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PvP Tamers are Overpowered
- Thread starter drinkbeerallday
- Start date
- Watchers 2
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sandersism
Guest
1. There is a template that is rampant on the shard I play on... it's a tamer/archer build. They simply hop off their pet, dismount you, sick their cu sidhe on you (which is NOT a walk speed pet... not even close) then they simply run behind you and their pet alternating paralyze/concussion/running shots while the pet bleeds and hits you.
I'm not going to say it's impossible for that template to be at least avoided (although killing them is nearly impossible 1v1 with pots and faction bandies keeping them alive while they AND their pet rail on you)... but I will say that I should NOT have to alter my template (wrestle/parry mage) in order to fight it. To me... that's the definition of imbalance.
Throw in the fact that if you do manage to redline them, they can hop back on their pet and run away while you're still dismounted quite easily.
I'm not exactly sure what I would nerf... I'll leave that to people smarter than I... but I do think that taming is more a part of the equation than the archer/specials... and I think if you nerf the special moves much you end up nerfing archers in general too severely.
2. Tamers are QUITE powerful in PvM. I'm not really sure how some of you can claim that a nerf would hurt you terribly on your tamer... I play with a tamer/discord/spellweaver and easily do plenty of damage... and I can solo things that not every template can. I've also played a mage tamer and can say the same for that template.
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Canucklehead73
Guest
Hmmm well I'm not much of a PvP tamer but when I take my 4x120 bard to destard I can barely bard the greater dragons, even with a slayer, so I'm not sure how you managed to pull off killing 4 greater dragons with PvPr's running around as well...
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UOKaiser
Guest
No way tamers are not powerful in pvm it's just that every other character being nerfed to death and makes it seem tamers are powerful in pvm. Sampires still stand toe to toe with tamers. And spellweaving eval,inscibe,mages as long as they dont get hit dish out powerful hits. All have there weakness and advantege. Unfortunetly while players get nerfed monsters only grow in strength. Making monsters do 1-2 hit kils on a tamer if they target them adn that is mostly likely whith changelings and other monsters who change targets. A sampire can finaly stand it's ground but many others wanted to nerf them in the name of whatever reason untill they finaly did untill they can find another reason to nerf them again and sampires turn around and try to get tamers there greatest comp nerf in pvm. Nerfing is not the answer no one ever wins in this constant nerf fight.
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sandersism
Guest
So you're saying that tamers appear powerful because other templates have been nerfed... isn't that the same as saying tamers are powerful in PvM?
The fact remains that I can do almost anything with my tamer/discord/spellweaving template, and there are very few templates that DO NOT include taming that can do the same.
Disagree?
If you truly thought your tamers should be removed from PvP, then you wouldn't be PvPing with your tamer.... If it's so bad, surely you'd delete the characters and join the ranks of PvPers who hate tamers. Nobody is forcing you to use overpowered pets or kill anybody in 3 seconds. So quit with the self-hate stuff. It doesn't wash.
Refrain from using your dread mares and suggest workable solutions to the problems if you want to help. But to spout nonsense like remove tamers from PvP is as useful as a chocolate fireguard. My tamers only use pets for self defense, but given the number of PvPers who still like to start those fights, I hardly think PvPers are that scared of tamers. And if someone starts a fight with me, I'm not playing sitting duck. You're damn right I'll fight back, pets included. I don't find players fight without their 4 buddies when they meet me either, oddly enough - no concerns for how much me and my normal mare have to fight against lol
Maybe we should prevent players from being able to gank each other, so those PvPers who're worried about tamers don't have to deal with setups where more than one player attacks at a time either.Wenchy
- Awards
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lol That's hysterical.
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Stupid Miner
Guest
tamed pets are weaker than wild ones. easier to disco.Hmmm well I'm not much of a PvP tamer but when I take my 4x120 bard to destard I can barely bard the greater dragons, even with a slayer, so I'm not sure how you managed to pull off killing 4 greater dragons with PvPr's running around as well...
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Old Man of UO
Guest
Okay... put a few more periods in what you just said and I'll agree with most of it! Constant nerfing of every skill is only encouraging people to quit in frustration. Balance skills and templates with incentives, not by making them useless, i.e. poisoning (insert your favorite skill here) for PvM. My sampire does more damage on all high end monsters than my tamer can, and so does my archer. All I am saying, when balancing for PvP you also have to consider the other +90% of the players.
Balancing templates does not mean that any one template can kill any other. Rather, it should be a paper- scissors- rock type of balancing.
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sandersism
Guest
Poisoning is not useless for PvM, it simply depends on what type of PvM you are engaging in. I find it to be one of the more useful spawning skills.
Instead of actually arguing with what I said you simply switched over to claiming that constant nerfing is the problem so taming shouldn't be nerfed. (I would argue that the nerfs are only there to counter the additions to the game... so it's a give and take... they add things that overpower certain aspects of the game and then they nerf to try and get back to center. I would also say that the "constant nerfing" is far from the main reason that people are quitting UO in frustration... that's quite an exaggeration.)
You claim that your sampire and archer both do more damage than your tamer in PvM. Congratulations... I'm not sure how that has anything to do with whether or not tamer's would still be strong PvM wise even with a nerf.
You could claim that taming won't be the "strongest", but there is no way you can argue that taming wouldn't still be a viable and necessary PvM skill (even with a nerf), nor do I see any way that you can argue that taming is not currently one of the best PvM template additions.
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Sounds to me like you would be better off playing Tekken or Street Fighter if button mashing is your bag.
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Lord GOD(GOD)
Guest
They always have been.
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Helmgar
Guest
I play a mage and warrior, and I don't really see how pets are overpowered, unless you are attempting to fight them head on. Even on foot you can easily get away from pets. Not only that, both sides of the fight can have tamers, and both sides can have discordes and peacers.
Just give Greater Dragons (cursed) tags. They can't bond. Problem solved.
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
I could live with that...as long as they don't take up any control slots.
Heeeeey, now THAT is a unique and probable idea, I like itJust give Greater Dragons (cursed) tags. They can't bond. Problem solved.
That would make most tamers think twice before bringing them to the field. It gets killed, no more greater dragon to use until another is tamed.
Big kudos to the great idea :tumbsup:
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Sweeney
Guest
*waits for an idea that hasn't been posted before*
**pin drops** waiting for the devs to respond.
**pin drops** waiting for the devs to respond.
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Sweeney
Guest
Maybe I should start a new thread on old ideas.. thanks DBAD
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Yalp
Guest
Interesting....I would wonder.... how do you make the equivalent changes to a melee weapon and their meleer or a bow and their archer? So you limit the tamer and pet to a weaker set of resist and stats.. but 3, 4, 5 players.. all maxed stats and skills get to gank the weaker one (how bloody pathetic) .. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize the folly of that idea.
Tamers should get like 820 skill points because Taming is hard and stuff.
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archite666
Guest
Praise you sir! This is the best thing I have ever heard.
Bless you!
Seriously tamers in pvp are outragous, beetles, mares and greater dragons are overpowered.
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Yalp
Guest
Gotta protect the HOLY ability to gank... No? Same people who scream that "it's FEL.. risk v. reward! Walk through the moongate run the risk of getting jumped, don't like it don't go!" are the same peeps who scream.. "Tamers and pets are overpowered.. nerf nerf nerf!" There are a number of changes needed on the pvp side to make it better for everyone. None of which are pain-free to everyone.
How about an actual review of how many tamers/pet combo's engage in pvp? How about a census of which templates are dominating pvp? I can offer an opinion, so can everyone here.. but neither would be fact.
Thank you for admitting that playing an archer or tamer requires ZERO skill.
I've decided to just let her keep digging. She's made like 40 posts on the issue I'm curious to see if we can get her to 100.
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
The level of whinning from you two is astounding.
Keep it up! This is fun!
Keep it up! This is fun!
You are the one whining. We are trying to have a thoughtful discussion about PvP balance and you are just crying about your overpowered tamer getting nerfed.
You say I'm whining?????????
That's BS, you're the one who has spent the last 3 days whining about the fact that your poor little tamer char can barely kill a mongbat and how the Devs better not adjust tamers to be more in line with other classes.
That's BS, you're the one who has spent the last 3 days whining about the fact that your poor little tamer char can barely kill a mongbat and how the Devs better not adjust tamers to be more in line with other classes.
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
I haven't started a single thread on this subject...and don't plan to.
If you go back and look, Drinkbeer has started two threads...pretty much on the same topic.
In summary...the argument you two put up is:
"I cannot fight people unless they are at a disadvantage, so I want anyone stronger than me either removed from the game, banned, barred, or nerfed so I can compete."
Tamers are not that hard to kill. The pets are slow, and stupid.
But apparently not as slow and stupid as certain players.
If you go back and look, Drinkbeer has started two threads...pretty much on the same topic.
In summary...the argument you two put up is:
"I cannot fight people unless they are at a disadvantage, so I want anyone stronger than me either removed from the game, banned, barred, or nerfed so I can compete."
Tamers are not that hard to kill. The pets are slow, and stupid.
But apparently not as slow and stupid as certain players.
C
Connor_Graham
Guest
That still doesn't change the fact that they do more damage with a single attack than they should be able to in PvP. Damage in PvP is capped for a reason, which the 2 pets in question go well over. It needs to be adjusted. Anyone that isn't biased on the matter can see that plain as day, whether they PvP or not.
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
I agree.
I posted in another thread that I thought all damage in PvP should be capped equally.
But that is apparently not enough for some people. They want superiority, not balance.
I don't care about superiority, inferiority, etc. but superiority should come with a price, don't you think?
Namely for example shadow strike. You have to invest a lot of points into it in order to POTENTIALLY get a lot of damage. That is the key word...potentially. i.e. Putting some points into tracking in order to get more output.
So why not do the same thing with tamers?
I know it's probably a mute idea since really capping pet damage would be the best thing.
I aside from the damage aspect don't find that many problems with pets. They are for the most part just a minor hindrance.
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
The problem with pets in PvP for non-tamers is the damage they dish out on the first hit. A Greater can normally drop a player before the player can react if they didn't know it was coming. But if the player sees you coming with the Greater, and they are smart, they can make it hard for you to get the pet on them long enough to have one of the 2-4 other reds they gank with to drop you long before you ever do any damage to them. It comes down to who gets the drop on whom.
If I were on the receiving end of that, I would probably be complaining as well...but notice that none of the people complaining about pets say one word when they gank someone 3-1 or 4-1. Not a word. That's "kewl" and "l337", but it chaps their arse when my Greater evens the odds a little.
No pleasing everyone I guess. But what do I know, I am just a "n00b" or "troll" because I disagree with a few of the "uber dewds" here.
If I were on the receiving end of that, I would probably be complaining as well...but notice that none of the people complaining about pets say one word when they gank someone 3-1 or 4-1. Not a word. That's "kewl" and "l337", but it chaps their arse when my Greater evens the odds a little.
No pleasing everyone I guess. But what do I know, I am just a "n00b" or "troll" because I disagree with a few of the "uber dewds" here.
I can see your points as being valid. I can also see from their point of view as well. In my opinion though, you choose your poison. If you are VERY offensively minded...which most PvP'ers seem to be, then yes...you'll pretty much die in a hit.
From my personal experience in PvP'ing and dealing with people like that, a tamer using a "toned" down Greater Dragon wouldn't make any difference. They would still pretty much die in one hit. After all, 60 HP will basically = 2/3 of their life.
But, would it be so bad if tamers weren't doing top damage in PvP? If they had to actually use skill, tactics and determination to win? Just think about it... if someone got killed by a tamer, instead of them being here and able to cry " tamers are overpowered" and get a nod from the crowd, he'd get ridiculed and sent packing. Imagine, being a tamer and being respected because you'd overcome your opponent, instead of treated like the lamest of the lame. Well... I can dream.
I don't know about you, but for me taming has never been, and never will be, about how fast I can drop a player or mob. It sadens me to think that tamers are so determined to maintain their power. I'm not directing that at you personally, it's just that tamers seem increasingly preoccupied with having the biggest guns. And expecting that the "it takes ages to train" line holds water while there are advanced character tokens and skill items on the go.
You're saying that you think others want superiority instead of balance, yet the same can be argued for tamers who don't want their templates brought into line with others. If you want to maintain a superior damage output, what makes you so different from the posters you point the finger at?
I'd suggest balance be dished out in several ways:
1. ensuring pets can't bond (and won't remain bonded) if the tamer lacks vet/lore skills to res them.
2. Remove all skill + items relating to the taming skills from the game, so that real skill is required right across the board by tamers.
3. Then ensure that during a PvP battle, a tamer can't log out to save their pet, that there is a system to protect tamers from real emergencies like a nuked connection, but to prevent its use as a "tactic".
4. Balancing passes on pets, GDs in particular.
5. Electrocution of tamers who say "all kill" whilst too close to Yew moongate.
Ok, #5 isn't entirely serious, but there are some guardzone huggers who deserve a few hundred volts for not keeping their dangerous pets under control
Wenchy
I don't know about you, but for me taming has never been, and never will be, about how fast I can drop a player or mob. It sadens me to think that tamers are so determined to maintain their power. I'm not directing that at you personally, it's just that tamers seem increasingly preoccupied with having the biggest guns. And expecting that the "it takes ages to train" line holds water while there are advanced character tokens and skill items on the go.
You're saying that you think others want superiority instead of balance, yet the same can be argued for tamers who don't want their templates brought into line with others. If you want to maintain a superior damage output, what makes you so different from the posters you point the finger at?
I'd suggest balance be dished out in several ways:
1. ensuring pets can't bond (and won't remain bonded) if the tamer lacks vet/lore skills to res them.
2. Remove all skill + items relating to the taming skills from the game, so that real skill is required right across the board by tamers.
3. Then ensure that during a PvP battle, a tamer can't log out to save their pet, that there is a system to protect tamers from real emergencies like a nuked connection, but to prevent its use as a "tactic".
4. Balancing passes on pets, GDs in particular.
5. Electrocution of tamers who say "all kill" whilst too close to Yew moongate.
Ok, #5 isn't entirely serious, but there are some guardzone huggers who deserve a few hundred volts for not keeping their dangerous pets under control
Wenchy
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
I will post again...since apparently it was missed...again.
I have NO issue with damaged being cap for pets vs. players...as long as it is a two way street. PvP fights in UO these days are often too short anyway.
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
I agree 100%. If Sampires drop out of form when removing jewels, why is the same not enforced for tamers? If a pet is bonded, the skill removed either through jewel removal, soul stone, or atrophy...the pet should not remain bonded. Period. Good idea!
I agree 100% again. But I would go a step further...I'd like to see all +skill items removed from the game...forever.
I agree with this too, as long as skill loss for pets in PvP is removed as well.
I would agree on that as well. Damage needs to be capped for everyone, pets included.
I think if a tamer issues an attack command, and then moves into guard zone, the pet should be guard whacked...and there should be skill loss, because the pet was not killed by a player.5. Electrocution of tamers who say "all kill" whilst too close to Yew moongate.
Ok, #5 isn't entirely serious, but there are some guardzone huggers who deserve a few hundred volts for not keeping their dangerous pets under control
Wenchy
Seems everyone agreed that the pets in PvP dishes out way too much damage and way too quickly. To add fuel into fire, there's a very easy way to make pets not casting "buff" spells at all. For the people who dont know, if a pet dont cast buffs on itself it will go all out offensive. All out offensive means the second you issue "all kill" command the pets will start casting all kinds of offensive spells. If the RNG goes right, you will have a chance to see the infamous "instant" double flame strike w/ fire breathe.
All ranged spells aside, there's always a chance you get that instant melee hit and gets bled all in one shot, and THEN all pets damage aside, an offensive PvP tamer will also be casting explosion flame strike and/or dismount shot/bola then moving shot all these while the pet(s) is still chasing you casting on the run nonstop. All in all, an offensive PvP tamer and dish out well over 200 damage in just a few second with little luck on the RNG. And in case you dont know, players are nothing like the mobs you kill with 100000 hit point. They only have 100ish.
Pets are stupid, but as I mentioned the players whos controlling it isnt.(well hopefully). The problem isnt some pvp trammie tamer trying to kill, the problem would be an experienced PvPer who know wtf they are doing and use their instant kill weapon flawlessly. With the right template you can even command a GD while running at mounted speed. Also even tho pets are stupid, their casting mechnism is superior than a player controlled character. All mobs/pets in UO can cast on the run and cast two(2) spell at a time. This is why double flame strike is only possible when a mob/pet is casting them.
Go to ATL, PAC, BAJA and any shard that has active PvP. When the tamer is protected by other players a GD or two can push thru a defensive line formed by many players. Many guilds are FORCED into using tamers to fight against tamers. Bards while very useful, they dont presume a threat to everyone else. Heck they cant even provoke the pet onto it's owner or other players.
Rock-Paper-Scissors here goes like this.
Tamers is effective against EVERYONE and weak on bards.
Bards is effective against tamer and is nearly free insurance dispensor to EVERYONE. AND a discorded GD/Dread can still take out a player easy (just not as INSTANT).
The only counter to tamer cant kill jack. The tamer can kill everything but can still stand on higher ground against a bard 1v1. You really dont see the problem? Why is there way more offensive templates then the templates with Tracking/Detect/Music/Peace/Provoke/Discord? The answer is easy, these templates can only be effective against that ONE TYPE of enemy(and become a free kill for others) while that ONE TYPE of enemy is effective against EVERYTHING ELSE.
All ranged spells aside, there's always a chance you get that instant melee hit and gets bled all in one shot, and THEN all pets damage aside, an offensive PvP tamer will also be casting explosion flame strike and/or dismount shot/bola then moving shot all these while the pet(s) is still chasing you casting on the run nonstop. All in all, an offensive PvP tamer and dish out well over 200 damage in just a few second with little luck on the RNG. And in case you dont know, players are nothing like the mobs you kill with 100000 hit point. They only have 100ish.
Pets are stupid, but as I mentioned the players whos controlling it isnt.(well hopefully). The problem isnt some pvp trammie tamer trying to kill, the problem would be an experienced PvPer who know wtf they are doing and use their instant kill weapon flawlessly. With the right template you can even command a GD while running at mounted speed. Also even tho pets are stupid, their casting mechnism is superior than a player controlled character. All mobs/pets in UO can cast on the run and cast two(2) spell at a time. This is why double flame strike is only possible when a mob/pet is casting them.
Go to ATL, PAC, BAJA and any shard that has active PvP. When the tamer is protected by other players a GD or two can push thru a defensive line formed by many players. Many guilds are FORCED into using tamers to fight against tamers. Bards while very useful, they dont presume a threat to everyone else. Heck they cant even provoke the pet onto it's owner or other players.
Rock-Paper-Scissors here goes like this.
Tamers is effective against EVERYONE and weak on bards.
Bards is effective against tamer and is nearly free insurance dispensor to EVERYONE. AND a discorded GD/Dread can still take out a player easy (just not as INSTANT).
The only counter to tamer cant kill jack. The tamer can kill everything but can still stand on higher ground against a bard 1v1. You really dont see the problem? Why is there way more offensive templates then the templates with Tracking/Detect/Music/Peace/Provoke/Discord? The answer is easy, these templates can only be effective against that ONE TYPE of enemy(and become a free kill for others) while that ONE TYPE of enemy is effective against EVERYTHING ELSE.
you expect even odds 4v1?
how do you expect people to take you seriously when you post stuff like this?
I don't want to make everyone happy, I want balance, you want your grossly overpowered pets to stay that way.
you are a troll because you are living in these threads until they die repeating your argument over and over and over again, yet each time you change your reasoning for the argument. you are just throwing crap around trying to get something to stick. and half of it is lies and falsehoods.
PvP tamers are overpowered.
What they need to do is fix the Log Out/Log In/Pet Ball problem and then see what happens before doing anything else.
Nope, I didn't miss it. Capping damage would still leave packs, or groups of pets, and their tamers on top. Though they don't do too much per hit individually, packs do a heck of a lot all together. Any pair or group of pets would dump damage faster than a single player could. That would work past a damage cap, so tamers would have the upper hand. Especially as quite a few PvP tamers do damage themselves on top of that dealt out by their pets.
Think about it in these terms, you've got pets who cast and melee, packs, different swing speeds on different pets, mana pools of varying sizes, some with stacks of hps. That's just for balancing tamer pets, not other classes
How would you cap a player's damage if they attack the pet you attack them with? Do they do full PvM damage or PvP damage? The former may be seen as unfair as you can't hurt the player as they're hurting your pet. If it was the latter, a GD is still a royal pain in the backside as it'll take ages to kill, all the time attacking the tamer's enemy.
How would you cap a pair of kitsune who cast and melee together with their tamer owner doing damage too? Without making those pets individually a lot weaker? Would you end up with some modifier that reduced the individual damage dealt by each pet whenever you grouped it up with another? What if 1 dies? I hope you see from the above that a damage cap is straightforward in theory, but in practice it could throw a lot of spanners in the works. Which is why I suggest other balances should be tried first, including pet balancing. I don't think level capping is really achievable in UO. If it was that easy, EA would have done it that way from the very beginning.
Wenchy
I always felt bonding should be restricted to tamers and I like the real skill idea a lot. I don't like the concept of +skill on items in general. Your point is you should need Taming, Lore, and Vet to be able to bond high end pets, I agree with that.
I also think we should be able to see the power words of a tamed pet.
NO. Out of the question.
Your reasoning behind this in the other thread was ridiculous.
There is only so many pets a tamer can control. A damage cap would be a good idea. If you are going to use multiple pets which can actually his that cap you would have to sacrifice your mount. The main complaint against tamers are the greater dragons. A damage cap would be a solution to the dragons attack damage which everyone complains about.
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Black Spirit
Guest
I dont know your problem. I have killed many tamers in Fel without dieing with my archer chars.
I also have tamers and they have fun in fel spawns, to bad if someone wants to come steal my spawn.
Learn to use your chars properly and stop complaining.
Its obvious you want to nerf any player based template thats better than yours, so your can be master over everyone else.
All i can say is stop complaining at let the real players play the game.
I also have tamers and they have fun in fel spawns, to bad if someone wants to come steal my spawn.
Learn to use your chars properly and stop complaining.
Its obvious you want to nerf any player based template thats better than yours, so your can be master over everyone else.
All i can say is stop complaining at let the real players play the game.
I think all archers should be deleted. Starting with yours.
If you read the para I posted after the one you're replying to, you'll see why I don't think it would work as easily as first suggested. A mount sacrifice has never bothered me, I stay with my pets when we fight, always have. There would need to be a fix for ninja form tamers if you wanted to stop the mount speed issues though. Ninja tamers are far more of an issue than a stealth herder like me *wink*
The only advantage I can see is that my flock of killer sheep would be doing as much damage as a GD in PvP. Death by shepherd.... *gets an evil glint in her eye* Now if only GM herding gave me a flock bonus
Wenchy
220 skill gives you greater dragon with near 100% control. These things are VERY powerful, to the point that people have to carry around dragon slayers to pvp. NOW THEN, that leaves the character controlling the dragon possibly 480-500 points left (depending on account age), enough points to be pretty potent.
There is no other 220 point investment that can provide the kind of firepower that greaters offer. Nothing even close.
Drop the pvp damage from pets to 25 still leaves them a threat but stops them from being stupid with the 35 damage claw rake vs max resists and the off screen double casting as you try to get away.
Show some objectivity guy. I'm a tamer too, I have been for 10+ years, and I will be first in line to sign the paper to see greaters nerfed in pvp.
And on siege, if they got deleted altogether, I wouldn't loose a wink of sleep.
Yeah, I'm guilty of not reading the entire post.If you read the para I posted after the one you're replying to, you'll see why I don't think it would work as easily as first suggested. A mount sacrifice has never bothered me, I stay with my pets when we fight, always have. There would need to be a fix for ninja form tamers if you wanted to stop the mount speed issues though. Ninja tamers are far more of an issue than a stealth herder like me *wink*
The only advantage I can see is that my flock of killer sheep would be doing as much damage as a GD in PvP. Death by shepherd.... *gets an evil glint in her eye* Now if only GM herding gave me a flock bonus
Wenchy
But a flock of killer sheep...now that would be a site to see, lol.
But I do agree that a damage cap wouldn't be a very good fix. It might work for the greater dragon complaint, but then people might start demanding damage cap for players in PvP.
But the Dev's did state they were looking for a good way to fix greater dragons in PvP. I do have faith they will fix it well. And I know they wont implement any of the ridiculous suggestions posted by people in the hundreds of tamer complaining threads.