Classic shard.

[Kaleb]

Then no one would use regular GM made weapons. You'd have people running around with nothing but magic everything. GM smiths without the runic hammers would be out of business because runic would become the industry standard.

Second, it would put treasure hunters and fishermen out of business too. Why risk your neck digging up a treasure thats going to spawn balrons and dread spiders or fight a deep sea serpent or a kraken for a sunken treasure, when you can just sit in a smith shop, bot macro out a bunch of BoDs, and be able to make a bunch of vanq hallys, katanas, and krysses and tons of invul suits of armor?

No, runics were a bad idea then, and they would be a bad idea for the classic servers. There was a reason magic weapons were not craftable, and it was for the sake of economic and gameplay balance.

Its the other way around, an exceptional weapon is = to might, magic weaps eventually caused the demise of exceptional weapons. before runics, it got to the point to where if it were not power or better people wouldn't bother. Thus runics were added, it allowed the crafter to make weapons that were useful, there were no major dupes so the high end hammers were truly rare, that allowed PVM to remain viable. Eventually though people got verite and val hammers, and a lot of PvPers used their Item bless deed's on the weapons made from them causing an unbalance due to the players not loosing their weapons. but when players do loose them they float around the economy till they wear out, under the old system items had a chance to break on repair if too worn.

One of the servers I play has runics with the T2A ruleset no insurance, no item bless, and wear out just a tad faster than standard loot, People still buy looted weapons from PvMers and weapon vendors are everywhere. They stick to the same fourmula that OSI had which is that exceptional only adds +3 to damage, say making a force runic kryss its just a couple ticks less damage than a loot power weapon. crafted val weaps are the most powerful but the rarity of val BOD's and lack of dupes keep the flood gates closed on those weapons and those that do have them are less likely to use them based on the risk of loosing it being its value is too much for many. bronze-aggy seem to be the most made and sold.

Now don't get me wrong here I'm not saying a classic shard needs runics, but when they were released at the time crafters were down to doing mostly repairs, there was simply too much magic items in the system causing a drop in demand for your standard exceptional gear mostly weapons, exceptional armor still sold ok, and when first put into game it gave crafters some market share again. The Bod/runic system was a pretty solid system pre aos unfortunately AOS, Item bless deeds, Scripter's/dupers ruined the system and gave it a bad name.

 

[Babble]

I agree that magic weapons should either be rarer or better wear out faster and have a higher chance to break when repairing, so magic weapons do not become the norm.

Did runics have makers mark?

 

[Kaleb]

Did runics have makers mark?

yes

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

I agree that magic weapons should either be rarer or better wear out faster and have a higher chance to break when repairing, so magic weapons do not become the norm.

Did runics have makers mark?

While that would be an acceptable solution if a classic server were to have runic hammers I personally would hope they were not included into a classic ruleset server, though it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. Hell anything Pre-AOS would make me happy, even if it was a pub-15 shard with tram and everything else..

Since we're on the subject of crafting and runic hammers has there been any discussion of colored ores? While it was nice being able to craft a matching set of valorite heavy archer I also liked having to go to different vendors to try and build a matching set before the advent of colored ore.

 

[Evlar]

Ok, I see the points about runics, in relation to their worth for the crafter versus certain looted level weapons. The problem is, it's still a game reliant on items.

We can probably point at many reasons for the (my opinion) desmise of certain "core" crafting skills, or their importance. Imbuing is perhaps the most stand out for me, because it's pretty much been the final nail in the coffin. Runics and artifacts obviously didn't help either.

So, how about the following idea. No artifacts and no magical weapons (apart from "named" for posterity/decoration/rare purpose), which means that the original "core" crafter made weapons and armour, are the best there is?

Make the original crafters important community members again. Not everyone wants to run around killing creatures or other players, fun though that can be.

I simply believe that imbuing, has cast a very large shadow over a lot of other areas of the game personally. Runics were the shadow before that, along with artifacts. Simply put, for a game which is supposed to have prided itself on the heart and soul of its crafting system, a great many changes have come over the years, which have deminished certain skills and classes a great deal.

One thing has been brought in, tipped the balance, so they've made other changes in an attempt to compensate. Then the next expansion comes in, you have the same situation all over again. Most of this caused by the post AoS item dependancy.

Simplicity of crafting, focus on community supply and demand. Made by a player, sold by a player, to another player, which can then be repaired by a player. That is the heart, the soul and the depth of interaction, which I miss.

 

[Trebr Drab]

On stat loss for reds.
I think it's critical that there needs to be something closer to "enough" from the very start.

I suggest that stat loss be on death from the beginning. But that it be minimal at first, increasing with murder counts. I think the balance can be found inside this structure.
I also suggest that stat loss only happens if the red is killed while taking damage from a blue. Justice should be in the hands of the justice seekers or NPCs allied to "good", not from death by MOBs of fellow evil or neutral critters.

So, a PKer, like anyone else, gets 3 kills per week before going red. Once red, any death from "good" brings a small hit to stats, but increases with the murder counts beyond the initial red murderer state. Death by blue players, town guards, or any blue NPC brings on the stat loss.

Blue NPCs, I don't recall what all was blue. Town Guards were, vendors and hirelings and NPC mages, etc. were. Dogs weren't, even though they added them on the list as crimes for killing (not murder counts, but Guard callable, I think).

They could make town NPCs like Paladins, Rangers, Warriors to the list that will attack reds. Change the way guards are called, instead of teleporting they maybe should run, and follow a chain of "call guard" to the event location. As an NPC calls for guards, other NPCs in hearing range could also call, and the Guards follow that chain. Players could be part of the chain also, but the chain would have to start with an actual red within range or else PK guilds will abuse it. In other words, the "call guards" would have to be tagged as legit for players.
This could be used by blues also in this way. Reds show up, blue calls "Guards" in range, then run's to a location of known city Guards, and calls it again. They know where to go now, but might get hung up on following the chain. So the player could call "Guards" at several points along the way to mark a clearer trail.

This could make things more interesting to play "evil", as well as for blues. The trade off is the stat loss as the ultimate justice.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

Simplicity of crafting, focus on community supply and demand. Made by a player, sold by a player, to another player, which can then be repaired by a player. That is the heart, the soul and the depth of interaction, which I miss.

That is well said. I don't think I could have said it half as well. Very well said, and I agree 1000000000000000%

I would be hard pressed to find a time in any game where I felt as much as a part of a community as I did when I sat at the North Britain Forge and repaired weapons for people, bought ingots from the miners who braved the graveyard and northern woods to bring in ore for us to use, or just chatted with people as I crafted. I remember one time there being a big "political" rally held there complete with someone running for Mayor of Britain giving a speech about how if he was elected mayor he would see to it that the PK's would be driven from Despise and blackthorne's Chaos guards would be more respectable.

I don't think any of that would have happened if it wasn't for the fact that crafting made up the base of the economy in UO.

 

[Kaleb]

Ok, I see the points about runics, in relation to their worth for the crafter versus certain looted level weapons. The problem is, it's still a game reliant on items.

We can probably point at many reasons for the (my opinion) desmise of certain "core" crafting skills, or their importance. Imbuing is perhaps the most stand out for me, because it's pretty much been the final nail in the coffin. Runics and artifacts obviously didn't help either.

So, how about the following idea. No artifacts and no magical weapons (apart from "named" for posterity/decoration/rare purpose), which means that the original "core" crafter made weapons and armour, are the best there is?

Make the original crafters important community members again. Not everyone wants to run around killing creatures or other players, fun though that can be.

I simply believe that imbuing, has cast a very large shadow over a lot of other areas of the game personally. Runics were the shadow before that, along with artifacts. Simply put, for a game which is supposed to have prided itself on the heart and soul of its crafting system, a great many changes have come over the years, which have deminished certain skills and classes a great deal.

One thing has been brought in, tipped the balance, so they've made other changes in an attempt to compensate. Then the next expansion comes in, you have the same situation all over again. Most of this caused by the post AoS item dependancy.

Simplicity of crafting, focus on community supply and demand. Made by a player, sold by a player, to another player, which can then be repaired by a player. That is the heart, the soul and the depth of interaction, which I miss.

The game will be always be item dependent to some degree under any system. If every weapon was equal in terms of damage output then there would be no need to PvM, T-Hunt, SoS, steal, or pick a particular weapon skill. There has to be a varying scale on magic weapons but it also has to be able to allow the crafter an outlet to be able to sell his/her goods. its a fine line, and in concept for a short time(pub 16- AOS) runics helped fill that gap, under the AOS system it is flawed being properties are too random, Insurance, Dupes, do not break and can Last forever(pof).

 

[Babble]

While that would be an acceptable solution if a classic server were to have runic hammers I personally would hope they were not included into a classic ruleset server, though it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. Hell anything Pre-AOS would make me happy, even if it was a pub-15 shard with tram and everything else..

Since we're on the subject of crafting and runic hammers has there been any discussion of colored ores? While it was nice being able to craft a matching set of valorite heavy archer I also liked having to go to different vendors to try and build a matching set before the advent of colored ore.

A classic shard should not have runics - as interesting as bods are they should not yield armor/weapons as rewards, better some fluff.

And actually I thought that magic looot might be not repairable or have a lower durability, so they are rarer and crafters can sell their wares better.

As for coloured armor - it should be possible but chain valorite shlould give the same armor as chain iron.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I would prefer there were no BODs or Runics on the Classic Shard if for no other reason than to discourage scripters and dupers.

Also, I really hate some of the stupid neon colored reward cloth.

I also would prefer that there was one type of leather, and that the colors of ore were all the same for AR, the only difference being looks and rarity.

But none of those are deal breakers for me.

 

[Lord Frodo]

LOL
Runics, just what a classic shard needs.
Lets not forget CBDs and Powder of Fort. Those are BOD rewards also. And while we are at it lets not leave out the Bowchafters and the Carpenters with thier runics.

Do some of these people want a "Classic Shard" or a copy of all those free shards. What a joke!

 

[Kaleb]

LOL
Runics, just what a classic shard needs.
Lets not forget CBDs and Powder of Fort. Those are BOD rewards also. And while we are at it lets not leave out the Bowchafters and the Carpenters with thier runics.

Do some of these people want a "Classic Shard" or a copy of all those free shards. What a joke!

I would play a copy of the PRS I play, Its the most popular prs server and has been around for 6 years only to improve. It has bods runics but no item bless so its not so unbalanced, and no it does not have POF.

But w/o is not a deal breaker, no custom housing is though.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Let's get a consensus on Custom Housing shall we?

No long commentary, just post YES or NO.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

No.

 

[Evlar]

YES...

Sorry Morgana, but I do have to comment.

So long as the design options are limited to those that tie in with the lands of the era we're looking at

A visit to Europa to look at themed custom housing gives an example of players who've designed "in keeping" with surroundings and lore.

Custom design does allow creativity, which is always good. However, there's no accounting for certain player's taste

NO... if it's a deal-breaker for the majority of players. All I like is to have a little space for community gatherings, guild meetings, events, creative player designed interiors, role-play themes... you get the picture So as long as larger standard templates are available, such as castles, inns and such, then that's fine.

 

[Babble]

Yes, but a mob with pitchforks can make a housedesign to an empty plot again, or GMs are allowed to burn extra ugly houses down.
Maybe a use for ballotboxes. Shall we burn the house down yes/no?

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Yea we aren't extremists...

allow guilds to build custom houses, and also players who have attained a certain level of community fame.

Why not ?

If pks are attacking a certain guild over and over, trying to catch people who recall in front, they should be allowed to have archers and mages turetting.

There's a balance in everything...

 

[Kaleb]

YES:

Turret is illegal on EA shards, No to the crystal 9th aniv/neon walls.

 

[Trebr Drab]

I'd personally like to see some checks put in place to keep PKs from just overrunning the shard...but I think it would be better to start off only with things that were in the game at one point or another...then see where it went. If it looked like it was going to be problematic, then add more penalties.

So in the beginning...just use the Classic anti-PK mechanisms:

- Long and short term murder counts
- Reds can't use towns besides Buc's Den
- Reds are guard-whacked on sight
- Stat loss on rez
- NPCs won't deal with reds
- Reds can only rez at the Chaos shrine or by players
- Bounty system (fixed to prevent exploits)

If that wasn't enough, then tweak it to those, plus:

- Perma red for over a certain number of murders
- Stat loss on death

If that still wasn't enough:

- Add roving bands of tough casting NPCs that attack reds on sight.
- Jail time

I can't imagine it would need to go any further than that. Most players that wanted to PK others would be a lot more careful about who they killed as oppossed to killing every blue player they came across.

I commented on this, but no one replied to it. I'll give this one more shot.

If this "classic shard" starts out without stat loss on death, then it's the same system that failed before.

This will get only one shot.

Players everywhere know about PKing. Many won't go for this in the first place without a logical system to slow PKing way down. Many more will try it, find out that all the stories are true, and quickly leave.

One chance. That's all it gets. That beginning. It has to work, or open PvP will once again be looked at as it always has been since UO's early days.
One chance.
Fail that one chance, and the whole thing gets buried under the old stigma that it can never work. Gamers will close their eyes to it and not look back.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

I commented on this, but no one replied to it. I'll give this one more shot.

If this "classic shard" starts out without stat loss on death, then it's the same system that failed before.

This will get only one shot.

Players everywhere know about PKing. Many won't go for this in the first place without a logical system to slow PKing way down. Many more will try it, find out that all the stories are true, and quickly leave.

One chance. That's all it gets. That beginning. It has to work, or open PvP will once again be looked at as it always has been since UO's early days.
One chance.
Fail that one chance, and the whole thing gets buried under the old stigma that it can never work. Gamers will close their eyes to it and not look back.

You are absolutely right about there only being one shot.

I also have to say no to Custom Housing, there are more eyesores than beautiful custom houses.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

I also vote no to custom housing.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I commented on this, but no one replied to it. I'll give this one more shot.

If this "classic shard" starts out without stat loss on death, then it's the same system that failed before.

This will get only one shot.

Players everywhere know about PKing. Many won't go for this in the first place without a logical system to slow PKing way down. Many more will try it, find out that all the stories are true, and quickly leave.

One chance. That's all it gets. That beginning. It has to work, or open PvP will once again be looked at as it always has been since UO's early days.
One chance.
Fail that one chance, and the whole thing gets buried under the old stigma that it can never work. Gamers will close their eyes to it and not look back.

I am torn on this one.

I wonder if the PK community can act like adults, but I think it is unlikely. As Mark_Mythic pointed out in another thread, people delight in ruining the experience of others. It is unfortunately human nature. Some people live to destroy the experience of LIFE of those around them.

I have long thought that Trammel was not the only solution...but after reading the responses in this thread, which one can only hold as representative of the whole, I wonder if I was wrong.

I hate what Trammel did to the world I loved...to my core. But perhaps some people are too short sighted and immature to ever truly understand the lessons that history offers them.

It pains me to say it, but some part of me has to ponder the question...were the devs right back then? Did they see that nothing at all would ever stop those that sought only to destroy the experience of those around them? I mean, these are the same people that talk loudly during movies, fart in elevators, and crawl under the sneeze guard at buffets.

Social graces fail some people. And the obvious is lost upon them.

My faith in humanity is at an all time low today...and I won't get into why, but it has shaken me to my core, and I find myself doubting this idea...because I find myself doubting mankind as a whole.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

*tugs on shirt*

Ahua.

It wouldn't be fun to **** them off if they weren't genuine. The pleasure in making their life hard is multiplied by thousandfold, and this time they don't got no out of proportion hacks at their command.

Of course I think about 146 essential changes are to be made within one month to prevent some non realistic character progression, and 405 major changes be considered for implementation after a few months when the first players start to reach GM level skills. I count about 3400 minor adjustements I'd also make in the object tables, and also some creative item customization.

But that'd be crazy... what we're yall thinking reading this ?

Anyone serious put me to the test of listing them all under 12 hours ? I am only asking for my companionship back.

 

[Unsatisfied]

Sorry I havnt been around for the discussion over the last couple of pages (If anyone really cares) I've been keeping up with the reading but havnt really had the time to reply so just a quick on on a few points over what I've seen and my opinion/vote on each.

Ruinics - No. Its one step closer to item based pvp. They didnt bother me that much for the period between introduction and AoS but tbh its not something I want in a classic shard.

PK Stat loss on death vs on res - I dont really understand why people are voting towards pk stat loss on death... I thought the whole point to the penalties on pks was to deter rampart pking, stopping people from targetting 100 newbs on a daily basis.

If someone makes a pk that goes out and kills the ammount of people on a massive scale that everyones so concerned with they are eventually going to die... If they have indeed killed 100 newbs the ammount of time that you would have to spend macroing that if is simply recidulous and would 90% of the time end in the person either throwing the character away, or resing and taking the stat loss...

If you implement stat loss on death all your doing is hurting the people who kill a cpl of people for good reasons... Or people who just go after the big kills etc... Those people if there was stat loss on res could then work off their few counts and then res and get on with their game, these are not the pks were trying to severely punnish but if there is stat loss on death then they are being severely punished for merely playing the "pk" role.

Lastly just my vote on custom housing, is a no at least for the introduction... I loved it when custom housing was implemented on EA I was so overly excited for it, but its not my idea of classic and ontop of that I have seen what having classic houses on a fel only shard brings (not hating on fel only... Only way to go imo) but you just end up with box house after box house with a 1 tile entrence blocked off by a trash barrel for easy escape. Eye sores left right and centre taking away from the classic feel. But on that note its not a deal breaker either way for me.

But my most important point here really is Stat loss on death punnishes the wrong pker It doesnt matter if theres stat loss on death or on res... Any BIG time pker who has pked a rediculous ammount of people be it newbs or real people is going to be a throw away. Stat loss on death punnishes the person who is really using the game mechanics the way it should be used. Pking in moderation, for the right reasons etc...

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

I've been thinking about the one shot this server will have and how much of a role PK's will play in determining the future of such a server. I'm not sure that the current "disincentives" that we have thought up for dealing with reds is enough. They weren't enough back in the day and they won't be enough today. The only real disincentive that I can think of is making being a murderer so hard to play that only those who are truly dedicated to the PvP lifestyle will accept it and the griefers will tire of it quickly and leave.

This is my suggestion. If you are red, after 5 murder counts, you can no longer have any beneficial action done to you. A blue can't heal you, a red can't rez you. You can't use any npc vendors or banks outside of Buc's. If you die you have to go to the chaos shrine to be rezzed and you receive a skill and stat loss that scales with how many counts you have. No more short and long term counts, just long term counts. Counts will fall off at the rate of 1 count every 24 hours of played time.

I also like the idea of red hunting mobs which are very powerful, which should be spawned at pvp hot spots like the crossroads, orc valley, dungeons etc...

By making it a real challenge to play a red we will see a massive drop off of the rampant PKing we saw before trammel. The only other problem I can see is people exploiting the rep system to cause a person they want to kill to flag gray so they can PK without a murder count. I can't really think of a way to stop that other than blues willing to take counts to kill the dipwads that do that.

EDIT: By no beneficial action I do not mean they red can't heal himself, only that no one regardless of rep can help them, weather it's by healing them or trading with them.

 

[Unsatisfied]

By making it a real challenge to play a red we will see a massive drop off of the rampant PKing we saw before trammel.

So by the sounds of your post you played pre tram days but post stat loss days. When pking was rampart because there were pretty much no penalties for reds other than being able to be attacked anywhere with no repecussions... How is it not a challenge to play a red when as soon as you die once, be it to a good pvper or a massive gank squad of blues that hunt reds, you suffer stat loss if you try to res? Where is the lack of challenge in this?

 

[dum3886]

I've been thinking about the one shot this server will have and how much of a role PK's will play in determining the future of such a server. I'm not sure that the current "disincentives" that we have thought up for dealing with reds is enough. They weren't enough back in the day and they won't be enough today. The only real disincentive that I can think of is making being a murderer so hard to play that only those who are truly dedicated to the PvP lifestyle will accept it and the griefers will tire of it quickly and leave.

This is my suggestion. If you are red, after 5 murder counts, you can no longer have any beneficial action done to you. A blue can't heal you, a red can't rez you. You can't use any npc vendors or banks outside of Buc's. If you die you have to go to the chaos shrine to be rezzed and you receive a skill and stat loss that scales with how many counts you have. No more short and long term counts, just long term counts. Counts will fall off at the rate of 1 count every 24 hours of played time.

I also like the idea of red hunting mobs which are very powerful, which should be spawned at pvp hot spots like the crossroads, orc valley, dungeons etc...

By making it a real challenge to play a red we will see a massive drop off of the rampant PKing we saw before trammel. The only other problem I can see is people exploiting the rep system to cause a person they want to kill to flag gray so they can PK without a murder count. I can't really think of a way to stop that other than blues willing to take counts to kill the dipwads that do that.

EDIT: By no beneficial action I do not mean they red can't heal himself, only that no one regardless of rep can help them, weather it's by healing them or trading with them.

Awesome Idea... so when u die in a location where u cant get to the chaos shrine.. u delete the character yeah? smarrrrtttttt...

Also... im sure lots of people will return when u have to walk for 5 hrs just to res... again... smarrrrrtttttt.....

Why not have it like this.. if u r red... ur bank account disappears, u can't ride a mount, u can't be ressed unless u somehow find a congregation of 15 red healers in one screen and that whenever u attack someone who is blue 10 balrogs spawn right next to u and r aggressive to only u... + the balrogs will be on ridable llamas. (remember u can't ride a mount)...

gzzz... some people just write and dun think...

 

[Evlar]

Regarding eyesore house designs, I think some of that comes from lack of effort or thought. On some of the shards I've played, the eyesores are more of a minority, but I suppose what you all see depends on the shards you've played.

I quite like the idea that only guild houses can be customised, along with none of the crystal crap or anniversary abortions that were allowed.

That said, this isn't The SIMS Online is it... look where that ended up!

 

[Longest Journey]

Its the other way around, an exceptional weapon is = to might, magic weaps eventually caused the demise of exceptional weapons. before runics, it got to the point to where if it were not power or better people wouldn't bother.

I call BS on this part right here.

My GM smith made a healthy income with my GM exceptional weapons and armor for a VERY long time. I didnt start to see a massive decline in sales until runics were implimented. After that it was "What? No GM val vanqs?" or "Wheres the runics?".

Second of all, magic weapons werent easy as pie to come by. Might weapons only had a 8% drop rate across the board. They dropped off of liches, trolls, ogres, and other mid to high range monsters, SoSs, and treasure maps, but at a low rate. The only magic weapons that did flood the game were ruin. And more often than not, you'd see those dumped on the ground around the bank.

Thirdly, Might weapons only offered a +2 to damage where a GM exceptional offered +3, equal to a force weapon. Power and Vanq were the two highest and those only had a 2% and 1% drop rate off of high end monsters, SoSs, and treasure maps.

So, no, thats not how it was. The only reason a person would buy a might weapon is if it was silver or had a magical charge to it. They never replaced GM made exceptionals.

Thus runics were added, it allowed the crafter to make weapons that were useful, there were no major dupes so the high end hammers were truly rare, that allowed PVM to remain viable. Eventually though people got verite and val hammers, and a lot of PvPers used their Item bless deed's on the weapons made from them causing an unbalance due to the players not loosing their weapons. but when players do loose them they float around the economy till they wear out, under the old system items had a chance to break on repair if too worn.

No, there werent dupes, there were just bot scripters sitting in the smith shops all day spamming bods and hoarding the hammers.

Runics were added with the BoDs as a means to keep people playing. After EQ and its clone army and OSI/EA wanted in on the hype, they had to resort to rat race gaming to keep people playing. Adding in the Runics was the chesse on the end of the stick to keep the rats running on the wheel.

One of the servers I play has runics with the T2A ruleset no insurance, no item bless, and wear out just a tad faster than standard loot, People still buy looted weapons from PvMers and weapon vendors are everywhere. They stick to the same fourmula that OSI had which is that exceptional only adds +3 to damage, say making a force runic kryss its just a couple ticks less damage than a loot power weapon. crafted val weaps are the most powerful but the rarity of val BOD's and lack of dupes keep the flood gates closed on those weapons and those that do have them are less likely to use them based on the risk of loosing it being its value is too much for many. bronze-aggy seem to be the most made and sold.

And you also forgot to mention how no one buys regular GM made armor because everything is runic dependent. Why would anyone buy a standard issue suit and weapons when everyone else is using runic gear?

It doesnt matter that the weapons wear out, what matters is that runics become the industry standard. You could make the val hammers as rare as the loch ness monster, but as long as there are other runic crafting tools available, those will become the norm. Its all players are going to want. GMs who cant get their hands on runic tools are screwed, while those who have them in abundance will monpolize the trade.

Its another step towards making the game item dependent.

Now don't get me wrong here I'm not saying a classic shard needs runics, but when they were released at the time crafters were down to doing mostly repairs, there was simply too much magic items in the system causing a drop in demand for your standard exceptional gear mostly weapons, exceptional armor still sold ok, and when first put into game it gave crafters some market share again. The Bod/runic system was a pretty solid system pre aos unfortunately AOS, Item bless deeds, Scripter's/dupers ruined the system and gave it a bad name.

There were not too many magic items floating around, especially not in The Second Age. Runics killed the economy by flooding everything with over priced monopolized magic weapons and it made regular GM crafted gear obsolete.

Runics have no place in a classic server. If you love how your free shard works, then by all means, go play it. Stop trying to make our classic servers into copies of your free one.

Runics make the game item dependent and that is something those of us who genuinely want classic servers do not want to see happen.

Thus, I reiterate my stance. NO RUNICS.

 

[Llewen]

If this "classic shard" starts out without stat loss on death, then it's the same system that failed before.

This will get only one shot.

One chance. That's all it gets. That beginning. It has to work, or open PvP will once again be looked at as it always has been since UO's early days.
One chance.
Fail that one chance, and the whole thing gets buried under the old stigma that it can never work. Gamers will close their eyes to it and not look back.

I don't think it is quite that dramatic. There are three types of players as I see it who will try out a classic shard at the beginning:

- Siege Perilous and Mugen players.
- Old school UO players that left in disgust after Trammel was introduced and have been knocking around other games or free shards ever since then hoping to recapture the magic.
- The curious.

Most of the curious are going to leave after a short time no matter what is done. Any "classic" shard will be a wide open pvp, full loot environment, regardless of the specifics, and that is a pretty harsh game environment for an MMO. Most of the rubber neckers simply won't enjoy that experience, or will lose interest quickly the way most of that kind of client do with anything.

As for the rest? The Siege Perilous/Mugen crowd will stay regardless, in my opinion. They've suffered through years of a Siege Perilous rules set that is clumsy at best and in some aspects almost completely broken. If they didn't leave under those conditions, they aren't going to leave a classic shard quickly either.

As for the returning old school UO crowd? Who knows? My guess is that no matter what you do a significant percentage of them won't find the old magic and will still pine for the old days, and a certain percentage will stay, but I don't think something like stat loss for reds is going to be the deciding factor.

PK'ing is going to be a given, no matter what you do. That is just the nature of wide open pvp, full loot MMO's. The difference between now and the old days is that the sheep have other options, and they will leave. The ones that stay will understand what they signed up for, and it won't be like the old days where EA was simply getting flooded with pages and emails related to rampant pk'ing.

One thing that you can take to the bank though is that a classic shard format will never replace the regular shards, or even be as popular. Some in this thread seem to be under that illusion. It isn't going to happen. A classic shard, or even more than one classic shard, might do very well, even in the long term, and the individual shards might even have healthier population levels than most of the regular shards, but those population levels will still never represent more than a fraction of the total client base for UO.

And most of the real sociopaths probably won't make a classic shard their permanent home either. They may check it out in the beginning, but there is very little chance they will stay long term. That kind of player gets off on making sheep miserable, and not many of the sheep are going to stay long term in that kind of environment. The sociopaths will get bored and move on, and probably pretty quickly. Again, this isn't like the old days when UO was the only show in town, or even one of the only two shows in town.

 

[Longest Journey]

I am torn on this one.

I wonder if the PK community can act like adults, but I think it is unlikely. As Mark_Mythic pointed out in another thread, people delight in ruining the experience of others. It is unfortunately human nature. Some people live to destroy the experience of LIFE of those around them.

First of all, not EVERYONE delights in being an ass. There are people who like helping others, and then you also have those who just dont care what other people do and remain completely neutral, minding their own business and being a complete non-factor in the equasion of another person's experience....personally I fall under the latter.

I have long thought that Trammel was not the only solution...but after reading the responses in this thread, which one can only hold as representative of the whole, I wonder if I was wrong.

No, you werent wrong. Trammel was never necessary. It wasnt made due to PKing, it was all in part to EQ and EA/OSI wanting to be like EQ and get tons more subs from the kid friendly mainstream game hype. Thats all it was.

If the developers back then were actually interested in PK regulations, they would have put statloss back in, not completely change the core of the game by completely eliminating PvP with trammel.

Stat loss worked. The only reason it got taken out was because the reds she-dogged about it. Then the non PvP's she-dogged about the reds and we got trammel.

So, if stat loss worked, and it made people actually THINK and CONSIDER the repercussions of taking that first step down the path of bloodshed and knocked them out of comission for a while when they were killed, why didnt the developers just put it back in? Answer: There was another reason they made trammel.

I hate what Trammel did to the world I loved...to my core. But perhaps some people are too short sighted and immature to ever truly understand the lessons that history offers them.

Well, you have to take into account other factors, one of them being, maybe it wasnt the PKs who were being immature. Remember, PKing was, from the start, a part of the game. People were just playing the way they wanted to play and the way the game allowed them to. How is it the fault of the red if the person they killed erupted into a sea of tears and whining because that person took getting PK'd personally?

It wasnt always about griefing. A lot of PK's were as such because, well, thats how they wanted to play. They wanted to be the bad guy. The problem is a lot of people who were PK'd couldnt handle it. They got spiteful over something that was easy to recover from. So they started saying those people were PKing just to personally hurt them, personally cause them grief. This, in most cases, was not true.

Yeah, its easy to pain reds as these immature, psichotic, anti-social rejects who live in their parent's basement at age 34 and are complete losers who take their frustrations out on the world through the game, but the majority of the time, this was no where near the case. They were murderers, the criminal element, the evil side of a game that's core story line is based on the struggle between good and evil, moral and immoral. There are two sides to every story. Just believeing the blue guy is unfair to the other party.

Example scenario:

A guy shoots and kills another guy.

Now, automatically, people are going to sympathize with the guy who got shot and condemn the shooter, painting him as some monster.

Heres the problem with that..... why did the shooter do it? What are the facts? Was the shooter protecting himself? Was the guy who got shot a threat to the shooter? Was the guy who got shot a threat to the shooter's home or family?

This is how it was back in old UO. People who got PK'd automatically, and rather immaturely, assumed that it was done because of some sinister personal motivation, IE griefing. And that right there, my friends, is what caused the downfall. People didnt learn to take things in stride and remember, its just a game.

It pains me to say it, but some part of me has to ponder the question...were the devs right back then? Did they see that nothing at all would ever stop those that sought only to destroy the experience of those around them? I mean, these are the same people that talk loudly during movies, fart in elevators, and crawl under the sneeze guard at buffets.

No, they FAAAAAR from right, past wrong and into some dimension of epic wrongness that perverted the morals of all who gazed upon such wrongness. They had the means to balance the PvP, but it didnt coincide with the current gaming hype caused by EQ. And when EA smells money, they'll do anything to get it....even completely ruin a game that was doing quite well and making them a good profit.

As for people who fart in elevators....ummm....thats a natrually bodily function. See, again, accusing without the facts. Maybe that person couldnt hold it? Maybe they have some sort of health condition? You just dont know. You cant condemn someone for it.

People who talk loudly during a movie, theres ways of stopping them and rules in place. Get an usher to throw them out, or tell them to shut the hell up and get other people to chime in with you.

The sneeze guard thing.....well, come on, youve got to figure, its food left out in the open. People breathing on it are the least of your worries. I mean, theres flies who can land on it, roaches that could have gotten to it, dirt from the outside could have been blown in with a gust of wind, the ventilation system could be belting down tons of dust on it. There are literally THOUSANDS of other scenarios to worry about other than someone breathing on it.....thats why I dont eat at buffets.

Social graces fail some people. And the obvious is lost upon them.

Social graces are one thing, but holding people to them is unrealistic when you stop to consider even a fraction of the different reasons things happen and people do things. Not everything is as it appears to be.

My faith in humanity is at an all time low today...and I won't get into why, but it has shaken me to my core, and I find myself doubting this idea...because I find myself doubting mankind as a whole.

......well someone's philosophical drive is on overload.

It all boils down to this......its a game. Thats all it is. A game. Dont go letting your whole moral and ethical senses go all haywire over it. People wont act the way they act in games in real life, because real life is real life. Death is death. It hurts when someone runs you through with a sword. And if you act like an ass, someone is going to break your jaw.......or sue you. You want to regulate things in a game, add in something thats gonna hurt. But it has to be done in moderation. Just like how in real life if someone breaks someone else's window, they get sued as opposed to executed.

Stat loss hurt, but not so much that the player lost interest in the game. It was moderated, balanced. Trammel was like executing someone for breaking a window. Yeah, some reds bitched about the stat loss, but the majority at large shrugged it off and worked the character back up. It was during this time they were re-working the character or waiting off their counts as a ghost that they were knocked out of the PvP circut. And thats what mattered. That was their punishment: Either rez and have to spend days getting their skills and stats back up, or be stuck as a ghost for days, unable to do anything with the character other than stand there, and wait off the counts.

You know what caused Trammel? Laziness, greed and the developers not sticking to their guns. They had the game right back then, it worked and it worked very well.

So, dont let people with all of their mumbo jumbo rattle your cage. All it takes is creativity and cleverness and using what was proven to work without killing the game, and PKing can be balanced out.

With that said, Ill close with this:

STAT LOSS FTW!

 

[Longest Journey]

I don't think it is quite that dramatic. There are three types of players as I see it who will try out a classic shard at the beginning:

- Siege Perilous and Mugen players.
- Old school UO players that left in disgust after Trammel was introduced and have been knocking around other games or free shards ever since then hoping to recapture the magic.
- The curious.

Most of the curious are going to leave after a short time no matter what is done. Any "classic" shard will be a wide open pvp, full loot environment, regardless of the specifics, and that is a pretty harsh game environment for an MMO. Most of the rubber neckers simply won't enjoy that experience, or will lose interest quickly the way most of that kind of client do with anything.

And you speak for all of the curious? No, its more like, some will stay and some will go, not all will go.

As for the rest? The Siege Perilous/Mugen crowd will stay regardless, in my opinion. They've suffered through years of a Siege Perilous rules set that is clumsy at best and in some aspects almost completely broken. If they didn't leave under those conditions, they aren't going to leave a classic shard quickly either.

Unless you factor in those on seige and mungen who like the post AOS changes and will stay. So, no, not all of them will leave their arti dominance over the arti-less.

As for the returning old school UO crowd? Who knows? My guess is that no matter what you do a significant percentage of them won't find the old magic and will still pine for the old days, and a certain percentage will stay, but I don't think something like stat loss for reds is going to be the deciding factor.

2 things wrong with this statement:

#1.) The majority at large of old UO players will agree that the era they miss the most was T2A. Currently, T2A has the vast majority of support of people who want for classic servers and post on here. For evidence, I refer you to the link below.

http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=185375

#2.) Stat loss was one of the best balancers to Pking. It made players actually consider if becoming a red was worth it or not. It will be a deciding factor as it will make the classic servers more appealing.

PK'ing is going to be a given, no matter what you do. That is just the nature of wide open pvp, full loot MMO's. The difference between now and the old days is that the sheep have other options, and they will leave. The ones that stay will understand what they signed up for, and it won't be like the old days where EA was simply getting flooded with pages and emails related to rampant pk'ing.

There it is again.....that crap about sheep. Seriously, what do you think people did back then? Just stood there like wooly quadrapeds and LET themselves be killed?

...no...

You see, people actually fought back. There were no sheep. There were a select few whiners who constantly paged the GMs demanding they ban a red who killed them and took their stuff. And all of those pages and emails, they came from the same people over and over. The majority of players, they didnt care, or at least didnt take it personally like the whiners did.

One thing that you can take to the bank though is that a classic shard format will never replace the regular shards, or even be as popular. Some in this thread seem to be under that illusion. It isn't going to happen. A classic shard, or even more than one classic shard, might do very well, even in the long term, and the individual shards might even have healthier population levels than most of the regular shards, but those population levels will still never represent more than a fraction of the total client base for UO.

And most of the real sociopaths probably won't make a classic shard their permanent home either. They may check it out in the beginning, but there is very little chance they will stay long term. That kind of player gets off on making sheep miserable, and not many of the sheep are going to stay long term in that kind of environment. The sociopaths will get bored and move on, and probably pretty quickly. Again, this isn't like the old days when UO was the only show in town, or even one of the only two shows in town.

Im not even going to bother disecting the rest of your post. Fact that you have been one of the more vocal opponents to a classic server means you'll cook up anything you can to try and undermine them.

I mean, if you werent worried about them, then why even post at all? You say they'll never beat the AOS servers in popularity, but if you truly believed that, then why even say it and push it so much? And if they were so popular, then how come everyone isnt playing them? How come people calling for classic servers at all if UO is so good the way it is now?

The old UOers have been to the other shows, and they are sick of them. Seriously, go on those other games, start up a converstion about old UO in the general and trade chats. You'll be amazed at how many people miss old UO.

This weekend I tried out Fallen Earth. I said in the chat "open skills, haven seen that since UO". Half the zone chimed in, all talking about old UO. I mentioned EA was considering putting in classic servers. Some doubted it, some laughed, but they all agreed on one thing, if they put them in, they'd all come back.

Also, knock the sheep insults off. That is the worst personal attack against players back then, and a massive slap to the face. Show some respect to your veterans, because without us, UO wouldnt have survived its first 6 months. Its bad enough the developers betrayed their loyal followers and made UO into what it is today, but to have a trammie like you call us sheep? Thats unforgiveable.

I was a non-red, true blue Glorious Lord all the way back then.....and I was NO.... ONE'S.... SHEEP. If a PK took me down, its because they won the hardest fight of their career as a red. And the same went for the majority of other players back then. Granted they all were Glorious Lord, but they all fought or otherwise escaped. The immature people who couldnt handle the PvP, they were the ones who caused the most trouble. Didnt see the people who could handle it getting the game completely changed to suit their personal needs, now did you? The reason trammel wasnt fought on the forums or the IRC, because people rarely bothered with the forums back then, they were too busy playing the game.

Now adays, the forums are all there is to do.

So, do yourself, and the rest of us a favor, and please stop posting in this thread. All you're doing is annoying people with your post AOS propaganda and trammie phantom tales. No one wants to hear it. People have been begging for classic servers for years, yet quitting with each post AOS expansion.

The proof is all there.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

So by the sounds of your post you played pre tram days but post stat loss days. When pking was rampart because there were pretty much no penalties for reds other than being able to be attacked anywhere with no repecussions... How is it not a challenge to play a red when as soon as you die once, be it to a good pvper or a massive gank squad of blues that hunt reds, you suffer stat loss if you try to res? Where is the lack of challenge in this?

Actually I started playing in April of 98, just a couple months before the rep system came in and we had the Notoriety system. After the introduction of Reds and Perma-red my main character was red primarily because I would take counts by killing the dipwads who would abuse the rep system to get out of a murder count. I died several times, and have never thought stat loss to be that bad a penalty. A couple days of sparring with my guild-mates or casting spells around the house and I was back on track with my stats.
Yeah it could be a pain sometimes but with the ability to lock skills and stats it was easy as pie to see-saw the stats up. That is why stat loss was never a very big disincentive to most. Stat loss didn't even drive off the wannabe gankers.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Longest Journey, you might be right about working off counts. But I have a problem with it, I'll get to in a moment.

First, we have to understand that people, in their minds, think that UO's stat loss system like that didn't work. And it didn't, but not because of that. The reason it didn't work was because blues could freely heal reds without turning gray, giving reds running with blue friends a huge advantage in PK runs or any other time. They simply ran with blue guildmates and friends.
There was also the problem of PKers stealing first, to get other players to attack them, which allowed them to kill the other player without consequence. If thse two things are fixed, I think the balance would shift from unacceptable to acceptable.

However, here's my problem with it. Trying to convince other players. I'm not talking about those players who tell you they'd be back. That's a few thousand.

UO needs this thing......no, not just UO, but all of gaming and MMO worlds, need this thing to work. We need massive numbers. And can get that if this is done right. Right to attract players of all sorts and kinds. "Carebears" included, although I'm not talking about the extreme player types who want nothing more than scripted wins and heroic titles handed to them for running through the scripts. All the casuals, all the easy going, but people who want that "different" experience. Want something new. Want a "world" to play around in.

We can get this massive mix of players, all playing in a world, if this is done right and satisfies "victims" that their antagonists will pay the price for it. This is a critical part of it all.

(And I will say this once again, I think UO can be the number 2 game behind WoW, of these types of MMOs, not including the FTPs with item shops and facebook games of over simplification that churn through number of trials and runs on a course for quick disappearance from the radar screen.)


But we somehow have to have that extra something, and this I am very sure of.
I sort of like Renyards idea of making playing a red more difficult. This might be the answer to what I'm saying. But I don't like it as stated for the same reason I don't like switches and Trammel and the like. It feels artificial. I'm wondering though, what if Reds with large murder counts can be "cursed" by player characters who've earned some title from the Virtue of Justice, and have a magical power to do so. Something that goes beyond the regular stat loss on res idea. Maybe this makes them perma red, with a minimum stat loss on every res.

I'm really curious what you all think of this. It needs work, obviously.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Actually I started playing in April of 98, just a couple months before the rep system came in and we had the Notoriety system. After the introduction of Reds and Perma-red my main character was red primarily because I would take counts by killing the dipwads who would abuse the rep system to get out of a murder count. I died several times, and have never thought stat loss to be that bad a penalty. A couple days of sparring with my guild-mates or casting spells around the house and I was back on track with my stats.
Yeah it could be a pain sometimes but with the ability to lock skills and stats it was easy as pie to see-saw the stats up. That is why stat loss was never a very big disincentive to most. Stat loss didn't even drive off the wannabe gankers.

Oh really? I always wondered, I was never a red.
Stat loss needs to hurt.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

Awesome Idea... so when u die in a location where u cant get to the chaos shrine.. u delete the character yeah? smarrrrtttttt...

I actually didn't think about getting caught on an island. You've got a point there. I'm so used to the current crop of MMO's where dying doesn't have any significance because there is really no place that isn't inaccessible while you're dead.....but that also doesn't stop someone who died from IMing a friend and having them open a gate, I don't think gates would be considered a beneficial action...but yeah there would have to be some sort of way to get them back to the mainland.

Also... im sure lots of people will return when u have to walk for 5 hrs just to res... again... smarrrrrtttttt.....

There is nowhere in Britannia that will take you five hours to get to the chaos shrine.

Why not have it like this.. if u r red... ur bank account disappears, u can't ride a mount, u can't be ressed unless u somehow find a congregation of 15 red healers in one screen and that whenever u attack someone who is blue 10 balrogs spawn right next to u and r aggressive to only u... + the balrogs will be on ridable llamas. (remember u can't ride a mount)...

gzzz... some people just write and dun think...

So you want easy mode kill anyone you want and no consequence? That is what we're trying to avoid since it would kill a classic server. My idea was just that, an idea. I think it would be rough enough to keep the mindless gankers population down, while giving the true pvper or RP murderer a challenge.

 

[Unsatisfied]

Actually I started playing in April of 98, just a couple months before the rep system came in and we had the Notoriety system. After the introduction of Reds and Perma-red my main character was red primarily because I would take counts by killing the dipwads who would abuse the rep system to get out of a murder count. I died several times, and have never thought stat loss to be that bad a penalty. A couple days of sparring with my guild-mates or casting spells around the house and I was back on track with my stats.
Yeah it could be a pain sometimes but with the ability to lock skills and stats it was easy as pie to see-saw the stats up. That is why stat loss was never a very big disincentive to most. Stat loss didn't even drive off the wannabe gankers.

This comment has pretty much proven you didn't really play back in t2a when stat loss existed.
1. You would lose both skills and stats, and skills especially skills like resist were extremely hard to get back, you wouldnt get back to gm magery/resist etc by simply casting a few spells around the house...
2. You couldn't lock your skills or stats until UO:R came out and this was a long time after the death of stat loss.

So thanks for clarifying it for us

Oh really? I always wondered, I was never a red.
Stat loss needs to hurt.

Please listen to the people who arnt telling tales. Stat loss hurt.

 

[Unsatisfied]

. The reason it didn't work was because blues could freely heal reds without turning gray, giving reds running with blue friends a huge advantage in PK runs or any other time. They simply ran with blue guildmates and friends.

This is one thing I agree never should have existed, although it was eventually corrected and blues would turn grey if they healed a red. I think when they first started letting reds into towns blues would even get guard wacked for healing a red... But anyway no reds in town please.

 

[Kaleb]

I call BS on this part right here.

My GM smith made a healthy income with my GM exceptional weapons and armor for a VERY long time. I didnt start to see a massive decline in sales until runics were implimented. After that it was "What? No GM val vanqs?" or "Wheres the runics?".

? Makes no sense, Crafters were still making them, and finally able to compete with Magic armor? Wheres your logic behind this? on pacific and siege it was a whole different matter. I guess you forget the bugs that were created that pretty much gave force - Vanq weapons at a massive level through loot drops/ tmap loot/ SOS's prior to runics. Plus I never said runics were Solid, The concept was solid, but was flawed only due to a couple things: Item bless deeds, Scripters, Durability, Trammel. It was designed for the combat systems prior to AOS, only after AOS was a person dependent on Runic armor, Barbed runic leather was the best armor in game.

I call BS right there, during UOR pre runics
Second of all, magic weapons werent easy as pie to come by. Might weapons only had a 8% drop rate across the board. They dropped off of liches, trolls, ogres, and other mid to high range monsters, SoSs, and treasure maps, but at a low rate. The only magic weapons that did flood the game were ruin. And more often than not, you'd see those dumped on the ground around the bank.

I have to call BS myself, MY tower was stocked with 100's of throw away Power- Vanq weaps. 100's of throw away pieces of hardening- invulnerable armor.

Thirdly, Might weapons only offered a +2 to damage where a GM exceptional offered +3, equal to a force weapon. Power and Vanq were the two highest and those only had a 2% and 1% drop rate off of high end monsters, SoSs, and treasure maps.

So, no, thats not how it was. The only reason a person would buy a might weapon is if it was silver or had a magical charge to it. They never replaced GM made exceptionals.

Yes they were equal to a point, but only if you compare gm-just a might sword, any tactics bump made the might sword better. Runics made GM items better, A runic GM/Exceptional Might weapon will be better than a loot Force weapon but not better than a loot power weap, see chart above /\,

No, there werent dupes, there were just bot scripters sitting in the smith shops all day spamming bods and hoarding the hammers.

Dupes were around, just a bit more quiet than today, It was harder claiming a bod than it is today but I agree scripting helped ruin it.

Runics were added with the BoDs as a means to keep people playing. After EQ and its clone army and OSI/EA wanted in on the hype, they had to resort to rat race gaming to keep people playing. Adding in the Runics was the chesse on the end of the stick to keep the rats running on the wheel.

BoD's were added due to Crafters flooding the fourms for something that made them more viable and able to compete with loot drops.

And you also forgot to mention how no one buys regular GM made armor because everything is runic dependent. Why would anyone buy a standard issue suit and weapons when everyone else is using runic gear?

Runic gear was not a requirement until after AOS, Besides its still GM crafted gear, Sombodys smith made that Runic Might weapon.

It doesnt matter that the weapons wear out, what matters is that runics become the industry standard. You could make the val hammers as rare as the loch ness monster, but as long as there are other runic crafting tools available, those will become the norm. Its all players are going to want. GMs who cant get their hands on runic tools are screwed, while those who have them in abundance will monpolize the trade.

I had no issues getting hammers and I only ran a couple crafters, The BOD trade was a fun experience, the great feeling of accomplishment when you found that last BOD for an aggy hammer on a vendor or at the bank through a player.

Its another step towards making the game item dependent.

LOL UO has always been item dependent, why not just make the game not have armor, only a sword, a bow exc. exc nothing that gives AR, or improves weapon damage. Standard GM gear will be no better than loot drops.

There were not too many magic items floating around, especially not in The Second Age. Runics killed the economy by flooding everything with over priced monopolized magic weapons and it made regular GM crafted gear obsolete.

Again its still GM crafted gear, that for the first time crafters were able to compete with Loot drops, but at the same time keeping loot drops viable.

Runics have no place in a classic server. If you love how your free shard works, then by all means, go play it. Stop trying to make our classic servers into copies of your free one.

There is no classic server how can you say our? Well the PRS i play is the most popular with its player numbers out performing the standard t2a clone servers out there, Past devs have played there Being that the prs I play was the first to offer Ethy polarbears, Hyrus, plus many other ideas I have seen in current UO. If they copied the PRS i play took out Texas holdem poker, and put back the penalties for murder It would be the perfect shard.

Runics make the game item dependent and that is something those of us who genuinely want classic servers do not want to see happen.

Broken record ALERT! See above the last 2-3x

Thus, I reiterate my stance. NO RUNICS.

Like you Im going into broken record mode.

It was based off my observations on the Pacific and Siege shards prior to AOS, Never are they going to be able to go back to a time, Never will they have the success you think will happen with a shard from back in 98-99, Never has your reading comprehension been so bad. I Stated NO RUNICS are needed but someday may need to be. I was simply explaining why they were put in. To most except for the 5 of you, see UO CLASSIC as the systems (item, skills, combat) that we had prior to AOS.,

It makes me sad that some here are closed minded and want the game to be fun to you but not anyone else. Games change, They have to, if they dont then players will get bored or frustrated and leave, thus no matter the game its going to get more content, balance passes, regardless what a small portion feels about it, They cant let 5 make up the minds of thousands.

Things become unbalanced and they have to go in and fix it, meaning the very first bugfix/balance pass makes the game different, every past patch/ publish can be considered classic UO. towards the end of UO:R prior to Powerscrolls Combat was the most balanced it has ever been. Remember one hits, and Precasting were taken out for a reason, trammel was added for a reason(the way it was added remains debatable Thats why Im for a classic version (pre AOS) not only with The t2a-ren fel combat/item/skill rulesets, but the same separate shard/s with the trammel ruleset). runics were added for a reason, explained above.

again I never said they needed to be on the EA "classic" server, i just explained what had to happen to save crafting after years of farming, and explained how I play with that system under a T2a ruleset to this day with no item bless and how well it works with a t2a ruleset, Btw BOD's are so popular on the PRS I play that the staff hold BOD fairs where they set up vendors for players in Delucia so players can buy/sell/trade their bods to other players. There is a huge difference between runics being on a T2A shard with no item bless, scripters, trammel then there was when they were launched on EA with those 3 things.

Again Im not saying they should be in, I am just explaining my current view on them from experience on both sides of the fence. And how I feel they were at the time a great addition to the game in concept under a Pre AOS system.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

This comment has pretty much proven you didn't really play back in t2a when stat loss existed.
1. You would lose both skills and stats, and skills especially skills like resist were extremely hard to get back, you wouldnt get back to gm magery/resist etc by simply casting a few spells around the house...
2. You couldn't lock your skills or stats until UO:R came out and this was a long time after the death of stat loss.

So thanks for clarifying it for us



Please listen to the people who arnt telling tales. Stat loss hurt.

Resist was hard to get back?...I mean stand in a fire field or something. Paralyze field for the 80+ point. Swords for your hally wasn't hard to get back, just spar with friends, Magery? Again cast on your friends or go hit up orc valley or Wrong. I always preferred casting on friends since it helped them build their resist skill too.

Maybe if you were a solo player it was a pain. As for locks on skills , that happened with Publish 1 back in November of 99....Stat loss wasn't removed until Publish 16 I think it was. By locking your skills correctly you could easily build your stats back up.

Example of see sawing skills to get your stats up quickly? Music and Eval Int to get your Dex and Int up if you were pure mage....Use Eval on your vendor, or after the change where it no longer worked on NPC's you'd use your buddy, then when you got to 25 skill you'd lock it into the down position and set music to gain and play a drum..... Rinse and repeat to get 25 STR, 100 Dex 100 Int.....or go balanced with 75 75 75 so mind blast wouldn't mess your world up.

Edit: I'm not trying to say it was super easy for resist or magery, just not as hard as you're trying to lead us to believe. At least in my memory it wasn't, of course I was 18 at the time and played 60+ hours a week it seemed.

 

[Unsatisfied]

Maybe if you were a solo player it was a pain. As for locks on skills , that happened with Publish 1 back in November of 99....Stat loss wasn't removed until Publish 16 I think it was. By locking your skills correctly you could easily build your stats back up.

From uoguide.com

Released on May 4, 2000, Ultima Online: Renaissance (UO:R) was the second expansion for UO. It had an estimated retail price of $19.95 US. However, current subscribers were not required to purchase a CD as the updated features were automatically downloaded to existing accounts.
Changes

Rule-Set Change/Landmass Mirror -- The most evident change was the splitting of the gamespace area in two. One area allowed non-consensual Player vs. Player (PvP) combat, while the other area did not. A mirror image of each other, the PvP facet was named Felucca and the other, Trammel. The change effectively doubled the gamespace, which allowed for additional player housing, player-run Cities & Towns, and easier access to crafting resources.
Skills Design Feature -- Perhaps the most popular introduction was the new skill management system, which allowed for more control over a character’s development. Prior to UO:R, not only could you not lock a skill, your skills could be altered simply by standing too close to another character who happened to be training. You could learn by watching, literally! UO:R introduced the Skill lock and the Stat lock.
Young Player Assistance -- Upon logging-in to the world, new players were given the opportunity to go through the new in-game tutorial. They were immediately taken to the safe town of Haven where they could both practice in a live game environment and benefit from one-on-one training, which was supplied by more than 2000 companion volunteers.
Party Up, Got To Party Up -- A new party system made it easier to adventure with a group of friends by facilitating group communication, combat, and profit and reward sharing.
Special Moves -- Special moves introduced. Every Two-Handed Weapon of the three fighting skills was given a special ability that had a 20% chance of executing on each blow. These special moves only worked in Player vs. Player combat.
Macing delivered a Crushing Blow.
Fencing weapons delivered a Paralyzing Blow.
Swordsmanship delivered a Concussion Blow.



On another note I really dont want to sit around and argue about how difficult skills were back then... Doesnt look like you played then anyway... But I'm going to bed.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

From uoguide.com


On another note I really dont want to sit around and argue about how difficult skills were back then... Doesnt look like you played then anyway... But I'm going to bed.

I can search uoguide.com too....Here's my source. Without the annoying bold.
UO guide publish 1 November 23 1999

And just an Excerpt.

Skill Management

In an effort to give players more control over their character’s skills we will be implementing a skill management system. To facilitate this management the skill menu will be changed in the following ways:

* A toggle button will be added at the top of the menu. This toggle button will change the state of the menu so that it will show or hide your character’s unmodified skill numbers. This will allow you to see what your actual skill level is unmodified from stats.
* A toggle button will be added next to each skill. This toggle button will have three states: "up", "down", and "stop". Skills marked "up" will rise normally and will never go down. Skills marked "down" will be candidates for atrophy. Skills marked "stop" will not go up or down, regardless of how often they are used.
* A field will be added to the bottom of the skill menu that lists the character’s unmodified skill total. This will allow you to see how close you are to the skill cap (700).


Edit: Official Patch Notes trump wiki entry? I can see where Unsatisfied's frustration is coming from though since Publish 5 brought us Ren in April of 2000.....See-Sawing stats was only viable for about 6 months, before the skill locks it was a bit of a pain, but still nowhere near as bad as he wants to remember.

 

[Trebr Drab]

More and more I have the feeling that we need something more than just stat loss. So I'll quote myself again looking for input.

Does anyone agree?
Any other ideas would be very much appreciated.

But we somehow have to have that extra something, and this I am very sure of.
I sort of like Renyards idea of making playing a red more difficult. This might be the answer to what I'm saying. But I don't like it as stated for the same reason I don't like switches and Trammel and the like. It feels artificial. I'm wondering though, what if Reds with large murder counts can be "cursed" by player characters who've earned some title from the Virtue of Justice, and have a magical power to do so. Something that goes beyond the regular stat loss on res idea. Maybe this makes them perma red, with a minimum stat loss on every res.

I'm really curious what you all think of this. It needs work, obviously.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

Stat loss alone will not stop rampant PKing. A "switch" isn't the answer either. The more I wax nostalgic and think about how I played back then I remember I spent more time killing blues who exploited the rep system than I did killing reds. The more I focus my thoughts on the past the more I seem to remember mainly fighting reds who were members of Black Company or Blackrock clan of Orcs. I kinda sit on the fence of statloss the more I think about it. I didn't have a problem with it, nor did those of us in my guild have a problem with it, but we also had mules to keep us well supplied. Maybe stat loss did drive away the immature gankers who didn't really care for a challange, but that didn't stop them from exploiting the rep system to avoid murder counts.

Maybe it is the rep system we need to think about? It was insanely easy to get someone to flag so you could kill them without risking a murder count. You could steal from them with a low skill so they'd catch you and you'd be flagged hoping they would attack you so you could kill them, run into their blade spirit at the Ogre Lords room, etc...

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Stat loss on rez alone will not stop rampant PKing. It didn't work the first time, it won't work this time.

In fact, PKing was a problem on most of the shards, some worse than others...but on a Classic Shard it will be worse than it ever was on any previous shard because it will be the only shard that allows it.

As Llewyn rightly pointed out, the people that were the victims of PKs (sheep) in the past will likely not even bother with a Classic Shard that doesn't have Trammel, and the ones that do, will get very tired of PKs very quickly unless some tough measures are put in place in the begining.

I have been saying that stat loss should be the only real penalty at first, but I have changed my mind. There needs to be more than stat loss or the shard will fail quickly.


Now you will get a handful of posters here that will say things like:

- "Well, you must have not really played back then because blah blah blah"
- "There were no victims, no one was upset by PKs. There was one person on Pacific that complained so the GMs and Devs changed the entire game around that guy"
- "The Devs only put in Trammel to open up housing space, PKing was never a problem."

Here's some insight for you...

The people saying things like these are the people that want to pick up where they left off when Trammel was introduced. They want to go back to PKing every player they come across with no real penalty for doing so.

So say what you need to say about me, and how much of a "Trammie" I must be, or how I must be lying about how long I played...etc. etc.

It doesn't change the fact that a shard filled with nothing but PKs = FAIL.

*edited:

 

[Evlar]

So long as they come and buy weapons and armour from me, where I'll be stood at Brit Forge, they can all gank each other as much as they like

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

While the penalties for being red should be severe, like I and many others have stated, we also need to think about "fixes" to the rep system to prevent it's exploitation. The only thing that comes to my mind is kinda like the Yielding system that I think was in Elder Scrolls IV or Fallout 3, where if you hit a companion you can yield and they'll stop being aggressive to you.

This is what I"m thinking about...Random Guy killing Ogre Lords with bladespirits encounter Murder Count Avoider. Avoider runs into the bladespirit thus flagging Random Guy who in turn says something like "I yield to thee" or whatnot to cancel the flagging.

Yeah I know, this is easily exploited as well to avoid warranted killings but it's one way, if EA addressed this type of exploitation well it was after I left the game.

As for people stealing in order to get flagged, well if you attack a flagged criminal, you've started the fight and you should accept the consequences, at least that's how I've always felt. I still don't like the idea that a pk can get around counts this way, but it's a way Grey area in my mind.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

if you attack a flagged criminal, you've started the fight and you should accept the consequences

This.

 

[Trebr Drab]

So long as they come and buy weapons and armour from me, where I'll be stood at Brit Forge, they can all gank each other as much as they like

How's business these days?

The correct answer, under this topic, is "It's not at all the same."

If a "worldly" game cannot maintain the worldliness, it has to change to something "gamey".

And UO didn't, and has.
My point is that you should care, or your answer should always be "It's not at all the same" when in the context of this topic.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

So long as they come and buy weapons and armour from me, where I'll be stood at Brit Forge, they can all gank each other as much as they like

Well...you gotta leave the forge sometime to get your metal so you might not care for them then..., but i'll be in line for a nice heavy archer suit with a metal kite and broadsword, or maybe full plate and a hally depending on what style of combat our wishful server will have.

And yeah since I know someone will point it out, in the months prior to UO:R I was a dex monkey, though I never went whole hog and picked up fencing.

 

[Llewen]

Just my two cents. If you start putting in pvp switches or penalties for pk'ing that are too severe you will destroy one of the fundamentals of a "classic" server and you might as well not even bother creating it in the first place. Like it or not non-consentual pvp is what will drive a classic server, and will be one of the main reasons many will want to check it out. Which incidentally will also be one of the many reasons why classic servers will never replace "regular" UO.