If there is ANYTHING in PvP that needs an immediate fix

[Harlequin]

Hm not sure I understand this statement.

The fireball can and will hit you from an EXTREMLY far distance. Mind you even if we agreed it was only 1 screen. For those of you that don't play mages, their casting range is alot less than 1 screen. So for something to hit you off screen is just unbelievable.

I can't count the times, iv circles around tamers trying to kill them, while getting wracked by the dragon, only to run away with plenty of hp, go to cast a G heal and be hit by the damn fireball.

For those newbie tamers that don't think there is anyway to synergise a greater dragons ability, try necromancy.

There is a certain tamer that will corpse skin/evil omen/all kill you all day. You know why? You know what kind of damage the firebreath alone does to you that that stuff on you? I was evil omened firebreathed the other day and I believe it did 85 with 70 fire. That is crazy. I have never been hit by the firebreath fire corpse skinned but I can only imagen the devastation.

Whoops, yeah, my posts are somwhat incoherent at times coz I would type halfway, get interrupted to do something else, then try to continue where I left off. Often haphazardly...

Right, what I meant was that there may be some confusion on what's going on here.

A) The graphical glitch where you see a fireball chasing your behind while you attempt to run away, is just a graphical glitch. In this case, yes, the fireball went off before the the player ran off screen. It's just that the animation is a bit slow.

You can tell if this is indeed what happened by looking at your HP as you are still running away from the fireball, it will show that you already took damage. This is different and easily distinguishable from the issue that the OP described:

B) Monsters can use ranged attacks off screen and even while the player has hidden himself. You can tell that it's a different issue because this time, the damage occurs after you have been hidden and ofter reveals you. So this time it's not just delayed animations like scenario A. The monster targetted you while you were hidden and the damage was done while you were hidden, revealing you at that time.

Scenario B is what the OP is referring to. As someone else said, I think it's a bug with how monster casting is programmed in general, and not meant as an anti-pvm measure to prevent PvM'ers from using cheap tactics by running offscreen.

The monster seem to have already determined what spell and target to cast on, then it delays the casting for 1 sec (in order to conform to the same spellcasting delay that players are faced with). And during that 1 sec delay, sometimes, they seem to be able to queue a second spell/breath weapon.

The correct sequence should be,
1) Determine target and spell,
2) Delay 1 sec
3) Monster freezes on the spot and cannot queue another breath/spell attack, only melee defend
4) After 1 sec is up, check if target is still in range
5) If yes, spell is cast on target. Otherwise, spell is aborted.

I suspect what's happening now is that step 3 and step 4 is not done. If they can fix this, I believe that PvM'ers and PvP'ers alike would rejoice.

 

[WarUltima]

Except monsters cast "doubles". Monsters ALWAYS casts 2 spells at a time. If it sees you as a valid target and queued to attack you with spell, you ARE going to hit by 2 spells on screen or not, in LoS or not, hidden or not.

And currently in the step 5 you mentioned pets do not abort a spell once it decided to cast on you, and is definitely skipping step 3 and 4.

I am not proud to PvP with pets. But when one of the main thing in UO PvP is to find the most powerful(perferably instant kill if possible) yet balanced with defensive templates... and the result? I turned my archer, evasion nerve striker and necro mage into their tamer variations, and not one but ALL of them are doing much much better in PvP.

There are no other 2 skills that only require about 200 points total other than taming lore can provide the rediculous power in both offensive AND defensive (best defense is to KILL).

My mage no longer trying to stay away from dexer, he try to stick to me, *put pets on him* harm/lighting you will see the dexer wants to stay away from you as far as possible.

My bushi dexer when getting dumped on by a mage, nerve strike *all kill* and the mage die or runs away. If I whiff *evasion* *evade* *evade* *evade* ASSUMING both pets didnt cast any spell to interrupt the mage (not possible).

My archer... nuff said. Simple specials like dismount shot moving shot chaining that wouldnt kill anyone decent became one of the most deadly combo ever in UO history because there are two very powerful pets also lighting that poor guy on foot up. Mages try to stop and gheal before they are gonna die has to gamble on not getting interrupted by all the spells the pets are casting and the hit fire ball moving shots than I am also unloading, good luck casting invis (6th circle spell) while pets are casting and me shooting...

I really dont want to give anymore LIVE EXAMPLES of the absolutely ownage and I dont mind if I am getting nerfed, because I am not insane/biased/stupid and I see each and every single one of my PvP tamer characters overpowered.

 

[Wenchkin]

What actually led me to realise how overpowered tamers can be was just experiencing PvM and PvP with a range of mostly PvM templates. Anyone who's tamed for a few years should realise the difference in power that new pets have, and have the savvy to know that in the hands of a skilled player a PvP template is nasty. You don't need to be good at PvP yourself, just know what your pets can handle in comparison to their predacessors.

Sadly, I think too many tamers these days are looking for the biggest guns and caring less about the UO community around them than for protecting their own powerful position.

Wenchy

 

[Farsight]

Which brings up the original question again (though somewhat rephrased).

The PvPers have stated that casting and breathing from miles away is overpowered.
The PvMers, through their behavior have stated pretty much the same.
The tamers (at least some of them) ADMIT that they use these abilities to their advantage when they can.
And even the Devs have stated that it needs a "good looking at." (town hall meeting, forget which one)

So the question is, what is going to be done about casting from great distances, about super powered firebreath (DWH and GD specifically) and other pet/monster issues?

 

[Harlequin]

Which brings up the original question again (though somewhat rephrased).

The PvPers have stated that casting and breathing from miles away is overpowered.
The PvMers, through their behavior have stated pretty much the same.
The tamers (at least some of them) ADMIT that they use these abilities to their advantage when they can.
And even the Devs have stated that it needs a "good looking at." (town hall meeting, forget which one)

So the question is, what is going to be done about casting from great distances, about super powered firebreath (DWH and GD specifically) and other pet/monster issues?

I hope they fix the range check in step 4 first. It really is a bug. That should hopefully fix 1 of the major reasons why PvP'ers and PvM'ers are complaining about pets and spellcasting mobs.

And maybe double the HP for players at the same time.

For tamers that use spell casting pets, I admit this would nerf them a little. However, for the PvM tamers, remember that spellcasting mobs have the same restriction, so although your pet's DPS is lowered, the same is happening to your opponent. It evens out.

For PvP tamers, constantly being whacked by one hit kill combos are really not fun if you are on the receiving end. I know there are other templates that can do the same thing, but not as easily as tamers, because in addition to the bypassed range check, you are also 2-man tag-teaming against your opponent (tamers can initiate their own attacks to complement their pets' attack, poison/para, bola, bleed/mortal etc). Even without the range check bug, it is already very difficult to get away from.

 

[archite666]

Ok we got em on the ropes, now we just need to hold the line until we get some results!

 

[Nyses]

The effective way to code for it would be simple. If a tamed pet attacks a player, apply the said restrictions. If a tamed pet attacks a monster, don't apply said restrictions. If an untamed monsters attacks a player, don't apply restrictions. This doesn't seem like it would take a whole lot of effort, or time.

Or, why not just make Pets follow the same rules for targeting and distance checks as players, once the creature has been tamed, and thus becomes a "pet".

This way, wild Dragons and others would remain the way they are now for PvM, but once tamed and used in PvP, they have the range of player mages.

 

[daisuke]

all the tamer complainers are looking at the pvp tamer issue in the wrong way. they're asking for all the wrong fixes. they're asking for huge uncertain rebalances that the devs just dont have the time or budget to devote to. there is a simple, obvious fix that meets in the middle for everyone. it makes the people who want pvm taming to remain the same and the people who want pvp taming to be effective yet fair happy. this nerf has happened for all templates except tamers. it is the only remaining major imbalance in UO pvp.

just cap thier melee hits to 35 like all other pvp non magic damage and thier breath damage to the same as a meteor swarm. its a one day server side fix for the devs and a perfectly explainable and fair pvp balance that needs to happen that noone will complain about. its just ridiculous that noone has suggested it before...

i dont agree that the range on thier breath weapon is broken personally, there is just a very long delay on it, so its actually being casted on you in range and going off when you're far away. a pvp cap on it would completely nullify the issue with this.

this is coming from someone who has an archer tamer as well, and i would love to see this fix. i have suggested it to the uo.com feedback form several times through all relative channels. i suggest all who read this do as well

 

[WarUltima]

@daisuki

Damage capping has been suggested many times before actually.
And agaist popular belief there IS a dmg cap for fire breathe which is at 200. The 200 translates into 60dmg at 70resist (75dmg with evil omen) 80dmg at 60(100dmg w/omen) corpsed to 50 fire resist the cap dmg became 100 (125 dmg with omen).

There is a cap but the cap is outrageous currently. About double of what a regular player can do. For a max di archer even with concussion blow and double proc still has no way to reach 60dmg to 70resist.

I also agree with pvp dmg cap personally even some kind of minor bandage fix will help.
Glad I am not the only PvP tamer who sees and admits the overpowerness we have over everything else and is willing to take a nerf for the game's sake.

Again, if you play a real pvp tamer and isnt "delusional" and "play a tamer right" you know better that you have too much power. Also no other templates are capable of such ease to pvm AND pvp successfully.

 

[archite666]

Well I think the majority of us are just throwing out ideas, as long as they get nerfed we are good.

Remove fireball
cap damage at like 30
remove bleed

but thats just a fix for dragons, the tamer in general needs fixed.

ninja forms need to take a control slot, period.
smoke bombs, and or stealth could use a little looking into.

delay between hiding and stealthing

or at least make smoke bombs cost 10 mana.

If there was like a 3 second delay between hiding and stealthing, that would solve the entire stealth problem.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

all the tamer complainers are looking at the pvp tamer issue in the wrong way. they're asking for all the wrong fixes. they're asking for huge uncertain rebalances that the devs just dont have the time or budget to devote to. there is a simple, obvious fix that meets in the middle for everyone. it makes the people who want pvm taming to remain the same and the people who want pvp taming to be effective yet fair happy. this nerf has happened for all templates except tamers. it is the only remaining major imbalance in UO pvp.

just cap thier melee hits to 35 like all other pvp non magic damage and thier breath damage to the same as a meteor swarm. its a one day server side fix for the devs and a perfectly explainable and fair pvp balance that needs to happen that noone will complain about. its just ridiculous that noone has suggested it before...

i dont agree that the range on thier breath weapon is broken personally, there is just a very long delay on it, so its actually being casted on you in range and going off when you're far away. a pvp cap on it would completely nullify the issue with this.

this is coming from someone who has an archer tamer as well, and i would love to see this fix. i have suggested it to the uo.com feedback form several times through all relative channels. i suggest all who read this do as well

If balance is what is being sought (and its not...its actually preferential treatment for certain templates) then why not just cap all PvP damage to 35?

Speedhack Archer Boy X hits me for 35 damage per shot max, my pets hit him for 35 damage per hit, a mage hits a sammy for 35, and a sammy hits a mage for 35. That is balance.

But nerfing one class to the point of uselessness is what most of the complainers want. They want to still do 60+ damage per shot, but they don't want any other template to be able to do it.

I am all for nerfing pets in PvP, as long as all other classes/templates suffer the same nerf, otherwise...where is the balance that so many are whining for?

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Well I think the majority of us are just throwing out ideas, as long as they get nerfed we are good.

Remove fireball
cap damage at like 30
remove bleed

but thats just a fix for dragons, the tamer in general needs fixed.

ninja forms need to take a control slot, period.
smoke bombs, and or stealth could use a little looking into.

delay between hiding and stealthing

or at least make smoke bombs cost 10 mana.

If there was like a 3 second delay between hiding and stealthing, that would solve the entire stealth problem.

Translation:"Nerf everything I don't use".

 

[ColterDC]

She's baaaaaaaaaaaack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[SUPRsalad]

I just wanted to throw my hat in here on the side of the 'getting casted on from two screens away by pets is BS' team. Not to mention getting nailed by 50dmg fireballs BEHIND walls INSIDE a house...

Theres other stuff to be messed with of coarse, there always will be.

But this one is way out of whack. I never complained about much pvp imbalance, usually theres a counter-template for most of these gimp-types.

Its not even that its imbalanced, its that its outright bugged. Glitched. etc.

immediate attention please!

 

[Skwiz]

If balance is what is being sought (and its not...its actually preferential treatment for certain templates) then why not just cap all PvP damage to 35?

Speedhack Archer Boy X hits me for 35 damage per shot max, my pets hit him for 35 damage per hit, a mage hits a sammy for 35, and a sammy hits a mage for 35. That is balance.

But nerfing one class to the point of uselessness is what most of the complainers want. They want to still do 60+ damage per shot, but they don't want any other template to be able to do it.

I am all for nerfing pets in PvP, as long as all other classes/templates suffer the same nerf, otherwise...where is the balance that so many are whining for?

You mean like.. How a necro mage can do the same as a fireball damage with explosion flamestrike (ONLY if they are cursed and corpseskined) AND can be disrupted on both spells by any negative affect? Or like how a dexxer can hit very hard but is affected by DCI, parry, and Disarm?

So yeah.. next time a Dragon is going to firebreath i'll just weaken him.. oh wait.. I'll use my Parry and Dci.. Oh Wait! I'll Disarm him!! Hrm maybe i could dismount him, or Apple his curses off, Or use Faction Bandaids?

See the pattern there?

 

[ColterDC]

I am all for nerfing pets in PvP, as long as all other classes/templates suffer the same nerf, otherwise...where is the balance that so many are whining for?

Let's look at the last 3-4 years mmm k?

AI Nerfed
WoD Nerfed
Evasion Nerfed
Perfection Nerfed
Mages Nerfed (Special Move Toggle)
Necros Nerfed (Apples/Talismans)

A dozen other things I don't feel like taking the time to write.


The Bottom line;

Strength of Pets = 0 Nerfs

Pets need to be brought into adjustment like so many other overpowered things.

 

[WarUltima]

She's baaaaaaaaaaaack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lol I knew she would be back after saying she's out of the thread completely. She did it before too.

For the very least I didn't complain about melee damage by itself. Since she seem to be wearing 30s resist suit and get nailed by dexers a lot, and I like to give realistic live proof how she is wrong for many aspects again I will challenge her to a test on TC.

I will put on all 70s armor and she can make a 120 anatomy 120 tactics 100di archer with a crossbow of her choice (you get a heartwood kit with like 10k charges there) and I will let her shoot me and if she can manage to deal out at least 60dmg in 1 shot within as many shots as she wants I will apologize for any info I've given out that "she" didn't like.

Then she can come to my shard and I will let her put on all 70 suits and I will use my GD on her and I will gurantee that each and every single of fire breathe that hit her all 70 resist character would be 60 damage. Then I will curse her and then each and every single fire breathe would do 80.

I challenge her against her false accusation of archers being capable of doing 60+dmg in ONE shot to all 70resist, and I will prove everything I said in my posts being the truth.

Morgana quit all the talking let's do some real ingame test and see who's been giving out bounch of bull**** and who's speaking based on the truth.

 

[archite666]

Translation:"Nerf everything I don't use".

Nerf everything I dont use? you mean taming and stealth? way to fail.

I own 6 accounts friend. Two of them are tamers. Unlike you I have the pvp skill to play every template there is.

Quit crying because you only have the skill to play one template. You constant complaining here is only a testiment to what were all saying: Tamers will always come here and defend their massively overpowered templates.

For the record, my characters are as follows (including soulstones)

Cash, Mage,necro,parry,scribe,bushido,wrestling,eval,med,SS

Gabriel, archery,swords,bushido,chiv,tactics,med,necro,SS

Nessa, taming,lore,vet,hide,stealth,ninja,

Aphrodite, taming,lore,vet,mage,med,lockpick,carto,hide,stealth,ninja

Je'neneve, fencing,poisoning,hiding,stealth,ninja,tactics,bushido

Siege Pride, every crafting skill besides alchemy and scribe

Oh yeah, I'm also the commanding lord of the shadowlords faction on Siege. And I'm the guild leader of the guild that runs that faction. Oh and I pvped on atlantic for two years before coming to Siege, where people like: sakie, crunch, arden, speedy, black rain have played. I forget which ones are well known but I know some of them have some crazy reps.

So the point I'm getting at here, I believe I'm pretty well qualified to speak on pvp from the prospective of someone that has done it....ALOT.

 

[HD2300]

Sorry the priority is not on stopping speed hacking, scripting or firebreath from 2 screens away, it is on redoing the loot tables on for all monsters. Please post again in 6 months.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Oh yeah, I'm also the commanding lord of the shadowlords faction on Siege. And I'm the guild leader of the guild that runs that faction. Oh and I pvped on atlantic for two years before coming to Siege, where people like: sakie, crunch, arden, speedy, black rain have played. I forget which ones are well known but I know some of them have some crazy reps.

He's humble too folks!! What a guy!!

 

[Pink Floyd]

I've had pets cast spells on me from one end of the new bridge in Despise to the island (there is no line of sight on the bridge for more than one tile, period.)

Seems a bit ridiculous to me!

edit: I DO play a tamer mage from time to time and I still think this is ridiculous.

 

[archite666]

Yeah, I reached my bullsh!t quotient and decide to come back and play with you guys some more.

You reached your quotient? Does that mean your done? I mean once youv reached it, that means you quit right?

Lets check the numbers...

Who thinks tamers are fine?
You.

Who thinks tamers are way overpowered?
Everyone else that plays UO and actually cares about pvp balance.

Hm maybe we should have a recount?

And yes I posted what current positions I hold in order to demonstrate I have my finger in the "pvp pie."

Whereas the only thing you have demonstrated is that you play a tamer, and (by your own admission) your not that good at it, so tamers are not overpowered. Your reasoning is flawed to the core.

 

[WarUltima]

It is rediculous that they nerfed my WoD AI Archer. It was perfectly balanced and you losers whined and got it nerfed!!!111

WoD AI archer was actually underpowered because they disarm me and I stood still waiting for my rearm confusion time to go away and they hit me EVERY SINGLE TIME so I died. That's the proof of people can still stand toe to toe with my WoD AI Archer and kill me quick so I wasnt overpowered at all. it's people like you guys who prefer certain treatments against certain class!!11

I am done listening to all your pointless whinings I am out.

*comes back 5 posts later*

Yea I am still waiting for her to take on my invitation to test things for real (you know real facts and not "dexers hit me one time and I die" type of laughable imagination). Against one of her false argument stating archers can consistantly hit someone with all 70s resist for 60+ damage. My dragon can consistantly dish out 60 fire breathe against someone with all 70s suit btw...

 

[WarUltima]

Since she wont take my challenge I took some screenies of myself getting eaten by my puny underpowered pet...

Introducing my lesser dragon "I Am Underpowered" pre-buffed.

Then I buffed her up

Then I wanted it to Fire breathe me so I attacked it and of course it did what I wanted it to do. (Actually he instantly cast Fire Breathe + Lighting + Magic Arrow on me and I was able to take a screenshot)... Enjoy....

As you can all see my little cutie has 1037hp pre-buff and a whooping 1110 hp after buff. At 158 stam means the pet swings at 1.25sec/swing same as cap player swing speed and stam also determine how fast the pet can move. at 158 it was impossible to get away unless I give up casting heals completely.... ouch...

btw i died twice (and got stated) before I can catch the last screenie, I died due to melee + bleed + fs + fs + fire breathe amd I tried to catch that screenie with damage of 35, 12, 25, 24, 60 on my screen but when I died the screen blacked out and you cannot see the fire breathe dmg (which killed me) so I had to try a second time got owned pretty fast and tried again and finally for it... the process of take the screenshots took about 2 minutes. Oh you can see one of my corpse also....

I know my cold resist isnt at 70 but EVERYTHING ELSE ARE. The screenshot didnt have harm dmg and even if it harmed me at that distance in the screenie it will do 1 dmg anyways... and pets dont mind blast so dont even try Morgana... Fire Breathe did exactly 60 dmg thru my 70 fire resist...

I dont BS, and I am willing to provide anything I need to prove that I am not just making **** up.

Anyways that's an INSTANT 80 dmg combo, imaging the two spells were something like FS or Ebolt (in that cast it will be a 110+ dmg instant combo.) I dont have a screenie for melee hit but thru the test it did about 33 to 35 a hit thru my 70 resists... ALSO you can see me not bled (more dmg) and it didnt melee me (it's getting better and better eh =P)

Assuming I got hit right off the bat, and got bled and it cast magic arrow and lighting with fire breathe on me it will do at least 125 damage and that's only counting first bleed tick and the spells were merely a 1st and 4th circle spells.... You get the idea...

ALSO it proves that pets do DOUBLE CAST spells WHILE doing fire breathe... Got most of my points proven in one screenie, your turn Morgana. ^^

 

[Connor_Graham]

Who thinks tamers are way overpowered?
Everyone else that plays UO and actually cares about pvp balance.

Including Trammies that don't ever PvP, yet can still see that they're overpowered.

 

[WarUltima]

Including Trammies that don't ever PvP, yet can still see that they're overpowered.

Naa there's no way GDs are overpowered... not like they can have over 1k hp and doing tons of damage instantly... oh wait...

 

[SUPRsalad]

k. we've established our point. The post is about PVP. Clearly Morg is out of her element.

Pets are overpowered,
and BESIDES being overpowered, I just want to reiterate my point:

THEY ARE BUGGED! THEY DON"T SEEM TO NEED A LINE OF SIGHT TO CAST/BREATH FIREBALLS!

somebody,
crawl down there,
and,
FIX IT!

 

[SUPRsalad]

and since it seems we need to mention our 'pvp credentials'
with an account over 100 months old:

im the guy that knows ever champspawn/t2a tellie by the back of my hand..
im the guy with the 110 dmg explo fs pain spk combo.
im the guy who couldn't find his way around ilsh if my life depended on it.
im the guy whos only blue character has 400 skill points to his name..
im the guy who can count the number of times hes done a peerless on one hand..
im also one of the guys who heads up SUPR the greatest pvp guild on pac of all time!!!!! (go ahead and flame me now)

Im not going to lie, I laugh my a$% off when our pets do it to other people, but seriously, its ridiculous. I hereby state, that if you defend the pets in regard to pvp, you clearly know NOTHING about pvp...

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Have bonding severed if a pet attacks another player. PvM tamers would be able to keep their pets, but the risk would be complete loss if they attack a non-aggressive player...la

 

[Yalp]

geez... another post with the same few posters stating the same few points over and over again. I see anyone who dares to think otherwise has been bashed till they dropped out of this thread... I"ll just state for any dev that happens upon this and uses this thread as a basis to act....


...there are hundreds of posts in the other threads detailing why greaters don't need nerfing, actual numbers of peeps playing tamers in pvp, how to use proper strategy, details on dropping a tamer and rendering the GD or DWH ineffective, and what can be done to bring actual TRUE balance to pvp (think wiping all illegal 3rd party programs for a start). I would encourage you to check all sides of this issue before acting in a unilateral fashion in order to appease the same few voices that have started thread after thread on these boards.

.... and yes, Siege is a completely different animal.

 

[Connor_Graham]

...there are hundreds of posts in the other threads detailing why greaters don't need nerfing,

Yep, and they have tactics listed too. Tactics such as "run away" and "travel in groups".

Yep, they're balanced all right...../end sarcasm

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

ALSO it proves that pets do DOUBLE CAST spells WHILE doing fire breathe... Got most of my points proven in one screenie, your turn Morgana. ^^

I never said they didn't. I said this was as designed.

Have you ever PvM'ed before?

Casting creatures were buffed to throw multiple spells as far back as LBR. Are you just new, or did you really just not know that?

They cannot, and should not, write an entirely different set of rules for monsters casting in PvP and PvM...that's probably not even possible, and before you ask me if I am a dev again, the answer is YES. I don't work for Mythic, and far be it from me to tell them how to write their code, but doing what you are asking for would be a nightmare. It would probably require having to change so much code that they would need to completely re-write the core code of UO, and for what? To shut up a few whiney PvPers that don't want to change the way they play the game...ever?

@ Cash...

I reached my BS quotient meaning I had read enough BS in this thread that I had to finally come back and say something.


Let me also add this...


I have decided that some of you are right. Pets in UO are overpowered in PvP. But its not for the reason you think it is. Its because most PvPers, apparently, don't understand that they can move. There is no reason you should be dying to pets in PvP unless you are just plain slow. So I guess the slow pets, with their bad AI, and ability to get stuck on small rocks and twigs are just too much for PvPers in UO to handle.

So instead of breaking the game for PvMers, why not just cap damage in PvP and be done with it?

Oh wait, you don't want to a damage cap. That would mean you would be on a level playing field with everyone else.

Oh well.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

I have decided that some of you are right.

Of course I am...la

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Of course I am...la

Eat your sammich!!

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

It's too early. Gotta wait another hour before lunch...la

 

[Old Man of UO]

It's too early. Gotta wait another hour before lunch...la

Heh... was just thinking you are waiting for some innocent first grader to walk by with his lunch to steal it... the respawn rate for first graders must be an hour then.

 

[Wenchkin]

I have decided that some of you are right. Pets in UO are overpowered in PvP. But its not for the reason you think it is. Its because most PvPers, apparently, don't understand that they can move. There is no reason you should be dying to pets in PvP unless you are just plain slow. So I guess the slow pets, with their bad AI, and ability to get stuck on small rocks and twigs are just too much for PvPers in UO to handle.

So you think that non tamers lack understanding in how to deal with tamers... And those tamers who see the power of their templates and pets are simply crazy I guess... Well that's a different perspective if nothing else.

Here's another one, and I think this could be significantly closer to the truth. Maybe the problem is actually that some of the tamers resisting balance are the ones who lack the understanding. Perhaps it's folks like yourself who are unaware of how powerful they and their pets are, or how to use them. So you feel you need to be kept as you are because you can't think how to handle your tamers/pets otherwise. I think we both know that you're fully aware of how strong you are, but you just don't want your template or pets balanced. It's not just about how pets cast and their range, you just don't want to give one inch of ground to the other side.

So instead of breaking the game for PvMers, why not just cap damage in PvP and be done with it?

How on earth is the game being broken for PvMers? A PvM tamer has a long way to go before they could be considered broken. They're far from being balanced nevermind broken heh. There are days when I wonder if you're taking out the same pets the rest of us use, or whether you've just forgotten what the old pets are capable of in comparison.

Capping damage in PvP doesn't bother me. But I don't think it's the only or most logical way to fix the problems with tamers. And you'd have to find a way of dealing with all the different pet combos from 1 greater to 5 pack critters. On the face of it, I'd suggest that it could annoy PvMers in Fel, because they'd use one combo of pets to do the PvMing, but that combo could prove a real liability for PvP if they got attacked. Or vice versa. It's easy to say capping damage is the solution, but in practice it might not be what you hope for.

Wenchy

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Heh... was just thinking you are waiting for some innocent first grader to walk by with his lunch to steal it... the respawn rate for first graders must be an hour then.

lol..nice one

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

So you think that non tamers lack understanding in how to deal with tamers... And those tamers who see the power of their templates and pets are simply crazy I guess... Well that's a different perspective if nothing else.

No. I never called anyone "crazy". I don't think name calling is needed here, and would rather not result to it, but I will respond in kind to anyone that so chooses to engage in it.

Here's another one, and I think this could be significantly closer to the truth. Maybe the problem is actually that some of the tamers resisting balance are the ones who lack the understanding. Perhaps it's folks like yourself who are unaware of how powerful they and their pets are, or how to use them. So you feel you need to be kept as you are because you can't think how to handle your tamers/pets otherwise. I think we both know that you're fully aware of how strong you are, but you just don't want your template or pets balanced. It's not just about how pets cast and their range, you just don't want to give one inch of ground to the other side.

I know that I spent almost a year working on the taming skill so that I could enjoy the power that comes with it. I know that I have sampires in my guild that macroed their skills to GM+ in less than a week that are just as effective in PvM as I am as a tamer. I know that pets are powerful, that's why I became a tamer. They were powerful all the way back to the beta. They have been powerful since the launch...and in my opinion, they should remain that way...otherwise, what is the point of having them at all?

I don't care if my template is "balanced". I feel that the lack of pet AI and lack of ability to adequately control what spells my pet can cast is enough of a "balance" already.

For example, a guildmate and I were in Fel just a few days ago. I had my Greater Dragon with me. She is a tough Greater Dragon, but when two reds jumped us, they did exactly what they should have done, they paralyze fielded the GD because she got stuck on a shrub and ignored it, killed me, then chased my friend off and ganked her 2 on 1. Sure, they couldn't kill my Greater, but who cares, they killed the players...which is the point, right? Was I mad? No. It was rather amusing considering all the whining you read from a handful of so-called "l337" PvPers here on UHALL how two unknowns just ran up, did what they had to do, and kicked our a$$es easily. It really made wonder why the posters in threads like this one don't just do what those guys did. But I know the answer to that...that would require them to alter their tactics, maybe their template, and they don't want to do that. They want the game to be tailor written to their chosen templates, and will whine endlessly until they get it.

Hence why I stopped responding to it.

How on earth is the game being broken for PvMers? A PvM tamer has a long way to go before they could be considered broken. They're far from being balanced nevermind broken heh. There are days when I wonder if you're taking out the same pets the rest of us use, or whether you've just forgotten what the old pets are capable of in comparison.

Which old pets? Dragons, WWs, nightmares?

I use them frequently. What is your point? As the content of the game has gotten more difficult (Peerless bosses, Doom, etc.) the pets have had to get tougher to compensate. I really didn't care of the above changes, but I can't expect to use my regular 3 slot dragon from 1998 and be competitive against peerless bosses added in 2003-2005, can I? I had to get new pets...I was willing to adapt.

Capping damage in PvP doesn't bother me. But I don't think it's the only or most logical way to fix the problems with tamers. And you'd have to find a way of dealing with all the different pet combos from 1 greater to 5 pack critters. On the face of it, I'd suggest that it could annoy PvMers in Fel, because they'd use one combo of pets to do the PvMing, but that combo could prove a real liability for PvP if they got attacked. Or vice versa. It's easy to say capping damage is the solution, but in practice it might not be what you hope for.

Wenchy

I am just saying that capping damage is easier than trying to re-code half the game just to satisfy a minority of the players (yes, PvPers are in the minority whether we want to admit it or not). Changing the way tamables cast would affect PvM, if it could be done without changing the way all creatures cast, which would pretty much break everything in PvM. Unfortunately, PvP and PvM are not really two completely seperate games, even if that is what it may feel like sometimes.

I still think that if more PvPers would PvM once in a while, they would learn how to fight casting monsters better, and would therefore understand the way they work better. That would at least reduce the whining about casting and breath weapons from "off screen". That's not a bug folks, its just how the game works.

 

[Wenchkin]

No. I never called anyone "crazy". I don't think name calling is needed here, and would rather not result to it, but I will respond in kind to anyone that so chooses to engage in it.

I didn't accuse you of calling anyone crazy, nor was I planning to do that myself. It was merely a word in a sentence, nothing more...

I know that I spent almost a year working on the taming skill so that I could enjoy the power that comes with it. I know that I have sampires in my guild that macroed their skills to GM+ in less than a week that are just as effective in PvM as I am as a tamer. I know that pets are powerful, that's why I became a tamer. They were powerful all the way back to the beta. They have been powerful since the launch...and in my opinion, they should remain that way...otherwise, what is the point of having them at all?

I've lost track of the time I've spent training tamers or pets, but training time doesn't justify remaining overpowered. Overpowered is dull, lacks challenge and requires minimal skill. That really doesn't appeal to me on any level.

I've got some fast trained chars among my tamer collection, but in honesty I find most of them boring. I've used my fisher chef more than my sammy. And we're talking about balance here, not castration. You can do a lot to balance tamers and still give them enough strength for hunting. Why on earth would I ask for changes if they would nuke most of my characters? The difference between you and I is that you seem more interested in the power aspect of taming.

I don't care if my template is "balanced". I feel that the lack of pet AI and lack of ability to adequately control what spells my pet can cast is enough of a "balance" already.

I have to disagree with you there then. The lack of pet AI and spell control is not a balance. If it was, all the tamers here would agree that we shouldn't be balanced further, not saying that kills are too easy and pets are too strong.

For example, a guildmate and I were in Fel just a few days ago. I had my Greater Dragon with me. She is a tough Greater Dragon, but when two reds jumped us, they did exactly what they should have done, they paralyze fielded the GD because she got stuck on a shrub and ignored it, killed me, then chased my friend off and ganked her 2 on 1. Sure, they couldn't kill my Greater, but who cares, they killed the players...which is the point, right? Was I mad? No. It was rather amusing considering all the whining you read from a handful of so-called "l337" PvPers here on UHALL how two unknowns just ran up, did what they had to do, and kicked our a$$es easily. It really made wonder why the posters in threads like this one don't just do what those guys did. But I know the answer to that...that would require them to alter their tactics, maybe their template, and they don't want to do that. They want the game to be tailor written to their chosen templates, and will whine endlessly until they get it.

Nobody has said that GDs can't be killed. Or that all tamers will win every fight they enter. I lose fights too, we all do. I live in Fel, so again, why would I ask for something that would nuke most of my chars? Being killable doesn't equal balanced though, and that's a point I think is being missed here. You can kill a speedhacker if only you catch up with him, but I don't think anyone would argue he was balanced.

Mind you, how killable you and your pets are depends on your setup. Were you on gimplates or a normal PvM template? If you're only dabbling in PvP, you're very different to a sharpened up PvPer using a tamer and every gimp tactic in the book. Someone fighting daily who knows the tricks and has his kit and pets set up just the way he needs them, is a world away from a PvMer or even casual PvP player.

Which old pets? Dragons, WWs, nightmares?

I use them frequently. What is your point? As the content of the game has gotten more difficult (Peerless bosses, Doom, etc.) the pets have had to get tougher to compensate. I really didn't care of the above changes, but I can't expect to use my regular 3 slot dragon from 1998 and be competitive against peerless bosses added in 2003-2005, can I? I had to get new pets...I was willing to adapt.

Well I've run round doom with old school pets many many times. Folks took pets in to peerless before greater drags and dread mares arrived. So that's really no justification for the amount of power the devs gave us with dreads and GDs. They could be balanced reasonably and still be fit for purpose. And I don't see anything I've suggested which would prevent you or anyone else from still hunting doom and peerless bosses with your pets. If I did, I wouldn't suggest it.

I am just saying that capping damage is easier than trying to re-code half the game just to satisfy a minority of the players (yes, PvPers are in the minority whether we want to admit it or not). Changing the way tamables cast would affect PvM, if it could be done without changing the way all creatures cast, which would pretty much break everything in PvM. Unfortunately, PvP and PvM are not really two completely seperate games, even if that is what it may feel like sometimes.

It wouldn't break everything in PvM if monsters and pets were all changed to follow player casting rules. If monsters were changed in the same way as pets they would counter each other nicely and those annoying low end casters would prove far less deadly than they are now. I still remember my first champ with autocasting imps, and not favourably

Don't get me wrong, casting speed isn't my first choice. Range I can agree with, because I can't think of many instances where I want my pets casting off screen. But if you look at the list of suggestions I made, casting was one of I think 6 options...

I still think that if more PvPers would PvM once in a while, they would learn how to fight casting monsters better, and would therefore understand the way they work better. That would at least reduce the whining about casting and breath weapons from "off screen". That's not a bug folks, its just how the game works.

I think you're being a little presumptuous in assuming PvPers don't know how to kill monsters or pets. We're not talking about just the pets either, we're talking about them with an owner. How many monsters do you know that team up and one logs out to save the other? That'd be darn funny as you got to the end of Oaks and his girly logs herself out to keep him from dying

Wenchy

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

One thing I will definitely agree on is that the log out/log in thing needs to be changed. The pet should have to follow the same agro timer as everything else. If a player cannot recall in the 'heat of battle' then a pet should not be retrieved by this method either. I have no issue with that.

By "Gimplate" I am not really sure what you mean. Is that pretty much a template you don't use yourself and is therefore considered 'gimp'?

My template is pretty much mage/tamer...has been been for about 9 years now. Taming, Lore, Vet, Magery, Med, Eval Int all at or close to 120.

Like I said before, I don't PvP daily. Got really tired of being ganked when there is no real reward for doing it. Not to say I won't go out and kill (or die) if I feel like it, I just don't get as much out of it as I did when there was just Sosaria, and no Fel/Tram.

I think you are dead wrong about the effect that nerfing all casting creatures would have on PvM. It's all pretty much too easy with too little risk now. The reason most players die to mobs anymore is spell chaining, and missing a heal or something. Peerless and Champs are different, but I just don't see how nerfing regular mobs is a good idea. Archers and mages would pretty much become completely invulnerable in PvM if mobs had to follow player casting rules.

Again, I don't see the purpose in breaking PvM to fix PvP, when the easier solution is to just cap all damage in PvP. That pretty much stops the whining because no one can say 'Her dragon did 80 pts of damage to me, while I could only do 60 pts of damage to her'. It becomes 'we did 35 damage to each other' and no one can complain. Well, there will still be people complaining because none of this does anything to address ganking, speedhacks, script-farmed gold bought weapons and armor, stump hacks, etc. etc.

But hey, like I said, I don't PvP much anymore, and if the devs cave in and make tamers useless in PvP, I just won't PvP that much less. No worries. I can find other things to do. I just don't want them F'ing up taming in general because a few so-called 'l33t' PvPers got their butts handed to them by a few tamers.

 

[archite666]

Everything for the most part has been nerfed, even concussion will probably be getting nerfed.

Also thank you for proving my point, Miss iv played the same pvp template for 9 years.

Try running a dismount tamer or a ninja tamer, thats where the real power is.
I mean come on, mage tamer is a template lacking hardly any synergy.

Either dismount them for your dragon, or stay hidden from them while walking around in animal form.

Let me guess, you dont run max hp/HPR do you?

Since you don't you really have no say in what were talking about, just because your not taking full advantage to this tamer business doest mean others arnt.

At one time on Siege, youd go outside and all you would see were greater dragons being led my their stealthing masters.

 

[Omnius]

pets should not follow their stealthing masters unless they have 80 herding.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Since you don't you really have no say in what were talking about, just because your not taking full advantage to this tamer business doest mean others arnt.

I never said that certain tamer templates were not overpowered. Have you ever seen me say anything about stealth tamers? My opinion on that is, once your pet loses sight of you for more than say, 2 seconds, it should forget its command and stop attacking its target...at least in PvP. I also agree that animal forms, either from Ninjitsu or Tallies should require a control slot to prevent people from using a Greater Dragon and moving at mounted speeds.

My point in all of this is that the fix to the problem is not to nerf taming across the board, and that is exactly what many have been calling for. Does the fireball damage from GD/DM need to be lowered in PvP...probably, but there are other things that need to be lowered as well.

I am not as unreasonable as some people think I am, I just respond in an unreasonable fashion to unreasonable points of view.

 

[mr.blackmage]

Morgana, you could have weakened or magic arrowed your dragon, and then proceeded to slaughter those two that jumped you. You let your dragon get nullified completely, and then say it's balanced... while any real pvper wouldn't have let that happen. As well, you and your friend BOTH died in the length of time it takes for a para to wear off a dragon? I'm assuming the dragon was evil omened, but still. If the two weren't tamers (or archers, which is another kettle of worms), then why didn't you counter cast? It doesn't sound like they were "prepared" or ready for a fight against a tamer, it just sounds more like they were jumping a bluebie, no offense.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Morgana, you could have weakened or magic arrowed your dragon, and then proceeded to slaughter those two that jumped you. You let your dragon get nullified completely, and then say it's balanced... while any real pvper wouldn't have let that happen. As well, you and your friend BOTH died in the length of time it takes for a para to wear off a dragon? I'm assuming the dragon was evil omened, but still. If the two weren't tamers (or archers, which is another kettle of worms), then why didn't you counter cast? It doesn't sound like they were "prepared" or ready for a fight against a tamer, it just sounds more like they were jumping a bluebie, no offense.

Well, that all sounds nice and good, but given the fact that it went down more like ...

-Two reds on screen
-.2 seconds later, dragon in para field, other red attacking me with melee weapon
-.2 more seconds, other red attacking me with melee weapon
-.3 more seconds...black and white
-a few more seconds later, friend runs up to me as a ghost.

I freely admitted on this forum and elsewhere that when it happened I was not prepared. I didn't even have protection cast. I never claimed to be some "l33t" PvPer...I wasn't the one listing my PvP "Credentials" (as if any of it matters). Am I rusty at PvP? Yep. Do I care? Nope. Doesn't make the argument any different. Nerfing taming across the board is not the answer.

 

[WarUltima]

-Two reds on screen
-.2 seconds later, dragon in para field, other red attacking me with melee weapon
-.2 more seconds, other red attacking me with melee weapon
-.3 more seconds...black and white
-a few more seconds later, friend runs up to me as a ghost.

You died in 0.2+0.3 second... so you died in 0.5 second eh... I KNEW IT.
You are trying to pvp naked with 0/0/0/0/0 resist and got killed in one shot... WoW is that the reason why you think tamers are balanced?

One thing I am sure, at my skill level each and any of my tamers are overpowered but apperently you think tamers are ok because YOU cant play one correctly.

Oh yea I wear like an actual PvP suit with like 55dci on my Tamer Mage too, I dont try to kill "TWO" PKs on foot while being naked like you.

You said all archers can easily do 60+ damage to 70 resist easy yet no prove, and try to ignore my challenges. You said tamers get killed in 0.5 second from full HP thus ur balanced... NO, PvPing with 0/0/0/0/0 resist and die in 1 hit doesnt mean others are overpowered.

If you dont see the overpowerness tamers have right now you really have zero idea on how to game works no matter how much you want to make yourself like a 21 year UO super vet that knows everything. You really have no idea on how the game works. You cant even provide any actual proof on the LIES and BSs you are trying to feed people.

Do I still need to mention you think you are underpowered because you use a PvM tamer in PvP and expect to flat out own other obviously better skilled players than you?

Do I need to mention (according to your post if you werent COMPLETELY full off **** and you really died in 0.5 second to a PK) you PvP naked? You pvping naked and die in 1 hit doesnt mean people are overpowered or you underpowered.

Do I need to mention (according to your owned admission) that you arent really good at a mage tamer?

It's your fault GD got trapped in para field (it only para a GD with 120 resist for like 2 second) and you can spend 0.5 second casting arrow or weaken on it. You always try to do jack helping your pets and when you fail badly (got owned in PvP as one of the most overpowered class) you say tamers arent overpowered.

Again you are either completely blatenly biased or you knew very little about UO nor Balance... And sorry I played since closed beta when UO graphic still looked like some 1986 NES single player RPG. Since you think credibility of talking about UO is based on how long you've been in game... and there's no way you could have beaten me on that aspect neither.

Please provide some proof like archer consistantly hitting your all 70 resist char for 68 dmg a shot.. you know to show that you are at least somewhat legit and not completely full of ****.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Again you are either completely blatenly biased or you knew very little about UO nor Balance... And sorry I played since closed beta when UO graphic still looked like some 1986 NES single player RPG. Since you think credibility of talking about UO is based on how long you've been in game... and there's no way you could have beaten me on that aspect neither.

Actually, in today's PvP, I think being the game longer puts you somewhat at a disadvantage.

Anyway...it was fun discussing with you all...but given that some people can't seem to just discuss things and have a thick skin, and have to go reporting people's posts and crying to nanny and all that, I guess I am done with this thread for good this time.

Have fun with it.

 

[WarUltima]

Actually, in today's PvP, I think being the game longer puts you somewhat at a disadvantage.

Anyway...it was fun discussing with you all...but given that some people can't seem to just discuss things and have a thick skin, and have to go reporting people's posts and crying to nanny and all that, I guess I am done with this thread for good this time.

Have fun with it.

Yea run away while you can... keep your tail in between legs.

Does that mean you arent going to provide any actually proof? man

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Morgana through out the entirety of this thread you pretty much said anyone crying nerf dragons didn't know how to pvp. You never backed up your argument with anything besdies that you don't know how to pvp.

If you take the advice of anyone that told you what to do when your pet got para'd the storey would have a different ending. Also even while paralized greater dragons/Dread mares can still throw their fire breath. There's a lot of things that need to be fixed with dragons and mares to help balance pvp.

Not everything should be capped at 35. For example Flame strike you have to stand still for a while while casting and not get disrupted. Why should a dragon that can't be disrupted do astronomical damage compared to a player. 80 damage while cursed is beyond unfair.

You were also wrong about pet casting. You never brought to light how if you run through the evil mage room in fire, you can be hit with lightning a good 4 seconds after you left that room. Pets casting is broken and could be fixed if the devs want. On free shards you can see what spells a pet is casting, and they don't hit you with 4 spells at once. You see flamestrike above their head and know if you stay on screen you'll get hit by it. It's not a random exp fs eb firebreath with you having no idea it's coming.


I think many people brought up valid points, none of which you adressed. Anything that was over powered ended up getting nerfed. Dragons are on that list of things that need to be fixed, but for the first 100 some posts you simple said everyone was a novice when it came to dragons and we need to whine less. Would you please take War's challenge and get a screen shot of anything close to that damage. Thanks in advance.