Chivalry overpowered in PVM.

[Harlequin]

First, let me clarify this again - My main is a mage. I play my mages 90% of the time rather than my warrior, even in Doom. Out of 5 templates (mage, tamer, bard, crafter) in my account, only my warrior doesn't have magery. And of the 4 mages, only 1 has eval. So I am more biased favorably towards mages than warriors. But even so, objectively speaking, I really do not think that chiv is overpowered in PvM. I call it only as I see it.

I agree that chiv is very useful and makes it alot easier to close the gap between people with uber gear and the have nots. But I think this is a wonderful aspect that allows player that are not decked out with arties to compete a bit better. Reasoning is that not matter how many arties you pack, there's a cap. See my previous post where I mentioned with my gear, I was basically wasting most of my mana/tithing with EoO, I would have reached the cap by adding a 25% DI ring. If viewed from this aspect, it's actually playing a balancing factor between haves and have nots.

Regarding DPS output however, I think mages need a buff here instead of nerfing chiv. Warriors can tank and dish out damage. Mages normaly can't tank and can't dish out DPS (note that I say DPS, not simply damage) like a warrior.

Holy Light can do most spawns by itself...so it doesnt always need a weapon skill.

Yes, but that's the only spell that is available. At 70, it fizzles like hell. It's simply not a very feasible standalone skill.

With 0 Eval and with magery at the same level of 70, magery has no area effect spell. But you have fire field and poison field, you can do similar spawns via Blade Spirit AND mindblast. No eval required. Magery is a very feasible standalone skill.

Even with the support argument..the skill is overpowered.

Chiv is amazing with only 60 skill.

Name one other skill good at 60 skill...

At 60 skill, a paladin can cast 9 out of 10 spells. Some of them are amazing. Sacred journey, Close wounds, Cleanse by fire, EoO, Conc weap, Divine fury.

But without a weapon skill, only 1 of them does damage - Holy light. Other than Holy Light, you need a weaponskill and tactics.



At 60 skill, a mage can cast 48 out of 64 spells. Some of them are amazing.
Recall, heal/greater heal, cure/arch cure, reactive armour/reflect magic to adjust resists on the fly, protection/arch protection, teleport, wall of stone, dispel, invis, mark, reveal. None of these require eval.

Besides the utility spells above, without eval, you still have many damage spells - poison, fire field/poisonfield, bladespirit, mindblast. Even magic arrow/harm/firebal/lightning/ebolt can do damage without eval, but lowered damage like a warrior without tactics.

This vast selection of spells that magery have for different levels is why I believe that it's not a case that the current chiv spells have low requirements, but rather, chiv is lacking in higher level spells. Hence my suggestion of adding a couple of spells at 80 and 90 skills respectively.

So, in light of the arsenal of spells that a mage has, all things aside, do you really think 60 chiv is better than 60 magery? Or asked another way, if the skill cap was 60 instead of 720 and you were given a choice between 60 magery and 60 chiv, which would you choose?

I am going to list supports skills that need GM or better:
Resist Spells
Spirit Speak
Evaluate Intelligence
Tactics
Anatomy
Animal Lore
Music
Mining
Ninjitsu

The only support skills that give any benefit under GM are:
Med
Focus
Stealth

None of which give numerous spells at your disposal.

Magery. Depending on whether it's your main offensive skill, magery can be considered a support skill eg - my tamer, bard and crafter (ie my 0 eval mages) use it as a support skill.

Besides magery, as support skills, I have ninjitsu at 70 (for my mage), anatomy at 80.1, spirit speak at 0 (using JOAT), so these skill doesn't need to reach GM before becoming very useful. Tactics is also very useful at just 90, but since I get extra 20% damage at gm, I normally pump it to GM.


I have read many of your posts while I was lurking all these years, and your posts are normally pretty balanced and objective, this is not like you at all.

 

[Harlequin]

So would the self-professed chiv/bushido guy or the frothy paladin roleplayer care to take up the gauntlet and name ANY potential melee/archer template that doesn't immediately become better when I clip something else off and add chivalry? I can think of specific templates where spellweaving/necro/whatever don't really belong, but can you NAME ANY MELEE OR ARCHER TEMPLATE THAT ISN'T SELF-NERFING BY NOT BEING A PALADIN?

Christ, if I recall they had to introduce specific nerfs just to keep every MAGE from having it too.

I have answered thrice (including this). Yes, you are quite right there, with regards to DPS, chiv excels like no other skills. As a warrior, you are indeed nerfing your DPS by not being a paladin unless you already have the perfect gear (slayer plus 100% DI). Chiv allows these people to keep up.

But the issue is not because it's a case of chiv being overpowered. It's an extra skill that can allow you to dish out higher DPS.

Warriors have tactics/anat/lj/chiv that can boost damage. Some people find that it's worth it to sacrifice healing to get anat/lj/chiv/necro for increased DPS. Others prefer to keep healing so that they can keep themselves alive better.

Mages only have eval. If they added a skill called "Spellfire" that will boost my spell damage further (but less than what eval can do), would I be nerfing my damage output if I don't take it? Definitely. But will everyone take it? Depends on their playstyle. I am very comfortable with my stealth mage and have no more room for more skill. If I take out stealth and add spellfire, I have basically sacrificed my ability to safely sneak past a gauntlet of mobs in return for better damage.

Is that exchange worth it? It all depends on people's playstyle and whether they think the sacrifice is worth it. For me, I would have to weigh the advantages and which style of playing I like better. However, it would not be right of me to want to keep my stealthing abilities while creating a new account to try to convince people that spellfire is overpowered.

 

[Harlequin]

Sure, we should just rename the game Paladins Online though, since you apparently think it's fine for Chivalry to be a required core skill of every single warrior in the game, same as tactics.

When every single samurai and necromancer and warrior in UO has to also be a paladin, that's cool and means Chivalry is totally balanced.

Why didn't I think of that?

This comes up for other skills too, like samurai, necros, mages and archers too, people getting discouraged and asks why the game's not called Mages Online or Archers Online etc.

Then again, according to your first sentence, it should be called Tacticians Online before Paladins Online. Since tactics is a required core skill.

 

[Limlight]

True, Anatomy can be used to cure healing at 80...but you cant rez.

You need atleast 90 Tactics to do weapon specials.

If they raised the Chivalry needed to 90 that would be sufficient.

For the skill to be 90% effective in all but 2 of the spells is pretty dumb with 60 skill.

I am not saying nerf the skills.

I am saying raise the requirements to cast them. Thats all.

Also, think of this...

Wither without Spirit Speak does crap for damage and still needs 105 to never fail.

Holy Light with 105 Chivalry doesnt need any support skill to do damage.

That doesnt seem right to me.

Bottom line is...Either Chivalry needs a support skill like every other spell based skill (Necro, Magery) or it needs to be nerfed slightly. Bushido and ninjitsu both took nerfs.

Bushido took an evade, confidence and lightning strike nerf
Ninjitsu took a nerf to death strike..its almost pointless for archers now...also a subskill of Tracking was added to it.

I think Focus should be a sub-skill for Chivalry or the skill requirements need to be raised severely.

Frankly, I think making Focus a subskill makes more sense. But at the same time, I think if that was done...Focus's regens should get a boost if you have GM or higher Chivalry.

 

[RibaIdry]

Then again, according to your first sentence, it should be called Tacticians Online before Paladins Online. Since tactics is a required core skill.

This is a facile and ridiculous attempt at a point. Tactics is clearly intended as a core warrior skill, since base weapon damage is actively penalized for not having it. In addition, it's one of the primary skills used to distinguish between warriors and non-warriors from a design standpoint. Weapon specials were tied to tactics skill, for example, to keep them in the hands of warriors and out of the hands of weapon-using mages.

Meanwhile chivalry is simply a specialization skill that's quietly become mandatory by way of being overpowered. Nobody sat down prior to Age of Shadows and went "Paladins versus necromancers? That's a crappy theme, let's make it paladins versus necro paladins!" No developer was working on Samurai Empire and thinking "I can't believe we're adding samurai paladins finally!"

If Draconi or someone were to post in here, tell me with a straight face that you think they would respond with "Oh yeah, totally intended for all warriors to just be different flavors of paladin!"

 

[WarUltima]

This is a facile and ridiculous attempt at a point. Tactics is clearly intended as a core warrior skill, since base weapon damage is actively penalized for not having it. In addition, it's one of the primary skills used to distinguish between warriors and non-warriors from a design standpoint. Weapon specials were tied to tactics skill, for example, to keep them in the hands of warriors and out of the hands of weapon-using mages.

Meanwhile chivalry is simply a specialization skill that's quietly become mandatory by way of being overpowered. Nobody sat down prior to Age of Shadows and went "Paladins versus necromancers? That's a crappy theme, let's make it paladins versus necro paladins!" No developer was working on Samurai Empire and thinking "I can't believe we're adding samurai paladins finally!"

If Draconi or someone were to post in here, tell me with a straight face that you think they would respond with "Oh yeah, totally intended for all warriors to just be different flavors of paladin!"

There are also Tamer Archer Paladins my guildie has one. They have very good damage potential. I have a Samurai Necro(Vamp form) Paladin and hes a completely crazy damage dealer and survives extremely well too. I also have a 4/6 Ninja Fencing Paladin that does very well in PvP. Also a stealthing Archer Paladin... I just cant think of an instance where I would give up my 60 points in chiv (the highest chiv I got is 60 across 4 different paladins).

If I dont use the chiv for damage, I am using it for healing/curing/recalling/remove curse.

Facts are facts. I simply cant lie with straight face and say that Chiv is "not that good". Oh!! it's not just good, its FANTASTIC.

Even a dexer with slayer, without cons weapon they are simply inferior to other dexers who have it. Two dexers both with Dragon Slayer in hand, both weapon 100% physical damage. The guy without chiv w/ 300DI would hit a hiryu for 25 to 35, the other guy with cons weapon would be dealing at least 100 a hit. This is the fact, and now how hard is it to find a slayer weapon that you can use? Not that hard, now how hard is it to make a collection of a slayers with 100% in that element just to kill 1 SPECIFIC MOB...... ok now extend that to ALL the slayer types... Damn why not just spend 60 point and save yourself years of RL time to collect those weapons. And cons weapon auto switches element without you needing to switch weapon at all.

I like chiv, dont know if its overpowered or not. But any dexers who knows how the game works and dont have it, just got themselves nerfed... HARD.

 

[o2bavr6]

The only reason so many people have it is that it's easier to cast consecrate weapon than it is to use a different elemental weapon for each opponent.

Apart from that, chivalry doesn't have any powers which can't be duplicated by other means.

It can heal, but you can also heal via concentration, spirit speak, healing skill, magery, or leeching
It can cure, but you can also cure via potions, magery, healing
It can remove curse, but you can also remove curse via apples or faction bandages.
It can give you 50% damage against an opponent, but you can also get extra damage through perfection, items, lightning strike or slayer weapons.
It can restore stamina, at more mana cost than a refresh potion
It can make you swing faster, but with a fast weapon, do you really need that ability?
It can push monsters away from you, just like running away
It can damage everything around you, just like skills from weapons, necromancy, spellweaving and magery
And finally, you can ressurect a lot of people at once.

So um... what's the overpowered bit?

You mean other than the fact that you can basically benefit from the entire skill with only 80 skill points invested. let alone that some of the spells cast way to fast, like cleans by fire or remove curse.

Hmm.... an extra 40 points towards other skills... na it's not over powered, just a poorly implemented skill that they will never fix in fear of nerfing newbies ability to compete.

 

[YuriGaDaisukiDa]

All templates vs. Monsters are over-powered.

Name one that isnt.

Okay herding. Besides that.

lol?

herding is actualy the MOST overpowered pvm ability

combine herding with bard skills, and you are a tamer with no controll slot cap

 

[Harlequin]

Post removed as the wife says it's a bit mean

 

[Harlequin]

You mean other than the fact that you can basically benefit from the entire skill with only 80 skill points invested.

Yes, herein lies 1 of the issues. It doesn't have any spells in the 80s and 90s that would entice people into getting higher levels of Chivalry. Looking at the small number of spells available to paladins (10 for chiv, 64 for mages, 17 for necros), I believe that the issue is not the low requirements of the existing spells, but rather, it's lacking in spells, specifically in the 80s and 90s minimum requirement regions. The spells must also be decent enough to warrant the extra skill investment.

That, plus the OP's and Rav's ideas of scaling EoO damage according to skill level would bring much more depth to the game.

 

[Harlequin]

True, Anatomy can be used to cure healing at 80...but you cant rez.

My bad, I was thinking of 81 anat, the level that will allow rez. (61 allows curing).

Yes, 90 tactics is sweet, since it enables the 2nd special But it's just 10 points away from another 20% damage (90 to 100 = 10%, plus the 10% bonus at gm), so close...

 

[Riba1dry]

They can work a mount summoning spell in there somewhere. Holy warhorse or whatever. Reasonably high skill requirement and high enough mana cost that it's not something you casually cast whenever dismounted. Doesn't seem hard to code either.

But yeah, EOO needs to scale off skill. There needs to be a valid reason to take the skill to 120, and make including it an actual decision to consider and not an automatic "squeeze these 60 points on or you're a gimp" thing.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Tell ya what, as soon as monsters CAN'T hit a meleer for more than half of their hit points WITH A SINGLE HIT, not to mention taking out most of the rest from magical damage (of which is in no way attainable by any player), then we can discuss the merits of Chivalry.

Until then, monsters don't complain. There's no such thing as overpowered in today's PvM when a single monster can do 100+ damage in 2 seconds or less.

It's a pretty damn sad ass day when someone starts complainging about Chivalry in PvM, and is a true indication that some people need to quit banksitting and go out and play the damn game instead of thinking up new ways to **** up people's templates.

 

[Riba1dry]

Go cry into your cape, roleplayer. Either that or make a logical point. I've been posting numbers and making rational proposals. All you've done is come in here and shriek about how some people yelled at you on a board six years ago.

WHEN EVERY WARRIOR IN UO IS A PALADIN SOMETHING IS AWRY. GO LOOK AT THE GUY A FEW POSTS UP WITH THE NINJA FENCING PALADIN, THE STEALTH ARCHER PALADIN, AND THE NECRO SAMURAI PALADIN.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Go cry into your cape, roleplayer.

Sorry, not a RP'r here, but then that wouldn't be the first time you've been wrong in this thread.

I'll just add it to the list of idiotic things you've said so far.


Every warrior is a paladin because there're only so many meleer skills, and Chiv happens to be one of them. Outside of the different melee skills, the only other meleer skills are Bushido & Ninjitsu, of which you only use one or the other depending on what you plan on doing with the character. If there were more meleer skills to choose from, you might see more variation. As there isn't, guess what. Everyone uses Chiv. Get over it.


So stick that in your pipe and smoke it. It's probably better than whatever you've been smoking.



Oh, and when you can actually keep a username for more than 20 posts, someone "might" pay attention to you. Until then, you're just another banksitter that has too much time on their hands and too little sense in their posts.

 

[Limlight]

Yes, herein lies 1 of the issues. It doesn't have any spells in the 80s and 90s that would entice people into getting higher levels of Chivalry. Looking at the small number of spells available to paladins (10 for chiv, 64 for mages, 17 for necros), I believe that the issue is not the low requirements of the existing spells, but rather, it's lacking in spells, specifically in the 80s and 90s minimum requirement regions. The spells must also be decent enough to warrant the extra skill investment.

That, plus the OP's and Rav's ideas of scaling EoO damage according to skill level would bring much more depth to the game

.

Necromany gets 17 spells because 2 different skills at GM or better needed. It SHOULD have more like 20 spells.

10 spells is enough for a skill that requires no sub skill.

 

[Riba1dry]

Every warrior is a paladin

Thanks, that's all I really needed you to acknowledge. You can go back to frothing and spinning your wheels trying to pretend necro/bush/ninja/spellweaving all don't exist and that every single warrior being a paladin is exactly how things were intended all along.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Thanks, that's all I really needed you to acknowledge.

It wasn't an acknowledgement, but since you have blinders on to everything that's been said in opposition to your moronic post, I wouldn't expect you to understand. Hell, I don't even think you COULD if you tried.

You can go back to frothing and spinning your wheels trying to pretend necro/bush/ninja/spellweaving all don't exist and that every single warrior being a paladin is exactly how things were intended all along.

You're the one frothing, and you're also the one that's spinning his wheels seeing as you can't even debate a very well made point. That point being-

THERE AREN'T ENOUGH MELEE SKILLS TO HAVE THE VARIETY YOU'RE HAVING YOUR WET DREAMS ABOUT SO OF COURSE EVERYONE HAS CHIVALRY

Did you get it now? If not, there's no hope for you. Just step out into the middle of the freeway during rush hour and take the easy way out.

 

[northwoodschopper]

I would like to see the skill invested in Chivalry have a greater effect on the abilities. I do have a paladin with 120.0 invested in chivalry and enough karma where I no longer gain on anything less than paragon lich lords, it's curious that there isn't that much of a disparity in abilities from of a character with two-thirds the skill and half the karma.

 

[Jirel of Joiry]

Okay I seem to remember that originally Focus was "SUPPOSED" to be a support skill for Chivalry. I remember reading this in some Pre-AoS release stuff. I'll dig around UO.com see if I can find it.

Does anyone else remember this or am I going senile?

 

[Riba1dry]

THERE AREN'T ENOUGH MELEE SKILLS TO HAVE THE VARIETY YOU'RE HAVING YOUR WET DREAMS ABOUT SO OF COURSE EVERYONE HAS CHIVALRY[/I][/U][/B]

Right, right, I see. That's why every melee is also a spellweaving ninja sampire, right? Smacking up champs with that awesome immolating weapon/focus attack combo, yeah? Because there aren't that many melee skills, what else are they supposed to do but cast curse weapon and hammer away with ki attack?

Oh wait, none of that happens. It's all chivalry+whatever. There are different combinations, but every single one includes chivalry. I rest my case.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Right, right, I see. That's why every melee is also a spellweaving ninja sampire, right?

You really need to learn what the hell you're trying to talk about before you comment on it.

First, ANY Sampire could put SW on his template very easily simply by dropping Anatomy. They don't because SW is too mana intensive for most meleer/archer templates, especially after the mana leech/mana regen nerfs, so you rarely see it unless someone has gone to some extremes in suit building.

Second, WTF do you think a Sampire is? BUSHIDO + NECRO ARE BOTH PART OF THE TEMPLATE, and yes, we do cast Necro spells, just in case you're stupid enough to think that Vamp form is the only spell used.

Third, Bushido and Ninjitsu are NOT complimentary skills. You either have one or the other on a template, but never both because they're for 2 different playstyles.

There are different combinations, but every single one includes chivalry

As I said, there's only so many skills to choose from as a meleer or an archer. If I say that enough times will it sink through that bomb shelter-thick skull of yours?

 

[Riba1dry]

First, ANY Sampire could put SW on his template very easily simply by dropping Anatomy.

But why would they, when they can fit chivalry on there?

Second, WTF do you think a Sampire is? BUSHIDO + NECRO ARE BOTH PART OF THE TEMPLATE, and yes, we do cast Necro spells, just in case you're stupid enough to think that Vamp form is the only spell used.

Of course even with all that, you'd be an idiot not to have chivalry on there too, in that anatomy slot you're not putting spellweaving into.

Third, Bushido and Ninjitsu are NOT complimentary skills. You either have one or the other on a template, but never both because they're for 2 different playstyles

Of course you'd better put chivalry with either one.

As I said, there's only so many skills to choose from as a meleer or an archer. If I say that enough times will it sink through that bomb shelter-thick skull of yours?

All you've told me is that while their are many and diverse skills for different purposes, chivalry is mandatory for everything. Because it's overpowered.

Concession accepted.

 

[ColterDC]

I don't think it's so much that Chiv is overpowered, more the fact that when building a template you have most skills around GM with a few important ones at 110, 115 or 120.

This generally leaves you with around 50-70 spare skill points. So what are your options at that point?

Focus - waste of skill points

Med - better have a meddable suit

Necro - Alot of warriors already have this and without SS alot of the spells are useless. Plus you're either ruining your suit for LRC or you're carrying regs.

SW - A few useful spells, but nothing all that great.

Magery - Going to need LRC or carry regs. Plus without Eval alot of the spells are useless.

I'm sure there are a few other skill choices to fill in the remainder of your template, but as you can see, when you only have 50-70 spare skills points your options are somewhat limited.

 

[Harlequin]

.

Necromany gets 17 spells because 2 different skills at GM or better needed. It SHOULD have more like 20 spells.

10 spells is enough for a skill that requires no sub skill.

Karma and weaponskill requirements aside, let's take a look at a couple of other casting skills with no subskill requirement or if the subskill is left at 0:

Necro
Yes, 10 out of 17 necro spells is affected by ss. But none of them actually require both necro and ss to be GM. 4 out of 17 spells do have higher requirements than 65 skill though, and of course, the higher your necro and ss are, the more effective they became until you get 100% success, but majority of the spells can be cast with 0 ss and still be marginally useful.

Magery
At least 40 out of 64 spells in magery have no eval requirements. Includes untility spells plus a handful of damaging spells like mindblast, fields, blade spirit, ev.

Spellweaving
No subskill at all. 16 spells.

Bushido and ninjitsu have even less spells than chiv. They need more spells too. However, at least they have abilities that scale with the skill, and that gives a reason for people to pump it to 120.

 

[Harlequin]

Thanks, that's all I really needed you to acknowledge. You can go back to frothing and spinning your wheels trying to pretend necro/bush/ninja/spellweaving all don't exist and that every single warrior being a paladin is exactly how things were intended all along.

But you are not a paladin right? So to you, it's not useful enough to swap out other skills for. You'd rather keep your current skills because you find it more to your taste than adding chiv. Even knowing that you are nerfing your own damage potential.

Btw, why are you creating 3 different alts and splitting your post counts between them?

 

[gjohnson5]

My bushido template is all 120's and my Point of View will be based on this
120 Fencing
120 Parry
120 Tactics
120 Healing
120 Anatomy
120 Bushido

IMHO in comparison to busido and ninjitsu, chivalry uses alot less points and doesn't have the nerfs that the other 2 do. Talon strike requires you to have hiding and stealth which will take away from anatomy and tactics for adding to base damage. Not to mention backstab has been nerfed probably for PVP reasons. The animal forms are nerfed in that you can do poisoning or any of the weapon skills in unicorn / ki-rin form.

*edit*
Ninjitsu is also many intensive in melee due to mirror image
*edit*

In terms of necromancy, If you go the sampire or wampire route , you have to take away from weapon skill, anatomy and tactics as well as drop parry in order to get the necro and chivalry in there. Vampric embrace will replace the damage with life drain attacks and your HP and stamina will regen faster..

Chivalry provides the most gain for the fewest points used. It also does not contain the nerfs above.

IMHO due to the 1000 strength of balrons and other higher end monsters most melee templates stamina would be reduced heavily from 1 hit from these guys. So your ability to kill it is heavily reduced until stamina is regenned. Divine Fury provides a quick fix for that.

Those at range fighting a champ boss don't have the stamina problem and can cast EEO on a champ boss and easily do 100-150 damage each hit with an archery weapon. IMHO the problem is archery not chivalry. crossbow, bow, heavy xbow (yumi as well) base damage should be reduced to around the elven composite bow range. Velocity should be removed from the game entirely. Balanced weapons should be reserved for melee , not archers. It makes no sense that archers can use potions and melee people getting there stamina reduced from melee hits cannot. Also I think the evasion nerf should be reduced such that you can evasion more often. Talon strike should have the hiding and stealth requirements removed. In order to do a talon strike you have to be in melee in the first place.

IMHO melee is very hard to play in this game when dealing with champ bosses. balrons or other monsters with 100 strength and then cast spells. The changes to greater dragons make them ridiculous and I see people wasting their time trying to melee them. It's not worth the insurance money

 

[gjohnson5]

My PVM ninjitsu template looks like this
100 Fencing (20+ points added from ring and bracelet)
120 tactics
120 Anatomy
120 Ninjitsu
100 healing
100 poisoning
60 focus

I do not miss chivalry with this template. I solo yamadons and get exceptional and exotic seeds AND keep my Lord title. Ki-Rin form + mirror image means my stamina stays high and I don't get hit too often. I can stone poisoning and use magic resistance if necessary for casters in PVM. This template can solo balrons as well. If in normal form, Level5 poison works well on changling paragons, spite , irk. Obviously some of the strength and dex would have to be dropped for intelligence since this template will use mana heavily. Hence the 60 focus as well. Mirror Image + 100 healing means my heals I don't get interrupted with heals like you would with chivalry. Dog and cat form @ 120 ninjitsu is awesome! This template doesn't need chivalry and infact I think the mana regen / mirror image would be hurt with it.

IMHO Chivalry is not the problem

 

[Hanna]

True, Anatomy can be used to cure healing at 80...but you cant rez.
anatomy cures at 60 and you can rez at 80

You need atleast 90 Tactics to do weapon specials.
70 is required - and your saying because they aready nerfed warriors through tactics, they should nerf their other skills too?

If they raised the Chivalry needed to 90 that would be sufficient.

For the skill to be 90% effective in all but 2 of the spells is pretty dumb with 60 skill.
Nope - you have to have 70 to not fizle in those skills and chivalry has the fewest spells of all spell casters total 8 spells and 5 are defensive spells

I am not saying nerf the skills.

I am saying raise the requirements to cast them. Thats all.
At 70 skill level you can 32 spells in magery with no fizle, and 75% chance at 8 more, plus another 8 at 50%.

There are no spells in chivalry you can cast below 70 skill without a chance of fizling.

Also, think of this...

Wither without Spirit Speak does crap for damage and still needs 105 to never fail.

Holy Light with 105 Chivalry doesnt need any support skill to do damage.
Holy light does alot less damage than whither and spirit speak does increase damage and durations on several spells

That doesnt seem right to me. does to me

 

[Riba1dry]

yamadons ... balrons ... changling paragons, spite , irk

If you're coming in here like "I can solo a balron!" then you don't really know what high-end PVM means. Go line up in the Doom gauntlet with a bunch of chiv archers and see who does the least damage.

 

[gjohnson5]

If you're coming in here like "I can solo a balron!" then you don't really know what high-end PVM means. Go line up in the Doom gauntlet with a bunch of chiv archers and see who does the least damage.

Wow I was hoping something on point was added. So the trolling question has been answered.
As to your false assertion Doom is no problem for those templates and neither are champ spawns.

 

[WarUltima]

The most useful chiv spells in question can be cast on the run, and spammed. For other spells they will have 4 FC means its almost instant anyways. Chiv is actually the only skill that I dont mind fizzling. As I said I have only 60 chiv, sometimes it takes me 10 tries to cast EoO, but with 4/6 I just hold down the macro key and it will spam it, 20 recasts takes 5 seconds at most and I can do it while running away from the dangerous monsters, and once it cast it last for 3 minutes at full potential......

People really arguing about how chiv skill fizzles? At 60 Chiv and level 5 karma I close wound for 33 damage at 4/6 casting it's pretty impressive. Maybe someone needs to try how much greater heal heals you for at 60 magery, and takes literally double the casting time.

Just admit it, we all like chiv. There's zero other skills in game that grants so many benefits and most of them at full potential at merely 60 skill points.

I know for a fact chiv is too good to not have it. All you really need is 60 points and that gives you 100% close wound, remove curse, and cleanse by fire, the 3 most important defensive skills. Unless you are a holy light spammer, the rest of the spells in chiv can be spammed on the run until they stick.

The fact is as a 10yr vet I've never seem a skill so powerful at so low of point requirement. Is it overpowered? well compare to other skills... yes, but do I want it changed? NO. It will **** up most of my dexer templates. :bowdown:

It's PvM skill dont balance it. It's better for newer players to close in the gaps between the haves and have-nots.

 

[Connor_Graham]

But why would they, when they can fit chivalry on there?

Of course even with all that, you'd be an idiot not to have chivalry on there too, in that anatomy slot you're not putting spellweaving into.

Of course you'd better put chivalry with either one.

I'm not even going to bother responding to these individually. What I will say is who said Chiv wasn't already part of the templates, along with every other skill you seem to think isn't, but actually is? I guess you know now what an ass you look like when you make assumptions huh?

All you've told me is that while their are many and diverse skills for different purposes, chivalry is mandatory for everything. Because it's overpowered.

I didn't say Chiv was mandatory for anything. I said that all of the skills you're complaining about for diversity are ALREADY ON THE TEMPLATES ALONG WITH CHIVALRY.

My God man, is your skull really that thick, or are you just a legend in your own mind? I think the last time I ran into such dimwitted posts was when guildmule was still around.

You're starting to make him look intelligent.

 

[gjohnson5]

The most useful chiv spells in question can be cast on the run, and spammed. For other spells they will have 4 FC means its almost instant anyways. Chiv is actually the only skill that I dont mind fizzling. As I said I have only 60 chiv, sometimes it takes me 10 tries to cast EoO, but with 4/6 I just hold down the macro key and it will spam it, 20 recasts takes 5 seconds at most and I can do it while running away from the dangerous monsters, and once it cast it last for 3 minutes at full potential......

People really arguing about how chiv skill fizzles? At 60 Chiv and level 5 karma I close wound for 33 damage at 4/6 casting it's pretty impressive. Maybe someone needs to try how much greater heal heals you for at 60 magery, and takes literally double the casting time.

Just admit it, we all like chiv. There's zero other skills in game that grants so many benefits and most of them at full potential at merely 60 skill points.

I know for a fact chiv is too good to not have it. All you really need is 60 points and that gives you 100% close wound, remove curse, and cleanse by fire, the 3 most important defensive skills. Unless you are a holy light spammer, the rest of the spells in chiv can be spammed on the run until they stick.

The fact is as a 10yr vet I've never seem a skill so powerful at so low of point requirement. Is it overpowered? well compare to other skills... yes, but do I want it changed? NO. It will **** up most of my dexer templates. :bowdown:

It's PvM skill dont balance it. It's better for newer players to close in the gaps between the haves and have-nots.

Atleast we having something on point here....

IMHO if you've got 4 faster casting , you're losing in other places LMC , HP regen, Mana Regen, hit chance, defense chance, damage increase. I like all my jewelry for my melee temps to have hit chance , defense chance and damage increase. w/45 DCI and 100% damage increase, the need for EEO really isnt there. w/Atleast decent LMC and mana regen, you can lightning strike and momentum strike often since you're not casting chivalry spells. Also you wont be taking double damge from the other stuff around you from EEO

Secondly "Clense by Fire" doesn't cure DP very well. This means you CAN"T heal until that's fixed (unless you've got spirit speak)

Remove curse can be gained from enchanted apples. You can make a mule for that instead of buying them. I agree this is one area the other templates can't do and definitly helps when you're carrying lots of cash. Supposedly the very unpopular bag of sending change will be reversed and that won't be a problem anymore.

With healing ,you don't have to run and heal and you don't have to keep positive karma either But in terms of balancing skill points, I think the bandage self timer should be reduced to 4 since chivalry only needs 60% of the points (or 50% in the case of my Bushido template) Ninjitsu dog/cat form will allow for super fast hp regen. These are better options then removing healing and relying on Chivalry "close wounds" to heal. Hopefully your temp is a vampire atleast with some alternate form of healing.

I'll agree that the 60 points is few. IMHO what you sacrifice to only put 60 points in for your healing during combat is extremly limited. I want to press heal or cure macro once and thatl be successful. You give up alot for only investing 60 points into healing however. IMHO chivalry is a great addition for an archer. For a melee char I don't see it as this huge advantage especially without Bushido/Parry or Mirror Image. You're still getting hit

 

[Connor_Graham]

I don't think it's so much that Chiv is overpowered, more the fact that when building a template you have most skills around GM with a few important ones at 110, 115 or 120.

This generally leaves you with around 50-70 spare skill points. So what are your options at that point?

Focus - waste of skill points

Med - better have a meddable suit

Necro - Alot of warriors already have this and without SS alot of the spells are useless. Plus you're either ruining your suit for LRC or you're carrying regs.

SW - A few useful spells, but nothing all that great.

Magery - Going to need LRC or carry regs. Plus without Eval alot of the spells are useless.

I'm sure there are a few other skill choices to fill in the remainder of your template, but as you can see, when you only have 50-70 spare skills points your options are somewhat limited.

I actually agree with this as it's pretty much the same point I've been trying to make. Once you get all of the dexxer skills onto a template, there really aren't that many options left to use the last skill points on.

 

[Riba1dry]

Can we just delete the other melee skills then, so nobody builds a template around them by mistake?

Paladins Online.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Can we just delete the other melee skills then, so nobody builds a template around them by mistake?

Paladins Online.

What part of "all of the other skills are on the templates too" don't you understand?

It's not that hard a concept to grasp, yet you seem to not be able to comprehend it.

 

[gjohnson5]

What part of "all of the other skills are on the templates too" don't you understand?

It's not that hard a concept to grasp, yet you seem to not be able to comprehend it.

Trolls aren't known for reading and comprehending other people's posts.

 

[Old Man of UO]

*scratches head*

This is one of the dumbest-craziest on-going arguments I've ever read!

IF the point of this thread is to create diversity so that more melee types have something other than chivalry (at least that is what I think is the point???), then you are MUCH better off to enhance OTHER skills to replace the chivalry with other desirable abilities of equal importance.

Nerfing any skill should be the option of last resort. Increasing skill needed to cast a spell is also a nerf, no matter how you try to deny or twist the words.

 

[Limlight]

Necro
Yes, 10 out of 17 necro spells is affected by ss. But none of them actually require both necro and ss to be GM. 4 out of 17 spells do have higher requirements than 65 skill though, and of course, the higher your necro and ss are, the more effective they became until you get 100% success, but majority of the spells can be cast with 0 ss and still be marginally useful.

No one is going to only put 60 skill points in necro...that would be a waste of skill points.

Magery
At least 40 out of 64 spells in magery have no eval requirements. Includes untility spells plus a handful of damaging spells like mindblast, fields, blade spirit, ev.

Again, 60 points into this, unless its a mule that uses a bunch of items to push it over GM, is useless.

Spellweaving
No subskill at all. 16 spells.

Ironically, this would be the one area I would say needs to be nerfed skill point wise just like Chivalry. I know my entire guild and most guilds for that matter...ALWAYS get a lvl 5 with their JOAT skill so they can cast a decent GOR. GOR should definetly have a higher skill requirement.

Bushido and ninjitsu have even less spells than chiv. They need more spells too. However, at least they have abilities that scale with the skill, and that gives a reason for people to pump it to 120.

Bushido serves its purpose with Honor.
Ninjitsu gives you a mounts speed without an animal slot...that is benefit enough.

 

[Harlequin]

No one is going to only put 60 skill points in necro...that would be a waste of skill points.

Again, 60 points into this, unless its a mule that uses a bunch of items to push it over GM, is useless.

Ahh, but that is because there are better spells at the higher levels, no?

If magery has no spells above level 5, 65 magery would be more than sufficient to cast the other spells. The only reason to get more would be to prevent fizzling, just like chiv.

 

[Limlight]

If magery has no spells above level 5, 65 magery would be more than sufficient to cast the other spells. The only reason to get more would be to prevent fizzling, just like chiv.

Not comparable. The skills that fizzle on Chivalry at 60 skill dont have to be used for every ticker of damage.

Now, if you want to have to cast EOO every single time you swing...then I would be ok with where it at.

I dont think having to cast EOO 10 times to get it in effect for 5 minutes is a big deal.

Casting a magery damage spell 10 times IS A VERY BIG DEAL.

 

[Harlequin]

Not comparable. The skills that fizzle on Chivalry at 60 skill dont have to be used for every ticker of damage.

Now, if you want to have to cast EOO every single time you swing...then I would be ok with where it at.

I dont think having to cast EOO 10 times to get it in effect for 5 minutes is a big deal.

Casting a magery damage spell 10 times IS A VERY BIG DEAL.

Ahh, you are looking at spells with extended duration in addition to a weaponskill, that's why fizzling 10 times is not much of an issue. If your mage were able to fend off attacks like a warrior (ie you have equivalent weapon skill/tactics compared to the pally) while you try to cast blade spirit, it's also less of an issue. Because as soon as you succeed once, you're golden for the next 5 mins too.

The reason you have an impression that is ok to fail EoO 10 times in this case is because you are taking into consideration that the paladin has a weaponskill on top of his 65 chiv and is still dealing damage/defending himself. While at the same time you are picturing a mage with no weapon skills and only 65 magery.

Alternatively, if we look at taking away all other skills and allowed them both only 65 skill points in total (no weapon skill or eval), the paladin can only rely on holy light to deal damage. Fizzling 10 times on holy light would be a very big deal in this case.

Edit 1: The mage would have a much better advantage as well, since he has a much wider selection of spells.
Edit 2: Woot Woot post 666!

 

[Connor_Graham]

Now, if you want to have to cast EOO every single time you swing...then I would be ok with where it at.

I dont think having to cast EOO 10 times to get it in effect for 5 minutes is a big deal.

Max amount of time for EoO is 3 1/2 minutes, not 5 minutes.

Casting a magery damage spell 10 times IS A VERY BIG DEAL.

You're not comparing apples to apples. In order to utilize Chiv on a warrior template you need multiple skills at GM or higher. Magery only requires Eval & Med, leaving hundreds of skill points left over to put into anything else.


I honestly cannot believe people are complaining about Chiv in PvM. This has got to be the most asinine thread I've ever seen on Stratics.

My bet is that the OP is a Tamer or EV mage that got pissed because a dexxer was able to hunt in the same spot they were. I guess some people can't handle sharing the top of the food chain.

 

[Riba1dry]

Yes, I am a member of the Grand Tamer Conspiracy. My earlier and repeated calls for tamer and greater dragon nerfs in this very thread were all a clever ruse meant to obscure that fact. Good job figuring that one out, champ.

Actually, I'm a non-chivalry sampire who's been running Ilshenar champs and has noticed that he's always literally the ONLY person present who isn't a paladin, tamer, or mage. Every single dexxer* there is using chivalry.

Every. Last. One.

They don't all have spellweaving. They don't all have necromancy. The small number of melee skills you continue to girlishly scream about hasn't caused them to add ninjitsu just because. They're not using smoke bombs to cleverly survive while other people die. They're not going around with 80 magery casting blade spirits.

They're not doing any of the theorycrafted fantasy garbage that's been thrown around in this thread. They're not carefully fighting to avoid taking extra damage from other spawn thanks to EOO. They're standing there doing preposterous damage while the champ chews on some tamer's pet. Period.

Some of them might have necromancy in there somewhere. Some of them might have some spellweaving. Every single one has chivalry. No one cares what the failure rate on chiv spells are, because they can just hold their EOO key down and cast it within a few seconds anyway.

Paladins Online.

(* And by dexxer, really I mean archer. Melee is apparently near-dead in high level PVM. Go figure. Except for sampires, and then of course all samurai necromancers should also be paladins.)

 

[Old Man of UO]

You know, I've been noticing that every mage has well... magery! And every single tamer has magery too! Treasure hunters... magery! Blacksmiths, tinkers, carpenters and almost all fletchers... MAGERY!!

I think it is high time we apply the same principles proposed here to nerf magery, and increase the spell requirements to at least 90 to cast recall, cure and in-mani!

Absurd...

 

[Connor_Graham]

You know, I've been noticing that every mage has well... magery! And every single tamer has magery too! Treasure hunters... magery! Blacksmiths, tinkers, carpenters and almost all fletchers... MAGERY!!

I think it is high time we apply the same principles proposed here to nerf magery, and increase the spell requirements to at least 90 to cast recall, cure and in-mani!

Absurd...

Yup. It actually makes sense now. He's playing a character that he's intentionally limited and complaining about those who haven't because they're faring much better in the same arena. I was off with the class, but dead on with the reason.

Down with Magery! It's overpowered! Everyone and their grandmother's aunt's cousin's dad's sister's great grandmother and their mother uses it so it must be overpowered!

What a tool.....

 

[Old Man of UO]

...
What a TROLL.....

Fixed it for you, Connor.

 

[Riba1dry]

So let me get this straight:

1) Any melee or archer character which is not a paladin is deliberately limited and deserves to suck without question. Any necromancer warrior who is not a paladin sucks, any samurai who is not a paladin sucks, any spellweaving archer or sampire who is not a paladin sucks.

2) But chivalry is not overpowered.

Reconcile these two statements.

 

[Riba1dry]

No really Connor, I see this falling off the first page so I'll bump it, do explain this for me.

A dexxer can go without necromancy and be perfectly viable in high-end PVM, as in the case of all those chiv archers. The skill provides benefits if you have it, but you're not an idiot if you choose to go with something else.

A dexxer can go without ninjitsu and be perfectly viable in high-end PVM, as in the case of chiv archers and sampires. The skill provides certain utilities if you choose to make use of it, but again it's hardly required.

A dexxer can certainly go without spellweaving and be perfectly viable in high-end PVM, as in the case of everything but some oddball high-mana builds. It's not useless, but it's far from overpowered.

And so on down the line. Bushido is pretty ubiquitous, but then bushido has already been given a number of alterations over the years to make high skill levels desirable anyway.

All of these skills you might have, or you might not have, and if you have them they're probably at GM level or higher.

But not chivalry. Failing to have chivalry is to "deliberately limit" yourself, to use your own words. If you don't have chivalry you should STFU and accept being behind everyone else who does, right?

And yet, chivalry is not overpowered compared to all that other stuff, and "Paladins Online" cracks are unwarranted even though you just basically said every warrior needs to be a paladin or be a gimp.

I want to see the mental and lignuistic gymnastics required to reconcile this.