the things I post, or if you are being deliberately obtuse...my suspicion is the latter.

What I have said is that the 1 character slot on Siege has kept me from playing it in the past. My current issues with Siege are the same as the issues I have with current prodo shards (broken economy, neon crap, AoS, artifacts, imbalance, etc.) I have no more interest in playing on Siege than I do any other live shard at this point because they all suffer from the same problems.

Secondly, if I had already made a concrete conclusion about why "trammies" (your words) do what they do, I would not have started this thread.

one does have to wonder that pvp was a big part of UO was it first came out, and it wasn't like the devs tried to hide player killing or anything from people signing up. it would seem if you agreed to the TOS when you signed up, you should be fine with pvp to begin with. pre-UOR anyways.

of course, i came from meridian 59, where you lose everything on death, and a bunch of your skill points everytime.

I agree with this part of your post. It is my belief that non-con PvP was (and should have always been) a part of UO. But what I am trying to understand is why others do not share that belief.

So are we more clear now?

 

[Derium of ls]

don't know what kind of pkers you were lucky to be killed by, but i was constantly looted when i was killed, sometimes dry-looted for the hell of it, and then carved up. gold was scarce then, and selling even npc equipment was still decent money.

hell, anyone playing back in the 90's will remember that pking was only rampant after school was out in the US. playing during the morning and afternoon was actually pretty civil among the blues and reds, but once school was out, that's when the wanton pks logged on.

actually, mine could have been different because I did normally play during off hours.

 

[CatLord]

UO PVP is much like General Chat...

no rules, no monitoring... and alot of people breaking TOS.

 

[Lynk]

Pvp offers players a chance to be bad to other players in real life, to do things that adversely affect their game play and cause them grief in real life. It does not allow anyone the opportunity to effectively stop those players. Unless they figure it out game mechanics that control that type of player I have no interest in pvp.

I can grief you much harder in trammel than I can in fel. In fel you can do something about it, in tram you have to deal with it.

 

[Percivalgoh]

I can grief you much harder in trammel than I can in fel. In fel you can do something about it, in tram you have to deal with it.

Whatever you think you can do to me in Trammel you can do the same and more in Felucca.

 

[Viper09]

I can grief you much harder in trammel than I can in fel. In fel you can do something about it, in tram you have to deal with it.

Whatever you think you can do to me in Trammel you can do the same and more in Felucca.

Ugh, the point is that in tram you can't do anything about it...in fel you can attack them. Such as you go hunting and someone comes in on your spot and killing the creatures you're killing. If you're in trammel, nothing you can do. In fel, you can attack this person.

 

[Evlar]

You know, I see some of the responses on the forums here...

...and I can't help but get the mental impression that when some disagree with others views, they're doing this on the other side of their monitor...

[YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/N4Vf9QMROCQ&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/N4Vf9QMROCQ&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Percivalgoh]

Ugh, the point is that in tram you can't do anything about it...in fel you can attack them.

Well ....NO ONE GRIEFS ME IN TRAMMEL so whatever. Were I in Felucca players can grief me and kill me. You are assuming that you are better at pvp than the other player.....big assumption and if you are then you are the king of the hill and you can grief whoever you want to. I don't want to grief other players.

 

[Flutter]

How about "I would enjoy pvp more if there weren't so many damn cheats"
Because that's my answer.

 

[CatLord]

Greetings... On Catskills, I developed a project to help newcomers... now, 12 years later, I can see the pattern.

New players join uo... they learn the basics and they go explore.
Some are fast learners, some take their time...

Sooner or later they end the non-fel game content... usually it takes them 6-10 months to explore all dungeons, do most quests, finish the peerless and tram champs and of course finish their characters...

Once they finish the non-fel game content, sometimes sooner, they set sail to felucca... to see pvp and try their luck at spawns... (we give them the starting 110s, so they go after 115+)

Then two things happen...
- some join the fel guilds, ignoring raids, moral or ethos.
- some fight back.

Those joining the fel guilds have an easier task... they have someone to guide them into the next leg of their journey...

Those fighting... it sure is a blast.



In the end the outcome is always the same... they leave UO.


I have my own reasoning to why they leave... why would they keep fighting if they see so much cheating and nothing is done by the devs...

On my side... I'll keep doing my thing... tutoring and helping.

Maybe someday we'll see something change... until then... 2004-2010... still the same sad stuff.

(sorry for the long post)

 

[Viper09]

Well ....NO ONE GRIEFS ME IN TRAMMEL so whatever. Were I in Felucca players can grief me and kill me. You are assuming that you are better at pvp than the other player.....big assumption and if you are then you are the king of the hill and you can grief whoever you want to. I don't want to grief other players.

Well aren't you the lucky one to never get griefed in trammel A lucky case you are.

But I don't know what you're getting at about assuming that I am assuming I am better at PvP. Sounds like you're getting a tad riled up here for no reason. I was simply explaining that if you get griefed in fel you have the option for actually fighting off the griefer.

 

[Tazar]

Ugh, the point is that in tram you can't do anything about it...in fel you can attack them. Such as you go hunting and someone comes in on your spot and killing the creatures you're killing. If you're in trammel, nothing you can do. In fel, you can attack this person.

Wrong! There are several things you can do:

Make friends!
Call in friends to overpower them!
Migrate to another hunting spot!
and much more.

I agree with the post above - Anything you can do to grief in Tram can be done in fel - and more.

 

[Beer_Cayse]

Mods are not allowed to have opinions? Even strong ones? Oof!

 

[Tazar]

Sorry... I was opinionated long before I became a Mod. Many of us were/are.

 

[Percivalgoh]

Well aren't you the lucky one to never get griefed in trammel A lucky case you are.

But I don't know what you're getting at about assuming that I am assuming I am better at PvP. Sounds like you're getting a tad riled up here for no reason. I was simply explaining that if you get griefed in fel you have the option for actually fighting off the griefer.

Fighting with someone whose only desire is to fight does little to discourage them. You have an option of fighitng off the griefer but if you can't win then you not only wasted your time but made the griefer happy which is something I'ld rather not do. In my opinion pvp in UO as it exists attracts the worst type of players which I would rather not play with. I understand my options better than you.

 

[Merriweather]

So in your case, it's closer to the option about unknowns? It surprised me that more people didn't choose that option, because a lot of what I have seen posted sort of boils down to that point.

What your are saying here, as far as I can tell, is that you want to make the choice concerning what you are going to do in the game at any given time...and that when others take that choice away from you (an unknown variable), it bothers you.

It's "None of the above" and I am saying exactly what I am saying, no more, no less, no interpretation necessary. "Unknowns" have nothing to do with it. I got killed yesterday by a lava elemental. I didn't set out to hunt knowing that would happen, but it did. It's part of the game, not knowing how things will evolve. What I object to is being imposed upon, having another person deliberately interfer with me. Choice is the issue, or for the amateur shirinks among us, "it's a control issue." It's one experience to engage in a good hard fight with a quality opponent, where either could triumph. It's another to be overwhelmed by ridiculous numbers of gankers, or by one or two super-powered cheaters. There is no fun there. There is no honor there. There is only frustration there. What bewilders me is, why would anyone think that people who have paid to play this game would willingly sign on for a frustrating experience, endure name calling because they won't sign on for it, and be expected to explain their choices over and over.

I am annoyed by manipulations meant to coax or force people to go to Fel, things like increased or special rewards, or the recent quest where you had to go to Fel to complete the task. Trying to find ways to get Trammies to troop into Fel to become targets for gank squads and whatnot is pandering to the lowest level of the community.

Not sure I understand this part. Above, you said you wanted a choice...but the event offered a choice...go to Fel, or don't do that part of the event. Same as any other choice offered in the game. If I want to get Doom artifacts, my choice is to go to Doom, or not get the Artifact (yes, I know I have the option of buying the artifacts...but ignore that for just a moment).

So I am wondering, what is about the devs making the choice to go to Fel more attractive that bothers you??

I am not calling you out, or attacking you, just curious.

Since the event, and things I have seen posted here, it has made me really curious about why people feel the way they feel about this subject, so please understand, I am not trying to change your mind, I am just trying to understand your position.

Of course I have the choice to go to Fel or not. But I have no choice to complete the quest without going to Fel and making myself vulnerable to the very frustrations that led me to take up life as a proud and dedicated Trammie. For me it works out like this. I, and many others, abandoned Fel because non-consensual PvP ceased to be fun. FOR US. Other players chose to stay in Fel because non-consensual PvP was fun FOR THEM. Everybody got what they wanted, right? So why is it important or necessary or desirable to coax me or others like me to visit Fel? Can't the Fellucans be happy fighting amongst themselves and killing each other? Why should the developers put any effort into "making the choice to go to Felluca more attractive" unless it's to appease the very individuals I abandoned Fel to get away from, the dishonorable pains in the neck that find imposing their will on other people a giggle? I have no desire or need to appease them.

I think there is a big sparkling difference between being willing to engage in real PvP and taking whatever risks you feel up for, and making yourself a victim in a situation where you don't stand a chance. Fel is nothing but a shooting gallery, a situation created by the fun-loving Fellucans themselves. Cry all you (the Fellucans) want, and complain all you want, and coax all you want. Your land is empty because of you and your choices, not because of me and mine.