Chivalry overpowered in PVM.

[Farsight]

I disagree with the statement "It's not as useful in other areas (dealing with spawn, crowd control, survivability)." But I only disagree in one particular situation. Used with archery, chivalry makes one deadly against crowds and with 4 faster casting (3 in the case of an archer), it increases survivability a lot.

That brings up the point that hasn't really been made yet: Chivalry by itself isn't really overpowered. Chivalry in combination with other skills (most notably bushido and archery or bushido and necromancy) creates some of the most deadly combinations in PvM.

But question I have is, even though you can hit like a truck, are you really overpowered in PvM?

My own most commonly used characters are an ABC (archery bushido chivalry), a samurai swordsman, a spellweaving/wrestle/mage, a spellweaving/mage/tamer and a necro/tamer with only 80 taming (hunts with bake kitsune, 80 taming is to bond the bakes and not feel like I'm exploiting). In the right situation, every one of those characters is very powerful. In fact, the necro-tamer out damages every one of those other templates when fighting against groups, but dies a lot more often. The mage/tamer with a greater dragon (I prefer beetle/bake) just doesn't die. I usually tell my friends, "I'm going to go do something relaxing. I'm going to watch my dragon kill things." My swordsman could easily out-damage my archer if he didn't have to run away to heal every once in a while. So based on my personal experience, it isn't chivalry that's overpowered in PvM, but rather EVERYTHING that's overpowered in PvM. Or more to the point:

Player > AI

But that's just my experience.

 

[Harlequin]

I disagree with the statement "It's not as useful in other areas (dealing with spawn, crowd control, survivability)." But I only disagree in one particular situation. Used with archery, chivalry makes one deadly against crowds and with 4 faster casting (3 in the case of an archer), it increases survivability a lot.

That brings up the point that hasn't really been made yet: Chivalry by itself isn't really overpowered. Chivalry in combination with other skills (most notably bushido and archery or bushido and necromancy) creates some of the most deadly combinations in PvM.

But question I have is, even though you can hit like a truck, are you really overpowered in PvM?

My own most commonly used characters are an ABC (archery bushido chivalry), a samurai swordsman, a spellweaving/wrestle/mage, a spellweaving/mage/tamer and a necro/tamer with only 80 taming (hunts with bake kitsune, 80 taming is to bond the bakes and not feel like I'm exploiting). In the right situation, every one of those characters is very powerful. In fact, the necro-tamer out damages every one of those other templates when fighting against groups, but dies a lot more often. The mage/tamer with a greater dragon (I prefer beetle/bake) just doesn't die. I usually tell my friends, "I'm going to go do something relaxing. I'm going to watch my dragon kill things." My swordsman could easily out-damage my archer if he didn't have to run away to heal every once in a while. So based on my personal experience, it isn't chivalry that's overpowered in PvM, but rather EVERYTHING that's overpowered in PvM. Or more to the point:

Player > AI

But that's just my experience.

Well said. To clarify, I was thinking of different templates that are better equiped than chiv in the following scenarios:

1) dealing with spawn - necro excels at the lesser champion spawns due to laregely to wither. Holy light doesn't do as much damage and you don't have the wraith form equivalent to leech mana back. Well, unless it's a warrior using a whirlwind life leech weapon. The necro has a range benefit, but the whirlwind warrior has a combined offense/defence benefit.

2) crowd control - bards are best for this, with peace and provoke. Paladins' dispel evil doesn't work nearly as well.

3) survivability - bushido (evasion) and ninjitsu (mirror images) really have a distinct advantage here. The paladin does not have any equivalent spells to boost DCI, their main defense here is basically a good offense (anyone remember autoduel?), by killing the mob as quickly as possible.

Thus each skill has a different area that it truly excels in and does better than any other skill.

You want a tank that can do maxed out damage? Sacrifice resist/healing and use bushido/chiv.
You want to die as little as possible? Drop chiv and add ninjitsu.
You expect to use that template for necro casting mobs? Remove ninjitsu and add resist.
You have crappy equipment and want to worry less about life/mana leeching? Drop bushido and add necro.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Lord Onslaught]

I use 65 Chivalry, the only thing I can't do with that is Holy Light.

 

[Uvtha]

The only thing that makes it overpowered is all you need is 60 skill.

 

[Ravahan]

I suppose you're right. Chiv is highly specialized in that single target damage output, excepting Holy Light, but that is kind of weak and definatly unreliable at the level most people take Chiv to. It makes me think of a D&D character I made. My wife was DMing, and I obliterated this one enemy. She got upset, because she thought I'd made a grossly overpowered character, but in reality I'd just made a very highly specialized character depending on fients and precision damage, which many things are immune to. Against such monsters, I'm almost completely useless, while against monsters/npcs which can be feinted AND can take precision damage I can do several times the normal damage output for a character of that level. (for you D&D guys, its a geshalt campaign. Combo is shadow-hand style sword sage, rogue, swashbuckler, and invisible blade. I got REALLY good stat rolls).

When you look at it like that, I suppose Chiv isn't so grossly overpowered however... Many times in traditional UO farming, you are doing 1v1 with a monster. I'm still getting used to how much things have changed... But its seeming like people are farming now not for gold, but specifically for drops as Bags of Sending got ubernerfed. With that being the case, perhaps the old 1v1 PvM style is out dated, and if that's the case perhaps chiv is, as some have suggested, a bit underpowered... And perhaps those nice additions at higher level Chivalry would be more appropriate than any kind of nerf or DI cap.

Harlequin! You have swayed me with the strength of your great justice! /cheesyanime

 

[Ribaldry]

Pointing out that chivalry is specialized to deal astronomical damage to a single target would be more compelling if all the best stuff in UO didn't drop from individual bosses. And if getting a reward weren't dependent upon doing enough damage.

Pointing out that necromancy is somewhat better suited to mowing down all the worthless slimes and ratmen (or whatever) prior to the champ isn't exactly compelling in light of that.

Claiming that chivalry is underpowered is pure "god mode please" lobbying.

 

[Harlequin]

Pointing out that chivalry is specialized to deal astronomical damage to a single target would be more compelling if all the best stuff in UO didn't drop from individual bosses. And if getting a reward weren't dependent upon doing enough damage.

Pointing out that necromancy is somewhat better suited to mowing down all the worthless slimes and ratmen (or whatever) prior to the champ isn't exactly compelling in light of that.

Claiming that chivalry is underpowered is pure "god mode please" lobbying.

True, most of the better stuff like arties/ps drop from individual mobs/bosses. Doing more damage is very advantageous to get oneself into the arty/ps drop eligibility list.

This is less so for peerless, since any arties/crimmy etc have to be looted off a randomly instanced corpse instead of dropping directly in your backpack. Plus, from the way corpses are instanced, it's difficult to do enough damage to get a bigger share of the loot if 16+ players were all attacking the boss.

Alot of the times, the highest damagers get the same amount of loot as the the lowest damagers.

Before I go further, do you consider all spells in chiv to be overpowered, or only specific ones?

May I also know what template you are using? I am guessing that there's some advantages it has that chiv cannot give you, something you definitely prefer over chiv and more suitable to your own playstyle right?

 

[Ribaldry]

This is less so for peerless, since any arties/crimmy etc have to be looted off a randomly instanced corpse instead of dropping directly in your backpack.

Of course greater amounts of damage allow them to be killed more quickly and by smaller groups of people, making chivalry a superior choice even if doing more damage does not directly affect drop rates.

Plus, from the way corpses are instanced, it's difficult to do enough damage to get a bigger share of the loot if 16+ players were all attacking the boss.

If there are more than 16 people hammering away on a boss, some of them are going to get no loot at all. Adding ninjitsu so you can die less often, or necromancy so you can wither the trash spawn at champs, aren't going to help you avoid being that unlucky 17th guy. Adding chivalry so that you can do vastly more damage will.

Before I go further, do you consider all spells in chiv to be overpowered, or only specific ones?

Of course not all spells in chivalry are overpowered. It's not even that any one particular spell is overpowered. Rather it's the way everything stacks and the fact that there's pretty much no reason not to have it on any given weapon-based template.

May I also know what template you are using? I am guessing that there's some advantages it has that chiv cannot give you, something you definitely prefer over chiv and more suitable to your own playstyle right?

I have a better idea. Describe any melee or archer template that will NOT be more suitable for gaining high-end rewards after I trim 70 points off of it somewhere and add chivalry.

 

[hen]

Sounds like I should drop focus for chivalry.

 

[Harlequin]

This is less so for peerless, since any arties/crimmy etc have to be looted off a randomly instanced corpse instead of dropping directly in your backpack.

Of course greater amounts of damage allow them to be killed more quickly and by smaller groups of people, making chivalry a superior choice even if doing more damage does not directly affect drop rates.

Yes, that's a good point. Higher damage output is definitely advantageous. And chivalry is a good way to stack 50% more DI. Though just getting an extra 50% DI doesn't automatically mean that chiv is overpowered, you can also get 50% DI from wearing a couple of arties, eg storm grip. Weapons can come with 50% DI, but no one would think that same 50% DI on items is overpowered.

But wait chiv is a skill, not an item, surely it's different.

Plus, from the way corpses are instanced, it's difficult to do enough damage to get a bigger share of the loot if 16+ players were all attacking the boss.

If there are more than 16 people hammering away on a boss, some of them are going to get no loot at all. Adding ninjitsu so you can die less often, or necromancy so you can wither the trash spawn at champs, aren't going to help you avoid being that unlucky 17th guy. Adding chivalry so that you can do vastly more damage will.

Right again. High damage output is very advantageous. But if don't survive, or can't leech enough life/mana back, you'll be forced to disengage and get healed/rezzed.

Depending on how quickly you recover (whether if you have friends to rez you, or if you need to hunt down the minion that looted your stuff etc), the extra 50% of damage that can be dealt every swing may not be sufficient to cover the lost time. Whoever that managed to kept themselves alive will have an advantage over you if you died, yes?

So maxing out offense at the expense of defense can be considered a gamble, yes? You are hoping that you won't die. You come out tops if you win, but may lose out big if you are unlucky.

But wait, what if there are no minions around the boss? Surely then it's a skill that gives me 50% DI without penalties.

Before I go further, do you consider all spells in chiv to be overpowered, or only specific ones?

Of course not all spells in chivalry are overpowered. It's not even that any one particular spell is overpowered. Rather it's the way everything stacks and the fact that there's pretty much no reason not to have it on any given weapon-based template.

Exactly! I am happy that you too have also looked at this thoroughly and see that it's not a matter of simply overpowered spells, it's rather how the DI stacks together. And no doubt about it, it really complements a warrior's weaponskill very well, more than a mage. That's what chiv was designed for - warriors, I can't begrudge a skill designed for warriors for having helpful abilities for warriors.

But wait, surely as a skill, the 50% DI from EoO is excessive.

May I also know what template you are using? I am guessing that there's some advantages it has that chiv cannot give you, something you definitely prefer over chiv and more suitable to your own playstyle right?

I have a better idea. Describe any melee or archer template that will NOT be more suitable for gaining high-end rewards after I trim 70 points off of it somewhere and add chivalry.

I believe you mean describing a template that WILL be even more suitable for high-end rewards instead. A skill that at 70 points will allow you to do more damage than the 50% DI that chiv can. That's one of the reason I was asking for your template. Without that, I can do this:


There is in reality, is a skill that will allow you to do 140% more damage.

That's almost 3 times more than EoO's 50% DI.

It uses 0 mana.

It's like a bushido stance that you have active all the time, no time limit.

There are power scrolls to bring it to 120.

There is no penalty to use it, no extra damage from other monsters, no karma hits, no consumables required (poison potions, shurikens etc etc)

This skill is called "Tactics".

I'm not joking about the 140% more DI. See http://uo.stratics.com/content/skills/tactics.shtml for damage with 0 tactics (50% base damage) and at 70 tactics (120% base damage). A person with 70 tactics does 240% of the damage that the 0 tactics person does. That's a 140% more.

It's a skill. It allows you even more DI that is stackable with DI from your other equipment. In fact, it's not considered DI, it raises your base damage. Why does no one consider this overpowered?

Because it's assumed that all warriors that want decent damage output should have tactics?

But there are warriors that run without tactics, similarly, there are warriors that run without chiv.

Why don't they spare a thought for how overpowered it makes someone with 70% tactics compared to someone without tactics?



Yes, I know it's probably not what you meant, and it's kind of a cheap blow. I just wanted to illustrate that being overpowering not just about damage output and being able to kill bosses faster. It needs to be looked at in its entirety. Overpowered is when the 50% DI is boosted to 300%. Or if it doesn't use mana. Or if it doesn't have penalties.

In truth, to properly answer you to, I refer to what I have said in an earlier post, Chiv excels in damage output. Tactics aside, there's no other 70 skill points that will grant you the ability to kill the boss faster. But depending on your weapon and play style, ninjitsu might be worth considering.

At 70 ninjitsu, you can:
1) cast mirror image,
2) use focus attack (double your weapon's DI and leech, if you have a solid weapon, that's 100% DI, 100% life leech, 100% mana leech, 100% stamina leech, 100% hit fire area),
3) use dog form to increase regen rates,
4) snake/frog form to poison opponents everytime you hit them
5) ostard form to run away should your mount die

If you have hiding as well, 70 ninjitsu allows you to use a smoke bomb.

That's alot of survivability there. I know it's cliche'd but it really depends on your play style. Do you want to play it safe (slow and steady without dying), or do you want to go all out (live fast die young and hope you kill the boss before he kills you)?

 

[daisuke]

in my opinion chiv is completely useless. carry a balanced or one handed weapon and use potions and recall scrolls, those skill points can be better used elsewhere. my archer is 120 anat, 120 bush, 100+20 arch, 100 heal, 80 focus, 80+15 resist and 120 tactics. i traded 80 chiv for 80 resist, i'd never go back. frees up the casting and lets you use far more powerful jewlery (that resillient bracer is the best non casting jewel in the game!). to me if anything chivalry is under powered. if you take it to 120 your holy light rocks but thats so many skill points wasted for an aoe. the cure spells sucks, it breaks your current target and does damage to you. you can spam cure pots with no delay and they dont break your targeting. plus with chiv you have to watch your karma or your remove curse doesnt work if you drop to +3 karma or below lol. chivalry gets my most useless magic award !!

 

[WarUltima]

Harlequin

You have many flaws in your argument. And you are giving out false information on how Chiv spells work. You can type long paragraph of argument doesnt automatically mean the game works the way "you think".

First of all EoO gives you 50% DI thats also affected by the 300% is correct. BUT that's not the point. EoO makes it 50% easier to reach that 300% DI cap.

Secondly, judging by your posts you do not know how DI works, and sorry to say... you have no idea how it works completely. The DI that came from Tactics, Anatomy and Lumberjacking does NOT count towards the 300 DI Cap. Meaning a warrior with anatomy/tactics hitting at 300% DI will ALWAYS hit harder than another dexers missing anatomy/tactics or both at 300% DI cap.

The ONLY things thats affected by the 300DI cap are, DI from equipments, DI from perfection, DI from slayer talisman, DI from EoO and DI from slayer weapon. What does this mean? It means from all these mentioned above it's possible to gain up to 450DI ON TOP OF ANY DI YOU GET FROM HAVING TACTICS, JUMBERJACKING AND ANATOMY. Of course that 450di is then capped at 300di PLUS ANY DI GAINED FROM TACTICS, ANATOMY and in some rare cases LJ bonus DI. Please remember, if you have lower anatomy/tactics at 300cap DI you will ALWAYS hit less than the warrior with them at the SAME 300DI. Do you understand how the system works now? Please understand. My English might be worse than you but I know EXACTLY how the game I play works.

Chiv is very powerful, even at merely 60 points. Thats why I have it on ALL my dexers. I am not asking that it should be changed. But I just cant handle such long paragraphs in one post that gives out so many holes and false information.

Thank you for reading my broken English.

 

[Harlequin]

Harlequin

You have many flaws in your argument. And you are giving out false information on how Chiv spells work. You can type long paragraph of argument doesnt automatically mean the game works the way "you think".

First of all EoO gives you 50% DI thats also affected by the 300% is correct. BUT that's not the point. EoO makes it 50% easier to reach that 300% DI cap.

Secondly, judging by your posts you do not know how DI works, and sorry to say... you have no idea how it works completely. The DI that came from Tactics, Anatomy and Lumberjacking does NOT count towards the 300 DI Cap. Meaning a warrior with anatomy/tactics hitting at 300% DI will ALWAYS hit harder than another dexers missing anatomy/tactics or both at 300% DI cap.

The ONLY things thats affected by the 300DI cap are, DI from equipments, DI from perfection, DI from slayer talisman, DI from EoO and DI from slayer weapon. What does this mean? It means from all these mentioned above it's possible to gain up to 450DI ON TOP OF ANY DI YOU GET FROM HAVING TACTICS, JUMBERJACKING AND ANATOMY. Of course that 450di is then capped at 300di PLUS ANY DI GAINED FROM TACTICS, ANATOMY and in some rare cases LJ bonus DI. Please remember, if you have lower anatomy/tactics at 300cap DI you will ALWAYS hit less than the warrior with them at the SAME 300DI. Do you understand how the system works now? Please understand. My English might be worse than you but I know EXACTLY how the game I play works.

Chiv is very powerful, even at merely 60 points. Thats why I have it on ALL my dexers. I am not asking that it should be changed. But I just cant handle such long paragraphs in one post that gives out so many holes and false information.

Thank you for reading my broken English.

Your English is perfectly fine and not broken at all I apologize for my long posts, I seem to have a bad habit of raving on (I normally type something halfway then always get interrupted by work and continue haphazardly where I left off). And yes, by no means typing long paragraphs mean that I am correct. I been wrong many times heh. Extra disclaimer - except where I posted links to the stratics pages, everything is my opinion/views.

Yes, I know tactics is not considered as the portion of DI that can be capped at 300%. I am using it to make a comparison on having high damage output doesn't neccessarily mean that something is overpowered.

Regarding the Tactics not really being DI - quoted from the last couple of paragraphs:

"It's a skill. It allows you even more DI that is stackable with DI from your other equipment. In fact, it's not considered DI, it raises your base damage."

I hope that clears things up a bit.

 

[Ribaldry]

Yes, that's a good point. Higher damage output is definitely advantageous. And chivalry is a good way to stack 50% more DI. Though just getting an extra 50% DI doesn't automatically mean that chiv is overpowered, you can also get 50% DI from wearing a couple of arties, eg storm grip. Weapons can come with 50% DI, but no one would think that same 50% DI on items is overpowered.

Sophistry. The damage increase property found on items is calculated as a proportion of weapon base damage. Meanwhile the damage increase from enemy of one is calculated as a proportion of actual damage inflicted. Both may be "fifty percent" but they are fifty percent of two entirely different things.

Example, using this calculator to figure out how much a weapon does with tactics and anatomy factored in, and this calculator to figure out how much damage that adds up to against a particular creature.

Pete the warrior has GM tactics, GM anatomy, and 100 strength. He decides he's going to go take a swing at a Dark Father and see how much damage he can do. He has two weapons: A plain NPC war mace, and a war mace with 50% damage increase. Additionally, he will try hitting the Dark Father with and without the chivalry skill.

Plain war mace, no chivalry
Base damage listed on weapon: 16 - 17
Damage against zero physical resist: 41 - 43
Damage against the Dark Father: 29 - 30

50% DI war mace, no chivalry
Base damage listed on weapon: 16 - 17
Damage against zero physical resist: 49 - 52
Damage against the Dark Father: 34 - 36

Pete's damage against zero resist has increased by only 8-9, which is 50% of the base damage listed on the tooltip for his weapon. Thanks to the Dark Father's physical resist, the increase in actual damage output is even lower.

Plain war mace again, Enemy of One in effect
Damage against the Dark Father: 43 - 45

Pete started out hitting the DF for a max of 30. Having 50% DI brought that up to 36. But using Enemy of One has brought it all the way up to 45 even with no DI on the weapon at all. Enemy of one is providing him over twice as much benefit as the 50% DI item property. Okay, but let's say Pete goes out and buys some jewels with DI on them and manages to bring his total DI via items up to 100%, which is the cap on that item property. Now let's see how he does.

100% DI war mace and jewels, no chivalry
Damage against the Dark Father: 40 - 42

Woops, he may as well have taken all the money he spent on a weapon and jewelry to get to the DI cap and blown it on fish steaks, because he could just cast Enemy of One and hit harder than that with any crappy mace bought from an NPC for 21 gold! That one spell BY ITSELF is more powerful than the entire Damage Increase item property even at it's cap!

Wait, actually, cancel the fish steaks. He can just use that DI gear plus Enemy of One, plus Consecrate Weapon to do ludicrous damage that no one else has a ghost of a chance of keeping up with, leaving aside your bizzare fantasies about a guy with 70 ninjitsu using Focus Attack to kill bosses.

Nope, you've convinced me to run the numbers and I take it back. There IS a grossly overpowered spell in the form of Enemy of One. It's clear that the drawback of taking additional damage from other creatures is totally insufficient as, again, you can barely find a PVM dexer who doesn't have chivalry. In a typical Doom Gauntlet scenario they can just chug an invisibility potion and take a couple seconds to let the other crap aggro on some tamer's pet.

But wait chiv is a skill, not an item, surely it's different.

It is, it really is.

Why don't they spare a thought for how overpowered it makes someone with 70% tactics compared to someone without tactics?

Hey Draconi, whoever, if you guys intended chivalry to be a core melee skill like tactics is, then never mind. Everything is fine. If you actually intend for all of your warriors to be paladins, and all of the samurai to be paladins, and even all of your NECROMANCERS TO ALSO BE PALADINS, then I guess everything is balanced after all.

Of course, I doubt such is the case.

 

[WarUltima]

I understand what you are saying.
I always thought that EoO gives 50% DI ONLY
In the reality it just seemed to be much more. I dont know if slayer weapon gives 100 DI or does it work like old days which simply DOUBLES your final dmg and still count as 100 DI. If it really doubles that just made EoO THAT much better as you receive double 50% di bonus from it.
That's the part I am not sure about.

 

[Harlequin]

Sophistry. The damage increase property found on items is calculated as a proportion of weapon base damage. Meanwhile the damage increase from enemy of one is calculated as a proportion of actual damage inflicted. Both may be "fifty percent" but they are fifty percent of two entirely different things.

Example, using this calculator to figure out how much a weapon does with tactics and anatomy factored in, and this calculator to figure out how much damage that adds up to against a particular creature.

Pete the warrior has GM tactics, GM anatomy, and 100 strength. He decides he's going to go take a swing at a Dark Father and see how much damage he can do. He has two weapons: A plain NPC war mace, and a war mace with 50% damage increase. Additionally, he will try hitting the Dark Father with and without the chivalry skill.

Plain war mace, no chivalry
Base damage listed on weapon: 16 - 17
Damage against zero physical resist: 41 - 43
Damage against the Dark Father: 29 - 30

50% DI war mace, no chivalry
Base damage listed on weapon: 16 - 17
Damage against zero physical resist: 49 - 52
Damage against the Dark Father: 34 - 36

Pete's damage against zero resist has increased by only 8-9, which is 50% of the base damage listed on the tooltip for his weapon. Thanks to the Dark Father's physical resist, the increase in actual damage output is even lower.

Plain war mace again, Enemy of One in effect
Damage against the Dark Father: 43 - 45

Pete started out hitting the DF for a max of 30. Having 50% DI brought that up to 36. But using Enemy of One has brought it all the way up to 45 even with no DI on the weapon at all. Enemy of one is providing him over twice as much benefit as the 50% DI item property. Okay, but let's say Pete goes out and buys some jewels with DI on them and manages to bring his total DI via items up to 100%, which is the cap on that item property. Now let's see how he does.

100% DI war mace and jewels, no chivalry
Damage against the Dark Father: 40 - 42

Woops, he may as well have taken all the money he spent on a weapon and jewelry to get to the DI cap and blown it on fish steaks, because he could just cast Enemy of One and hit harder than that with any crappy mace bought from an NPC for 21 gold! That one spell BY ITSELF is more powerful than the entire Damage Increase item property even at it's cap!

Actually, your numbers seem to be off. At 100% DI, damage you are doing is 48 - 51. Against the DF's resists, it works out to be 34 - 36

At 0% DI, your damage is 32-34. Adding EoO against the DF, it also works out to be 34 -36. Try running your numbers again to see if it matches mine.

That's actually quite interesting - it appears that EoO is actually giving a 100% DI. I did a search and found this FoF: http://www.uo.com/fof/fiveonfriday63.html

"If I have 300% DI and I cast Enemy of One will I even do more damage?"

If you already 300% Damage Increase from special moves and profession abilities, then the answer is no, Enemy of One will not increase your damage further.

Note: that a slayer weapon is double damage (a 200 damage rating). Enemy of One has a rating of 100. The combination of those two alone would reach our cap of 300.

So slayers count as 200% against the 300% cap, and EoO counts as 100%. Meaning if you use a slayer and EoO, the DI from any weapon or equipment is superflous.

If you already have 50% DI on your slayer weapon, you just need another 50% from jewels (maybe 25% from storm grip plus a 25 DI ring) and EoO is redundant!

Wait, actually, cancel the fish steaks. He can just use that DI gear plus Enemy of One, plus Consecrate Weapon to do ludicrous damage that no one else has a ghost of a chance of keeping up with, leaving aside your bizzare fantasies about a guy with 70 ninjitsu using Focus Attack to kill bosses.

I have all along agreed that Chiv excels at damage output. This what it is meant to do. I even said that again when I sugested ninjitsu as an alternative which although doesn't excel at damage output, is apt at keeping you alive. Instant hide opposed to 2 sec-delay invis potion aside, it has other "benefits" which I have also recently learned...

On conc weapon, most bosses actually have similar resists across the board. DF have straight 30s in all resists...

Nope, you've convinced me to run the numbers and I take it back. There IS a grossly overpowered spell in the form of Enemy of One. It's clear that the drawback of taking additional damage from other creatures is totally insufficient as, again, you can barely find a PVM dexer who doesn't have chivalry. In a typical Doom Gauntlet scenario they can just chug an invisibility potion and take a couple seconds to let the other crap aggro on some tamer's pet.

Actually, after I have run the numbers, I think the opposite, it's not as useful as I thought... If you don't know what I mean, then nm.

Hey Draconi, whoever, if you guys intended chivalry to be a core melee skill like tactics is, then never mind. Everything is fine. If you actually intend for all of your warriors to be paladins, and all of the samurai to be paladins, and even all of your NECROMANCERS TO ALSO BE PALADINS, then I guess everything is balanced after all.

Of course, I doubt such is the case.

That's the beauty of UO, you can mix and match any skills you want. You can choose not to have tactics (or anatomy or lumberjack or chivalry). But don't expect to out damage folks that sacrificed other skills to have it. Instead, you most likely will be able to do other stuff better. It's not fair to want to keep you advantage and hope that the advantage of other templates get nerfed.

My final advise - you seem like a very smart person and I am confident that you can overcome the advantages that chiv grants very easily.

 

[Limlight]

Whoa there, let's take a deeper look at chiv and magery at 70 and compare apples to apples.

Your answers were completely bias and ignored many things.

1) close wounds
The equivalent in magery is heal/g.heal. All can be cast at 100% success at 70 skill. Close wound restores 4-24 damage, mini heal restores 8-10 damage, g.heal restores 29-38 damage. Is close wound overpowered? Nope.

You can cast Close Wounds with a weapon equipped. Mages cannot unless it go exact mods to match your suit. Mages need a LRC suit or regs to cast it...which affects their suit and the mods they need. You simply need gold.

If they are equal then you wouldnt mind Chivalry requiring reagants now and spells needing gold. But you wouldnt switch that out would you as your suit can use other mods.
Yes, its overpowered because you get 4 FC.

2) cleanse by fire
The equivalent in magery is cure/arch cure. All can be cast at 100% success at 70 skill. Is clean by fire overpowered? Nope.

You are correct on this one.

3) remove curse
No beneficial equivalent in magery, but it does have the reverse - clumsy, feeblemind, weaken, curse and mass curse. Since remove curse counters the above spells, we'll compare that. Success rate for mass curse is 80% at 70 skill. Otherwise all the rest of the spells can be cast at 100% success. Is remove curse overpowered? Nope.

Key point you are ignoring. If I cast Feeblemind, Weaken, Curse, Clumsy, Blood Oath, Strangle on you...one Remove Curse removes all of that.
Not overpowered? Wow, bias much?
Mages have absolutely 0 equivalent spell and to try and use attacking spells as an example is stupid.
Again I say...1 Remove Curse can remove 6+ spells with 1 cast.
Seriously, all I had to read was this explanation to see how bias/blind you are.

4) consecrate weap
No equivalent in magery that requires a weapon to cause more damage. But for causing different kind of elemental damage without weapons - mages have magic arrow, harm, fireball, poison, lightning, mindblast(80%), energy bolt(45%), flamestrike (10%). Besides those in brackets, the rest of the spells can be cast at 100% success. Is consecrate weap overpowered? Nope.

Magic Arrow, Harm, Fireball.etc are all attack spells. They are our weapon. Your weapon is exactly that...your weapon. Mages dont have any spell that makes their spells do more damage. So yes...its severely overpowered. You also only have to cast 1 macro and bam...you got the weakness to the monster. Mages have to cast the same spell over and over...
Seriously, how do you convince yourself its not overpowered?
What Mages attempts a damage spell that might fizzle? I dont know any mages who will spam Flamestrike when they have a 10% chance in PVP or PVM.

5) sacred journey
The equivalent in magery is recall. Both can be cast at 100% success at 70 skill. Is sacred journey overpowered? Nope

.

Agreed. I dont mind them having a traveling spell.

6) divine fury
No equivalent in magery that restores stamina, but stamina potions does the same thing (in theory, create food and eating can bring you back to full stam). For spells that affects attack speed, agility and bless will buff dex, which in turn affects swing speed. Perhaps not by as much as divine fury, but no dci penalties.
Besides swing speed, there is also 2 more noteworthy spells that affects casting speed. Protection and arch protection. Instead of increasing the casting speed, it decreases it. However, it makes casting non-interruptable. All can be cast at 100% success at 70 skill. Is divine fury overpowered? Nope.

Agreed here as well. As food recovers stam. But dont use pots as an argument as anyone can use pots and we dont have a spell that creates pots.

7) dispel evil
No equivalent in magery that pushes mobs away from you. However, there are several spells to keep mobs at bay - teleport, wall of stone, fire field, paralyze, energy field. Is dispel evil overpowered? Nope.

Agreed.

8) enemy of one
No equivalent in magery. However, at 70 skill, you'll fizzle just slightly less than a mage casting mark in your earlier example. You can spam enemy of one until you succeed, mages can spam mark until they succeed. Chiv has no equivalent of mark. Is enemy of one overpowered? This is the trickiest one to answer, since its effect is a bit unique, just like mark. Would you consider mark overpowered? Or instead of comparing spells that boost DI, what if we were to consider spells from other classes that allows you to deal greater damage to an opponent - there's the necro's corpse skin and evil omen. Is enemy of one any more overpowered than these 2 spells (they require only 20 skill to cast btw)? Taking into consideration of the minimum skill, I would say no.

You are comparing a spell that does double damage to monsters for a long time period off of one cast to marking a rune? lol...please tell me I didnt just read that. You are right about Corpse Proof and Evil Omen. One problem. You need Spirit Speak for anything Necro to be effective. There is no sub skill for Chivalry needed for anything.

But to be honest...I dont mind this skill as it adds not PvP benefit and it is imo, the pride and joy of Paladins. It should be their go to spell in PVM like EV's are for mages.

9) holy light
The equivalent in magery is earthquake. It's more powerful and has longer range, but to cast it at 70 skill, a mage needs to use a scroll. Then again, at 70 chiv, you'll fizzle holy light like crazy. And it's the weakest AOE spell there is. Is holy light overpowered? Nope.

Yes, this is overpowered. You cant bring up scrolls. Thats the worst argument ever. Dexers should not have an area affect spell...Period.
Also, you tried to compare Earquake and this.
Earthquake costs 50 mana. HL costs 15. lol

10) noble sacrifice
The equivalent in magery is resurrection. Similar to holy light, to cast at 70 skill, a mage needs to use a scroll. Also at 70 chiv, noble sacrifice will fizzle very badly. The minimum skill required is 65. Is noble sacrifice overpowered? Nope.

lol...again with the scrolls. lol...

Lets look at the spells in a PVP aspect. If you and some guildies get killed in a big fight. You all run to a spot. If you are all blue...One cast of the spell could bring up every single person around you. You could be ready to go back and fight within a minute where as a mage would need several minutes to get everyone up. For you to be able to rez 10+ people off one spell is stupid and overpowered. I would be ok with this spell if it was like Vampiric Embrace and 100 Chivalry was required to cast it.

Seriously,
Close Wounds
Remove Curse
Consecrate Weapon
Holy Light
Noble Sacrifice
are all overpowered.

Not only is minimal chivalry needed. But your casting speed is insane and you dont need a subskill.

Close Wounds should have its skill requirement raised.
Remove Curse should only remove 1 curse for every cast.
Consecrate Weapon should have the skill requirement raised.
Holy Light should have the mana and skill requirements raised.
Noble Sacrifice should be raised to 100 minimum skill. With 100% accuracy at 120.

 

[Ribaldry]

Try running your numbers again to see if it matches mine.

Go to the mace fighting calculator and input 100 strength, 100 anatomy, 100 tactics, and 100 damage increase and then scroll down to the war mace and you'll see damage of 57 - 60 listed. Then either input those into the PVM melee damage calculator, or just look up the Dark Father's physical resist and subtract that percentage by hand. I've done both and my numbers add up. I don't know what you're doing.

I have all along agreed that Chiv excels at damage output. This what it is meant to do. I even said that again when I sugested ninjitsu as an alternative which although doesn't excel at damage output, is apt at keeping you alive.

This nonsense needs to stop being repeated. This notion of someone putting hiding, stealth, and ninjitsu on a template for purposes of high-end PVM and having anything but a shadow of chivalry's success at gaining rewards is ludicrous on it's face to anyone who's ever done any high-end PVM in UO at all.

On conc weapon, most bosses actually have similar resists across the board. DF have straight 30s in all resists...

The Dark Father is 30 across the board, but go look up the resists on Flesh Renderers, Barracoon, Lord Oaks, Impalers, and so forth. Most bosses have widely varying resists and more often than not physical resist is their highest, nerfing non-chiv melee even harder.

Actually, after I have run the numbers, I think the opposite, it's not as useful as I thought... If you don't know what I mean, then nm.

So after running the numbers (incorrectly) but still having to admit that it was providing over TWICE the benefit you thought it was, you've decided it's less useful?

That's the beauty of UO, you can mix and match any skills you want. You can choose not to have tactics (or anatomy or lumberjack or chivalry).

Having the choice between being a paladin, a paladin samurai, a paladin archer, a paladin necromancer, or a second-rate newb who gets no loot is the OPPOSITE of template variety. Throwing up nonsense like comparisons to core warrior skills like tactics is just an attempt to muddy the waters. It's blatantly disingenuous.

My final advise - you seem like a very smart person and I am confident that you can overcome the advantages that chiv grants very easily.

You still haven't answered my challenge. Post any melee or archer template without chivalry that will not immediately become better-suited to gaining high-end rewards the moment I trim 70 points off somewhere and put chivalry on it.

 

[Harlequin]

Your answers were completely bias and ignored many things.

I understand your concerns, but before calling others biased and blind, you are viewing this from a PvP angle, yes? The OP's concern was PvM, and my response is in respect to only PvM.

I play both mages and warriors (and other templates like tamers etc) in PvM. My main that I play more has always been my mage. I only started playing a warrior in recent years. Having used the tactics of both, I am hoping to bring the comparison into better light instead of just blandly stating something is overpowered because it does higher damage.

I have iterated at the beginning of each respective spell that have no equivalents these words "No equivalent in magery". They are 2 different skills after all. In these cases, what I try instead, is to find the closest equivalent that I think are the most fair and logical to compare with. I explained that here: http://vboards.stratics.com/showpost.php?p=1114985&postcount=50


Regarding comparing it to mark, it was actually brought up by the OP here: http://vboards.stratics.com/showpost.php?p=1114017&postcount=19

I said it was the trickiest one to answer, since it was unique and there's nothing even remotely similar in magery. So instead, I highlighted that at 70 skill, EoO fizzles half the time too. I had to bring in necro to do a comparison (if it was PvP, having curse lower an opponent's resists might be considered).

For the rest of your statements, I have only 1 thing to say - instead of Chiv being overpowered in PvP, if you compared it with the rest of the PvP skills, don't you think that it's actually magery that's underpowered?

 

[Garen]

In other words Chiv is actually a good skill to have. EA's incompetence over the last ten years has conditioned to react backwards; it's much easier to nerf one skill then to improve others.

 

[Stupid Miner]

How many melee/archers at champs/doom/peerless DON'T have it? Even all the sampires have it. Or at least, it's overpowered compared to any archer/melee template that doesn't have it.

Yes, lets all nerf Melee warriors in PvM, because they just have it way too easy. *rolls eyes*

Seriously, being a melee warrior has NO advantages in PvM over other classes such as mage/bards or tamers. Heck, I took a poll in the warrior's forum and most played melee templates because they were bored of their tamers/archers.

Why on earth (Sosaria) should they nerf a template that has no advantages other than being more interesting and a lot harder to play?

Why would you make a melee character without chivalry? It's like running around without tactics or parrying: you can run without it, but it's really not a good idea.

Melee warriors are handicapped templates to begin with, don't steal the crutches from the crippled guy!

 

[Harlequin]

Go to the mace fighting calculator and input 100 strength, 100 anatomy, 100 tactics, and 100 damage increase and then scroll down to the war mace and you'll see damage of 57 - 60 listed. Then either input those into the PVM melee damage calculator, or just look up the Dark Father's physical resist and subtract that percentage by hand. I've done both and my numbers add up. I don't know what you're doing.

I know why, I did not put in 100 anatomy, apologies. Once anat is added the numbers have a larger discrepency. But that's really interesting. Does reaching the 300% DI cap with EoO mean more damage?

This nonsense needs to stop being repeated. This notion of someone putting hiding, stealth, and ninjitsu on a template for purposes of high-end PVM and having anything but a shadow of chivalry's success at gaining rewards is ludicrous on it's face to anyone who's ever done any high-end PVM in UO at all.

Everytime I stated something like that, I have admitted that chiv has the potential to excel at doing the highest damage. Even a warrior without chiv has the potential to out damage mages and tamers. My point is that this doesn't make them overpowered. It's what they do best.

You might want to do a search on chamion/peerless ninjitsu templates...I am in the midst of training ninjitsu to replace parry. Didn't think about replacing chiv yet, but see below.

The Dark Father is 30 across the board, but go look up the resists on Flesh Renderers, Barracoon, Lord Oaks, Impalers, and so forth. Most bosses have widely varying resists and more often than not physical resist is their highest, nerfing non-chiv melee even harder.



So after running the numbers (incorrectly) but still having to admit that it was providing over TWICE the benefit you thought it was, you've decided it's less useful?

I try to look at things from different sides and strive to be as objective as possible. I am the first person to admit that I have made many mistakes and I readily admit/apologize/remedy when I've made them. Having found that EoO is twice as effective as I thought, and is actually equivalent to 100% DI, I readily posted that. It's actually something new to me, despite having read about the 300% cap all the time.

As to why I decided it's less useful, it's because with that discovery, my warrior can actually run without EoO and easily do the same maxed out 300% damage. This may not be applicable to everyone though. I wear storm grip and the undead slayer totem as part of my gear. I also have slayers with 40% DI. This opens up many possibilities for me.

Having the choice between being a paladin, a paladin samurai, a paladin archer, a paladin necromancer, or a second-rate newb who gets no loot is the OPPOSITE of template variety. Throwing up nonsense like comparisons to core warrior skills like tactics is just an attempt to muddy the waters. It's blatantly disingenuous.

I don't believe that your template is really that bad enough to be considered a 2nd rate newbie that can't get loot. If that is indeed happening, just post your template, many people here including me will see if there's any advice we can give to improve your chances.

Not trying to muddy the waters, I did admit right off the bat that tactics was sort of a cheap shot didn't I? I was trying to illustrate that uber damage doesn't automatically mean something is overpowered.

You still haven't answered my challenge. Post any melee or archer template without chivalry that will not immediately become better-suited to gaining high-end rewards the moment I trim 70 points off somewhere and put chivalry on it.

Ah, but you answer my question on your template with a question instead of giving an answer.

I have on the other hand answered your question as truthfully as I can - I said that "there's no other 70 skill points that will grant you the ability to kill the boss faster."

I even went 1 step further to explain that depending on your playstyle, if you do not want chivalry, an alternative to consider is ninjitsu. It won't excel in damage output like chiv, but provides other benefits depending on how often you die.

 

[Ribaldry]

Yes, lets all nerf Melee warriors in PvM, because they just have it way too easy. *rolls eyes*

Tamers need nerfed even more. They were overpowered even before the devs handed them Greater Dragons for some inexplicable reason. But there have already been about 8933489498948 "nerf tamers" threads.

Damage in general needs nerfing down.

 

[WarUltima]

After little testing eoo is indeed way more powerful than its suggested.
With just eoo and 1 slayer or when I don't have the right slayer perfection and eoo always caps me out at 300di.

There's no doubt that chiv is probably the most cost effective skill uo has in its entire life spam and all you really need is 65 chiv.

But we can leave out the balance issue for pvm. Keep that in pvp.
And tbh if you have a pvm and sometimes pvp dexer without chiv you just nerfed yourself big time. You can deny all you want but I know all my pvm dexer would have at least 60chiv on them. Its just wayyyy tooooo freeeeeaking good for the little bitty skill point investment.

 

[Stupid Miner]

Hey Draconi, whoever, if you guys intended chivalry to be a core melee skill like tactics is, then never mind. Everything is fine. If you actually intend for all of your warriors to be paladins, and all of the samurai to be paladins, and even all of your NECROMANCERS TO ALSO BE PALADINS, then I guess everything is balanced after all.

Of course, I doubt such is the case.

Chivalry is pretty much a requirement, but the answer isn't nerf chivalry. It's boost other warrior skills so that templates without it don't suck.

 

[Ribaldry]

The main problem is that there are two sorts of "damage increase" floating around. One is the item property Damage Increase, which adds a percentage of weapon base damage alone. The other is the effect of EOO/slayers, which add a percentage of total damage after it's been modified by tactics, strength, and anatomy. Enemy of One isn't giving an increase of 100% base damage, it's giving an increase of 50% TOTAL damage, causing Pete to hit the Dark Father for 45 instead of 30.

This is frankly confusing as hell, given that it can inspire a bit of debate even in a forum thread full of veterans, and should not stand. One way or another, one of these two forms of "damage increase" needs to go. The question is, which one? Let's lay out the two scenarios.

Scenario #1: All "damage increase" becomes a percentage of total damage after tactics, anatomy, and other adjustments, the same as the "damage increase" provided slayers and EOO now.

Under this scenario, the Damage Increase item property is buffed substantially and the overall damage inflicted by melee/archery players ramps up dramatically across the board. (Remember, the 300% cap isn't being changed, merely the way the existing percentages are applied.) Instead of 100% DI boosting Pete's maximum damage against the Dark Father to 42, it would boost his max damage to 60.

Enemy of One would kick that max damage against the Dark Father all the way up to 90. That's without a slayer weapon, perfection, or anything else besides 100% DI via items, and the EOO spell. Theoretically he could hit the DF for up to 180 at the 300% DI cap, and remember that our Pete doesn't even have any skills above GM.

In terms of PVP the 100% DI item property currently allows Pete to hit a guy with 70 physical resist for 17-18 damage. Under the change described here, he would suddenly begin hitting for 25-26 damage.

Scenario #2: All "damage increase" becomes a percentage of weapon base damage, the same as the "damage increase" currently provided by the item property.

Most notably, slayer weapons and talismans take it in the butt under this scenario. If you're hitting the Dark Father for 30 with a normal war mace, and 60 with a slayer war mace, then after this change your slayer would only hit him for 47. Enemy of One would also take the nerf very hard. Since it would be providing +50% of weapon base damage, it would always add 8 points to the damage of anyone using a war mace, regardless of anything else.

PVP would of course remain untouched under this scenario.

Conclusions thus far:

Scenario #1 does nothing to bring chivalry damage and other melee damage in line with one another, it merely kicks all damage upwards at the same time. It also messes with PVP, and I'm sure some mage will come in here to tell us that being hit for 8 extra damage by a dexer would ruin the game forever. You could maybe ditch the 300% DI cap and replace it with a generous (but sane) hard cap upon the amount of damage that can be inflicted by any single hit in PVM. That might help.

Scenario #2 has the benefit of leaving PVP alone, but it also has drawbacks. For one, it nerfs all dexers by nerfing slayers. Even if chivalry is brought into line, we all still have to compete with mages and tamers and such. Secondly, this scenario actually nerfs Enemy of One too hard in my opinion. If this scenario were put into action, the Enemy of One spell would actually require buffs to compensate. Ditching the "more damage taken from other creatures" penalty would be a good start, maybe replacing it with a simple "less damage inflicted against other creatures" penalty instead. That makes it a moderately useful damage buff, not some sort of Sword of Damocles hanging over your head ready to either own the boss or get your butt blown off by his minions.

Scenario #3: Because a game developer needs a simple, elegant, and fast solution.

Leave everything like it is. Cut the EOO bonus from 50% of total damage to 30% of total damage. (Or 35%, or 25%, or whatever. That's what testing is for.) Reduce the "take more damage from other creatures" penalty by a proportionate amount to compensate. Nerf god damned tamers (specifically greater dragon damage) already so that everything else doesn't have to be ludicrous to keep up.

PVP is left alone, chivalry is brought into line but not destroyed, and it requires a hell of a lot less coding.

 

[Ribaldry]

Bump for input.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Chivalry came in with the Age of Shadows expansion in February 2003. Six years ago. Ain't it a little late for the complaining?

Six years ago, when Chivalry came in, people said it was useless. Even in PvM, Chivarly can't possibly compete with Necromancy. Get yourself a 100% fire damage bow, Galen. Cast Corpse Skin on your target. Throw a few Strangles and Poison Strikes. Enemy of One, which makes other things do more damage to you, can't possibly compete with what Necromancy has to offer.

Oh well, Galen's just not a Necromancer, you know? I'll stick with Chivalry.

Galen, you role-playing noob. J0o 5uK. (L33t 5peAk of six years ago. I hear the dialect has changed substantially.)

Flash ahead six years. Chivalry has somehow become overpowered.

Is Healing overpowered? Rare is the Warrior template without it since its introduction shortly before I started playing the game in 1999 or so. I guess some templates don't have it. Then again, some templates don't have Chivalry.

How many Warriors do you know use Chivalry and none of the other secondary skills, like Necromancy or Bushido or Spellweaving or Ninjitsu? I can't think of many. How do you know it's not one of those, much younger, skills that's not overpowered?

Bushido has Honor, which doesn't cause other things to do extra damage to you. Chivalry has Enemy of One, which does.

Necromancy and Spellweaving both have means of doing substantial amounts of direct damage. Chivalry has Holy Light, which is of use in 2 situations at most: interrupting spells in PvP, and doing damage to mass amounts of things (basically champ spawns). The actual damage it causes is minimal, and it causes you to flag on everything/everyone in the area that's eligible to get hit.

What's the Chivalry equivalent of Momentum Strike? There ain't one.

Strictly on the merits, Bushido's clearly better. More versatile, less stuff that can both hurt and help you (and more stuff that can only help).

*shrugs*

This post was a waste of time....Those who have their minds made up have their minds made up.

-Galen's player

 

[Ravahan]

Scenario #3: Because a game developer needs a simple, elegant, and fast solution.

Leave everything like it is. Cut the EOO bonus from 50% of total damage to 30% of total damage. (Or 35%, or 25%, or whatever. That's what testing is for.) Reduce the "take more damage from other creatures" penalty by a proportionate amount to compensate. Nerf god damned tamers (specifically greater dragon damage) already so that everything else doesn't have to be ludicrous to keep up.

PVP is left alone, chivalry is brought into line but not destroyed, and it requires a hell of a lot less coding.

I could go for that... But I'd much rather see Chiv have more stuff at high skill levels, or make stuff scale with skill level so that its less tempting to leave it at 65-80.

 

[RichDC]

I would agree, maybe range it like Spell weaving is. So at low levels 60-80 its possible to cast the spells but they wont be fully effective until you hit gm+

I also think that this should be applied to healing and cures rather than solely based on karma.

 

[Ravahan]

Yeah, exactly. Like maybe (just for instance, not meant to be a final implementation suggestion) you start EoO at 30% and scale it to 60% at 120. That way there's a benefit compared to current mechanics, if you invest a lot of skill, or a penalty at lower skills if you keep it as you have it. I agree with Harley in that I'd like to see something equivellent to Vengeful Spirit for Chiv at high levels. Maybe make it level 99, just like Vengeful Spirit.

That being said, Necro is probably more powerful than Chiv if you know how to play it and get the right weapons. The catch? You are negative karma, and thus find yourself getting wtfpwnt by all the good little creatures that don't **** with anyone else. I had a really annoying time running to the Dread Spider spawn north of Spirituality on my necro/macer that can easily take down blood ele's and other things of that calliber last week. I can't go into whatever dungeon that is near Spirit either, because I'll immediately be dead upon zoning in due to the champ spawn with all the para Cu Sides and such... My Assasin got owned in Despise the other day because they put in some crazy angel things en masse that revealed and swarmed him.

Conclusion; There are no benefits and all penalties for being Dread, but the skills that make you evil are so damned cool/powerful it makes it an OK trade off.

I like how Chiv spells duration/hp healed is based on karma. Makes it a lot harder to do hybrid templates that shouldn't be.

 

[Farsight]

Ribaldry, I like that you finally came out with details and possible solutions to the problem you first posed. You have no idea how much it grates on my nerves when someone says "There's a problem, fix it!" without adding further details.

I also like all of your solutions, and if I were designing the game, I would likely go with your solution #2. But there's a drawback. If all damage increases applied to the base damage, then suddenly all of our slayers/DI from items and EoO would be about as useful as damage increase from lumberjacking. On paper, lumberjacking looks as good as anatomy, but due to the way that damage increase is calculated, the benifits of being a lumberjack are far outweighed by the damage increase of anatomy. But it would, in one shot, put all warriors on a damage output that matches a mage. It would make soloing high end creatures a lot more time consuming (but not more difficult), which would pretty much force grouping for high end content.

You did forget option #4 though, which is add on 20-40 points to the base difficulty for consecrate weapon, divine fury and enemy of one. This will encourage the paladins to invest more points into the skills and then make combining the paladin skills with other combat/damage increasing skills much more difficult.

Besides that, just adding 40 points to a value shouldn't (not seeing the code, I can't be certain) be too terribly difficult at all.

Maybe adding your proposal 3 to my proposal 4 would create a good balance between paladins and non-paladin warriors.

Then there is option #5, which they started with the conjurer's trinket, and that is make super slayer talismans for the non-undead creatures. It would instantly put all warriors in the 300% damage range from having double-slayers. But I don't like adding items to compensate for skills and it would unbalance warriors ahead of mages even more than they already are unbalanced.

Anyhow, good ideas Rib, I hope that the powers that be are paying attention.

 

[Harlequin]

Whoa, I get stuck with work for a day and the thread has turned out much better! This is the kind of intelligent discussion that I was hoping for.

Rib, the suggestions on your new post are now much better and presented more objectively with solutions and its pros and cons. I especially like proposal 3 for it's elegance, maybe coupled with Ravahan's scaling. The scaling would work better than making the spells harder to cast I think. It's not exactly a nerf, at higher skill levels, it'll even buff the damage more than what EoO does currently, giving an incentive to reach higher skills in chiv.

I also agree that the DI and EoO damages should be brought more in line. Right now I still don't know if 100% DI + slayer will give me the same output as EoO + slayer.

Galen, I agree with much of what you say except for this:

This post was a waste of time....Those who have their minds made up have their minds made up.
-Galen's player

I don't feel that it's a waste of time at all Ravahan now doesn't think that Chiv is totally overpowered (although the credit goes to him, drawing from his own D&D experience). I'm actually quite intersted in Ravahan's D&D template too, but I'll ask him via pm to avoid going OT.

Lots of other Uhallers may find such info very helpful too, even the ones that don't play warriors. Yet.

Finally and most importantly, I have learned alot myself! Regarding EoO doing more damage than I thought, and that I have been wasting most of my mana/tithing when I use my slayer coupled with the 75% DI items I am already wearing.

Instead of making the spells harding to cast, instead, I think that on top of the scaling descibed, Chiv really can do with couple of new spells at the higher levels, to make it even more enticing to reach higher levels.

 

[RibaIdry]

Chivalry is old. Vampiric Embrace was just as old and it got changed too.

How many Warriors do you know use Chivalry and none of the other secondary skills, like Necromancy or Bushido or Spellweaving or Ninjitsu?

That's right, you can be a paladin, a necro paladin, a samurai paladin, or a spellweaving paladin. All of those are very popular. If you don't want to be a paladin at all... er... uh... well... um... HEY WITHER CAN KILL THOSE GARGOYLES AT THE CHAMP SPAWN REAL WELL. Hope you didn't want any rewards once the champ actually pops though.

Bushido has Honor, which doesn't cause other things to do extra damage to you. Chivalry has Enemy of One, which does.

Bushido has perfection, which only one samurai out of the entire crowd that might be present will be able to use. If someone else honors it first, or it takes any damage before you honor it, or it buffs it's own strength before you honor it, you're plain out of luck. Then that one guy is getting his damage reset every time he happens to whiff a couple times in a row.

Or you can just cast a chivalry spell with a laughably low skill requirement and instantly receive a greater damage bonus than the Damage Increase item property can ever provide, 100% of the time, regardless of what anyone else is doing. The "extra damage from others" clearly isn't balancing this and is, frankly, a boneheaded penalty that I'd like to see removed as soon as EOO is brought in line enough to not equal god mode without it.

The idea of scaling its effectiveness off chivalry skill isn't bad.

I also wouldn't mind seeing it left alone but just kicked up in difficulty to the equivalent of Vampiric Embrace, making it a Grandmaster Paladin perk only, and not a cheap super damage increase for every ninja/paladin/necro/sammy out there.

 

[Bara]

How many melee/archers at champs/doom/peerless DON'T have it? Even all the sampires have it. Or at least, it's overpowered compared to any archer/melee template that doesn't have it.

Eval is overpowered in PVM. How many mages at champs/doom/peerless DON'T have it?

Tactics is overpowered in PVM. How many melee/archers at champs/doom/peerless DON'T have it?

I could keep on doing this.

A mage, by nature, is capable of attacking an enemies lowest resistance at whim. Warriors have no way of doing this outside of carrying an arsenal of weapons. Concecrate gives them a chance of doing this at the cost of mana and skill points.

Divine fury is a small boon that gives warriors a slight boost in offense while balancing with a defensive weakness.

Enemy of one is very powerful, but also very dangerous to use outside of certain situations.

These are the big three of chilvary. I'm not seeing a problem.

If they want to change chilvary, to give a reason to get to 120, then I believe they should do so through the introduction of a new, high level spell or ability.

 

[Ravahan]

Well gosh, Harley, you're gonna make me blush!

I think that some very posetive ideas have come out of this thread. My thanks to the OP for puttin' it up.

 

[Limlight]

For the rest of your statements, I have only 1 thing to say - instead of Chiv being overpowered in PvP, if you compared it with the rest of the PvP skills, don't you think that it's actually magery that's underpowered?

No, its average.

Magery needs Eval
Necro needs SS
Weapons Skills need Tactics
Bushido needs Parrying
Heck, even Smiths/Tailors need Arms Lore

Chiv needs nothing...and to top it off...it only needs like 75 in its skill to be completely effective.

 

[Green Meanie]

I can agree that chiv is a lil over powered but only a lil as said by other ppl most its effects can be gained by other means but that would make UO players less lazy

i agree that chiv needs farther scaled with skill. But as an fyi to thoughs that dont know chivs cure is already completly based on skill at 55 chiv it takes 10 casts to remove leathal poison and at 120 it never fails the only part of that thats based off karma is how much damage the fire part of it does

 

[Jirel of Joiry]

I agree Chiv is overdue for a major NERF! That said please don't make my GM Chiv worthless because I've work very hard to build my 110 swords-100chiv-100 focus-100 mage resist- 100 tactics-100 healing and 100 anatomy warrior I would like to go 120 swords eventually. Those of us that have fully developed our characters shouldn't be punished because of a bunch of lazy gimps taking advantage of system.

 

[RibaIdry]

Tactics is overpowered in PVM. How many melee/archers at champs/doom/peerless DON'T have it?

Sure, we should just rename the game Paladins Online though, since you apparently think it's fine for Chivalry to be a required core skill of every single warrior in the game, same as tactics.

When every single samurai and necromancer and warrior in UO has to also be a paladin, that's cool and means Chivalry is totally balanced.

Why didn't I think of that?

 

[Nystul]

Who needs chivalry?

Bushido + honor + stacked damage inc & slayers from items gives the same result. Hell if I'm fightning something that I have a slayer for I don't bother even using enemy of one because honor, + slayer, + DI puts me at my cap alone.

 

[RibaIdry]

So instead of just using chivalry, you use Bushido (presumably more than 70) and that whole list of stuff just to equal it. Oh wait, sometimes you "don't bother" with Enemy of One. That means that even though you have all that other stuff at your disposal, you don't go without chivalry on your template either. Thought so.

I rest my case.

 

[WarUltima]

So instead of just using chivalry, you use Bushido (presumably more than 70) and that whole list of stuff just to equal it. Oh wait, sometimes you "don't bother" with Enemy of One. That means that even though you have all that other stuff at your disposal, you don't go without chivalry on your template either. Thought so.

I rest my case.

This is true. Most pvm dexers have chiv on top of [insert any skill here].

1. Cons Weapon means I dont have to carry 5 different 100% elemental weapons (with all super slayers in each element you thats hmm at least 30 weapons) Cons Weapon makes your weapon at 100% efficiency INSTANT ON THE FLY.

2. EoO... what if my super weapon isnt a slayer? EoO takes care of most situation INSTANTLY ON THE FLY SWITCH ANYTIME and I still get to use my super weapon, not some ****ty slayer with no good mods.

WoW so nice must need a lot of skill points investment... yes the whole 60 point is sufficient.

Wait, perfection gives 100% DI thats assuming you never miss. And other than some stronger mobs you dont even get to make 10 hits before it dies thus NOT INSTANT. And you have to target each slimes/ratmans you are going to kill individually over and over....

Sacred Journey... how do I cast it with bushido?

Close Wound up to 4/6 casting nearly instant up to 39 dmg healed, Confidence means you will NEVER EVER get hit during the 5 second regen? Rofl and it ony regen 40hp at 120 bushido and has a cooldown where recasting it will NOT heal you at all.

Cleanse By Fire... how do I cast this to remove poison with bushido?

Holy Light... hmm I wish moment strike hits everything within 5 tiles around me and it requires 120 bushido to use reliably to hit two mobs next to me only.

The truth is my bushido guy also has 60 chiv. With Prefection, EoO, Con Weapon, I dont have to carry 30+ weapon just to deal with random stuff that might come at me. I will be at dmg cap against ANY boss even if I dont have a slayer weapon for it. I can cure, heal, recall. Heck I can even dispel.

We all know chiv is that good, and 60 points is all you need to get the most out of it. No Chiv is not overpowered in PvM, in fact nothing is overpowered in PvM. Just be grateful that you are getting all those goodies for your little bitty point investment. Even those saying chiv isnt all that good most likely have at least 60 chiv in their template anyways. (which is why they are saying NAAA CHIV IS ****TY, so devs dont raise the point requirment which might damage their belove template w/ chiv)

 

[Bara]

No, its average.

Magery needs Eval
Necro needs SS
Weapons Skills need Tactics
Bushido needs Parrying
Heck, even Smiths/Tailors need Arms Lore

Chiv needs nothing...and to top it off...it only needs like 75 in its skill to be completely effective.

Huh?

You are running around killing monsters with only 75 chiv? Gogo holy light spam!

Seriously, my above point is that chivalry is nothing more than a support skill, like tactics or eval. It complements the warrior, but it can never, ever, stand on it's own.

 

[Limlight]

Holy Light can do most spawns by itself...so it doesnt always need a weapon skill.

Even with the support argument..the skill is overpowered.

Chiv is amazing with only 60 skill.

Name one other skill good at 60 skill...

I am going to list supports skills that need GM or better:
Resist Spells
Spirit Speak
Evaluate Intelligence
Tactics
Anatomy
Animal Lore
Music
Mining
Ninjitsu

The only support skills that give any benefit under GM are:
Med
Focus
Stealth

None of which give numerous spells at your disposal.

 

[RibaIdry]

They should add a skill that causes all your melee hits to do a million damage. Then all the chiv-apologists here can add it to their templates, and scream "BUT IT'S ONLY A SUPPORT SKILL, I STILL NEED SWORDSMANSHIP! ALL MAGES HAVE EVAL!" when someone suggests that this is overpowered.

 

[Lord Drakelord]

disagree with the OP

 

[Connor_Graham]

disagree with the OP

I agree with the disagreement. Chiv is useful, and is well balanced as compared to damage done by other character types.

Knock off all the nerf this, nerf that crap already.


I swear some of these people must do nothing but sit at home, stare at the UO screen while banksitting, and think up things to nerf....just because.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Holy Light can do most spawns by itself

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight and at 75 skill (at which you fail casting more times than succeed) to boot.

Uh huh... yeah... ok...

 

[RibaIdry]

So would the self-professed chiv/bushido guy or the frothy paladin roleplayer care to take up the gauntlet and name ANY potential melee/archer template that doesn't immediately become better when I clip something else off and add chivalry? I can think of specific templates where spellweaving/necro/whatever don't really belong, but can you NAME ANY MELEE OR ARCHER TEMPLATE THAT ISN'T SELF-NERFING BY NOT BEING A PALADIN?

Christ, if I recall they had to introduce specific nerfs just to keep every MAGE from having it too.