Something to chew on while I'm gone

[Xanthri2002]

Dear Mr Tact,

I recently saw your post concerning stat and skill gain and figured for once it was time to put some input to a game I have loved over the years(but have recently given up)

First as someone who programs myself, I tend to find most of the loopholes in the training programs not because I try desparately to break the rules, just because I see those types of things(call it active testing) I can tell you that I have GM's every skill apart from begging, herding, ETC and hav gone completely legendary from scratch in them also. I for a time period would buy a blank account build it up until it had 4-5 5-6X GM or a couple of 7X and then resold to pay for my UO habit.
- I can tell you IMHO that skill gain is too EASY way too easy.
- Skill points should be based on character age, NOT ACCOUNT age.(I know this would be difficult but if chars got increase for how old the char was it would make the game more interesting. forcing ppl to recreate chars rather than make a new one in a few days.(Why should someone who has played for years have the same skill cap as someone who just started.)

-as far as imbalances go this is reasonable since trammel and Malas would protect those ppl from a char becoming too powerful in PvP...

- First things first DO AWAY WITH 8 X 8....It makes life and skill gain WAY too easy. Reward persistance but with that said GMing a char should mean something. I remember when I first started the game it took me 2 months of constant fishing to GM fishing and most ppl told me that was record timing.

Stat gain....Go back to allowing see saw method. or even better just let ppl distribute the 225 when making the char....everyone should have equal str and the real advantages to any char should be in the skills they obtain.

-Skills are becoming SO bad nerfed it is taking a lot of the fun out of the game. Can't hardly use magery without eval....that is NUTS. yes I agree that gm eval should make a mage more powerful but when I have a gm mage without eval casting FS for next to zero damage and not being able to use str agility cunning bless spells....ridiculous.

- Macroers continue to ruin the game. All Shards should go to some form of Siege Perilous ruleset when it comes to skill gain. Maybe not as much or limit the total amount of gainper day. something has to be done.

I hate for ti to take a long time to get GM but I can tell you I was more satisfied with reaching 85 with my tamer than I was 120ing eval magery necro ETC....

Taming is too damn hard LOL only skill that is still really a pancake to gain in...that and resist(though there are still tricks).

so your stat gain idea is good but why not just let ppl distribute the points and if they change their mind then they just need to manipulate arrows.

I have been rambling but I can tell you I can GM any skill but nox, scribe and taming within a day or 2. magery now takes about 8 hours from zero to GM.....if you want the secrets you can email me at home at [email protected] I am leaving anyway I can drop a few bombs and hopefully if I ever come back the game will be better.

one reason I say limit skill gain is this. I am someone who cannot play 24/7 like some...I never macro unattended...why should I not be able to gain the same as someone who macros or scripts all day? then if you make char age mean more skill points you could start a char at a lower limit say 620 then give him 5 pts a month - at 12 months 680 would be limit then change it to 5 every 3 months meaning a two years char would get 700 then 5 pts per 4 months 3 years 715 and then 5pts evey 6 months for the rest of the time the char is on an account.

Yes PPL would pancake. or you could but if skill gain was somewhat limited who cares. You would revitalize the UO ebay account buying and selling and probably bring a lot more ppl back in the long term.

 

[Xanthri2002]

Faster skill gains???? Are you ppl NUTS. Most ppl in their replies are talking about faster gains. if you want faster gains go to testcenter and have a blast.

Some common themes -

Raise the skill cap - ABSOLUTELY but base it on Character age not account age.

Make lower Skills MEAN something - this is a SUPER idea I saw a few times wouldn't it be nice to have a 75 swords guy and be proud of them? of course with AoS changes this may be impossible....crap I have dided more since AoS came out then playing the 4 years prior....fighting orcs can be hard now LOL

Do Away with MACROERS once and for all....forget all the anti macro code scrap it throw it away. make a daily skill cap based on how high you are. Then make it where you can get your skill cap relatively easy(say 1-2 hours)

Stats are broken - Damn Right. I say let everyone distribute the 225 when char is made - hell combat is hard enough without having to choose between 60 str and 40 so you can have some mana.... Screw that.


Forget about skill difficulty - stratics gives this info for free why right more code that will further slow down the game

GM skill - 3-4 months. why so long? it should mean something to be GM. of course with that said lower skills need to mean something more. at 70 you get special moves(why not make a series of special abilities that you get as you gain)

Make all gains the same - hell ya....unless you want to say because taming is harder, a tamer is a better char than a warrior. I always hated how weak warriors were in PvM....pally helps...everywhere you go EXCEPT UO a beginning mage is weak and a GM would be strong and a warrior is strong when young and not as strong as mage(depends on how you work it but with that said GM Mage should be a lot harder and right now it is the exact opposite.

again enough rambling....

 

[Goldenblack]

Dolittle's proposed system has the virtue of rewarding (and not penalizing!) casual players, while still allowing gains for power-gamers, albeit at a lesser rate of skill gain (from what I understand).

I think its a good idea. A person does get worn out and tired the more they do something, and is likely to learn less than they did at the beginning of the day, so it's even realistic in a way. It's kind of like powerhour, but it reduces the absolute scrambling (a very unrealistic element), and is more open and lenient than the very short timespan of one hour. If I've understood it correctly.

-Goldenblack

 

[Goldenblack]

Maledicta raises the good point, which I hadn't thought of, that if people were told a thing is too easy, it is a mickey-mouse indicator of exactly what they should be doing/fighting/taming and what they should not. It herds players, instead of allowing them to do what they want (rp, explore, enjoy figuring our where all the gains are themselves, interact with and ask others for help on gaining), it DISCOURAGES that sort of exploration, interaction, and puzzle-solving. So I guess, such a warning is not such a good idea, now that I think about it.

Maledicta also indicates that skill gain should, as much as is feasibly possible, without taking away from the fun factor, imitate real life, and I think that should be the core of any skill gain system. Screw 8X8. Screw powerhour. Allow people to stand still and do skill gains repetitively, but as per Dolittle's idea, have the rate of skill increase lower and lower, over the course of the day.

-Goldenblack

 

[Goldenblack]

MerlynDavis raises the excellent point that artificial measures shouldn't ideally be needed to GM a skill.

I don't want to secretly have to fight dragons in only my underwear, using a dagger that is mostly broken, continuously changing the direction I am facing, while dancing, reciting the secret mantra of impossible swordsmanship gain, and occasionally moving 8 tiles, in order to eventually feel that I have mastered swordsmanship. What if I choose not to visit stratics, and learn all these silly little secrets on how to actually GM a skill? I realize things aren't so hard now with GGS (I think, I'm a new player, so correct me if I'm wrong), but honestly.

Thou must needs be careful that thou dost not implement difficulty based skill systems that require secret measures, that a player mayst not reasonably be expected to discover on their own (such as wearing ringmail while sneaking--a person would have to look that up to discover it; they're unlikely to through normal experimental gameplay).

-Goldenblack

 

[Goldenblack]

That's kind of a cool idea, Barakka, but it is too unrealistic (a person should gain skills no matter if they've passed a quest or ceremony or not), and it does limit freedom to strengthen at a certain critical point.

-Goldenblack

 

[Goldenblack]

There was a major typo in my post.

I meant to say that players who stand around doing insane repetitive stuff should -NOT- be penalized. (I forgot the word not)

-Goldenblack

 

[Goldenblack]

Given that many players believe that no matter how involved macro-prevention programming may be, hackers will always be able to circumvent it, here is my request:

It is annoying to have to wait 5 seconds doing nothing before I can try another skill. For instance, I cannot hide, and then track; or heal, and then track, to see what that noise was (some player's lich statuette).

I attempt to hide. I fail. I am not allowed to track for an agonizing period of time. I cannot heal either until I artificially wait 5 seconds or whatever.

It is just that waiting isn't any fun. If a person is good enough to successfully perform a skill, they shouldn't have to continuously wait 5 seconds before doing ANYTHING else, besides walking, or staring at the grass, and thinking about RL, and that maybe they shouldn't be wasting their time on a game that wastes THEIR time.

Anyone agree? Don't you all find yourselves staring at an annoying stream of "You must wait a few moments before attempting another skill" messages, EVEN when you are just trying to play the game normally, and are not intent on macroing, or powergaming, or rapid skill gain?

-Goldenblack

 

[Goldenblack]

::laughing::

I think Douglatz's post about Macro-Prevention is an extremely good idea (the alchemist poisoning himself, or accidentally making a lit explosion potion, etc.)

-Goldenblack

 

[Guest]

Is there any way I can buy just 5 days of game play?

Seeing how often I log in anymore, that should be more than enough...

 

[Goldenblack]

Zardo put it perfectly:

"My opinion is it should be easy to get a skill up to a useable/fun level, but if you want to GM it it would take a long time."

-Goldenblack

 

[Goldenblack]

Re: Steffrupp
Agreed.
100 hours ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM for GMing, and it is -quite- possible that a lower timeframe would be much more ideal. Maybe it should depend on the skill. However, more than 100 hours is insanity, so please don't.

-Goldenblack

 

[Goldenblack]

Sorry, Donal but whenever I see a little coloured message in the corner of the screen, I get a giddy little thrill of achievement, and it encourages me to keep at what I'm doing. That's why I DO NOT think stat gains should be decoupled from skill gains--stat gains add to the thrill of acheivement.

I apologise for being overdramatic, but:

MY GOD HOW F*ING DISCOURAGING IT WOULD BE CRAFTING, FIGHTING, ETC. IF IT SEEMED LIKE I WAS MAKING NO GAINS OVER SUCH LONG PERIODS OF TIME.

The messages in the corner of the screen at least let you know: "Keep at it! You ARE improving, even if it doesn't seem like it! You are one step closer to supremacy!!!"

I think the game would be far less fun / palatable without those little messages.

-Goldenblack

 

[Goldenblack]

Burl, you have said the game should not be too easy; it should be work to be valued.

I think it would be truer to say that DIFFICULTY CAN INCREASE BOTH THE FUN AND THE REWARDING ELEMENTS OF THE GAME, IF ITS NOT TOO OVERBOARD OR IMPOSSIBLE, BUT BORING-NESS/LACK-OF-VARIETY IS DETRIMENTAL TO FUN, TO PLAYERS, AND TO THE GAME AS A WHOLE.

In other words, Yes! I believe the game should be -fairly- difficult, in order to be fun and rewarding. No! I don't believe that it should be too easy. BUT NO! THE GAME SHOULD NOT FOCUS ON THE REPETITIVE, UNREWARDING ELEMENTS. The difficulty of the game should largely be in funner sectors, than in the sheer quantitative endurance of repeatedly doing something for days (especially if there is little death-risk in that repeated task). The only way to make such an activity standable (yes, I like to invent words) is to reward the player with rapid gains/thrills-of-achievement-in-the-form-of-coloured-gain-messages. However, I have heard that gains are very slow in the upper ends, and one rarely sees those messages, and a person should not be forced to dwell in that sector of the game for months, because, well, that just sucks.

-Goldenblack

 

[Goldenblack]

I stand corrected, DrDolittle (about GGS).

I am a fairly new (and fairly casual) player, and my highest skill is at 83.

I didn't quite realize that GGS became so slow in the upper ends.

Thanks for enlightening me.

::Nods in respect::

-Goldenblack

 

[Goldenblack]

All I know, Burl:

...is that I love cooking but I could not stand it if it had gained any slower.
...is that I think it's a rewarding and challenging puzzle to solve, figuring out what monsters you can handle and what monsters increase your skills, and where those spawns are, and what areas to avoid. The present system encourages tackling a certain small number of monsters that you can handle, before moving on to the next group. I think the game forced me to spend just the perfect right amount of time fighting skeletons, then fighting wolves, then fighting bears, lizardmen, etc., BUT I would not have been able to stand it if it took any slower to move on to the next group of monsters.

I don't want to fight wolves for four weeks straight, waiting to move up to bears, while I still run screaming from every random harpy.

I don't think any New Player's goals in the game is to be able to kill bears. When we hear about all these cool new monsters and we hear about dungeons, is it realistic to expect us to lower our goals to never being able to touch a dungeon or non-skeleton-monster for weeks and weeks of discouraging gameplay?

My maximum skill is 83, to date all of my experiences with UO indicate that the skill gain is perfect, but COULD NOT STAND TO BE ANY SLOWER. I would not mind quicker skill gain than the present system, but the advantage of the present 'about-as-slow-as-it-could-get-while-still-being-fun-for-new-players (as I see it) system are: (1) Achievements mean more, as you said. And (2) EA makes more money. And (3) I have an amazing stress-relieving thing to enjoy doing, that I won't use up within a month.

But I could not stand it any slower. It is exactly the slowest it can get while still being fun, IMO. However, I will see how it is gaining beyond 83. Maybe I'll come to believe that skill gain becomes too slow. We'll see.

-Goldenblack

 

[Goldenblack]

"Make lower Skills MEAN something
- this is a SUPER idea I saw a few times wouldn't it be nice to have a 75 swords guy and be proud of them? of course with AoS changes this may be impossible....crap I have dided more since AoS came out then playing the 4 years prior....fighting orcs can be hard now LOL "

You said it.

-Goldenblack

 

[Liena_of_LS]

Don't forget to factor pet skill gains as well. Since AOS it's almost impossible to get a pet to gain in meditation.


Some skills SHOULD take longer to gain in, BUT ONLY if the after GM'g abilities are higher.
Since AOS 7 day wonder warriors and paladin/necro unattended macroing freaks rule the world for ability to kill things. Not like before when tamers ruled AFTER TAKING 1 yr or more to GM the skills.

The balancing this way was totally ruined with AOS.

While you're rebalancing the stat/skill gains, PUT SOMEONE ELSE ON rebalancing the relative strengths of the character templates you guys messed up royally. Don't screw over the classes who HAVE ALREADY put in over a year to get a working character by making your 7 day wonder warriors as strong or stronger. I can't count the number of midlevel warrior types who have taken over the areas that used to be doable ONLY in groups by warriors, but ok for solo work for tamers or mages. BOTH classes who had to WORK for their GM'ships and are now getting screwed.

Think armed forces here. Infantry has it's uses, but can't take out jet planes and really have to work in teams to take out tanks. Jet planes however, take longer and higher grades/intelligence to be able to fly them, and can pretty much level the playing field. Tank drivers also have to have higher scores than your infantry, and can do a bit more.

Warriors ARE infantry
mages/bards ARE tank drivers and such
TAMERS are air force.

Each takes longer to learn, and the abilities are greater, much like in real life where that college degree actually means something if you want the better paying jobs.

If all classes have the same chances with all the monsters, why bother taking 10 times longer or more to GM a skill like bards or mages or tamers.

Solo warriors should NOT be able to take out a dragon or ogre lord without having it take a RL 30 minutes and LOTS of running to heal.

IF it were me, I'd base the ability to solo a monster on the monster's fame AND put in a better way for all in a party to GAIN fame for grouping to kill the monsters. THAT is your biggest problem for your warriors wanting to be able to solo the monsters, that and sharing the loot. I'd have monsters being killed solo drop normal loot, and those being killed by someone in a group (where ALL of the group are there and have done damage to it) drop loot accordingly so that the ADVANTAGE of soloing a monster goes away.

IE: if one person/pet solos a monster it drops normal loot, but if a group of 3 take it on and all three do damage it drops 3 times the loot. SAME for fame.

And, any player hitting the monster while NOT in the group would get no looting, nor increase the loot dropped.

IF while grouped, the monsters gave the (put number in group here) times normal fame (even putting in a factoring system where that fame was more if the group was NOT all gm's and less if it were), and the group leader got like 20% of that total fame for BEING the group leader, then the remaining 80% of the fame was divided evenly over the (put number in group here) players, it would also promote higher level players leading groups of lower level, and not as aware of the dungeon areas, in to fight the monsters. (This could also be done with the TRAVEL POINTS ie: 8x8 for gaining better ability to gain in the skills)

This would promote grouping, cut down on the kill stealers for they wouldn't have looting rights UNLESS they were grouped with the first person to hit the monster, and make it easier for fame hunters to get it EVEN with the fixes to make infantry less effective to solo the bigger monsters unless in a group.

MY TWO CENTS

 

[Guest]

All skills are different, and some should be a little harder to raise than others. Barding, Taming, Magery, etc... That said I already believe they are fairly difficult to raise. Crafting skills, those make no difference to me, seems these days everyone has atleast one on their accounts, changing skill gains on them now will only effect new players, who are already coming into a game, where they're at an disadvantage. Vets, have game experience, nifty rewards, and more skill points to work with, and a good portion gained skills during powerhour days. To go around and start tweaking and making skills harder to gain in, is a terrible idea.

If anything warrior skills as they are now just be made a little easier, not saying it should go back to gming those skills in a few hours off an npc. But do something, I just recently started a new paladin on a new account, and can't believe how incredibly lame raising those skills are now.

Also why is there a cap on stats per day? If you wanted to cut back on see sawing, just make it so you can only gain one every 10-15 minutes, thru using skills, but don't limit them. I could play an entire day on saturday or sunday trying to build my character, but after the first few hours I gain no more stats... Lame....

8x8, macroing, etc... I could care less if people use these tactics, they play the game the way they see fit, I play it the way I see fit. The code was to move every 8 spaces to gain, and people figured away to continue their macros, you change it again, they'll find away. Nothing is ever fool proof, and I'm not bothered by it. I'm sure at some point in time everyone will find themselves on a boat doing one or the other, or both. If I had any say, I'd want powerhour back, I hate ggs. I want to come into the game build up my characters, most are built already these days, but even on the new account, I want to train and build the character. Then go play him... Faster his skills are raised, the more use and fun I'll get out of playing the character.

 

[Liena_of_LS]

[quote[
I think one thing overlooked in this thread is that there have been major changes to skills but the cap has remained static. Power Scrolls eliminated the 7xGm and raised the indiviual skill cap. AoS created a bunch of new skills and nerfed others. Most skills are coupled so it becomes very difficult to try new things on an established character without taking drastic measure. For example Magery and EI and Med, Weapon Skill and Tactics and Anatomy, Music and Provoking and Discord and Peace, Animal Taming and Lore and Vet. This leaves very little room to try anything new without screwing up your template. Some skills have been redone and are of dubious value (Magic resist, Arms Lore) but people who have spent lots of time and effort to GM them are reluctant to drop them especially when the devs say they are "looking at making changes in the future." This basicly handicaps veteran players who have full templates. The "soulstone" concept needs to be looked into. There should be some way to "archive" skills and place them on a "holding" character. Maybe the vet reward cap needs to be doubled or the entire cap raised by 100. Im not sure what the solution is but I think a dialog on the subject is needed.

<hr></blockquote>

UMMM no, the cap has NOT remained static, it in fact LOWERED with the change to using show real rather than the modified for str/dex/int. IT LOWERED by approximately 350 points PER CHARACTER. Admittedly not all these points were fully utilized, BUT a goodly number of them WERE in fact in use, especially for those who had NOT yet gm'd the skills effected. Modified skill WAS what was used to determine the minimum levels you could do things at, and those minimum levels were NOT changed with the switch over to show real. This in effect made use of the skills take a higher level of skill that the skills NOW take at the modified minimum skill needed levels requiring show real values.

IE: making savage paint, which took 80 MODIFIED and about 68.3 show real, now takes 80 show real. Quite a significant change. Mares that tamed at 95.1 modified and about 93.5 show real, now take 95.1 show real. Pet bonding for anything more than a normal riding horse/beetle/llama BROKE for many who had the taming needed to bond the pet using modified values and lower show reals when the system was changed to requiring show reals on what USED to be modified values for the skill for required skill.

THIS was NOT a good change.

 

[jcesare]

Good point. With so many things screwed up I forgot that I can't make savage paint anymore unless I throw 12 more points into a worthless skill like cooking. I guess the devs thought that magic skill items would fill the gap. Unfortunately there are no +12 cooking rings or bracelets.
All the more reasonto increase the cap.

 

[mutau]

I personally love 8x8 and think that it is a great way to work on a skill. I think that it is a great way for all players (young and vet) to gain in their skill.
As for the difficulty-based skill, I feel that it would be a great help (for those working on the skill for the first time) if they had some help towards what they should work with to help further their gains. How many times have I seen someone at Brit Bank or the northern smithy shop asking for what they should be working on to get them to that next level.
Decoupling stat gain from skill gain -- bad, bad idea. hehehe

 

[Burl]

<blockquote><hr>

Burl, you have said the game should not be too easy; it should be work to be valued.

<hr></blockquote>

Let me clarify, it *is* work that is valued, and there's no 'should be' about it. It's not some design aspect that can be changed in any way. All of the 'fun' things in this game have next to no value. There's a very good reason why valorite ingots are 100 gp per ingot, because people hate to mine!

Also, I want to say that I support any game system where work=reward. The only way around that is to make things random, like skill gain, and randomness is frustrating and unfair, unless it is used only where one might expect randomness.

 

[Cymeraen]

I have to agree, a 75 skill, an 85, or a 90 should enable you to travel the lands without jumping at the sight of every spawn you come across.

The lower your skill, the greater your caution, no doubt, but you should not need to GM skills in order to play at a competitive and fun level.

 

[Cymeraen]

Liena is right about stat mods, I used to be able to light a fire with any character after a few attempts, roll out the blankie and log. Now I need ot devote skills to that if I want to insta log anyplace other than in town.

Most skills should have a basic stat modifier, so that even a novice could succeed some of the time: Hiding, Item ID, Arms Lore, Fishing, Cooking, Tailoring, Mining, LJ, Resist Spells... these are some skills that it seems a modicum of str, int, and/or dex (or luck in the case of Resist /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif ) should give a character with no real training at least a modest chance (10-20 skill at 0 real) of accomplishing rudimentary tasks. Because of the difficulty scaling, even a 20 skill is practically worthless for most skills except to perform a few basic tasks, like cook up some fish or light a camp fire. By removing stat modifiers, all the minor tasks that we were able to perform before are now out of many of our grasps.

With the further addition of skills and the increased interdependance of skills, the need for more skill points is greater now than ever before, but yet we find ourselves with fewer 'modified' points to distribute. This needs to be corrected. Either give us 300 real points to compensate (not prefered) or give us back stat modifiers, and while you are at it, increase the number of skills that benefit from them.

 

[Lord_Shadow]

We for some of us it's too late to save magic resist, we've droped it. OSI made some heavy changes with AOS, changes that destroyed some peoples characters. In my case I had GM resist, but i was dieing everywhere ( i meen come on getting zapped by a reaper lol ) and I had to make a really tough desision just to be able to somewhat get out and still play my main character, and a 4+ year old character at that. I had worked long and hard to GM resist. Just so that I could go and take on the tougher aspects of game play, and it was a real pain getting there! I remember how great it was to finally see that last .1 in resist hit and go WHOO HOO!! and for anyone that has gmed resist without some sort of speed macroing but by just regular game play I'm sure they'll agree you realy felt like you had accomplished something.

Then first day of AOS lol i run outside to clean up my yard of a pesky reaper and poof! i'm dead lol! I thought this is just great no more hunting at the temple on fire island lol and totally forget the new dungeon doom lol from what i hear it's not for warriors anyway

 

[Lord_Shadow]

Well for some of us it's too late to save magic resist, we've droped it. OSI made some heavy changes with AOS, changes that destroyed some peoples characters. In my case I had GM resist, but i was dieing everywhere ( i meen come on getting zapped by a reaper lol ) and I had to make a really tough desision just to be able to somewhat get out and still play my main character, and a 4+ year old character at that. I had worked long and hard to GM resist. Just so that I could go and take on the tougher aspects of game play, and it was a real pain getting there! I remember how great it was to finally see that last .1 in resist hit and go WHOO HOO!! and for anyone that has gmed resist without some sort of speed macroing but by just regular game play I'm sure they'll agree you realy felt like you had accomplished something.

Then first day of AOS lol i run outside to clean up my yard of a pesky reaper and poof! i'm dead lol! I thought this is just great no more hunting at the temple on fire island lol and totally forget the new dungeon doom lol from what i hear it's not for warriors anyway

 

[Parfox]

- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?
With as many boats on the water, unattended macro'n I think is decreasing, as well as the server line stoppers... I have raised many skills in this manner and have watched the screen pretty much most all the time, trips to the resting rooms and to grab a quick bite are pretty much the unattended times, which I don't consider those to be unattended, considering the time to log off and back on...
- How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?
My humble opinion mind ya... 2-6 months depending on the skill, and yes should be big differences between skills... Magic resist (sore spot from pub17) should take a year as it pretty much does now, without using other methods to raise... I battled Reapers to get where I am now and been working on and off with it for 2 years, and it's rewards should be highfor that skill... Crafting should be fairly fast into the 70's, so new players can make money to support their warriors and magi when it's time to start them... Magery and most fighting skills should go fast into the 70's... maybe a month to get into the 70's... Reason behind this... PUNKS... our hunting spots are full of punks...ninja looters and karma thieves... no time to get there means less devotion, dedication and respect... a month of playing will help with respect I think... Taming is a skill I've worked on for a year and a half... I like it tough, but bonuses should be given for going after the high level tames... to many BULL Tamer GM's in game... When I'm taming a dragon at 95, and a mare at 96, those should give double bonuses over bulls who don't fight back, let Bulls and non fighting creatures take you to drake level... then raise the skill from there using the animals your should be taming... and allow the pets to be as they should be... a bulldog trained for fighting will 90% of the time take another bulldog down quickly... same should be in game... and stat loss, as much when the pet dies... make that the same of EVERYTHING/EVERYBODY in game... and see how many folks start showing respect and gangability (new word?)
- For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?
This would apply and would be good, save one thing... GGS... GGS has gave me skill from taming a bird in the 90's... after I rested the char a few days... message it? nah... let folks hunt thru the players guides and Stratics here for info...
- I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?
It would be nice to have your stats change just by walking around... and when a char gets closer to 7x GM... it's a bear to change stats at that time... drop a gm skill to raise a stat... would be nice if it were seperate from the skill...
Anyways... here are my thoughts on your questions, and being this far down... hope you take time to consider these thoughts... plus... I'd like to have in game voting on players... if a person gets voted a punk by a set number of different folks... 7 days (playing time not just 7 days, kinda like murder counts take 40 hours of play time to rid yourself of) travels in Fel as their reward for their punkiness (another new word?)... lol Law &amp; Order (not the TV show) in Tram is very much needed...

 

[Dobby!]

- macroing is fine as long as the person is there..afk macroing isnt..8x8 has been around for a very long time.. many people used it and removing it would only make it harder on new players but if skill gain were more predictable/sane i spose it might work

- all skills should NOT be the same..i take LOTS of pride in GMing+ the TOUGH skills.. such as taming, like said in another post its kinda risk vs reward.. or more of a time investment into reward..warriors take the least amount of time to work up and they cant really do the best mobs effectively / tamers take the most amount of time to work up and can slaughter just about anything .. but this was before aos.. now with aos i really dont see the difference here..i mean what the hell was the point to spend a year to gm+ taming if i coulda made a paladin and/or warrior and be doing the same hting and spend less than a month to train up.. point here is the time investment compared to the reward is way out of balance.

- this i think is fine.. i mean anyone could put a little effort in and read a web page for advice/tactics/info on what to do/where to gain skills/etc

- nope! not a bad idea

 

[Nystul Lysander]

I still think gains on failures should be brought back into tougher skills...

Taming for one, Yes I had a over GM tamer, but my new ones worse then ever, 78 currently

Plus, I grew up with this "People learn from their mistakes", "People learn from history"

So why shouldnt our chars (heh, yeah I know =P) not learn from their own mistakes, although I dont think it should be the same change for a gain as suceed, it should still be brought back =(

BTW, this thread is too much for me to read, so I wont be able to check responses =P

 

[Corinthius]

Well, honestly I beleive it may be a little late in the game to totally revamp the skill gain system. I remember working over a year to make my first GM smith. I remember how ticked off I was when powerhour was implimented and everyone was making GM smiths in no time at all. I think the key to continued happiness from players at this point is consistancy. Keep it the same with no real changes and players will not have anything to gripe about.........do it the same way the last guy did it.

8x8ing and macroing have been around a long time. They are boring, tedious, dull, annoying, but faster ways to gain skills. I think they should be left alone. I know that I can 8x8 magery up in a day or two, I will spend a small fortune in regs doing it, but most of all I will be wasting an entire day of game play. I figure leave it up to the player.......power game or have fun......I do it both ways as the mood strikes me. It's nice having that freedom of choice.

Stat gain is a tougher one to think about. I honestly miss it the way it was because stats are more crucial to your training that almost any other factor and there is nothing worse than having to log in every so often to get your stat points you need. I would kill the stat timer all together and just let people see-saw them as needed to quickly balance and adjust their charactors. On the outside I would just leave it as is..........like I said before, consistancy.

 

[Vidi]

As someone just returning to UO and experiencing all these changes for the first time Id like to make a few comments

1) the key is UNATTENDED MACRO PREVENTION. Attended macroing is the ONLy way to gain skill in any reasonable amount of time for some skills.

ALSO, some skills can be macroed with in game tools ( the in game macro functions ) others cannot. That should be changed. Either the game offers everyone the chance to macro without the use of UOA or it doesnt. Either is fine, but it should offer the same chances for everyone.

8x8 - DO NOT ELIMINATE THIS! DO NOT fall prey to the same mistakes other developers are making. One of the best things about UO is you can( or rather could ) get a decent character up and running without pending three months "leveling" it. DO NOT CUT OFF YOU NOSE TO SPITE YOUR FACE.

2) How long is reasonable is a subjective term. For one player two hours is reasonable for others two months for some two years.

all skill gain should NOT be the same. Skills with little to no reward should be much faster than those with great reward.

3) Information about difficulty would be helpful but it doesnt need to be IN GAME. As long as the information is released and placed on Stratics ( as youre not adding the info to the UO site ) thenj that should be enough.

4) Why? And what happened to see sawing? I used to run a newbie helper guild. Anytime we found a young we'd grab them and start training them up. See sawing was one of thebest methods to help new players get started.



A last comment:

Sometimes the OLD ways of doing things we working fine. OSI spent alot of time fixing that which was not broken. After three weeks bac in game Im noticing only one thing important has changed.

Its harder. Period. Nearly every skill I choose is gimped in some way. Monsters drop lousy loot, skill gains are difficult to get, not being able to truly affect my stats sucks tremendously, the new magic item system is cumbersome to say the least and its pretty much determined that PvP is now about gear not skill.

I stand by the statement I made two years ago:

If things continue this way, then in the name of "balance" we will all be grouped up wrestling mongbats and splitting the 10 gold after we rez a few people.

The game should be fun. Not a mind numbing frustrating pain in the butt.

Guess Ill be playing something else for the next year.

 

[Vidi]

dont ya hate double posts?

 

[o Selwyn o]

Noble Mister Tact,

I have sought to give an answer to your questions.

Q: Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

A: To remove 8x8 sounds like a good idea, but only if the Guaranteed Gain System (GGS) is turned heavily up.

Perhaps something like this:
You will with 100% certainty gain 0.1 skill points per minute of game play if what you attempt to do is difficult enough for your level of skill. The skill you gain in will at random be one of the skills you are using during the one-minute of game play. If you only use one skill during that minute you will gain in that skill.
This means, that it will take 1000 minutes (16,66 hours) of game play to raise any skill from 0 to 100 and 7000 minutes (116, 66 hours i.e. around 5 days and nights of non-stop game play) to build a 7xGM character. This would allow the hardcore power players to build 7xGM characters with a nice speed, while it would also allow more casual players or role-players to build powerful characters within a reasonable timeframe.


Q: How much should I care about macroing prevention?

A: It appears to me, that no system has ever been successful in preventing macroing. Furthermore the power players, who wish to build characters fast, are also a legitimate part of the UO community. Thus, since you ask me of my opinion, I think it would be better to consider how to make room for the power player segment of the community in the skill gain code, rather than pondering ways of obstructing their way of playing the game. Why not incorporate them instead of trying to exclude them?

Q: How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill?

A: Following my suggestion above I think around 17 hours of non-stop game play is reasonable for moving a skill from 0 to 100.


Q: Should all skills be the same?

A: In terms of game mechanics, yes. Yet, to do something, which is difficult enough for your level of skill will certainly differ in difficulty from skill to skill. I mean, it is more difficult and dangerous to try to tame dragons or provoke Cyclops, than it is to mine ore.

Q: For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

A: As far as I see, it would be nice if you were told if what you did was too easy for to you gain any skill doing it.

Q: I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

A: I think it is a good idea to make the stat gains more consistent, but how about connecting them to a turned up GGS system, so that when you gained there you automatically gain a stat point, up to your daily limit.

Sincerely,
Selwyn

 

[krims0n]

Can't believe you even have to ask about getting rid of 8x8...

8x8 Ruined UO skill gain, and the economy in alot of cases. People macroed this extremely predictable skill gain system and became multi-GM overnight.

Yeah lets keep it in the game.

 

[Ciengarde]

I know I may get slamed for this but, I think it would not be a bad vet reward maybe or just something that happens when a account turns 6 years that it gets the TC set code as a option.
The Six year vet would not have to use it but would be available to him/her if they wanted too.
I realise that building skills is a big part of the game but after six years to be honest I been there done that. Also making it optional for the Six year Vet does not mean they have to use it.

The only real problem I see with this idea is a new player who has not been there done that yet may purchase a 6 year old account.
Not sure how you could prevent that but there maybe some ways.

 

[Balder_DK]

how about this one MrTact

remove that piece of to GGS..
and put Powerhour back in where it belong.
KTHXBYE

 

[The Real Maxim]

The 8x8 was originally made to prevent macroing. You guys failed miserably at that. Every time you change anything you open up a can of worms with new bugs and exploits. Let's leave the system the way it is so you don't break it. There has been macroing since the game started. It has been a problem only to those with completed characters.

Hell I can spend $29.95 and skip the macroing all together with an advanced character.

There are enough real problems in the game to fix. If you want to remove 8x8 or something else do it a couple years from now when you have more important bugs worked out.

If you want to work on something, figure out a way for my tamer to get gains. I can't 8x8 that and all I get is the GGS gain. You guys made it so I can't tame from a ledge or anything now. Fix that, then I can get gains. That was a stupid idea. The line of sight taming is dumb. It should never have been changed. With a dialup connection you can't tame anything dangerous now.

 

[Guest]

Leave 8x8 alone... All you people who say you don’t like it.. How much you want to bet your all gm'ed out. And you benefited from 8x8. And now you don’t want "newbies" gaining too quick.... What do you care if people can use 8x8 to make characters they can actually enjoy in this game. Does it really hurt you people if others can actually have viable characters in the world, so they can play decently too... I have gmed my characters... And I have done it both the 8x8 and the "Hard, Rewarding way"... I do not care if others are also GM's in 3 or 4 days. So they can play the game. Last time I checked 8x8 takes the time to sit there and 8x8... if they want to sit there for hours on hours for 3 to 4 days. Then aren’t they playing the game the way they want to play it... THIS IS JUST A GAME... stop trying to ruin it and make it harder for others who are new to it just because you feel that now 8x8 is to easy to gain with. I hate to tell you... if they take away 8x8 than that means not just on the water... but also on the land and that means that any movement based skills will me affected. So tell me was the hard way to gain magery moving around from place to place and casting the spells. Isn’t that the same thing as moving around 8x8 on the water to gain in magery? The only reason why 8x8 works on the water is because there is nothing to get in your way while you sail on certain lines. LEAVE IT ALONE.

About the stat gains, put them back to the way it was... You get stats for doing the associated skills... Now to gain any stats, all you have to do is log on every 15 to 20 mins and do arms lore... How silly is that. It makes more sense to gain by proper skill usage. And if you really need to limit the amount of gains (I don’t see why. This just goes back to the point of if they play and gain the whole time they are playing. Aren’t they still putting in the time to play and isn’t that what a game is about?) Than make the limit more reasonable. 10 pts a day really just servers to frustrate new players who cant get viable characters going. (GOD FORBID that newbies get viable characters going in a short period of time...That is just not fitting.)...

Macro preventing... yes if your doing macros while away from your computer. Then yes it should be stopped because you’re not playing the game... If your there the whole time IE playing the game... who cares if your macroing... I know I did for carpentry...

Yes yes. All you people getting your hackles up because you’re saying that is not playing. But let me tell you this, my wrists feel great without carpel's tunnel thank you. The amount of clicking you have to do in the 90's and up alone would put me in the doctors office. I am sorry if I am not going the true route of the REAL UO PLAYER. But I really appreciate UO Assist for saving me medical bills. THANK YOU TUGSOFT.

BTW. They GGS is not so Guaranteed


Mor.

 

[Guest]

Accomplished players = more fun for all.

A few years back one of my neighbors bought some Belgian block brick from a
home improvement center along with all of the sand and supplies he needed to
do some lawn work. He spent many hours leveling his front patio and walkway
and laying the brick. After about two weeks when the work was done, his
patio and walk looked beautiful. We all admired it. Soon everyone in the
neighborhood wanted brick walkways, patios, walls and driveways. Some of us
bought brick and spent days and weeks laying it. Some of us called
landscapers and had it done professionally in a few days. Still more of us
haven't done it yet but are interested in getting the brick and doing it
ourselves or having it done by someone else when time and money allow.
Meanwhile, more than three quarters of the neighborhood has beautifully
landscaped lawns and patios. And guess what? Nobody is hurt by it. In
fact, the neighborhood is truly lovely to drive through. Wow!! Imagine
that!! Everybody has this gorgeous end result and Everybody appreciates it
instead of being jealous that one neighbor slaved over his own work while
another payed a pro. Go figure! Not everyone has the time, money and
resources to do everything they want to do the hard way, folks. Mind your
own garden and learn to appreciate the beauty of other people's gardens no
matter how they choose to tend theirs. If you don't like 8x8 - simply don't
use it.

And another thing, I have no idea how much my neighbors earn or have in
their savings or how they got it. I wouldn't CARE if I did know - AND if
they had a fortune and got it really easy and were willing to let me in on
their method, I'd be full of joy and love for them and out making millions
myself, not griping about the work ethic in a fantasy game. If every player
on every shard were a 7 time GM with 10 million gold in their bank account,
how on Earth would that take away from my enjoyment of the game? So what if
some character in a video game gets (dare i breathe the astronomical
figure!!!) seven items from something you find easy to kill. How does that
hurt you? or anyone else? If you have too many Easter eggs from vorpal
bunnies or too much treasure then HEY!! news alert!! "YOU CAN STOP HUNTING
THEM ANY TIME!!" But why should you care if someone else likes to hunt them
and gets easter eggs. MYOB.

And you want to know what the most incredibly stupid thing in the game is?
Power Scrolls. That's so airheaded, it's like - dude on a scale of 1-100 I
have like a 110. Why make a scale?

And what does fair have to do with gameplay? Is it fair that one player
has 20 free hours a week to play but another works longer hours and so can
only play 4. It's not a real fair world out there in case you haven't
noticed. What about making training handicaps for people who don't have as
much time to play. If you can demonstrate that you only have 2 hours a week
to play then you get a free 2 power hours each week. HEY that sounds fair
to me! How about people who are just not as smart as others. It doesn't
sound fair to me that stupid people should have to figure out hard stuff
when smart people just get it. How about making a whole special shard for
people who can prove they are total idiots, and on that shard everywhere you
hover the mouse you will get special instructions on whatever is
highlighted. Hey! I know, it's not fair that kids have to play against
adults. Consider that. How about separating the shards into over 18 year
old shards and kids shards; or better yet making certain facets accessible
only to people over 18. No kids in Ilshnear or Fel. Wait a minute! Should
inner city kids have to play with rural kids? that doesn't sound fair. They
have different outlooks on life! Why don't we just be total bigots in the
spirit of being fair and say only people of the same age group, same ethnic
background, same financial background, same place in the birth order of
their family, same marital status and same favorite color can play together.
That way they are all likely to have the same view on whether or not vorpal
bunnies should have 7 items.

Wait I have solved the problem completely. Make different shards for
people who want a lot of treasure on vorpal bunnies and those who don't.
And different shards for people who want 8x8 and those who don't. That's
it! Kudo's to me! Next I need to work on the meaning of life and world
peace, give me a week on an 8x8 shard or two on a non 8x8 okay guys?

Finally about macro usage. I can only assume the objection to the use of
macros is in reference to using them for training. If that is the case then
get over it. Why should you care if people are GMs? Your being pickled
about it isn't going to stop them from GMing so what do you care if it takes
them an hour or a year. Macros, however are far more useful to the majority
of us, in my opinion, in setting up things like hot keys for disarming,
drinking potions and re-arming, or sparing the wrist a hundred clicks when
your Alchemist who is already a GM needs to make a keg of potions. In
fact, as it so happens, most of my frequently used characters GM'ed before I
got UO Assist, but I still find it to be thoroughly useful every time I
play - especially now that I have different suits of clothes for each
activity my characters do. The undress and dress functions are great in
that capacity as is the remove ring/earrings key. All of these features are
actually mini-macros. I can't understand why anyone would object to these.
That is just petty.

 

[KyraMarie]

BTW how long is this vacation? Is he back? Has he said something about the posts?

 

[Goldenblack]

I see what you're saying, about work being valued. I'm just of the opinion that every aspect of a well-done and admirable game should be fun. There should be no tedious. There should only be challenging (but doable).

Yes tedium adds a certain aspect to the economy, but...honestly, I'd rather do tedium in RL, and get rewards for it here in RL, instead of paying for the privelage in a so-called "game." But that's just me.

-Goldenblack

 

[coldstonevnv]

" How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it? "

If you're saying you're going to make gaining skills easier, to the point where you would gain the same amount of skill points by playing the game normally, like any newbie would, as you would by running around in circles or sailing in a straight line 24 hours/uoday working a skill, then yes you should take out the option of running around in circles and sailing in a straight line. then again, maybe if you made gaining skills less "INSANE" (as u put it) maybe no one would bother with 8x8. ..................Suddenly i realize why raising tailoring by standing still at my bank box isn't working.................

" How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same? "

This is something you have to decide. the longer it takes, the sooner someone might give up and quit uo. I'd suggest taking a look at other mmorpgs and seeing how long they take to get a top of the line char. Apparently some recent ones have either sped this up a LOT, or sped up the act of changing skills. i personally cant wait for this skill gem thing to come out. The roleplaying possibilities makes me drool.

Not all skills should be the same, wait no, all skills should be the same... ok what i mean is, the more difficult to raise skills should be sped up to match the easier to raise skills. Gaining points in things like, healing, resisting spells, taming, these are skills that take 100 times longer than most to raise, simply because you dont use them as often as the others, im guessing. skills like this should be sped up i think.

"For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?"

ehhhh... i dont wanna be told im an idiot every time i tame a horse. If u wanna help people know what to do and when, put it on your webpage. or put up an ad for stratics.

"I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea? "

well, so long as it gives u the right stats for the skills you're using the most, i guess. if it isn't broken, don't fix it.

coldstone cutter, vnv, great lakes
www.geocities.com/vnvguild

ps i like the idea of being able to get items off monsters that are better than what someone could craft. i also like the idea of insurance, tho it is way too expensive, glad to hear you're gonna lower this.

 

[Newman]

This is just a little idea that I had, and many may not like it, but I would (and a few others out there as well). This is a bit off topic, but it is still somewhat on topic.

Create a shard where you get say three chars per shard. No powerscrolls, no stat scrolls, just use the same bosses that are in dungeons now to give out some of the more uber weapons, but still have those available on difficult monsters as well. Upon creating the character, rather than only selecting the three starting skills, you choose 7. Those 7 are auto GMed. The difference between this and TC, is this is a permanent shard with housing and the works, and you cannot change skills mid-battle.

Whats the use you say? Its great for 1) powergamers and 2) players who dont have the time/desire to build the skills of the characters.

There are many out there that say "Jeeze, you just want the game handed to you huh?". No. I want to be able to play the game, just like everyone else. But for me, and MANY others out there, the fun is not in building the characters (I did that for over 5 years already, it gets awfully repetative) but PLAYING the characters. Sure, you say go play and your skills will go up. But you cant play the way you WANT to play when your not at an appropriate level. I know, I sound like a baby saying "ME ME ME" but truthfully, what would it hurt if you had ONE shard or two depending on demand for play styles like mine?

"What about reds? They will just kill, and remake their character!"
Remember P-16 when they came up with "One red - All Red". Sounds like a good spot to put this in. =)

Ok, im tired and dont have time to sit here and type up a full proposal with pros and cons and all that right now. This is just a "get it out" thing. Perhaps I will post in a main forum with a detailed post. Until then, I just say good night. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/wink.gif

 

[Burl]

<blockquote><hr>

Yes tedium adds a certain aspect to the economy, but...honestly, I'd rather do tedium in RL, and get rewards for it here in RL, instead of paying for the privelage in a so-called "game." But that's just me.

<hr></blockquote>

I hope you realize you're asking the impossible. The whole point of any game is to overcome obstacles that are deliberately thrown in front of you. I suppose it is the most fun when those obstacles present an interesing and new challenge, but every game gets old after a few times. You can't create a skill gain system that is 'continually' fun. Maybe you could get rid of skill gain, and just allow players to play a fully developed character, but then you eliminate the whole aspect of character development. How fun is it to go around and kill monsters that are easy to kill? or to make things that anyone can make?

I would say that the best skill gain system should be tedious enough to make people complain, but not quit. You think you don't like tedium, but here you are! How long would you play this game if you could hop into any type of character you wanted? I bet alot less long than you think.

 

[JohnD1]

&gt; How much should I care about macroing prevention?

Not at all. If someone is going to macro attended, so be it. Let them macro.

&gt; Should I eliminate 8x8?

No. 8x8 works fine as-is, so doesn't need to be removed.

&gt; If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even
&gt; need it?

Yes, especially for those players who don't have the time to play long hours each and every day (or even every other day).

&gt; How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill?

I'd say a few months to a year...some number in that range of time.

&gt; Should all skills be the same?

Yes.

&gt; For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a
&gt; task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

That shouldn't be necessary if common sources such as Stratics offer such a calculator free (as in, not just a feature of Stratics Plus). Otherwise, that would be nice, yes.

&gt; I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain
&gt; -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to
&gt; your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

In my opinion, yes. I believe that stat gain should be linked to skill gain. As it is right now feels close enough to leave alone.

 

[KyraMarie]

I agree with you I want to PLAY not to build skills

 

[Guest]

Yes! Bring us back the old days and kick 8x8 /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

I'd really like if you'll get the old gain-system back!

Well, a Grandmaster mage was done at the old times of UO in ... 7-8 months. That gave importance on these ones who haven't had GM or high skills. A group of (carefully and FALSELY said) noobs are sometimes better than one 7xGM. If it would take such a long time to GM a skill, and no chance of powergaming anywhere, would bring the people together again. To fight in Dungeons and to do other things together. The result of that would be that the community would be stronger again (what I wouldn't say it is at the moment!!!). In fact, although I can't explain it, the RP part of this game would come back again if it would be very difficult to gain in the skills- I'd guess /php-bin/shared/images/icons/wink.gif

Decoupling stat gains completly from Skill gains, sure, why not. In RL matter, I become muscles when I practice in fitness-studios, but I don't think I'd practice a skill there (if I could declare it so /php-bin/shared/images/icons/wink.gif )

 

[imported_Ghost_Knight]

I left the game soon after T2A and was never able to get to gm on my mage. I came back in November and had a 6x elder archer mage in 6 weeks. I think archery took the last two weeks and I was already 5x elder in a month. I would say it is definitely way too easy now. Really the only thing limiting everyone from being a legendary mage is gold.

 

[Fox News]

It doesn't even really matter anymore. The only reason I could see for changing the way skill is gained is if you add new skills, or change the current ones bigtime.