Huh, so it would seem the devs need to do testing before listening to people and giving into their requests lest we end up with more issues such as super-powered pets. lol
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PvP Tamers are Overpowered
- Thread starter drinkbeerallday
- Start date
- Watchers 2
Oh really?
From the Chicago town hall notes...
"The Balance Pass:
* Will likely be pushed as a publish in early 2009, prior to the release of Stygian Abyss.
* Greater Dragon fire breath will be nerfed for balance. It is much too powerful as is."
And from another town hall notes post..
"- Balancing animal damage: different balancing pass than weapons, on the list (specifically greater dragons)"
There have been other dev posts confirming that pet balancing is coming. But you're welcome to live in denial if you want. I'm sure that the more tamers run around with overpowered pets, the harder the resulting nerfs will be.
From a thread about GDs:
"I was listening to the Town Hall Meeting and what really peaked my interest was when a dev him self said "The Greater Dragon Hit's To Hard" "Nothing Like Getting Hit With 80 Points of Damage in PVP In One Shot" He went on to say something about how it wasn't the plan for Greater Dragons to be used for pvp Or something along that line...And that tamers found a way to use the Greater Dragon just for that purpose."
Also saw a similar comment posted elsewhere, but can't remember the exact source. But hey, if you want to believe different, be my guest *shrug*
Wenchy
Apperently, dreads and GDs werent tested and balanced before they released them and made them tamables.
Compare Dreads to a Nightmare. For just 1 more control slot(3 control slot) you can get a nightmare with double the HP, firebreathe for 45+ from 3 screens away and also has higher melee damage, with no slayer against them.
Then here's the stat for Ancient Wyrm for the past 10 years.
711hp / 175stam / 775mana, 1185str / 175dex / 775int
Greater Dragon
1998hp / 130stam / 675mana, 1425str / 148dex /675int
GD will pwn old Ancient wyrm's ass any time of the day. And I am aware of they buffed the ancient wyrm now but the fact is a creature that's much more powerful than a creature that was deemed too powerful to be owned by a player for the past ten(10) years is now a tamable and is MUCH stronger than the old non-tamable.
All these are UNBUFFED. If a ledgendary bless them please increase all the stats by 15%. Yes well over 1000hp... but anyways it's all balanced right ^^
After tame, a perfect GD can have the following stat. (I play a REAL tamer myself so trust me I know how stat change works and skill cap limitation better than 95% of the tamers/wannabes on this forum).
999hp / 144stam / 337mana, 712str / 125dex / 337int
Total: 1174 real stat point before bless (1350 after bless)
130.5 Wrestling
126 Tactics
126 Resists
100 Anatomy
126 Magery
126 Eval
100 Med
Total: 834.5 real skill points
Fire breathe 60-80 (depends on hp) unlimited range and ignore LoS usually in PvP.
Bleed attack that can be hit simulteneously with a 45+ dmg melee attack.
Compare this stat to a player. I mean I cant even have over 120 skills even if I load myself up with +skill items let along 130 REAL skill.
So stop comparing GD to a player. because it's clearly not fair. Yes you can argue that players are smarter, but I will assume that TAMER himself isnt ******** and is in fact a human. So a dexer/mage can use their intellgence and try to lay a combo that deal out "a lot of damage" to you while you can use all kill and/or your brain and throw out 200+dmg "instant kill" combo.
If you deny this, you are living in denial. (or you admit that you are not as smart as other human beings)
Tamer is the brain of the GD and can make GD work even more effectively, but GDs do NOT need a brain to instant kill someone. How many times you dismount someone and all kill and RUN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION and still have the guy killed? It's very common. And tamer is also the only class in game that can be running away from an opponent without casting/attacking at all on his part and still can sometimes kill someone.
Stop trolling, many of you. I provided the stats to support my argument. And if you cannot come up with any constructive counter-argument and can post nothing but go "JOo ALL SUXXX L2PVP, TAMEOR BALANCED, 5 GUY KILL ME" or trolling the forum will be reported.
Compare Dreads to a Nightmare. For just 1 more control slot(3 control slot) you can get a nightmare with double the HP, firebreathe for 45+ from 3 screens away and also has higher melee damage, with no slayer against them.
Then here's the stat for Ancient Wyrm for the past 10 years.
711hp / 175stam / 775mana, 1185str / 175dex / 775int
Greater Dragon
1998hp / 130stam / 675mana, 1425str / 148dex /675int
GD will pwn old Ancient wyrm's ass any time of the day. And I am aware of they buffed the ancient wyrm now but the fact is a creature that's much more powerful than a creature that was deemed too powerful to be owned by a player for the past ten(10) years is now a tamable and is MUCH stronger than the old non-tamable.
All these are UNBUFFED. If a ledgendary bless them please increase all the stats by 15%. Yes well over 1000hp... but anyways it's all balanced right ^^
After tame, a perfect GD can have the following stat. (I play a REAL tamer myself so trust me I know how stat change works and skill cap limitation better than 95% of the tamers/wannabes on this forum).
999hp / 144stam / 337mana, 712str / 125dex / 337int
Total: 1174 real stat point before bless (1350 after bless)
130.5 Wrestling
126 Tactics
126 Resists
100 Anatomy
126 Magery
126 Eval
100 Med
Total: 834.5 real skill points
Fire breathe 60-80 (depends on hp) unlimited range and ignore LoS usually in PvP.
Bleed attack that can be hit simulteneously with a 45+ dmg melee attack.
Compare this stat to a player. I mean I cant even have over 120 skills even if I load myself up with +skill items let along 130 REAL skill.
So stop comparing GD to a player. because it's clearly not fair. Yes you can argue that players are smarter, but I will assume that TAMER himself isnt ******** and is in fact a human. So a dexer/mage can use their intellgence and try to lay a combo that deal out "a lot of damage" to you while you can use all kill and/or your brain and throw out 200+dmg "instant kill" combo.
If you deny this, you are living in denial. (or you admit that you are not as smart as other human beings)
Tamer is the brain of the GD and can make GD work even more effectively, but GDs do NOT need a brain to instant kill someone. How many times you dismount someone and all kill and RUN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION and still have the guy killed? It's very common. And tamer is also the only class in game that can be running away from an opponent without casting/attacking at all on his part and still can sometimes kill someone.
Stop trolling, many of you. I provided the stats to support my argument. And if you cannot come up with any constructive counter-argument and can post nothing but go "JOo ALL SUXXX L2PVP, TAMEOR BALANCED, 5 GUY KILL ME" or trolling the forum will be reported.
R
RichDC
Guest
Now before i start i want to explain my position,
I played a PvM tamer for years and didnt have much time for PvP, until a few years ago, at such time i would take my tamer to champ spawns with GD in tow. I got frustrated with how easy i was to kill when raided, even with dismounts. as such i adjusted my template (well started a new one)
This new template incorporated the 2 temps i played previously, swords and tamer.(with bushido, new skill to me.)
As such i will say i have no problem with the firebreath being capped and not being able to be cast at such a huge distance. However, i dont see the reasoning behind capping base hit damage. Many times have i been hit with a Conc blow, Velocity, Hit spell all in a shorther time than my dread (pet of choice, i dont use a GD for pvp ever.)
I also Totaly agree with the no log out solution of preventing pet death...this would make my template alot more difficult as when i undoubtably die my pet would be out of the fight (of course i have no vet!)
I remember someone saying that no players can cast double FS as quick as a pet...yet on many occasions will i get stung with a double exp/FS before i have time to react!
Before i get slaughtered for being one of the most overpowered templates, i use my pet as an armour ignore in essence, my damage is mostly melee, and i assure you it take alot more buttons than 3...all kill bola (i cant count thats 2) just doesnt cut it in the field.lol! Most pvp tamers i fought are rarely of there mounts.
I played a PvM tamer for years and didnt have much time for PvP, until a few years ago, at such time i would take my tamer to champ spawns with GD in tow. I got frustrated with how easy i was to kill when raided, even with dismounts. as such i adjusted my template (well started a new one)
This new template incorporated the 2 temps i played previously, swords and tamer.(with bushido, new skill to me.)
As such i will say i have no problem with the firebreath being capped and not being able to be cast at such a huge distance. However, i dont see the reasoning behind capping base hit damage. Many times have i been hit with a Conc blow, Velocity, Hit spell all in a shorther time than my dread (pet of choice, i dont use a GD for pvp ever.)
I also Totaly agree with the no log out solution of preventing pet death...this would make my template alot more difficult as when i undoubtably die my pet would be out of the fight (of course i have no vet!)
I remember someone saying that no players can cast double FS as quick as a pet...yet on many occasions will i get stung with a double exp/FS before i have time to react!
Before i get slaughtered for being one of the most overpowered templates, i use my pet as an armour ignore in essence, my damage is mostly melee, and i assure you it take alot more buttons than 3...all kill bola (i cant count thats 2) just doesnt cut it in the field.lol! Most pvp tamers i fought are rarely of there mounts.
Rich, I can see the point you're making but I think the real difference between you and folks arguing against some PvP tamers is our preferred method of achieving balance.
You're saying effectively that other templates are too strong, so you feel you need to use your tamer with a powerful pet and template to compete.
I would say instead that pets and tamers should be pulled in check, but following that, other balances may well be necessary too. But that unbalanced templates don't justify use of overpowered pets and templates by tamers. As long as tamers go unchecked, they serve as justification for the gimplate guys and both camps use the other as a never ending excuse.
If someone uses a speed hack to escape me, I'm not going to use that as an excuse to do the same. I just shrug them off as the unskilled coward they are. Same with gimplates and other nonsense. If you need those toys to PvP then you suck. I'm not wasting my time pulling out a GD or dread to kill those guys. Much more satisfying to kill them with a far less powerful pet and really shame their sorry backsides. I might have to work a lot harder for my kills, but that's what makes them fun.
Now as to the lack of vet, well I'm sorry, but a tamer who bonds with their pet should have (at all times) the skill to take care of their side of the bargain. You shouldn't be able to bond with that pet unless you have 80/80 lore and vet and can actually res the beast. PvP without vet should mean sacrificing some of the tamer perks. Not just worrying that your pet got killed and needs a res. Remember, logging out is not an offensive spell. Tamers should take care of their pets, including PvP ones. This is why we need vet skill and why there is a skill penalty if your bonded pet dies. If you don't want vet, but you want to PvP, disposable pets worked just fine for me when I factioned. All my tamers have vet, I can kill just fine with them. I would expect to lose some perks if I stoned vet off a PvP tamer, not have another skill and the perk of a bonded pet.
Wenchy
You're saying effectively that other templates are too strong, so you feel you need to use your tamer with a powerful pet and template to compete.
I would say instead that pets and tamers should be pulled in check, but following that, other balances may well be necessary too. But that unbalanced templates don't justify use of overpowered pets and templates by tamers. As long as tamers go unchecked, they serve as justification for the gimplate guys and both camps use the other as a never ending excuse.
If someone uses a speed hack to escape me, I'm not going to use that as an excuse to do the same. I just shrug them off as the unskilled coward they are. Same with gimplates and other nonsense. If you need those toys to PvP then you suck. I'm not wasting my time pulling out a GD or dread to kill those guys. Much more satisfying to kill them with a far less powerful pet and really shame their sorry backsides. I might have to work a lot harder for my kills, but that's what makes them fun.
Now as to the lack of vet, well I'm sorry, but a tamer who bonds with their pet should have (at all times) the skill to take care of their side of the bargain. You shouldn't be able to bond with that pet unless you have 80/80 lore and vet and can actually res the beast. PvP without vet should mean sacrificing some of the tamer perks. Not just worrying that your pet got killed and needs a res. Remember, logging out is not an offensive spell. Tamers should take care of their pets, including PvP ones. This is why we need vet skill and why there is a skill penalty if your bonded pet dies. If you don't want vet, but you want to PvP, disposable pets worked just fine for me when I factioned. All my tamers have vet, I can kill just fine with them. I would expect to lose some perks if I stoned vet off a PvP tamer, not have another skill and the perk of a bonded pet.
Wenchy
Thanks for a meaningful reply. Pets for a fact can cast any spells doubled up(first pet casting advantage) instantly at no casting time and canNOT be disrrupted (a major point).
If you are implying one mage casts two explosion and two flame strike on you instantly like a pet can throw 2 FSs it's technically impossible. Explosion takes 1.75sec to cast at cap casting speed and FS takes 2second both interruptable and cannot be cast on the run, in other words PARALYZE the caster in place for at least 3.75 seconds assuming hes not weakened, struck ect ect. And you will NEVER be able to cast a FS and have another FS struck you 0.5 second right after the first one. Because again, it's systematically impossible UNLESS it's a pet that cast it. Also explosion comes with 3 second delay, and after the explosion is cast on you the mage assuming got the FS off at perfect timing thats two seconds later then he releases it and Explosion will take effect and FS will hit right after.
Players simply cant cast two spells at no casting time no freeze in place and cast two in a cast, pets however can do it and they are DESIGNED to cast two spells at a time.
As an example for your Exp FS combo hitting at the sametime. Now if your pet chose to cast Exp then FS, FS will hit you 3 seconds before the Exp can take effect.
And in PvP, dread warhorse is what really shines. Run up mount speed, Nerve, dismount all kill, nerve is a good combo, and if the dread fire breathe before they can leave the 3 screens of range, they are generally dead instantly if your nerve strikes hit them.
GD isnt easy to kill 1v1. It's easy to kill with a gank squad pretty quick, but lets say the same gank squad now have their target on a PLAYER... it's instant death...
If you are implying one mage casts two explosion and two flame strike on you instantly like a pet can throw 2 FSs it's technically impossible. Explosion takes 1.75sec to cast at cap casting speed and FS takes 2second both interruptable and cannot be cast on the run, in other words PARALYZE the caster in place for at least 3.75 seconds assuming hes not weakened, struck ect ect. And you will NEVER be able to cast a FS and have another FS struck you 0.5 second right after the first one. Because again, it's systematically impossible UNLESS it's a pet that cast it. Also explosion comes with 3 second delay, and after the explosion is cast on you the mage assuming got the FS off at perfect timing thats two seconds later then he releases it and Explosion will take effect and FS will hit right after.
Players simply cant cast two spells at no casting time no freeze in place and cast two in a cast, pets however can do it and they are DESIGNED to cast two spells at a time.
As an example for your Exp FS combo hitting at the sametime. Now if your pet chose to cast Exp then FS, FS will hit you 3 seconds before the Exp can take effect.
And in PvP, dread warhorse is what really shines. Run up mount speed, Nerve, dismount all kill, nerve is a good combo, and if the dread fire breathe before they can leave the 3 screens of range, they are generally dead instantly if your nerve strikes hit them.
GD isnt easy to kill 1v1. It's easy to kill with a gank squad pretty quick, but lets say the same gank squad now have their target on a PLAYER... it's instant death...
R
RichDC
Guest
I see both your points in above 2 posts and i will say wenchy... my normal mare is being trained from now i like that idea!!!
Plus your point of speedhacking struck home, i wouldnt hack to compete with cheaters so why should i gimp?
The point i was tryin to make on the casting wasnt that one person does it admitadly, i was refering to 2people double casting in sync.(i dont get many 1vs1, to be honest i dont look for them, most my fighting comes from champ spawn field fights)
Having said that i do agree that the casting on a pet should follow the same rules as player casting, altho at max casting?or protection and 0 casting?
Plus your point of speedhacking struck home, i wouldnt hack to compete with cheaters so why should i gimp?
The point i was tryin to make on the casting wasnt that one person does it admitadly, i was refering to 2people double casting in sync.(i dont get many 1vs1, to be honest i dont look for them, most my fighting comes from champ spawn field fights)
Having said that i do agree that the casting on a pet should follow the same rules as player casting, altho at max casting?or protection and 0 casting?
Aye, the faster casting combined with a simultaneous fireball is only funny if you're the owner of the pet itself. I think the casting speed really should be looked at. Just reminds me of champ hunting in Fire soon after they'd added auto attack casting to the imps... *winces* I think it's probably a good thing we can't have 5 imp packs lol.
Wenchy
Wenchy
R
RichDC
Guest
Oh but you can...and all it takes is 40skill points!!!
(admitadly they arent 7xgm with 100+hp and pack instinct!)
On the pack instinct as i brought it up how effective is a 3 pack...pack??
(admitadly they arent 7xgm with 100+hp and pack instinct!)
On the pack instinct as i brought it up how effective is a 3 pack...pack??
Y
Yalp
Guest
Just wondering.. is it possible that these comments were from the hysteria that ensued in the weeks before Greaters were actually introduced? Is it wholly possible that the comments were uttered before devs had taken a real look at all sides of the tamer/pvp issue? Is it possible there was such an uproar before these dragons were used in game that the devs felt the need to comment?
Perhaps, they looked at several factors..
The team of a tamer/greater v. other pvp teams
The lack of tamer/greater teams in pvp
The basic tactics used to defeat greaters
The drawbacks of greaters
Pet AI
Templates that counter tamer/greater team
The positives of the greater
The ability to nerf something in pvp ONLY
But then again, I'm not a dev, as far as I know, you're no dev. So who really knows? I just know.. the few hysterical voices who repeatedly start this thread need a counter to the chant of nerf greaters. That is something I hope the devs DO take into account.
Is it possible that you're wrong? Yes it is. Very.
Perhaps they did, then decided the GD was in need of a nerf.
The hysterical voices here are from tamers who seem to think that PvPing shouldn't be about skill and tactics, but about throwing the biggest meat shield into battle and expecting to get away with it. If you were that great at PvP, you wouldn't care about GDs, because you wouldn't need to use them to score a kill. You might even realise how overpowered they are for PvM as well as PvP. I won't hold my breath there though
I'd suggest you try and adapt to PvPing without that GD now, because I don't fancy your chances in avoiding the nerf stick.
Wenchy
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
:yawn:
This argument is getting old.
Here's the deal...in PvP, every single class/template is going to use whatever they have available to them. Some peope cheat, others don't. Some templates have items or pets that are overpowered, some don't.
Adjust.
This argument is getting old.
Here's the deal...in PvP, every single class/template is going to use whatever they have available to them. Some peope cheat, others don't. Some templates have items or pets that are overpowered, some don't.
Adjust.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
stop trolling I am expecting a more intellgent reply wuth stats to support their counter argument.
I will repeat my arguments.
GD is more powerful then the AW that was deemed too powerful to be tamed for the past 10 years, and stats proved it so. This leads to a question that the new pets are too powerful to own and to be commanded? and is it OK for pets to INSTANT kill a player in straight 70s in PvP? Is pet's 3 screen casting range reasonable? Is it OK that pets can double up spells in 1 cast regardless of spell circle and uninterruptable and instant cast them on the run?
You have nothing to say?
ok troll you are reported.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Oh please...no, don't report me as a "troll" because I disagree with you...
...I can't imagine anyone using that tactic.
But it you want to actually discuss this without all the insults and chest thumping...
...I agree with you.
I posted in a different thread that I didn't really understand the purpose of the Greater Dragons.
As a tamer, I would have much preferred being able to tame a Shadow Wyrm or an Ancient Wyrm, even if they were nerfed a good bit on taming, than I would a Greater Dragon.
Why? They are different pets. A Shadow Wyrm is a necro, and no other pet that I am aware of can cast necro spells. That would be interesting, and certainly powerful...but in a different way than just standard FS/Firebreath/Bleed = Death.
The Ancient Wyrm has always sort of been the Holy Grail of dragons in UO, and they should have left it that way.
But with all that said, I can understand why they felt the need to add a high HP tame.
You say you are playing a tamer...so let me ask, have you taken your Rune Beetle or an Old School Dragon or WW to fight some of the newer peerless monsters, or better yet...the new invasion monsters??
My WW is 7xGM with excellent stats and resists, yet she dies in mere seconds (way faster than even 3 tamers vetting her can keep up with) against many of the new peerless bosses, and she wouldn't even last that long against a Crimson Dragon.
Now I am not saying that any pet should be able to take down Crimson Dragon...just that it is nice to have SOME pet that can do a little damage to them before you have to call them off to heal them.
The Cu was a good addition on that front, but the GD is a true tank.
Now...not much of this relates to the fact that the GD is out of balance in PvP...I am just offering my opinions.
Sorry if that makes you think I am a "troll" or a "n00b" or anything like that...but you did say you wanted to discuss.
T
Turdnugget
Guest
This thread makes me chuckle... PvP tamers aren't the only ones overpowered... what about a mage/necro wielding a -mage weapon having 60+ DCI?
I've gone up against many on my dexer... hitting them few and far between, in that time the necro is able to cast a plethera of spells to kill me...this being done with a HLD weapon + high HCI. Is that not overpowered?
It's been stated before... I think the people pissing and moaning about this can't handle a tamer...Just today I killed a tamer with his GD right NEXT to him at a spawn I was defending. He had put his pet on me before I even touched him, wasn't hard to kill him... ran off screen real quick, came back, gave him a nerve strike and LS'd him to death. Given I was using a samurai/parry chr and had evasion up so the GD didn't hurt me... tamers CAN be dealt with.
Typically the tamers who can't or are extremely hard to kill have either been playing a loooooong time and they know how this game works OR they cheat. There's plenty of speeders/scripters out there running a dexer/tamer. They're not the only ones cheating though.
I do agree that fire breath SHOULD be toned down in PvP. Pets shouldn't cast from off screen.
I would rather see a fix in CHEATERS (speeder/scripts) than I would with anything else PvP related. I would rather die to a tamer than I would someone who can be 7 tiles behind me, and jump 3 tiles ahead of me in pretty much one movement...
I've gone up against many on my dexer... hitting them few and far between, in that time the necro is able to cast a plethera of spells to kill me...this being done with a HLD weapon + high HCI. Is that not overpowered?
It's been stated before... I think the people pissing and moaning about this can't handle a tamer...Just today I killed a tamer with his GD right NEXT to him at a spawn I was defending. He had put his pet on me before I even touched him, wasn't hard to kill him... ran off screen real quick, came back, gave him a nerve strike and LS'd him to death. Given I was using a samurai/parry chr and had evasion up so the GD didn't hurt me... tamers CAN be dealt with.
Typically the tamers who can't or are extremely hard to kill have either been playing a loooooong time and they know how this game works OR they cheat. There's plenty of speeders/scripters out there running a dexer/tamer. They're not the only ones cheating though.
I do agree that fire breath SHOULD be toned down in PvP. Pets shouldn't cast from off screen.
I would rather see a fix in CHEATERS (speeder/scripts) than I would with anything else PvP related. I would rather die to a tamer than I would someone who can be 7 tiles behind me, and jump 3 tiles ahead of me in pretty much one movement...
R
rockytriton
Guest
the original poster is nuts, he needs to learn how to play a warrior I guess. And the whole business about farming gold is rubbish, if I decide to go farm gold with my dragon, I go to kill lesser hiryu, they give 1k each and my dragon bites them about 10 to 15 times to kill them. Why would I do that when I can get my archer and kill them in 2 to 3 hits, MUCH faster, now that's how you farm gold.
Y
Yalp
Guest
Seems to me 2 things..Is it possible that you're wrong? Yes it is. Very.
Perhaps they did, then decided the GD was in need of a nerf.
The hysterical voices here are from tamers who seem to think that PvPing shouldn't be about skill and tactics, but about throwing the biggest meat shield into battle and expecting to get away with it. If you were that great at PvP, you wouldn't care about GDs, because you wouldn't need to use them to score a kill. You might even realise how overpowered they are for PvM as well as PvP. I won't hold my breath there though
I'd suggest you try and adapt to PvPing without that GD now, because I don't fancy your chances in avoiding the nerf stick.
Wenchy
pvp is whatever you make it.. ganking, gimping and/or cheating.. it's all fel!
and..
having a different view than Wenchy offends his sense of omnipotence.
Sorry to have not fallen into line dude. With all due respect I will agree to disagree with you... sorry we couldn't have had a more adult dialogue. Cheers!
Y
Yalp
Guest
I am all for actual single player v. single player... but until gank squads are eliminated.. I see no reason to outlaw tamer/pets in pvp.
Never understood this kind of mentality. "Sure they are imbalances, sure some templates are clearly over powered... oh well!"
I mean aside from self serving motives. It makes sense to me to try to make the game as balanced as possible, and initially try to avoid creating imbalance (like letting these absurd pets into the game with...zero...player testing) OR doing what you can to fix the balance mistakes when you clearly make a biff.
Wenchy just enlightening you on the fact that the devs indeed do consider the GD's out of control. I remeber that town hall posting, and it was WELL after we had all had GD's and realized how stupid they are.
I really wish they would hurry up with it, too. GD's are helping to kill an already sickly Siege P.
One thing is wrong, so there's no point in fixing other problems. I don't see the logic.
P.S. "Ganking" cannot be stopped, unless you make it so the only way to pvp is in a 1v1 area or "duel" option. Many people fight in a war, thats how it works.
I'm a returned player so MUCH has changed about the balance since I've been gone.
However... just throwing this out there....
if there is purportedly no problems with tamer balance whatsoever, why does it seem to me since I've been back that everyone either is one, or working on one?
Those things really don't tend to happen to one particular class when it's just a-ok mediocre balanced.
However... just throwing this out there....
if there is purportedly no problems with tamer balance whatsoever, why does it seem to me since I've been back that everyone either is one, or working on one?
Those things really don't tend to happen to one particular class when it's just a-ok mediocre balanced.
QFT. Generally whatever is gimp of the week is a good candidate for the hatchet.
U
UOKaiser
Guest
Question how many of the anti-gd pvp only in seige? And how many of the anti-gd dont play siege at all? Like ive said in siege they are a problem as nobody really can wear super items well I think that might of changed with factions but not sure how active factions are on siege. But when it comes to regular production shards they are easy to take down tamer and all if there by them self. With some very experience players keeping up with other experience players. Like I said if youre refering to nerfing them in siege put "siege" in youre post it be easier to keep track of things and hopefully dev will see that everything that is good for production is not good for siege and vice versa.
LOL I couldn't care less if you agree with me or not. Fall where you like, just don't block the fire exits or cause a trip hazard.
See, I didn't realise you were actually trying to have an adult conversation. It looked more like someone trying to justify using a bazooka to kill a fly, when normal folks would manage with a newspaper. Then apparently you had nothing more to argue and decided to flounce out and pretend to be the poor wee tamer. Well, it brought a smile to my coffee break at any rate
Especially the dude bit lol. Wenchy
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RichDC
Guest
I would like to say that imho tamers are powerful...they always were, they always were meant to be!!!
that was why it would take a month,2,3 to gm (hell ive had mine a year still isnt!)
whereas you can put a dexxer template fully together in what a week???
like anything in life the harder something is the more rewarding it is meant to be!
That being said i do still, as i said earlier, believe that ALL pets should follow the same casting rules as players(no double casting,normal range, interuptable) and a cap of maybe 50 on firebreaths? (a corpseskined, evil omened, flasmestrike.(i may have the number wrong)) pvp i mean here not pvm as is the case with SDI.
Now tamers and non...Is there really ANY flaw to what i suggest?
that was why it would take a month,2,3 to gm (hell ive had mine a year still isnt!)
whereas you can put a dexxer template fully together in what a week???
like anything in life the harder something is the more rewarding it is meant to be!
That being said i do still, as i said earlier, believe that ALL pets should follow the same casting rules as players(no double casting,normal range, interuptable) and a cap of maybe 50 on firebreaths? (a corpseskined, evil omened, flasmestrike.(i may have the number wrong)) pvp i mean here not pvm as is the case with SDI.
Now tamers and non...Is there really ANY flaw to what i suggest?
I just wish players had to train the skill from at most 50 rather than possibly 85 + jewels. Once I used to argue that taming took ages to train, and we deserved some of that power. Then the instant tamers popped up and I gave up arguing that point. Taming power should be worked for IMO, but sadly few tamers agree with it or do it
I'd like to see the vet skill counted for bonding as well, again giving power to the players who have put the time in training their tamer. That in itself would make a lot of gimplates much harder if they required at least 80 vet skill to bond a pet. And have a message come up that the pet had noticed they couldn't vet it, and it wasn't best pleased about it either. Maybe a gump saying something like "your pet has sensed that you aren't able to resurrect it any more and this has broken the bond between you. For its safety, your pet has been stabled."
Ideally I would like the changes to hit the tamer character first then the pets second. So the tamer would need real control skill, real vet to maintain bonding and possibly couldn't go into fast animal forms while commanding a GD. That group of fixes may well be enough to put most gimpy PvP tamers out of the game, or at the least reduce their power so they were far easier to deal with. Tamers who had the right amount of real skill would be unaffected. If you wanted to PvP without vet you would have to use disposable pets.
Then I'd look at what the pets need. GDs I think need toning down regardless, but I'd like to see players tackled before other critters. Or else we'd have gimplates squeezing out every last ounce of power from the nerfed pets, while those of us with the real skills would be struggling more. Especially if there was no way to keep PvM tamers from being affected. I just think the strongest tamers should be the ones with most skill, not the least
Wenchy
I'd like to see the vet skill counted for bonding as well, again giving power to the players who have put the time in training their tamer. That in itself would make a lot of gimplates much harder if they required at least 80 vet skill to bond a pet. And have a message come up that the pet had noticed they couldn't vet it, and it wasn't best pleased about it either. Maybe a gump saying something like "your pet has sensed that you aren't able to resurrect it any more and this has broken the bond between you. For its safety, your pet has been stabled."
Ideally I would like the changes to hit the tamer character first then the pets second. So the tamer would need real control skill, real vet to maintain bonding and possibly couldn't go into fast animal forms while commanding a GD. That group of fixes may well be enough to put most gimpy PvP tamers out of the game, or at the least reduce their power so they were far easier to deal with. Tamers who had the right amount of real skill would be unaffected. If you wanted to PvP without vet you would have to use disposable pets.
Then I'd look at what the pets need. GDs I think need toning down regardless, but I'd like to see players tackled before other critters. Or else we'd have gimplates squeezing out every last ounce of power from the nerfed pets, while those of us with the real skills would be struggling more. Especially if there was no way to keep PvM tamers from being affected. I just think the strongest tamers should be the ones with most skill, not the least
Wenchy
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RichDC
Guest
I dont really see a problem with this,
I was going to put the point across from aspiring PvM tamers who cant bond pets to train vet (maybe have vet on the same type of system as taming as for bonding)
But i couldnt justify it so i decided not to...
So unless there are decent reasons against, what would peoples reactions be to:
*all pets have the same casting rules as player chars
*firebreath is capped at the same damage as a high level Flamestrike (evil omen, corpse skinned)
*Vet is required to bond.
I was going to put the point across from aspiring PvM tamers who cant bond pets to train vet (maybe have vet on the same type of system as taming as for bonding)
But i couldnt justify it so i decided not to...
So unless there are decent reasons against, what would peoples reactions be to:
*all pets have the same casting rules as player chars
*firebreath is capped at the same damage as a high level Flamestrike (evil omen, corpse skinned)
*Vet is required to bond.
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ThePlague
Guest
Now.. there are only a couple things I have a problem with here, the biggest one, this ******** "dragon's breath" .. Okay in pvm when a dragon is fighting another dragon I can see how it doesn't matter as much.. When I have a dread warhorse chaining spells on me, then i get hit by fireballs back to back to back that do 40+ damage each to 70 fire resist, and i have a mage that was riding it spamming spells on me as well? There are people on this shard right now that with, utter incompetence, can get kills with dreadmares, they flamestrike one time, then put the dreadmare on you and if your unlucky with what the dreadmare decides to do, you die to a barage of superfireballs. Im not saying everything about tamers in pvp is bad, im saying this is grossly unbalanced, the dragon's breath special should at the very least have a timer of somesort on it so it can be chained, or maybe cost more mana so the pet cant do it as often.
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Yalp
Guest
Attempting to bully people who don't bow down to your point of view isn't mature, its childish. It's not wisdom, it's intellectual laziness.LOL I couldn't care less if you agree with me or not. Fall where you like, just don't block the fire exits or cause a trip hazard.
See, I didn't realise you were actually trying to have an adult conversation. It looked more like someone trying to justify using a bazooka to kill a fly, when normal folks would manage with a newspaper. Then apparently you had nothing more to argue and decided to flounce out and pretend to be the poor wee tamer. Well, it brought a smile to my coffee break at any rate
Wenchy
If you'd bothered to actually have learned of my position from my posts, you'd see I've laid out about a dozen points about the greaters NOT needing the nef stick. Instead of discussing those points, (hell any counterpoints), anyone who danes to come to these boards presenting an opposite opinion is attacked personally, belittled, cussed at, demeaned and dismissed. Usually with you leading the charge.
That's not discussion, that's a requirement to capitulate to your point of view. Assume what you want about my playstyle. Those that know me can't stop laughing at you.
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Turdnugget
Guest
Wouldn't the requirement of needing vet to bond a pet effect regular mounts as well? How many mages or dexers run around with 80 vet? It would have to be coded different...
What about people who soulstone the skill to get a pet to bond? Just like necro's who have bonded bake kitsune's after stoning animallore and such?
I think the problem lies with the firebreath itself. That's what I keep seeing over and over, is that a firebreath is doing 70+ dmg... why not put a cap on the amount of damage a firebreath does against a player? Make it cap like AI at 35.
I understand the arguement of making pets cast like us players with a casting time, being interrupted... but that could have a major effect in PvM as well. If you're GD is fighting a champion, or a Doom boss, how often is your pet going to be able to cast spells due to being interrupted by getting hit? It might just create a useless magic using pet who has to resort to melee damage because it can't get a spell off.
What about having the spell a pet is about to cast show over it's head? Kinda like UOA powerwords that show the actual spell being cast.
If they fix GD/Dreadmares in PvP... then I DEMAND they fix cast time on Evil Omen. How is that NOT overpowered? You shouldnt be able to cast explosion/fs and get EO off before the latter hits and be able to do 60+ damage. It takes almost no time to cast such a powerful spell.
I believe this tamer nerf should be directed to damage output in PvP for the pets. Not the player.
Then again if you don't know how to survive an attack from a tamer... maybe you shouldn't be PvP'ing...
Why not stop complaining about tamers in PvP and why not ask for more fixes to those CHEATING in PvP by using speed enhancing programs, stump hacks, scripts, ghost cams etc.
Or are you the cheaters who are getting killed by tamers and so you're pissed because you're cheats don't save you all the time and make you godly at UO?
What about people who soulstone the skill to get a pet to bond? Just like necro's who have bonded bake kitsune's after stoning animallore and such?
I think the problem lies with the firebreath itself. That's what I keep seeing over and over, is that a firebreath is doing 70+ dmg... why not put a cap on the amount of damage a firebreath does against a player? Make it cap like AI at 35.
I understand the arguement of making pets cast like us players with a casting time, being interrupted... but that could have a major effect in PvM as well. If you're GD is fighting a champion, or a Doom boss, how often is your pet going to be able to cast spells due to being interrupted by getting hit? It might just create a useless magic using pet who has to resort to melee damage because it can't get a spell off.
What about having the spell a pet is about to cast show over it's head? Kinda like UOA powerwords that show the actual spell being cast.
If they fix GD/Dreadmares in PvP... then I DEMAND they fix cast time on Evil Omen. How is that NOT overpowered? You shouldnt be able to cast explosion/fs and get EO off before the latter hits and be able to do 60+ damage. It takes almost no time to cast such a powerful spell.
I believe this tamer nerf should be directed to damage output in PvP for the pets. Not the player.
Then again if you don't know how to survive an attack from a tamer... maybe you shouldn't be PvP'ing...
Why not stop complaining about tamers in PvP and why not ask for more fixes to those CHEATING in PvP by using speed enhancing programs, stump hacks, scripts, ghost cams etc.
Or are you the cheaters who are getting killed by tamers and so you're pissed because you're cheats don't save you all the time and make you godly at UO?
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RichDC
Guest
I was going to say this but then i actually thought for a minute,
Ridgeback/Swamp Dragons require what 99 taming and 0 to bond
As such it wouldnt be that difficult to code in!
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
I would agree with this, as long as the AI for pets would be changed so that they cast useful offensive spells more often, and less Greater Heals and Buffs when they don't need them.
I would have no problems with this either, as long as all other damage from weapons or spells were equally capped.
I agree 100%...and people that are not tamers that bond with their mounts should absolutely have to follow the exact same rules.
What is good for the goose...
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RichDC
Guest
I have to find fault in this...you shouldnt make a person who has no intention of PvPing have to have vet to bond his swamp dragon with 500 Valorite ingots on it...and then what would happen to Grizzled mares and Paroxy dragons??
Disagreeing with you and posting alternative views, does not make me or anyone else a bully. I'm not going to roll over and let a small group of PvPers dictate how the taming profession should be. I happen to care about the taming profession, and I'm sick of hearing tamers cry to maintain these overpowered pets when they're completely unnecessary and when I believe that they do far too much damage.
There was a change to rune beetles when they were deemed overpowered, but it didn't stop players from killing each other did it? Pet balls didn't end the world for PvP tamers either. Even if the GD vanished tomorrow, tamers would still be able to get kills, and if it were my choice, I'd rather lose 1 pet or have it adjusted than worry about a change of template or having all my pets changed. But that's my opinion. Maybe you want to risk more to preserve the GD as it is. I don't.
The bottom line is that I don't agree with your arguments, and yes I've read them. I don't expect you to respond to everything I post either. Just because I haven't quoted and replied to something doesn't mean I didn't read it. It might actually mean that I decided to let someone else take up that bit of the discussion, or that I don't live to post on Uhall.
I have neither attacked you personally, cussed at you or dismissed you. If I had, I wouldn't have a Stratics forum account
I'm not here to offend people, and apologize if I have, but at the same time I'm not here for some popularity contest. Remember, I have tamers too, and they live in Fel. You don't want to get any nerfs you feel are undeserved? Neither do I. Neither of us wants to be a sitting duck target in Fel. But I think some PvP tamers, could be setting us all up for a nerf somewhere else that nobody wants. You want to protect the GD, I think you're risking a kick up the butt somewhere else. Something has to give. I just don't see how it's so hard to just say "ok, put us a few pegs down the damage dealing ranks and let someone else be the target of the nerf brigade". To me, it would be quite refreshing if tamers were able to sit back and watch mages and dexers scream it out on Uhall. Without being the most whined about class in existence.
Wenchy
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Yalp
Guest
What? How dare you assert that all classes should changed equally?!? What are you communist? Aethist? Democrat? Dear god! The mind reels!
This is the "DRAGONS are evil and need to be dissolved into the ether along with TAMERS and those that support TAMERS and those that love TAMERS and those that know TAMERS and those that can spell TAMERS (in pvp)" thread!
I think the vet thing would be best handed if anyone can bond with pets that can be owned with zero or say below 50 taming. Heck even saying if it takes less than 80 taming skill to control the pet, you need the 80 vet too, I think that would stop all the main PvP pets being used without vet. I was going to say 80 min taming, but frenzies are at 77.1 so that kinda fubars my original idea
And something like that would enable training tamers to bond with packs and get a pair of pets if they wanted to spar them to get those vet gains. It would just serve as a cut off for the big guns.I think it would be good if the system was easy to remember, so saying 80 to control = 80 vet to bond would keep it simple. Especially if real skill was used to work out control too, then it would be less likely that a tamer wouldn't have the appropriate skill through normal training. I think the idea needs a bit more work though
Wenchy
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
So how could the game determine who has any intention of PvPing?
If you want to enforce a standard, it needs to be just that...a standard...not a double standard.
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Budweiser
Guest
Greater Dragons really are not the issue. DreadMares are the issue. They seem to cast spells on you after your off screen(weird). You get dissmounted by a bola, mage/tamer teleports with you as you run spamming all kill(or remounts) ei:which can't be done with a greater dragon...Dreads seem to do more spell damage at farther ranges than Greater Dragons.
Nerf Dreads. not the tamers.
Nerf Dreads. not the tamers.
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RichDC
Guest
To be honest...it doesnt need much more work at all it to me is simple:I think the vet thing would be best handed if anyone can bond with pets that can be owned with zero or say below 50 taming. Heck even saying if it takes less than 80 taming skill to control the pet, you need the 80 vet too, I think that would stop all the main PvP pets being used without vet. I was going to say 80 min taming, but frenzies are at 77.1 so that kinda fubars my original idea
I think it would be good if the system was easy to remember, so saying 80 to control = 80 vet to bond would keep it simple. Especially if real skill was used to work out control too, then it would be less likely that a tamer wouldn't have the appropriate skill through normal training. I think the idea needs a bit more work though
Wenchy
All pets that require 80 taming(to bond atm) will require vet to bond
All pets that require 0 taming require 0 vet to bond
The lesser hiryu require Bushido Tactics AND Anat to bond (otherwise the pet does not feel you are of suitable Skill and will not follow you into battle!)
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Why should other classes get the benefit of bonding without the taming, lore, or vet to do so?
I can't cast Enemy of One unless I want to put the point into Chiv.
Seems fair to me.
I can't cast Enemy of One unless I want to put the point into Chiv.
Seems fair to me.
IMO the problem with pets in PvP is defintely the damage output.
Yes you can LEARN to survive from a tamer but you cant LEARN when bad RNGs happen to you (great RNG for the tamer). A bad RNG could be FS, FS Firebreathe. This can be done before you leave the screen and sometimes can be done when you are already 3 screens away. A fully trained GD can kill any player with FS FS Firebreathe. This is assuming you didnt get clawed/bled and the tamer didnt even do jack but put the pet on you.
Realistically, the tamer will either dismount shot you (30ish additional dmg), Bola you(no skill requirement), and or cast on you. If the tamer happen to be a mage he will curse you and now a fire breathe will do upward 80 dmg in 1 shot. Dreadmare being ridable and dish out 40 to 60 in 1 fireball (did I even mention the 3 screen range?) isnt too balanced as well.
Pet should STILL cast like they were but probably not double casting. Give it 2/6 for all I care, 1 spell uninterruptable but force the pet to stand still during casting.
Firebreathe capped at 35 in PvP unless the tamer can cast evil omen himself.
Requiring vet to bond or make it work like death strike requiring Ninja/Stealth/Hiding and if you are missing vet completely, your pet will lose 30% of it's power across the board.
Yes you can LEARN to survive from a tamer but you cant LEARN when bad RNGs happen to you (great RNG for the tamer). A bad RNG could be FS, FS Firebreathe. This can be done before you leave the screen and sometimes can be done when you are already 3 screens away. A fully trained GD can kill any player with FS FS Firebreathe. This is assuming you didnt get clawed/bled and the tamer didnt even do jack but put the pet on you.
Realistically, the tamer will either dismount shot you (30ish additional dmg), Bola you(no skill requirement), and or cast on you. If the tamer happen to be a mage he will curse you and now a fire breathe will do upward 80 dmg in 1 shot. Dreadmare being ridable and dish out 40 to 60 in 1 fireball (did I even mention the 3 screen range?) isnt too balanced as well.
Pet should STILL cast like they were but probably not double casting. Give it 2/6 for all I care, 1 spell uninterruptable but force the pet to stand still during casting.
Firebreathe capped at 35 in PvP unless the tamer can cast evil omen himself.
Requiring vet to bond or make it work like death strike requiring Ninja/Stealth/Hiding and if you are missing vet completely, your pet will lose 30% of it's power across the board.
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Yalp
Guest
So the bushido gets to use the hiryu as a weapon w/o vet requirement, but the tamer can't use their pets as a weapon w/o vet?
Also.. a tamer is required to have vet to use their weapon.. but a dexer does not require smithing to use their weapon? Both skills.."repair" if you will, their weapon for use.
It doesn't sound right to me. How is this not putting restrictions on tamers that other templates are not burdened with?
There's a problem though, a fire bug is a git for a smith to tame without a tamer, as is the swampie for a warrior, due to the skill requirement. The dexer needs a tamer to get the swampie for them, and then to res it. I don't think they'd be used much if they couldn't bond with a warrior. My tamers wouldn't block a stable space with one, and my non tamers just use ethys or horses anyway. If anything, tamers would lose out on the gold selling the odd swampie to a warrior and in being useful on the battlefield to res said swampies too.
I can see where you're coming from, and I personally wouldn't have an issue in not having bonded pets for my non tamers, but I'm really just wanting to see better balance around the use of fighting pets, not get right down to picking on the guy with a fighting chicken
While it makes sense to limit bonding to vet skill players, I don't think a warrior gets an unfair advantage in riding a swampie. Wenchy
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MoonglowMerchant
Guest
Water is wet and the sky is blue.
Just think, if they weren't so busy introducing dyes that could be used to color swamp dragons, and then freaking out because there are colored swamp dragons, and then coding a fix for them we could have a cap on pet damage in PvP.
But no. We aren't in the business of fixing things that are already broken. We are in the business of breaking new things and then fixing those.
Just think, if they weren't so busy introducing dyes that could be used to color swamp dragons, and then freaking out because there are colored swamp dragons, and then coding a fix for them we could have a cap on pet damage in PvP.
But no. We aren't in the business of fixing things that are already broken. We are in the business of breaking new things and then fixing those.
Or maybe bush, anat and healing? And all pretty high.
A sammy needs a tamer to tame the hiryu doesn't he? I'm thinking it would be one thing to say "use unbonded and retame if you need a new one" if they could, but I'm sure you need taming to get those too. If you do, that would support the argument for using skills the sammy is likely to have, rather than cramming vet and lore into their template.
Wenchy
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Turdnugget
Guest
You need 120 REAL bushido in order to have 95% chance to control your lesser hiryu. Even if you're using jewels to get to 120 (fake) then you don't have 95% chance to control. It has to be real skill. Why bring lesser hiryu/bushi user's into this conversation?
How many people actually run that set up?
We're talking bout PvP tamers here... more like the GD/Dreadmare.
I think making Vet needed for bonding would be lame... why not make Vet a part of CONTROL instead? You need both animallore/animal taming in order to control your pet effectively. Add Vet into that equation. MOST PvMing tamers have Vet, otherwise they can't rez their own pets. Now add that into controlling the pet.
Let's say at 110 taming/lore and 80 vet you have 99% chance to control a GD/dreadmare...Now take away 80 vet and you've only got 110 taming/lore and your control chance goes down to 50% or less. That would cause the uber gimp templates to rework things.
So make 80 vet the maximum you NEED in order to control a pet like you would regularly with whatever taming/lore is needed to have a 99% control chance... if that makes sense...
Then we still need to address the pet damage output in PvP. Put a cap on firebreath, I like the idea suggested of making it like a FS with EO+Corpseskin or even capping it at 35 like AI. Limit as to how far it can cast on someone, if the person is on screen when it casts ok, but if they're off screen and it casts a spell it doesn't hit. In combat if you've casted a spell and the person is running the spell WILL catch up to that person as long as they were ON screen when the spell went off.
I do like the idea of pets using more useful spells... I think it'd be great to have a menu of spells you'd like your pet to use... give you more control over your pet.
How many people actually run that set up?
We're talking bout PvP tamers here... more like the GD/Dreadmare.
I think making Vet needed for bonding would be lame... why not make Vet a part of CONTROL instead? You need both animallore/animal taming in order to control your pet effectively. Add Vet into that equation. MOST PvMing tamers have Vet, otherwise they can't rez their own pets. Now add that into controlling the pet.
Let's say at 110 taming/lore and 80 vet you have 99% chance to control a GD/dreadmare...Now take away 80 vet and you've only got 110 taming/lore and your control chance goes down to 50% or less. That would cause the uber gimp templates to rework things.
So make 80 vet the maximum you NEED in order to control a pet like you would regularly with whatever taming/lore is needed to have a 99% control chance... if that makes sense...
Then we still need to address the pet damage output in PvP. Put a cap on firebreath, I like the idea suggested of making it like a FS with EO+Corpseskin or even capping it at 35 like AI. Limit as to how far it can cast on someone, if the person is on screen when it casts ok, but if they're off screen and it casts a spell it doesn't hit. In combat if you've casted a spell and the person is running the spell WILL catch up to that person as long as they were ON screen when the spell went off.
I do like the idea of pets using more useful spells... I think it'd be great to have a menu of spells you'd like your pet to use... give you more control over your pet.
To whoever it was up above that compared maintaining tamer pets to maintaining weapons.....
My weapon doesn't have hundreds of hit points, and my guild can't crowd around and hide behind it in hard PvM areas we probably otherwise couldn't handle...
I'm not even TOUCHING pvp against a tamer with a greater dragon. The combo is not even really balanced compared with other classes in PvM. Let alone PvP, where taking fire from more than one vector is always a disadvantage from the word go.
I think regarding the GD's, a tamer not being able to rezz his/her own pet might be a suitable (but unpopular with tamers of course, though what wouldn't be?) restriction. A typical sight I see in PvM is a group wipe.... 'cept for the tamer. Tamer rezzes pet.... back in action... rest of us ooOOoOoo.
I don't have anything "against tamers", never been ganked by 'em or try to fight them 1 v 1. But I think it's blatantly obvious coming back to the game from a long time away, their utility in most situations is not on par with any other class's. Everyone wants one, everyone is working one, and I think it's not a coincidence. Nor do I think it's a coincidence that it's one of the difficult, most frustrating skills to raise. If taming were no better than just about any other class, why would such a huge number of players be putting up with the horrible skillup of taming? It's counterintuitive to believe people do all that work for no serious advantage. And that so MANY people are doing it.
My weapon doesn't have hundreds of hit points, and my guild can't crowd around and hide behind it in hard PvM areas we probably otherwise couldn't handle...
I'm not even TOUCHING pvp against a tamer with a greater dragon. The combo is not even really balanced compared with other classes in PvM. Let alone PvP, where taking fire from more than one vector is always a disadvantage from the word go.
I think regarding the GD's, a tamer not being able to rezz his/her own pet might be a suitable (but unpopular with tamers of course, though what wouldn't be?) restriction. A typical sight I see in PvM is a group wipe.... 'cept for the tamer. Tamer rezzes pet.... back in action... rest of us ooOOoOoo.
I don't have anything "against tamers", never been ganked by 'em or try to fight them 1 v 1. But I think it's blatantly obvious coming back to the game from a long time away, their utility in most situations is not on par with any other class's. Everyone wants one, everyone is working one, and I think it's not a coincidence. Nor do I think it's a coincidence that it's one of the difficult, most frustrating skills to raise. If taming were no better than just about any other class, why would such a huge number of players be putting up with the horrible skillup of taming? It's counterintuitive to believe people do all that work for no serious advantage. And that so MANY people are doing it.