In Game Vendor Seach, Databases and problems and my solution

[Surgeries]

Well just for point. I have been buying goblins blood and runic hammers for various upcoming events.

The profit is already starting to show.

For the sake of people saying they spend weeks looking for a stool and therefore need a search engine will totally be destroyed by the fact one player can gouge an entire game system.

aside from a specifi crafted piece or armour to fit your needs... everything else can be made, found, gathered, traded for with 24 hours.

I fail to see what people need so badly they can't get.

goblins for Reponds
hammers for Hammer changes

If we had a flat database with every single UO vendor, all their items, and their corresponding ask price...it would be very difficult to gouge, I believe.

How could you? If there are 5,000 individual vendors listed, and they are searchable...if I want Goblin's blood, and you are the ONLY one selling it...MAYBE you could then gouge me.

If 150 vendors ALL are selling Goblins Blood...one person would have a very difficult time buying ALL of the competitors out. It could be done...but it would seem more unlikely than not.

Plus...with ALL vendors visible...a gouger would stand out like a sore thumb.

Particularly if there was a "Sort by Cost" ability, after the search completed.

The people searching would simply go to the bottom of the list, instead of buying the top one for the most gold.

That just makes good logical sense to me, unless there is some side I am missing, which is completely possible. But I do believe that letting all vendors be visible in a search...all of them...we would actually cut gouging out of the picture for the most part, indeed.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

If we had a flat database with every single UO vendor, all their items, and their corresponding ask price...it would be very difficult to gouge, I believe.

How could you? If there are 5,000 individual vendors listed, and they are searchable...if I want Goblin's blood, and you are the ONLY one selling it...MAYBE you could then gouge me.

If 150 vendors ALL are selling Goblins Blood...one person would have a very difficult time buying ALL of the competitors out. It could be done...but it would seem more unlikely than not.

Plus...with ALL vendors visible...a gouger would stand out like a sore thumb.

Particularly if there was a "Sort by Cost" ability, after the search completed.

The people searching would simply go to the bottom of the list, instead of buying the top one for the most gold.

That just makes good logical sense to me, unless there is some side I am missing, which is completely possible. But I do believe that letting all vendors be visible in a search...all of them...we would actually cut gouging out of the picture for the most part, indeed.

You are all over estimating the number of vendors.
You are over estimating the amount of a single item.
You are all under estimating the number of billion gold owners.

You all don't have to believe me.
It has already been done with gems.

Look at seeds of renewal. They are pretty much at a set price even though there are bizzillions of them. In that case they reached a cost and people keep them at that cost. When someone puts a 100 out there for 50% less they get bought up and added to the collection of the guy selling the for 450k per 10.

The 2nd gouging thing is the first to find information. If Goblins blood were noted in the patch that it would be needed to make Repond slayers for the upcoming changes in Wrong (new loot). Someone could buy them up for 25k to 75k per 10 and leave the guy selling them for 750k per 10 alone.

Then he could sell them for 250k per 10 and make a nice profit.

Still I haven't found anyone telling me what items are so hard to find that without vendor search you would never find it.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

And Surgeries the other thing you have to keep in mind is that a search system would be used for pricing.

Look up an item... price it close.
Want to make a quick profit... cut the price a bit.

What happens is knowing the common price creates a common price.

You are working under the assumption that there is more then 1 player that is going to say a fair price for my seeds of renewal would be 100k per 10k. Im just going to price it at that. Most players don't do that... and you would need most players doing that to make the idea that the market would influence itself in a downward trend.

When the price gets to low... the billionaires buy it up.

Its more like vendors will be... oh they go for 450k. I will price them at that.

Other manipulations are if I decided to put something out at a stupid price to make my other vendor look like it has the same item cheaper.

Think about it.

 

[Surgeries]

You are all over estimating the number of vendors.
You are over estimating the amount of a single item.
You are all under estimating the number of billion gold owners.

You all don't have to believe me.
It has already been done with gems.

Look at seeds of renewal. They are pretty much at a set price even though there are bizzillions of them. In that case they reached a cost and people keep them at that cost. When someone puts a 100 out there for 50% less they get bought up and added to the collection of the guy selling the for 450k per 10.

The 2nd gouging thing is the first to find information. If Goblins blood were noted in the patch that it would be needed to make Repond slayers for the upcoming changes in Wrong (new loot). Someone could buy them up for 25k to 75k per 10 and leave the guy selling them for 750k per 10 alone.

Then he could sell them for 250k per 10 and make a nice profit.

Still I haven't found anyone telling me what items are so hard to find that without vendor search you would never find it.

I was making a point which was obviously missed.

I have had vendors for 14 years, Raven. I am not blind to, nor am I oblivious of, the mechanisms that drive UO vendors. I know how to buy up all known items...I know how to flood a market. I have had vendors for 14 years, and I have made quite a lot of gold doing them. I may not be to your level of expertise, but I feel confident in my abilities, and in my working knowledge of the system itself.

The exact point we are all trying to make to you is that a search engine would be used for pricing. That is the point. The proponents WANT that mechanism. Not just for people that ONLY browse vendors manually, but for everyone and everyone's vendor.

Once ALL people can see ALL vendors...people will know what ALL Goblin Blood is going for...not JUST the Goblins Blood that is on a remote vendor going for cheaper than the Luna vendor has Goblins Blood for...no...we ALL would know what ALL Goblin's Blood is currently selling for.

DISCLAIMER: Goblins Blood is only the example here...substitute any item for Goblins Blood that you would like to.

Once everyone knows what ALL Goblins Blood is going for, and if Goblins Blood was the hot item, then people would have to price competitively to get the sales. Having a corner on the market, which would then lead to gouging, would be ever so much more difficult if EVERY vendor in Sosaria could be searched by every person in Sosaria.

With regard to the Hot Items like Seeds of Renewal and Gems...if EVERY vendor in UO...not JUST Luna and Zento vendors could be searched...there would simply be more vendors, as I see it. More vendors could easily lead to more items being for sale...that also follows logically. More items for sale means the price must drop. It must...unless ALL items always sell out at the highest price. But only then would the price stay the same or go up. Supply and Demand.

Currently some of the supply is simply an an unknown, unsearchable quantity. With a search engine that listed ALL vendors this would no longer be true. All vendors listed = ALL Gems and Seeds of Renewal available for perusal and possible purchase...depending on price, of course...which is the benefit of the search engine. The market would be far broader, most likely, and therefore should gain a broader supply to meet the demand...thereby leveling out prices because everyone will know what everyone else is selling and buying for. That, too, just follows a logical path. And, in that, I fully understand some folks will buy out other, speculating on a potential future demand that could produce a profit on their items. I was also a stock broker for five years, so I have some modicum of exposure to markets, and the forces that drive them, both in terms of "Long" and "Short" holdings and the profit potentials of each.

It would be far easier with a Sosaria wide search engine, then, to get traffic to even remote vendors without having to point people to your place of business. If you have items people want, even if you are right in the middle of nowhere...then people would go to those vendors. That part I know from personal experience. Currently, if a person doesn't know I have vendors in the middle of nowhere, unless they wander by them or see a rune I have left, they still wouldn't know my vendors were there, even if I had the best stuff around at dirt cheap prices. A search engine would change all that, and give everyone access to all of the vendors in the land.

I am unable to see the downside to this. At least, I would say that the ability to reduce price gouging to virtually nothing and gives all vendors in the land a level playing field to show off their wares and be an active part of the market, rather than just a "Well I will put these vendors up out here in the wilderness, and see how it goes" and then take them down two months.

In addition you keep using infinitives in regards to the searches and the perceived difficulty in finding items.

I personally haven't seen any proponent of the system say they "Still I haven't found anyone telling me what items are so hard to find that without vendor search you would never find it. ". I could have missed that statement, but I do not recall seeing that statement of impossibility. Nothing is impossible to find, given enough time, if one has to search wilderness vendors manually. It CAN be done...

I do see people saying that they don't have a lot of time nor inclination to run to all vendors in the wilderness to see what they have in stock and whether they want it at the price offered.

To search manually is mostly futile, in the end, as well. A person may run the wilderness marking runes to vendor houses, and JUST as they pass through an area, a person starts a new set of vendors and the person marking vendor houses doesn't know it. If they don't run the same path frequently, they will not know the new vendors are there. It is difficult to continually check for new vendors and note them. I also know this from personal experience.

The vendors they took the time to note that had a pretty great selection could close in a week. The rune will still be in their runebook, and they won't actually know they are no longer viable vendors until they actually go back there and find that out. More time wasted.

I will close by saying that I do concur that knowing the common price sets the common price. That was the point of the Amazon versus Picker analogy I made earlier.

To the point of a common price...I do believe the common price for all items will be more fair and much easier to arrive at with a search engine than we currently have.

I see no harm in knowing what any vendor in Sosaria has for sale without having to physically visit their home. I do not see how that makes the game more fun, and/or how it eases the entry to the game for new players, nor how it makes the game, somehow, more "Exciting to Play".

For most people it does not. Not the folks I play with, anyway.

 

[kaio]

The real problem is that everyone want's everything the easy way.
*wah wah* despice is too hard......DEVS fix XXX
*wah wah* poison is useless in pvp.....DEVS fix XXX
*wah wah* i'm too stuid to play a mage..DEVS fix XXX
*wah wah* i'm too lazy to browse vendors, for stuff i need..DEVS fix XXX
*wah wah* faction is useless...DEVS fix XXX

*wah wah* the social aspect in UO is gone
bla bla bla..

Please leave the vendor system alone, and shutdown those "search" engines on the internet.

If people want's something, go browse some vendors, go talk to people by using the cool chat. And ask your'e buddies on ICQ/MSN/*
Grab some of those runes people drop and check out the vendors in the wilderness...

EA GIVE US BACK THE TRADER PROFESSION !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Rupert Avery]

The real problem is that everyone want's everything the easy way.
*wah wah* despice is too hard......DEVS fix XXX
*wah wah* poison is useless in pvp.....DEVS fix XXX
*wah wah* i'm too stuid to play a mage..DEVS fix XXX
*wah wah* i'm too lazy to browse vendors, for stuff i need..DEVS fix XXX
*wah wah* faction is useless...DEVS fix XXX

*wah wah* the social aspect in UO is gone
bla bla bla..

Please leave the vendor system alone, and shutdown those "search" engines on the internet.

If people want's something, go browse some vendors, go talk to people by using the cool chat. And ask your'e buddies on ICQ/MSN/*
Grab some of those runes people drop and check out the vendors in the wilderness...

EA GIVE US BACK THE TRADER PROFESSION !!!!!!!!!!!

I might of worded it differently but the general point of this post I sort of agree with.

 

[Jade of Sonoma]

You get your asking price and make money which is the purpose of a vendor - no?

No, actually. My purpose, when I first had vendors on Europa, was to supply the things that people needed to play. I gradually built up a reputation as a reliable source of supplies and worked diligently, daily to maintain that.
Then a reseller found my vendors. Within 10 minutes of me stocking them, no matter what time of day I did it, my vendors were cleared and all their bags were emptied. My reputation for reliability was destroyed. I tried various methods to try to get around the problem, putting prices up, only putting half the stock on, varying my stocking times, to no avail. I don't have vendors on Europa anymore.

If someone in general chat asks for something and I have the item they're looking for I will sell it to them, otherwise my vendor owning days are done. Whether this request is or isn't met will not change that. I do not, will not, use the illicit search sites.

Exactly how I feel. I am sorry to hear you went through a similar type of experience that I had. But it is good you posted here. Many Players with the same good intentions exisited and have had the same happen to them lately. If every one of those players posted their experiences in here, it might be a surprise to learn how many have the same story to tell.

Like you, and many others, I've come to the same conclusion: The solution is not to own vendors.

Also I too do not, and will not, use the illicit search sites.
I have always played Sonoma so I can't help notice that so many respected prolific shops have shut down their vendors and sometimes their shops. Vendors are left standing like shrines with empty bags in their shops, particularly in some decently priced Luna Shops.

Now there are many empty vendor bags in many of the high priced vendor shops and many empty shops with no or few vendors in Luna City.

Outside Luna City I found Shops that closed and moved into Luna City and then closed again. There are a few shops outside elsewhere. I have marked runes to the ones I am finding.

 

[Ezekiel Zane]

What I am seeing now is many empty vendor bags in many high priced vendor shops and many empty shops with no or few vendors.

Yes because the current system benefits the uber rich and their Luna vendors. Almost everyone else has given up. The system is skewed toward those with too much gold and they only have to buy up everything in Luna for the most part.

Put in a shard wide, in-game vendor search and players will have vendors all over the place again. You wouldn't need Luna and it's exorbitant prices.

Sure the resellers are still gonna try and turn a profit by buying low and selling high but it will be more difficult and the profit margin will be drastically less. Anyone could find what they want anywhere and they wouldn't be limited to the convenience of Luna shops or need to use that site which again, predominately is 90% Luna shops.

The current system isn't fair or equitable . A legal in-game vendor search would solve that problem.

The only players who I see should be opposed to an in-game vendor search are the big Luna resellers who don't want to lose their near monopoly.

 

[Jade of Sonoma]

Ezekiel Zane: "The current system isn't fair or equitable . A legal in-game vendor search would solve that problem."

I can't see, despite all the posts in here, how a legal in-game vendor search would benifit UO.

The problems in UO go much deeper than just this super-duper in-game-vendor search idea. It might work on a very populated shard - - for awhile.

 

[Ezekiel Zane]

The problems in UO go much deeper than just this super-duper in-game-vendor seach idea.

Well if you don't want it because it's not gonna fix UO then why the heck should anything be added to the game then.

It's gonna take a lot more than any one single addition or change to fix UO.

Sticking your head in the sand and waiting it out until the inevitable shutdown, well, that's not my plan.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

The real problem is that everyone want's everything the easy way.
*wah wah* despice is too hard......DEVS fix XXX
*wah wah* poison is useless in pvp.....DEVS fix XXX
*wah wah* i'm too stuid to play a mage..DEVS fix XXX
*wah wah* i'm too lazy to browse vendors, for stuff i need..DEVS fix XXX
*wah wah* faction is useless...DEVS fix XXX

*wah wah* the social aspect in UO is gone
bla bla bla..

Please leave the vendor system alone, and shutdown those "search" engines on the internet.

EA GIVE US BACK THE TRADER PROFESSION !!!!!!!!!!!

Agreed. Just sticking items on a vendor, sitting back and letting a search make you a profit should not happen. I have known MANY people over the years who ran very successful vendors/malls that were not listed on a search site. These people were TRUE entrepreneurs and worked to get what they acheived. Anyone who doubts it need to look no further than Wynn of The Treasure Trove on Atlantic a few years back {rest his soul}, no search back then and was built into dang near an empire. And was not even close to inside Luna walls.

To be a true entrepreneur you had to keep up with current prices. Not just search a website or some other feature to get a price because a person is to lazy to keep up with the marketplace. They had to build a client base and show they could keep the wares people needed in stock. ACTUAL work yielded results. Now sadly a large part of the crowd want to be able to sit back on their laurels, and reap the same kind of rewards. *shakes head* Sad imo.

The current system isn't fair or equitable . A legal in-game vendor search would solve that problem.

The only players who I see should be opposed to an in-game vendor search are the big Luna resellers who don't want to lose their near monopoly.

I agree the current system isn't fair, which is why I would prefer the websites to be shut down. However, life is not fair, the game should not be either. Hard work and effort on ones part should determine success. Not a website nor an in game vendor search feature.

Like I said earlier in the thread.... the Devs need to stay busy doing what they have been doing and what they do best, Developing content and things in pixel form, not creating ways for US to sell our pixels we happen to obtain. Having them do that would be like us sitting back and saying, I really want to kill some Unbound Vortex's but do not want to exhaust any effort to do it.... Will y'all create an auto monster killing engine?

And nope, I am nowhere near a big Luna reseller who is trying to keep my monopoly. If we had in game tax returns I would publish them here to show it

 

[Ezekiel Zane]

Well it's a good thing your line of thinking didn't prevent the invention of the telephone or the automobile or the video cassette player.

I'll just give up my phones because the old way of communication was far better than what we have now.

Who needs cars? We were all better off when we walked everywhere.

You don't want a vendor search built into the game. That's fine. Don't use it then.

Hard work and effort on ones part should determine success. Not a website nor an in game vendor search feature.

So, because an in-game vendor search would make life easier and more convenient for everyone it's not a good idea and it's not needed?

You reminisce about the vendor shops of old. Yeah, you're right they did have to put in a lot of dedication to be successful. There was no search site using that program to log all the vendors. You had to drop runes all over the shard regularly to advertise and you had to keep vendors and rented vendors stocked to keep customers coming back. Generally though, once a place was well known, you had much less active advertising to do. Word of mouth went a long way. PTC on Pacific anyone?

the Devs need to stay busy doing what they have been doing and what they do best, Developing content

I'm pretty sure adding a feature like an in-game vendor search qualifies as content.

 

[Jade of Sonoma]

Well if you don't want it because it's not gonna fix UO then why the heck should anything be added to the game then.

It's gonna take a lot more than any one single addition or change to fix UO.

Sticking your head in the sand and waiting it out until the inevitable shutdown, well, that's not my plan.

no no -
Sticking Head in sand? I wouldn't be in here giving my opinion and supporting others with the same opinion, if my head were stuck in the sand.

So much has been added to this game. So many changes, rules, patches, fixes, new content, items - - If UO keeps adding more and more uber items to their new content, player-crafts are going to be a thing of the past. So why worry about a finding vendors all over the lands? Oh .. unless of course - - to buy the new uber items so you don't have to waste time playing the game to get what you want. You can just buy what you want off a vendor if you can find which vendor is selling what you want, fast enough, before someone else gets to it. ( Sorry <<that is a bit snaughty. oh dear I am picking it up from you guys. Forgive me. It's so easy to get that way at this time of the night. )


I still like calling this thread: Ridiculously interesting posts. New angles and view points appear, all reasonable and some very sensible, well written ..unforunately though, this thread is starting to go in circles and not much new thought is being added.

... good night.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

Well it's a good thing your line of thinking didn't prevent the invention of the telephone or the automobile or the video cassette player.

I'll just give up my phones because the old way of communication was far better than what we have now.

Who needs cars? We were all better off when we walked everywhere.

You don't want a vendor search built into the game. That's fine. Don't use it then.



So, because an in-game vendor search would make life easier and more convenient for everyone it's not a good idea and it's not needed?

All of these things have no doubt made life easier. However none of them should be included in a RPG in my opinon, including the last one. If we want the conviences listed above then maybe we should find a Grand Theft Autho MMORPG. My point is when it comes to RPG's, on occasion, just like in life, convient and easier is not always better.

I chose UO because of the somewhat realistic feel of a real, old school, rustic fantasy based RPG. I would be willing to bet alot more did as well. I can only guess they too detest when that falls by the way side. An in game vendor search would detract from that feel ihmo.

 

[Surgeries]

Well it's a good thing your line of thinking didn't prevent the invention of the telephone or the automobile or the video cassette player.

I'll just give up my phones because the old way of communication was far better than what we have now.

Who needs cars? We were all better off when we walked everywhere.

You don't want a vendor search built into the game. That's fine. Don't use it then.



So, because an in-game vendor search would make life easier and more convenient for everyone it's not a good idea and it's not needed?

All of these things have no doubt made life easier. However none of them should be included in a RPG in my opinon, including the last one. If we want the conviences listed above then maybe we should find a Grand Theft Autho MMORPG. My point is when it comes to RPG's, on occasion, just like in life, convient and easier is not always better.

I chose UO because of the somewhat realistic feel of a real, old school, rustic fantasy based RPG. I would be willing to bet alot more did as well. I can only guess they too detest when that falls by the way side. An in game vendor search would detract from that feel ihmo.

Kylie...your points are all well made.

I hope you didn't miss my points from earlier:

I have run Vendors in UO since they became available. I was very successful. Successful enough to purchase my current Luna house I currently own...purchased with gold I made with my wilderness vendors...vendors that I spread runes for and gated people to on Saturdays and the like...

All of the entrepreneurial activities you hold so dear. I did them all for a really long time. I agree with your sentiment here, and truly, if there were not any search sites, legal or illegal, available to Sosarian citizens, I would say, indeed, let's leave it as it always has been.

But honestly...it is not fair that people like myself DO have the benefit of a search engine, however powered, that will quickly tell anyone what is for sale in Luna or Zento, but anyone in the wilderness must get people to come to their vendor houses, along with a host of activities I do not have to engage in anymore...well...seems a bit unfair to me, anyway.

And I HAVE done both. I would be one of the people who would need to change the way I do business, in that case...where everyone with Vendors gained the benefit of being able to have their vendors searched already enjoyed by only Luna and Zento vendor houses.

I own a Luna Vendor house. I personally don't care if people in the wilderness who don't spread runes gain the advantage of a Sosaria wide search engine, instead of the very limited current system that utilizes illegal activities to sustain. They will have to change in doing business, as well.

If a search for an item was performed by the game and available to all, it would make the illegal search sites obsolete in the search need. It would also likely increase playability by increasing enjoyment due to time spent doing more enjoyable activities like hunting, and not hours opening empty vendors and bags.

If the game performed the function, then people in the wilderness would not need to spread runes anymore, but they would have tremendous competition. In fact, a game wide search engine would create very healthy competition, in my opinion.

Again, I do agree with you about earning what you get. There is absolutely no such thing as something for nothing.

However...I do believe very deeply that the particular activity, itself, should not be the determinant in what is earned.

For example...you and I, many years ago, would not be able to communicate on these boards like this. We would have written letters to each other to communicate our feelings. That was a good way for folks to communicate. It helped with handwriting, and helped keep the mind sharp, as well as share experiences and feelings.

Now we simply type the text into a box, and click "Submit".

We still get to communicate...we just don't need to have paper and envelopes around to do so. I don't need postage to do it this way. I don't have to hand write the letter.

But I had to buy the computer I currently have, pay for Internet, and I still have to type the letters, before I click "Submit". I didn't get the ability to do this for free. But it is certainly WAY more effective and fast than the previous way. Although many can argue quite cogently that you and I lose much in our current way of communicating versus the old way. And they would sure have very valid points.

There is no such thing as something for nothing, but because my father used to ride to school on a horse (I am not kidding) it doesn't mean I will gain a benefit from doing that over taking public transportation or drive my car. I have a Different price to pay to get to school these days, but today that activity rarely involves horses anymore like it used to.

Things change. The bottom line to me is that there is a demographic in UO currently that has a distinct advantage with regards to search-ability and availability of their wares to the masses that is really unfair. I am one of that demographic.

If we could take the search sites down, then I would reverse my position. If there was no way to go find vendors and goods other than in person, including in Luna and Zento which do offer the illegally mined data currently available, then I would say do not add a search engine.

However, logic dictates that unless some law is broken or other method can be used to render the illegal sites inoperable, all vendors that can be listed on that site will have the advantage, and I feel far more strongly about doing what is right rather than what stands on principle as correct, but ignores being fair and equitable in the process.

I hope that sums it up as concisely as I am able.

 

[Zosimus]

Now this is my opinion only and just throwing it out there. The developers need to do something simlar they did in Magincia but different.

The developers should make an area within the cities or on the outskirts of the cities that players on each account can only place one vendor at each city location. On my main account I would be able to place one vendor in Brit, one in Trinny, one in Vesper, ect ect ect. Just no more than one vendor in each city.

Now of course these vendor areas would have to be pretty nice size depending on the shard. If you going to continue to have a Luna in the game may as well make all cities be able to have the same chances.

Players would still have the same vendor system and chances as any other players to sell their wares.

If they do the above then a global search engine would be much easier imo.

Just my 2 cents and some pocket lint.

 

[Jade of Sonoma]

Good Morning!

Ezekiel Zane Post#112: - - Who needs cars? We were all better off when we walked everywhere.

Well Ezekiel, considering the alarming incidence of obesity in our RL population and the pollutants in our air, we are better off without cars and should walk everywhere. *chuckles..now isn't that the truth !!

Why hasn't the argument been presented that more time for health walks and less time sitting behind computers hunting for in-game-vendors is a very good reason for having a world wide UO in-game-vendor-search engine?

Oops .. am I trying to help the other side now?
In rebuttal: Saving time by using an in-game-vendor-search-engine, won't reduce the time players sit behind a computer playing games.

Kylie Kinslayer's post #114: - - My point is when it comes to RPG's, on occasion, just like in life, convient and easier is not always better. I chose UO because of the somewhat realistic feel of a real, old school, rustic fantasy based RPG

Surgeries Post #115: - - If we could take the search sites down, then I would reverse my position. If there was no way to go find vendors and goods other than in person, including in Luna and Zento which do offer the illegally mined data currently available, then I would say do not add a search engine.

Opposite sides of the coin blending ideas! Longer posts - both equally reasonable, well written, and such plausible arguments for and against.

- - plus a new idea submitted by Zosimus!

(Note: What is that saying __Nothing is just Black or White?)
EG:
Right now I would be out for a long morning health-walk instead of sitting here posting .. but *brrrrr* t'is bitterly cold outside with more new SNOW on top of black ice making conditions very dangerous both for driving a car and being on foot. But hey! Spring is coming soon! (It will all melt!)

Hope you all have a great day!

 

[Ezekiel Zane]

Good Morning!

Ezekiel Zane Post#112: - - Who needs cars? We were all better off when we walked everywhere.

Well Ezekiel, considering the alarming incidence of obesity in our RL population and the pollutants in our air, we are better off without cars and should walk everywhere. *chuckles..now isn't that the truth!!

Yah, I knew that one was coming. Haha.

 

[elspeth]

If we had in game tax returns I would publish them here to show it

Now there's an idea for realism

 

[startle]

Great discussion... I'll start with some points made by Surgeries, since I couldn't say them better myself:

Having a corner on the market, which would then lead to gouging, would be ever so much more difficult if EVERY vendor in Sosaria could be searched by every person in Sosaria..... It would be far easier with a Sosaria wide search engine, then, to get traffic to even remote vendors without having to point people to your place of business. If you have items people want, even if you are right in the middle of nowhere...then people would go to those vendors. That part I know from personal experience.

Currently, if a person doesn't know I have vendors in the middle of nowhere, unless they wander by them or see a rune I have left, they still wouldn't know my vendors were there, even if I had the best stuff around at dirt cheap prices. A search engine would change all that, and give everyone access to all of the vendors in the land.... I am unable to see the downside to this. At least, I would say that the ability to reduce price gouging to virtually nothing and gives all vendors in the land a level playing field to show off their wares and be an active part of the market, rather than just a "Well I will put these vendors up out here in the wilderness, and see how it goes" and then take them down two months.I do see people saying that they don't have a lot of time nor inclination to run to all vendors in the wilderness to see what they have in stock and whether they want it at the price offered....

To search manually is mostly futile, in the end, as well. A person may run the wilderness marking runes to vendor houses, and JUST as they pass through an area, a person starts a new set of vendors and the person marking vendor houses doesn't know it. If they don't run the same path frequently, they will not know the new vendors are there. It is difficult to continually check for new vendors and note them. I also know this from personal experience....

The vendors they took the time to note that had a pretty great selection could close in a week. The rune will still be in their runebook, and they won't actually know they are no longer viable vendors until they actually go back there and find that out. More time wasted....
.

Now, if you've been around here for a few years (14 for me) - the most apparent change to the UO that I became "addicted to" so many years ago - is the drastic reduction of the player-base which is so obviously apparent if you simply take an hour to reminise by traveling around the lands and towns.

I've been "snowed-in" here since Monday, so I've spent the last 2 days traveling ALL of Sosaria marking runes to all the coming IDOCs. And I do mean ALL of Sosaria. I just finished that task, and have 135 runes marked. The sad part was not seeing other players. Sadder yet, was looking at all the vendors that have nothing to sell. Places that used to always have players are mostly void of same today.

People have left and returned, but most have just left. It's the vast emptyness in the lands today that has me wondering how much longer UO will exist - PERIOD. And it has me wondering how that can be rectified.

One thing for sure is that Mythic/Origin/EA MUST begin to focus on how to both attract and keep new players. It's NOT for lack of content that we are losing our player-base, we have enough content to keep most players involved for years exploring all that there is to do in Sosaria. It's because UO is so difficult for the beginner, when that beginner sees what it takes to compete. They see today's players as so rich and powerful and skilled, that it's easy to see why most just give up. Especially since the only place they see people gathered together at all is in Luna, the city of and for the very wealthy.

There are other threads that have ideas regarding "enhancing the new player experience", and I didn't mean to hijaak this thread in that discussion. I only bring it up here because I firmly believe (as does Surgeries and Ezekiel Zane and many others in this thread) that a Sosaria-wide vendor search system would be a LARGE PART of an effort to level the playing field for all players, and especially new players that could actually find "stuff" that new players need to move onward and upward. If you're rich already (and I am) it certainly won't hurt you, but it would be a great addition for those that aren't.

Just sayin....

 

[Theo_GL]

Yes because the current system benefits the uber rich and their Luna vendors. Almost everyone else has given up. The system is skewed toward those with too much gold and they only have to buy up everything in Luna for the most part.

Put in a shard wide, in-game vendor search and players will have vendors all over the place again. You wouldn't need Luna and it's exorbitant prices.

Sure the resellers are still gonna try and turn a profit by buying low and selling high but it will be more difficult and the profit margin will be drastically less. Anyone could find what they want anywhere and they wouldn't be limited to the convenience of Luna shops or need to use that site which again, predominately is 90% Luna shops.

The current system isn't fair or equitable . A legal in-game vendor search would solve that problem.

The only players who I see should be opposed to an in-game vendor search are the big Luna resellers who don't want to lose their near monopoly.

Amen brotha'. Where is the like button?

 

[Petra Fyde]

I'm not against the idea per se, I just don't think it would be as effective as some people believe it would.
As said, Luna vendors would still buy to re-sell. They'd still have the advantage of many shops close together. They might have a reduced profit margin, but the problem crafters like Jade and I would still have is they'd buy our stuff that we worked hard to produce because then they wouldn't have to spend the time and effort making it, just profit from the time we spent. Which would leave us with the same situation we have now, empty vendors despite our best efforts.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

The real problem is that everyone want's everything the easy way.
*wah wah* despice is too hard......DEVS fix XXX
*wah wah* poison is useless in pvp.....DEVS fix XXX
*wah wah* i'm too stuid to play a mage..DEVS fix XXX
*wah wah* i'm too lazy to browse vendors, for stuff i need..DEVS fix XXX
*wah wah* faction is useless...DEVS fix XXX

*wah wah* the social aspect in UO is gone
bla bla bla..

Please leave the vendor system alone, and shutdown those "search" engines on the internet.

If people want's something, go browse some vendors, go talk to people by using the cool chat. And ask your'e buddies on ICQ/MSN/*
Grab some of those runes people drop and check out the vendors in the wilderness...

EA GIVE US BACK THE TRADER PROFESSION !!!!!!!!!!!

Im with you. Just go to the test shard. You can have it all.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

I'm not against the idea per se, I just don't think it would be as effective as some people believe it would.
As said, Luna vendors would still buy to re-sell. They'd still have the advantage of many shops close together. They might have a reduced profit margin, but the problem crafters like Jade and I would still have is they'd buy our stuff that we worked hard to produce because then they wouldn't have to spend the time and effort making it, just profit from the time we spent. Which would leave us with the same situation we have now, empty vendors despite our best efforts.

Exactly there are 2 misbeliefs.

One - is a vendor search is needed. (Okay 3)

Two - a vendor search would somehow add all these new vendors and fair up the trade. The truth is they would just bulk up the profits of the heavy merchant player.

Three - is a vendor search might make the game easier for the old arguement that it would attract new players because the game is 'Too complex'.

When I started it took forever to skill up. I made spell book by collecting scrolls. 100k took me a year to save up. More and more is lost in UO because of the misquided belief it is to hard therefore it needs to be made easier to do things. That is actually what is ruining UO IMO.

Look at it. Golems, SOT's to skill up, Soulstones for the win (you dont have to make choices anymore just store em), Recall in many ways to where ever you want, insurance, Stat Scrolls, and now vendor search.

The death of this game is... I should have it now to compete, sadly.

People even get pissed about free holiday gifts, EM events, and all the other stuff they don't get.

A search vendor would only help me profit, yet I still think it is a bad idea.

This game needs an ITEM WANTED VENDOR or BOARD. You list what you want. Charge it up with gold. The first player to drop it to you wins. You get your item. They get the gold. You could drop a rune that says. "BUYING LOTS OF THINGS see IF you HAVE WHAT I WANT." Very similiar to Mag.

This way there is no abuse in VENDOR SEARCHING and the players that need stuff can have it out in the game.

And I do think this is a better idea.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Amen brotha'. Where is the like button?

Dude... and all... you don't get it. LUNA isnt the problem. It is the ability to.... ah forget it.

You are all delusional if you think Luna would go away. You know what... The NEW LUNA would be the vendor search itself. The system just like a bad sci-fi movie, instead of the packed space of luna would become the new luna. Just think of it as LUNA got bigger. Luna would be all these 7X7 Plots.

It solves little but to accentuate the problems of the game and give those I MUST HAVE NOW a temporary break.

I kind of hope the do implement it. It would be fun to see who is most right.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

Good points all over the place. And I have to admit that it is on BOTH sides, pro and con. Although that don't mean I have converted over to the pro side yet lol. I wish every topic could be discussed here this way. Passionate debate at times, yet still civil and in a manner where mods don't have to get involved in an "official capacity". The people in this thread should be commended

Hopefully I did not just jinx it.....

 

[Surgeries]

Dude... and all... you don't get it. LUNA isnt the problem. It is the ability to.... ah forget it.

You are all delusional if you think Luna would go away. You know what... The NEW LUNA would be the vendor search itself. The system just like a bad sci-fi movie, instead of the packed space of luna would become the new luna. Just think of it as LUNA got bigger. Luna would be all these 7X7 Plots.

It solves little but to accentuate the problems of the game and give those I MUST HAVE NOW a temporary break.

I kind of hope the do implement it. It would be fun to see who is most right.

Raven...Luna will never go away. But a search engine that would allow ALL to see what's for sale on EVERY vendor...would make every vendor, for all intents and purposes...a Luna Vendor, inasmuch as there would be no "Little Shops" that people don't know about. ALL wares would be visible. Buying and reselling would be MUCH tougher than it is now. So...yes...ALL of Sosaria can then become a viable market, and not JUST the houses on the streets of Luna and Zento.

And perhaps therein lies the rub. It would greatly diminish buying and reselling with huge margins, especially after a while...particularly for those that rely on "Fog of War" for their supplies, and knowing where to find cheaper items to buy that others may not be aware of. This WOULD make the job of Tradesman...especially the one we know now...obsolete very quickly.

So see...we...I...DO "Get It".

For example, if you, Raven, owned a Vendor House in Luna, and you knew about Jade & Petra's little shops in the wilderness, that sold highly valued crafted items for about half of what YOU can get on your Luna vendors for those same items. Their little shops don't show on a search on any websites...but your Luna vendor DOES show up.

As soon as a shard wide search engine gets put in that can search every vendor everywhere...The moment EVERYONE can see Petra's and Jade's items at the prices THEY are selling those items for, and that price is HALF of what your Luna Vendor is charging...well...I am betting that the people seeking the highly valued items would make the trek to Jade or Petra's shops...mark a rune...and your Luna Vendor just lost some business. Business much of which was had because the Luna and Zento vendors make it real easy to find something and currently only THEY have a corner on the Search Engine, while the awesome wares at Jade or Petra's are not nearly as visible and as such, they feel compelled to sell at a lower price, making buying low and selling high MUCH easier for a Luna vendor. I totally get it, Raven.

Now...using this scenario...instead of having to go spread runes to get people to my business...I can just make sure I am priced competitively, and I am betting most of the rest of it will take care of itself. People will mark their own runes to my business...I just have to stay well stocked and competitively priced...which will be MUCH easier when I know what ALL widgets in Sosaria are being put on Vendors for. It would be far, far more difficult to price gouge that way, and to find that disparity (really just a lack of ability to get the same amount of business as a Luna vendor does) that leads to thge Buy low and Sell High scenario.

So yes...I vote to give every vendor in the land equality in search engines...search engines for some mean there should be search engines for all!!

Equal Trade!!

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

Their little shops don't show on a search on any websites...but your Luna vendor DOES show up.

Sorry, but that to me is not an accurate statement. Back when I used what is more than likely the best known search site, they had more than a few vendors that would show up in the middle of nowhere. Would I use them? In all honesty, not much. The only time I would was if the location was an easy one to find. There was one close to Empath Abbey and another just outside of Coves gate I would frequent. Was too much of a hassle to run all over the woods to locate a vendor somewhere in the middle of nowhere.

Even IF a shard wide search were to be implemented that would still be the case for the majority of people playing. Most people would not spend 10-15 minutes {or longer} travelling all over the wilderness to snag an item that was a couple hundred thousand less than what it was in Luna or another easily identified location. And would still not be what you seem to want, equal trade. Unless of course as one poster was saying... put in an option to be taken directly to the vendor OR be able to buy the item from the in game search and it appear in your pack. Either one of those option are WAY too removed from the fell of what UO should be in my opinion.

*edit*
Changed Minoc to Cove and added screenshot showing a search just conduted that shows a vendor outside of Luna.

 

[NuSair]

Having a full vendor search engine will not get rid of Luna or any other city with lots of houses/vendors. Unless the search has like a button or option to take you (via recall or a similar function) directly to the vendor- which I would be against.

It is just way to convenient to have all those vendors in a location like that. Especially when you are going to probably have a rune to there to begin with.

People are complaining about people buying and reselling- here's an update for ya- that has been happening since you have been able to place vendors in houses. Having/not having a shard wide vendor search isn't going to change that. People did it to me when I sold regs on my vendors for 1gp/each more than what I bought for them and I did it to people who were selling potion kegs for just the cost of the regs. As it is, I was upset when UO started making it so you couldn't buy up scrolls off PC vendors and sell them to NPC vendors for a profit. People selling recalls at 35gp each... I was making a killing.

Buying and reselling is just a part of the UO economy, it's just like when I bought up 5 Crimsons at 9mil each and resold them for 15mil each. It's just good business.

If you don't like it- raise your prices or just sell your wares though global chat.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Raven...Luna will never go away. But a search engine that would allow ALL to see what's for sale on EVERY vendor...would make every vendor, for all intents and purposes...a Luna Vendor, inasmuch as there would be no "Little Shops" that people don't know about. ALL wares would be visible. Buying and reselling would be MUCH tougher than it is now. So...yes...ALL of Sosaria can then become a viable market, and not JUST the houses on the streets of Luna and Zento.

And perhaps therein lies the rub. It would greatly diminish buying and reselling with huge margins, especially after a while...particularly for those that rely on "Fog of War" for their supplies, and knowing where to find cheaper items to buy that others may not be aware of. This WOULD make the job of Tradesman...especially the one we know now...obsolete very quickly.

So see...we...I...DO "Get It".

For example, if you, Raven, owned a Vendor House in Luna, and you knew about Jade & Petra's little shops in the wilderness, that sold highly valued crafted items for about half of what YOU can get on your Luna vendors for those same items. Their little shops don't show on a search on any websites...but your Luna vendor DOES show up.

As soon as a shard wide search engine gets put in that can search every vendor everywhere...The moment EVERYONE can see Petra's and Jade's items at the prices THEY are selling those items for, and that price is HALF of what your Luna Vendor is charging...well...I am betting that the people seeking the highly valued items would make the trek to Jade or Petra's shops...mark a rune...and your Luna Vendor just lost some business. Business much of which was had because the Luna and Zento vendors make it real easy to find something and currently only THEY have a corner on the Search Engine, while the awesome wares at Jade or Petra's are not nearly as visible and as such, they feel compelled to sell at a lower price, making buying low and selling high MUCH easier for a Luna vendor. I totally get it, Raven.

Now...using this scenario...instead of having to go spread runes to get people to my business...I can just make sure I am priced competitively, and I am betting most of the rest of it will take care of itself. People will mark their own runes to my business...I just have to stay well stocked and competitively priced...which will be MUCH easier when I know what ALL widgets in Sosaria are being put on Vendors for. It would be far, far more difficult to price gouge that way, and to find that disparity (really just a lack of ability to get the same amount of business as a Luna vendor does) that leads to thge Buy low and Sell High scenario.

So yes...I vote to give every vendor in the land equality in search engines...search engines for some mean there should be search engines for all!!

Equal Trade!!

I cant disagree with this but I would argue to end the ability of the search site.

It is just to close to saying give everyone the cheats if some have the cheats.

Ah well.

 

[Ezekiel Zane]

It is just to close to saying give everyone the cheats if some have the cheats.

Ah well.

Wow! That's just amazing. So you consider a feature, which would add convenience to finding what you want to buy, and efficiency and fairness to running a vendor, comparable to cheating.

Sorry, but that's just dumb.

 

[old gypsy]

Most people would not spend 10-15 minutes {or longer} travelling all over the wilderness to snag an item that was a couple hundred thousand less than what it was in Luna or another easily identified location.

Maybe most people wouldn't... but I would if I had the sextant coordinates.

 

[Surgeries]

I cant disagree with this but I would argue to end the ability of the search site.

It is just to close to saying give everyone the cheats if some have the cheats.

Ah well.

And, I agree that the sentiment of giving a global search to help offset the advantage given to certain Vendor Houses is not the right answer. I do.

But I will hearken everyone...everyone who uses UO Assist with the CC client, or did at one time...

I will hearken your memories back to the days when I would die repeatedly to someone who was using UOA...before it was an approved program. When it was unapproved, I would not use it.

I was really glad when it became available to everyone, and not just the folks daring enough to risk their accounts to use it.

I think that is a very fair analogy, indeed.

Again, I own a Luna vendor house myself, and I say let the folks in the wilderness at least be seen. If people won't travel there (which I think is not a valid point...I believe people will take the time to go mark a rune...the same way they search for vendors in the wilderness today).

It is a "Cheat" that allows the current system, and unless they can stop the data mining, the advantage to Luna and Zento, and yes...the few vendors that get listed on the cheat site that are outside urban areas...then they need to let all vendors have the same abilities IMHO.

 

[Theo_GL]

I cant disagree with this but I would argue to end the ability of the search site.

It is just to close to saying give everyone the cheats if some have the cheats.

Ah well.

Now you are calling this cheating becuase they are likely (not proven) using an unapproved tool to automate the collection of the data for this search site.

We are talking about an IN GAME feature that does not yet exist to replace the need this site is currently filling. In that case - you can't call it cheating. We are asking for it to be part of the game.

I also don't consider this site to be cheating ATM because it is AVAILABLE TO ALL. Now if they were using it for personnal gain (not proven here) to buy low/sell high then that would be cheating.

Right now you have a 3rd party proving a service to all that people very much use with great success that we are asking the dev team to make legitimate by adding it to the game.

I prefer to believe in years and years of a capitalistic economny that made this country great as my basis for a shard wide vendor search that provides closer to a perfect market.

That would be to UO what Amazon is to real life - a way to quickly search for an item at the best possible price.

It also helps vendors see current prices on the shard and price competively. I can't keep up with the current prices on 8 million things in game half of which I haven't even heard of. I just want to know that if 115 archery scrolls are going for 100k on atlantic, 80k on lake sup and 50k on Origin with NONE for sale on my shard - i'll likely price them somewhere in that range on GL for a fair price (probably 85k).

Full and transparent information makes for the most efficient of markets - removes ability to price gouge and promotes competiive pricing. It allows you to get a fair price for your goods and for you as a consumer not to get ripped off by some vendor in Luna providing 'convenience'.

In any situation - I prefer capitalism with as close to perfect market conditions as possible.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Wow! That's just amazing. So you consider a feature, which would add convenience to finding what you want to buy, and efficiency and fairness to running a vendor, comparable to cheating.

Sorry, but that's just dumb.

I dont consider it a feature that would add to the game. Convenience is the word tossed around the equates to being lazy in game (not life). To much is way too convenient. I don't think it has to do with fairness in anyway. Ive run vendors for 10 years. Drop runes. It works. Find good merchants they spread the word. It isn't hard if effort is put in.

Im not sure what you find unfair about running a vendor but for the site that you might consider cheating.

Therefore yeah just cause there are cheaters doesnt mean everyone should be given it.

Dumb or not. No one has told me a single reason but for the sake of I DONT FEEL LIKE LOOKING and WANT IT NOW as the main reason for a vendor search.

Price, free market, fair deal, even playing field just doesn't hold water.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

I also don't consider this site to be cheating ATM because it is AVAILABLE TO ALL. Now if they were using it for personnal gain (not proven here) to buy low/sell high then that would be cheating.

C'mon man, you well spoken and seem fairly intelligent to me. An attempt to defend them from using it for their personal gain is beneath you dude. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you missed how it went just before this Clean UP cycle launched. When the list of items for clean up were released/begining to be found and how that went? The turn-inable items were black listed from the search feature {you could tell that because a search of the item resulted in no returns but you would see them even on Luna vendors}, yet their delivery guy {most of us know exactly who that is} was buying the stuff up all over the place.

As I have said earlier, there are good points all over both pro and con, and you are one of the ones that raises some of the good points for the pro side. I would hate to see you lose credibility on those points for trying to defend the undefensible like you do in this imo. Some folks ignore anything someone says when they find the least little chink in the armor.

 

[Theo_GL]

C'mon man, you well spoken and seem fairly intelligent to me. An attempt to defend them from using it for their personal gain is beneath you dude. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you missed how it went just before this Clean UP cycle launched. When the list of items for clean up were released/begining to be found and how that went? The turn-inable items were black listed from the search feature {you could tell that because a search of the item resulted in no returns but you would see them even on Luna vendors}, yet their delivery guy {most of us know exactly who that is} was buying the stuff up all over the place.

As I have said earlier, there are good points all over both pro and con, and you are one of the ones that raises some of the good points for the pro side. I would hate to see you lose credibility on those points for trying to defend the undefensible like you do in this imo. Some folks ignore anything someone says when they find the least little chink in the armor.

I don't have any proof of that happening so I'm not going to say it did or did not happen. While possible - I have no proof. There are times when the entire site provides no results due to an update or db down or whatever.

Is there a possibility for abuse? Yes, but they could simply not turn this on at ALL and fully use the info themselves.

Many times this has helped me price an item or find the lowest price possible on my shard and saved me millions. That is my point.

Make it part of the game and we can all use it all the time.

 

[Theo_GL]

I dont consider it a feature that would add to the game. Convenience is the word tossed around the equates to being lazy in game (not life). To much is way too convenient. I don't think it has to do with fairness in anyway. Ive run vendors for 10 years. Drop runes. It works. Find good merchants they spread the word. It isn't hard if effort is put in.

Im not sure what you find unfair about running a vendor but for the site that you might consider cheating.

Therefore yeah just cause there are cheaters doesnt mean everyone should be given it.

Dumb or not. No one has told me a single reason but for the sake of I DONT FEEL LIKE LOOKING and WANT IT NOW as the main reason for a vendor search.

Price, free market, fair deal, even playing field just doesn't hold water.

Then you don't understand a free market with perfect information.

Don't confuse laziness with efficiency.

Lets assume you want to buy GE stock. I will sell you some for $25/share. How does that sound? Do you know of any other person you can buy this from for less? Your neighbor? Your brother? Is that a good price?

WHAT??? You are going to get a stock quote site to find its trading at $19.06 today? Thats lazy man. Pure laziness. Why don't you go out to the street corner and ask 100 people if they have GE stock to sell you and at what price. Maybe you can find some for $22 or $21 or $19.06 after spending 2 days asking people to sell you some.

Its not laziness - its called efficiency. Perfect information protects you from being ripped off at more than fair market prices. That is as simple as I can make it for you.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

I can understand what you are saying, I am also one of those that needs proof on most everything. As far as proof goes, I have none, kinda hard to prove something that happens in game like that. I just know everything except clean up items were yielding results, but the clean up items were not. What I saw happening with my own eyes was proof enough for me, and with the exception of the above search I have not {nor will I} used the site since. I reckon you can think of me as an eyewitness tho lol

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Then you don't understand a free market with perfect information.

Don't confuse laziness with efficiency.

Lets assume you want to buy GE stock. I will sell you some for $25/share. How does that sound? Do you know of any other person you can buy this from for less? Your neighbor? Your brother? Is that a good price?

WHAT??? You are going to get a stock quote site to find its trading at $19.06 today? Thats lazy man. Pure laziness. Why don't you go out to the street corner and ask 100 people if they have GE stock to sell you and at what price. Maybe you can find some for $22 or $21 or $19.06 after spending 2 days asking people to sell you some.

Its not laziness - its called efficiency. Perfect information protects you from being ripped off at more than fair market prices. That is as simple as I can make it for you.

Brother I understand free market. U0 is a closed system game that can be manipulated. RL doesn't cut it. Look at the hedge funds and oil commodities... they can be manipulated and are. Luckily the entire free market can't. But people try.

UO is a game with an imperfect yet functional economy. Efficiency can also be found be given us magic words to get stuff in are UO box. It might be efficient yet it would ruin the game.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

I don't have any proof of that happening so I'm not going to say it did or did not happen. While possible - I have no proof. There are times when the entire site provides no results due to an update or db down or whatever.

Is there a possibility for abuse? Yes, but they could simply not turn this on at ALL and fully use the info themselves.

Many times this has helped me price an item or find the lowest price possible on my shard and saved me millions. That is my point.

Make it part of the game and we can all use it all the time.

Sound like you already have a search system. Im fine with that. Using the site is a choice. Having there or in game still ruins the game in my opinion.

But you have to do what you want to do.

 

[old gypsy]

Although I often miss the days when we could wander the land and expect to find nice items on wilderness vendors, it's plain that times have truly changed in UO. Also, real world lives have changed -- the average player is older now, presumably with greater responsibilities in life and correspondingly fewer hours to spend on gaming. In the "old days" I would have been opposed to the idea of a shard-wide vendor search system. Today, I lean toward thinking it has the potential of being a truly helpful tool for busy people who understandably don't care to spend too much of their game time shopping.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

And let me give you the game play argument.

I am a merchant. I mark runes, build relationships, learn wants and needs. I travel the land and meet players, share runes to vendor malls to create vendor circles.

I buy here and there... sell in Luna and at my commerce center. I buy what I can resell for 20% or more profit. I fight monsters, seek quests and sell the gains I don't want.

I learn the value and understand pricing and how to move an item. I have fun looking around and traveling the lands.


FLASH FORWARD TO FANTASY LAND...

VENDOR SEARCH added with a nice recall function. Because lets be fair why the heck should I run to the vendor I want to buy something. It would be more convenient and efficient to buy it off the search menu. Some might call it lazy.

Now... I log in. Stand at my house with the CRYSTAL PORTAL OF VENDOR SEARCH... find what I want. Hit buy and magic box delivery it to my CHEST OF VENDOR DELIVERIES. In 15 minutes I find everything I can resell for 20% more. I spent 500 million on buying all the resources useds for an upcoming game change. I sell it for double buy tossing it on the vendor next to me just because I got there first.

HMMM that was fun. Now I have 1000 million to spend. Searches again and repeats.

Efficient yes. Game wrecker yes.

 

[Surgeries]

I am glad we all agree that using a script-bot to gather info and provide that info in that manner is cheating. I wish they could shut off the feature completely.

The argument for people wanting convenience over working for it also is quite valid. But since time immemorial, we have seen progress that makes prior activities seem not as desirable as new, more efficient methods. And since time immemorial we have heard the lament "When I was a kid...we WALKED to school...uphill BOTH WAYS!!!"

So...my point will stay that people that have Vendor Houses in Luna, Zento or any other location that gets listed as Vendors by the illegal methods have an advantage over all other Vendors that do not have this benefit. I do not agree with this advantage.

That advantage should be all or none in my opinion. Since elimination of the search sites is not currently possible, then allowing all vendors equal access to customers looking for goods seems to make sense.

OK...done, and shorter than I have been able to do this whole time.

I will also say I appreciate the maturity and use of discretion in discussing this subject by all parties.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

I am glad we all agree that using a script-bot to gather info and provide that info in that manner is cheating. I wish they could shut off the feature completely.

The argument for people wanting convenience over working for it also is quite valid. But since time immemorial, we have seen progress that makes prior activities seem not as desirable as new, more efficient methods. And since time immemorial we have heard the lament "When I was a kid...we WALKED to school...uphill BOTH WAYS!!!"

So...my point will stay that people that have Vendor Houses in Luna, Zento or any other location that gets listed as Vendors by the illegal methods have an advantage over all other Vendors that do not have this benefit. I do not agree with this advantage.

That advantage should be all or none in my opinion. Since elimination of the search sites is not currently possible, then allowing all vendors equal access to customers looking for goods seems to make sense.

OK...done, and shorter than I have been able to do this whole time.

I will also say I appreciate the maturity and use of discretion in discussing this subject by all parties.

Its an advantage that is miniscual (SP)

I have several vendor in LUNA that coast under 100k a month. Anyone cant get a vendor for chump change.

If every vendor spot was full that that would be an issue. ZENTO is barren and vendors are practically free. Wheres the advantage.

Set up a luna or zento vendor. Bring you big ticket items by for the vendor.

 

[old gypsy]

*nods to Surgeries* If such a system was ever approved and implemented, it should not involve the ability to instantly purchase an item or transport a buyer to the desired location. Providing the coordinates needed in order to find the vendor in game would be sufficient.

 

[Theo_GL]

And let me give you the game play argument.

I am a merchant. I mark runes, build relationships, learn wants and needs. I travel the land and meet players, share runes to vendor malls to create vendor circles.

I buy here and there... sell in Luna and at my commerce center. I buy what I can resell for 20% or more profit. I fight monsters, seek quests and sell the gains I don't want.

I learn the value and understand pricing and how to move an item. I have fun looking around and traveling the lands.


FLASH FORWARD TO FANTASY LAND...

VENDOR SEARCH added with a nice recall function. Because lets be fair why the heck should I run to the vendor I want to buy something. It would be more convenient and efficient to buy it off the search menu. Some might call it lazy.

Now... I log in. Stand at my house with the CRYSTAL PORTAL OF VENDOR SEARCH... find what I want. Hit buy and magic box delivery it to my CHEST OF VENDOR DELIVERIES. In 15 minutes I find everything I can resell for 20% more. I spent 500 million on buying all the resources useds for an upcoming game change. I sell it for double buy tossing it on the vendor next to me just because I got there first.

HMMM that was fun. Now I have 1000 million to spend. Searches again and repeats.

Efficient yes. Game wrecker yes.

A - You are a luna vendor that is scared to lose your advantage - I get that. It is Luna vendors that oppose this system as a general rule.
B - There is always arbitrage to be made off of every rule change in UO whether you have a search engine or not. I'm selling PoF as fast as I can at 140k a bottle before the bod changes go in and people can get all they want for a few k in gold. You don't need a vendor search system for that. There is nothing you can do about game changing rules that change the price of items.

Once again - you can TRY to corner the market on rare goods - but if they can be gathered (ingots, gems etc) then people can produce more. If you try to buy up all the full spellbooks and sell at 75k, people will enter the market to make them at 50k and flood the market. It is that simple.

On some shards - you might be able to corner the market to an extent - but its not like you are cornering it on food or medical supplies - there is nothing in this game that is NEEDED to play that you cannot acquire yourself. POF too high? Get some bods and get your own.

No vendor search does NOT keep prices down and encourage competition - it has led to the rise of the luna vendor and the demise of the small shop to the detriment of all. Ever wonder why 80% of the population in game wants to blow up luna? I understand you are trying to protect your shop and are defensive - but please don't act like you speak for the playerbase.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

Providing the coordinates needed in order to find the vendor in game would be sufficient.

NPC tinkers would be thankful, sextants would start selling again I hear they have slumped off a bit from the all time high right after High Seas launched

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

A - You are a luna vendor that is scared to lose your advantage - I get that. It is Luna vendors that oppose this system as a general rule.
B - There is always arbitrage to be made off of every rule change in UO whether you have a search engine or not. I'm selling PoF as fast as I can at 140k a bottle before the bod changes go in and people can get all they want for a few k in gold. You don't need a vendor search system for that. There is nothing you can do about game changing rules that change the price of items.

Once again - you can TRY to corner the market on rare goods - but if they can be gathered (ingots, gems etc) then people can produce more. If you try to buy up all the full spellbooks and sell at 75k, people will enter the market to make them at 50k and flood the market. It is that simple.

On some shards - you might be able to corner the market to an extent - but its not like you are cornering it on food or medical supplies - there is nothing in this game that is NEEDED to play that you cannot acquire yourself. POF too high? Get some bods and get your own.

No vendor search does NOT keep prices down and encourage competition - it has led to the rise of the luna vendor and the demise of the small shop to the detriment of all. Ever wonder why 80% of the population in game wants to blow up luna? I understand you are trying to protect your shop and are defensive - but please don't act like you speak for the playerbase.

All Right. I made my point. I see frustration is leading to name calling. Im done.

 

[old gypsy]

NPC tinkers would be thankful, sextants would start selling again I hear they have slumped off a bit from the all time high right after High Seas launched