Understanding Your Fellow Players

[Merriweather]

So in your case, it's closer to the option about unknowns? It surprised me that more people didn't choose that option, because a lot of what I have seen posted sort of boils down to that point.

What your are saying here, as far as I can tell, is that you want to make the choice concerning what you are going to do in the game at any given time...and that when others take that choice away from you (an unknown variable), it bothers you.

It's "None of the above" and I am saying exactly what I am saying, no more, no less, no interpretation necessary. "Unknowns" have nothing to do with it. I got killed yesterday by a lava elemental. I didn't set out to hunt knowing that would happen, but it did. It's part of the game, not knowing how things will evolve. What I object to is being imposed upon, having another person deliberately interfer with me. Choice is the issue, or for the amateur shirinks among us, "it's a control issue." It's one experience to engage in a good hard fight with a quality opponent, where either could triumph. It's another to be overwhelmed by ridiculous numbers of gankers, or by one or two super-powered cheaters. There is no fun there. There is no honor there. There is only frustration there. What bewilders me is, why would anyone think that people who have paid to play this game would willingly sign on for a frustrating experience, endure name calling because they won't sign on for it, and be expected to explain their choices over and over.

I am annoyed by manipulations meant to coax or force people to go to Fel, things like increased or special rewards, or the recent quest where you had to go to Fel to complete the task. Trying to find ways to get Trammies to troop into Fel to become targets for gank squads and whatnot is pandering to the lowest level of the community.

Not sure I understand this part. Above, you said you wanted a choice...but the event offered a choice...go to Fel, or don't do that part of the event. Same as any other choice offered in the game. If I want to get Doom artifacts, my choice is to go to Doom, or not get the Artifact (yes, I know I have the option of buying the artifacts...but ignore that for just a moment).

So I am wondering, what is about the devs making the choice to go to Fel more attractive that bothers you??

I am not calling you out, or attacking you, just curious.

Since the event, and things I have seen posted here, it has made me really curious about why people feel the way they feel about this subject, so please understand, I am not trying to change your mind, I am just trying to understand your position.

Of course I have the choice to go to Fel or not. But I have no choice to complete the quest without going to Fel and making myself vulnerable to the very frustrations that led me to take up life as a proud and dedicated Trammie. For me it works out like this. I, and many others, abandoned Fel because non-consensual PvP ceased to be fun. FOR US. Other players chose to stay in Fel because non-consensual PvP was fun FOR THEM. Everybody got what they wanted, right? So why is it important or necessary or desirable to coax me or others like me to visit Fel? Can't the Fellucans be happy fighting amongst themselves and killing each other? Why should the developers put any effort into "making the choice to go to Felluca more attractive" unless it's to appease the very individuals I abandoned Fel to get away from, the dishonorable pains in the neck that find imposing their will on other people a giggle? I have no desire or need to appease them.

I think there is a big sparkling difference between being willing to engage in real PvP and taking whatever risks you feel up for, and making yourself a victim in a situation where you don't stand a chance. Fel is nothing but a shooting gallery, a situation created by the fun-loving Fellucans themselves. Cry all you (the Fellucans) want, and complain all you want, and coax all you want. Your land is empty because of you and your choices, not because of me and mine.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Of course I have the choice to go to Fel or not. But I have no choice to complete the quest without going to Fel and making myself vulnerable to the very frustrations that led me to take up life as a proud and dedicated Trammie.

Was there ever anything written that content would be exclusive to Trammel?

I mean, if the devs start an event, why should it be limited to only specific areas of the game? Without derailing this into a debate about the event itself, lets attempt to keep it on a broader level.

If the devs add something to Fel, to offer players a chance to gain somethng of value, but at higher risk (more difficulty), why is that bad? If you don't want to go there to get whatever it is, no one is forcing you to do so. Meanwhile, there are plenty of players that are stuck in Fel that cannot partake in things, like Doom, and Peerless ML bosses, etc. Sure, I agree, these people knew that they were limiting their choices by going red, but in any Trammel ruleset area, they would be unable to attack any blue players...so why continue to exclude them from Trammel content?

For me it works out like this. I, and many others, abandoned Fel because non-consensual PvP ceased to be fun. FOR US. Other players chose to stay in Fel because non-consensual PvP was fun FOR THEM. Everybody got what they wanted, right?

No. Not everyone. There were many of us that wanted the world to remain as one, and other methods of curtailing PKs to be tried. An awful lot of those people just quit after Trammel came in. Sure, you might say, well...who needs them anyway? But some of the people I am talking about were Day 1 Vets, like me, that had invested 3 years of their lives and their own money to build a community in a game, for good or for bad.

So why is it important or necessary or desirable to coax me or others like me to visit Fel? Can't the Fellucans be happy fighting amongst themselves and killing each other? Why should the developers put any effort into "making the choice to go to Felluca more attractive" unless it's to appease the very individuals I abandoned Fel to get away from, the dishonorable pains in the neck that find imposing their will on other people a giggle? I have no desire or need to appease them.

So don't appease them. If the devs create something in Fel, don't do it. It's really that simple.

And by the way, I knew a LOT of very honorable players that engaged in PvP before the split. I think it is very important that people understand the difference between PvP'ers and PKs. A PK is someone that victimized someone that didn't want to be victimized. A PvPer is someone that attacked/fought people that were PvPers themselves. There is (was) a great deal of honor, in my opinion, amongst some of the people that put themselves and their in-game property on the line to defend those that didn't want to PvP back in the old days.

I think there is a big sparkling difference between being willing to engage in real PvP and taking whatever risks you feel up for, and making yourself a victim in a situation where you don't stand a chance. Fel is nothing but a shooting gallery, a situation created by the fun-loving Fellucans themselves. Cry all you (the Fellucans) want, and complain all you want, and coax all you want. Your land is empty because of you and your choices, not because of me and mine.

I sense that you harbor some resentment from the old days. I can understand that. I knew a lot of players that literally HATED PKs...hated them!

But I think that the players in Fel today are less "dishonorable pains in the neck" than they were back then, because now...anyone entering Fel is consenting to PvP.

That's no excuse for the true jerks in the game, the ones that say things to people that no one should say to one another...just an explanation.

 

[HD2300]

^^ PvP is Player versus Player.
So PKers are PvPers.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Not entirely correct, PvP requires both to be versus eachother, its not PvP if only one is fighting and the other one is just dying.

 

[Nexus]

I voted, I voted I don't PvP and none of the above reasons applied to me.

Don't get me wrong I have PvPed, both Before and After AoS, and to be honest in neither cases did I really care for it. That's not to say I don't venture into Fel, I still play on a Thief on Chessy and I do steal from players but that's not the same as what I think you ment by PvP for the purpose of the poll.


I've seen the evolution of the PvPer first hand, and to be honest if you came to the game in the past I'd say 6 years or so most of you can't hold a candle to the PvPers of old...I'm not talking skill, or raw ability but as to what type of person. Todays PvP crowd spends too much time acting like a group of verbally challenged teenagers and quite frankly I'm getting too old for that crap.....

Used to be you got killed the guy looted you and if he wasn't nice enough to rez you, you both moved on. Today's typical Red encounter goes somethign like this: You get killed, the killer hovers over your corpse for 5 minutes discussing lewd acts between him/herself, your mother and a mule....then rez kills you just to do it again...
It's asinine, childish, and simply something I'd rather not deal with. If you manage to kill him you get...
The Red goes Rezes follows you around for a bit discussing lewd acts between him/herself, your mother, and a mule tells you why you suck at PvP although he's the one that just got Rezed and attempts to provoke another fight simply to try and repair his tarnished sense of honor... That or half a dozen of his crew roll up and proceed to repeatedly rez kill you.

Either way Like I said I'm simply getting too old for that crap. I'm not 15, I'm not in High School, I've traveled half way around the globe and back, been drunk in more countries than most of my peers from childhood will ever dream of seeing and I'm ready to sit back relax and enjoy the rest of my life, and my definition of that does not include some Ego driven Clown Shoe with the the IQ of a happy sock disrupting my preferred game play just so he can get his jollies and increase the size of his E-peen...

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

^^ PvP is Player versus Player.
So PKers are PvPers.

PKers = PvPers? Yes.

PK's victims = PvPers? No.

But not all PvPers are PKs.

Get it?

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Either way Like I said I'm simply getting too old for that crap. I'm not 15, I'm not in High School, I've traveled half way around the globe and back, been drunk in more countries than most of my peers from childhood will ever dream of seeing and I'm ready to sit back relax and enjoy the rest of my life, and my definition of that does not include some Ego driven Clown Shoe with the the IQ of a happy sock disrupting my preferred game play just so he can get his jollies and increase the size of his E-peen...

I wouldn't dare repeat, in a public forum, some of the things that were said to me pre-Trammel.

Don't make any mistakes...you will hear old school PvPers talk about the old days, and how things weren't bad back then, but the type of player you are describing played UO back then as well. In fact, I think in some cases they were worse.

So in your case, it's more about not wanting to deal with the trash talking and actual griefing?

I can certainly understand that.

 

[Nexus]

I wouldn't dare repeat, in a public forum, some of the things that were said to me pre-Trammel.

Don't make any mistakes...you will hear old school PvPers talk about the old days, and how things weren't bad back then, but the type of player you are describing played UO back then as well. In fact, I think in some cases they were worse.

So in your case, it's more about not wanting to deal with the trash talking and actual griefing?

I can certainly understand that.

I was fortunate most of the PKs I ran into back in the day weren't bad, sure some trash talked, but a lot of them would be nice enough to rez you and send you on your way. And today not all are like what I described but I see it way to often compared to before, of course the Tram/Fel split concentrated the PvP community a bit so that makes it more prevalent.

 

[Kaleb]

For lack of a better choice, I picked the one that says I don't PvP because I don't feel I can compete at it.

As I've explained to you before, Morgana, I'm playing on a laptop computer that is several years old. I use a mouse. But for the first four years I played UO, I didn't even use a mouse. I used the laptop's touch pad. I finally got a mouse and made myself learn how to use it to play UO.

I'm also OLD and I know my reaction time isn't the same as someone who's 20-30 years younger than me. I've also got just about every possible keyboard combination I can set up on this laptop already assigned to some macro and just don't see how I can squeeze in anymore for things like PvP spell combos or things like dismounting, getting off a shot and remounting without investing in some additional hardware. Since I already spend enough money on this game and don't really have the desk space for an additional keyboard and no desire to plunk more money into buying a monitor and stashing the laptop under it to clear up desk space, I'm pretty much stuck with the setup I have. I function just fine in UO doing what I enjoy doing, but know that what I have just wouldn't cut it for really getting into PvP.

So, because I have sub-par equipment and old-lady slow reflexes, yeah I don't really have much of an interest in participating in a lot of PvP. I know I'd be staring at a gray screen most of the time asking myself what the heck just happened and trying to figure out if there's any way I could have reacted faster the next time around. At my age and based on the little amount of time I have to play anymore, it just doesn't seem worth it. Today I started wearing my first pair of trifocals. Who knows...in two months maybe the doctor will tell me I also need a hearing aid. Clearly, I'm in no condition to be PvPing.....it might make me need a pacemaker and that's really something I can't afford right now.



I hope this makes sense to you, Morgana. Yes, I know there are probably plenty of 50-somethings who do PvP. But they probably got started with it a long time ago and maybe even have kids to sit next to them and give them pointers along the way. I don't. My daughter has no interest in UO and my oldest grandson's only 5, far too young to be playing UO.

If I was younger and could pour more money into my computer equipment, I'd love to learn to PvP. The closest I get to it now is sneaking around once in a while on a faction thief or going out on an archer in the company of several guildmates who are very good at PvPing. I get in a few shots and maybe once in a blue blue moon might even get the kill shot. But it's rare and unexpected. I don't have a problem with someone else clobbering my characters. Heck, when I play my faction thieves, I always figure it's almost guaranteed it will happen. And the smack talk is what it is. The cheating also puts a damper on the little bit of interest I have in learning to PvP, but the major disincentive for me is just plain not having good equipment for it and knowing that even if I did, I'd probably still be terrible at it because I don't react as fast as someone younger and more experienced than I am.

Another thing that keeps me from becoming very interested in PvP is the cost to acquire decent gear and/or power and stat scrolls. I've been around enough PvPers the last couple of years to understand that there's always some new tactic or gimmick that people are using that make it worthwhile, if you can afford it, to acquire new weapons or change around your skills or modify your suit. I just don't have the gold to do it and I'm not about to use real life money to buy it from brokers. I'm content at this point to stick mostly to PvM and continue to use the crappy old suits my characters already have and maybe someday improve them ever so slightly if I ever get some artificers trained up. I don't care about collecting stuff to sell or running merchants. Whatever gold I make these days comes strictly from going out and hunting, and I seem to do less and less of that every week.

So, if you made it through reading all this, good for you. If not, I guess I'll just expect yet another summary from you that says people like me don't PvP because we're cowards. If that's what happens, I swear this will be the last time I attempt to explain to you my lack of interest in UO PvP.

Great post.
The bolded part is pretty much Guild PvP in todays UO, PvP in UO is all about Guilds and working as a team, for the most part the better the teamwork the better the overall results.

I pvp and I dont. On EA I have to spend too much time getting around the Item Curve to where I dont get a lot of time to PvP. where The other place is old school and non item dependent and 99.325 pvp comes to me. On EA every time I take a break when I come back I have to get the newest unbalanced items for my suits and change templates to be effective and competitive till the next event or whetever, Its a circle that gets real old makes you feel like that stupid lab rat going after the electric cheese all the time. But in the end UO PVP is the best in all MMOs, when you have the items you need to compete. UO PvP is even better when its truly Player Vs Player and Items are not a must have in the equation.

 

[Jesara]

But, to be honest, the main reason I dont like pvp is the person behind the keyboard. I can not consciously cause grief to another human. Not "griefing", but I think you get my meaning.

That is exactly my reason too. Even though we look like avatars on the screen, we are people behind them, and I can't purposefully hurt another living thing.

 

[Percivalgoh]

Not all players who are in Felucca want to pvp, some are crafters, some want to do spawns, some want to do the quests. They are not wanting to pvp necessarily but are willing to risk being killed. For the most part these players will be killed in a conflict since they don't want to pvp or aren't skilled or are just a crafter without fighting skills. The players who come to kill them have little risk and the player getting killed has no reward for it. Players who kill these players who are in Felucca for other reasons don't really care if these players enjoy playing or not as long as they themselves have fun. Somehow that the rules allow them to kill the other player or steal form them this relieves them of consideration for their fellow players. They don't bother to talk with the players and find out what they are up to as many of the old time PKs used to. This is a game and people want to have fun. Different people have different ideas of what is fun. Here is an idea for the devs, make it so that there is a reward to getting pked rather than a risk then people will happily allow themselves to get slaughtered.

 

[Tina Small]

The bolded part is pretty much Guild PvP in todays UO, PvP in UO is all about Guilds and working as a team, for the most part the better the teamwork the better the overall results.

Yep, for me the most enjoyable part of the little bit of PvPing I do is being part of a team. Not only do you have the challenge of being up against other players, but you also need to keep an eye on guildmates and try to help keep each other alive while also not being a hindrance (or in my case getting too excited and shrieking in TeamSpeak), or worse yet, just flat out killing a guildmate because of your own stupidity. I have earned a few murder counts from a certain guildmate because of accidentally slaughtering his characters at champ spawns. Oops.

 

[HD2300]

BEFORE

A PvPer is someone that attacked/fought people that were PvPers themselves.

NOW

^^ PvP is Player versus Player.
So PKers are PvPers.

PKers = PvPers? Yes.

PK's victims = PvPers? No.

But not all PvPers are PKs.

Get it?

I am glad you get it now.

 

[Experimental]

I played for about 5 years before I would even set foot in fel because I couldn't fight and i was afraid of dieing. Funny thing about it was that I usually lived in Fel.
Now, my tamer only gets dusted off to either rez someones pet or use my greater at a harrower.
I'm not good at pvp, but I try and I love it. I don't even mind dieing and the rush I get from either trying to stay alive and escape or fight someone who's chasing me and the rush of getting the kill is a lot more fun than PvM'ing.

BTW, I'm two weeks oldern' dirt with slower reflexes for sure and I don't use an N52 even tho I have one and won't use my G15 for macros either so the wins over some 15-20 year old who is probly screaming every foul epithet he can think of that he can't say in game is all the more sweet.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

BEFORE

A PvPer is someone that attacked/fought people that were PvPers themselves.

NOW

^^ PvP is Player versus Player.
So PKers are PvPers.

PKers = PvPers? Yes.

PK's victims = PvPers? No.

But not all PvPers are PKs.

Get it?

I am glad you get it now.

I am pretty sure I got it before. Not all PvPers were/are PKs. PKs were people that attacked innocent players, as in, victims. Players can, and have been able to, PvP without killing anyone that doesn't consent to it.

 

[Violence]

Some of the replies I've read reek of negativity to say the least. A certain number of dedicated Trammel players have demonstrated such narrow points of view, always in my own humble opinion, that words regarding Ultima Online's "reality" will always be lost on them.

Shame, really.

 

[Merriweather]

Of course I have the choice to go to Fel or not. But I have no choice to complete the quest without going to Fel and making myself vulnerable to the very frustrations that led me to take up life as a proud and dedicated Trammie.

Was there ever anything written that content would be exclusive to Trammel?

I mean, if the devs start an event, why should it be limited to only specific areas of the game? Without derailing this into a debate about the event itself, lets attempt to keep it on a broader level.

If the devs add something to Fel, to offer players a chance to gain somethng of value, but at higher risk (more difficulty), why is that bad? If you don't want to go there to get whatever it is, no one is forcing you to do so. Meanwhile, there are plenty of players that are stuck in Fel that cannot partake in things, like Doom, and Peerless ML bosses, etc. Sure, I agree, these people knew that they were limiting their choices by going red, but in any Trammel ruleset area, they would be unable to attack any blue players...so why continue to exclude them from Trammel content?

For me it works out like this. I, and many others, abandoned Fel because non-consensual PvP ceased to be fun. FOR US. Other players chose to stay in Fel because non-consensual PvP was fun FOR THEM. Everybody got what they wanted, right?

No. Not everyone. There were many of us that wanted the world to remain as one, and other methods of curtailing PKs to be tried. An awful lot of those people just quit after Trammel came in. Sure, you might say, well...who needs them anyway? But some of the people I am talking about were Day 1 Vets, like me, that had invested 3 years of their lives and their own money to build a community in a game, for good or for bad.

So why is it important or necessary or desirable to coax me or others like me to visit Fel? Can't the Fellucans be happy fighting amongst themselves and killing each other? Why should the developers put any effort into "making the choice to go to Felluca more attractive" unless it's to appease the very individuals I abandoned Fel to get away from, the dishonorable pains in the neck that find imposing their will on other people a giggle? I have no desire or need to appease them.

So don't appease them. If the devs create something in Fel, don't do it. It's really that simple.

And by the way, I knew a LOT of very honorable players that engaged in PvP before the split. I think it is very important that people understand the difference between PvP'ers and PKs. A PK is someone that victimized someone that didn't want to be victimized. A PvPer is someone that attacked/fought people that were PvPers themselves. There is (was) a great deal of honor, in my opinion, amongst some of the people that put themselves and their in-game property on the line to defend those that didn't want to PvP back in the old days.

I think there is a big sparkling difference between being willing to engage in real PvP and taking whatever risks you feel up for, and making yourself a victim in a situation where you don't stand a chance. Fel is nothing but a shooting gallery, a situation created by the fun-loving Fellucans themselves. Cry all you (the Fellucans) want, and complain all you want, and coax all you want. Your land is empty because of you and your choices, not because of me and mine.

I sense that you harbor some resentment from the old days. I can understand that. I knew a lot of players that literally HATED PKs...hated them!

But I think that the players in Fel today are less "dishonorable pains in the neck" than they were back then, because now...anyone entering Fel is consenting to PvP.

That's no excuse for the true jerks in the game, the ones that say things to people that no one should say to one another...just an explanation.

I don't think content should be exclusive to Trammel. I think Trammel and Fel should be exactly equal only the gank squads, cheaters, and those who insist that the only joy to be had is in PKing should play in their own l'il sandbox. The fact that people have to be manipulated to go to Fellucca tells you something. This game is like an amusement park. People do what's the most fun, by their own definition. If there's this one ride that 60% of the time when you ride it you lose a hand or a foot, it's going to get less business than a ride where .5% of the time you get seriously injured.

I hold no resentment from the old days, and you can't "sense" what you don't know. I don't care what happened ten years ago, I care what happens now. The Tram/Fel schism was a compromise to let those who think bullying and abusing people is fun and those who don't each have a place in a limited world. And that's swell. But here it is, umpty years later, and still with the whining and complaining about the lack of victims. Would-be PKers should shut up already! If they want to PvP they should do it with people who want to play that way, and who will give them a good run for their money. If they just want to impose on other people then they should impose on their like-minded fellows.

In effect, the Fellucans are in a ghetto, restricted and confined to a crummy neighborhood because of how they choose to behave. Manipulating to bring Trammies there is like telling law abiding folks that to see the last Harry Potter movie they have to go to the ghetto and take their chances with death. I say, give the Fellucans everything the Trammies have, and give the Trammies everything the Fellucans have. Let the only difference be that in Felluca you can PK, or, to pretend that it's something it's not, "engage in non-consensual PvP." And for Pete's sake, let the games begin and the whining stop!

 

[Lady Michelle]

Its very simple I don't pvp because I don't want to, and I don't have to. I play this game the way I want to play it not how others think I should play it. No offense but I seriously feel I don't have to give anyone a reason why I don't. Other than I don't. If I really want to learn to pvp I can get my brother Keldan who played on lake superior to teach me, but that would take away from what I really like to do the most in this game. Decorating

 

[chuckoatl]

I love PvP... Before the improvements to factions I did it, not that much though. Since the gear and such was introduced I love it. I love statting people. I love the rush of getting away, the fulfillment of fighting through a gank (which UO is about the only game you can do that in). I love everything about it. Still leaning but I am getting much better.

 

[JocelynofSonoma]

I do not...reasons don't apply.... Thoughts at random: 1. Killing others is repugnant to me. That's is the main reason I suppose. But..other thoughts would be... 2. The cheating I've heard about 3. Personally, I don't understand the rez killing part - cause when I'm pk'ed I don't allow a rez from my murderer. I would never ask for anything to be returned nor expect it to be returned. 4. The incredibly juvenile/not-juvenile-but-horrific "trash" talk I read in General chat. 'Nuff said as everyone knows what I'm talking about. 5. I've only played for 6 years and one commenter said that is reason enough cause I can't hold a candle to pvpers of old. I'm sure that's true but I really don't care since I find the whole business repugnant. (see reasons above and below) 6. As an aside; I've never had a problem being called a carebear or a trammie. I suppose because I don't see either word as being a negative. I am a carebear and I live and play in Trammel. 7. While I don't have physical limitations as some have said; I am older and most probobly lack the "twitch" needed for pvp. My equipment and connection are top-notch. 8. I do like to spar. I usually lose but it's fun with people you trust as friends. Consentual to me would be important - IS important. 9. I do not like feeling "forced" into Fel for events or quests. Yes, yes... I know I have a choice in the matter. My choices are to go to Fel to try to do the quest/event or not. If I choose not, I fail to complete the quest/event. When I do go I know I'll get killed and most probobly not be able to complete. The last time I tried to complete a quest was this latest Ricardo thing. I got to the book and was surrounded by reds and before i could open the book I was pk'ed. That just wasn't fun for me. 10. I just have never preferred being a sheep for wolves enjoyment. I have been told to leave the game cause I don't "play it right" because I don't pvp. I've never told anyone to leave because they have a different playstyle than I. I, in fact, always say that pvp is a part of UO and I have no problem with anyone playing any way they like. I would appreciate the same consideration I suppose. Sorry for the long blathering post.

 

[Lythos-]

I love fel in general not just pvp. It's where i started and where i chose to stay because of the attitude in tram. I only visit tram ruleset to stock a vendor and buy items.

Back when i started it was kill or be killed, where if you wanted to hunt you had to be able to fend off attacks. I learned to play smarter and work harder for what i have. Today this gimme gimme high end items with little to no risk attitude pretty much makes me sick. Medusa is a prime example of little to no risk if well prepared.

I've had a scrolled out miner in a pvp suit for over a year now since i only do my mining in fel. I can't tell you how many times i've killed pkers with my miner so i really don't understand how people can kill high end monsters but cringe at the thought of player engagement.

All in all, todays UO is just too soft imo.

 

[Evlar]

One thing I think I do understand. UO has always appealed to a wide audience. It has always offered a broad range of ways to play the game.

What I perhaps fail to understand, is that UO started life with very strong elements of PvP. Since then, it feels like that aspect of the game has lessened and lessened, as if it's some form of pariah dog, to be kicked and shoed away.

In essence, what I can't bend my head around, is that when you have a game, which features (or featured?) strong elements of PvP content, what exactly is the appeal for someone who doesn't like that, to play the game in the first place?

I know, there's a lot more to UO than PvP, that UO isn't just about PvP. But I can't understand why someone who isn't prepared to accept it, doesn't like it in any way, shape, or form, would want to play such a game featuring it.

Additionally, when it is (or has been?) such a strong part of the content of the game, why would players who don't like it, yet claim to be "nice" or the good guys, crusade so much for it to be so diminished within the game, to the detriment of the enjoyment of other players?

I think that what I understand most, is there's a lot of mutual resentment within UO. Both sides make valid points to a certain extent. This is entirely why the game has become the divided mess it currently is, with respect to those for or against PvP content.

Perhaps rather than trying to appease every element of the playing population, the developers should have stood firm. Perhaps they should have made solid decisions on what UO is meant to be about, then stuck with it and supported the further development in that chosen path.

To my mind, there are far too many "factions" of players, who claim their style is what the game is meant to be about, with little or no consideration that other players might have different preferences.

The whole situation, quite frankly, is a mess. It's also why I advocate splitting the game into three choices, to perhaps better suit those who want different ways to play the game as they desire.

- Current Prodo Shards
- Siege/Mugen Shards
- Classic Shards

I understand that these "choices" will impact players on every shard in some way or another. I understand that players on the production shards will be concerned by the revision of Siege/Mugen and any potential classic shards. Main reasons seem to be "developer time" and potential loss of production shard players to Siege/Mugen or classic shards.

So what I would ask is this. As a player of UO, would you rather see the developers do something that potentially could make a lot of players happy and encourage growth of the player base, or keep muddling on with things the way they are, with the likelihood that subscription number will continue to decline?

Now I don't know about you, but I don't want to see UO decline. I would like to see choices available that will benefit everyone in the long run. Some changes and choices don't come without sacrifices, but if they're in the greater good, then they get my backing.

 

[Der Rock]

you are so completly wrong in most what you post......you never see failures and inanity in your own post´s right?...
thats because you have no self-awarness and insight....

let see, you say :

If the devs add something to Fel, to offer players a chance to gain somethng of value, but at higher risk (more difficulty), why is that bad? If you don't want to go there to get whatever it is, no one is forcing you to do so. Meanwhile, there are plenty of players that are stuck in Fel that cannot partake in things, like Doom, and Peerless ML bosses, etc. Sure, I agree, these people knew that they were limiting their choices by going red, but in any Trammel ruleset area, they would be unable to attack any blue players...so why continue to exclude them from Trammel content?
.....................

1.why ! NEED (real)pvp player "something of value" in fel. to fight other pvp player ??????
WHAT you ask for is simply to lure PVM-player to fel.
THIS alone makes 99% of your posts washed-up !
in almost all your posts you only defend/beg/drool to forcing more PVM player to attend your "playstyle"

2.reds are limited to fel.???? NO every account has 5-7 character and i bet 99,99% of all red-accounts have also blue character.


3.you want reds go to doom/perless and abyss to PVM ?
SURE, dev´s should make this possible BUT at the same time Skill and Stat scrolls should also spawn in TRAM !



So what???
the whole argument about revival of uo-pvp is delusive as long as reds beg for PVM player !



p.s. the PVM player ensure the continuity of UO,so the "hardcore pvp player" should ask
for pvp-content and NOT begging for PVM player over and over and over..........

 

[cdavbar]

i wasted 60 seconds of my life on this thread?

 

[Der Rock]

So what I would ask is this. As a player of UO, would you rather see the developers do something that potentially could make a lot of players happy and encourage growth of the player base, or keep muddling on with things the way they are, with the likelihood that subscription number will continue to decline?

POTENTIALLY is the main word here !

POTENTIALLY on siege could be 10 000 pvp player, building two enemy Clans
all fight in GM Armor and GM weapons without using of insurence and only skill max GM
they would avoid all landmasses except the "good old britannia"

they could fight epic battles like uo in his OLD days............

as i said...POTENTIALLY

 

[Der Rock]

.........
I think that what I understand most, is there's a lot of mutual resentment within UO. Both sides make valid points to a certain extent. This is entirely why the game has become the divided mess it currently is, with respect to those for or against PvP content...........

the both sides are compound in

5-10% "PvP" player begging for "something of value" in fel to lure PVM player

and

90-95 % of PVM player that simply say NO! no more carrots in fel.!


UO-PvP = Pseudo PvP

 

[Evlar]

The devs created that little "problem" you're referring to, not me, not the PvP'ers, not the PvM'ers. Complain to them...

...lot's of others seem happy to do so.

POTENTIALLY is the main word here !

Potentially, there are plenty of options for UO, with more choices to suit those of all play styles. It just depends if EA/Mythic are prepared to explore them all fully.

 

[Percivalgoh]

Person a: You aren't taking enough risk. You should come to Felucca so I can kill you.

Person b: Sure come to Trammel. Oh wait you're red so you can't LOL

 

[Der Rock]

POTENTIALLY is the main word here !

Potentially, there are plenty of options for UO, with more choices to suit those of all play styles. It just depends if EA/Mythic are prepared to explore them all fully.

it was sarcasm, maybe you misunderstood.
you can compare it with the "repopulate West Britain Bank" whiners,
if all those "burn luna and reanimate WBB" whiners would be AT the WBB the WBB would NOT be abandoned

thats the crux of the matter

 

[CatLord]

I say, give the Fellucans everything the Trammies have, and give the Trammies everything the Fellucans have. Let the only difference be that in Felluca you can PK, or, to pretend that it's something it's not, "engage in non-consensual PvP." And for Pete's sake, let the games begin and the whining stop!

amen.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

THIS alone makes 99% of your posts washed-up !

Ummm...

...ok?

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

In essence, what I can't bend my head around, is that when you have a game, which features (or featured?) strong elements of PvP content, what exactly is the appeal for someone who doesn't like that, to play the game in the first place?

I can answer that one.

UO was the only game of its kind when it came out...and honestely, there was no way of knowing, at first, what the PvP outcome would be. I played the beta, so I had some idea of what to expect, but what I got on launch day almost made me quit. The lag was horrible...so much so that in many cases you would get a black screen with a few sentences that players had typed like 3 minutes ago popping up at the bottom. If you typed something, it would take like 3-4 minutes before it would appear. The servers went down often, there were huge reverts, etc. And then there was the PKs. When the game ran properly, and that was rare in the first month or so, you could find yourself on the receiving end of a lag gank, or lost connection kill. You throw that in with the fact that no one advertised the game as open PvP...not really...and you got a lot of PO'ed players. Some of us got fed up with being PKed and fought back, others just took it and tried to escape whenever PKs would show up. The latter outnumbered the former considerably on Atlantic.

Trammel was put in because something had to be done about the open PvP format. It truly was failing. This I will not deny. I still think something better than Trammel was possible, but based on many of answers I have gotten in this thread, I can see now that it might have been the only solution that would have made a lot of players happy.

From what I have read here, many players don't want to be killed by other players...ever. It's not necessarily a question of not wanting to be killed, but it seems to be a question of control. People want to be able to choose their experience in the game, rather than having that choice forced upon them by other players. There seem to be many reasons for this...some don't feel that they can compete, others feel that they don't want to have their play interrupted, and others still take it very personally and see it as an assualt on their person.

I don't think before this thread that I really understood fully where these people were coming from. I had almost always assumed that people didn't fight back in the old days because they were afraid to, or because they didn't think they could win. I think there was some of that, but I also think that there is more to it than that...a lot more.

How does all this relate to UO and a Classic Shard you might ask?

Well, I think before this thread, I honestly thought that if the shard opened with open PvP, but some checks in place to keep PKing from being out of control, that more players would play on it. I see that is not the case now, because according to many of the responses I have seen here, no amount of non-consensual PvP is acceptable to most of the people playing the game today. So with that said, I think that a Classic Shard will either have to be a Tram/Fel shard, or that it will have to be Fel only, but resign itself to being a predominantly PvP shard.

As for the current shards, I had hoped that more content could be introduced that worked PvP back into the mainstream...but I see now that it would be a mistake to do so. Without making judgements about the players that play in Trammel, I will say that they, as a whole, have no interest in this kind of content...for various reasons.

Thanks to those that responded to this thread. It has really helped me to solidify some ideas I have held, and revealed some new things to me.

Hopefully, it also helped a few to understand their fellow UO players a little better as well.

 

[Beer_Cayse]

That's my point ... Mods are people. They have feelings and opinions. Sometimes strong ones.

 

[Nexus]

I can answer that one.

UO was the only game of its kind when it came out...and honestely, there was no way of knowing, at first, what the PvP outcome would be. I played the beta, so I had some idea of what to expect, but what I got on launch day almost made me quit. The lag was horrible...so much so that in many cases you would get a black screen with a few sentences that players had typed like 3 minutes ago popping up at the bottom. If you typed something, it would take like 3-4 minutes before it would appear. The servers went down often, there were huge reverts, etc. And then there was the PKs. When the game ran properly, and that was rare in the first month or so, you could find yourself on the receiving end of a lag gank, or lost connection kill. You throw that in with the fact that no one advertised the game as open PvP...not really...and you got a lot of PO'ed players. Some of us got fed up with being PKed and fought back, others just took it and tried to escape whenever PKs would show up. The latter outnumbered the former considerably on Atlantic.

Trammel was put in because something had to be done about the open PvP format. It truly was failing. This I will not deny. I still think something better than Trammel was possible, but based on many of answers I have gotten in this thread, I can see now that it might have been the only solution that would have made a lot of players happy.

From what I have read here, many players don't want to be killed by other players...ever. It's not necessarily a question of not wanting to be killed, but it seems to be a question of control. People want to be able to choose their experience in the game, rather than having that choice forced upon them by other players. There seem to be many reasons for this...some don't feel that they can compete, others feel that they don't want to have their play interrupted, and others still take it very personally and see it as an assualt on their person.

I don't think before this thread that I really understood fully where these people were coming from. I had almost always assumed that people didn't fight back in the old days because they were afraid to, or because they didn't think they could win. I think there was some of that, but I also think that there is more to it than that...a lot more.

How does all this relate to UO and a Classic Shard you might ask?

Well, I think before this thread, I honestly thought that if the shard opened with open PvP, but some checks in place to keep PKing from being out of control, that more players would play on it. I see that is not the case now, because according to many of the responses I have seen here, no amount of non-consensual PvP is acceptable to most of the people playing the game today. So with that said, I think that a Classic Shard will either have to be a Tram/Fel shard, or that it will have to be Fel only, but resign itself to being a predominantly PvP shard.

As for the current shards, I had hoped that more content could be introduced that worked PvP back into the mainstream...but I see now that it would be a mistake to do so. Without making judgements about the players that play in Trammel, I will say that they, as a whole, have no interest in this kind of content...for various reasons.

Thanks to those that responded to this thread. It has really helped me to solidify some ideas I have held, and revealed some new things to me.

Hopefully, it also helped a few to understand their fellow UO players a little better as well.

I like yourself pre-date Trammel, though you've been around longer than myself I know exactly where you are coming from with this. I've tried telling folks that a Classic Shard that isn't at least UO:R era won't be worth the effort from Mythic's part. If Open PvP was an answer then Seige would be one of the highest population shards and it's not, far from it. The truth as I see it is simple, there has to be a balance and I'm not talking about Skills, or Templates but in play styles.

A shard can only support {X} number of PvP players if there is only {Y} amount of resources available. There has to be a healthy Crafting community, as well as a healthy resource gathering, and PvM community because each of those plays a part in supplying the PvP community with materials they use to enjoy their game play. This holds true even today, how many Reds did you see on Cu Sidhe until Dread Warhorses became the flavor of choice? The Reds didn't tame them....... How many vendors stocked full of Barbed Runic Kit made armor do you see around Yew Gate? Vally Hammer crafted weaps? Almost everyone in some small way plays a part in making PvP work... Did you buy that 120 Magery Scroll? You probably just forked over Millions to a PvPer to finance his fun. Sell some Arties during different Events? A lot of the time it's the PvP community that pays the premium for these items to work into their suits.

It's a big revolving circle I choose to play my part and expect and ask for the same courtesy...

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I like yourself pre-date Trammel, though you've been around longer than myself I know exactly where you are coming from with this. I've tried telling folks that a Classic Shard that isn't at least UO:R era won't be worth the effort from Mythic's part. If Open PvP was an answer then Seige would be one of the highest population shards and it's not, far from it. The truth as I see it is simple, there has to be a balance and I'm not talking about Skills, or Templates but in play styles.

I don't agree that a Classic Shard should be UO:R. And I certainly don't agree that Siege should be the stick by which the popularity of open PvP should be judged.

Siege is completely different than a Classic Shard. The only real similarity in current day Siege and Classic UO is that Siege is open PvP. There are just too many other variables in that equation to attempt to equate the two.

 

[Nexus]

I don't agree that a Classic Shard should be UO:R. And I certainly don't agree that Siege should be the stick by which the popularity of open PvP should be judged.

Siege is completely different than a Classic Shard. The only real similarity in current day Siege and Classic UO is that Siege is open PvP. There are just too many other variables in that equation to attempt to equate the two.

The reason I said UO:R era, or newer, is because that is the only way they can create a new shard that isn't open PvP and it technically be "Classic" instead of a Hybrid or Modified Rule set shard, without it being Open PvP.

I said Siege because that is the only measuring stick left to gauge the popularity of open PvP in a similar environment. RoT sucks to be sure but where else can you judge the effects of no insurance Mugen? I'll agree Siege isn't the best example but it's the closest there is at the moment.

Additionally I was simply stating an opinion, and I can sum it up as, any attempt at a "Classic" server that is set as prior to UO:R is doomed to failure, Total Open PvP is largely considered a failed ideal in the MMO world, that's why most MMO's have separate PvP and Non-PvP servers with no interaction between them, 90% of the market can't be wrong it's a tried and true set up while UO was basically breaking ground on everything it did.

Like i said that's my opinion, and fortunately the mmo market backs it up...

 

[Beastmaster]

I don't PvP because I have yet to find any PvPers that I can tolerate being in their presence more than 2 minutes. I have been in many PvP Vent and Teamspeak channels and I find their personalities to be well below those I choose to associate with.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

any attempt at a "Classic" server that is set as prior to UO:R is doomed to failure, Total Open PvP is largely considered a failed ideal in the MMO world, that's why most MMO's have separate PvP and Non-PvP servers with no interaction between them, 90% of the market can't be wrong it's a tried and true set up while UO was basically breaking ground on everything it did.

I think it is feasible to have a Classic Shard that is Fel (original) ruleset only. The thing is, it would basically be a PvP shard. I am not saying that is a bad thing, per se...but it is what it is.

One of the reasons I started this thread was to try and understand the playerbase, but I confess, I did have an ulterior motive. I wanted to gauge the tolerance the current playerbase has for non-con PvP. It's not very high.

This is something that the devs need to consider before launching a Classic Shard. I know, it sounds like I am shooting my own cause in the foot here...and maybe that is true...but I hope it proves to everyone that my real interest in this is making Ultima Online better. Unfortunately, it might be too late for that now. Time will tell.

 

[HD2300]

Additionally I was simply stating an opinion... Total Open PvP is largely considered a failed ideal in the MMO world, that's why most MMO's have separate PvP and Non-PvP servers with no interaction between them, 90% of the market can't be wrong it's a tried and true set up while UO was basically breaking ground on everything it did.

Like i said that's my opinion, and fortunately the mmo market backs it up...

This.

End all the bickering. Just give non-consentual PvPers their own supershard, and only consentual-PvPers their own supershard.

 

[Nexus]

I think it is feasible to have a Classic Shard that is Fel (original) ruleset only. The thing is, it would basically be a PvP shard. I am not saying that is a bad thing, per se...but it is what it is.

There are a lot of things that need to happen before any type of classic shard should or could be considered. I know from Cal's letters that they are working on some of the bigger issues with Speed hacks and 3rd party program detection, but then again I haven't seen a producer or Dev lead in the past 10 years that hasn't said the same thing... and look where we are.

I also don't know if the reason so many want it is because of nostalgia pure and simple, or because they would actually prefer it. You know the saying "The grass is always Greener....."

In all honesty there are a lot of things UO needs right now more than a Classic Shard though, we've seen a few faces leave in the recent past and not many new one's show up. There are very few on the Dev team that I can think of that have been around since even before AoS, to be honest the only ones I can think off hand are Mesanna, and Phoenix (The Dev Formerly known as Vex.), so even if they were to try and "Revert" things it would be difficult. And I seriously don't know if they have the resources to maintain a 3rd rule set, we already know Siege gets stuck on the wayside as it is at times, and even a Classic Shard would need some new content and updating...

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I also don't know if the reason so many want it is because of nostalgia pure and simple, or because they would actually prefer it. You know the saying "The grass is always Greener....."

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I can tell you, my reasons for wanting a Classic Shard are:

- To give former players a chance to come back and enjoy the game that was taken from them by past dev teams.

- A chance for current players to have an option if they grow tired of the current item-based grind.

- A chance to see what could have happened if Trammel and AoS had not been introduced.

- And most importantly, a chance to play the game that I fell in love with. Not because of nostalgia, but because I felt it was a better game experience. If I want nostalgia, I can watch videos of the first time I took my little girl to Disney World. This is not about nostalgia, it's about playing a game that I enjoyed vs. paying for, and not playing, a game I don't enjoy anymore.

 

[Derium of ls]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I can tell you, my reasons for wanting a Classic Shard are:

- To give former players a chance to come back and enjoy the game that was taken from them by past dev teams.

- A chance for current players to have an option if they grow tired of the current item-based grind.

- A chance to see what could have happened if Trammel and AoS had not been introduced.

- And most importantly, a chance to play the game that I fell in love with. Not because of nostalgia, but because I felt it was a better game experience. If I want nostalgia, I can watch videos of the first time I took my little girl to Disney World. This is not about nostalgia, it's about playing a game that I enjoyed vs. paying for, and not playing, a game I don't enjoy anymore.

/signed

 

[Tukaram]

I don't PvP because quit simply I do not enjoy it. I can try and explain why but there are so many factors it is easier to just say I like PvM better. There will be a lot of generalizations here but hey sometimes prejudices are there for real reasons, or at least make explanations simpler

Well I started way back in the oldie timey 1997 days. I was not surprised at the total immaturity in every PK'er I ran into (as Richard Garriott admitted he was, in numerous interviews). Quite frankly I never lived outside a guard zone long enough to meet any PvP'ers because the PK'ers had the guard zone camped. I hadn't even heard of a bank before someone dry looted me of everything I started with (which isn't much). I did not enjoy playing so I spoke with my wallet and quit the game. I came back for Trammel (LBR) and loved it. I always thought the game had great potential but too many childish, trash talking PK'ers.

Also I have always kind of seen it as a 'us v them' kind of game. The humans fighting the critters. I don't PvP in any game. I don't do Guild v Guild either.

I play to simply relax and have fun. My favorite things to do are skill building (I LOVE working skills), the Solen Matriarch quest, I used to really enjoy the Demon Temple and still do if I can drag the new, big, dragon (great dragon?) away and recall back to the temple (sorry if any residents get ganked by a lost dragon)

I have never enjoyed Fel but did play Siege long enough to get an 18x18 plot (with a 7x7 shack on it ) I thought Siege really had a much higher class player for the most part. I think because it does not have Trammel to go hide on. I had a crafter and a swordsman but just didn't really enjoy it so I traded my house for a Great Lakes house with an early settler of Iantown.

I still think they should have made a new shard for PvM only, with Guild v Guild etc and left the original lands alone. You would have the open PvP original lands and a new consensual PvP land. As the game grew they could make new shards for whichever rule set had the bigger population and needed to expand. The whole Fel/Tram thing was a bad idea then and still is.

And PvP just does not fit my personality.





As for the quest that led folks to Fel...

I did not hear of it until everyone posted here upset by the Fel portion. I was busy killing Solens and didn't hear about it, but there is so much I haven't done yet I don't pay attention to much of the new stuff. I think if a quest chain is going to involve PvP they should let people know upfront. Some people would be ok with it and some not. Those that don't want to do it can go do something else. But to go on this big endeavor and at the end find out it involves PvP is a bit lame. Yes you have the option to quit the quest but you wasted a lot time by then.

The Devs are still trying to find the right carrot to attract PvM'ers to PvP. I think the ones that want to PvP will, those that don't won't. I personally just don't like it. I won't go to Fel for powerscrolls, double resources, quests, EM events, or anything else I can think of. I do not wish to spend my gaming money on it. I'm glad it is there for those that want it. As was said in another thread, and I posted my agreement: I would pay to play Tram even if Fel were free.

 

[Victoria Navarre]

The fun in that and the quietness of doing my own own goals without being interrupted was much better than just killing some guy and have him get back up in a few minutes to do it all over again.

So for you, it's more about not having to conform to what someone else wants to do?

As in, you want to play at your own pace, and do what you want to do without worrying about someone coming along and changing that plan?

Make sense to me, if I understand it right.

To me,UOKaiser hit the nail right on the head. Forced pvp is just that. Forced. In principle,forced pvp'ing would be like "forced crafting". What if you had to be adept at making crafted items or leave the area if I kept bringing around my legendary tailor? Its funny to say but in principle it's the the same as forced pvp'ing.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

The poll results don't surprise me much. Personally I selected "I PvP when I have to, but not often." It shows that basically the readers of these boards are split about 40/60 in regards to PvP attitudes. (I included the do not pvp due to cheats as being pro-pvp as it implies they would pvp without all the cheaters).

You can skew these results any way you wish, because after all a poll is worth about a handful of peanuts because it's taken from a small sample pool. Myself, I feel that the poll results tell me that most of the current Stratics readers do not wish non-con PvP. This is why any classic shard is going to have to have strict murderer punishments, or just simply make it that you "opt in" for PvP, as in guild wars etc... Without a strong punishment for the PK's the classic shard will die.

I know many people want a classic T2A shard with all the old rules in place, but I think we're all going to have to realize in the end for it to be feasible it will have to be a hybrid style shard as the classic rules gave us Tram and eventually Age of Sucks and beyond. That is unless off course you support a classic shard with tram in it.

 

[Evlar]

My main dislike is AoS. Any "classic" era shard, whichever ruleset, I would play. I believe that most of the people in favour of a classic era shard, have a dislike for the item-centric nature of the game post-AoS. If that wasn't the case, I believe Siege/Mugen would be a lot more highly populated.

Simply put, were it not for AoS, certain restrictions such as my poor latency to Siege or Mugen, limitation on character slots, I would have been playing there already and for a long time. I know there are players from Europa who play Siege, but given my latency there, it prevents me from experiencing the "whole" of what's on offer. I like to explore all areas and play-styles. With poor latency, the PvP side of things would be pretty ineffectual for me sadly.

I get the impression from players who play on Siege, that there seems to be very little griefing or pointless PK'ing. By pointless, repeated rez-killing of weaker players, such as crafters or gatherers. It seems to be the exception rather than the rule. As for griefing, such as camping spawns, hogging dungeon areas, well, players can take action themselves to prevent such things, which is a deterrent in itself. Perhaps Siege players can clarify these aspects for me, given I've been unable to experience the shard first hand.

Based on that assumption, I believe that the chance of experiencing griefing and rampant PK'ing would likely be as reduced as it seems to be on Siege. This to me, would indicate that there's plenty of room for players of all classes and styles to work well enough within the shard, not just those who's sole intent is PvP.

Either way, we'll never know for certain unless classic shards are created. I know that some of the Siege players are concerned that classic shards might sound the death knell for their shard. Personally, I don't believe they will. I have the feeling that a classic shard might encourage many former players back to the game, but I also feel that the potential influx of new/returning players will open the doors for the game as a whole.

Some players might return, play classic for a while, but look at the other options available at the same time. Some of those players might actually prefer the other options to classic once they're here. In that respect, wouldn't it be a worthwhile exercise to use the "buzz" created around the MMO world, to use classic as a latch-lifter for the game as a whole?

 

[Fink]

My current understanding of the subject is different than what it was just a month ago.

Originally, I assumed that most people that don't like PvP (Trammies) felt that way because they were afraid.

Since then, I have read a few responses that got me thinking here...and I think I have a little better understanding of the issue.

Most of those answers seem to adopt a victim mentality. No offense to you, I'm sure you're only repeating what you've seen.

Myself, I don't actively pvp as I don't normally play combat characters. That is to say, I don't go looking for fights with other players. I do know how to handle myself if attacked and I accept the risk without complaint, welcome it in fact. Some would still regard that as Trammie, but then they would have a very narrow view of what sort of gameplay existed before Trammel.

I did pvp before AoS for fun, but since then the advanced math of it has turned me off. If I want to kill other players, I'll just load up a FPS game.

 

[DreadLord Lestat]

I started out playing in 2001 on the catskills shard. At that time, Cats was a very populated shard and you couldn't really go anywhere, even lowbie areas with the spawn being camped. I would go to the brigand camp a lot and there were always many people and it was hard to get in the first shot so against my friends advice I journeyed into fel. First place I went to was the brigand camp there and was delighted to find that it was empty. I must have been there for 2 hours before seeing anyone. He watched me for a couple of minutes before attacking. As none of my skills were over 65 I died quick but got in an e-bolt and a few swings of my katana before dying as at that time I was a warrior/mage hybrid. He looted my gold and took a couple itmes but left my regs and other stuff. I started spending all my solo time in fel though i did venture back to tram from time to time to play with friends. I eventually placed a small tower which I never would have been able to in tram due to overcrowding. Even my miner/lj wasn't hassled much unless I went to more popular mining spots for the colored ore. After killing me they would usually loot specific ore and then rez and heal me and I would be on my way. I died more than not but I enjoyed the thrill of having to watch over my shoulder at all times. I would occassionally run into the pk that would kill me, dry loot, me and tell me all about my mother but it was rare enough to let me enjoy fel. All was well until powerscrolls and AOS.

Seems that at that time, the gank squads and immature pk's came crawling out of the woodwork. I ran into them almost everywhere, even my lowly miner was fair game for 2-3 reds. Seriously, does it take more than 1 person to kill a helpless miner? What is the point of dry looting everyone everytime? What does my mother have to do with anything in game? They took the fun out of the fel ruleset when they went from being the exception to the norm. While I never went looking for PVP, I would stand my ground when confronted, even on my miner, until this lowly breed took over. I soon left my enjoyable facet for tram. While tram has its own share (probably the same gank squads only the are playing their blue tram characters) of mother hating people, at least I could play how I wanted to play though I truly miss looking over my shoulder for that semi-honorable pk that had once made my life interesting.

This is why I don't travel to fel much anymore or pvp. I have recently started playing a bit on siege and it reminds me of the old days as most of the players there are honorable and haven't ganked me, dry looted me, or informed me of all kinds of things relating to my mother. The downside is that I cannot recall, sell things to npc's or buy cloth, and have to deal with the ROT which is a bummer.

 

[Tina Small]

From what I have read here, many players don't want to be killed by other players...ever. It's not necessarily a question of not wanting to be killed, but it seems to be a question of control. People want to be able to choose their experience in the game, rather than having that choice forced upon them by other players. There seem to be many reasons for this...some don't feel that they can compete, others feel that they don't want to have their play interrupted, and others still take it very personally and see it as an assualt on their person.

I don't think before this thread that I really understood fully where these people were coming from. I had almost always assumed that people didn't fight back in the old days because they were afraid to, or because they didn't think they could win. I think there was some of that, but I also think that there is more to it than that...a lot more.

How does all this relate to UO and a Classic Shard you might ask?

Well, I think before this thread, I honestly thought that if the shard opened with open PvP, but some checks in place to keep PKing from being out of control, that more players would play on it. I see that is not the case now, because according to many of the responses I have seen here, no amount of non-consensual PvP is acceptable to most of the people playing the game today. So with that said, I think that a Classic Shard will either have to be a Tram/Fel shard, or that it will have to be Fel only, but resign itself to being a predominantly PvP shard.

As for the current shards, I had hoped that more content could be introduced that worked PvP back into the mainstream...but I see now that it would be a mistake to do so. Without making judgements about the players that play in Trammel, I will say that they, as a whole, have no interest in this kind of content...for various reasons.

Thanks to those that responded to this thread. It has really helped me to solidify some ideas I have held, and revealed some new things to me.

Hopefully, it also helped a few to understand their fellow UO players a little better as well.

Morgana, about thirteen months ago you started a thread titled, "Would You Still Play UO if it were All Fel Rules?" Have you forgotten the post you made here: http://vboards.stratics.com/showpost.php?p=1212282&postcount=86?

I really don't think anyone has said much that's new in this thread a year later. I told you a year ago I was much into PvP because I didn't feel the need to be so competitive. This year I told you I'm not into PvP because I don't feel I can compete, mostly because of lousy equipment, gear, and slow reflexes. I guess if I felt compelled to PvP I would do something about the lousy computer equipment and crummy in-game gear. Not sure how much I could do about slow reflexes other than practice a lot. But if I don't feel compelled to engage in one on one competition, I'll never upgrade anything just so I can PvP.

I also told you a year ago that another reason I don't PvP is because I don't like the idea of causing distress to the person behind the character I might have just clobbered. That still holds true today, except that I've come to realize that there are probably very few characters actually running around in Fel today that would actually be very distressed if I managed to kill off their character. Most anyone playing in Fel today shouldn't be surprised if their character is killed off by someone else's character. However, even after coming to that realization, I've still never felt the need to really seek out PvP. I can think of only two times in the last year or so that I wanted to go out looking for an actual fight with an opposing faction character. I've never had the desire to go out looking for a "helpless" character to clobber just because I could nor have I ever looked forward to a fight with nonfaction characters. Neither situation has any appeal for me. The first seems like a hollow victory and as far as the second situation goes, I know I'd be woefully unprepared both in terms of gear and experience so it wouldn't really teach me anything except perhaps some new trash talk.

Anyway, are you feeling any more enlightened than you might have felt a year ago, or are you going to be here a year from now telling us once again that you don't understand why so many people don't PvP in UO?

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I do remember that thread, and I do remember the answers I got. Unfortunately, my mindset was not what it needed to be to fully understand the answers I got.

I have a very hard time understanding the "Trammie" mindset. I am not going to lie. I do. I am a competitive person, I am a person that loves to excel at everything I do. I even look at my spinning class as a competition

But I have had some things that happened to me in real life over the last year or so that have made me question some of that. I won't bore anyone with the details, but let's just say that I have changed my mind on many things I once held very dear to me.

When I started this thread, I really wanted to get inside the heads of the playerbase...but more importantly, with the new quest controversy, and the talk of Classic Shards, I wanted others to be able to do so as well.

I think one of the things that people, myself included, forget here on UHall is that UO is a game that is made up of people. Real people, with real feelings, and real minds. All of us have things that we want, we need, we seek, and we avoid. I wish that more posters had been as honest as you were in this thread, because when I read a post like the one you posted, it makes me really understand that point. Instead, I feel like I got a lot of "I just don't like it...but I am not really going to explain what it is about it I don't like". Most of that stems from the fact that people (men mostly) don't like to talk about their feelings, and they feel a need to present some emotional 'brick wall'. The posters that went into the "I don't like PvP because all of the PvPers are 13 year old jerks that want to ruin the game for everyone else" posts, that's exactly what they are doing...shutting down, becoming defensive, and not being honest with us, or themselves.

If I had gotten no responses, honest responses, like yours...I think my perception would have remained exactly the same as it was. Maybe you did tell me the same thing a year and half ago...and maybe I wasn't ready to hear it? Either way...I know how to fill in the blanks in situations like this one.

My final conclusion from this thread is that any thought of going back to a non-con PvP model...at least on the current shards...should be avoided by the developers. Even small instances of it should be avoided. The playerbase is not one that would be accepting of such a thing. Is that bad? Is that good? Not for me to say. We all hold our own opinions on that...and draw our own conclusions from it. If anyone cares to know my conclusions, I will be happy to share them, but not in public. Private message me and I will be happy to share them with you, but I warn you, don't message me if you don't want to hear what I have to say on the matter. I am not going to argue with anyone over PM.

For what it is worth, I will say this...UO is exactly as it needs to be, at least as far as PvP is concerned on the current shards. Any deviation from the 100% consensual PvP model would not bode well for this game at this time.