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LOL really? that about makes all that change useless... who is gunna fight without the skill that actually gives damage? lol
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This is in TESTING we are here to debate the changes and give incite into why they need adjusted or left out nothing is in stone yet these are proposed changes!OMG WTF are you Devs thining about? Screw over PvP dexterS then screw over PvM sampireS.
Well it looks like 11 years may be enough for me.
This. Exactly this.
Better Context:
Since secondary support skills modify the damage of the primary skills you are only allow to have one primary above 30.0 and one secondary above 30.0.
Pure Mage = Magery + Eval Int
Pure Mystic = Mysticism + Focus/Imbuing
Pure Necro = Necromancy + Spirit Speak
Pure Spellweaver = Spellweaving
"Focused" Titles are unlocked upon meeting the required skills.
A
Arafel Ilianna
Guest
I have said this before in several different Stratics Forum posts:
PvP is very different from PvM!
Intuitively, we all know this, of course. But the differences that exist are critical, and should not be dismissed as so much "hot air."
Let me start by reiterating for what seems like the hundredth time:
I am a PvM-ONLY player. I recognize that there are serious issues for PvP players regarding the balance of the game, especially with respect to the effects granted by various skills, spells, potions, modifiers, and special moves. SO BY ALL MEANS: PVP players: continue to report the problems! Dev Team members: continue to address the problems! BUT PLEASE DO NOT ALLOW PVP "FIXES" TO AFFECT PVM PLAYERS! How to do this? Simply have whatever changes are made only take effect in Felucca. (Guild fighting and Faction fighting outside of Felucca would just have to use the PvM ruleset).
Why am I against changes that "nerf" skills and special moves with respect to PvM? There is a very simple answer, and it is tied to the most significant difference between PvM combat and PvP combat: The differences between a PvP opponent and a PvM opponent!
1.) The hit points of monsters versus the hit points of players. No player in the game can have more than, say, 150-200 hit points (and that is with all kinds of modifications and bonuses from once source or another.) Monsters—especially high-end monsters—can have THOUSANDS... or even TENS-OF-THOUSANDS of hit points. What this means is that a PvP player can quickly be defeated by his or her opponent with a few well-placed strikes. A Monster, on the other hand, must be slowly worn down over time, making the PvM combat encounter a marathon, compared to the PvP sprint;
2.) The mana pool granted to monsters versus players. High-end monsters can seemingly cast spells and use special moves in an unending succession, while players must painstakingly regenerate every precious mana point many times during a long PvM combat encounter;
3.) The special moves / special attacks granted to monsters versus those granted to players. On the one hand, you could say, "hey a fire daemon fires a 60-hit point Fireball—my mage can fire those off too!" But what makes it so different is that the MONSTER'S attack consumes such a high percentage of the player-target's hit points, while the player's attack barely consumes any of the monster’s hit points. This makes the player’s attacks far less powerful and dangerous than the monster’s attacks, relatively speaking. Between otherwise-balanced player templates in the PvP realm, you do not find this sort of disparity. For example, in PvP, two legendary mages with similar armor and modifications will each be able to damage the other in approximately similar proportions versus each other’s hit point totals.
Sure, some would argue that a PvP opponent introduces a HUMAN AI. A human AI far outstrips a computer AI, at least in the UO world. (Some of you are snickering at this, thinking of the less-able PvPers out there!) What this means is that a human being will always do his/her best to play his/her characters in the most effective and efficient manner. No monster in the game, for example, duplicates the motions of running away to heal, using potions to help heal or cure himself, cross-healing, stealthing, attacking from stealth, hiding or casting invisibility on himself to shake off an attacker, and then using a combination of special attacks to renew the fight—all in rapid succession. Sure—SOME monsters may use one or two "human-like" tactics (e.g., the trapdoor spider attacking from stealth)—but none use them all, and none use them with the speed and efficiency of a human player. But, the human AI is where the fun of PvP comes from—after all, you are testing your skills against those of another human being, and there are bragging rights to be had! With respect to the game mechanics, however, the human AI difference is irrelevant to this discussion, because all PvPers bring a human AI to the table—it’s as balanced (or unbalanced) as it’s ever going to get!
While there are other notable differences between PvP opponents and PvM opponents, the message is clear: While monsters have been slowly becoming more powerful over time, the players' abilities to keep up have been hampered. Many PvP players complained about the power of the Mysticism spells, especially Cleansing Winds and Spell Plague, when they were first introduced. The problem was NOT that the Mysticism spells were too powerful versus all of the new monsters of Ter Mur and the Abyss. It was that the Mysticism spells were too powerful when applied to the PvP arena. If you look at the main combat spell systems that have been introduced into the game AFTER magery, (in order, Necromancy, Spellweaving, and Mysticism), you will see that each of the new systems introduced spells that were arguably more powerful than what magery had to offer. Again, this represented a big problem in the PvP world, while in the PvM world, the new power was a much-needed tonic against all of the new monsters that were coming out. In the PvP world, players screamed “Foul!” at the effect of the new spells. In the PvM world, players recognized that Mysticism spells were not too powerful—they were right where they needed to be to allow characters to survive in the Abyss (or at least to ensure that one did not die too many times). While folks in the PvP realm complained that Mysticism was too powerful for the game, folks in the PvM realm contended that Mysticism was fine—and that Magery, Necromancy, and Spellweaving needed to be beefed-up, just to keep them as relevant fighting tools next to the new Mysticism spells.
There is one other small point to make here, and that is about the potential death rate of characters. All characters die in the game—this is a normal and expected part of UO. An experienced veteran PvP player who sets off in search of a good fight knows that his opponents may get the better of him. While there is a lot of bravado and in-game-chat taunting that goes along with PvP, the players who participate in PvP know that everyone will have strong skills, strong armor and weapons, and lots of tricks up their proverbial sleeves. What the PvP player is looking for, then, is a balance between the skills and special attacks such that one or two particular templates do not become virtually unbeatable. While every PvP player is constantly on the lookout for even the slightest edge, he/she recognizes that PvP is, inherently, an even-chance proposition. An experienced, veteran PvM player, on the other hand, knows that, when fighting the toughest monsters, success will not be measured so much in the final outcome of victory over the monster, but in how many times his/her character must die to achieve that victory. Eventually, the monster will be defeated, but at what cost? Thus, for PvP and PvM players, “game balance” translates very differently. The death-rate of characters is but one measure of this balance.
So in conclusion, I will tell you that the nurfs proposed to Chivalry will be a real hardship for PvM players. The nurfs that the Cleansing Winds and Spell Plague Mysticism spells have already suffered have translated into a higher death rate for PvM players—even as the Abyss continues to become more and more populated with deadly monsters, and fewer and fewer places remain where a group of players can heal and regroup. Will players adjust to whatever changes ultimately get handed down, just as they always have? Sure they will—but let us remember that UO is a game that we pay to come and ENJOY. There is a difference between making things challenging and making things too tough to enjoy! UO should not be an exercise in constantly having to struggle—either with reworking templates, or simply having to endure less-and-less effective skills in an increasingly difficult combat setting. Thus I would ask, plead, and beg for these proposed changes NOT to apply to PvM settings. Let Divine Fury continue to fully refresh stamina. Let Remove Curse continue to fully remove all curses. Let Consecrate Weapon allow damage to be focused on the monster’s weakest resistance. PLEASE stop knocking down the power of our spells, skills, and special moves—our monster opponents are only getting stronger all the time! Or, have you not yet experienced a "Minion of Scelstus?!?"
PLEASE DO NOT APPLY PVP FIXES TO THE PVM SIDE OF THE GAME!
Lady Arafel Ilianna
Lake Superior
PvP is very different from PvM!
Intuitively, we all know this, of course. But the differences that exist are critical, and should not be dismissed as so much "hot air."
Let me start by reiterating for what seems like the hundredth time:
I am a PvM-ONLY player. I recognize that there are serious issues for PvP players regarding the balance of the game, especially with respect to the effects granted by various skills, spells, potions, modifiers, and special moves. SO BY ALL MEANS: PVP players: continue to report the problems! Dev Team members: continue to address the problems! BUT PLEASE DO NOT ALLOW PVP "FIXES" TO AFFECT PVM PLAYERS! How to do this? Simply have whatever changes are made only take effect in Felucca. (Guild fighting and Faction fighting outside of Felucca would just have to use the PvM ruleset).
Why am I against changes that "nerf" skills and special moves with respect to PvM? There is a very simple answer, and it is tied to the most significant difference between PvM combat and PvP combat: The differences between a PvP opponent and a PvM opponent!
1.) The hit points of monsters versus the hit points of players. No player in the game can have more than, say, 150-200 hit points (and that is with all kinds of modifications and bonuses from once source or another.) Monsters—especially high-end monsters—can have THOUSANDS... or even TENS-OF-THOUSANDS of hit points. What this means is that a PvP player can quickly be defeated by his or her opponent with a few well-placed strikes. A Monster, on the other hand, must be slowly worn down over time, making the PvM combat encounter a marathon, compared to the PvP sprint;
2.) The mana pool granted to monsters versus players. High-end monsters can seemingly cast spells and use special moves in an unending succession, while players must painstakingly regenerate every precious mana point many times during a long PvM combat encounter;
3.) The special moves / special attacks granted to monsters versus those granted to players. On the one hand, you could say, "hey a fire daemon fires a 60-hit point Fireball—my mage can fire those off too!" But what makes it so different is that the MONSTER'S attack consumes such a high percentage of the player-target's hit points, while the player's attack barely consumes any of the monster’s hit points. This makes the player’s attacks far less powerful and dangerous than the monster’s attacks, relatively speaking. Between otherwise-balanced player templates in the PvP realm, you do not find this sort of disparity. For example, in PvP, two legendary mages with similar armor and modifications will each be able to damage the other in approximately similar proportions versus each other’s hit point totals.
Sure, some would argue that a PvP opponent introduces a HUMAN AI. A human AI far outstrips a computer AI, at least in the UO world. (Some of you are snickering at this, thinking of the less-able PvPers out there!) What this means is that a human being will always do his/her best to play his/her characters in the most effective and efficient manner. No monster in the game, for example, duplicates the motions of running away to heal, using potions to help heal or cure himself, cross-healing, stealthing, attacking from stealth, hiding or casting invisibility on himself to shake off an attacker, and then using a combination of special attacks to renew the fight—all in rapid succession. Sure—SOME monsters may use one or two "human-like" tactics (e.g., the trapdoor spider attacking from stealth)—but none use them all, and none use them with the speed and efficiency of a human player. But, the human AI is where the fun of PvP comes from—after all, you are testing your skills against those of another human being, and there are bragging rights to be had! With respect to the game mechanics, however, the human AI difference is irrelevant to this discussion, because all PvPers bring a human AI to the table—it’s as balanced (or unbalanced) as it’s ever going to get!
While there are other notable differences between PvP opponents and PvM opponents, the message is clear: While monsters have been slowly becoming more powerful over time, the players' abilities to keep up have been hampered. Many PvP players complained about the power of the Mysticism spells, especially Cleansing Winds and Spell Plague, when they were first introduced. The problem was NOT that the Mysticism spells were too powerful versus all of the new monsters of Ter Mur and the Abyss. It was that the Mysticism spells were too powerful when applied to the PvP arena. If you look at the main combat spell systems that have been introduced into the game AFTER magery, (in order, Necromancy, Spellweaving, and Mysticism), you will see that each of the new systems introduced spells that were arguably more powerful than what magery had to offer. Again, this represented a big problem in the PvP world, while in the PvM world, the new power was a much-needed tonic against all of the new monsters that were coming out. In the PvP world, players screamed “Foul!” at the effect of the new spells. In the PvM world, players recognized that Mysticism spells were not too powerful—they were right where they needed to be to allow characters to survive in the Abyss (or at least to ensure that one did not die too many times). While folks in the PvP realm complained that Mysticism was too powerful for the game, folks in the PvM realm contended that Mysticism was fine—and that Magery, Necromancy, and Spellweaving needed to be beefed-up, just to keep them as relevant fighting tools next to the new Mysticism spells.
There is one other small point to make here, and that is about the potential death rate of characters. All characters die in the game—this is a normal and expected part of UO. An experienced veteran PvP player who sets off in search of a good fight knows that his opponents may get the better of him. While there is a lot of bravado and in-game-chat taunting that goes along with PvP, the players who participate in PvP know that everyone will have strong skills, strong armor and weapons, and lots of tricks up their proverbial sleeves. What the PvP player is looking for, then, is a balance between the skills and special attacks such that one or two particular templates do not become virtually unbeatable. While every PvP player is constantly on the lookout for even the slightest edge, he/she recognizes that PvP is, inherently, an even-chance proposition. An experienced, veteran PvM player, on the other hand, knows that, when fighting the toughest monsters, success will not be measured so much in the final outcome of victory over the monster, but in how many times his/her character must die to achieve that victory. Eventually, the monster will be defeated, but at what cost? Thus, for PvP and PvM players, “game balance” translates very differently. The death-rate of characters is but one measure of this balance.
So in conclusion, I will tell you that the nurfs proposed to Chivalry will be a real hardship for PvM players. The nurfs that the Cleansing Winds and Spell Plague Mysticism spells have already suffered have translated into a higher death rate for PvM players—even as the Abyss continues to become more and more populated with deadly monsters, and fewer and fewer places remain where a group of players can heal and regroup. Will players adjust to whatever changes ultimately get handed down, just as they always have? Sure they will—but let us remember that UO is a game that we pay to come and ENJOY. There is a difference between making things challenging and making things too tough to enjoy! UO should not be an exercise in constantly having to struggle—either with reworking templates, or simply having to endure less-and-less effective skills in an increasingly difficult combat setting. Thus I would ask, plead, and beg for these proposed changes NOT to apply to PvM settings. Let Divine Fury continue to fully refresh stamina. Let Remove Curse continue to fully remove all curses. Let Consecrate Weapon allow damage to be focused on the monster’s weakest resistance. PLEASE stop knocking down the power of our spells, skills, and special moves—our monster opponents are only getting stronger all the time! Or, have you not yet experienced a "Minion of Scelstus?!?"
PLEASE DO NOT APPLY PVP FIXES TO THE PVM SIDE OF THE GAME!
Lady Arafel Ilianna
Lake Superior
Yes. Warriors dont really need that extra physical resist, its the spells that usually do them, like multiple flamesrikes. I would at least change the extra phys resist to extra fire resist.
#1 ..... They have to START somewhere. If you don't like the changes @ least realize they are looking for Feedback NOT publishing it live tomorrow to all shards. So for all you "They are ruining PvM to fix PvP" people. They are simply proposing CHANGES.... Nothing is even close to set in stone yet. I'd be extremely surprised if they didn't have to completely rewrite the patch notes of what will actually happen b4 they live publish it.
#2..... Question for you Logrus. I assume that the secondary skills you mentioned are each paired with a primary skill set ex.. Magery / Eval -- Necro / SS -- Mystic / Imbue or Focus etc.. but that wasn't stated clearly. The way you posted it could be interpreted that having greater than 30 skill in any of those secondary skills listed would make you unable to receive the 40% SDI cap.
#3.... Now this is just my opinion... 45 Sec apple time is GREAT! Apples were not meant to be used EVERY time your cursed or Mortaled. I know some dexxers who slam an apple EVERY single time. So it amounts to a mage being missed enough to get a combo up that forces & apple then cycle & repeat it... 1 apple every succuessful combo etc... or even Mages that do the same with curse... = lame.
#2..... Question for you Logrus. I assume that the secondary skills you mentioned are each paired with a primary skill set ex.. Magery / Eval -- Necro / SS -- Mystic / Imbue or Focus etc.. but that wasn't stated clearly. The way you posted it could be interpreted that having greater than 30 skill in any of those secondary skills listed would make you unable to receive the 40% SDI cap.
#3.... Now this is just my opinion... 45 Sec apple time is GREAT! Apples were not meant to be used EVERY time your cursed or Mortaled. I know some dexxers who slam an apple EVERY single time. So it amounts to a mage being missed enough to get a combo up that forces & apple then cycle & repeat it... 1 apple every succuessful combo etc... or even Mages that do the same with curse... = lame.
Optimism is a nice thing, but what if they follow their previous pattern of:
- Publish to TC1 a week to month of "testing",
- Ignore 99.9% of p(l)ayer input,
- Tweak something(s) without telling us exactly what,
- Push it out to Origin for a day or two (so it can potentially be tested by non-godlike characters),
- Shove it onto the production servers and never look back.
What about inscription and poisoning. I haven't seen them listed in the primary or secondary list. Inscription would definitely affect SDI.
ok this makes more sense, i probably had like 33 focus in testing or something
C
Cloak&Dagger
Guest
It might be well written, but just because a change comes to the game some 5+ years after it was needed does not make it a bad change. I am neutral to the changes, I can understand wanting to leave them as is, and I do not see the affect they have on pvp (only talking about the Chivalry changes here) but at the same time I am an advocate of innovation and the fact that this is suppose to be a game that you should have to cooperate with other players to accomplish some tasks.
I agree with you that this is Testing, and while some people like to believe they ignore our input putting it in will in no way harm what comes out. People like to focus on the negative events and not on the positive ones, IE the example given of the HS changes but no regard for when do/did stop/change production of a publish.
J
jaashua
Guest
To me, this is the EXACT OPPOSITE route PvP should be taking.
What happens when somebody gets poisoned? They bolt from the screen. What happens when somebody get mortally wounded or hit with a necro curse? They bolt from the screen. Higher SDI means when you get to 50% life you're going to need to...bolt from the screen to heal.
Combat needs to last longer and yo need to find a way to keep this game from becoming about screen jousting.
What happens when somebody gets poisoned? They bolt from the screen. What happens when somebody get mortally wounded or hit with a necro curse? They bolt from the screen. Higher SDI means when you get to 50% life you're going to need to...bolt from the screen to heal.
Combat needs to last longer and yo need to find a way to keep this game from becoming about screen jousting.
More damage output will allow you to potentially kill your opponent before they run off screen.
With stat loss and stuff, whats the difference, alot of people run off screen if you get one spell off or connect with one weapon hit anyways. people run and apple immediatly as soon as you even curse them. These changes are nice.
I think the chiv change is kind of crappy for the pvm guys, but honestly, its much needed. Chivalry has always been a skill without a reason to have higher skill points in it unless you wanted to holy light, now it has a purpose. Don't we all just throw 120 chivs away anyways?
Im really concerned about the damage reduction after a block, this seems to emulate other games where a certain type of warrior cant really kill anything, but can take lots of damage.
Are the devs aware that most pure pvp templates DO NOT use chivalry? Potions / apples / ep made chiv obsolete. Also, post artificing uo, nearly all pvp characters have max resist suits. So, consecrate weapon is useless in pvp as well.
Simply the changes to pots / apples would give chiv a use in pvp again. That being said, casting times for chiv should be shortened. A mystic can cast one spell to cure / heal / remove curse. Given this fact, a pally, needing 3 spells for the effect of a mystics one, the pally spells should be shorted. Maybe make remove curse / heal / cure take 35-50 percent of the time it takes to cast a cleanse winds, or possibly even shorter because of the restraints 4/6 casting creates gearwise (devs probably arent aware of this either, devoting 20 percent of your weapon weight just for max casting speed is a major consideration. Overall fc gear is Very limited. a prepatch djinn's ring should not be the only option for a high - end 4/6 pally)
Id like to see chiv be a useful skill again, but this is not the way to do it.
Devs - you could Only make the changes to poisoning / pots / apples, and this would be enough to make chiv pvp useful again.
Are the devs aware that most pure pvp templates DO NOT use chivalry? Potions / apples / ep made chiv obsolete. Also, post artificing uo, nearly all pvp characters have max resist suits. So, consecrate weapon is useless in pvp as well.
Simply the changes to pots / apples would give chiv a use in pvp again. That being said, casting times for chiv should be shortened. A mystic can cast one spell to cure / heal / remove curse. Given this fact, a pally, needing 3 spells for the effect of a mystics one, the pally spells should be shorted. Maybe make remove curse / heal / cure take 35-50 percent of the time it takes to cast a cleanse winds, or possibly even shorter because of the restraints 4/6 casting creates gearwise (devs probably arent aware of this either, devoting 20 percent of your weapon weight just for max casting speed is a major consideration. Overall fc gear is Very limited. a prepatch djinn's ring should not be the only option for a high - end 4/6 pally)
Id like to see chiv be a useful skill again, but this is not the way to do it.
Devs - you could Only make the changes to poisoning / pots / apples, and this would be enough to make chiv pvp useful again.
C
Cloak&Dagger
Guest
Curiously what is the "Major" negative impact on pvm? If it is solely the Chivalry changes then let me ask you this, what did you do before you could have a "one template fits all" Model?
Running off screen has to do with the mindset of the current pvp player base. Most are cowardly and "afraid" to die, I mean I do not go out to die but if I do I do not see it as negative to my reputation only that I made a mistake that I should avoid next time I am out. No amount of tweaking will ever change this, what would you propose be a change to pvp? Not like we can take away all the shiny now that it has been so overly leaned on for so long.
I'm not a great one for theorising how changes will affect my game from half understood numbers. I'll withhold judgement till I've actually tried working with the new set up.
Does it really matter? PvM is already ridiculously easy and presents few real challenges, especially on normal shards. Surely you can accommodate the odd nerf here and there.
C
Carvone
Guest
Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?
C
Cloak&Dagger
Guest
It was already done for you.
C
Cloak&Dagger
Guest
I doubt that since the change is only for pvp centric players. Having taming and Magery in pvp with 40% sdi would be a landslide, or in most cases having taming and mystic with 40% sdi. From what I gather it is not an innate 40% sdi increase but rather an increase to the cap.
I have looked over everything in this list and I am thrilled with a lot of the proposed changes.
A lot of good special ability fixes and I always believed that chivalry needed exactly what they are suggesting. I don't mind having to take my chivalry higher to get effects that should have been scaled that way since day 1.
Very good ideas,
A lot of good special ability fixes and I always believed that chivalry needed exactly what they are suggesting. I don't mind having to take my chivalry higher to get effects that should have been scaled that way since day 1.
Very good ideas,
I'm not sure I understand this..
So 120 Magery (40 SDI Cap)
120 Magery with 120 eval (15 SDI cap)
120 magery with 29 Eval (40 SDI cap?)
L
longshanks
Guest
wonders if a greater refresh pot has the chance to fail as well, given the divine fury spell is scaled...
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What does that even mean?? Can I drop eval for some other skill now?
Once again I have been going back and forth about posting my reasons for liking the changes. I could never think of the correct way to word it. What you said here is exactly how I wanted to say it. I never understood why my great noble paladin only needed 70 or 80 chivalry.I don't mind having to take my chivalry higher to get effects that should have been scaled that way since day 1.
Very good ideas,
C
Cloak&Dagger
Guest
Come on you guys. Answer is right here.What does that even mean?? Can I drop eval for some other skill now?
Posts get lost in this mess really easy, they should make a seperate thread for each individual change
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120 magery means yo could get to 40sdi cap in pvp
120 magery plus eval 120 means you can get to 40sdi cap easier in pvp
120 magery plus 29 eval means you can get to 40 cap slightly easier
120 magery plus 120 eval plus 120 focus means 15 sdi
as long as you only have one focus group on template (or have them below 30) you can get focus
L
longshanks
Guest
so i guess a level 6 red weaver will be all the rage in choke points here on out.
rev up that wind
rev up that wind
C
Cloak&Dagger
Guest
Also Keep in mind that these are modified numbers, so if you have +30 on your jewels you wont get the focus. Or any number of +items that puts you over 29.9
C
Cloak&Dagger
Guest
Assuming they have no other skils in that list yes. So no magery/mystic/necro/taming/chiv. Do a lot of people run with 95+ weaving and none of these skills?
I agree in full. I'm a pvmer and these are very very bad changesSo why make it sound like it's about PvP when it sounds more like a PvM nerf?
I do hate it when things get "Balanced" or "Adjusted" in the name of PvP as all it does is mess up PvMers
Yea dude.. by the time I read 2 pages of posts and found one that I wanted to reply, I replied. There was about 30 other posts by the time I replied.Cloak‡1977123 said:
Need to have a separate thread for each proposed change to get any sort of intelligent conversation and feedback.
I is Lynk, and I is confussssed!
Oh my, chiv changes will be a lil annoying for your cross shard pvmers Lynk!
C
Cloak&Dagger
Guest
Could just check the Dev feedback area and see what was posted by only them. Not Much of a fix but it would at least be easier on you.
With racial bonus and a focus on chivalry I think my gargoyle paladin just got alot more fun
- Awards
- 1
I was thinking same thing
I may create some threads to discuss the areas
C
Cloak&Dagger
Guest
That actually brings up a question I did not even realize earlier. Does that mean we get 40% SDI from items and then 10% from Inscription?
No one lose sight of the fact that there is no sdi cap in pvm.