doesn't that constitute luring though in trammel?
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Should they change the Blackthorn dungeon so hidden tamers can't get drops?
Doesn't matter if there using BOS or they insure there items, I guess if your trying to get them killed that's ok but they will log on with all there artifacts
Don't u know..2 wrongs make a right, atleast if it's for the greater good. Those scoundrels afk macro for good. The heroes then loot the countless bounty..WIN/WIN for the one's who are soooo utterly disturbed at the fact anyone could have the audacity to AFK and undercut their prices >:|
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If one cannot see the player, how could he possibly be afk macroing? They can't possibly see you to interact due to your slick herding maneuvering, or maybe they just don't care to grace you with those presence. Either way..go play the game the way you desire. If you choose to fill your hours with play trolling afk macroers so be it..just make sure you title yourself within your guild as the UO Police..a title that seems to bear so much importance to you and so many other forum warriors.If one can't see a player there, how can it be luring?
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Your first sentence is a non sequitur. Nobody is equating merely staying hidden with afk macroing. These people, as others have posted, are clearly doing that. If the people are actively playing, then fine, let them page. During city invasions, there was one person who continually dragged spawn over and pulled boxes, finally getting a little bit of a timeout.
This is not a matter of "two wrongs." There's just one wrong, afk macroing, and someone doing that is just asking for lots of bad things to happen.
And for the record, I haven't been doing "much" of what you term policing.
You just condoned the act of using a stealth herder to lure..it is in fact "just as wrong" but ok..since the MODs have yet to install my e-cookies as an option..
*Gives Zog an E-Cookie for being such an impeccable citizen of Sosaria*
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*Gives Zog an E-Cookie for being such an impeccable citizen of Sosaria*
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah to bad the mods haven't deleted post about people luring or people revealing characters to only get them killed. Guess they have there own agenda
In fact, what I said neither condones nor opposes "luring." Luring counts only against attended character. If someone is macroing unattended, and something just happens to reveal the character, then that's just too bad for him, isn't it? The person shouldn't have been doing it in the first place.
You can keep your cookie. I already have a lifetime supply from Mum.
T
Tazar
Guest
I haven't seen any post reports... Do you really think I have time to sit here all day and read each and every post that is made? The post report system is there for a reason...
Just FYI, about two-three patchs ago they put in a lowered chance of drops if you are hiding and if you are more then so many tiles away. So the same 2-3 drops a hider-tamer would get in 3 hours, I would get 20-25 on my sampire. So anyone using a hider-tamer to farm arties is a idiot in my opinion. Read up on the facts before making post. TY have a nice day!
This is news to me. Where is this on UO.com or from a developer, or is this just your gut feeling?
You have to realize that afk scripters/harvesters aren't worried about drop rate for things like Minax artifacts that command the prices they do. It's all the same to them if they get one per hour or one per three hours. A few drops while they're away from the computer are a few drops they wouldn't have gotten at all.
No! As I wrote about a "stealth herder" ... that would in fact "constitute HERDING through in Trammel" !
Are you talking about the change that says you get less credit for certain drops if you are hidden when the monster you are hiding dies and no credit at all if you are more than 16 tiles away when it dies?
If yes, that change was put in during October 2007 and applied to the then "new" drops in the anti-virtue dungeons added with Publish 47 in late September 2007 (i.e., Katrina's Crook, Jaana's Staff, Dragon's End, Sentinel's Guard, Lord Blackthorn's Exemplar, pieces from the Virtue Armor set, the Ankh Pendant, the UO logo "luck" sculpture, and the Map of Britannia).
http://uo.stratics.com/uoherald/news/news.php?newsid=239
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Hiding and stealth are legitimate skills. In fact, generally 150-220 points are devoted to them. If the dev's change anything that means those using their LEGITIMATE skills are penalized in ANY way, I will close all my accounts and wash my hands of this game.
I am tired of having things penalized due to the .1 % of players who cheat, when EA does absolutely NOTHING in the way of policing, provides very little in the way of GM support, provides nothing to stop the automated scirpting that we all see day in and day out used by miners, lumberjacks etc etc, refuses to patch the game on a daily basis to stop the scripts operating in the 2d client, which has always been known as a way to stop them until a 'fix' goes in for the patch. If there are people breaking the tos by AFK farming then EA can police it. If not then bugger off and leave the way people who are playing their legitimate skills within the rules alone.
I am totally sick of the devs reading this forum and having a knee jerk reaction to so called problems that only exist in the minds of some people. So many times things are nerfed that need not be due to total rubbish 'claimed' on this forum.
Sick of people whining about this whole NON issue. You want to farm spawn in any of these locations go do it, if other people are there there is no rule that says you cant farm in the same spot. If you think someone is afk farming then send in a report and be done with it. STOP all this total BS about stopping people from using their legitimate skills, just because you don't like the way they can do something you can't.
I am tired of having things penalized due to the .1 % of players who cheat, when EA does absolutely NOTHING in the way of policing, provides very little in the way of GM support, provides nothing to stop the automated scirpting that we all see day in and day out used by miners, lumberjacks etc etc, refuses to patch the game on a daily basis to stop the scripts operating in the 2d client, which has always been known as a way to stop them until a 'fix' goes in for the patch. If there are people breaking the tos by AFK farming then EA can police it. If not then bugger off and leave the way people who are playing their legitimate skills within the rules alone.
I am totally sick of the devs reading this forum and having a knee jerk reaction to so called problems that only exist in the minds of some people. So many times things are nerfed that need not be due to total rubbish 'claimed' on this forum.
Sick of people whining about this whole NON issue. You want to farm spawn in any of these locations go do it, if other people are there there is no rule that says you cant farm in the same spot. If you think someone is afk farming then send in a report and be done with it. STOP all this total BS about stopping people from using their legitimate skills, just because you don't like the way they can do something you can't.
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sheesh use the 'other' option to report. Time (ie for past 3 hours), shard, Location, how long pet has been unattended and leave it up to the GM's to sort out. If they cant' be bothered why should you be?
What amazes me is hide, stealth, taming has been in the game for YEARS. Nothing has changed, certainly not in at least the past 10 yrs so why all of a sudden is this type of gameplay all of a sudden a problem. I have had a stealth tamer for as long as I have been playing, now all of a sudden people seem to have their knicker's in a twist about it.
You can have just as much a problem with sampires sitting in one spot with loot scripts running for hour upon hour upon hour, remember TOT's how many of these were around, and archers, tamers, sampires killing orcs in the tokuno wasteland, or other templates in the yamotsu mines killing earth eles, not moving for hours at a time etc etc I could go on. Any template has tricks and ways to play that beat other templates at some point. It doesn't mean they are cheating, just utiliizing the strength of their particular templates.
Really we should stop any sampire, archer, warrior, tamer getting any kinda drop into their backpacks because we know they are ALL cheating and AFK if they haven't moved a tile in an hour and they don't want to speak to us. And if a mage/mystic casts a summon and then invises we should stop that too, as they can't be hit by the mobs and it isn't fair that they can invis and get drops, sheesh *sarcasm* .. can't believe that has even been suggested in this thread that those who invis shouldn't get drops. Get a grip people!
In the four hours I took my tamer in to test, she got 2 martis and even tho she has 100 hide she was actually revealed twice by the red mages, so it is hardly foolproof.
I would hazard a guess that 90% of the so called afk cheating tamers with pets are actually there. You hear reports all the time how they get lured on as people just 'assume' in the mass hysteria that is on these boards that if you can't see em they must be cheating. As I was watching people come and go, not one person made an effort to 'ask' if I was there yet it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they went away grumbling about cheating hidden tamers. As has been pointed out, no one owns a spawn spot, you want to fight there, go in, say 'hi mind if I join you' if no response just say 'thank you' and go ahead and fight and do what you were gonna do anyways. You may be surprised when most of the time you actually get an answer.
I actually have 4 tamers with hide/stealth on ALL OF THEM. 3 on my each of my accounts on Oceania, and 1 on Atlantic. Why? Because in my view that is the most efficient and best way to play tamers, especially since Greater Dragons came in and you are forced to be on foot all the time. I also don't cheat and suspect that 99% of tamers don't cheat either.
I also have 3 mystic spellweaving mages also with hide/stealth 2 on Oce, one on Atlantic, and 1 hide/steathing archer. And of course I have two thief chars also both with Hide/stealth again, 1 on Oce, 1 on Atlantic. I have come to love the playstyle I have with my chars and have devoted a lot of skill points to those preferred templates, if the devs screw up hide/stealth due to the hysteria in this thread it will definitely be the last straw for me.
Guess what I meant is that once engaged you can invis but its just enough to break aggro, and your visible again. Shouldn`t be able to stand there with impunity and watch your pet do all the work while someone texts or eats breakfast or whatever.
Good grief was it that long ago those arties got added?
Yes you should be able to if you have invested 100 points on your template for the hide skill (especially as there are NO skill buffs for hide so it is PURE skill, no jewels, skill items) and more often than not another 120 skill into stealth. That is what it is for. If you want to 'loot' a body which 99% of tamers do when fighting they become visible, same as they become visible when they vet or heal their pets. If your a mage invis is something you have also invested skill into, if you choose to invis and stay invised while your summons kills stuff then so be it, you have invested the points to be able to do it.
It is no worse than a sampire putting 100 points to necro and using vamp embrace to sit and hit skeletons or hell hounds in the dungeon with impunity as they life leech each hit while texting or eating breakfast or whatever, nor the archer one shot killing the red mages who I see every day on my shard while texting or eating breakfast or whatever. I see the archer sitting there for hour upon hour not moving. Are they there? Don't know and personally I don't care. If they are there, well good on em for suffering the total boredom, if they are not there then it is up to them if they wanna risk their account for the sake of a few martis. I did see one of these 'archers' get tagged and killed by the balron and watched as their body decayed so odds are they weren't there or perhaps they just fell asleep in front of their computer. I guess we should stop these types of chars from auto attacking, they should have to phyically click on the bar of each target.... yes ?... and make it that way for sampires and warriors too. My mage can't auto target and attack so why should those classes be able to?
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I don't know what the fuss is about. When I am there with my pet, a dexxer comes in, stands in the middle of the room and auto kills 90% of the mages. I am there now, posting and surfing on one half of my screen while my pet kills mages. Since this thing has began ive collected a whopping 25 artifacts. And now I should have to say all kill and constantly invis myself to get an artie an hour if lucky??
Just walk in and kill the mages if the tamers bother you.
Just walk in and kill the mages if the tamers bother you.
Good ole Tram.
I actually do not really care that much about the AFK campers in Blackthorns as this activity (in different areas) has been going on for year..but now the AFK'rs have started placing bagballs at the entrance to block anyone else for entering.. That is a problem... Please make it that any item dropped near a zone in decays instantly or something.
Thanks
BG
Thanks
BG
with the current decay time set into overdrive it wont take too long for the bagballs to decay.
Captn Norrington
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Easiest way to remove those is to enter the dungeon while dead, get resurrected, then you can move them. It's annoying to have to do it every day, but they usually don't replace them for 8 hours or so.
Being on Origin it has been a long time "farm" shard and BOTs have been all over for years. In the past I have never been directly impacted except for when killing those miners for the golden shovel/pick axe was the thing to do (I never got one) and the BOT farmers were all over it. Even now in Blackthorn the mages and hellhounds are camped 95% by AFKrs and since I normally kill the Balron I didn't really care. But now they have decided to block off the dungeon with a Bagball at the entrance.. and even if you have an alt logged off in there as soon as you get up the stairs high enough to grab the Bagball you zone out.
BG
One of the main reasons I have quit UO. Having reported the multiboxing dude in Oceania a gazillion times, knowing that Mesanna has direct knowledge of it and still did NOTHING about it, even with screen shots showing the person with their 30+ multis in there, sent to Mesanna and Kyronix (with names), same posted on here, although Petra decided to remove the pic within a few hours of it being posted (although names were blocked out and pic was within the roc), Mesanna actually emailed me for the 'shard' the dude was on even tho it was clear on the post on here and not the first time I had reported it, even then, day after day, week after week the dude was still there doing the same thing. I had enough. Sold my house on Atlantic and gave away one of my castles on Oceania, closed both those accounts down. Am still in the process of closing out my other two. If it wasn't for the fact that two of my friends quit and I have their 'stuff' mixed on my accounts I wouldn't be bothered even packing it up, however, I said I would caretake their stuff and will do so hence why those accounts are still open and I can't just let the joints go idoc. Once they are packed up that will be it, problem I am having is even getting the motivation to log in and actually pack them up.
When the devs don't give a crap about people cheating, when it is so obvious and so damn blatant yet continues day after day, week after week, then it is time to finally go. OK you can assume the script miners and lumberjacks have to be 'caught in the act' and so may not be there when they look, this dude was there nearly all day every day, even when posted on here people could go and have a look which they did. Others had mentioned the dude still being there days and weeks after I had made a post on it. When it was ea/mythic they could hide behind the corporate ethos, now it is broadsword and they have direct 'power' to control these types of things it doesn't cut it anymore that they just ignore it.
Wasn't the only reason I have quit, but up there with my top 5 reasons.
When the devs don't give a crap about people cheating, when it is so obvious and so damn blatant yet continues day after day, week after week, then it is time to finally go. OK you can assume the script miners and lumberjacks have to be 'caught in the act' and so may not be there when they look, this dude was there nearly all day every day, even when posted on here people could go and have a look which they did. Others had mentioned the dude still being there days and weeks after I had made a post on it. When it was ea/mythic they could hide behind the corporate ethos, now it is broadsword and they have direct 'power' to control these types of things it doesn't cut it anymore that they just ignore it.
Wasn't the only reason I have quit, but up there with my top 5 reasons.
As long as the RMT sites are allowed to stay up, cheating, scripting, AFKing and duping will go on and on and on...
When you see the RMT sites sell the Blackthorn artifacts it kinda tells you who operates the Oceania multiboxer.
When you see the RMT sites sell the Blackthorn artifacts it kinda tells you who operates the Oceania multiboxer.
Stop that.
That's so not the way to fix it, the way to fix it is simply to ban, not to make it so legitimate players have to wait longer between kills.
Another way to stop the AFKing/scripting in Blackthorn's is to tank the artifact market by lowering the turn in amounts. They exist because most people would rather buy the gear then spend weeks gathering it themselves.
But then I find the grind mechanic there to be over the top.
But then I find the grind mechanic there to be over the top.
Get a dungeon area drop and get teleported up to the courtyard. The drop has a fast timer that can be washed off in one of four birdbaths. Just need to try each one till timer is removed. The city pod areas free from teleport but drops still have timer. Center area has a few baths.
Just out of curiosity, did you also find Treasures of Tokuno to be grindy? Trying to minimize the grindy-feel is always a goal, certainly a challenge when trying to maximize replay ability.But then I find the grind mechanic there to be over the top.
We don't really set the spawn rate, we actually set a minimum and maximum for population values and the server does it's best to keep up dependent on load.
Also, as an aside since it's been brought up in a thread, If you feel someone is breaking the ToS with regard to Blackthorns, feel free to page a GM. Of course, the results of any action the GMs take, as well as any future anti-afk changes we make we can't comment on.
If it was any longer I'd be spending more time waiting than killing.
Yes, ToT is grindy as well but maybe not as bad as Blackthorns given you only need 10 ToT to get the high end gear.
Here are some other things to fix the 'grind' :
1 - Library collections - rethink the gold donation amounts to 5 gp per point. Right now its hugely out of whack such that its better to pay a scripter for mace and shield because you can turn in 3m worth of shields bought at an NPC vs paying 12m gold. Cut the point buying by 1/3 (its 15 to 1 now) and the glasses cost 4m.
2 - Library collections pt 2 - Give us some real point value stuff to turn in. Like 100k points for a doom artifact or other things like that. Then I just have to turn in 8 of them to get mace and shields - not 50k bucklers. You reduced the point value for bucklers trying to 'cut down' on scripters but it actually made the problem such that ONLY scripters do it. The collections are an utter grind. They were supposed to be people randomly 'collecting' things for points and rewards but instead they are massive low point item grinds.
3 - Ore mining and wood chopping : You changed all the locations to randomly respawn. Thats great and it does cut down on scripters 'camping' various spots but you didn't really up the CHANCES of finding rarer woods and ore. Back when you walked 2 days looking for a frostwood tree to mark - it was ok because once marked you always had frostwood. Well now you walk 2 days, find said tree - and its 70 or 100 frostwood before it changes over. Leave the random respawn but make the high end trees easier to find. If frostwood is 1/1000 trees make it 1/100. I should be able to find 1 tree in 1 hour of play. Today I'm lucky if I find a single frost/blood/heartwood in an hour.
4 - Precious Gem mining - These are way way way too rare. It takes 10 of them to make special jewelry. Do you have any idea how long it takes to mine up 10 ecru or whatever? It would probably take 2 days of 24x7 script mining to get 10 of each gem. Then I can make ONE special ring with said 10 and guess what? The odds of getting the 'special' mod on it the ring is like 1/10. So I'd need to script mine for like 2-3 weeks nonstop to gen enough to make a few rings with the 5% SSI or whatever. Guess what? This is only a scripters game. I've bought these from known scripters because honestly there is no way in heck I'd be able to amass enough on my own mining to do any serious crafting with them. Up the spawn rate by 10x at least.
5 - Taming skill gaining - This is still a complete disaster. Give taming gains for training your pet with commands (like a chance to gain when they kill a monster). Taming creatures over and over again is a complete and utter grind. I finally got to 120 taming after 10 years of play and it was because I GGS'ed it and I used scrolls of alacrity. I would not use that character - log in - tame - get my ggs with the scroll (giving me .2 to .5) then log out quickly so the same scroll would last a couple weeks. Not playing my character for 2-3 months to get from 110 to 120 was not really what I call 'gameplay'. Taming is borked. I can GM 10 blacksmiths, 5 tailors and 2 imbuers before getting a character to 110 tame. Forget about 120.
6 - Refinements - for the love of Mike please get rid of the armor types. Make the refinements work for any armor. That would reduce the sheer number by a factor of 8-10. Its so impossible to collect any decent number to combine this system is hardly even being used. I know it was someones wet dream to make people buy more housing but instead it is more code you wrote/support that NO ONE is using. Make this tweak and it becomes moderately worth pursing.
7 - Rare Armor Collections - You know the greymist armor and such? Why do you have a suit with 4 pieces and its like a McDonalds monopoly game - 2 pieces are common and 2 are very rare. Why can't they all be the same rarity? I've been killing champs (I solo 1-2 champ spawns a day) and I haven't seen any collection piece on a champ in the past 2 months. Why are these so impossible to complete? I haven't completed a single set yet. These aren't overpowered suits. Loosen the purse strings a bit and stop it from being such a grind. I got most of mine from swoop and miasma so I have like 1/2 of every set.
8 - Navery Spawn time - Slowing this to a 15 min timer was stupid. It should nearly autospawn. Who cares if more apron's are given out? Killing monster. Waiting 15 min for next one is no ones idea of fun. Who has time for that?
I've got a dozen changes to bods to make them more useful and easier for the casual player but I've detailed those in the Dev's thread and I won't go into them again.
None of these are trying to 'dumb down' the game. I really don't want 'something for nothing' but you need to make any of these systems achievable by the casual player. Think about the person who plays a few hours a day - maybe 10 hours a week. Can they realistically get a mace and sheild glasses in that time? If not - fix the damn system. What you have basically done is made many of these system so that the power players (10+ hours a day) and the scripters are the only ones obtaining this stuff so you have a game that only has these players left. You alienated 80% of your playerbase and you are left with the die hard gamers. I mean I can log into GL at any hour of the day and find the same 10-15 people playing. They will always obtain more stuff than a casual gamer but if you make systems such that ONLY that kind of gameplay is able to realistically achieve items - the casual gamer goes away.
You have two populations - scripters and hard core gamers. The casual gamers are gone. They were 80% of your playbase. You now have 20% left. If you ever want this game to increase stop making it such that every system requires you to either cheat, buy gold to buy things or play the game like a job.
So you know where I am comming from - I've played 12 years now, I have billions in stuff since I'm a collector, a hoarder and don't waste my gold. If you make some of the changes above YES it will devalue the value of many of my items. I don't care though if it actually brings players to the game that would bring more $$, more dev resources and more things to do. I have over 300k in frostwood. I marked a bunch of runes on a dead shard and used to gather 5-7k a day. Its not fair though that a new player would take weeks just to get 1k frostwood if they are very lucky. It should still be 'rare' but not 'I have to play 10 hours a day to find some' rare.
It was an error to realize the invasion setup 1:1 as dungeon in the first place. I worked the invasion spawns week by week and got my share of items. It was HARD work. Only to see, that everybody can get the same items now by cheating.
As I said a year ago: They should have added the items as [REPLICA] to the Blackthorn dungeon with a lower durability. And - OF COURSE - far lower turn in rate (by half, for exapmle). Consequence: Everybody can get his favoured item by a reasonable amount of work and the initial event-items as well as the old ones (garbs, for example) would have kept their value.
Now: Its a mess!
As I said a year ago: They should have added the items as [REPLICA] to the Blackthorn dungeon with a lower durability. And - OF COURSE - far lower turn in rate (by half, for exapmle). Consequence: Everybody can get his favoured item by a reasonable amount of work and the initial event-items as well as the old ones (garbs, for example) would have kept their value.
Now: Its a mess!
My answer: Yes...and no.
Kill mobs over and over in the hopes of a drop. Collect the drops to turn in for bigger rewards. So ToT was definitely a grind mechanic.
BUT, people were (and still are) crazy about it. Why? Well, I can only surmise it was because many of the minor drops were useful by themselves. The turn in rewards were even better: dyes, tome, kasa, etc. The goals were "easier" to reach, which undoubtedly led more people to participate.
Blackthorn's is a long, boring, grindy slog to get the rewards most people want, thus the rampant AFKer contingent. Perhaps if GM response to their dominance wasn't complete and total apathy, more people might enjoy the spawn.
Personally, I don't enjoy the mini city areas. The drop rate is way to inconsistent and unless you go there with a coordinated group its pointless. I want the rewards, but the content simply doesn't capture *my* interest. However, I know others who do like it, so to each their own. (Just a note: more hit points =/= fun)
People want activities with goals they can achieve without an enormous investment of time, yet something they feel is an achievement worthy of note. They want activities they can do on their own AND activities they need friends for. Balancing these contradictory wants won't ever be easy
GOOD grinds:
ToT (good rewards, decent drop rate, reasonably attainable goals)
Abyss mini-champs (since the spawn has the chance to drop ingredients (though the champ loot itself needs a larger ingredient bump))
Mutant turkeys (They were amusing holiday fare, they had chances for useful loot, the MAPS were fun)
Halloween 2009 (Cute quest, awesome rewards)
Doom Gauntlet (still has useful drops after 11 years, uses the "guaranteed drop system")
Trick or Treat (People love this...though its time to cut down on some of the items)
BAD grinds:
The Awakening, Act IV/Sifting sand (Abysmal fragment drop rate, mobs that nobody really wanted to bother fighting)
The Awakening, Act II/Grave Robbers (This was a mindless grind that had NO decent rewards. The statues don't even make sounds and having loyalty to the Juka or Meer still has no benefit/meaning)
Exodus keys (spawn rate of altars being WAY too high relative to the items every character needs. Taint being needed to craft rites..)
Halloween 2009 (The bad parts were the sparkles spawning in unreachable areas, dropping the essences on the gypsies not being instanced to your character)
Echoes of the Past: Journey to the Athenaeum Isle (10! items to collect via the RNG to turn in for...a book. Mobs with way too many hit points. This one just hurt.)
It certainly is a difficult balance to strike. We try to put something in for everyone to the greatest extent we can, which means balancing for a variety of play styles, grouping dynamics, and play session lengths. It's one of the most challenging aspects of making changes to the world, luckily our players are very dedicated and let us know exactly what they do and don't like. We love constructive feedback and thank you for your input!My answer: Yes...and no.
Kill mobs over and over in the hopes of a drop. Collect the drops to turn in for bigger rewards. So ToT was definitely a grind mechanic.
BUT, people were (and still are) crazy about it. Why? Well, I can only surmise it was because many of the minor drops were useful by themselves. The turn in rewards were even better: dyes, tome, kasa, etc. The goals were "easier" to reach, which undoubtedly led more people to participate.
Blackthorn's is a long, boring, grindy slog to get the rewards most people want, thus the rampant AFKer contingent. Perhaps if GM response to their dominance wasn't complete and total apathy, more people might enjoy the spawn.
Personally, I don't enjoy the mini city areas. The drop rate is way to inconsistent and unless you go there with a coordinated group its pointless. I want the rewards, but the content simply doesn't capture *my* interest. However, I know others who do like it, so to each their own. (Just a note: more hit points =/= fun)
People want activities with goals they can achieve without an enormous investment of time, yet something they feel is an achievement worthy of note. They want activities they can do on their own AND activities they need friends for. Balancing these contradictory wants won't ever be easy
GOOD grinds:
ToT (good rewards, decent drop rate, reasonably attainable goals)
Abyss mini-champs (since the spawn has the chance to drop ingredients (though the champ loot itself needs a larger ingredient bump))
Mutant turkeys (They were amusing holiday fare, they had chances for useful loot, the MAPS were fun)
Halloween 2009 (Cute quest, awesome rewards)
Doom Gauntlet (still has useful drops after 11 years, uses the "guaranteed drop system")
Trick or Treat (People love this...though its time to cut down on some of the items)
BAD grinds:
The Awakening, Act IV/Sifting sand (Abysmal fragment drop rate, mobs that nobody really wanted to bother fighting)
The Awakening, Act II/Grave Robbers (This was a mindless grind that had NO decent rewards. The statues don't even make sounds and having loyalty to the Juka or Meer still has no benefit/meaning)
Exodus keys (spawn rate of altars being WAY too high relative to the items every character needs. Taint being needed to craft rites..)
Halloween 2009 (The bad parts were the sparkles spawning in unreachable areas, dropping the essences on the gypsies not being instanced to your character)
Echoes of the Past: Journey to the Athenaeum Isle (10! items to collect via the RNG to turn in for...a book. Mobs with way too many hit points. This one just hurt.)
Blackthorns is modeled after ToT with some obvious changes. For one thing, with imbuing and reforging, creating minor artifacts is no longer feasible. As a result we used random artifact generation based on new loot props. We also wanted to provide a permanent home for that content in the game, since conversion artifacts are very desirable...as a result the values for turn in were higher than ToT since that was limited release. Both systems use a guaranteed drop mechanic just like Doom, which is a mechanic you'll see in future content as well.