Have you seen the last 5 polls here on stratics? Its pretty clear that the majority of uo players still use CC, its not even close! Just a suggestion, maybe they should shut down EC and focus on the "Popular" client instead of splitting time between the two.
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Umm FC for sure works with animal form... 4/6 cap I believe
Ninja may be capped at 4/6, but the only spell that would gain any benefit from that would be mirror images.
That was ~3 years before this thread was started.
Honestly, the Fc/Fcr benefit from the suit swap wasn't the core issue, it's that only one client can use this (it shouldn't be possible in either client "During Combat"-
because of the amounts of skill bonus you're able to reach through items, and the ability to essentially switch all those skill points out based on what you want your character to do.
It's like a watered down version of "Set <skill here> ???.0" from TC1, limited by only the artifacts & jewels the player has to fill in their missing skill points. -That's the thing I dislike most about it.
You cannot bolt on EC features to something like CC. They have to be integrated from the beginning.
Personally I think neither client is gonna get any significant upgrades. But if they did dedicate some resources to it, it would be much easier to change the art in EC than add functionality to CC. So these calls to abandon EC because then CC is gonna get some love are just laughable.
Oh and those polls - they show that majority of Stratics visitors, not UO players use CC. They are the same people who have been aorund for 20 years and how representative they are of the population as a whole is a big question.
This conversation is mostly why I take such long breaks from this game way overly complex and mind boggling that you would need multiple suits in one battle to compete lol sorry just really lame imho. The armor I wear now was all given to me by freinds. I gave up on trying to have good armor, I used to work hard to get good armor as soon as I’d did the system changed and I needed new armor wtf I never finished even 1 characters let alone 7. Like I said before this game is for the stay at home spouse, retired and those that don’t work or have kids imho.
I’m sure if you ask the 100k plus people that no longer play this game, this might be one reason why they quit. Overly complex and absurd structure of it all along with no stability on game mechanics.
I’m sure if you ask the 100k plus people that no longer play this game, this might be one reason why they quit. Overly complex and absurd structure of it all along with no stability on game mechanics.
My apologies I guess you're correct, wasn't playing when they changed it and haven't played a ninja character in years.. wasted skill on a mage tbh.
Correct stratics players, but given the sample size of 200-250 players its big enough to give us a sample size of how many players play both clients. Obviously they aren't going to shut down one client, but I was just pointing out how stupid the idea Finley was floating was. I honestly doubt Mesanna's team has the capability to even upgrade the CC. I am a little fearful considering how many issues we saw and are currently seeing with the last CC upgrade (resolution).
Call me crazy, call me a dinosaur, call me an anarchist, call me an innovator, but gosh, how about 1 Armour suit for a character that could meet it's needs to play the game?
Like erm, well, every other game on this entire planet almost?
Like how this game started.
Then you wouldn't even need EC.
You are using EC to fix game design flaws (or to play it way beyond any design that was ever intended).
Some of you have got blinded and cannot see the wood for the tree's.
Many people are saying the game has got too complicated for a very good reason, how about listening to them, and stripping the game back a bit.
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Sorry but those stratics polls dont Provide any foundation. The devs themself Said ITS about half half
It's because Stratics literally is made up of a bunch of very old users who are incapable of moving on... hence their still using Stratics, still playing UO in the CC and still doing much the same thing they have been doing for the last 20 years... While a few of us love trying new stuff hence our constant reading of Stratics looking for something "new" to try or do...
100's of players don't even read Stratics let alone post here... I've said that for years. Many folk are just fine reading uo.com (what little is ever there) or just continuing to do the same ole things over and over and are completely oblivious to new additions to the game... and others just ask those that do read Stratics what's new... relying on word of mouth so to speak and could care less about this forum...
MalagAste - Joined Aug 2000, 20,891 Stratics posts.
"It's because Stratics literally is made up of a bunch of very old users who are incapable of moving on... hence their still using Stratics, still playing UO in the CC and still doing much the same thing they have been doing for the last 20 years".
I will agree with you if I must.
Cookie - Joined Mar 2014, 231 messages, Started posting Apr 2017 to explain what a godawful mess you Stratics Elite Clique are making of the game.
You guys are responsible for generating terrible ideas to the Devs over the years and the implementation of loads of half arsed systems, that will never be finished, and let millions of systems be forgotten about, and add to the mire of confusion.
It's a terrible experience for players right now.
Let go of your failed systems.
MalagAste is one of the biggest and most consistent critics of the decisions devs take. To accuse him of putting bad ideas into devs' heads is just beyond laughable.
Apart from that - separating good ideas from bad is entirely the responsibility of the devs. So is finishing the projects they start. EC very well could be the client that everyone wants to use. The low rez mess, wifh half the art borrowed from another game can be replaced with good looking, true to tradition models. It's much easier/cheaper to do then to add functionality to CC. But neither is going to happen, because BS does not have resources needed or it's not considered a priority.
Oh trust me if I could I'd certainly like to go back to the days of wearing a "heavy archer" suit and just using any bow... etc... and having dragons really be dragons and heavily OP... but thats me and that would destroy oh so much...
I love how people come to UO and expect the world to be handed to them on a silver platter and to be led around everywhere by some nose ring following quest after quest and not ever exploring for themselves... this is how most games are now... they pretty much play themselves... there is little thought or skill required on the part of the player... they just follow some set storyline .... and then wait around doing the same story over and over until a new expansion comes out and they run though that and rinse and repeat over and over...
Beauty of UO is that the game has always been what you make of it... the story is the one you create... and you do influence the gameplay if you want... play a complete jerk get treated like one... play a community leader and friend and get treated like one... be a double crossing skank and get treated like one... etc... You can be whatever you'd like to be and your reputation is based on how you play the game... sure you can change your character and such but soon folk realize who you are based on how you play and begin to recognize your "theme"...
And some of those half arsed systems we told them were half arsed... take that stupid refinement crap that nearly no one ever uses... wasn't our idea... most of the newer contents grinding qualities were NOT our idea... trust me...
And if you are looking to blame anyone for VvV look to those that were chosen to help with that... guarantee it wasn't me. Supposedly this was based on idea's and such of PvPers... but I do understand. Though I'll say more often than not the DEVs do whatever they are going to do and they don't really listen to much of our input... Unless we seriously raise a ruckus... which we sometimes do...
MalagAste, Railshot,
Decent responses.
For me, for EC to be any good, it would have a choice of graphics, 1 Engine, that allowed users to use the original graphics, as well as other.
Even things such as the new phoenix, you should be able to choose your graphic as I know that alone caused 1 guy issues!
But you have to ask the question, if you are switching over 4 suits on a character mid-game, does the game itself have a flaw in it?
Is the suit/armour design poor? I believe it is.
Are there too many properties which don't match and you are required to have too many for different functions? Yes I think so.
Should crafters have more of a role in all this? Yes I think so.
I understand where he is coming from, I have 3 suits on my mage, I have to switch out depending on task I'm doing - Luck, SDI, PvP.
But for EC to allow instantaneous switching of 3 suits, is just airbrushing over the real issue.
And 1 client should not have that much functionality over another.
I would have mentioned refinements of course as well, I can name hundreds more unused systems.
Decent responses.
For me, for EC to be any good, it would have a choice of graphics, 1 Engine, that allowed users to use the original graphics, as well as other.
Even things such as the new phoenix, you should be able to choose your graphic as I know that alone caused 1 guy issues!
But you have to ask the question, if you are switching over 4 suits on a character mid-game, does the game itself have a flaw in it?
Is the suit/armour design poor? I believe it is.
Are there too many properties which don't match and you are required to have too many for different functions? Yes I think so.
Should crafters have more of a role in all this? Yes I think so.
I understand where he is coming from, I have 3 suits on my mage, I have to switch out depending on task I'm doing - Luck, SDI, PvP.
But for EC to allow instantaneous switching of 3 suits, is just airbrushing over the real issue.
And 1 client should not have that much functionality over another.
I would have mentioned refinements of course as well, I can name hundreds more unused systems.
Very well said all of it imho
I am not sure a choice of graphics is even needed or reasonable. AFAIK, nobody is claiming that EC looks better than CC.
I don't see it as a flaw at all. I think it makes combat more nuanced. But the biggest reason I like it is that the mechanic provides more content that Devs don't have to code. Suit building is a big part of what people do in UO. It takes months, and sometimes years to make a great one. The suit switching mechanic gives people that much more to do in game where they have to make 3x as many suits.
Why not, as long as both clients are freely available? I agree that the decision to maintain two clients is one of the unfortunately many of UO's examples of how to take a bad situation and make it worse. But devs are clearly not prepared to drop one client, or make big improvements to either of them. So the way I see the current state of affairs, the choice between CC and EC is the choice between form and function. And if you chose form, it's strange to complain about lack of function.
So how many suits per character becomes the new norm?
How many can EC hold and switch instantly?
How long do I have to wait to complain it's too many?
10 suits per character?
(Backpack could hold this).
7 characters x 10 suits = 70 suits per account.
When do people admit its all a bit too complicated, and maybe this is a huge barrier to your average player?
And now you are forcing people to make 70 to be able to play aspects of the game?
(So it saves the Devs having to design a decent Armour system).
And you'll say you are not forcing them, just they won't be able to do content unless they can.
I don't think that is satisfactory, as a mage, I've already been locked out of most game content for 10+ years.
Some people just want to play the game, not build suits all their life.
Actually not complaining about lack of functionality, complaining about too much functionality than is good for the game.
When they sent Neil Armstrong to the moon, they didn't give him 10 suits...
Looking a bit hairy today Neil, going to need the Luck suit for this one, woah, solar flare, EC instant switch out, the fire eater suit now!
Too much complication leads to failure on all levels, fun and success are built on simplicity.
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Iam Not sure why are you so anal with suits. It's neither a must have nor complicated.
No one is forced to use even 1 suit. U can go out naked it u like.
It's down to the preference of the player. Someone using one suit is maybe as happy as someone who try to max his toon out and run 10. Why not?
If you don't like that EC got this ad advantage then use it. Or use assist this can also resuit u.
It would be better to focus on real issues.
I am not sure why it matters. It's a sandbox. People should be able to use as many or as few suits as they want. And there is a big downside to using multiple suits besides weight. The cost of my tamer dying is 27k. It can add up rather quickly.
Nobody is forcing anyone. All content is doable with a single basic suit. But for those of us who want more - there is an option. This is what makes it a great sandbox.
There are a ton of games out there catering to the lowest common denominator. The reason I and others still play UO is that it has complexity and depth that few other games have. At the same time I don't think this complexity is a barrier to entry as it's not needed to enjoy all content. You can discover and experience it on your own speed (for years!) as you play the game.
Finley and Railshot,
You both in essence say no-one is forcing anyone to do anything.
But they do, by default, all of this becomes the new norm - this is pushing the boundaries out there again at a point when things should be simplified.
They design Encounters around the fact such possibilities exist, and it becomes a must have if you want to play the game.
More and more players will continue to fall by the wayside, who cannot invest the time required to play such a game.
At one point, Legendaries were the top item, now, no-one will touch anything that is not Legendary. etc.
And Railshot, I am certainly not asking for the lowest common denominator, you have got to be able to see this is just way out there stupid.
You both in essence say no-one is forcing anyone to do anything.
But they do, by default, all of this becomes the new norm - this is pushing the boundaries out there again at a point when things should be simplified.
They design Encounters around the fact such possibilities exist, and it becomes a must have if you want to play the game.
More and more players will continue to fall by the wayside, who cannot invest the time required to play such a game.
At one point, Legendaries were the top item, now, no-one will touch anything that is not Legendary. etc.
And Railshot, I am certainly not asking for the lowest common denominator, you have got to be able to see this is just way out there stupid.
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I agree that the better equipment becomes the new norm for high end. However I'd like to reiterate that it is not necessary. I run a Samprire with a suit that was built pre-legendaries. It still works fine. Upgrading it some day will give me a lot of things to do (content!).
The alternative that you seem to suggest it to remove complexity and make it possible to reach that high end faster and easier. Why would you do that? Once people reach the end-game, why keep playing? If you can have only once suit, and it's not complicated to make, why waste time doing Shadowguard?
What I am trying to say is that the process of reaching that high end IS the game for many players. And doing it through collecting proper equipment is much more fun than grinding skills or levels as other games do. So I would definitely not want to lower the upper bar or make it simpler to get there.
If they can make a chair only the governor can sit in, surely they can implement insta-suit switching to CC.
I was switching to luck suits before killing a mob/boss since EC was out. To be honest it's all up to the developers how the game should be played. I'm sure someone on the dev team is smart enough to realize what benefits can be made by having a insta-suit switch option. Do I think that's how it should be? No I don't think they originally thought of people switching to a full luck suit for the last swing on a mob before it dies and I think it defeats the purpose of having high-end luck pieces. That's what people are doing now, and some people have been doing for a very long time. They probably also didn't expect people to be switching full suits during PVP too, but I think that should be allowed as it adds depth to PVP.
Regardless, the bottom line is one client can do something the other cannot and it shouldn't be that way. That was and should be the focus of this discussion. EC has unfair advantages, CC has unfair advantages as well. Both clients have capabilities the other does not. It's poor game design to let it continue.
I was switching to luck suits before killing a mob/boss since EC was out. To be honest it's all up to the developers how the game should be played. I'm sure someone on the dev team is smart enough to realize what benefits can be made by having a insta-suit switch option. Do I think that's how it should be? No I don't think they originally thought of people switching to a full luck suit for the last swing on a mob before it dies and I think it defeats the purpose of having high-end luck pieces. That's what people are doing now, and some people have been doing for a very long time. They probably also didn't expect people to be switching full suits during PVP too, but I think that should be allowed as it adds depth to PVP.
Regardless, the bottom line is one client can do something the other cannot and it shouldn't be that way. That was and should be the focus of this discussion. EC has unfair advantages, CC has unfair advantages as well. Both clients have capabilities the other does not. It's poor game design to let it continue.
I find it interesting that you think that suit switching adds depth to PvP, but somehow is a negative for PvM.
But I do agree that the situation with two clients is one of a kind in the industry example of how to take a bad situation and make it so much worse that you will suffer repercussions for years. When they released EC and people still hated the graphics and bugs, there were a couple of possible responses - 1)invest money into fixing the graphics and bugs (a normal and expected response), get rid of CC; 2) tell players EC is the way it is going to be and they better like it. Get rid of CC (this would surely drive some players away at least temporarily); 3) Maintain 2 clients (the most disfunctional solution possible, but at least we won't have to explain to the bosses how is it subscriber numbers dropped after we spent all this money on a new client).
#3 must be by far one of the most nearsighted and long term disastrous (a gift that keeps on giving for decades) solutions, but the Devs took it.In fact in my book of how not to do things in MMOs, it's only rivaled by introduction of shard shields for the wealthiest individuals in a game with top heavy economy in order to deal with low population shards. I wonder if it was the same genius responsible for both decisions.
But at this point, I don't think any big changes with the clients are likely. It would take too much money to upgrade all the art in EC, and CC is most likely impossible to upgrade at all.
I was complaining about people switching suits to ninja form, (possibly switching to casting focus to prevent disturb) however it works both ways, there is a dexxer in my guild, i saw a guy trying to form and our dexxer switched to LRC + magery/eval spell chann weap and weaken spammed the guy...
This game is crazy.
This game is crazy.
I'll give you that.
Maybe I'm getting old, but some of this stuff is insane from a certain perspective.
I need to go back to doing simpler hobbies, like brain surgery, and rocket science.
Ability to insta switch an entire suit on the fly mid-combat is pretty bad game design and comes with way too many odd, difficult to foresee balance questions for any dev to handle. (See Mervin's last post) I'd think UO's combat, in particular PvP, is already gearbased enough as it is?
Ability to mid-combat switch whatever you hold in your hands at will while having things such as dressing an entirely new armor locked out for duration of the combat seems to be some kind of a norm for MMos and RPGs in general. It would work fine for UO too.
Ability to rotate 15 pieces of armor instantly at press of a single button is ridiculous and invites way too many issues.
Ability to mid-combat switch whatever you hold in your hands at will while having things such as dressing an entirely new armor locked out for duration of the combat seems to be some kind of a norm for MMos and RPGs in general. It would work fine for UO too.
Ability to rotate 15 pieces of armor instantly at press of a single button is ridiculous and invites way too many issues.
I think you are all putting too much into this... I swap weapons and sometimes my talisman and quiver at the same time but to be honest the more that you try to swap the more likely you are to crash and or lag terribly... Mid combat this would be IMO too laggy to do properly and would cause some serious trouble... I know folk do it for bosses and such but often they move away from combat or are "squishy" tamers anyway directing a pet not in mid combat while getting wailed on... If folk are doing that they are taking a major risk... I can't imagine doing that without getting killed. Even just swapping the 3 items I do... it's nasty...
Well I dunno, I'm left with an impression that some people do indeed switch entire suits and sets with one button in both EC and CC? If there is a notable measure of risk or vunlerability or time consumed in the mix, then it is quite different. But I don't think that is always the case?
As is often the case, ye olde CC offers a very nice, organic solution to this;p It says to player "Oh what's that? You wanna switch your entire suit mid-combat? Go on them, good luck with it. Better be fast. " ;p
It just feels very natural and sensical game design to ensure that some excessive cycling of your entire wardrobe is a legitimate step that requires some time, space and safety to pull off. It shouldn't be behind one button on either client, or on UOA, or anywhere.It isn't anything that should fit between two energy bolts, so to speak.
Is that prodo shard???
It is so utterly insane they've tried to replace a client made in 90's three times. And failed at it three times. Three more or less different dev teams doing more or less the same mistakes. It left UO in such an unfortunate situation. I'm pretty sure the roadmap towards the release of a new client was always the same for 3rd dawn, KR and EC alike; " Once enough players have switched, we kill off the CC at last!" I think this was even spelled out loud during 3rd dawn or KR launch. It's just that all of them failed.
In light of hindsight, the right way to do it seems so clear.. Completely rebuild (or rather, recode) CC from scratch, give players a new UI, make everything very moddable (by devs) and future proof and stick the old CC's skin on top of it. Then, when you have healthy base structure and UO running on a modern code to build on, begin upgrading and tweaking stuff like graphics if and as time allows.
When it comes to graphics, this fan/artist gets it. This single image captures the spirit of what " enhanced UO client" would entail far better than people who made the graphics of enhanced client. Had this been chosen as a style, almost everybody would have embraced it. But noooo, they had to make it into some uninviting blurred mess.
For the sake of comparison, I took as similar as I could pic of the same scene as it appears on EC myself.
CC and fan-version by some artist in the gif to left, EC on right.
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Go and ask her, how long it took her to clean up that image. Then multiply that time by the amount of frames that animation has and then by 5 for all directions that asset can face. Multiply a third time for all assets in the game. If you then take into account, that a working day has only 8 hours, of which you probably be productive for 6 hours and you only work 5 days a week, I highly doubt, you'll finish that in less than five years...CC and fan-version by some artist in the gif
Sure, if you have a team of 10-12 artists, who are well versed with the UO aesthetics, have the experience and the knowledge, yeah, then you could probably pull it off in less than a year...
^ Yeah, I'm certain that creating great looking pieces of digital art, for video games or in general, can be a huge undertaking. Yet, great looking video games come out all the time. From small studios, medium sized studios, large studios. Making great or at least good looking video games is no small, simple or easy task. But we don't speak of unraveling the secrets of fusion energy or something. It happens. All the time.
No doubt such undertaking is beyond the current dev team with 1 or 1.5 graphics artists, no matter how good they are. But it wasn't always the case..each of the three clients were created by a studio with some degree of muscle.
No doubt such undertaking is beyond the current dev team with 1 or 1.5 graphics artists, no matter how good they are. But it wasn't always the case..each of the three clients were created by a studio with some degree of muscle.
Forum age doesn't mean squat for starters. The born on date is a lie. When this forum changed hands back in 2008, information from beforehand was purged. You had to petition to get your born on date reinstated, and in many cases it wasn't reinstated even when you did. Second, many of the users here have alt accounts they use for anonymity. Chances are you could argue with the same person twice in one thread and never be the wiser.
@MalagAste, the game is hardly 50/50 with regards to CC vs. EC. The devs. only tell people this to appease the EC base...much akin to how they tell you that your problems with the EC can be solved by a *simple* change in the settings. Rather than admit to being unable to do something or knowing the actual answers, for some odd reason they are compelled to use bulls*** to often explain things away.
The above quote is highly accurate of this situation, and needs to be stressed until this issue is fixed.
I will solve this issue while simultaneously demonstrating why this ability is ******** at best:
For the low price of $49.99, you can buy:
Earrings of IWinYouAreTrash
Alchemy +100
Bushido +120
Chivalry +120
Focus +120
Inscription +100
Magery +120
Meditation +120
Mysticism +120
Necromancy +120
Ninjitsu +120
Parry +120
Resisting Spells +120
Spellweaving +120
Wrestling +120
Casting Focus 12%
Damage Eater 30%
Enhance Potions 50%
Faster Casting 4
Faster Cast Recovery 6
Hit Chance Increase 45%
Defense Chance Increase 45%
Lower Mana Cost 40%
Lower Reagent Cost 100%
Intelligence Bonus 10
Strength Bonus 10
Dexterity Bonus 10
Mana Increase 10
Hit Point Increase 10
Stamina Increase 10
Mana Regeneration 10
Hit Point Regeneration 10
Stamina Regeneration 10
Reflect Physical Damage 250%
With the above pair of earrings, there's no longer a need to fumble around with buttons to apply the best mods/skills in any given situation, you can simply focus on the battle at hand.
Also, CC players have access to the same pair of earrings, making it fair again.
With that said, can anyone explain to me how this pair of earrings is fundamentally different than being able to switch suits instantly mid-combat?
Theoretically, you have have access to capped skills and mods of every item property in UO.
Over exagerate much? Suit switching is fine. If you want to do it use EC. For the record I use cc so really no bias here.
How am I over exaggerating?
Why exactly is it fine?
Do you have anything meaningful to add to the discussion, or just adding to your post count?
OR, you could simply switch jewel sets to whatever is most convenient at the time, couldn't you?
Again, how is having a multitude of items any different than all of those mods combined onto a single item?
I have used suit switching on EC for years now. No idea what the fuzz is about. It's not that instant, it's a mess to carry multiple suits in your backpack and you pay lots of insurance when you die. When you switch suits, your stats drop for a moment and you have to regen mana, etc. first. The notion of "free skill points" is not really cutting it, but hey, it's a good catchline, right?
So for the immense benefits that come with insta-switching suits, the only draw back is that "your stats drop for a moment and you have to regen mana, etc."I have used suit switching on EC for years now. No idea what the fuzz is about. It's not that instant, it's a mess to carry multiple suits in your backpack and you pay lots of insurance when you die. When you switch suits, your stats drop for a moment and you have to regen mana, etc. first. The notion of "free skill points" is not really cutting it, but hey, it's a good catchline, right?
Do you seriously not see why that is a huge issue?
I can't believe I'm having to explain this.. but here it goes:
When you're able to blend skills and stats so effortlessly, and without consequence, any notion of "class", or "template" goes right out the window.
Over time, you'll notice templates becoming more and more homogeneous, leading to a direct lack of diversity when it comes to PvP.
This completely ruins the spirit of UO, and invalidates any sort of decision making process a player might go through when they build a character.
Like 7 or 8 polls over as many years giving very consistent results don't provide a very strong foundation? Keep telling yourself that.
Did you actually run this setup for a couple of months, or is this all hypothetical? I've never seen any player throwing RCs while swinging his sword toe-to-toe with an boss and in the meanwhile vetting a GD next to him. It's just not a thing.
My point is: It is not nearly "blending in" as "effortless" and "without consequences" as you are trying to make it. Over time, nothing will happen, just like it has been in the last 10 years of that very feature being available.
Ups, I didn't read that one when I answered you before. It is pretty obvious from this one, that you have never ever run suit-switching yourself
On a related topic of this. My neighbors teenage son was having a party last night. I told all the teenage looking visitors to my house that they were invited. I talked to the neighbor just now. She said her son noticed a lot of unknown people at the party. At 11pm he turned off the music and yelled out, "Everybody that does not go to "his school name" needs to leave now. About 20 people left.
Yes, I did tell her what I did. She laughed.
This is the only lively place in Internet where you can come to read and talk about UO as it is played on official shards. As it stands, it is the closest thing to official forums with couple of current devs having more posts here than myself for example. Not everybody who plays UO reads Stratics Forums but certainly all kinds of UO players do. I can't think of a single reason why this wouldn't be the case. There are no alternatives. Wanna talk about OSI-UO? This is where you do it. With this in mind, all kinds of attempts to profile " a typical stratics poster" or dress him/her into some odd nostalgia-lover clothes are doomed to be very inaccurate and futile, imo. All kinds of UO players use Stratics and post here.
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