I have to ask. Is there no DEV member that is a trammel type player left?

[UOKaiser]

From the DEV's that play or understand the game or even other games out there. Is there any one that enjoys pvm,collecting,rares,vendering,crafting,etc... alot more then PVP or is eclusive to those types of activities? If not Did those DEV leave?

Also are there any DEV that grew up with the Ultima series or Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest-Dragon warrior series?

 

[WarUltima]

From the DEV's that play or understand the game or even other games out there. Is there any one that enjoys pvm,collecting,rares,vendering,crafting,etc... alot more then PVP or is eclusive to those types of activities? If not Did those DEV leave?

Also are there any DEV that grew up with the Ultima series or Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest-Dragon warrior series?

Fel vs
Tram + Ilshenar + Malas + Tokuno Island + Ter Mur

Yes, they really need some DEV that can put more into PvP. Logrus is pretty cool tho.

edit: wait maybe I got this wrong but you are not pleased by the upcoming bard changes because Bards can now have some use in PvP... as one of the most powerful PvM templates for years now get some uses in PvP (they arent PvP exclusive changes neither!) and you are complaining they should spend more time and give more tram only content?

 

[Tazar]

From listening to the Fel-players, we are supposed to believe that all Dev's are trammies...

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Having read the spoiler cliloc thread from the last patch, I'm going to make a guess and say that quite a bit of Trammel-based content is on the way.

 

[UOKaiser]

Fel vs
Tram + Ilshenar + Malas + Tokuno Island + Ter Mur

Yes, they really need some DEV that can put more into PvP. Logrus is pretty cool tho.

edit: wait maybe I got this wrong but you are not pleased by the upcoming bard changes because Bards can now have some use in PvP... as one of the most powerful PvM templates for years now get some uses in PvP (they arent PvP exclusive changes neither!) and you are complaining they should spend more time and give more tram only content?

Not those DEV. The new ones. They seem to not mind sacraficing trammel type content in favor of PVP type contant. For example if something makes it easier for PVP to compete they will sacrifce anything trammel for it. Things like that. The Trammel type content they add usually is easy enough for those in the fel side that don't like tram content to spend not much time doing.

So the new DEV seem more dedicated to PVP than any of the previous ones even willing to make things extremly easy in the trammel side of the world so that the fel players can do with out any dedication to it. Though Im hoping there is still one old school RPG player among them left or with a voice.

 

[hen]

Not those DEV. The new ones. They seem to not mind sacraficing trammel type content in favor of PVP type contant. For example if something makes it easier for PVP to compete they will sacrifce anything trammel for it. Things like that. The Trammel type content they add usually is easy enough for those in the fel side that don't like tram content to spend not much time doing.

So the new DEV seem more dedicated to PVP than any of the previous ones even willing to make things extremly easy in the trammel side of the world so that the fel players can do with out any dedication to it. Though Im hoping there is still one old school RPG player among them left or with a voice.

There are no crafters or rpg'rs in Fel?

 

[Nexus]

So the new DEV seem more dedicated to PVP than any of the previous ones even willing to make things extremly easy in the trammel side of the world so that the fel players can do with out any dedication to it. Though Im hoping there is still one old school RPG player among them left or with a voice.

It's about time though, and no I'm not a PvPer... there hasn't been anything really "New" added to PvP since Factions and Powerscrolls were introduced. At least nothing new that could be considered "Major" has been added for Reds, while PvM has had in the same time frame hmm 5 Facets, 4 full dungeons, tons of new monsters that don't appear in Felucca (Basically all of the Malas, Tokuno, Ter Mur, and Ilshenar unique mobs) Artifact drops that were not available in Felucca (ToT for example), and 3 champ spawns Felucca doesn't have Serado the Awakened, Ilhenir the Stained, and Twaulo of the Glade, They can't go to Travesty, they can't do the Labyrinth spawn, the can't enter the Abyss they can't recall in or out of dungeons. Heck the closest they have come to getting a new facet was the Abyssal Infernal, and Primeval Lich and they both sit in Felucca..just new areas which have direct access from the Abyss as well as Felucca meaning you don't have to trek out across PvP land to get to them. I know being Red is supposed to have some punishment but exclusion from all future content excepting items that can be bought or traded from players is a bit harsh, especially considering outside Felucca they are harmless because we are all "protected by the virtues"...

Sure I don't like giving up PvM things myself, but you have to look at it this way, PvP is much harder to balance than PvM. With PvM you can adjust monsters to help balance and compensate, you cannot do that with PvP as easily, there are way too many factors, Monsters can't get creative and randomly swap out their skill sets and alter their templates. By focusing on properly balancing and enhancing PvP they make life easier for themselves when it comes time to go back and adjust PvM....

 

[Symma]

Not those DEV. The new ones. They seem to not mind sacraficing trammel type content in favor of PVP type contant. For example if something makes it easier for PVP to compete they will sacrifce anything trammel for it. Things like that. The Trammel type content they add usually is easy enough for those in the fel side that don't like tram content to spend not much time doing.

So the new DEV seem more dedicated to PVP than any of the previous ones even willing to make things extremly easy in the trammel side of the world so that the fel players can do with out any dedication to it. Though Im hoping there is still one old school RPG player among them left or with a voice.

Not sure what you're getting at. PvP has always been part of this game, so why the big problem if the Dev's are finally giving it some love?

Trammies have plenty of stuff to look forward. Like the rebuilding of Magicnia. And different classes have been getting overhauls.

 

[Uvtha]

Uh...what? I find it funny that if ANY pvp content is added or discussed then the devs are pvp crazy, not just trying to balance or add to system that haven't been touched in years in favor of " trammel type" content.

That's ignoring the scads of non pvp content they just added with SA, then the new content that was added to SA like... a month ago as well as buffing a purely pvm template, and adding new items to craft.

Pvp has and will always take back seat to pvm.

The ole "If its not ALL about what I like, then something is wrong" mentality...

 

[Uvtha]

Im hoping there is still one old school RPG player among them left or with a voice.

FYI the "Oldschool RPG players" from UO pvped all the time. Look no further than the Orc clans that were around before tram, and they were not alone, there were TONS of strict RPG groups that pvped daily.

They didn't need a safety net to roleplay.

Also, pvming, and item collecting isn't "role playing".

 

[Evlar]

I saw the OP, saw the content and thought, "This is a joke thread right?"

The game couldn't BE any more "Trammel" orientated than it is now, could it?

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Not those DEV. The new ones. They seem to not mind sacraficing trammel type content in favor of PVP type contant. For example if something makes it easier for PVP to compete they will sacrifce anything trammel for it. Things like that. The Trammel type content they add usually is easy enough for those in the fel side that don't like tram content to spend not much time doing.

So the new DEV seem more dedicated to PVP than any of the previous ones even willing to make things extremly easy in the trammel side of the world so that the fel players can do with out any dedication to it. Though Im hoping there is still one old school RPG player among them left or with a voice.

What exactly has been added for PvP recently besides the bard additions (which also serve a purpose in PvM)...and one part of one event??

So one thing happens that people have to go to Fel in order to complete (totally elective btw) and now the Devs are all Fel players and not paying any attention to Trammel???!

rolleyes:

 

[Viper09]

From the DEV's that play or understand the game or even other games out there. Is there any one that enjoys pvm,collecting,rares,vendering,crafting,etc... alot more then PVP or is eclusive to those types of activities? If not Did those DEV leave?

Also are there any DEV that grew up with the Ultima series or Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest-Dragon warrior series?

To answer, yes, there are a lot of devs that are trammel type. Just because there is a little change that will affect pvp doesn't mean all devs are all fel players.

But if you want to suggest that all devs are doing are adding in PvP-only content, please share with us what the devs are doing that is so strictly PvP, taking into account the upcoming changes and previous changes from publish 65.

 

[Nexus]

I found a clip from a Dev meeting of them discussing PvM and PvP...

Spoiler

 

[Viper09]

I found a clip from a Dev meeting of them discussing PvM and PvP...

Spoiler

Which one is PvP?

 

[Nexus]

Which one is PvP?

Guess...

Think back who always gets screwed in the end...

 

[Viper09]

Guess...

Think back who always gets screwed in the end...

lol!

 

[UOKaiser]

It's a complicated issue. You see when the previous Dev added things to trammel yea it did mees things with felluccia. Then when the previous dev team balanced players in fel it usually screwed over players in tram. Siege is excluded from this conversation as pretty much anything added past Siege conception screws it over. These new Dev seem more willing to add fel content though as this usually screws tram content they somehow have managed to reverse the situation.
What I mean when they add trammel content it benefits fellucia content more than trammel it self instead of the usual decade old benefits tram screw fel and benefits fel screw tram theory. Now it's screw tram benefits fel and benefit fel and screw tram. Tram is pretty much being screwed both ways when they add content to tram and when they balance fel. So this is why i beleive they lean alot more to the PVP side of things and whoever was tram dedicated quit during last dev team turn. Also the casual 1 hour a week player is loving this as they can have anything a daily player can get shouldn't really be that way that's communism isn't it? Is not what we all beleive in those who play hard get the most and the lazy get the least?

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

 

[UOKaiser]

Lol I figured that would confused quite alot of people. im trying to think of a simpler way to say it.

 

[Evlar]

that's communism isn't it?

That's McCarthyism... isn't it?

 

[Always a Ghost]

So what your trying to say is that with the new patch there are no free hand outs, there is no uber robe that prevents death from any monster. They added a few things to bards so they can be useful during spawns, I'm sure you have no idea what those are LOL. And your crying about this..........did I get the jist of your post right???

 

[UOKaiser]

Ok. Lets try this. lets think for a second. Lets imagine ourselfs as newbies but with alot of time in our hands. Lets say we don't like to PVP at all for watever reason. We don't like Unreal tournament type games we just like games like Final fantasy. We start playing today but we are smart players so we check uoguide and stratics for everything. We finished every RPG we ever played.
We know if we can buy something for cheap we can sell it for more and make gold like that. We need starting money but run into a friendly player that gave us a mil gold to start with so we place a house and start our adventure.

Now how long will it be if we played everyday at least a few hours and alot more on the weekend from that point that we started with us being smart,dedicated and knowledge of all things RPG will take us to kill every monster in the game once all 70's suit and max stat for our character in other words finish the game.

 

[UOKaiser]

So what your trying to say is that with the new patch there are no free hand outs, there is no uber robe that prevents death from any monster. They added a few things to bards so they can be useful during spawns, I'm sure you have no idea what those are LOL. And your crying about this..........did I get the jist of your post right???

I said nothing about the patch am saying about the whole direction since the old DEV departed. Im not even thinking about the bard thing as it's useless anyway so it doesn't matter.

 

[Evlar]

Ok. Lets try this. lets think for a second. Lets imagine ourselfs as newbies but with alot of time in our hands. Lets say we don't like to PVP at all for watever reason. We don't like Unreal tournament type games we just like games like Final fantasy. We start playing today but we are smart players so we check uoguide and stratics for everything. We finished every RPG we ever played.
We know if we can buy something for cheap we can sell it for more and make gold like that. We need starting money but run into a friendly player that gave us a mil gold to start with so we place a house and start our adventure.

Now how long will it be if we played everyday at least a few hours and alot more on the weekend from that point that we started with us being smart,dedicated and knowledge of all things RPG will take us to kill every monster in the game once all 70's suit and max stat for our character in other words finish the game.

So... are you saying that there's no real challenge to the game any more, from a Trammel perspective? That they need another expansion? More items to chase perhaps?

A little rinse and repeat?

Also, by neglecting to produce the above, more often... they're also neglecting Trammel players by doing some work on factions or PvP elements of the game, sorely neglected for a long time?

If I'm (or anyone else is) not grasping what you're trying to say, then best bet might be to try with pictures

 

[UOKaiser]

So... are you saying that there's no real challenge to the game any more, from a Trammel perspective? That they need another expansion? More items to chase perhaps?

A little rinse and repeat?

Also, by neglecting to produce the above, more often... they're also neglecting Trammel players by doing some work on factions or PvP elements of the game, sorely neglected for a long time?

If I'm (or anyone else is) not grasping what you're trying to say, then best bet might be to try with pictures

No the problem is they have forced trammel players to need expansions to just be interested. More items that are easy to get are just a day or 2 of time for something to do. If they add items they need to put items that would take people months or years to get that should keep people occupied once they finished the game. I thought the goal of a company was to keep people paying subscription fees for years to come always having a challenge that takes time to reach.
Factions and pvp elements are just fine they can continue to work on it I don't mind improvements to pvp and felluccia and they can dedicate the whole year to it. But the problem is if they want everyone to be equal in pvp they had to sacrifice the longetivity of pvm and crafting in trammel. When they sacrifice things from one side to appease the other is never a good thing. Lately they have sacrificed alot in the trammel area from crafting being as easy as pie to make a perfect suit to monster loot being only worth doing for a couple of drops of the new SA bosses and the rest left to die of all to appease the equal power in the pvp area.

So they seem alot more PVP base with any additions they add to the Trammel side.

 

[Viper09]

Kaiser, I'd be willing to bet the entire PvP community will disagree with you.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

He is essentially saying that Imbuing has made PvM pointless.


Imbuing makes the game more like it was before AoS. Yes, there are still AoS properties, but obtaining powerful items doesn't require hours and hours and hours of grinding. Instead, crafters (imbuers) can just make the items players want, so players can go off and do whatever it is they want to do...and that includes PvP (which is why he is saying that things are PvPer-oriented). This model is called a sandbox game. Instead of chasing after the next item, the player is free to just pursue whatever he or she wants to do...it's up to them.

This is in contrast to the AoS model, which is called a theme park model. What this means is that more and more content is added to the game over time, essentially forcing players to migrate from old areas to new areas in pursuit of the latest content. The latest content being more powerful, and by extension...valuable, than the previous content. The players essentially have no choice in where they go, or what they do, because in order to explore the new areas, new items are needed...which can only be gained in the new areas. This forces players to purchase each expansion that is launched, and leaves the old areas of the game empty.

It depends on which model you prefer. In my opinion, the sandbox is preferable, but because there is no non-con PvP...many players will in fact become bored with this model because they are able to obtain what they need with very little or no challenge. The alternative to this would be open the game up to non-con PvP to provide challenge...but that would also cause the same people that will become bored with the sandbox to quit the game. The sandbox is not exciting enough, but the rollercoaster is too intense.

Is that about right UOKaiser?

 

[UOKaiser]

He is essentially saying that Imbuing has made PvM pointless.


Imbuing makes the game more like it was before AoS. Yes, there are still AoS properties, but obtaining powerful items doesn't require hours and hours and hours of grinding. Instead, crafters (imbuers) can just make the items players want, so players can go off and do whatever it is they want to do...and that includes PvP (which is why he is saying that things are PvPer-oriented). This model is called a sandbox game. Instead of chasing after the next item, the player is free to just pursue whatever he or she wants to do...it's up to them.

This is in contrast to the AoS model, which is called a theme park model. What this means is that more and more content is added to the game over time, essentially forcing players to migrate from old areas to new areas in pursuit of the latest content. The latest content being more powerful, and by extension...valuable, than the previous content. The players essentially have no choice in where they go, or what they do, because in order to explore the new areas, new items are needed...which can only be gained in the new areas. This forces players to purchase each expansion that is launched, and leaves the old areas of the game empty.

It depends on which model you prefer. In my opinion, the sandbox is preferable, but because there is no non-con PvP...many players will in fact become bored with this model because they are able to obtain what they need with very little or no challenge. The alternative to this would be open the game up to non-con PvP to provide challenge...but that would also cause the same people that will become bored with the sandbox to quit the game. The sandbox is not exciting enough, but the rollercoaster is too intense.

Is that about right UOKaiser?

You put my thoughts out there well. So yea that's alot of what i was saying.

Though i want to add it wasn't just imbuing that did this. just before imbuing they made the rewards from bods and heartwood easier to get. This would not be much of a problem if they didn't add imbuing afterwards. Then after imbuing we had more and more content each publish that continues to favor the easy to get system from the high end cloaks to robes to talisman that were easier and easier to get each event and publish, Capping eveyone pretty easy. I suspect there going to continue to add content that makes the game even easier and easier in the Trammalite area. They are also continiung to move into a class system area like WOW instead of the traditional UO make your own character and your own adventure area I also suspect that just before imbuing the previous DEV were already planning to retire or move on and they let the newer DEV take charge mostly before there departure was official.

 

[UOKaiser]

Kaiser, I'd be willing to bet the entire PvP community will disagree with you.

Perhaps. But is it not true at this moment the PVP community does not need trammelites anymore? Is it not also true that if you want a competing suit it will not take you the years it used to take to get it? Isn't the truth that almost every pvp player is running out with a suit that they could only really aquire if they had loads of gold or a trammalite to help them or years of patience? Faction arties enough said between not needing a pure trammalite anymore.At least theres penelty of death for that trade of.

 

[Evlar]

I think I get where you're coming from now UOKaiser. Morgana described things pretty well.

Some problems I see...

Sandbox Model = Requirement for more imagination, effort, or "self drive" on the part of the player.

Theme Park Model = Requires continual content development input, to stimulate continued interest of players.

On the part of the players, it's all down to personal preference. The problem with UO, is that it's trying to be a mixture of the two, perhaps leaning more towards the "Theme Park Model". In my opinion, the game is stuck somewhere in the middle and doesn't really know which way to go for the best.

This may be the single biggest dilemma facing the current development team. Do they sit in the middle, try to steer UO back towards the sandbox model, or more towards the theme park model?

Reading between the lines, I see it heading for the latter, maybe to a point where it becomes "free-to-play" with revenue coming from game store sale of content and items.

 

[Viper09]

Wow has the right idea though:

PvP shards

Non-PvP shards.

They don't mix it.
UO should have done this instead of PvP/Non-PvP shards. (with exception of Siege and Mugen)

 

[UOKaiser]

I think I get where you're coming from now UOKaiser. Morgana described things pretty well.

Some problems I see...

Sandbox Model = Requirement for more imagination, effort, or "self drive" on the part of the player.

Theme Park Model = Requires continual content development input, to stimulate continued interest of players.

On the part of the players, it's all down to personal preference. The problem with UO, is that it's trying to be a mixture of the two, perhaps leaning more towards the "Theme Park Model". In my opinion, the game is stuck somewhere in the middle and doesn't really know which way to go for the best.

This may be the single biggest dilemma facing the current development team. Do they sit in the middle, try to steer UO back towards the sandbox model, or more towards the theme park model?

Reading between the lines, I see it heading for the latter, maybe to a point where it becomes "free-to-play" with revenue coming from game store sale of content and items.

There you go EVLAR. Morgana was able to put my thoughts well and you expanded on it. These are the exact things am thinking about.

 

[Evlar]

Well, for what it's worth UOKaiser, it's a dilemma that's not just affecting the future direction UO head, but many other games.

Many of the great think-tanks in the gaming industry, seem of the opinion that "the future" will be social network orientated games, where people play with or against people they know in real life or virtually through online social networking. Part of the income stream they expect to hook into, is that people are always prepared to part cash for a "bonus", that puts them a peg higher in a game than their friends or the people they know. In a bizarre sort of way, it's like some sort of pyramid sales system for MMO's. Think about it...

But, that they say, is the future of MMO's, given the unpresidented success of the FTP "facebook" and social network tie-in games. That success caught a lot of people by surprise and now the gaming industry is scrambling for a piece of the pie.

When a subscription model based franchise brand as strong as Star Trek Online, looks likely to have the plug pulled before it reaches full release, technical issues aside, that's a pretty much a good indication of where things are going.

 

[Nexus]

Couple of thoughts....

Wow has the right idea though:

PvP shards

Non-PvP shards.

They don't mix it.
UO should have done this instead of PvP/Non-PvP shards. (with exception of Siege and Mugen)

WoW had an advantage, so did other MMO's that were released after UO. They had the lessons learned from UO to use as a guide line, they weren't innovating they were not breaking new ground, not many MMOs since really has that has held to the SciFi/Fantasy model with the exception of games like Atlantica that use turn based combat, and a very select few others. Graphics are not innovation in game play they are innovations in graphics technology, UO could be redone to look like WoW and if it was, would probably garner a huge following because of it, but it wouldn't be UO.

No the problem is they have forced trammel players to need expansions to just be interested. More items that are easy to get are just a day or 2 of time for something to do. If they add items they need to put items that would take people months or years to get that should keep people occupied once they finished the game. I thought the goal of a company was to keep people paying subscription fees for years to come always having a challenge that takes time to reach.
Factions and pvp elements are just fine they can continue to work on it I don't mind improvements to pvp and felluccia and they can dedicate the whole year to it. But the problem is if they want everyone to be equal in pvp they had to sacrifice the longetivity of pvm and crafting in trammel. When they sacrifice things from one side to appease the other is never a good thing. Lately they have sacrificed alot in the trammel area from crafting being as easy as pie to make a perfect suit to monster loot being only worth doing for a couple of drops of the new SA bosses and the rest left to die of all to appease the equal power in the pvp area.

So they seem alot more PVP base with any additions they add to the Trammel side.

Find me a MMO that doesn't follow the same pattern? Additional content has to be put in, MMOs don't have the benefit of "Replay Value" stand alone games do. You have to continually add something because instead of having a game where the estimated time from point A to point B for a player is measured in hours it had to be measured in Years. If they didn't think this way the MMO market simply couldn't exist, would you pay a subscription to an MMO only to play it for 2-3 days, weeks, or months?

Simply put additional content and expansions are the true life blood of any MMO, more so than graphics, sound, or platform. I know many people that still play MUDs not because they want to be all retro... but because they play really good MUDs where the content developed and added to them has given them a depth that other games simply cannot match. UO is the same way, it's not just the Player base that adds depth but also Content. You didn't see many folks running around RPing Savages until Savage Kin Paint was released, and we had an idea how they looked in the UO world, you wouldn't have seen people RPing as Orcs without the Orc Masks... You never would have had B0N3D00D and pLaTeDeWd running around or people like them years ago without the content available for them to build those altered persona on. Content has to be introduced , development has to continue, and PvM is where the majority of it will happen because monster loot and special drops allow easier distribution into the system. I can choose not to PvP, you simply cannot in UO choose never to engage in some level of PvM, get attacked by a Mongbat that's PvM, kill Baracoon after raiding a group that's PvM, trying to get a specific arty outta the Abyss that's PvM, gathering hides at the Jhelom farms.. That's PvM, buying off a vendor?, well someone did one of the above and you are contributing a justification for PvM to that person.

Content as I said is the life blood of every MMO, and PvM is the heart that pumps it.

 

[Evlar]

Couple of thoughts....

WoW had an advantage, so did other MMO's that were released after UO. They had the lessons learned from UO to use as a guide line, they weren't innovating they were not breaking new ground, not many MMOs since really has that has held to the SciFi/Fantasy model with the exception of games like Atlantica that use turn based combat, and a very select few others. Graphics are not innovation in game play they are innovations in graphics technology, UO could be redone to look like WoW and if it was, would probably garner a huge following because of it, but it wouldn't be UO.

Problem is now, UO missed that boat a while back and WoW is now what it is. You could bet your bottom dollar, if EA/Mythic launched a full 3D client or complete new 3D orientated UO game, every reviewer would call it a WoW clone.

Hindsight is such a wonderful thing...

 

[Nexus]

Problem is now, UO missed that boat a while back and WoW is now what it is. You could bet your bottom dollar, if EA/Mythic launched a full 3D client or complete new 3D orientated UO game, every reviewer would call it a WoW clone.

Hindsight is such a wonderful thing...

Possibly but how many after trying if it was done right would actually start to groove on it because there would be a game with some actual depth behind it with superb graphics, currently there aren't any.....

If you wanted to start splitting fine hairs WoW is a clone of EQ nothing more....

 

[Uvtha]

Well, for what it's worth UOKaiser, it's a dilemma that's not just affecting the future direction UO head, but many other games.
.

Too true. Guess who's fault it is too. The players. The common gamer CLEARLY doesn't want an engaging experience. They want to be handed a goal, then they want to set toward a clearly defined path to accomplish that goal. This is the "Final Fantasy/console RPG" game plan. Be handed your objective, follow established path, then ask for new objective.

No creativity, no complex interpersonal relationships, certainly no "role playing".

In UO this is how things have been going ever since UOR. Now with the inception of Imbuing (among other things) UO's main objective (perfect your suit) is gone since players never lose gear. So the people get confused.

I still think UO is far more open that 99% of all other mmo's out there, and I think if they just dropped insurance, and had never put in tram, (and put in some other, less ham handed addition instead to deal with the issues that were at hand) imbuing would be a great boon to the game. In fact if you look to siege, which is pretty close to that, imbuing was a fantastic addition that helped out and pleased all involved. But siege is a more open and interactive experience, and thats not what people want.

Thats OK, but I personally think if people would try and break out of that console rpg/wow style game and learned that death in a video game is not harmful to you as a person, even if at the hands of another player, that better games would be being made, and UO specifically would be a better game without all of these silly thematically artificial safety nets like tram and insurance.

But that's just me.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I think I get where you're coming from now UOKaiser. Morgana described things pretty well.

Some problems I see...

Sandbox Model = Requirement for more imagination, effort, or "self drive" on the part of the player.

Theme Park Model = Requires continual content development input, to stimulate continued interest of players.

On the part of the players, it's all down to personal preference. The problem with UO, is that it's trying to be a mixture of the two, perhaps leaning more towards the "Theme Park Model". In my opinion, the game is stuck somewhere in the middle and doesn't really know which way to go for the best.

This may be the single biggest dilemma facing the current development team. Do they sit in the middle, try to steer UO back towards the sandbox model, or more towards the theme park model?

I said this before in a previous thread, but I think the days of "boxed" expansions for UO have come to an end. I don't just mean retail boxes, I mean named, big deal, launch date, all at once, expansions.

The dev team has shrunk, and they have put things into the game that would potentially allow them to leak new content into the game via smaller, more frequent publishes and use of the code store. I don't think that we will see the monthly subscription fee disappear, or be lowered even...but I don't think we will see new lands in this game again. Why should we? There are so many areas in UO that are completely empty all the time that the devs could "revamp" each of the landmasses over time and get 5-6 years out of the game with just that, a few added monsters, and some deco/non-combat related items sold through the code store.

The big problem with the Theme Park model is that every expansion costs money to make, and as the playerbase gets more and more tired of the game...mostly due to its age...the revenue each expansion brings in shrinks. Its called the law of diminishing returns...eventually, EA won't get out of an expansion what they put into it. We may have already seen that with SA...no one is saying for sure.

Either way, I think imbuing is the first step in putting this game essentially on cruise control. That doesn't mean it won't get new content, or live events, it just means that it won't get the big release content that it always has.

Again, this is only my opinion...I have nothing to base this on besides my own intuition.

 

[chuckoatl]

You guy/gals all speak of the ease of the game now. That its PvP based? Explain this to me. Granted I rarely go into tram except to train a new char. But I will tell you what, PvM is about as mind numbing an experience as there can be. I have 2 chars I can PvM with, a sampire and a Mystic dexxy. I can literally walk away from the keyboard with my sampire. PvP has a level of game play that most of you would never understand. I wish they would run more events through fel so you guys and gals would be a little more excited when you get that last item/event rare.

I mean you run half of the temps I see people running in tram you would be eaten alive. You go into fel on a tamer without wrestling or a mage weapon your asking for it. You go to fel on a sampire your dead.

Oh and by the way, I know you people enjoy those +25 stat scrolls and 120 scrolls. Guess what...... without us Fel freaks, you wouldnt have any of them. No one from tram would ever finish a spawn on ATL (if you actually know where they are) without someone coming to ruin your party. Just let it go. They will get back to your precious PvM crap soon enough.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

PvM is about as mind numbing an experience as there can be

I think that was his point.

 

[Babble]

Sandbox = mostly skill based and your progression is not led by quests which lead you from level to level into new areas. Most sandboxes are less itembased and try to be story driven for content.

Themepark = mostly level based and you progress through levels with questing from one area to another. They tell a story based on their quests and the developer leads you through it. Most of those are itembased and easier to fill with new content as you just raise the level cap. In themeparks the quests tell an overall story.


If UO had more subscribers and all love AOS then UO could use a 'Cataclysm' - A total remake of the world and a new setting of he skill levelcap. Set the skillcap to 150 or even 200. Set the statcap to 200 each and remake all of the lands with 'adapted' monsters...

Still I have no idea why EA cannot tell an overall meta story for UO.
There are 2-3 quest systems, champion spawn systems, an Invasion System of Britain and still don't manage to tell an overall story in a fantasy based game, assisted by EM's.

In WOW there is enough content to play 1000 of hours, In UO you can do what you want, but that still is no excuse not to give players an overall story to interact with or follow it. EM's are nice but not active enough for that. And for a storyline you do not have to introduce new items all the time.

Added: I still mourn the day EA decided that programmed content was preferable to live content . I understand their reasoning but no way UO can compare with the other games then.

 

[Lefty]

From the DEV's that play or understand the game or even other games out there. Is there any one that enjoys pvm,collecting,rares,vendering,crafting,etc... alot more then PVP or is eclusive to those types of activities? If not Did those DEV leave?

Also are there any DEV that grew up with the Ultima series or Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest-Dragon warrior series?

Publish 67 is slated for some RPG Goodies like opening up stealing in Trammel facets *grins*

 

[G.v.P]

From the DEV's that play or understand the game or even other games out there. Is there any one that enjoys pvm,collecting,rares,vendering,crafting,etc... alot more then PVP or is eclusive to those types of activities? If not Did those DEV leave?

Also are there any DEV that grew up with the Ultima series or Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest-Dragon warrior series?

??

They made Trammel, didn't they? What more do you want? rofl

 

[Connor_Graham]

You guy/gals all speak of the ease of the game now. That its PvP based? Explain this to me. Granted I rarely go into tram except to train a new char. But I will tell you what, PvM is about as mind numbing an experience as there can be. I have 2 chars I can PvM with, a sampire and a Mystic dexxy. I can literally walk away from the keyboard with my sampire. PvP has a level of game play that most of you would never understand. I wish they would run more events through fel so you guys and gals would be a little more excited when you get that last item/event rare.

Obviously you are a PvP'r, yet you're speaking as if you know what makes the PvM'r do what they do when you actually have no clue. PvM'rs don't want to PvP, feel no need at all for any kind of "rush" from it, and prefer to kill monsters for RELAXATION, not to get their heart pumping. I don't get why this is so hard for some people to understand. Here, maybe this will make it easier for you-

PvMrs HAVE NO NEED NOR WANT TO GO TO FEL, HAVE THEIR HEART RATE INCREASED, OR GET AN ADRELIN RUSH FROM A GAME THEY PLAY TO RELAX AND UNWIND WITH.

I mean you run half of the temps I see people running in tram you would be eaten alive. You go into fel on a tamer without wrestling or a mage weapon your asking for it. You go to fel on a sampire your dead.

Those temps work just fine for those that stay in Tram and have no desire to go to Fel for anything. Judge not lest ye be judged yourself, and all that rot....

Oh and by the way, I know you people enjoy those +25 stat scrolls and 120 scrolls. Guess what...... without us Fel freaks, you wouldnt have any of them. No one from tram would ever finish a spawn on ATL (if you actually know where they are) without someone coming to ruin your party. Just let it go. They will get back to your precious PvM crap soon enough.

There's more to UO than just Atlantic, and FYI, spawns get completed by "Trammies" daily. They don't have to be on Atlantic to do it.

 

[calibek]

He is essentially saying that Imbuing has made PvM pointless.


Imbuing makes the game more like it was before AoS. Yes, there are still AoS properties, but obtaining powerful items doesn't require hours and hours and hours of grinding. Instead, crafters (imbuers) can just make the items players want, so players can go off and do whatever it is they want to do...and that includes PvP (which is why he is saying that things are PvPer-oriented). This model is called a sandbox game. Instead of chasing after the next item, the player is free to just pursue whatever he or she wants to do...it's up to them.

This is in contrast to the AoS model, which is called a theme park model. What this means is that more and more content is added to the game over time, essentially forcing players to migrate from old areas to new areas in pursuit of the latest content. The latest content being more powerful, and by extension...valuable, than the previous content. The players essentially have no choice in where they go, or what they do, because in order to explore the new areas, new items are needed...which can only be gained in the new areas. This forces players to purchase each expansion that is launched, and leaves the old areas of the game empty.

It depends on which model you prefer. In my opinion, the sandbox is preferable, but because there is no non-con PvP...many players will in fact become bored with this model because they are able to obtain what they need with very little or no challenge. The alternative to this would be open the game up to non-con PvP to provide challenge...but that would also cause the same people that will become bored with the sandbox to quit the game. The sandbox is not exciting enough, but the rollercoaster is too intense.

Is that about right UOKaiser?

You put my thoughts out there well. So yea that's alot of what i was saying.

Though i want to add it wasn't just imbuing that did this. just before imbuing they made the rewards from bods and heartwood easier to get. This would not be much of a problem if they didn't add imbuing afterwards. Then after imbuing we had more and more content each publish that continues to favor the easy to get system from the high end cloaks to robes to talisman that were easier and easier to get each event and publish, Capping eveyone pretty easy. I suspect there going to continue to add content that makes the game even easier and easier in the Trammalite area. They are also continiung to move into a class system area like WOW instead of the traditional UO make your own character and your own adventure area I also suspect that just before imbuing the previous DEV were already planning to retire or move on and they let the newer DEV take charge mostly before there departure was official.

OK I'm going to put this again here just like I did in the other thread. I DO NOT PvP, I PvM almost exclusively. With that being said I DO NOT share your sentiments. I think imbuing, and to an extent everything else you mentioned is a GOOD thing to UO. You talk about how things are so much easier to attain, it's so easy to attain a suit now instead of the years it takes to put one together. The main problem I have with what you said was the time frame you set. I will say it in this thread, I do not have the time, energy, patience, or luck to work for YEARS to attain the perfect, or near perfect, suit or to hope that a piece I want to make my suit perfect drops all with the correct mods. Imbuing fixed the problems well and to be honest with you if things had been left the way they were without imbuing this game would have died a MUCH quicker death.

And yes I do feel that the legacy areas need to be retooled or fixed or something so that the loot drops across all areas or something so that there is more population. However, if all you care about is looting monsters hoping for that one piece of jewelry then in all honesty you are playing the wrong game, WoW does that are better. Maybe you should look into that game.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I think imbuing, and to an extent everything else
you mentioned is a GOOD thing to UO.

...

Imbuing fixed the problems well and to be honest with you if things had been left the way they were without imbuing this game would have died a MUCH quicker death.

I agree with you here...that imbuing was good for UO, because I prefer the more open "sandbox" approach.

The question of whether it is actually "good" for UO, in terms of subscribers, remains to be answered...because if what UOKaiser is saying is true (and we cannot yet say for sure whether it is or isn't)...then players will get bored and quit because they prefer the "theme park" approach.

That's my primary concern based on what I have seen from the current playerbase. An awful lot of players get very wrapped up in chasing the next item...and if that becomes unnecessary...what does that leave them to do?

Now, personally, I prefer that approach...because *I* can decide what I want to do, rather than whatever the devs throw out deciding what I do...so like I said above, I agree with in theory...let's just hope a lot of other players do as well, otherwise we might be seeing a lot of players quit.

 

[Always a Ghost]

You guy/gals all speak of the ease of the game now. That its PvP based? Explain this to me. Granted I rarely go into tram except to train a new char. But I will tell you what, PvM is about as mind numbing an experience as there can be. I have 2 chars I can PvM with, a sampire and a Mystic dexxy. I can literally walk away from the keyboard with my sampire. PvP has a level of game play that most of you would never understand. I wish they would run more events through fel so you guys and gals would be a little more excited when you get that last item/event rare.

Obviously you are a PvP'r, yet you're speaking as if you know what makes the PvM'r do what they do when you actually have no clue. PvM'rs don't want to PvP, feel no need at all for any kind of "rush" from it, and prefer to kill monsters for RELAXATION, not to get their heart pumping. I don't get why this is so hard for some people to understand. Here, maybe this will make it easier for you-

PvMrs HAVE NO NEED NOR WANT TO GO TO FEL, HAVE THEIR HEART RATE INCREASED, OR GET AN ADRELIN RUSH FROM A GAME THEY PLAY TO RELAX AND UNWIND WITH.

I mean you run half of the temps I see people running in tram you would be eaten alive. You go into fel on a tamer without wrestling or a mage weapon your asking for it. You go to fel on a sampire your dead.

Those temps work just fine for those that stay in Tram and have no desire to go to Fel for anything. Judge not lest ye be judged yourself, and all that rot....

Oh and by the way, I know you people enjoy those +25 stat scrolls and 120 scrolls. Guess what...... without us Fel freaks, you wouldnt have any of them. No one from tram would ever finish a spawn on ATL (if you actually know where they are) without someone coming to ruin your party. Just let it go. They will get back to your precious PvM crap soon enough.

There's more to UO than just Atlantic, and FYI, spawns get completed by "Trammies" daily. They don't have to be on Atlantic to do it.

First off if you don't want to PvP thats fine then stop crting about everything in this game that is not fed to you through a nipple, heaven forbid if you have to earn something LOL. My god what is the hardest monster left in UO now for you pvm'rs? Greater dragons LOL wow talk about mind numbing lol but your right they are relaxing..... puts you to sleep faster than classic music.

Secondly, yes there are more shards than atl, in fact I play, gl, atl and pac and never one do trammies complete a spawn without getting raided by someone. Unless you mean ish spawns and your welcome to them lol. So please stop trying to play the hero here.

All us Pvp'rs know there is more to this game than just us and our style of play. We are not asking you to come play with us or our style, but for the love of god stop all the crying already. The stratics boards now days are a joke, and most pvp'rs that I know avoid them all together because of the biased attitueds shown here, well all the trammies crying over every thing possible.

Every PvP'r out there has lost whole suits or weapons worth millions, and never do we come on here and cry about this, or thw fact we need a revert, or that the games owes us anything. Now can a trammie say the same thing?? Youse lose anthing and it's instantly put on the boards so every other trammie out there can cry with you, and you can all demand free things cause you feel your owed. The game is what it is, play or leave it. More expansions will come things will change some for the better and some well you know.

 

[calibek]

I agree with you here...that imbuing was good for UO, because I prefer the more open "sandbox" approach.

The question of whether it is actually "good" for UO, in terms of subscribers, remains to be answered...because if what UOKaiser is saying is true (and we cannot yet say for sure whether it is or isn't)...then players will get bored and quit because they prefer the "theme park" approach.

That's my primary concern based on what I have seen from the current playerbase. An awful lot of players get very wrapped up in chasing the next item...and if that becomes unnecessary...what does that leave them to do?

Now, personally, I prefer that approach...because *I* can decide what I want to do, rather than whatever the devs throw out deciding what I do...so like I said above, I agree with in theory...let's just hope a lot of other players do as well, otherwise we might be seeing a lot of players quit.

Well regardless of how you look at it UO is losing people, that's just the nature of games as they age. UO is 12 years old and it also for a number of years has been a niche game. With that said though UO was not doing good at all before SA simply because things were too random. If they were going to do an item game like they start doing with AoS then they needed to have items spawn with static mods, none of this 16% LRC, 15% HCI, 2% DCI, bracelet crap.

Using me as an example, I refused to come back to a game where either I would have to farm for hours on end to, for instance, have a .00000000001% chance to have a bracelet, ring, armor, etc spawn with absolutely perfect mods or get lucky enough to get it or spend 100 mil + gold, of which i don't have btw, to put together a good suit to even attempt to do some things. Imbuing gives people the opportunity to do things they can do without the need to make hundreds of millions of gold or farm days, months, years for items to do it. Yes I can see UOkaiser's point and to an extent agree with some things, but I will NEVER agree with it when it comes down to giving players freedom which is what UO has always been about.

Like I said if you are the type to constantly hunt for items then try out WoW because they do the item game MUCH better with many more people (albeit childish and rude) and better graphics to boot. UO is the game where players are given freedom and choice and imbuing allows people to actually enjoy the game and NOT have to constantly farm to have some chance of doing things.

 

[In Flames]

It's about time though, and no I'm not a PvPer... there hasn't been anything really "New" added to PvP since Factions and Powerscrolls were introduced. At least nothing new that could be considered "Major" has been added for Reds, while PvM has had in the same time frame hmm 5 Facets, 4 full dungeons, tons of new monsters that don't appear in Felucca (Basically all of the Malas, Tokuno, Ter Mur, and Ilshenar unique mobs) Artifact drops that were not available in Felucca (ToT for example), and 3 champ spawns Felucca doesn't have Serado the Awakened, Ilhenir the Stained, and Twaulo of the Glade, They can't go to Travesty, they can't do the Labyrinth spawn, the can't enter the Abyss they can't recall in or out of dungeons. Heck the closest they have come to getting a new facet was the Abyssal Infernal, and Primeval Lich and they both sit in Felucca..just new areas which have direct access from the Abyss as well as Felucca meaning you don't have to trek out across PvP land to get to them. I know being Red is supposed to have some punishment but exclusion from all future content excepting items that can be bought or traded from players is a bit harsh, especially considering outside Felucca they are harmless because we are all "protected by the virtues"...

Sure I don't like giving up PvM things myself, but you have to look at it this way, PvP is much harder to balance than PvM. With PvM you can adjust monsters to help balance and compensate, you cannot do that with PvP as easily, there are way too many factors, Monsters can't get creative and randomly swap out their skill sets and alter their templates. By focusing on properly balancing and enhancing PvP they make life easier for themselves when it comes time to go back and adjust PvM....

Wow, that sir, is the single most convincing argument for allowing reds into Trammel that I have ever heard.

I'm a red, and I approve this message.