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Is ONE Siege Blessed Item enough?

Ezekiel Zane

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What do you think?

Should it be left alone or is there interest in asking for it to be increased?
 

Freelsy

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This has been requested many times and shot down by the "community." I believe there was a discussion on it within the last 6 months. It was either here or over on the uoforums. I believe it was a 40/60 split or something like that. Ultimately, those in the community feel it would be better off to maintain the one Siege blessing. The good thing is that the devs are willing to make changes unique to Siege... we just need a unified voice.
 

Ezekiel Zane

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I bet if it was increased to say, two, the people who want it to remain one will get used to it.
 

kelmo

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The "one" Siege blessed situation was brought about by the unbalanced situation created by the personally blessed item deed. Remember those? Each account (or character, don't remember) was given a one time deed that was an on-demand bless deed. Players either had one or they did not. The Siege bless came about to even the field. All the personal blees deeds were converted to deco only. Siege bless is working as intended and needs no further dev time.

If you want insurance or total conversion to a Trammel set of rules, debate that.
 

Ezekiel Zane

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Except for the fact that it's not working as intended. If it was then no player could have more than one blessed item with mods on it which simply isn't the case is it?

I remember and I know exactly why the Siege Bless was introduced. The fact is though that the exact same situation exists again. You've allowed certain blessed items, that are no longer obtainable, onto the shard and new players or players that missed out on those items are again at a disadvantage. The same disadvantage that you admit was settled with eliminating the PBDs and implementing the Siege Bless.
 

Victim of Siege

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This has been requested many times and shot down by the "community." I believe there was a discussion on it within the last 6 months. It was either here or over on the uoforums. I believe it was a 40/60 split or something like that. Ultimately, those in the community feel it would be better off to maintain the one Siege blessing. The good thing is that the devs are willing to make changes unique to Siege... we just need a unified voice.
The discussion that was on the official Forums was whether or not to add VvV arties to the shard. Then there was Bo's Siege improvement thread in January 2018. both of these subjects come up a couple of times a year, with mostly the same results.
 

Max Blackoak

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The "one" Siege blessed situation was brought about by the unbalanced situation created by the personally blessed item deed. Remember those? Each account (or character, don't remember) was given a one time deed that was an on-demand bless deed. Players either had one or they did not. The Siege bless came about to even the field. All the personal blees deeds were converted to deco only. Siege bless is working as intended and needs no further dev time.

If you want insurance or total conversion to a Trammel set of rules, debate that.
I wouldn't mind having a second Siege bless and wouldn't exactly see that as trammelization of Siege but I don't see it as necessary because I know how to build my templates and suits etc around only one blessed item.

Since you mentioned it though, let's talk about trammel-esque features that made it to Siege when they should never have. I have a whole list of those:

Sacrifice virtue selfreses - used to be you die, you're dead, you loose your stuff - now you hit a button to make death mostly irrelevant.

Instanced and semi-instanced encounters that allow people to farm in complete or near complete safety - used to be where you had to be ready to fight at all times when out farming. Now you get to farm in SG for example where noone can reach you, not even when you get out of the rooms because you can't even field up the drop in spot because it's buggy terrain and all they need to do is party up before they get booted and have the party leader make it to the crystal to teleport everyone into the orchard so they can stuck call out. Or take other peeless encounters that are inaccessable while someone is inside. Even the one that is theoretically accessable (Exodus) will not be raided because once Exodus is down to 60 % you can't enter and there's even a moongate in there taking you directly to guardzone if you wish so. And even if people realized that someone was in there they have to have a set of keys ready which is near impossible because these keys decay after 6 days.

The abuse of stuck call mechanics - at least they made it so powerscrolls and statscrolls drop to the ground when stuck calling. Doesn't apply to anything else in the backpack though.

Blessed items with mods on them - the original invasion books, the more recent invasion books with slayer or fc1, tome of lost knowledge, lucky necklace etc.

Stealth being overpowered - the passive detect thing is one aspect but what's even worse is how detect and tracking are supposed to be able to counter hiding and stealth. The reality is they don't because tracking is completely broken and both skills only train to 100 while stealth trains to 120, can be beefed up by the ninjitsu mastery shadow and other means that make it even harder to track someone let alone detect which usually means they simply hide again after taking a few steps.

There is probably a lot to add to this list. I would really liked to see all of this reworked so it will fit the whole "Siege is the hardcore UO shard" idea but with the limited resources the devs have and their lack of doing anything to Siege without having everyone and their mother agree to a certain change all I can do is dream.
 

kelmo

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I was anti soul stone, remember?
 

Victim of Siege

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I'm pretty loose on these subjects, my personal preference would be to have VvV arties and 1-2 more blesses. But I will not be upset if they don't get added. maybe it's time to do another poll.
 

kelmo

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I'm pretty loose on these subjects, my personal preference would be to have VvV arties and 1-2 more blesses. But I will not be upset if they don't get added. maybe it's time to do another poll.
Let's take a poll on the poll...
 

Freelsy

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The "one" Siege blessed situation was brought about by the unbalanced situation created by the personally blessed item deed. Remember those? Each account (or character, don't remember) was given a one time deed that was an on-demand bless deed. Players either had one or they did not. The Siege bless came about to even the field. All the personal blees deeds were converted to deco only. Siege bless is working as intended and needs no further dev time.

If you want insurance or total conversion to a Trammel set of rules, debate that.
There's your "community" @Ezekiel Kain . Can't be bothered to make any adjustment to Siege.
 

kelmo

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I am not saying that at all Freelsy. I just said Siege Bless is working as intended. If you want more... well, ask for it.
 

Freelsy

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I am not saying that at all Freelsy. I just said Siege Bless is working as intended. If you want more... well, ask for it.
You know we've asked for it and other changes many times. Changes that benefit everyone, not just one set of players. There are a certain set of players from a particular guild that will never compromise to move Siege forward.
 

Suri

Visitor
The "one" Siege blessed situation was brought about by the unbalanced situation created by the personally blessed item deed. Remember those? Each account (or character, don't remember) was given a one time deed that was an on-demand bless deed. Players either had one or they did not. The Siege bless came about to even the field. All the personal blees deeds were converted to deco only. Siege bless is working as intended and needs no further dev time.

If you want insurance or total conversion to a Trammel set of rules, debate that.
Don't even debate it, they can go play prodo.
 

Ezekiel Zane

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So @kelmo , explain to us this. If a bunch of players have two or three powerful blessed items and everyone else has just one, how exactly is Siege Bless "working as intended?"



When it was implemented it was "intended" that every player should have just the "one" blessed item. That is no longer the reality on Siege.
 

Suri

Visitor
I wouldn't mind having a second Siege bless and wouldn't exactly see that as trammelization of Siege but I don't see it as necessary because I know how to build my templates and suits etc around only one blessed item.

Since you mentioned it though, let's talk about trammel-esque features that made it to Siege when they should never have. I have a whole list of those:

Sacrifice virtue selfreses - used to be you die, you're dead, you loose your stuff - now you hit a button to make death mostly irrelevant.

Instanced and semi-instanced encounters that allow people to farm in complete or near complete safety - used to be where you had to be ready to fight at all times when out farming. Now you get to farm in SG for example where noone can reach you, not even when you get out of the rooms because you can't even field up the drop in spot because it's buggy terrain and all they need to do is party up before they get booted and have the party leader make it to the crystal to teleport everyone into the orchard so they can stuck call out. Or take other peeless encounters that are inaccessable while someone is inside. Even the one that is theoretically accessable (Exodus) will not be raided because once Exodus is down to 60 % you can't enter and there's even a moongate in there taking you directly to guardzone if you wish so. And even if people realized that someone was in there they have to have a set of keys ready which is near impossible because these keys decay after 6 days.

The abuse of stuck call mechanics - at least they made it so powerscrolls and statscrolls drop to the ground when stuck calling. Doesn't apply to anything else in the backpack though.

Blessed items with mods on them - the original invasion books, the more recent invasion books with slayer or fc1, tome of lost knowledge, lucky necklace etc.

Stealth being overpowered - the passive detect thing is one aspect but what's even worse is how detect and tracking are supposed to be able to counter hiding and stealth. The reality is they don't because tracking is completely broken and both skills only train to 100 while stealth trains to 120, can be beefed up by the ninjitsu mastery shadow and other means that make it even harder to track someone let alone detect which usually means they simply hide again after taking a few steps.

There is probably a lot to add to this list. I would really liked to see all of this reworked so it will fit the whole "Siege is the hardcore UO shard" idea but with the limited resources the devs have and their lack of doing anything to Siege without having everyone and their mother agree to a certain change all I can do is dream.
I agree with those spell books, the blessings need to be removed.

Tracking is pretty much worthless. Even if you track someone via the gump they can still walk off screen before you select them and it renders it useless.

I don't like passive detect, but I think in fairness of the skill, GM detect should be allowed the passive.
 

GarthGrey

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Here's the truth of it since no one else will say it. A discussion will take place once again, and the fate of the shard will be determined again by players that spend more of their time on production shards than they do here. Nothing will change. This is not just a beaten dead horse, it's a stinking rotten dead horse.
 

Lord Frodo

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So @kelmo , explain to us this. If a bunch of players have two or three powerful blessed items and everyone else has just one, how exactly is Siege Bless "working as intended?"



When it was implemented it was "intended" that every player should have just the "one" blessed item. That is no longer the reality on Siege.
What items do you keep screaming about or is everybody suppose to guess. If you have a specific problem then why don't you just state it flat out.
 

Freelsy

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it's been stated time and time again by both active Siege players and those that want to try Siege. The current itemization of UO and Siege's outdated model are not compatible. Siege was born in a time when a vanq was the pinnacle of weapon perfection. That is no longer the case. There are so many great and rare items that will forever remain in chests because they're too valuable to lose and look better locked down.... and I don't blame people for locking them down! I don't use some REALLY REALLY nice pieces of armor I have because my ring is integral to my template. I cannot part with it.

Increasing the bless count to 3 or 4 will open up so many template options for those seeking to min/max their characters. It will encourage guilds to hunt more frequently to acquire rare items to sell to players like me. It will drive industry on the shard, and bring people here!

It just baffles my mind the amount of people that are opposed to such a change
 

TheDrAJ

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What are these "players have two or three powerful blessed items"?
Is this the just the spellbooks?
Is there any other powerful blessed items?
 

Eärendil

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it's been stated time and time again by both active Siege players and those that want to try Siege. The current itemization of UO and Siege's outdated model are not compatible. Siege was born in a time when a vanq was the pinnacle of weapon perfection. That is no longer the case. There are so many great and rare items that will forever remain in chests because they're too valuable to lose and look better locked down.... and I don't blame people for locking them down! I don't use some REALLY REALLY nice pieces of armor I have because my ring is integral to my template. I cannot part with it.

Increasing the bless count to 3 or 4 will open up so many template options for those seeking to min/max their characters. It will encourage guilds to hunt more frequently to acquire rare items to sell to players like me. It will drive industry on the shard, and bring people here!

It just baffles my mind the amount of people that are opposed to such a change
IMHO, Freelsy is right. 2 or 3 blessed items would be nice.
 

Eärendil

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I agree with those spell books, the blessings need to be removed.

Tracking is pretty much worthless. Even if you track someone via the gump they can still walk off screen before you select them and it renders it useless.

I don't like passive detect, but I think in fairness of the skill, GM detect should be allowed the passive.
No, the blessed spellbooks are awesome. They need to stay, just as the others (e.g. Shadowguard, Khaldun) should have been blessed, too.
 

Eärendil

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You know we've asked for it and other changes many times. Changes that benefit everyone, not just one set of players. There are a certain set of players from a particular guild that will never compromise to move Siege forward.
Who are these certain players from a certain guild, you are alluding to?

I can see many players wanting more blessed items, just like you do. :)
 

Eärendil

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And if VvV Arties could be sold and used by players not doing VvV, I would be happy, if they could be added.

However, there are many other ideas in this thread, which are just horrible. Gladly, they will never being implemented...
 

Max Blackoak

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No, the blessed spellbooks are awesome. They need to stay, just as the others (e.g. Shadowguard, Khaldun) should have been blessed, too.
and you don't see how this is a double imbalance?
On the one hand it is an imbalance between people who were here when these books dropped and people who weren't.
On the other hand it's an imbalance between casters and dexxers who have no blessed items with relevant mods available.
 

Max Blackoak

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And if VvV Arties could be sold and used by players not doing VvV, I would be happy, if they could be added.
While I don't believe VvV arties need to be introduced on Siege, if they are they shouldn't be account bound. However, I am strongly against non-VvV players being able to use them. If you want to use them you'll have to join VvV and be freely attackable at all times by other VvV players. Otherwise everyone would just set up their stealth thieves to be in VvV and farm the cities during off hours stealing sigils and taking altars to get all their non-VvV characters equiped with VvV items without any of the disadvantages and risks VvV comes with.

However, there are many other ideas in this thread, which are just horrible. Gladly, they will never being implemented...
Horrible to you because you wish to keep safezones for farming on Siege that should have never been introduced here in the first place. It would however be completely in the original spirit of Siege where there are no trammelesque safe zones for anything other than guardzones.
 

Tanager

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I use a blessed event spellbook. In my opinion, this is an unfair advantage over other templates that do not have any blessed weapons, music instruments, etc. I love this book, with its blessing, and I will use it for as long as it is blessed. However, in my opinion, it ought not to be.

I also wear a blessed Lucky Necklace. I typically use my Siege Bless on an Armor of Fortune. Paired with the book and the necklace, I have 400 luck (plus 700 from statue), 50% LRC, 5MR (I use 2MR city buff), and 42% SDI. My resists are 40 across the board from skill. Certainly not uber, but I can farm just about anything wearing JUST those items by using spellweaving, chivalry, and stealth. All completely risk free. Unlootable. Anything else I add just makes my life easier.

Both the book and the necklace can no longer be obtained. I have an unfair advantage over any new player. If they added more Siege Blessings, I would simply have an even greater unfair advantage and it would not effectively fix the imbalance.

Ways to make it more fair would be to 1) unbless ALL equipable items with mods or 2) add more blessed items that are comparable to the ones in existence and spread out for ALL templates. The first option is the only realistic one, and I can understand why that notion continually gets shot down. They are basically PvM gear, and the vast majority of the population are, in fact, not PvPers. Not only that, but the Lucky Necklace, with its blessing, was awarded to players for actual money spent on this game. Changing the terms of the sale after the fact is... ill advised.

And let us not forget that when they added the Siege Bless to fix the imbalance at that time, they also tripped the CBDs from any gear with mods. They removed the blessing from items people actually paid money for (sammy helm and ember legs), but made them tradable for something people actually wanted - Soul Stones. Which, at the time, were not available for purchase from the store. There was a lot of imbalance in those days that called for drastic changes, and with the itemization of UO over the years we are back to that point. Again. Just in a different way.

I recognize that there is an imbalance, and I can see a simple enough fix for it. 3) Increase the number of Siege Blessings and limit the total number of blessed items (from all sources) that a character can equip at one time. And stop adding new blessed items! (Except clothing. We need more clothing and shiny things. Oh, yes.)

Just my opinion.
 
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Eärendil

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I use a blessed event spellbook. In my opinion, this is an unfair advantage over other templates that do not have any blessed weapons, music instruments, etc. I love this book, with its blessing, and I will use it for as long as it is blessed. However, in my opinion, it ought not to be.

I also wear a blessed Lucky Necklace. I typically use my Siege Bless on an Armor of Fortune. Paired with the book and the necklace, I have 400 luck (plus 700 from statue), 50% LRC, 5MR (I use 2MR city buff), and 42% SDI. My resists are 40 across the board from skill. Certainly not uber, but I can farm just about anything wearing JUST those items by using spellweaving, chivalry, and stealth. All completely risk free. Unlootable. Anything else I add just makes my life easier.

Both the book and the necklace can no longer be obtained. I have an unfair advantage over any new player. If they added more Siege Blessings, I would simply have an even greater unfair advantage and it would not effectively fix the imbalance.

Ways to make it more fair would be to 1) unbless ALL equipable items with mods or 2) add more blessed items that are comparable to the ones in existence and spread out for ALL templates. The first option is the only realistic one, and I can understand why that notion continually gets shot down. They are basically PvM gear, and the vast majority of the population are, in fact, not PvPers. Not only that, but the Lucky Necklace, with its blessing, was awarded to players for actual money spent on this game. Changing the terms of the sale after the fact is... ill advised.

I recognize that there is an imbalance, and I can see a simple enough fix for it. 3) Increase the number of Siege Blessings and limit the total number of blessed items (from all sources) that a character can equip at one time. And stop adding new blessed items! (Except clothing. We need more clothing and shiny things. Oh, yes.)

Just my opinion.
Tanager, good points! However, I think: Thats life! I have missed tons of content over the years and I even missed those blessed spellbooks. I had to buy the ones I wanted. I never ever complained about not having/getting stuff. For me, thats just another type of crybabies: "Gimme stuff, because I feel treated unfairly." Those crybabies are loud when they can call others crybabies. :grin: I prefer to cry about rudeness, lies or mean communication, but those guys cry about power, control and stuff. Tells you alot about character...

Point is: If you want stuff, go and get it. I havent been there during most of the events that resulted in robes, spellbooks, exclusive places for housing... I dont have an abyss house, I havent been there when the garbs came out, I havent been there at ToT. I haven been there when the rare pets were handed out, such as dread warhorses and so on. I havent been there when Magincia fell…So what? Thats life! Do you hear us crying about these kinds of injustices of the game? No! I am farming gold the best I can and buy the stuff I want. Thats how you can do it, if you need an item. I was at close to 0 Gold in September and now I have bought all items I wanted.

But I will admit: Offering more options for blessing items is a very good thing.

Thanks for your profound statements, Tanager! :thumbup1:
 
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Tanager

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The issue at hand is not who can save up the most gold to buy the few items in circulation among the more established, elite player base. It is about equality, and the overall imbalance. There are simply not enough of those items in existence for everyone to ''save up and buy one''. I am aware that life is not fair. But some inequities in life CAN be adjusted, and this is one of them.
 

Eärendil

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Ok, agreed to some degree. But then I would rather say: Give people with a lower stock of such items chances to get them. And not delete / change the existing ones. And I say that from the perspective of being non-elite player lacking the stock of good stuff and resources.

Besides, there will always be imbalances, e.g. economic imbalances. What will you do about this? Do you think it is fair that not everybody has a castle or a house full of 21 year vet rewards? Or 500m gold? Or an Abyss house? Or a dread warhorse? Again, thats life! Thats imbalance, too - isnt it?

And if anybody thinks a certain template is catered while another one as a disadvantage: Well, go and make one yourself. I never used tamers, because I didnt like playing them. After the pet changes I learned that you have to have one for playing certain content. I had the chance to take over the account of a friend who had a tamer and made a ton of pets. Are tamers overpowered in PVM in certain places now? Yes! Is there an imbalance? Of course? What do you do? Play a tamer! There was a time, when Mystic-Throwers were engame designs, Sampires, whatever. You always had to adapt to new trends in the game. Things have always been changing… Dexxers feel underpowered? Be creative and change your style.
 
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Tanager

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I did not suggest that anything be deleted or altered - quite the opposite. It is very difficult for the devs to take back something they have given. My suggestion is to increase the number of Siege Blessings and limit the total number of blessed items (from all sources) that a character can equip at one time. And to stop adding new blessed items. This would even things out, to at least some extent, without screwing up anything already existing.

Making the events that do drop the already existing blessed items pop up again from time to time would also make me happy. I have never been a fan of ''limited time only, for forever'' items, but I understand why they exist. Decorative items, ok. But useful things that give those players an unfair advantage and discourage newer people? Bad idea.

Of course there always economic inequalities. Humans need challenge in order to grow, and if nothing is ''better'' or ''worse'' then there is no challenge. I just do not think this issue is one of those things.
 

Eärendil

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Excellent answer, Tanager! And excellent suggestions, both with regard to blessing and events. I 100 percent agree! :)

And of course, my statements were not pointing in your direction but rather general remarks on other positions in this thread.

I think I made my point, others may take over from here. But it might be wiser to bring up those points on the official forums, if you want to reach out to the devs.
 
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Max Blackoak

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For me, thats just another type of crybabies: "Gimme stuff, because I feel treated unfairly." Those crybabies are loud when they can call others crybabies. :grin: I prefer to cry about rudeness, lies or mean communication, but those guys cry about power, control and stuff. Tells you alot about character...
You're completely missing the point and as per usual you bring your questionable character asseessment into a discussion that has nothing to do with it.

Let me explain to you how you're missing the point:
The people asking for removal of imbalances in this and similar threads are for the most part not the ones who are affected negatively by them.
Take Bo, Astynax and me for example: in theory, we couldn't care less because we are very well established on this shard. We have all the blessed invasion spellbooks we want, we have all the skills and items we need, we can get all the gold we ever need, we couldn't care less.
However, we do care because it is not about us, it is about balancing the game for everyone, even the ones who just start out on Siege. It is discouraging to them when they see that established players have blessed items with mods on them that make it so much easier for them to do certain content, while they have no way of obtaining these items unless they find someone who will sell to them at a decent price (which at some point won't be possible anymore because there is a limited ammount of said items). And that creates a problem.

For an environment where people should be motivated to play this is absolutely detrimental.
 

Tanager

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On a semi-related note, I would like to suggest that the bandage belt from Khaldun event be CBDable. The leather Ninja Belt can be now, and this is a very similar resource-type item - just for a different template. It takes up the same equipment slot, which prevents a double whammy. Would not mind Cu Pads being CBDable either. Or quivers, another resource container that''s lack basically cripples a freshly rezzed archer when everyone else can SB their weapon - and still use it.

This would make tamers even more OP, so I can understand why folks might disagree :p
 
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kelmo

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Back on topic... Siege Bless is working as intended. It replaces the personal item bless deed and everyone has the option to use it as that player sees fit. That is what Siege Bless does. Leave it alone.

If you want more (different) blessings, insurance, or any other rule change to make Siege "better", ask for that.
 

Tanager

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I don't think anyone has said that the current Siege Bless is not functioning. It has been serving its function perfectly since it was made. But UO has grown and changed, and they are asking for the Siege Bless to grow as well. They are asking for a change to something that exists... not for something new. For me, I would be perfectly fine with something entirely new, in addition to the Siege Bless. Using a mechanic that already exists just seems easier and thus more likely to actually happen.

In any case, I think the main point is that there once again exists an imbalance of blessings where the vets have a discouraging advantage over non-vets. This was the problem before, and it is the problem now. The first time, I was one of those discouraged new people. This time, I am the over-advantaged vet. In addition to that, the game has become heavily itemized and most of the new content revolves around getting artifacts that no one will dare use cuz they can only chose ONE item. And since no one uses them, no one farms them. And if no one farms them, it gets hard for PKs to find prey. The food chain starts with the vegetation, and it ultimately effects every facet of Siege's diverse play styles.

On another point... I don't think there is much purpose in bringing this up on the official forum unless we can come to some sort of consensus HERE, were we are granted a bit more freedom to speak our minds. I have most of the items I want, I can farm the things I enjoy. My concern is population growth, and I have said my piece on the topic.
 

GarthGrey

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It took this thread about 10 minutes to get ruined...very par for the course.
 

Victim of Siege

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It took this thread about 10 minutes to get ruined...very par for the course.
I don't see it as "ruined" Garth, we can debate this all day but the truth is it has been debated by the same people over and over with the same result. the only thing really needed at this point is a poll to see where the numbers fall on this particular round. and put the poll in the official forum so at least it is limited to active accounts.
 

Victim of Siege

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Can we get someone that's unbiased to make a poll on the official forum? Similar to how Kincaid did it for VvV? Only two options, yes or no. Just a simple poll.
agreed, just have the EM do it again. simple easy with no rhetoric in the op
 
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