The truth about Gold in Uo..

[Merlin]

Last I checked, it was like $.40 a mil.

Last I checked it was .20 to .25. Some even selling for .18. You just have to know where to look, and it's not on gold vendor websites. Only the big brokers and website vendors charge more than $0.25 USD.

Take a look in the rares forum sometime at the threads that have been around for several months now started by a couple of individuals where they add on more items every couple of days as they obtain the newest EM drops. Total up the value of all the items any one of these individuals has offered for sale in just one thread. The totals are just mind-boggling and for one individual are far more than just one billion per month.

That's a sign this game still has enough of a thriving economy that individuals are out there purchasing rares and other items from these brokers. There are certainly individuals out there making a living off of being a UO vendor/trader, and that's not a bad thing. It's clever on part of the people doing it. This is a good sign for the game and is to be celebrated. Once those people are no longer around... the last days of this game are not far off.

*Edited to remove RMT site names.

 

[Loriel]

My advice is to gather whatever evidence you have and take it Kyronix who seems to have a handle on this.

 

[NuSair]

Much like a recent thread in the warriors section, I've said my peace and it is senseless to discuss things with people who have made up their minds and refuse to believe anything else.

But, I'll leave you with this. There were people who used to line their floors with million gold checks. That had accounts maxed out that did nothing but hold checks. That have vendors in place, just to hold billions of gold. Years ago when the devs claimed they deleted X billions of gold in getting rid of some dupers/scripters, that was only a drop in the bucket. There were dups that allowed you to basically double everything in your bank. Everyday. It went unfixed for month, if not years, I really don't remember when it was fixed.

I try to help people understand just what all is going on. But, people will believe what they want to believe.

 

[Smoot]

Developer imposed "price controls" would be completely unacceptable. I couldn't disagree more. Who are a select few individuals to say what items should or shouldn't be priced at? Supply and demand, as with anything else, should dictate prices.

doesnt blizzard do this now with game time tokens for sale in game? just saying im pretty sure price sets do actually exist in other games.

 

[Merlin]

doesnt blizzard do this now with game time tokens for sale in game? just saying im pretty sure price sets do actually exist in other games.

UO isn't just some "other game"

But to your point... MAYBE with purchasable tokens from the online store bought with real cash, I could see putting a price limit on those items (i.e., Advanced character token, race change token). However, in-game items such as a slither or small soul forge... developer's should not be involved with putting price controls on those items.

 

[Smoot]

$1700 you would have to sell 4.25B in gold every month. Yea right.

more like 8 bil a month, but its out there. just one person i know banked 120 billion when shame loot first came out in a matter of around 4 months. crazy i know, but those were crazy times in the traders hall.

My playstyle lately has been an eventer. i dont farm shame loot (but i do get some loot from event mobs). i dont farm anything actually in the "regular" game but have put in the time to make characters on 15 shards, enjoying the story and live entertainment of one thing that really sets UO apart from other games. Just cant get that live, uniquely created content on a daily basis anywhere else than UO that i know of.

So myself, i technically do get alot of event items becuase i go to tons of events. But when it comes to gold, some of those items i keep for my personal collection, and alot dont sell. Id also say that probably a third of my gold just comes from running vendors. regular stuff sold off good location luna vendors so yes the items sell well. While event items do sell for hundreds of mils, its not as much as the idocers and shame farmers who treat UO as a job rather than a game played for enjoyment.

 

[Riyana]

A general reminder: while it is perfectly fine to discuss existence of third party real money sales sites and the effect they have on UO, it is not acceptable to name any specific sites as doing so constitutes advertising them. As third-party selling for real money is against the UO Terms of Service, advertising such sales is not allowed on Stratics.

This topic tends to raise hackles sometimes. Thanks for keeping this polite and on topic.

 

[Kael]

It changes the appearance, which is part of problem with the perception people have that the economy is out of whack, as well as simply not looking right for a sword/sorcery setting.

I think everyone wants optional goldsinks. Why would one be opposed?

The only true goldsink that would help in this matter would have to be an account bound one. Something with value only to you and can't be sold or traded. Like an ultra rare, mega expensive title or hair dye or skin pigment.

 

[Lord Nabin]

I felt the raffle for the New Magincia Plots was a pretty good gold sink.

I think it was in 2011 Spring.

 

[virtualhabitat]

They could sell those red with gold trim GM robes for 1 billion each. It's not like the GM's are using them anymore...

 

[Smoot]

on the subject of goldsinks, the only substantial perma one we have is vendor fees. how much does everyone think it is? i suppose one could calculate the exact amount adding up all the items on vendor search, on atlantic at least. im not about to do that tho

 

[whiterabbit]

People would be happier if they stopped paying attention to what and how much their neighbor has.

It's no one's business what I do with my gold or how much I have or don't have. I am sick of people declaring that somebody else has too much gold. Really? Are you like 5 years old? Why not just say what you really mean, to wit: "if I can't have it then no one else should have it either."

OBAMA SAYS YOU MUST SHARE

 

[Tanivar]

OBAMA SAYS YOU MUST SHARE

This would at least keep the money out supporting the economy instead of just vanishing into bank accounts never to be seen again. Businesses can't make money if to few have the money to buy their products, and then more wind up out of work due to layoffs so even fewer have money to buy what businesses make, and around and around and down the economy goes.

 

[Loriel]

I think the vendor fees are a disincentive to put products on the market and are disproportionate to the value of goods being sold today. When was the last time that vendor fees were updated in line with inflation ?

Personally I have a few things that I think are worth putting up for sale but giving people access to them is limited to shouting on general chat... usually one or two items at a time, or posting on the forums here.

The question is this, should the vendor fees be proportionate to your total gold reserves in the same way taxes apply in real life... rhetorically speaking yes as this would incentivise people who are building up their finances, to put items on vendors without being penalised for doing so.

It essentially gives people a realistic way to catch up to people and compete with them in a fairer market place.

The risk should be placed on those people who hold the most equity as they are the ones that can afford the losses should the items fail to sell over a sustained period.

This would require what has been talked about a lot already with regards to a global financial tracking system.

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

I think the vendor fees are a disincentive to put products on the market and are disproportionate to the value of goods being sold today. When was the last time that vendor fees were updated in line with inflation ?

Personally I have a few things that I think are worth putting up for sale but giving people access to them is limited to shouting on general chat... usually one or two items at a time, or posting on the forums here.

The question is this, should the vendor fees be proportionate to your total gold reserves in the same way taxes apply in real life... rhetorically speaking yes as this would incentivise people who are building up their finances, to put items on vendors without being penalised for doing so.

It essentially gives people a realistic way to catch up to people and compete with them in a fairer market place.

The risk should be placed on those people who hold the most equity as they are the ones that can afford the losses should the items fail to sell over a sustained period.

This would require what has been talked about a lot already with regards to a global financial tracking system.

I agree completely. I have a pretty fair amount of items that people actually USE in game. BUT, anything with a value of about 2M or higher I WILL NOT put on my vendors. I am not going to pay the vendor fees for them just to sit a while, as I am on a "lower" population shard!

 

[Merlin]

I think the vendor fees are a disincentive to put products on the market and are disproportionate to the value of goods being sold today. When was the last time that vendor fees were updated in line with inflation ?

Personally I have a few things that I think are worth putting up for sale but giving people access to them is limited to shouting on general chat... usually one or two items at a time, or posting on the forums here.

The question is this, should the vendor fees be proportionate to your total gold reserves in the same way taxes apply in real life... rhetorically speaking yes as this would incentivise people who are building up their finances, to put items on vendors without being penalised for doing so.

It essentially gives people a realistic way to catch up to people and compete with them in a fairer market place.

The risk should be placed on those people who hold the most equity as they are the ones that can afford the losses should the items fail to sell over a sustained period.

This would require what has been talked about a lot already with regards to a global financial tracking system.

If you think current vendor fees are a disincentive, I have a small feeling that some sort of progressive tax based on 'gold reserves' (wealth) will be an even larger disincentive.

No taxation without representation!

 

[Loriel]

I simply cannot wait till they implement a freer market economy by removing some trade barriers between shards. At the risk of losing out a few dollars on transfer tokens, without accounting for those people who actually do want to move shards completely they could speed up the global flow of currency and trade across the game which would encourage growth across all servers.

It would effectively encourage re-population to other shards as it would help dilute the concentration of an overcrowded Atlantic server with all those people now clamouring to find buyers for their items becoming more able to sell goods across the shards.

The vendor search should also allow for this expansion and include a shard field into the search bracket.

 

[Loriel]

Well it wouldn't be any more of a disincentive as it is now for the top bracket in terms of the actual rate.

 

[Loriel]

Well it wouldn't be any more of a disincentive as it is now for the top bracket in terms of the actual rate.

More like a scaling down for others not so well endowed

 

[Merlin]

Well it wouldn't be any more of a disincentive as it is now for the top bracket in terms of the actual rate.

Increased taxes is a disincentive to work and/or run businesses. Respectfully, that is a very basic economic principle.

Increasing a 'tax' or other business regulatory costs (in this game, vendor fees) would infact be more of a disincentive than it is now. Maybe I'm not following you line of reasoning, but I don't see how making 'wealthier' players pay more would some how benefit newer/less economically fortunate players.

 

[Loriel]

Yes I know the basic economic principles but you falsely believe that I am saying there would be an "increase" as you put it.

You know what I mean by saying scaling down from the current rate ?

 

[Loriel]

Essentially no one who is paying for a vendor now would pay a higher rate for that vendor than they currently do as I already explained.

Less wealthy players would essentially be getting a tax break

 

[Loriel]

On the subject of the very wealthy spending their hard earned... stabling facilities at their primary house would be a good one or even combining the chest of sending into something that allows you to bank from home

Only thing is that people wouldn't bother going to town anymore but essentially they would be paying for time saving devices.

 

[Lord Frodo]

I simply cannot wait till they implement a freer market economy by removing some trade barriers between shards.

Where are you getting this from. Your gold is going to be shard based with all chars on that shard able to use. Nowhere has it been said that the whole account would be able to use gold on other shards.

 

[Loriel]

Are you afraid that Atlantic's population will go down if it happens that there will be some wealth dilution and spread to other shards ?

Short term yes it may go down but long term it will generate growth as monetary circulation of the economy improves.

Anyone can see that the economy is stagnant because it is unbalanced at the top, top heavy if you like those sort of terms.

Everyone has been shouting come Atlantic... the streets are paved with gold... honestly that is not the case, the streets are paved with corruption that I hope is getting cleaned up as we speak.

I bet you come from Atlantic Frodo is that correct ?

What you Atlantic players are looking for is new buyers because that is what is needed but you wont get any if they cant afford to come and you wont get any if they cant take their gold back to their own shard with them afterwards.

 

[Loriel]

gold/items

 

[whiterabbit]

SOCALIZM

 

[old gypsy]

OBAMA SAYS YOU MUST SHARE

Let him go first.

Seriously, I really don't care how much gold anyone has, or how many valuable items. It doesn't really affect how I play.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Are you afraid that Atlantic's population will go down if it happens that there will be some wealth dilution and spread to other shards ?

Short term yes it may go down but long term it will generate growth as monetary circulation of the economy improves.

Anyone can see that the economy is stagnant because it is unbalanced at the top, top heavy if you like those sort of terms.

Everyone has been shouting come Atlantic... the streets are paved with gold... honestly that is not the case, the streets are paved with corruption that I hope is getting cleaned up as we speak.

I bet you come from Atlantic Frodo is that correct ?

What you Atlantic players are looking for is new buyers because that is what is needed but you wont get any if they cant afford to come and you wont get any if they cant take their gold back to their own shard with them afterwards.

So this is just your wish and has no fact to back it up. Did I say anything about any shard, NO i did not and for your info I am very happy to call Baja my home for the last 17 yrs. I guess you have your head stuck up in a dark place or something and you took offence that someone would dare question you.

 

[Loriel]

So this is just your wish and has no fact to back it up. Did I say anything about any shard, NO i did not and for your info I am very happy to call Baja my home for the last 17 yrs. I guess you have your head stuck up in a dark place or something and you took offence that someone would dare question you.

You are one very angry and unpleasant person.

What is the issue here exactly ? I took no offence and there's no need for me to justify what I have said to you at all.

You could explain what your problem is with what I am saying though.

Even if your home shard is Baja I wouldn't be surprised if you sell stuff on Atlantic as most people seem to do and that is not the issue the issue is how transferable funds and items are between shards.

That is what is causing stagnation.

 

[Loriel]

In addition... I am not going to attack your shard because I was there recently to see the museums there but apparently there is only 30 of you there is that correct ?

You are looking for a way out and you think Atlantic is your best option ?

I am not anti Atlantic because that is where a lot of the gold people own is stored but don't you wish that you could take your gold back after you sell stuff there and vice versa ?

 

[Loriel]

I bet you guys stopped trading with one another because all your gold was trapped over on Atlantic and that is unfortunate really.

 

[AtlanticRealtor]

I am not anti Atlantic because that is where a lot of the gold people own is stored but don't you wish that you could take your gold back after you sell stuff there and vice versa ?

Thats why we have Shard Shields and Transfer Tokens!!!

 

[Loriel]

Yes but once again that creates stagnation as only 14year+ vets can access transfer shields.

The idea is to promote growth from the bottom upwards rather than the top downwards this is what I explaining about the game being top heavy.

For the smaller transactions, in relative terms anything up to 45m that a transfer token costs in terms of gold, anything less than that is a waste of either real life money or gold if the profit of the trip does not exceed that.

Let us be honest for a moment how many new and newer players are going to be able to get into trading quickly when it is that expensive to get to the buyers/sellers ?

Level the playing field in terms of providing the market for cross shard buying and selling, promote the shard that is local to you and encourage the growth of smaller business to fill in the empty middle class in an admittedly elitist and insular society.

You want to make the game sustainable again then these are necessities people

 

[THP]

To be honest....the sooner the new money system is finished and gold checks are a thing of the past the better....[end]

 

[AtlanticRealtor]

I honestly dont think is fair!! (But that is my opinion)
I played from 98 to 2004 than I quit, gave all away for the most!
I came back in 2010 with Nothing, and re opened 3 accounts from the old days, Yes, I was in shock with the prices of everything and Houses and suits and so on.. and yes a returned player cant get the "cool" things or "Hi End" without investing ... I am honestly, I had to "Adapt" and all I did was some Googling here and there and I had to "adapt" and today I own quite a few accounts, I am not suggesting anything to anyone, but that was my decision back in 2010, I take as the real World that we live, You have to invest to make money... and I invest a lot of time!!! that is just my 2 cents!!

I didnt have Shard Shields before, But I do Idocs on a lot of servers, and you can also share the Transfer token with other "friends" and bring home 5 packies and the bank , so we talking about not even 10M per person!!!,

 

[AtlanticRealtor]

To be honest....the sooner the new money system is finished and gold checks are a thing of the past the better....[end]

Ti the point of Duped Gold only!! Because Honestly nothing will be different!!, I think will be better because will stop Gold Dupe and will stop Scam for items over 175M, But in reality Nothing will change!!, Because you will be able to transfer from 1gp to 1 Billion to p2p with no problem, I assume you just have to type the amount of gold to transfer or it will be a slide bar!!!, same exactly thing maybe when you withdrawn Gold from Vendor!!!

 

[Mikeltin5]

Being a player with only a 4 year acct (though off and on for many years) I'm unable to access the shard shields as Loriel has mentioned. But I have never come across players in my guild not willing to make trips for themselves and take my items along to other shards or bring items back (generally they make special trips just for me that others tag along on to make it more worthwhile). So I don't really see the issue on the lower end. It's not to say I'm poor or cannot afford xfer tokens...but why spend all that money when more seasoned acct's are willing to make the trip in my stead.

And from various posts I've seen on the forums, there's several individuals ( @BeaIank @THP ) just to name a few that post over several forums they're xfering shards and dates to allow people to move stuff from different shards for free. I don't sell on other shards only buy from different things I see on vendors and the forums, but I find it hard to say that the lower end of the market cannot excel in these conditions, as they can xfer their items/gold for free in most guilds. We have 99% veterans and maybe 1% new players that play UO anymore. So most guilds have at least 1 or 2 14+year people that bump around from time to time. And as long as you're not a **** to ppl, you can generally find others not in your guild making trips you can send stuff or bring stuff back on.

So from my experiences, its the top market (as far as acct age is concerned) that's helping the lower market (again age and also wealth) get a leg up in the game. Now the inexperienced/not-so-wealthy players can tag along on hunts/bosses and get good loot to advertise/sell and make good money on and help level the playing field.

 

[Loriel]

I don't think people are missing the point and all that people point to in response is some genuine togetherness and social responsibility to one another but it simply isn't enough to sustain the game any more.

It takes far too long for any new player to get into the game and there simply isn't the number of guilds out there anymore that are willing to spend time with new players to get them up and running.

Yes there are good people out there who ARE willing to help out but I have to say chaps those that willingly spend time doing this are few and far between.

The experiences you have mentioned are what makes UO a great game but just because the option for people to band together like this it doesn't mean that everyone is willing to take it up.

I am glad @THP agrees with me on this because of his experience with shard transfers and it is clear he helps people with clear intention with the future of the game in his heart.

However there is also the speed and convenience factor that is necessary in any consumer economy and the barriers as they are just don't allow for this to be taken into account when looking at promoting growth and recovery of the game.

Ally this to the exorbitant vendor rates, the over crowding and crystallization of a stagnant market place this means that everyone has a responsibility to work very hard to keep this game afloat.

The other great thing about UO is that contrary to what one person believes this game is ever in flux due to the close relationship of the dev team to the player base and their requirements.

Things will change things have changed and with everyone's continued input and commitment they will change for the better.

The solutions are there all written down and if you take the time to look at how, you will see them.

 

[Tanivar]

Ally this to the exorbitant vendor rates, ...

Calling the vendor rate exorbitant is like calling a gallon of water a lake. Simple solution to reducing the vendor fee, drop your prices out of the stratosphere and bring them down to Earth. Prices customers don't think are ridiculous makes vendors pretty cheap because the items sell.

 

[Loriel]

Calling the vendor rate exorbitant is like calling a gallon of water a lake. Simple solution to reducing the vendor fee, drop your prices out of the stratosphere and bring them down to Earth. Prices customers don't think are ridiculous makes vendors pretty cheap because the items sell.

Yes I agree on this also, however it is just the flip side of the coin really.

People feel they need to charge exorbitant prices for items to balance the rates they have to pay but in addition you have to take into account the level of inflation as it is now because that is one thing that is very difficult to reverse.

Of course there is clearly another more sinister side to it which I have noted that people touch upon quite frequently and that is greed, plain and simple.

However what you are suggesting, although the reasonable thing to do in these circumstances, there is no way to enforce that without scaling the vendor fees appropriate to individual wealth, this in turn can carry a further association with total guild wealth.

 

[Smoot]

Calling the vendor rate exorbitant is like calling a gallon of water a lake. Simple solution to reducing the vendor fee, drop your prices out of the stratosphere and bring them down to Earth. Prices customers don't think are ridiculous makes vendors pretty cheap because the items sell.

that works with some things, but with armor alot of the time a piece is worth a good amount but you just have to wait until someone needs it. vendor solution in that situation is acutally raise the price to account for the vendor fees. i could sell a piece of armor instantly for 10m (resale price for someone who doesnt actually need it, buying to just put in a box in case they need in the future) or get its full value of 50m. paying the vendor fees is well worth it to get that full amount. you just have to judge how long it will take to sell.

and theres always stratics, thats what the forum is for. to make items available with 0 vendor fees to wait till someone needs it.
also, location is a must. its well worth the 200k front row luna vendors, and even my 2m per week luna vendors just becuase those locations have lots of walkers by and actually sell things for higher than comprables that can be found on vendor search (because its just easier to buy something you see)

point is, there are many ways to sell things. if your a smart, active seller who doesnt just throw every single thing you want to sell on vendor, takes things off if little interest, adjusts prices, the vendor fees are very insignificant.

 

[Smoot]

However what you are suggesting, although the reasonable thing to do in these circumstances, there is no way to enforce that without scaling the vendor fees appropriate to individual wealth, this in turn can carry a further association with total guild wealth.

i agree with your mindset, id love to see 0 vendor fees for a player who only has 100k gold to their name, however its just not possible. if this ever happened, id simply move all my gold to 1 account and use the empty / "poor" account to run all my vendors. i pay around 8 mil gold a day, plus 7mil per week for the rentals. Yes, if i could save that gold i would. it can be called greed, but it can also called just being rational.

 

[Loriel]

Well the point is that your accounts would be linked mate in your name/ by your credit card etc

 

[Smoot]

Well the point is that your accounts would be linked mate in your name/ by your credit card etc

well, i never link my accounts, recommend to anyone else not to link them. you know account management, if theres a problem with 1 dont i dont want it to effect all. i only have 2 accounts btw, i would hate to think if someone had same info for 5 or more accounts and lost it all because of a problem.

 

[Lord Frodo]

You are one very angry and unpleasant person.

What is the issue here exactly ? I took no offence and there's no need for me to justify what I have said to you at all.

You could explain what your problem is with what I am saying though.

Even if your home shard is Baja I wouldn't be surprised if you sell stuff on Atlantic as most people seem to do and that is not the issue the issue is how transferable funds and items are between shards.

That is what is causing stagnation.

In addition... I am not going to attack your shard because I was there recently to see the museums there but apparently there is only 30 of you there is that correct ?

You are looking for a way out and you think Atlantic is your best option ?

I am not anti Atlantic because that is where a lot of the gold people own is stored but don't you wish that you could take your gold back after you sell stuff there and vice versa ?

WOW What is your problem? I ask you where you got some info about and you go off into left field. I am sorry and I understand what your real problem is.

Yes but once again that creates stagnation as only 14year+ vets can access transfer shields.

I am sorry that I and others have been here long enough to have these as a reward and you do not. Yes I visit Alt along with 10 other shards and I sell items that I make along with buying items from Alt and the other shards that I take back to my home shard that are hard to find. Sorry it upsets you so much that I am able to do this. I have transported many items to and from many shards for players as have other long time players that have these shields. Yes I would love to have all my gold account bound where alls I had to do was get my items once a month but I understand that this is not going to happen. Once again sorry you haven't been here long enough and I have heard your DOOM AND GLOOM about UO for 17 years and guess what we are still here so think what you want UO will be here longer than you think.

 

[Lord Frodo]

OBAMA SAYS YOU MUST SHARE

Very well said. Isn't it sad that some of us have been here forever and there are people that think they deserve everything now.

 

[Loriel]

I think you are mistaking the emotional motivation I have towards this project as jealousy ?

My motivation is pure and simple: To get an economy that is flowing in reverse, even dying for that matter, to quote one particular person who has more of a grip on the situation than any of you, to recover and thrive again.

Honestly mate I started playing this game 15 years ago so for you few naysayers who cant seem to wake up to the reality of the situation, actually I know the game pretty well indeed.

With regards to the shard shield all they would need to do is to change the functionality of them so that anyone can use them once they are placed by someone who has access to them having earned the veteran reward.

It would work in a similar way to other useable objects people place in their homes to attract visitors for various reasons.

Just a minor tweak really in the short term can make a big difference whilst the financial and monetary improvements come out with the expansion.

Really it would be a trial to see how much the economy improves over a short period of time, say a few months or so.

To be direct, look at the transcript of the latest Europa meet and greet with the devs and you will see that they have had most of this in the pipeline for some time but have been working on the man power to do it.

I will admit that they are merely hinting at what they are going to do in the transcript but let me ask you this:

Would they be working on a currency conversion if there was no way to actually convert the currency ?

That is what the devs mean by this so in essence you would have access to the cash on whatever shard.

 

[Smoot]

Id love to see something to stimulate some of the less popular shards. not sure vendor fees is the way to do that, but its good to see people are thinking about it.

 

[Loriel]

The mistake people have been making is not thinking globally about the issues, scaled vendor fees is just one aspect of the complete package.

"Build it and they will come."

The most sustainable MMOs are the ones with the best working economies and to build a better economy you start from the ground up just the way you build anything, with a solid foundation for new players to start from.