Interesting opinion and hopelessly wrong
Care to support your stated opinion with fact or is this just a case of some that thinks their opinions do not require fact.
Need it be pointed out that "Informed" and "Logical" are subjective terms?
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Republican party
- Thread starter Atlantian
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Care to support your stated opinion with fact or is this just a case of some that thinks their opinions do not require fact.
Need it be pointed out that "Informed" and "Logical" are subjective terms?
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Animal11
Guest
When I started out in workforce, minimum wage was $1.60 an hour. I had as many as 3 roommates in one tiny assed apartment. My first car cost me $300 and was a total POS. We had no insurance beyond barely affording car insurance (liability only). These were the things we collectively had to do in order to move out on our own. But wow, those were some great days....
Fast forward to today.... Now, I make more than 40K a year, but in the business world, you don't start out at the top, or rarely even close to the middle. Normally, new hires start out on the ground floor and can change their circumstances, pay and or benefits through working dilligently. You have the opportunity to work your up through the ranks of those who have'nt the time, desire, intelligence, etc.
The world and businesses owe you nothing. Jobs are a side benefit of a company or business that is succeeding. Perks, bonuses, benefits, insurance, etc. offered by a company/business is their way of competing in the marketplace for the best and brightest to make the business/company even more successful. In many business plans, these 'perks' will not be possible for the business to offer to all or any of their employees in order to maintain viabillity. You can (and should) weigh that as a reason for eventually leaving that employ in order to improve your own circumstance.
Nothing is free. Govt. supplied insurance won't be free. Forced coverage to employers will be a job killer and ultimately, a business mega-killer. It will make those midnight burger runs cost you $20 instead of $5.
What I don't 'get', is why anyone would look to Govt. to supply them with the things they should want to, or be expected to, provide for themselves.
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Atlantian
Guest
No one ever mentioned getting free insurance or having the government take care of them. All that was asked was why support a group that won't help out people that make 40,000 or less a year.
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Animal11
Guest
Define 'help out' people. All I ever wanted from the federal Govt. is to stay out of the way of individuals (me) achieving prosperity (albeit low taxes). I don't take hand-ups, hand-outs or Govt. supplied charity... could'nt do it, too much personal pride. That would be throwing in the towel for me and when I do that, its time for Scotty to beam me up. You, on the otherhand, might be comfy with cradle to grave or similiar Govt. assistance. Its OK if you do, its just not for me.... I blame my parents for teaching me a good work ethic and strong self-reliance lessons.
As to 'free' insurance. Your initial post sure seemed to suggest wanting it 'free' or via some Govt. mandated coverage.
I've supported Repubs since 1976... and I was dead broke poor for many of those years. Its my penance for voting for the true worst eveh President. Now, IMO, our country has been hosed and voted to revisit 1976. Hope I'm wrong.
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Atlantian
Guest
I own my own business and have never asked for hand outs. I mention this because of my employees because I see them having to pay big bucks for ins. because I can't afford to pay for it for them. We are the ones that pay the government (and I pay a S***load of taxes) so I don't see the harm in the government helping out a bit for the people that can't afford ins. What I'm saying is if I have to pay so much tax why can't my taxes go to help my employees? What I pay in taxes would get everyone of them good health and dental and there would still be tax money left over.
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Flora Green
Guest
THIS.
Because it hurts other people to "help them out."
If you had a ten year old child who broke their leg, and you could have it instantly healed, but you'd have to have a 40 year old man's pinky fingers cut off, would you do it?
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Atlantian
Guest
You are entitled to your opinion as well as I am. Dealing with republicans is like dealing with a 2 year old child. Temper tantrum is a sure thing when they don't get their way.
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Parson
Guest
The republican party is on the verge of extinction.
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ElRay
Guest
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ElRay
Guest
Your right........hes only allowed 8 years, but im sure he will make the most of it.
Suck it up
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Animal11
Guest
Its not an attack on Obama... its more on political philosophy. Repubs lost their way via an ever growing Govt., wild deficit spending, etc. These are/were not the promises of Conservative governing, and got deservedly ousted. Now the real big spending/bloated govt. morons are in charge. Pardon some of us for not being thrilled about that. McCain was not a great option, but as change goes, he was the only one who brought credibility to the table.
We part company when it comes to wanting these things. Apparently you like govt care from cradle to grave and/or reject personal responsibility for your own 'pursuit of happiness'. Some of us don't think Govt should be responsible to tend to all our wants and needs.
Trivia time! Who speechified, "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"?
Times have certainly changed (for the worse)... someone saying this today in a political speech would be called a neo-con!
My super simplest answer would be
A) Rich people support it for self-serving financial reasons.
B) Poor Republicans are overwhelmingly white and strongly male, and tend to identify with being Republican on racial solidarity (perception of Mexicans/gays/blacks/women/insert your minority trying to come in and take all the white man's rights and money) and "moral issues."
C) The second group are largely just tools of the first group. If any question arises between what's best for the rich and what the churchgoing moral values or white American pride types want, the former is always paramount. It's also become increasingly evident that even when in control of the whole government, the Rep Party is not serious about pursuing all the moral agendas they promise to excite the moral issues base, and instead just use it as a gimmick to get them out to vote.
Completely false comparison.
Try this one.
Sick kid can be cured of fatal, chronic disease for $100 worth of antibiotics.
58 year old white man in the upper 5% spends that much on his caviar appetizer at lunch everyday.
That would be closer.
The typical, false argument made from Republicans (or those who defend them while pretending not to identify with them..) is that you are taking food out of someone's mouth to put it in someone else's when it comes to the tax structure in our society. Which is laughable, we have liberally low tax rates even compared to other Republican administrations within the 20th century (look up what the highest brackets paid under Eisenhower or Nixon compared to today... the rich have it pretty good). And it also implies that someone making over 250k is struggling to eat and cover basic life dignity expenses or not endure years of suffering becuase they can't afford healthcare or prescriptions.
If you'd like we can actually use facts...link
The top 1% wealthiest people in the population earn 19% of the income, yet pay 37% of the taxes.
The top 10% pay 68% of the taxes.
The bottom 50% earn 13% of the income, but pay 3% of the total income tax.
Sorry, but if you are using the tax base to pay for someone elses insurance...guess what...the people who are paying for their own are paying for those who do not.
Ever heard of Robin Hood? A story written by a liberal who helped start the old rob from the rich to help the poor scenario...la
The top 1% wealthiest people in the population earn 19% of the income, yet pay 37% of the taxes.
The top 10% pay 68% of the taxes.
The bottom 50% earn 13% of the income, but pay 3% of the total income tax.
Sorry, but if you are using the tax base to pay for someone elses insurance...guess what...the people who are paying for their own are paying for those who do not.
Ever heard of Robin Hood? A story written by a liberal who helped start the old rob from the rich to help the poor scenario...la
1) Nothing you said in any way.... corrected or disputed anything I said.
I never said the poor pay more in taxes than the rich.2) The bottom 50% earn 13% of the income, and the majority of that goes to very basic living costs. In some cases it falls short, depending on family size and local availability of employment or cost of living. (Try to find housing in a state like New York or California on the minimum wage, or even within a few dollars of it.) So I am not sure what your point is, unless you are operating from an assumption that everyone should pay a direct proportion of what they make, regardless of how much that is, and so the poor are "getting off easy" paying only 3% of the taxes.
3) Of course I've heard of Robin Hood, what is your point? Do you believe tax money pays only for things that help the poor? Do you think the poor are ever going to see a payback on the Iraq War? Or the cuts to corporate and upper income earner tax rates in the last 8 years?
You're not necessarily a hypocrite for not liking taxes. You ARE a hypocrite, however, if you believe that the only time taxes are evil is when they are helping someone from the bottom of society with some basic need, like education, housing or healthcare. And if you think that tax money has ever and only ever benefits the poor at the expense of the rich, then we're onto a whole new topic, revisionist history. Having a cow when taxes "hurt" the rich to "give to the lazy poor slobs", but not really minding when tax money is routed into any of many examples of corporate welfare, government advocacy (through the military or foreign policy or tax policy or the handing out of no-bid contracts) of favored private industries, or basically in some way helping those who already have a lot get more on really no reason whatsoever other than because they want it (tax subsidies for the oil companies, anyone? How about a tax cut if you outsource? Here you go.) bespeaks a value system which I don't think is good and which will prevent you and I from seeing eye to eye.
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Flora Green
Guest
Joy. The racism card again.
Maybe you should investigate the numbers before speaking out on this issue. How many people actually support a family on minimum wages? Min wages jobs are for kids who live with mom and dad or who are still going to school. Besides. Min wage earners don't pay taxes if they are supporting a family. Moot point.
Let's see, how many jobs were created in the military for "the poor" to have access too? I'd say that is a chance for someone who can't make it, I'm not saying the jobs are only for the poor, but even you as a liberal have to agree that for the most part, many poor do join the military. Cuts in corporate rates...well, many of those corporations create things such as jobs...more tax cuts allow for more jobs...so again. Moot point.
ROFL...more liberal talking points. No-bid contracts...rofl. Do you even know how a no-bid vs bidding contract is different? Have you ever worked with the government, dealing with contracts? **** for that matter have you ever worked on a contract? I have...on both points. No-bid contracts aren't just ways for politicians to hand out gifts to their friends, as you seem to be implying. Congress has oversight, but all of the contracts are worked through the military or specific government office. Oh, and if you were hinting at Haliburton and the administration...please don't waste your breath. Were you aware that the contracts Haliburton was under when the war started...were written during the Clinton administration? Oh, and a little homework for you. I'd like for you to find the other companies in the world that can provide the same services that Haliburton can, at the cost they can do it.
Now get to work...la
Do we even live in the same country?
Yes, if you are a middle class person with access to education and other avenues of advancement, a minimum wage job is just a temporary stepping stone during high school. But you are living in another society altogether if you think a lot of working families aren't trying to survive on minimum wage. Perhaps you should step outside of suburbia before speaking out on this issue.
The military exists to help the poor? Okay. That's news to me. But, yes, the point that many military jobs have very low requirements aside from basic physical and extremely basic educational ones does mean that the military is a means for many people to at least gain employment, if only temporarily. Although I think before acting like "well, there's the military, so stop whining about the poor" again reflects a very poor understanding of reality today, what things cost, and how times have changed. I would like to see you go to college today on what military grant money provides you after you complete your term of service. All of my friends who entered the military wound up working full time through college anyway --- most of them received so little actual money compared to the real-life cost of paying for both college and living expenses that I heard many of them wondering what was the point. It is certainly nothing like the GI Bill of the WWII era where guys coming back from service went to school and didn't have to worry much about the financial side of how they were going to pay for tens and tens of thousands of dollars this year for their education costs.
And, as for the tax rates being cut creating more jobs.... have you been out of the country for 8 years? Or are you just repeating this Reaganomics talking point without needing any real-life evidence that it actually works whatsoever? Cutting the taxes on the top income earners and corporations has failed to create net gain creation of new jobs. Jobs have been steadily lost for 8 years of exactly the policy you advocate on the basis that it creates new jobs. So, please, get a new argument instead of repeating a belief system which has failed to work in real practice.
LOLOLOL lmao lmao ROFL. ....la
Yes and yes.
Haha, why, because it blows a hole the size of the USS Cole into your argument that there is nothing at all questionable about the process of no-bid contracts under an administration which routinely controls or restricts oversight?
This is leading the horse off further down the wrong track. We wouldn't have had to worry about who could have provided the same services at the same cost if a) there hadn't been an insistence (through incompetence or dishonesty) that we could do the job with a much smaller force than senior generals believed b) we hadn't been erroneously invading a country in the first place.
But hey, if we're in a war we don't need to be in, with way fewer resources than we needed to commit to it, and shorter on manpower than we should have been.. HALLIBURTON CAN STEP IN AND FILL THE GAP!
Nope, no corruption here. ....la
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Flora Green
Guest
So?
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ElRay
Guest
Your viewpoint is skewed pretty badly. Yes, less than 3-1/2 dollars out of every $100 paid in income taxes in the United States is paid by someone in the bottom 50% of wage earners.
BUT.......
Are the top half millionaires? Noooo, more like "thousandaires." The top 50% were those individuals or couples filing jointly who earned $29,019 and up in 2003. (The top 1% earned $295,495-plus.)
The above statistics could well have the effect of angering anyone who makes more than $29,019 since it implies that they are helping to pay for the lower 50 percent of wage-earners. In fact, this is an example of the misleading use of averages. Following is a summary of the IRS data being cited by Rush: http://home.att.net/~rdavis2/richpay.html
Basically, if you dont like whats going on in our government with taxes, you have 2 choices, a) GTFO of the country, goto Canada or something.
b) Tax evasion, although I hear the IRS is pretty adept at catching crooks, and you dont seem to be particularly smart anyhow.
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Dutchhans
Guest
Political parties come up and go down, to reinvent themselves.
I am willing to bet that in eight years a Republican will generate the excitement.
I am willing to bet that in eight years a Republican will generate the excitement.
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Flora Green
Guest
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Flora Green
Guest
I know. Was trying to be especially positive...
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gjohnson5
Guest
Based on supply side economics , Reaganomics , Bush economic policy (they are all the same thing) it makes absolutely no sense at all for someone who makes this kind of yearly salary to vote someone in who will actively wage class warfare against you
I need a pic of someone shooting themselves in the foot , because 1/2 of the country did that for the last 8 years and we're now paying for it. LOL @ this people supporting big oil and $4.00/gallon gasoline which they basically choked the life out of the rest of the economy.
Fact:
Mortgage = "death grip" in Latin
Many mortgage brokers are worse then loan sharks. They are trying to sell houses in the poor neighborhoods here in Georgia for 150,000 where people hourly rate averages $10.00/hour at best.... This is what happens when poor people vote conservative. You get exploited (death gripped) to the fullest
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Flora Green
Guest
Amusing.
Wait, are you talking about voting Obama, the guy whose entire campaign was "**** people who have money, they don't deserve it, YOU do!"?
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gjohnson5
Guest
You should study supply side economics. Being against it doesn't mean I am a socialist. However I am concerned that Republican / Libertarians or other fundamental conservatives has clearly confused and misconstrued many people into thinking you are either pro market fundamentalism , or you're a socialist. Clearly market fundamentalism, deregulation, relaxing of anti trust have clearly failed. This has led to a recession and unemployment numbers not seen since the Great Depression. That point is fact....
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gjohnson5
Guest
Unfortunately this is not what's happening.
The bailouts mean that taxpayers in general are being taxed to provide income to business owners. This is called flood up economics. The poor are being taxed to help fuel private enterprise. These tarp loans are being done without the people receiving any stake in these companies. This is anything but what you state above
The poor typically aren't taxed by the feds...la
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gjohnson5
Guest
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gjohnson5
Guest
But this is why companies instead of hiring people as employees grant 1099 jobs. That way they don't have to pay employment/unemployment/healthcare and other benefits to you and you are stuck with a tax free check (which you will have to pay taxes to the feds)...
This is commonly done for stupid IT people who know computers and can't spell finances....
There's plenty of ways to skin a cat.
To poor aren't all 1099 employees, most are just little peons who haven't bothered to educate themselves wnough to get a better paying job. Anyone over 21 making minimum wage for more than a month...should help the world out, and kill themselves...la
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Flora Green
Guest
The world needs toilet cleaners, Rico.
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Kazar
Guest
Thats a load of crap! My girlfriend just got her "bonus check" from her company and the feds took almost 46% in taxes. We don't make a lot of cash but I can't understand where you think the middle class and lower class people are paying less in taxes. Hell! The last check I received had more than 38% taken out of it. And someone here said that the rich pay more taxes? 3% is all 95% of the country pays? If it wasn't for the the 95% there would be no country! The 1% would be stroking their selves to see where they would be if it wasn't for the other 95% of the country! The top 1% aren't the ones that make the jobs or even help this country. The rich are only there to help their selves! All they are is rich! They have no talent and all they want is a name for themselves which none of them deserve. The people that bust their buts for them are the the ones that deserve the credit. Not some rich snob that didn't do a thing to earn it. Well...when you make more you're going to pay more! Get it together people! Jeez!!
LOL, and what happens when she files her tax return every year? Most if not all of the federal income tax she paid...is returned. Nice try.
lrn2accounting...la
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Flora Green
Guest
1. Because
2. Because
...la
2. Because
...la
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Atlantian
Guest
Not everyone gets money back. And I doubt that anyone here that plays this game makes enough to get tax right offs.
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Kazar
Guest
So you just assume that she makes the minimum? That's rich coming from a person that is on this sight 24/7.
First off, it's site.
Next point...I didn't assume anything. Nice try...and I am not on the site 24/7, but I suppose actually checking the times when I post would be too difficult for you...la