If there is ANYTHING in PvP that needs an immediate fix

[Widow Maker]

"Using blue bards against tamers is not an exploit

I have to say that using a blue bard is not an exploit. It's totally valid game mechanics.

To people that says "then how come if red bards do the same thing, they are flagged". My opinion is that, being red means you are now a wanted murderer. It's one more penalty for being red, and more reason to stay blue. I am sorry to say that wonton murderers should not expect the same courtesy normally afforded to the blues to be extended to you.

As a tamer, you alone (even without your weakened pet) should be able to take out the bard if neither of you are hugging a guardzone.

Templates wise, - in theory, a tamer has devoted only 2-3 skills: taming/lore plus maybe vet in his template. The rest of the 4-5 skills can be uses on magery/eval/resists/med (or their warrior equivalents weaponskill/tactics/resists/chiv/bushido).

A bard has devoted the same 2-3 skills: music/discord plus maybe peace. He also has 4-5 remaining skills for the rest of his template.

So even with the tamers' pet taken out of the equation, the tamer still has the same remaining skill points to go toe to toe with the bard.

Further, note that the skillpoints invested into the barding skills are much less useful in a PvP situation compared to taming."


Wow...just wow. I would shoot this down in flames but the entire statement is wrong on so many levels I just wanted to sit it out by itself.

Unbelievable!

 

[ATLPvPer]

You are wrong. Note I said two could do it in 20 seconds. Honestly, the easiest way for a single dexer to deal with it is to lead the dragon away, making it obsolete, then use tracking or human tracking and conflag pots to do away with the tamer. Also, there are confusion pots that will make the pet stop targetting you.

Just because you DONT WANT to use/invest in the skills that will defeat this template (tracking, disco just to name two) doesnt mean they dont exist. My husbands favorite way to deal with GDs is a disco/poison/fencer. He can dispatch both the tamer and the pet quite well by himself when he is doing it right. You are wanting to take your most awesome dagger to a gun fight, and its no one's fault but your own. Use the right tool for the right situation. That is all there is to it.

Now, having pointed out that there are several ways to counter GD tamers, even solo, I suggest you look up a thread that I participated HEAVILY in that had to do with ballancing pets for PvP. There were some really good ideas in it that did not include *tamers should be banned from Fel because I can't use appropriate skills against them!* There are definitely issues with casting range, and a serious issue with being able to safe-log a pet that is in combat. They just are not as insurmountable as some people want to make them out to be.

Oh boy thats laughable. Why would the tamer let you lure his pet away, when he or she can simply log in/out to recover it, or say "all follow me" (pets will not be distracted by flagging anymore). Anyone who has any ounce of knowledge will not let their pet get 'lured away'.

Oh and your husbands 'template' idea. Tracking, music, discord, poisoning, fencing, tactics, lets say he has GM tracking and 120 everything else. Or he has GM everything and throws on detect hidden, which he would need also. So, he has this great elaborate template to deal with tamers. Thats well and fine. What does he do against every single other template in the game?? How does he regenerate mana?? How does he heal himself?? Without resist, how does he deal when a mage mana vamps him, especially without med? What if the tamer isn't standing there like an idiot and is actually casting spells on him or hitting him with a bow when he can't heal?? Heal pots won't save him. Horribly flawed template, one should never have to resort to that just to combat an overpowered template.

You are telling me, we all need to dedicate 400+ points to deal with, at MOST, 240 points (if the tamer doesn't use any skill jewls/talismans/helms) and render ourselves obsolete to EVERY other template, just do deal with tamers??

You have accidently explained exactly why tamers need a balance in PvP.

 

[ATLPvPer]

"Further, note that the skillpoints invested into the barding skills are much less useful in a PvP situation compared to taming."


Wow...just wow. I would shoot this down in flames but the entire statement is wrong on so many levels I just wanted to sit it out by itself.

Unbelievable!

Really? Why don't you shoot it down then.
With Taming, I can use a variety of different pets, all serving their own purposes, some dismount, some are rideable, some have 1000+ hit points, some have fireballs that hit for 60+ damage, all are able to cast spells across screens, all are able to be returned to the tamer via log in/out, these pets can attack 100% of pvp templates and are effective against 100% of pvp templates, enless of course you consider a music / discord / peace / tracking / detect hidden character a PvP character.

Then we have music/discord/peace. 360 points compared to 240 from taming. These skills, in a pvp situation, are only useful against ONE template, tamers.

Want to rethink your assumptions?

 

[Cutblade]

I SAY WE GO BACK TO OLD SCHOOL TAMERS!!!!!!. Let Tamers run with multiple pet Dragons. I loved being able to control two dragons in pvp and pvm. ...Well isn't it the same "power" in todays UO mr. Dev's? Worst thing you guys done was add new Templates..You had the Tamers "under control" before you introduced Tokono Islands!

Yes does anyone remember that problem? I do. And I also told myself removing and nerfing the tamer back then and limiting how many pets they can control would be a serious problem when they added in new templates...Nice work Dev's your back at square one..you created this monster of a mess and now you need to come up with another "quick fix".

 

[WarUltima]

I SAY WE GO BACK TO OLD SCHOOL TAMERS!!!!!!. Let Tamers run with multiple pet Dragons. I loved being able to control two dragons in pvp and pvm. ...Well isn't it the same "power" in todays UO mr. Dev's? Worst thing you guys done was add new Templates..You had the Tamers "under control" before you introduced Tokono Islands!

Yes does anyone remember that problem? I do. And I also told myself removing and nerfing the tamer back then and limiting how many pets they can control would be a serious problem when they added in new templates...Nice work Dev's your back at square one..you created this monster of a mess and now you need to come up with another "quick fix".

It will be really funny if they remove control slot again. I think I will be running Cu + 5 to 10 Super Dragons depending on my mood. Any 2 of those GD Fire Breathe it's an instant kill anyways.

BTW my GD was able to kill 6 regular dragon without any vet/healing from me at all. By the time he got done killing the 6th dragon he was at 60% life.

Since they allowed ancient wyrm to be tamable (GD is stronger than AW), might as well go to extreme, make shadow wyrm tamable, I really wanted to have a necromancy double casting pet. And it will be a great pet for spawn too because it can Wither and also cast blood oath on boss too to increase damage.

 

[Cutblade]

It will be really funny if they remove control slot again. I think I will be running Cu + 5 to 10 Super Dragons depending on my mood. Any 2 of those GD Fire Breathe it's an instant kill anyways.

BTW my GD was able to kill 6 regular dragon without any vet/healing from me at all. By the time he got done killing the 6th dragon he was at 60% life.

Since they allowed ancient wyrm to be tamable (GD is stronger than AW), might as well go to extreme, make shadow wyrm tamable, I really wanted to have a necromancy double casting pet. And it will be a great pet for spawn too because it can Wither and also cast blood oath on boss too to increase damage.

Wow! Now thats a great deal of power for sure. I am just now GMing a GD since my comeback. I can't believe their power it's out of control. I can't imagine being a old school fencer fighting one..it is a definate group kill or tame for sure. But I really don't see a difference compaired to back in the day WarUltima.. I am sure you know where I am coming from..I remember killing the Efferets there up north of Delucia in that cave near the Dead village..You HAD to have 2 Dragons then to kill one..and if a Phoenix made its way down to you..man your dragons was toast if you didn't have another char there with vet. That was the spot everyone farmed the red daemon bone armor...that too is completely useless. But I am sure the Dev's feel like often with Tamers in pvp.. but o well..I am sure another quick fix is coming soon....

 

[Ailish]

I never said he had tracking. Human JOAT + conflag pots, not that stealth tamers are really a problem on our shard. Here they usually have the gumption to not be stealthers. Yes, it is a specialized character ... but then I would not take a bard (example) to steal sigs - using the right character for the job seems obvious to me.

And what I am saying is no one should expect that ONE CHARACTER should be the end-all be-all against every other template. If that is what your expectation is ... you are asking for god mode. Time to face that.

When I face a template that gives me trouble on one character ... I change to a different one with a different skill set. My chars are all considerably different, for that reason. It takes different templates for different situations.

 

[Harlequin]

"Using blue bards against tamers is not an exploit

I have to say that using a blue bard is not an exploit. It's totally valid game mechanics.

To people that says "then how come if red bards do the same thing, they are flagged". My opinion is that, being red means you are now a wanted murderer. It's one more penalty for being red, and more reason to stay blue. I am sorry to say that wonton murderers should not expect the same courtesy normally afforded to the blues to be extended to you.

As a tamer, you alone (even without your weakened pet) should be able to take out the bard if neither of you are hugging a guardzone.

Templates wise, - in theory, a tamer has devoted only 2-3 skills: taming/lore plus maybe vet in his template. The rest of the 4-5 skills can be uses on magery/eval/resists/med (or their warrior equivalents weaponskill/tactics/resists/chiv/bushido).

A bard has devoted the same 2-3 skills: music/discord plus maybe peace. He also has 4-5 remaining skills for the rest of his template.

So even with the tamers' pet taken out of the equation, the tamer still has the same remaining skill points to go toe to toe with the bard.

Further, note that the skillpoints invested into the barding skills are much less useful in a PvP situation compared to taming."


Wow...just wow. I would shoot this down in flames but the entire statement is wrong on so many levels I just wanted to sit it out by itself.

Unbelievable!

While I'm not a glutton for punishment, I am aware that my views are often clouded by my own bias, so maybe my view points are inaccurate.

More than that though, I am extremely keen to learn other points of view besides my own.

Would you care to explain which parts/levels of the "many levels" you consider wrong?

 

[WarUltima]

While I'm not a glutton for punishment, I am aware that my views are often clouded by my own bias, so maybe my view points are inaccurate.

More than that though, I am extremely keen to learn other points of view besides my own.

Would you care to explain which parts/levels of the "many levels" you consider wrong?

IMO blues barding is the only thing thats not unified with other flagging rules.
Red flags blue, red for sure is flagged. Blue flags on red, blue is flagged thus guards wont respond.

Flagging should go both ways.

Blues can bard a red without invoking flee timer nor do they turn gray. Yet when reds do the same they are now criminal and invoke a flee timer and can be guardwacked. This case the flagging rules are not unified.

But the deeper I think about it it could also working as intended with a minor "bug". When blues bard a red pet, althought blues dont flag to the red player they might have flagged the pet (the pet sees him as gray). When red does the samething, they flagged a BLUE pet and turns criminal therefore they can be gwacked.

The minor bug I mentioned means even tho the blues stayed blue to the red tamer they still undeniably "attacked" the red pet. THIS should incur a flee timer to the blue as well. Not like it really matters but it should work that way but currently it isnt.

At least thats what I assume what Widow was thinking. He probably has no idea about what's really happening behind the flagging but hes thinking if reds can become flagged doing the samething blues do then blues should also suffer the same result.

There are just too many uhallers here making comments without giving any "proof" or "valid arguments" to support their standpoints. They usually say "NO, because I said so". And thats just one of many examples of our typical uhallers.

 

[Harlequin]

That's why I always read your posts WarUltima, you always offer very insightful and well thought out viewpoints

Regarding the issue where blue bards aren't flagged, what you said could be exactly what's happening.

It does look like wonton murderers are really afforded less courtesies. If a pet gets flagged by a red, he calls the guards (ie calls whatever subroutines that marks the red as a criminal).

If the pet gets flagged by a blue player, he just retaliates (alright human, since you don't look like a red psychotic murderer, I'll give you a chance and won't call the guards, but I have you in my sights, you are grey to me now).



I am curious on how big an issue this is though. Can't the tamers attack the bard or move far enough away from the bard to break the discord? Unless both are using guardzone hugging tactics?

 

[WarUltima]

It's not a big deal but it's irritating due to unable to retaliate is blues is doing it solid planted inside guardzone.

At 120 peace/dicso skill the barding range is amazing I will say at least 16 tiles from where the bards standing and barding sometimes ignores LoS.

This issue really exists at gate fights. And back when faction cities had gzone blue non-faction bards can make the who area a living hell for faction tamers. The second the tamer got a bit too close to the stronghold exit their pets are discoded or peaced. A directly peaced pet will not follow command it will just sit there and it wont even recall with you sometimes...

I dont think its a big issue because at least rightnow there's no gzone in the cities and you can actually kill the bard.

 

[ATLPvPer]

Can anyone explain to me why a 200+ response thread, on an issue talked about CONSTANTLY on UHall, has not gotten a response from a developer or even a SINGLE statement or question in the five on friday??

 

[Wenchkin]

Can anyone explain to me why a 200+ response thread, on an issue talked about CONSTANTLY on UHall, has not gotten a response from a developer or even a SINGLE statement or question in the five on friday??

I get the impression that forum threads are easily ignored, but feedback forms get slightly more attention. Far from a guaranteed response, but that might be a better route to pursue.

Wenchy

 

[DOM]

There is something to add that is kinda halarious. Since DOMs return ive noticed that scam has completly left the shard and is in hiding. War Ultima? Who are you? Someone that posts and is scared to fight? I know who you really are neo, and DOM has complelty taken over the shard for the 2nd time i might add. Its funny how peon posts about killing DOM one vs one though i recall 12 other players chasing him at the time and peon died to the guards? rofl rofl. I would love to see DOM get pwned one vs one though im sorry ive never personally seen it. And last time i checked DOM was number 1 in faction points on sonoma....its too bad war ultima and vexxed are not even on the list. DOM in fact runs all pvp on sonoma and we love it when you post a whole pvp thread in trying to bring down his ultimate legacy. There is nobody on Sonoma that can take him plain and simple without a zerg. I will laugh daily as more of you continue to fall and or hide from playing the game. What a dominating pvper. I had to name myself after him becuase he feels its needless to post when he is already the top dog.

 

[WarUltima]

There is something to add that is kinda halarious. Since DOMs return ive noticed that scam has completly left the shard and is in hiding. War Ultima? Who are you? Someone that posts and is scared to fight? I know who you really are neo, and DOM has complelty taken over the shard for the 2nd time i might add. Its funny how peon posts about killing DOM one vs one though i recall 12 other players chasing him at the time and peon died to the guards? rofl rofl. I would love to see DOM get pwned one vs one though im sorry ive never personally seen it. And last time i checked DOM was number 1 in faction points on sonoma....its too bad war ultima and vexxed are not even on the list. DOM in fact runs all pvp on sonoma and we love it when you post a whole pvp thread in trying to bring down his ultimate legacy. There is nobody on Sonoma that can take him plain and simple without a zerg. I will laugh daily as more of you continue to fall and or hide from playing the game. What a dominating pvper. I had to name myself after him becuase he feels its needless to post when he is already the top dog.

WoW yet you made another account just so you can reply to me?

Actually DOM you better check the kill points again, the top score is a mule in YOUR zerg guild with almost 4k kill point actually top 4 kill points are all point horders from YOUR guild. I dont farm points sorry you beat me there. But I do have 3 characters on top 20s and two of them have more points than your character... maybe you need to call that point horder with 4k points and have him transfer 1000 or two to your character so you can cover your own mouth from spiting out all the false crap that you came up with.

DOM the last time I died I was killed alone on foot against 8 of you. You were killed by a single archer with 11 other friends next to you and you died inside the pile of 30 faction guards "on your side" again to ONE archer. AND he caught you on multiple screenshots when and showed how you were killed... Come on I know you are pissed it was 1v11 and you were on the "11's" side... AND you got caught on the screenies showing the process of your ownage with money/silver/kill point shot...... If I were you I would be quiet and I wouldnt even try to humuliate myself further by making another stratics account and complained. Actually if I died like you did, I would have quit UO.

WoW, I wasnt aware you were anyone special other than one of the many zerglings in your guild and was killed with 11 friends next to you by 1 archer. If your legacy is getting face planted in any shape or form possible while playing with other zerglings then yea... you win.

You even mentioned yourself, you guys had 12 people chasing Peon... he was along with UO Screenshot Utility ready to catch your action... he did get many of them AND the 5 points you gave him along with some silvers and insurance... You just made yourself look even worse than someone who got killed by a single archer with 11 other friends helping you.

This is your 6th stratics account. You still switches around accounts to post replies to "support" yourself? Poor soul...

For your info Calistie, you returned when Darkfall is released... we are hardcore PvP guild and many of us are attracted by Darkfall... we actually have most of our active members playing darkfall now... which is WHY there were only ONE OF US against 12 OF YOU when you were killed...

 

[popps]

If there is ANYTHING in PvP that needs an immediate fix ?

Yes, personally I think that in a game players should NOT need to gather tens upon tens upon tens of millions to buy high end gear, weapons and powerscrolls in order to be able to be competitive in PvP.

Such a high climbing slope might put off new players and scare them away from the game.

I think that a game that relies so much on bonuses to work will always be frustrating to new players.

Skill yes, but that's about it.

Gear, weapons and powerscrolls should be READILY available to all players so that any and all players in a REASONABLE time could be competitive even in high end PvP.

At least, that is my opinion.

 

[archite666]

If there is ANYTHING in PvP that needs an immediate fix ?

Yes, personally I think that in a game players should NOT need to gather tens upon tens upon tens of millions to buy high end gear, weapons and powerscrolls in order to be able to be competitive in PvP.

Such a high climbing slope might put off new players and scare them away from the game.

I think that a game that relies so much on bonuses to work will always be frustrating to new players.

Skill yes, but that's about it.

Gear, weapons and powerscrolls should be READILY available to all players so that any and all players in a REASONABLE time could be competitive even in high end PvP.

At least, that is my opinion.

That actually relates to what were saying, see if your a stealth tamer all you need is like an ecru ring, some hp regen armor and basic pvp supplies and really your good to go, you dont even really need 120s.

So there, take the short cut to success and become a stealth tamer and show everyone else how items and skill combined don't do anything for a greater dragon.

 

[Benny Lava]

even if you evil omen/para feilded the GD, the tamer would just log out, log in and whamo back in the action. i seriously don't see the devs paying any attention to this issue.

why don't they just undo the bushi & nujitsu nerf.

but still, i would still see the GD ninja/tamer come out on top even with constant evasion spamming....

some sort of a response from a dev would be nice, but i doubt it highly.

 

[WarUltima]

I just wish that they could undo the casting cancel special toggle thing. They can keep the tactics requirement all they want.

Given that I am used to time specials between spells there are simply too many possibilities right down the drain thats not even nearly close to overpowered... Its more than a "fun factor" nerf than a skill balancing act.

*crossing my fingers*

sigh I think I am fooling myself again.

 

[Benny Lava]

yeah the special toggle is crapo.

i agree keep the tactics requirement though.

back onto the bola/ninja/GD tamer. Funny this is, on the Freeshard 'uogamers' you are required to have gm tactics to use a bola.......hmmmmmmm.

even a freeshard is ontop of the issue re: bola/tamers....

 

[Clog|Mordain]

yeah the special toggle is crapo.

i agree keep the tactics requirement though.

back onto the bola/ninja/GD tamer. Funny this is, on the Freeshard 'uogamers' you are required to have gm tactics to use a bola.......hmmmmmmm.

even a freeshard is ontop of the issue re: bola/tamers....

Yeah, the GM tactics requirement for bolas is a great idea, it would really make them pesky stealth bola tamers change their play style. They'd have to drop either ninja or magery to be effective raelly. Drop ninja and they loose the ability to smoke bomb off and dog form off, and dropping magery leaves them with no sort of defensive what so ever making the character pretty much a sitting target.

DEVS DO SOMETHING!!