Auto logging pets. PVP Tamer...

[puni666]

This isn't effecting tamer game play at all.. it's changing a game mechanic that's being abused. They'll still have their ups and downs and won't be any different at all. I'm not really sure what the fuss is about on your end.

Being a tamer should mean that you have to deal with the consequences that are given to your class and game play. Just like every other template.

Just a few of many examples. Mages don't want to carry a ton of regs? well then they wear lrc suits, dexers don't want to use aids to heal all the time? well then they invest points in chivalry and waste mods on FC/FCR. Can't res your pet? well then invest points in vet. Not our fault pvp oriented tamers want to pack so much on a template. Deal with the consequences...

 

[Llewen]

This isn't effecting tamer game play at all.. it's changing a game mechanic that's being abused. They'll still have their ups and downs and won't be any different at all. I'm not really sure what the fuss is about on your end.

You clearly don't have much of a clue when it comes to playing a tamer in pvp, so I'm not sure your opinion counts for much. As I've said twice already, you get rid of skill loss for pets, and get rid of the loss of loyalty when pets are out of range, and I would have no problem with this change.

There is no other template that suffers a loss in effectiveness of a weapon or piece of equipment on death, and there is no other template for which there is a chance that a favourite weapon or piece of equipment can be lost entirely. Until those two things change, auto stable should stay.

Perhaps you would understand what I was saying if there was a chance that your Lieutenant Sash, or your Tangle or whatever your particular favourite piece of gear happens to be, could simply disappear, never to be found again, every time you die. And before you respond with, "A pet is a lot easier to replace than a [whatever]," I've spent years, literally, building my stable, and certain pets like dread warhorses, don't spawn anymore. Most of my pets are almost irreplaceable, and were certainly harder to find than any artifact.

 

[Vexxed]

Llewen Said:

There is no other template that suffers a loss in effectiveness of a weapon or piece of equipment on death, and there is no other template for which there is a chance that a favourite weapon or piece of equipment can be lost entirely. Until those two things change, auto stable should stay.

Ahh.. and there's no pets suffer a loss of effectiveness from Simple use.
&
Have you somehow missed all the people who've complained about the insurance bug? About whole insured or blessed suits dropping? Where you been? That's AT LEAST as likely to happen as a pet randomly disappearing.. The only cases I know of about bonded pets going poof are leaving them unstabled past serverdown...

Besides.... I'm not saying that your pet shouldn't Auto log. I'm saying there just needs to be a delay to it. If the pet has taken damage from a player in the past 30 seconds to a Maximum of 5 Minutes since when the Tamer logged then the pet stays in the game world to face the consequences..

 

[Llewen]

Have you somehow missed all the people who've complained about the insurance bug? About whole insured or blessed suits dropping? Where you been? That's AT LEAST as likely to happen as a pet randomly disappearing.. The only cases I know of about bonded pets going poof are leaving them unstabled past serverdown...

That's a bug, we're not talking about bugs here, we're talking about intended behaviour. If you want to bring bugs into the equation there are plenty of people that have lost pets due to bugs, probably far more than have lost suits due to the various insurance bugs.

Besides.... I'm not saying that your pet shouldn't Auto log. I'm saying there just needs to be a delay to it. If the pet has taken damage from a player in the past 30 seconds to a Maximum of 5 Minutes since when the Tamer logged then the pet stays in the game world to face the consequences..

Fine that takes care of the loss of loyalty when out of range, but there is still the matter of skill loss. Again, there is no other template that has to face anything similar. Yes imbued items will eventually lose all durability, but that isn't the same thing, and tamers face that just as much as any other template. If your favourite planesword lost a point on every relevant bonus every death, for example one point in dci, and one point on the hit lightning, and didn't get it back for up to an hour after of use after, that would be equivalent.

 

[RollinTheTweed]

I've dealt with actual skill loss on my player character from resing my PK back in the day. I dealt with faction stat loss over 3 years total, first two years being factions was released.

Dont argue, dont whine, a tamers place is in a dungeon gold hordeing. Its worse than a click follow killer that mashes maybe two buttons. You push a few more outside of dismount maybe? That, two weopons exp if you're a dismount tamer. Tamers have ALWAYS had the edge. I have fun watching you guys whine, and squirm. so stop with the crap, a tamer input on pvp is that of a mongbat's if you ask me. Its for simple minded people ^^

 

[Llewen]

I've dealt with actual skill loss on my player character from resing my PK back in the day. I dealt with faction stat loss over 3 years total, first two years being factions was released.

And now you don't have to deal with that. Was there a point in there somewhere?

Dont argue, dont whine, a tamers place is in a dungeon gold hordeing. Its worse than a click follow killer that mashes maybe two buttons. You push a few more outside of dismount maybe? That, two weopons exp if you're a dismount tamer. Tamers have ALWAYS had the edge. I have fun watching you guys whine, and squirm. so stop with the crap, a tamer input on pvp is that of a mongbat's if you ask me. Its for simple minded people ^^

I had a one on one fight earlier today, which I won. It lasted a good ten minutes. I used 5 different pet commands (not the total number I used, but the number of distinct pet commands), I used 7 different spells, and 4 different objects in that fight, for a total of more than 12 different macros/keybinds/etc.

"Tamers have ALWAYS had the edge"? Beyond being complete and utterly indefensible BS, it sounds distinctly like a "whine" to me. "Dont argue, dont whine"? "a tamers place is in a dungeon gold hordeing"? Kind of like a woman's place is barefoot, in the kitchen and pregnant?

Try this on for size Sunshine. You take your superiority complex, your snot nosed whining, and your attempts to tell me what to do, and you shove them where the sun don't shine... Once you actually have a clue what you are talking about, you can come back, and maybe then we can have a reasonable discussion...

 

[Yalp]

Try this on for size Sunshine. You take your superiority complex, your snot nosed whining, and your attempts to tell me what to do, and you shove them where the sun don't shine... Once you actually have a clue what you are talking about, you can come back, and maybe then we can have a reasonable discussion...

hee.. snicker snicker.. tee hee.

Here's the thing for all those slow to understand.. UO's best strength is it's variety and diversity. Until there's some game mechanic which prevents all except 5 or 6 skills from entering fel and engaging in pvp.. the choice is an individual one.. and all choices are valid and equal. If you can find a way to be successful with your axe swinging lumberjack.. then may the son shine on your face and the road rise up to meet you!

 

[Wenchkin]

It's a good thing you have that direct link to the devs that you do, and they make sure they tell you what their "real intentions" are for every feature, so you can pass it on to us mere mortals. *genuflects appropriately*

Find the bit where I mention contacting a dev and I'll give you a cookie. A dev isn't required for a player to think back and consider the patch notes or to recall subsequent changes and draw a conclusion. Normal players manage this daily.

Does it need a dev to tell you that logging out mid battle probably wasn't something they expected you to do? Honestly? I don't play a ton of games, but generally you play the game by being logged in or having it open.

Tell you what though, there's a nice forum here where you can ask the devs questions. If you can get a dev to agree that they intended autologging to save a pet from death and that they see no problem with players doing so in PvP/PvM then you get a cookie. And the bit you'd just love - being able to say hey Wenchy the devs sided with me on this.

oooo, now there was a stinging personal insult if I ever saw one. It's Llewen, and he plays a pvp tamer, so clearly he has no skill. And I'm clearly an idiot, and lazy to boot, so it just logically follows that I would take the easy way out.

It's Llewen, his account is what, a month old? And even if it's older than that, he clearly isn't smart enough to realize that everything he does is easy, and completely lacking in challenge, so he doesn't ever get bored.

It's Llewen, he's been pvp'ing now for what, a week? What does he know? Once he's been playing for a year or two, maybe he'll learn and start playing a "real" pvp template. *pffft* probably, not, he's not that smart, he's too old, slow and stupid to participate in "real" pvp.

*rereads her own post* Nope, didn't say any of that, didn't even hint at it. Sorry, you're either replying to the wrong person or puting insults in my mouth to take the role of victim.

*pfffft* Nice suit Llewen! It's a good thing you're a tamer and you don't need a real suit! Just slap on the old 100% lrc, and a couple of taming jewels, and you're good to go! Hell, he's such an idiot that before imbuing, he didn't even use lrc! The boys used to loot regs off of him all the time! We lol'd all teh way to the trash barrel! Poor Llewen, can't cast greater heal now! But Llewen's only been pvp'ing for a week, that must have been another Llewen...

This is a lot of typing to trouble yourself over something I didn't say or even hint at. *shrugs*

Is that about the size of it Wenchy? And I'm sure the same goes for the thousands of other pvp tamers that do exactly what I do, because what I do is so easy, there are literally thousands of them, except for of course the few "real" pvp'rs that have to put up with the millions of tamers "all kill"ing on them all the time.

Did I say PvP taming was easy? No.

What I said was very very clear in my last post.

It doesn't matter how hard PvP taming is, if a feature wasn't meant to be used to save your pets from dying, that's where the discussion ends. Unintended = the devs have every right to decide if they want to fix it. If it's intended and dev says "on you go" then you're sorted.

I've already said it. You get rid of skill loss on death, and get rid of loyalty loss when out of range, I have no problem with getting rid auto stable.

Or just put a combat cooldown on autologging pets and leave the rest.

Wenchy

 

[Wenchkin]

A whole palate of items can be identified which are not being used as the developers intented when it was implemented.

... Tboxes..not designed to circumvent parafields.
... "bagballs", tboxes, or any other item used to physically block access
... house designs which allow you to safely attack from inside
....waterbarrels not designed to create a chokepoint
.. faction bases providing safe shelter for faction toons while flagged *to non-faction pvp'rs
... etc.etc.
.. isn't that the glory of sandbox type games?

So the question isn't... Hey that's not what the developers meant when they did that.. so naughty on you!.... the question becomes.. does it create unfair game play or unbalance the system? Which presents *when looked at objectively* a much different analysis.

Sandbox aside, we're talking about logging out of a game to prevent a follower from dying. It doesn't take a genius to work out that maybe this isn't what you're supposed to do. That this could step over the sandbox idea and into the "things which need fixed" box. You're entitled to defend your sandbox and the hybrid tamer, but I'm also entitled to say I think this is wrong and needs to be changed.

Who knows, perhaps the devs will embrace the hybrid tamer 100% and save them from even needing to log out. They might say "aww, poor hybrids, just autostable a pet when a tamer dies." I just hope that sense prevails and we don't end up in a happy shiny world where tamers throw pets around without a care or consequence. I don't think the sandbox would be better for that.

Wenchy

 

[Llewen]

Llewen, if taming PvP was as hard and fraught as some of you guys claimed, you wouldn't be doing it

*rereads her own post* Nope, didn't say any of that, didn't even hint at it.

It was all there in that little gem M'Lady...

For the record, I deliberately make choices because they are challenging and no one else is doing them, not because they are easy. I play a "pure" tamer, a tamer with the full skills set in pvp, specifically because it is challenging, and no one else that I know of does it on a regular basis. I play a "pure" old school parry dexxer, with absolutely no spell book skills beyond what he gets for joat, because it is challenging, and no one else that I know of does it (and yes, it is a simple template to play, unlike my tamer, but that doesn't mean it isn't challenging).

 

[dukarlo]

Llewen, This thread is not about how uber leet your tamer is. Its about blatant exploitation of a game mechanic. It is also not about how emotionaly fragile players are when they watch thier pixel pet die. In fact I too have a pet. Hes a swamp dragon, his name is Snookums, I feed him i bathe him, I dress him up like a doll and have tea parties with him and i cuddle with him but you know what? He dies so I get him ressed and continue to pvp. Pets dieing are part of pvp. If someone gets that upset because a pet dies then maybe pvp is not for them to begin with. The fact is pets are supposed to be able to die and be ressed. Logging to save a pet should not be a pvp "feature'. We all should be able to slay that dragon thats trying to slay us. After all with pet ressurection death is only temporary.

 

[Llewen]

Llewen, This thread is not about how uber leet your tamer is. Its about blatant exploitation of a game mechanic.

You hide behind pets.

It's more or less a way to possibly detour people from playing a skill less template to playing a more skillful one.

All kill.. and you get Freebie PvP..

Nothing ever gets fixed all at once. You take one thing then fix it... then see what trickles out next and fix that, rinse and repeat...The quicker we point on the flaws of this game and get them fixed the faster people switch there templates to the next flavor of the month template with the greatest amount of flaws. Then guess what.. we get that fixed next!

Dont argue, dont whine, a tamers place is in a dungeon gold hordeing. Its worse than a click follow killer that mashes maybe two buttons. You push a few more outside of dismount maybe? That, two weopons exp if you're a dismount tamer. Tamers have ALWAYS had the edge. I have fun watching you guys whine, and squirm. so stop with the crap, a tamer input on pvp is that of a mongbat's if you ask me. Its for simple minded people ^^

dukarlo, if you think that I think this thread is about how "uber leet" my tamer is, you need to read the thread again. This thread is essentially about what every tamer hater whine thread is about, and that is, getting tamers out of pvp, and even better, out of the game altogether. I've seen dozens, if not hundreds of these threads in the years I've spent visiting Stratics, and they all basically boil down to that.

Tamers belong in pvp as much as any template does. So do cooks, and shepherds, and taste testers, if they so desire.

This just looks like another everyone vs tamer. I guess we can wait a week and see everyone vs archers. Week after that everyone vs mystics,week after everyone vs necros, finaly a week of saying everone vs everyone.

And UOKaiser has hit the nail on the head. If the tamer haters manage to get tamers removed from UO, or nerfed to the place where all they are good for is RP, it won't stop there. The day they succeed, there will be another target, and prejudice, which is what this really is, always requires a target.

Once tamers are "dealt with" the next on the list will be archers, or mystics, or bards, and you will read exactly the same nonsense about them as you read about tamers, how they have no place in pvp, and how they take no skill to play, and how everyone who plays one is a loser. It won't stop with tamers, I absolutely can guarantee you that.

When I play my tamer, I am not the greatest pvp'r in UO. I have fun, and I do do well, probably better than average, but I'm not the gods' gift to pvp. However, I have the same right to pvp with my tamer that every other player with every other template has. My tamer belongs in pvp just as much as your "uber leet" mage, and my template takes skill to play well.

Whether it takes more or less skill to play than some other template is really a matter of perspective, personal preference, and hair splitting, but it does take skill, just as any other template does. And in the end whether am better or worse at pvp than you or anyone else, is pretty much irrelevant, what is relevant is that I belong there just as much as anyone else does, and if you can't deal with that, it's your problem, not mine.

There are times when there are real imbalances that need to be addressed, and from what I have seen so far the devs generally do a pretty good job of it. Pvp in UO right now is the most balanced I have ever seen it. In part because it seems to me I am seeing fewer scripts in pvp than I used to, although I wouldn't swear to that, that might just be wishful thinking.

But the point is that I don't see anything in pvp regarding pets right now that requires balancing, or a whack with the nerf bat, and I'm not just saying that because I play a tamer. I very rarely use a dread warhorse in pvp, and I also don't think they need to be balanced. They have situational strengths, but for general pvp purposes, I have other preferences.

So if you want to get rid of auto stabling, that is fine, but in my opinion there would need to be two changes made before that change is made, and that is loyalty loss for pets out of range (although timer on pets before they are auto stabled, as has been suggested, would work for that), and skill loss on pet death, which is in my opinion, given that no other template has to retrain anything after a death, a matter of fairness.

If those two issues are dealt with, I have no problem with removing auto stabling.

 

[Wenchkin]

It was all there in that little gem M'Lady...

For the record, I deliberately make choices because they are challenging and no one else is doing them, not because they are easy. I play a "pure" tamer, a tamer with the full skills set in pvp, specifically because it is challenging, and no one else that I know of does it on a regular basis. I play a "pure" old school parry dexxer, with absolutely no spell book skills beyond what he gets for joat, because it is challenging, and no one else that I know of does it (and yes, it is a simple template to play, unlike my tamer, but that doesn't mean it isn't challenging).

Ah yes, I dropped in a little humour because I found it funny that whenever anyone talks about fixing something in tamer PvP, there is a rush of posts explaining how hard and miserable it is. At least that is the general impression you can get from reading enough of those posts.

But you want the challenge which is great! So you don't use autologging yourself, and you support this change. And I don't mean with strings attached where your pet doesn't lose skills or drop loyalty when out of range. I mean just taking the change with everything unchanged.

I just accept that pets die if I mess up. I'm still glad that I don't have to keep getting new pets like I once had to, and that an unexpected crash won't mean my pets can vanish. I don't autolog to save my pets - I find it irritating to log out, log in, rez then relog again to get a pet back. I'll recoup my insurance while re-training my pet, so why mess about with autolog? Sometimes there are nights when me and the critters leave a corpse pile, then the next morning I claim my pet and think "WTF were you doing Wenchy?!" but it was still fun! And I'll have a pet to train up again. The next time I fancy some champ hunting or whatever it should be, I'll do the same thing again.

Wenchy

 

[maroite]

The best part about this thread is the fact that all the "elite pvpers" are whining and saying "All Kill" takes no skill, yet... if they weren't dieing to "all kill" they probably wouldn't be complaining at all.

My point? You "elite pvpers" are dying to what amounts to PvM content. How do you ever make it through any dungeon if you can't even survive an underpowered pet which has many more drawbacks? ...

lol Like I said, this post just gives people an idea of who to kill in game.

List of easy targets for anyone on their servers, as if they can't survive/out run/drop agro from a pet, they probably won't last long against a mage or dexxer.

Also I love how I made a suggestion for a change and not one of these "elite pvpers" even commented on it. Why? Because they only want to nerf what they can't handle. This has nothing to do with balancing anything. rolleyes:

 

[dukarlo]

The best part about this thread is the fact that all the "elite pvpers" are whining and saying "All Kill" takes no skill, yet... if they weren't dieing to "all kill" they probably wouldn't be complaining at all.

My point? You "elite pvpers" are dying to what amounts to PvM content. How do you ever make it through any dungeon if you can't even survive an underpowered pet which has many more drawbacks? ...

lol Like I said, this post just gives people an idea of who to kill in game.

List of easy targets for anyone on their servers, as if they can't survive/out run/drop agro from a pet, they probably won't last long against a mage or dexxer.

Also I love how I made a suggestion for a change and not one of these "elite pvpers" even commented on it. Why? Because they only want to nerf what they can't handle. This has nothing to do with balancing anything. rolleyes:

Noone is saying get rid of tamers or complaining about dieing to one. The complaint is once we kill the tamer we cant kill the pet. They are essentialy invulnerable to death because of autologging.

 

[Llewen]

But you want the challenge which is great! So you don't use autologging yourself, and you support this change. And I don't mean with strings attached where your pet doesn't lose skills or drop loyalty when out of range. I mean just taking the change with everything unchanged.

Having to retrain a pet after it dies isn't challenging, it's annoying and a waste of time. The chance that I might lose a pet from a stable that has taken me years, literally, and thousands of hours, literally, to build, isn't a challenge, it's a reason to stop paying EA my sub, and go find something else to do, which would clearly make a few in this thread quite happy.

The complaint is once we kill the tamer we cant kill the pet. They are essentialy invulnerable to death because of autologging.

That's funny, I kill other tamers' pets all the time, and have great fun doing it. And that includes greater dragons. I can kill a dread warhorse in under ten seconds. Ask any tamer that's ever pvp'd against me. My pets also die once in a while, not all the time, but I do lose them on occasion. Maybe you just aren't as "skilled" or as "leet" as you think you are...

It's more or less a way to possibly detour people from playing a skill less template to playing a more skillful one.

Nothing ever gets fixed all at once. You take one thing then fix it... then see what trickles out next and fix that, rinse and repeat...The quicker we point on the flaws of this game and get them fixed the faster people switch there templates to the next flavor of the month template with the greatest amount of flaws. Then guess what.. we get that fixed next!

Noone is saying get rid of tamers...

You might have to read between the lines a bit, but that is exactly what is being said in this thread, and in the dozens of other threads just like this one, and not just by puni, but by many others just like him. I've even goaded a tamer hater or two into openly admitting that they don't just want them gone from pvp, they want them gone from the game altogether, and that is in this thread in the subtext as well, just as it is in every other thread like this one.

Noone is ... complaining about dieing to one (tamers that is). The complaint is once we kill the tamer we cant kill the pet. They are essentialy invulnerable to death because of autologging.

This kind of thing also comes up in virtually every thread like this one. What you are essentially saying is that you can beat a tamer every time, all the time, you just want to punish them a little more for being a tamer period? Killing and looting them isn't enough of a humiliation and aggravation, you want to heap a little more of each on top of that. Did I get that right?

I absolutely love it when "733t peeveepee'rs" start threads like this, go on and on about how tamers need to be nerfed, and don't belong in pvp and so on and so forth, and then are too proud to admit that they've been beaten by a tamer, and that is the real reason they are pissed.

Fine, you've never lost to a tamer, and tamers suck, and you are better at pvp than any tamer that's ever played the game. I'll just take that at face value. Then it is pretty clear to me that tamers don't need any further nerfing, and none of the suggestions in this thread from you and your cronies are founded on anything other than pure spite.

 

[Wenchkin]

Having to retrain a pet after it dies isn't challenging, it's annoying and a waste of time. The chance that I might lose a pet from a stable that has taken me years, literally, and thousands of hours, literally, to build, isn't a challenge, it's a reason to stop paying EA my sub, and go find something else to do, which would clearly make a few in this thread quite happy.

I honestly think you take this game far far too seriously as a tamer, I always have. Especially for a PvPer. It's a computer game, not a job. If you're so concerned about your pets being kept pristine and the time you've spent getting them that way, I'd recommend you just stable them and take them out like ornaments.

But I don't think the above is justification for keeping autologging as it is. I think it would be better changed and that you might enjoy this game more if you took it less seriously and just had fun. I love spending time doing silly exploratory hunts with pets, or using them to grab resources for my crafter. It's a relaxing change from the intensive stuff. TBH if I catch myself getting wound up and serious about UO, that's when I take a wee holiday.

Wenchy

 

[Llewen]

I honestly think you take this game far far too seriously as a tamer, I always have. Especially for a PvPer. It's a computer game, not a job. If you're so concerned about your pets being kept pristine and the time you've spent getting them that way, I'd recommend you just stable them and take them out like ornaments.

I have plenty of fun, thank you very much, in all kinds of ways. I am competitive, I always have been, and I'm always looking for an edge, without resorting to cheating. You may not realize this but when it comes to skills, 100 is a threshold. That means there is a much bigger difference between 99.9 and 100 than there is between 99.8 and 99.9, or 100 and 100.1.

I always keep my pets fully trained, that's one of the reasons why I do as well as I do, and yes it is also a pride thing. I enjoy the fact that my pets are fully trained. Call me eccentric, whatever, I don't particularly care. But I'm not impressed when people try to tell me how to do much of anything, unless I know that they actually have something useful to tell me, and that includes people trying to tell me how to play UO, or more specifically, pvp.

I don't mind having my pets die, but if I can avoid it, I will. I just happen to think a rule change that would entail me wasting 20 minutes to an hour of my time every time I died, that applies to no other template, or accept a reduction in the effectiveness of a template that is by no means over powered, and not even remotely close to being the dominant template in pvp, is unfair in my opinion, especially when what is motivating those who are asking for this change is pure prejudice.

And I am assuming of course that the change is implemented in a way that doesn't mean I have to risk losing my pets altogether. If that were the case, and I were to lose a pet as a result, I would likely cancel my accounts. It would be a grossly unfair penalty that no other template would have to deal with, and I would be seeing hundreds of hours of game time disappear in a puff of smoke.

 

[Lynk]

Did you think about that witty response before you posted? Because you clearly didn't think about what I posted...

Of course I didn't think about what you posted. I didn't read it.

I just got a new printer, maybe I'll print out every book that you've posted in this thread and I might get half way through it if I read it the next time I take a dump.

Quality over quantity when posting Llewen, no one reads your posts.

 

[Llewen]

Quality over quantity when posting Llewen, no one reads your posts.

Ah yes, another attempt at a witty put down. I think you need to try a little harder. I could make a very very very long post full of quotes that pretty much decisively prove that an awful lot of people read my posts, from beginning to end... And I'm betting someone would even read that from beginning to end...

But yes, it was clear that you had no clue what I had written, and were trying very hard to look ever-so-cool and ever-so-clever and ever-so-chi-chi, in the hopes that I would look bad in the process. Congratulations, a few of your fans applauded, and I'm sure one or two of them would have offered you a smoke if you were standing next to them...

Careful, those things will kill you, and you just can't stop once you start...

 

[Wenchkin]

I have plenty of fun, thank you very much, in all kinds of ways. I am competitive, I always have been, and I'm always looking for an edge, without resorting to cheating. You may not realize this but when it comes to skills, 100 is a threshold. That means there is a much bigger difference between 99.9 and 100 than there is between 99.8 and 99.9, or 100 and 100.1.

I always keep my pets fully trained, that's one of the reasons why I do as well as I do, and yes it is also a pride thing. I enjoy the fact that my pets are fully trained. Call me eccentric, whatever, I don't particularly care. But I'm not impressed when people try to tell me how to do much of anything, unless I know that they actually have something useful to tell me, and that includes people trying to tell me how to play UO, or more specifically, pvp.

I don't mind having my pets die, but if I can avoid it, I will. I just happen to think a rule change that would entail me wasting 20 minutes to an hour of my time every time I died, that applies to no other template, or accept a reduction in the effectiveness of a template that is by no means over powered, and not even remotely close to being the dominant template in pvp, is unfair in my opinion, especially when what is motivating those who are asking for this change is pure prejudice.

And I am assuming of course that the change is implemented in a way that doesn't mean I have to risk losing my pets altogether. If that were the case, and I were to lose a pet as a result, I would likely cancel my accounts. It would be a grossly unfair penalty that no other template would have to deal with, and I would be seeing hundreds of hours of game time disappear in a puff of smoke.

I realise there is a huge difference in how you play UO compared to how I do it. You have an absolute right to play the game as you want. As I do. Different strokes n all that. But playstyles don't mean we should keep autologging as it is. I value it for preventing pet losses through crashes/connection losses. I truly hope it remains for that. A cooldown linked to the combat timer would protect pets from crashes and situations outwith the tamer's control. If you crashed mid battle the pet would stay in game then get logged out after the combat flag dropped.

What I don't agree with is the is logging out to prevent a pet death bit. Certainly when it's clear, especially in this thread that tamers are relying on it like a set of stabilizers on a bike. I'm not directing that at you. Tbh it's the PvM autologging spawn droppers that I encounter most, and their disregard for the pets and players around them is sometimes astounding. I think autologging needs looking at, at least to clarify if it's getting changed.

Wenchy

 

[puni666]

I'm just here to point out an obvious flaw then move on to the next thing after this is changed. Seems like if this stays the way it is you should bring back casting teleport on yourself to teleport to a dead zone in a different server to save your a$$, flagged or not. People got banned for exploiting that.. why not this? A ban would be pretty sever for this, but it's the same basic principal. Using something that wasn't intended to your advantage.. over and over and over again.


I'm not specifically talking to Llewen just tamers in general/

 

[Llewen]

Using something that wasn't intended to your advantage.. over and over and over again.

I think Yalp addressed this already, whether you want to argue about whether this is "intended" or not.

A whole palate of items can be identified which are not being used as the developers intented when it was implemented.

... Tboxes..not designed to circumvent parafields.
... "bagballs", tboxes, or any other item used to physically block access
... house designs which allow you to safely attack from inside
....waterbarrels not designed to create a chokepoint
.. faction bases providing safe shelter for faction toons while flagged *to non-faction pvp'rs
... etc.etc.
.. isn't that the glory of sandbox type games?

So the question isn't... Hey that's not what the developers meant when they did that.. so naughty on you!.... the question becomes.. does it create unfair game play or unbalance the system? Which presents *when looked at objectively* a much different analysis.

I think autologging needs looking at, at least to clarify if it's getting changed.

Well I think we've both stated our case, in this thread and others, and can agree to disagree. If the topic comes up again, I'll argue it again, as I have in the past, or maybe I'll be smart and just link to this thread - although that rarely works "as intended" either.

 

[RollinTheTweed]

And now you don't have to deal with that. Was there a point in there somewhere?



I had a one on one fight earlier today, which I won. It lasted a good ten minutes. I used 5 different pet commands (not the total number I used, but the number of distinct pet commands), I used 7 different spells, and 4 different objects in that fight, for a total of more than 12 different macros/keybinds/etc.

"Tamers have ALWAYS had the edge"? Beyond being complete and utterly indefensible BS, it sounds distinctly like a "whine" to me. "Dont argue, dont whine"? "a tamers place is in a dungeon gold hordeing"? Kind of like a woman's place is barefoot, in the kitchen and pregnant?

Try this on for size Sunshine. You take your superiority complex, your snot nosed whining, and your attempts to tell me what to do, and you shove them where the sun don't shine... Once you actually have a clue what you are talking about, you can come back, and maybe then we can have a reasonable discussion...

Im not whining, you just can't handle your pets going wild, or losing stats? You're the whine bag, straight up and down. Doesn't take a brain cell one to control a tamer, in pvm or pvp. I didnt single anyone out, you just automatically took offense, child. I give you permission to remove that foot from your mouth.

Come back and argue after you google a decent insult, and defensive skills. Much like your taming template, its whack.

 

[Yalp]

Sorry to burst your bubble.. the thread subject is non-tamers complaining about auto-logging pets... not tamers whining about how hard they have it. If you can move aside from the personal insults, you'll see valid points laid out by people (some tamers who pvp, some tamers who don't pvp, some tamers who pvm, some tamers who don't pvm, some non-tamers) as to why the auto-log feature for tamers balances the drawbacks of using pets to play this game with.

If you could bring yourself to address these points instead of trying to show off your "skillz" you might make an actual contribution to the thread.

 

[RollinTheTweed]

The way I see it, you all need cheese with that whine. I seen it, and been through it all. I dont care if you enjoy your play time or not, or your time on these boards. There's more issues with tamers than the auto pet logging, it's all a game of nit pickers screaming gimme gimme.

Screw the pet timer. it doesnt make or break your pvp abilities. Worried about the pet? Focus your group effort and kill the pet first, we do it all the time. As I heard from gimp warriors over the years with one-two hit killers, get with times and ADAPT. End of story. Pot calling the kettle black...

Haha.

 

[EricVT]

What a bizarre thread.

Bottom line: Some tamers exploit an unintended game mechanic to avoid their pets being killed, thereby evading the risk associated with taking a pet into battle and having it help them kill things.

It should be fixed.

 

[Llewen]

You're the whine bag, straight up and down. Doesn't take a brain cell one to control a tamer, in pvm or pvp. I didnt single anyone out, you just automatically took offense, child.

If you could bring yourself to address these points instead of trying to show off your "skillz" you might make an actual contribution to the thread.

Haha.

I'm afraid Yalp, there's no point in discussing anything with Mr. Rollin. His posts are 100% pure, unadulterated troll, and objectivity, truth, and common sense are clearly beyond his apparently limited intellectual capabilities. The more he posts, the more obvious it is, and responding to him is completely pointless. Unless someone has something intelligent to contribute, that is something other than blind tamer hatred, and trolling, I'll be taking my leave of this thread.

Enjoy your Saturday night friends...

 

[A Rev]

So far ive seen lots of people complaining about pet logging without actually any good reasons.

First of all, Pet summoning balls do exactly the same thing.

Second, removing it would make the dismount ganks oh so much more effective.

Third, Pets arent even a problem in PvP and havent been for a while. Not since they Nerfed drags. If you cant survive 1 firebreath / bleed every 30secs well...Trammel >>>

Fourth, maybe a dexer shouldnt be able to insure there weapons...or armour, same with a mage.

Fifth, you moan about skill point / Stats yet mystics can gain just as many for 0 additional skill increas.

Sixth, youve said theres no disadvantage? being on foot isnt a disadvantage? Having a pet that moves like a snail isnt a disadvantage??

Seventh, Pets are ridiculously easy to kill anyway. Especially with Mystic. Slap on a slayer and in about 40secs the pets dead.

There are even more i could go into but ill leave it at these for now.

And a FYI i dont play a tamer. Or a mystic. I play a scribe mage. Have had no problem with pets.

 

[Old Man of UO]

... First of all, Pet summoning balls do exactly the same thing. ...

I don't disagree with what you are saying in general, or disagree with those who want to stop the auto logging - I will adjust just fine with however it gets changed IF it gets changed.

I just wanted to point out, there are many places PSB's do NOT work, but auto logging your pet will work to summon your pet to you. There needs to be adjustments to both.

 

[A Rev]

I just wanted to point out, there are many places PSB's do NOT work, but auto logging your pet will work to summon your pet to you. There needs to be adjustments to both.

This is somewhat true. In a PvP perspective most of the tamers are seen at spawns. Occasionaly they will be seen at the gate too.

In both of these locations pet summoning balls work exactly the same way. The only difference is one requires an item.

To be honest, i use one tamer for spawning. Occasionaly i will need to pvp on it but even so...i use spellweaving so i dont even care if my pet dies. Ill use the summoning ball to summon the ghost and auto res. Within about 10-15secs the pet is back to full health, so any change wont really affect me.

 

[Old Man of UO]

This is somewhat true. In a PvP perspective most of the tamers are seen at spawns. Occasionaly they will be seen at the gate too.

In both of these locations pet summoning balls work exactly the same way. The only difference is one requires an item.
....

Ya, but when a change is proposed, you need to consider how it affects BOTH PvP and PvM.

 

[A Rev]

Agreed, although that point was kind of made to highlight the fact that there is no change that will make a blind bit of difference to pvp.

If they stopped auto logging it would just mean a person uses a pet ball.

On that note, it would also mean that non pvp pets (swampies and other mounts) would be instantly killed all the time.

Personally i think theres already enough dismount ganking. Would get even worse if people kept losing there mounts. I would definatly say stopping auto log would decrease the amount of fights, which i definatly dont want to see.

And this would negatively impact the pvm aspect as well, weve all been disconnected at bad times. This feature prevents your mounts/pets from being toasted and allows you to get back into a fight alot faster. Imagine a sampire disconning inside a solo peerless and losing there paroxy too! what a waste of time that would be!

If...and a big IF...they changed it and took out auto log, then surely they would need to reduce the timer on the NPC vets?? As well as making the pet res things easier to come by. Which would mean the change was completely pointless.

All in all, i really dont see what the big deal is. Maybe someone could explain it to me...maybe im just dumb and dont understand the massive negative affect everyone else sees?

Maybe i dont see the difference in a tamer auto logging there drag and being able to fight at max capacity, to a 4/6 bush poison dexxer being able to res and fight at max capacity, or a gimped out mystic mage being able to res and fight at max capacity with pots instantly.

Sorry i just dont see the big deal.

 

[Lynk]

Careful, those things will kill you, and you just can't stop once you start...

The only thing that's going to kill me is this pen that I stab in my eye when I get the uncontrollable urge after reading your novels.

 

[Cetric]

Make dragons 1-hit kill everything in the game, and unable to attack players for all i care.

 

[Cetric]

Honestly, they put bonding in the game for a reason. it should be able to die just like i can die. Its not like i can logout when im redlined and log back in later in a safe zone.

some of the biggest horse**** is when there is a spawn/harry fight and a group brings tons of dragons to push a fielded grinder area, and you cant take the pets out of the fight. I would have no problem if someone sat back with thousands of aids to res the drags that died, but the fact they just log the dragons, log back in, throw a few heals on them, and send them back is ********.

I'll fully admit i would abuse it. Why? because i don't want to have to get out of the fight and res my stupid pet cause it got nuked. I chose to add a "helper" to my offense, there should be a consequence to it.

 

[dukarlo]

The bottom line is this. Pet summoning balls are not the same as auto logging. Pet balls cant be used while the tamer is dead. Auto logging is being exploited. Exploits should not be "features". Many feel tamers are lame but tamers have been in the game since I started playing in 99 and theres no reason to eliminate them or restrict them from pvp etc. One of the trade offs of restricting the number of pets a tamer could use was the addition of bonding pets. The complaint of the OP is not that he cant kill a tamer. Some tamers are easy to kill some are hard to kill. I play in a guild that fights in big fights in dungeons and champ areas etc. Sometimes enemies have up to 5 superdragons that are still fighting while tamers are dead with alot of area effects going on. Its not an issue of how fast you can kill a pet when the tamer is standing there dead just waiting to autolog it. Last I checked pets werent meant to have an invuln tag. If they were they would highlight yeloow. Pets were meant to be killed just like the players the pets are attacking. Every single tamer that does this knows they are using an exploit. Exploits should not be defended.

 

[Widow Maker]

"Pets were meant to be killed just like the players the pets are attacking. Every single tamer that does this knows they are using an exploit. Exploits should not be defended."

THIS is a correct and indefensible statement.

This applies for PvM and PvP. Base line..a pet stays in for the duration of a combat flag..be it against a monster OR a player. Then it can autolog and it SHOULD go right into the stables.

If it dies and looses .1 in all skills, that is the risk of the reward of being able to use a pet to fight for you.

This is how it should have been from the start and how it should be right the frack now.

 

[Yalp]

"Pets were meant to be killed just like the players the pets are attacking. Every single tamer that does this knows they are using an exploit. Exploits should not be defended."

THIS is a correct and indefensible statement.

This applies for PvM and PvP. Base line..a pet stays in for the duration of a combat flag..be it against a monster OR a player. Then it can autolog and it SHOULD go right into the stables.

If it dies and looses .1 in all skills, that is the risk of the reward of being able to use a pet to fight for you.

This is how it should have been from the start and how it should be right the frack now.

I am all for your solution as long as it is applied evenly across all skills.. it is indefensible to argue against this statement. So archers.. when you die, your bow will lose 0.1 in all modifications .. that is the risk/reward of using that l33t bow. Dexers.. You too. Mages.. your spellbook/mage wep will also be dropping every time you die.. pvp/pvm/suicide makes no difference, everyone must assume the risk of the reward for killing other things.

 

[Dubar]

i didnt read the whole thing so im sure someone already brought this up

my problem with this is tamers can bypass the need to rez their pets in pvp, and free up 100+ points because of a game mechanic intended to keep you from losing your pet because of disconnects

if tamers wanna run no vet they should have to deal with the consequences of their pet dying, but in the current system, they dont

 

[olduofan]

I am all for your solution as long as it is applied evenly across all skills.. it is indefensible to argue against this statement. So archers.. when you die, your bow will lose 0.1 in all modifications .. that is the risk/reward of using that l33t bow. Dexers.. You too. Mages.. your spellbook/mage wep will also be dropping every time you die.. pvp/pvm/suicide makes no difference, everyone must assume the risk of the reward for killing other things.

Your logic is found wanting.

for 1 dexers spend the most amount on armor and weapons and have to replace and repair all the time your pet is free and when dexers die they pay out A LOT more ins than tamers . Also your pet is free and does not have up keep cost or replacement cost. Most of this goes for mages as well cost are just less

anther point tamers always complain about dexers being able to have many types of weapons and slayer DO YOU really think we want to none stop look for better and better weapons and have to carry 15 different kinds when hunting dungeons and not to mention the cost and upkeep

tames are the most powerful and easiest template in the game and you all want MORE

 

[olduofan]

"Pets were meant to be killed just like the players the pets are attacking. Every single tamer that does this knows they are using an exploit. Exploits should not be defended."

THIS is a correct and indefensible statement.

This applies for PvM and PvP. Base line..a pet stays in for the duration of a combat flag..be it against a monster OR a player. Then it can autolog and it SHOULD go right into the stables.

If it dies and looses .1 in all skills, that is the risk of the reward of being able to use a pet to fight for you.

This is how it should have been from the start and how it should be right the frack now.

YOU ARE RIGHT SIGNED

 

[WarUltima]

I am all for your solution as long as it is applied evenly across all skills.. it is indefensible to argue against this statement. So archers.. when you die, your bow will lose 0.1 in all modifications .. that is the risk/reward of using that l33t bow. Dexers.. You too. Mages.. your spellbook/mage wep will also be dropping every time you die.. pvp/pvm/suicide makes no difference, everyone must assume the risk of the reward for killing other things.

OK, and I agree but to make it fair all none taming characters gets 1000 hp, 800str, and randomly shoots out fireballs that does 60+ dmg, Spellcasters no longer required to stand still and cast being able to cast on the run and can casts 2 spells at the same time... also randomly shoots out fireballs that does 60+.

/signed

 

[maroite]

Llewen Said:


Ahh.. and there's no pets suffer a loss of effectiveness from Simple use.
&
Have you somehow missed all the people who've complained about the insurance bug? About whole insured or blessed suits dropping? Where you been? That's AT LEAST as likely to happen as a pet randomly disappearing.. The only cases I know of about bonded pets going poof are leaving them unstabled past serverdown...

Besides.... I'm not saying that your pet shouldn't Auto log. I'm saying there just needs to be a delay to it. If the pet has taken damage from a player in the past 30 seconds to a Maximum of 5 Minutes since when the Tamer logged then the pet stays in the game world to face the consequences..

...

So now, if someone plinks a pet, the tamer essentially can't log/stable their pet for 5 mins? ...

People lose pets when they're logged and the pet is still in game. Not to mention the pet will wonder off, be pulled away.

The best part is that you people want PvP, but by making these changes would essentially ruin pvp more because instead of having constant pvp, you would force people to take a lot of time to get back into the fight.

You want to punish people who fit too much on their template, but you're punishing real tamers more. Fix the problems with pets (Pathing/going wild/randomly disappearing). Get rid of skill loss. Fix pet balls to be able to summon ANYWHERE and give tamers a reason to have Vet for pvp and I would agree with changes to auto logging pets.

Although I still think you're sad for essentially wanting to grief tamers. rolleyes:

OK, and I agree but to make it fair all none taming characters gets 1000 hp, 800str, and randomly shoots out fireballs that does 60+ dmg, Spellcasters no longer required to stand still and cast being able to cast on the run and can casts 2 spells at the same time... also randomly shoots out fireballs that does 60+.

/signed

When is the last time you pvped? Because you look like a fool.

A 1000 HP dragon no longer does 60+ damage in pvp unless you're running around naked, in which case I fail to see how that is the dragons fault. More like user error.

I'd be fine with that. You also can't mount. You move at walking speed, aka a person without the 1000hp and 750ish str (obviously talking out your ass again) will easily out run you, even on foot. You also have no decision when to heal yourself. You can't use potions or bandages. You are subject to discord, without the discording bard flagging on you. Oh and you are vulnerable to dragon slayer weapons, causing 3x damage to you. Also you can't use slayer weapons of any kind. You max resists are 85/90/50/55/75. Nice huh? Too bad you can be disco'd though right? rolleyes:

Oh yeah your Eval int is stuck at 100, you can't cast lvl 8 spells, you can't summon other creatures, you can't cast field spells.

Edit: I forgot! you will randomly get stuck on stuff while attempting to chase other players, resulting in you looking silly as you run into the side of houses.

Seems about right.

Your logic is found wanting.

for 1 dexers spend the most amount on armor and weapons and have to replace and repair all the time your pet is free and when dexers die they pay out A LOT more ins than tamers . Also your pet is free and does not have up keep cost or replacement cost. Most of this goes for mages as well cost are just less

anther point tamers always complain about dexers being able to have many types of weapons and slayer DO YOU really think we want to none stop look for better and better weapons and have to carry 15 different kinds when hunting dungeons and not to mention the cost and upkeep

tames are the most powerful and easiest template in the game and you all want MORE

Oh really? My insurance is probably around 8k on my tamer. I repair all the time too. My pet isn't free, I have to pay 30 gold per pet per RL week for stables, and it took me roughly 2 years to get taming high enough to be able to tame a greater dragon.

Takes a dexxer what, 2 weeks to get his skills where he wants them? lol

Pets do have replacement cost, in the form of time invested. Obviously you have no clue what effort goes into finding the perfect tame. It can be months, or years. Its not as if I can just go out and buy the mats either, I physically have to work the dragon spawn until one I like spawns.

Are you serious? A sampire can swing out 300 damage hits every 1.25 seconds on Peerless level mobs. Infact there was a thread recently talking about what to use to solo champs and guess what, tamers were not the main builds, sampire and archers were.

Pets can't use slayers, which means tamers take much longer to kill stuff, and a sampire with the right suit can easily solo everything and more than a tamer.

Not all tamers only rely on their pets for damage either, which just shows your ignorance even more. Tamers use weapons as well and must carry around multiple amounts of slayer weapons for different spawns.

 

[Yalp]

Your logic is found wanting.

for 1 dexers spend the most amount on armor and weapons and have to replace and repair all the time your pet is free and when dexers die they pay out A LOT more ins than tamers . Also your pet is free and does not have up keep cost or replacement cost. Most of this goes for mages as well cost are just less

anther point tamers always complain about dexers being able to have many types of weapons and slayer DO YOU really think we want to none stop look for better and better weapons and have to carry 15 different kinds when hunting dungeons and not to mention the cost and upkeep

tames are the most powerful and easiest template in the game and you all want MORE

uh-oh you've opened the proverbial can o'worms...

don't know many tamers who spend hours upon hours working spawns to get just the right stated pet to spawn? or the hours on hours getting them trained? or the week it takes before they can even get their pet out of the stables?

So, costs.. well armor needing repaired/replaced isn't restricted to any one template. I have a crafter so my repairs are exactly.. um.. free. Costs to acquire weps.. umm.. the time it takes my miner/jacker to get the ingots/leather/wood. (or if i buy them). Getting weapons? The time it takes to loot and or make with low end runics I get from turning in bods. Pet upkeep, I do have to feed them and this costs me exactly... um free. Either I use spell to make food or I cut up the various critters I kill to make up some raw ribs.. Oh I do have apple trees.. so my fruit is exactly.. um free. I don't know why (or how you manage the weight) of carrying 15 weps. I carry at most 4 when I'm on my dexer *yes pvp included*. But what I can bless is blessed so that is exactly ummm. free.

I wish tamers were the most powerful template for every occasion.. but It's just not so. If you think tamers rule pvp.. which shard are you on? I'm gonna transfer my guy immediately!


I have no issue with dead pets having an insurance cost.. scaled like for other templates.. that's a good idea.. of course so long as skill loss is eliminated. Fair trade. Balanced.

 

[olduofan]

Yes I have my GD and yes I play a tamer rarely play it B/C its to EASY no challenge

 

[Cetric]

I am all for your solution as long as it is applied evenly across all skills.. it is indefensible to argue against this statement. So archers.. when you die, your bow will lose 0.1 in all modifications .. that is the risk/reward of using that l33t bow. Dexers.. You too. Mages.. your spellbook/mage wep will also be dropping every time you die.. pvp/pvm/suicide makes no difference, everyone must assume the risk of the reward for killing other things.

yea but you can make an archer tamer, a mage tamer, etc. Both the pet and you can be fighting at the same time, even if you make an archer mage, you aren't using both abilities at the same time.

 

[maroite]

Yes I have my GD and yes I play a tamer rarely play it B/C its to EASY no challenge

Obvious troll is obvious.

rolleyes:

 

[maroite]

yea but you can make an archer tamer, a mage tamer, etc. Both the pet and you can be fighting at the same time, even if you make an archer mage, you aren't using both abilities at the same time.

Yeah, but for most pure tamers half their skills are put into taming skills. If you nerf taming, you're going to ruin pure tamers when the target of your nerf is the people putting huge amounts of skills on one template.

 

[puni666]

Yeah, but for most pure tamers half their skills are put into taming skills. If you nerf taming, you're going to ruin pure tamers when the target of your nerf is the people putting huge amounts of skills on one template.

Where's the tamer nerf? This is simply making a game mechanic work correctly.