Dragons Buffed on Test?

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Thanks for the clarification.
You've prevented at least one person crying like a lost child today!

[/ QUOTE ]No matter, now it's just me that's bereft.

Man, I even offered to let him play with my new lil dragon friend so he could check out all its majesty, too! He might have taken me up on my offer, where he could have tested his mettle against it or at least just let it chew on him a little in the relative safety of TC1...

But, sad as I'll be to see the big red draggie wiped, and as ridiculously soppy as it sounds...since I missed out on tameable ancient wyrms, today I lived a long held UO dream.

Bowing in honour and in farewell to my most worthy adversary turned companion.

 

[imported_Sarphus]

<blockquote><hr>

eh I dont think it would be a huge deal in pvp. Hiryus hit for 42 on 70 phys but nobody uses them because you can outrun one on foot pretty easily; same for dragons. Although the teleport might be funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

But a hiryu is potentially more powerful in pvp for a few reasons (and it's not overpowered)

Dismount
Can lower phys resist and hits for 100% phys dmg
Rideable

The only things the new dragon has over a hiryu is
Higher overall resists
Firebreath

I think the phys resist reduction hits that a hiryu has are generally more dangerous in pvp. Either way, I kinda laugh when I see people bring hiryu into a pvp fight. I'm sure to kill it for them

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

The only things the new dragon has over a hiryu is
Higher overall resists
Firebreath

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, they have magic spells and that teleport ability as well, but I see what you're saying. There are quite a few advantages to both, really.

 

[imported_kinney42]

I really couldn't give a poop about PVP. Its long dead and the huge majority of people who play UO do not PVP. UO has catered to PVPers for long enough!

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

I really couldn't give a poop about PVP. Its long dead and the huge majority of people who play UO do not PVP. UO has catered to PVPers for long enough!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but PvPers still comprise a large part of the player base. I don't understand how you can say PvP is "long dead."

And since when in the last few years has UO catered to PvPers? We get some balancing fixes every now and then but every expansion/event/land mass in recent times have been far from a PvP cookie.

 

[JoyousGard]

Whoa man, have a Snickers and relax a little.


The dragons are in the works. So, love it or hate it, the dragons are in the works!

 

[imported_kinney42]

Sorry, I'm a total Dbag sometimes! lol

 

[imported_kinney42]

- Sings to himself -
Happy peanuts soar over chocolate covered mountaintops and waterfalls of caramel. Prancing nougat in a meadow sings a song of satisfaction to the world.

ahhhh much better!

 

[Nixon[I-C]]

Buffing dragons alone solves nothing, excepts make Dragons overpowered pets.

 

[JoyousGard]

As far a I know, Douchebag has been given the go ahead ... the powers that be will let me know

 

[imported_kinney42]

HA! I dunno though, Dbag just sounds funnier!
For example, "That guys is a giant Dbag."
say it with me now......Dbag.

 

[JoyousGard]

<blockquote><hr>

- Sings to himself -
Happy peanuts soar over chocolate covered mountaintops and waterfalls of caramel. Prancing nougat in a meadow sings a song of satisfaction to the world.

ahhhh much better!

[/ QUOTE ]
nice

 

[imported_Sarphus]

That would be true if they buffed dragons in a way that wasn't balanced. The overall idea behind this dragon is to give you more power in 1 pet, but less power than you can have with more than one pet. This dragon is generally more powerful than a cu and also more powerful than a hiryu for non pvp fights, but I seriously doubt this dragon will be able to beat a beetle/bake combo for a number of reasons. A 5 slot pet should be roughly as powerful as a 5 slot combo, and I think this dragon is close to being there.

I don't know that the actual stats in the final version will be anything like the ones on TC, but even if they are, you have a 30 point swing on several of the resists, so tamers will have to choose what they're after because you're not going to see a dragon with anywhere near max resists. Also, each stat and skill has a really large variance as well, which means you need to balance the power against a middle-of-the road version of the creature.

As long as these things aren't insta-killing avg or better pvpers and the teleport ability isn't used vs player targets, I don't think there will be a problem with this pet.

 

[Guest]

I'm not un-sympathetic in regards to the appeal of a more powerful dragon pet. In fact I love the idea of buffing up Dragons to make them a more difficult enemy and a more fun pet.
I just feel there are certain other factors that have to be weighed in before something like that is done. If the current pet balance issues were taken care of before hand in such a way as to make them non-overpowered I'd be right there with you saying what a great idea it is. Dragons look far better than the current top end pets and it'd be far nicer to see them running around again instead.

Taming is such a difficult subject, it's always been powerful, though in today's game not nearly the best when it comes to PvM and certainly has plenty of room for interesting ideas, however if you throw it on a PvP template and, importantly, put it in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, it's the most powerful template addition there is.
This is why I think there's such a problem currently. There's many ways to address it, so we can band together in our hopes that it is, me so that I don't have to put up with being instantly killed by one, and you so you can enjoy owning one!

 

[Terraxia]

I want tamable shadow wyrms!

 

[imported_Sarphus]

I agree that you shouldn't be able to insta-kill people. That's why LJ was so lame back when you could double-strike someone and knock em over sometimes. Just like it was lame when people were running around nerve strike locking people and killing them with no possible recourse.

There should be a counter for everything in the game. Usually there isn't...

Why don't we start by talking about issues we see with tamers.

One obvious pvp issue is the use of ninja forms while controlling 5 slots of pets (mostly done with beetle/bake). I think the fix for that is to make ninja forms take up control slots.

Another obvious issue is the use of pet balls on stealth archers
I think a start would be to not allow pets to attack for 10 seconds after they've been summoned. People would be hard pressed to gimp-gank you with a pet ball if their pet couldn't fight right away.

so... with these 2 changes, we basically killed the more popular gimplates that abuse taming... The real problem, imo is stealth archer, though. Not taming lol

Another point I think needs to be made. Adding resistances to a pet doesn't overpower a pet in pvp unless it also does too much burst damage. As long as the burst damage of this 5 slot pet is reasonable, should be balanced. I really doubt a fully trained super dragon will outdamage a fully trained beetle/bake (at least not mine...)

 

[Guest]

My mini-road test of Super Dragon on Tamers Forum

 

[Guest]

If they make it to production shards I so hope they can spawn in black also.... be sooooo wicked if they do or did.....

*sighs*

 

[Connor_Graham]

"it should be king of the beasts in sosaria and not have less hitpoints than some purple tiny bird."

Obviously you have not met that purple bird's big brother, Big Bird, aka Pyre.

He makes the purple bird look like a pet parrot in comparison.

 

[imported_Anakena]

<blockquote><hr>

Because the current array of available pets is already too strong and still need follow up attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can be true, but giving love to some legacy pets should be possible. Dragons are slow, have skills limited to GM, and have no specials (except that firebreath). Actually a single bake bitsune is stronger than a dragon. There are also plenty of slayers available against them (runebooks or weapons, even artifacts).

The only valid argument is that it could fubar the rikktor champion spawn. The PvP argument is half valid as like you said lot of pets are already too strong. So having a strong dragon (stats halved upon taming and subject to slayers) requiring 5 slots should not be a problem in pvp compared to what we already have now.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

this change must die honestly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? Dragons should be one of, if not THE hardest creature in the game to kill.

This change is so cool, I am almost giddy about it.

IT ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

I really couldn't give a poop about PVP. Its long dead and the huge majority of people who play UO do not PVP. UO has catered to PVPers for long enough!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, catered to us with our very own PvP expansion... and publishes... perfectly balanced PvP and fun things for us to do and not just hope people who wanna fight work spawns... oh wait...
Turns out you don't know what you're talking about... SILLY ME!

 

[Clx-]

<blockquote><hr>

UO has catered to PVPers for long enough!

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh please.

Dragons/Wyrm's should be the most powerful pet. Not an idiotic looking Beetle or some wolf/dog/neon thing. Those pets are already way overpowered though. Just boosting others to make them more powerful isn't desirable

 

[Babble]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

I really couldn't give a poop about PVP. Its long dead and the huge majority of people who play UO do not PVP. UO has catered to PVPers for long enough!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, catered to us with our very own PvP expansion... and publishes... perfectly balanced PvP and fun things for us to do and not just hope people who wanna fight work spawns... oh wait...
Turns out you don't know what you're talking about... SILLY ME!

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should EA cater to pvpers when others do it 10 times better and pvpers are only a very small group.
I agree that ea would do better with interesting pvm features and maybe if that runs well work on the pvp features again.

 

[imported_Anakena]

<blockquote><hr>


Another obvious issue is the use of pet balls on stealth archers
I think a start would be to not allow pets to attack for 10 seconds after they've been summoned. People would be hard pressed to gimp-gank you with a pet ball if their pet couldn't fight right away.



[/ QUOTE ]

This would not work. Say you are a tamer and someone attacks you. In order to defend yourself you call your pet, but 10 seconds is a world of difference. If after 10 seconds you are still alive, you have good chances that your pets are already dead or half dead (with 700 HP, a dragon may die in 4 hits from a well equipped archer instead of 3 hits for a normal dragon).

A good way to avoid gimplates would be to raise the control requirements

 

[imported_Sarphus]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

UO has catered to PVPers for long enough!

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh please.

Dragons/Wyrm's should be the most powerful pet. Not an idiotic looking Beetle or some wolf/dog/neon thing. Those pets are already way overpowered though. Just boosting others to make them more powerful isn't desirable

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the rune beetles only look idiotic in KR. Bright and painful to look at...

I agree the dragon art is one of the best pieces of art ever created for 2d client, though. I like 2d dragon art better than 2d rune beetle art (but I like the rune beetle as well).

I like the KR dragon art even better, but I hate that they never stop flying. It's SOOOO annoying having them flopping all over the place (flying) when they're just standing right next to you.

 

[imported_Sarphus]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>


Another obvious issue is the use of pet balls on stealth archers
I think a start would be to not allow pets to attack for 10 seconds after they've been summoned. People would be hard pressed to gimp-gank you with a pet ball if their pet couldn't fight right away.



[/ QUOTE ]

This would not work. Say you are a tamer and someone attacks you. In order to defend yourself you call your pet, but 10 seconds is a world of difference. If after 10 seconds you are still alive, you have good chances that your pets are already dead or half dead (with 700 HP, a dragon may die in 4 hits from a well equipped archer instead of 3 hits for a normal dragon).

A good way to avoid gimplates would be to raise the control requirements

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the most obvious solution is to keep your pet with you...

I still think it's a reasonable penalty to have your pet uanble to attack for 10 seconds after being summoned. There have to be downsides for using every item that does something special without requiring skills or the item becomes a balance issue. I put pet summoning balls right up there with pop boxes and cure pots as being items that screw up pvp balance.

 

[Guest]

Personally, my solution to this part of the issue would be to make pet balls unusable for a certain period after issuing any kill command.
It leaves them viable for legitimate protection and only commits someone if they actively attack a person/monster.

 

[Al Thorin]

<blockquote><hr>

Taming is such a difficult subject, it's always been powerful, though in today's game not nearly the best when it comes to PvM and certainly has plenty of room for interesting ideas, however if you throw it on a PvP template and, importantly, put it in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, it's the most powerful template addition there is.

[/ QUOTE ]
While I'll agree that a tamer in capable hands can be one of the most devistating templates in PVP, I will argue the difficulty in discussing the subject.

Lets face one, small, seemly insignificant fact, good pvp tamers -are- few and far between. This statement ignores gate tactics, as I don't care what you are, you're blue, and you hide at GZ's, you're gonna get cheap shots off.

Out in the field, war driven PVP tamers. From everything I've seen, from the frequency of them, to the skills required, are as ballanced as they can be.
I think the act of getting killed by a pet simply causes many players to freak out far more than they have any right to.

Yes, tamers can get 'instant' kills. Randomly.

Compare that to -many- other, simpler to play templates, that have had instant, controllable kills in the past, or the ones that require no more luck than a couple hits in a row.
I've been killed by current archers, where it's only two shots. But I see -far- more archers than tamers, even now, we're suposed to have swarms of them according to nay sayers a while back.

I don't see it being a difficult subject to address. Say the dragon is added... Would it be more powerfull than a rune beetle?
There's no special moves, no special ablities, it's just a tough dragon. I could see them being used again, but I seriously doubt their dominance. Worst case, nerf em!

 

[Nixon[I-C]]

I was actually looking at it from a PvM perspective, for a change. Whilst I agree with everything that has been said about the PvP, I believe the idea behind the buffing of the Dragon, is less about the taming aspect, and more about the challenge.

How many posts have we seen from players going on about wishing Dragons were comparable to several years ago? Having to joust in order to kill and the likes. Whilst it is great, you may need to eventually do that again, every single monster should be rebuffed accordingly.

I don't see much point in rebuffing just one monster, as it will just force normal players to hunt elsewhere, relatively risk free.

 

[Guest]

It's a difficult subject to discuss because of the emotional response trying to do so generates from people, not because of the subject itself. There's always staunch defenders of any type of character, but Tamers always come off to me as being the hardest to discuss things logically with.
That's not an insult in any way, just the way things are in my experience.

In answer to your theories.. You can't just go balancing something against something else that's not balanced, you end up running around in circles.
I'd be the first to say things like stealth archery need to be addressed, but this isn't the subject at hand.

<blockquote><hr>

Lets face one, small, seemly insignificant fact, good pvp tamers -are- few and far between. This statement ignores gate tactics, as I don't care what you are, you're blue, and you hide at GZ's, you're gonna get cheap shots off.

[/ QUOTE ]
I will maintain my position that gate fighting should never, ever be considered when dealing with things like this, it's a ****isation of PvP in my eyes.
In the same breath you say skilled tamers are few and far between, that's mainly because most players like myself refuse to use them and those that do are ridiculed (and rightfully so). It's also a case of the idea not having spread widely enough and the skill being harder to train than say, Archery.
Again, you can't focus balance from the perspective that it's fine because they're rare or hard to obtain. That's a rediculous mistake I see being made all the time, you need only look at the original design for Artifacts to see an example of this short-sightedness in UO.

<blockquote><hr>

Compare that to -many- other, simpler to play templates, that have had instant, controllable kills in the past, or the ones that require no more luck than a couple hits in a row.

[/ QUOTE ]
in the past
This is the key part of your statement, it was in the past because it was re-balanced and now isn't possible. In practically every single case I was there saying it needed to be done, just as I am on this issue.
Now I could just be absurdly lucky, or, there's a slither of a chance, I may know what I'm talking about.

<blockquote><hr>

I've been killed by current archers, where it's only two shots. But I see -far- more archers than tamers, even now, we're suposed to have swarms of them according to nay sayers a while back.

[/ QUOTE ]
You haven't been 2 hit killed by an archer under the current ruleset, unless your character is poorly designed, that's literally impossible. 3 shots maybe.
Again, I agree with you, but I don't see the relevance, archers are an issue right now, as are tamers, it's nice that there are actually only a few problem issues like this now.
Yes, there are swarms of archers, and there are swarms of tamers, you are seeing things from your individual perspective on a single server. It's my experience (and individual perspective) that the potential taming templates in my mind haven't spread all that widely, which is awesome, but it doesn't negate the fact it needs to be addressed now before they do.

<blockquote><hr>


I don't see it being a difficult subject to address. Say the dragon is added... Would it be more powerfull than a rune beetle?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. thanks to Nico's posts I can clearly see they would be.

 

[Llewen]

I play a blue pvp tamer, and I do hide in the guard zone when I am out numbered. It has nothing to do with cowardice, or lack of skill, it's just smart. I can handle a two on one gank, even a three on one gank as long as I'm not playing against really good pvp'rs, but often I am outnumbered four, five, or six or more to one. The guard zone allows me to have some fun even in situations like that.

I don't think pet balls should be nerfed. They are often the only way to get your pets around obstacles, and certainly in situations where you are badly out numbered, they are one of the only ways to prevent your pet from being squashed. Removing pet balls would make playing a pvp tamer even more challenging than it already is, and it is already one of the most challenging templates to play in pvp as it is, and as has already been discussed, it is one of the weaker templates in high end pvm situations.

Yes, I play a pvp tamer, so yes, maybe I am biased, but I also happen to know what I am talking about, which is more than can be said for most of the tamer haters. The numbers don't lie, people always, naturally, take the path of least resistance. If being a pvp tamer was as easy as so many seem to think it is, there would be far more of them than there presently are, and at least on my shard, they are one of the least common pvp templates, which, in my opinion, says more about how over powered they are than just about anything else.

I've said this many times, but I'll say it again, and again, as often as I have the opportunity, the only place pvp tamers are over powered is on Seige. That is born out by the disproportionate number of pvp tamers that play on Siege. The simplest and most effect fix for this would be to make a bonded pet count as your Siege blessed item.

I am not completely against removing pet balls, but if they do, two things need to happen. First they need to remove skill decay for pets, and second they need to improve the coding in the following algorithms so pets don't get hung up on objects like building corners. Unless and until they do that, getting rid of pet balls, or nerfing them, would kill the viability of pvp tamers completely. Of course, as I've said before as well, that is the only thing that will make the tamer haters happy. If that happens, EA will lose two subscriptions...


<blockquote><hr>

In the same breath you say skilled tamers are few and far between, that's mainly because most players like myself refuse to use them and those that do are ridiculed (and rightfully so).

[/ QUOTE ]
Complete bs. On the single dedicated pvp shard, tamers are a problem, there is a disproportionate number of them. Of course maybe the pvp'rs there aren't as noble as you are? Again, complete bs, people always follow the path of least resistance. At any point in the history of UO you can always tell which are the over powered templates by the numbers of people that use them. That was the case with lesser hiryus when they were over powered, and every single over powered template that preceded them. Maybe you are too noble to take the easy way out, for the vast majority of pvp'rs this is not the case, why the heck do you think cheating is such a problem?

<blockquote><hr>

It's also a case of the idea not having spread widely enough and the skill being harder to train than say, Archery.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is actually true. Whether you recognize it or not, 90% of pvp happens before you hit the field, and has to do with training skills, putting together your suit, setting up your macros and learning how to use them, etc. etc. All these things are just as much a part of pvp as keyboard mashing under pressure is. They are part of the skill set of a real pvp'r, and what you have said is part of the reason why I say a pvp tamer on a standard rules set shard, is one of the most challenging templates to play in pvp.

 

[imported_Sarphus]

<blockquote><hr>

Personally, my solution to this part of the issue would be to make pet balls unusable for a certain period after issuing any kill command.
It leaves them viable for legitimate protection and only commits someone if they actively attack a person/monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, and I'm cool with that, but it doesn't do anything to prevent really gimpy uses of the pet ball such as calling in your pet after you've used some other gimpy ability to disable your opponent (nerve strike, dismount, etc)

I think there needs to be an attack delay to make the pet ball balanced in pvp.

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

I think there needs to be an attack delay to make the pet ball balanced in pvp.

[/ QUOTE ]
<blockquote><hr>

I am not completely against removing pet balls, but if they do, two things need to happen. First they need to remove skill decay for pets, and second they need to improve the coding in the following algorithms so pets don't get hung up on objects like building corners. Unless and until they do that, getting rid of pet balls, or nerfing them, would kill the viability of pvp tamers completely. Of course, as I've said before as well, that is the only thing that will make the tamer haters happy. If that happens, EA will lose two subscriptions...

[/ QUOTE ]

 

[Terraxia]

My archers stealth and non stealth have no problem dealing with tamers. The super gimp Hiryu bokuto users are finished, and pets are the same color as their controlers so there is not a balance issue. I kill and reskill thier pets all the time. Cu shides are a problem, so as a balance issue I propose making wolf slayer tailismans. We got a new crop of Cu riding dismount archers that are becoming popular, so we need a balance to that.

 

[Guest]

bad idea

 

[Guest]

"Why should EA cater to pvpers when others do it 10 times better and pvpers are only a very small group.
I agree that ea would do better with interesting pvm features and maybe if that runs well work on the pvp features again."

Take a look at this. http://town.uo.com/guilds/shard_7.html

If PvPers are a minority, then why is the largest guild on Napa a PvP/Spawn guild? \R\ is like a month old and is already larger than M^F, a PvM guild that is over 8 years old. I'm not just talking about characters in guild, i mean players. \R\ can easily put out more players on a battlefield at a time than the 3 largest PvM guilds on Napa can put together.

It's been this way for years on Napa, some guild forms over night with 100+ members, they dominate the Champ Spawns and PvP scene because of their mass numbers (Plus the fact the large guild almost always has 80%+ of it's members using cheat programs), and they run a complete monopoly on the PS business. Then after a few months the guild dissolves, and another +100 member guild springs up over night to take their place, often times consisting of the same people with a few new faces.

So basically a person like me who absolutely refuses to cheat or join a guild that promotes cheating, it's like fighting against an army by yourself. If i want a PS, i have to pay the Cheating Dominant Monopoly guild a couple mill to buy a PS from them. It's absolute bull$#!t.

 

[Al Thorin]

<blockquote><hr>

It's a difficult subject to discuss because of the emotional response .... but Tamers always come off to me as being the hardest to discuss things logically with.

[/ QUOTE ]I can agree with that actually. I do defend my template and playstyle wholeheartedly.

<blockquote><hr>

In answer to your theories.. You can't just go balancing something against something else that's not balanced, you end up running around in circles.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm curious as to what would be considered unballanced? As it stands, pet dragons are woefully pathetic creatures. Even the 'ubber' dragon compares somewhat to a Cu, although the dragon would still have 150ish more HP, it's damage range is close (+3 over that of a Cu), and lacks specials moves outside of firebreath. Granted firebreath on meaner dragon is not something to ignore.
Even though I doubt a dragon of that level would be ballanced off the get go, even if it were a 5 follower pet, I still think it would be a nice addition. Tweaking pending

<blockquote><hr>

...most players like myself refuse to use them and those that do are ridiculed (and rightfully so). It's also a case of the idea not having spread widely enough and the skill being harder to train than say, Archery.

[/ QUOTE ]I'll argue with you about the 'most' statement. For this, I present Word of Death, Double Striking Lumberjacks, Archers from the pits of hell, Matrix like Evaders, 5/6 mages, and numerous other overpowered templates that have existed in the past, and were abused to rediculous levels. There's a fairly large portion of PVP'rs that can, will, and do jump to the most effective template. In fact, they do it so regularly that I am willing to debate the 'hardness' of training Taming. Taming, universally, has been one of the strong and most reliably powerfull templates for a very long time. I don't think in 1v1 they have ever been considered fair, even against the best, a good PVP tamer can still win possibly much more often than not. So, train taming once, or 8 other skills... taming doesn't seem to be that hard to obtain, and since when did a PVP'r let the difficulty in obtaining a skill or item get in the way of pwnage?

<blockquote><hr>

in the past
This is the key part of your statement, it was in the past because it was re-balanced and now isn't possible. In practically every single case I was there saying it needed to be done, just as I am on this issue.
Now I could just be absurdly lucky, or, there's a slither of a chance, I may know what I'm talking about.

[/ QUOTE ] It's still possible. Insta kills, not so much, but special combo's, chaining etc, still have a very high DOT. A highly skilled dexer or mage hybred can still mow down even moderatly skilled players, in groups, alone, or one after the other. They still maintain a much higher level of control over a tamer, and control over your damage can be far more dangerous than damage -potential- over the long run.

<blockquote><hr>

You haven't been 2 hit killed by an archer under the current ruleset, unless your character is poorly designed, that's literally impossible. 3 shots maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]No, it's not litterally impossible. It -is- possible, even if it's more of a strike of luck, it can happen. 3 shots is much more likely, but that's still only ~4 seconds, and depending on other factors, you can still easily find yourself very dead before you can do anything about it. Similarly to fighting a tamer, it's not gaurenteed, but it's still very possible.

<blockquote><hr>

of archers, and there are swarms of tamers, you are seeing things from your individual perspective on a single server. It's my experience (and individual perspective) that the potential taming templates in my mind haven't spread all that widely, which is awesome, but it doesn't negate the fact it needs to be addressed now before they do.

[/ QUOTE ]
Granted, it is my perspective, and also, I havn't played much in a couple months. Looking at skill averages, taming has indeed gained in popularity (besides the fact it's always been a good standby template, many people have them regardless of their activities).

<blockquote><hr>

Yes. thanks to Nico's posts I can clearly see they would be.

[/ QUOTE ] See my.. second reply? I dont see the issue so clearly myself.
Did nico test it in PVP or something?

 

[Al Thorin]

<blockquote><hr>

that's mainly because most players like myself refuse to use them and those that do are ridiculed (and rightfully so).

[/ QUOTE ]Also, and please give me your truthfull answer (which I generally expect from you anyways).
Do you think playing as a -skilled- tamer requires more skill, concentration and varying tactics than most templates?

My personal opinion is, yes. There really is no wonder combo on a tamer. They perform and require very different tactics depending on situations, open field vs hallway, vs cornering people. There's scores of tactics available to disrupt tamers, and they have to deal with and -rely- on inherently stupid AI.

The majority of Tamers I have -ever- seen rely on one or two tactics, and only perform well in very specific situations. Most of them get slaughtered the moment they loose their limited edge. Take your pick, stealth/surprize, dismount, picking off solo players, etc.

I really havn't seen that many -good- tamers. Tamers that will fight well regardless of where they are. In fact, most tamers I've seen tend to be area specific, the one or two areas where they excel, and no where else.

 

[Guest]

Absoloutely, I think to play a PvP tamer well requires a fair amount of skill. In the same breath to play one poorly is pretty easy.
I've messed around with a couple of templates recently and you're right they are very situation specific, mainly once someone is dismounted in some way, I'd stand right behind you and say that dismount is probably the main cause of the problem, pairing any method of doing it with taming is what makes it such a problem.
But with just 2 skills invested, it becomes an add-on skill, you can add it to any well rounded basic template. I'd ideally like to see Veterinary become a compulsory skill somehow, or if not required at least much weaker without it.
I also don't see regulating dismount because of this situation as a good solution, I'd love for it to be taken out of the game entirely, but without then going on to throw in other things like a proper mount stamina system it would lead to horrible, horrible running contests in a lot of cases.

The biggest issues for me with pets right now is their specials, petball idiocy and Kitsunes.
The dragon here has specials, combined with firebreath, combined with a much bigger HP pool (I believe this influences firebreath damage?), mana pool, multiple skills &gt; 100 and I imagine a much stronger melee attack.
I just think it needs to be balanced before being introduced, I'm all for it, if it's well balanced. Especially as there are multiple methods of obtaining the slayer property to deal with them, even on spellbooks.
I think that's the situation here, they're going in, just they simply aren't properly tested and balanced yet so it caused a bit of a gut reaction from people, one way or the other.

 

[imported_Sarphus]

That's correct Noxin, fire breath dmg is directly proportional to the HP remaining on the critter that's breathing fire. That's why hell hounds have really weak fire dmg, but dragons hit harder. It's also why when you have a dragon mostly its fire breath is weak.

With what I've seen in these critter stats, I'm not sure people will be slaying these new dragons in pvp situations. It looks like they can have as much as 90 fire resist and as much as 70 energy resist, which makes killing one of these on a mage possibly very difficult even with a slayer spellbook. People will still kill these dragons in pvp, but I suspect mages won't be killing them as much. The one saving grace for mages in battling these dragons is that the resists on these dragons have a 30 point swing, which means people who run these pets will have to choose what attributes to be strong in.

Even if there was a place to farm these dragons and go through 300+ of them an hour (like you can with bakes and rune beetles); you wouldn't see people running around with dragons even close to capped in everything. That's one of the things I like most about these dragons. They're so complex and interesting. A perfect super dragon would be in the ballpark of 3x as rare as a perfect rune beetle (which I don't think anyone has ever seen).

PS.

Does anyone know what the equation is to determine the dmg from fire breath?

 

[Al Thorin]

lol, I'll agree with you there outright, it's very easy to jump onto a tamer, and kill people.
Although, that usually seems to involve hidding in GZ's, some degree of skill is -required- to leave the safety of GZ's, or the cover of stealth.
Afterall, tamers are fairly hated, and often targeted.

I also agree, I think Vet should be a requirement to res your own pet.
Maybe something like..
Taming Skills / 3 have to be greater than the animals min taming req or the animal takes %10 statloss. Unless the req taming is less than 30.

I think a tamer should be required to res their own pet.

Now you say they -are- going in... has this been confirmed anywhere?!

 

[imported_Sarphus]

I like your idea of working vet into the mix. It's not hard to work vet. I think you could GM it in day, so I don't think there's really any justification for not having vet if you want to call yourself a tamer

 

[Al Thorin]

Me either. I used to run without vet pre bonding, and I don't see any reason why a tamer couldn't do it now, but pet rezing is directly linked to Vet, and a tamer should have to res their own pet, or face a penalty.

 

[Al Thorin]

Ack, and for goodness sakes, don't change pet balls!
Well, I suposed a little tweaking could be done, but overall, I don't really want to see them changed unless pets listen well.

 

[imported_Sarphus]

The "pets listen well" portion is pet auto-defend. We should be able to disable pet auto-defend imo.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Taming Skills / 3 have to be greater than the animals min taming req or the animal takes %10 statloss. Unless the req taming is less than 30.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this, I was thinking along the same lines of ways to tie Vet into the system to make it more of a requirement than a bonus. Every template I've ever come up with that involves taming would be far less powerful if it needed Vet.
But I'd hold my hands up and admit I haven't really thought it through very far.

<blockquote><hr>

Now you say they -are- going in... has this been confirmed anywhere?!

[/ QUOTE ]
Not to my knowledge, I'm just taking an educated guess, they'd make a good addition, I get the impression they've already been made and were just accidently added before they were completely ready.
which is pretty much good news for both "sides".

 

[imported_Sarphus]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Taming Skills / 3 have to be greater than the animals min taming req or the animal takes %10 statloss. Unless the req taming is less than 30.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this, I was thinking along the same lines of ways to tie Vet into the system to make it more of a requirement than a bonus. Every template I've ever come up with that involves taming would be far less powerful if it needed Vet.
But I'd hold my hands up and admit I haven't really thought it through very far.

<blockquote><hr>

Now you say they -are- going in... has this been confirmed anywhere?!

[/ QUOTE ]
Not to my knowledge, I'm just taking an educated guess, they'd make a good addition, I get the impression they've already been made and were just accidently added before they were completely ready.
which is pretty much good news for both "sides".

[/ QUOTE ]

The proposal of vet being required to control pets is fine with me. Vet is SOOOO easy to train. The only real harm I can see in the vet requirement is that new tamers that are grinding their taming skills tend to work vet last. It's quick enough to train vet that I don't think it will be a problem, though. If you create your char in KR, you can start with 50 lore 50 taming and 20 vet and be GM vet in an evening.

I agree with noxin that a change such as that would seriously harm some of the gimplates that abuse taming.


About these buffed dragons going in... I think they are and I think they should (in one form or another). I think the creature adds an interesting tameable to the arsenal of tamers. I think they need to be implemented in a way that doesn't damage pvp, but enriches pvm.

As I understand it, the devs didn't intend to patch in the new dragons yet because they haven't gone through the QA process, so the devs haven't put these dragons through their paces and decided how powerful they should be yet. I think it was actually good that they accidentally released the dragons, though. That mistake allowed them to see some of the player feedback before they spent time balancing out the dragons. I think it's likely that our abundant feedback will help the devs make these new dragons a positive addition to UO.

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

If the goal is to make these pets truly difficult to tame, the ability to honor tame them needs to be removed.

[/ QUOTE ]
They are already difficult to tame, and unless you have at least level two honour, you won't have much luck taming them using honour, even at 120 taming. Honour should be left alone, honour is hard to come by, and goes down very quickly when it is used. People say it is easy to get honour from succubus, but succubus are only relatively easy to kill if you have a very advanced character, for most people they are a b*tch, and if you are hunting them in Ilshenar, and a paragon spawns, those are extremely tough for even advanced characters, especially tamers.

<blockquote><hr>

I control and "right to own" this pet should ONLY look at your real skill.

[/ QUOTE ]Unless you are going to revamp the skill add property completely and make this kind of thing apply to everything, this would be unfair, and if you do that, you might as well remove it from the game entirely.

<blockquote><hr>

Taming Skills / 3 have to be greater than the animals min taming req or the animal takes %10 statloss. Unless the req taming is less than 30.

[/ QUOTE ]
I actually like this idea, and remove skill loss completely if you meet the requirement. Lesser hiryus should be the exception though if you have bushido. They have already been whacked with the nerf stick hard enough in my opinion.

There has also been a great deal of complaining about dismount tamers in this thread. Well the truth is, that with the speed of even the fastest pets, and the horrible pet AI, if you remove the ability to dismount, you just about completely destroy the viability of tamers in pvp, except perhaps in very specific, specialized contexts.

 

[Guest]

I don't have any objection to making these honor-tame-proof. Solo it makes for the single most challenging tame ever. I happen to enjoy that immensely though I appreciate not everyone does.

With support from fellow players, taming a Super Dragon still makes for a challenging activity. Not only is it fun, but (thinking in terms of a guild here) a pet/tamer combo from which the guild would likely benefit as a whole.

As for Right to Own looking only at Real Skill for Super Dragon, again, I have no objection to that one. Super Dragon is a pet best suited to a skilled &amp; experienced tamer char with all the relevant taming skills.

@ Sarphus, Al Thorin &amp; Noxin, thanks to discord speed training, I have one Super Dragon approaching pvp fight readiness. Dex is maxxed at 125, melee skills &amp; eval/resist in the 90's so should be GMed later today. Wrestling continues to gain (currently 107.5) and Magery remains at tamed cap of 113.1 - all else appears to be GM/100 cap as usual.