Auto logging pets. PVP Tamer...

[the 4th man]

Why does it matter, your after the player, not the pet. Do you kids sit around all day working on things to complain about?

Amen to that!

Seriously, what concern is it to you if my greater lives or dies once I'm toast, and he's not munching on your leg??

Or are you a PVP that gets off on killing everything for another player?

Probably, that's the main problem with pvp, it went from player versus player, to punk versus punk.......


later jr

 

[Old Man of UO]

The auto log "feature" was not put in the game to keep pets from dying. ... It bypasses intended consequences and takes fun out of the game. ....

I mostly agree with what you are saying, but I have no idea by what you mean "takes fun out of the game." What fun are you missing... killing the pet along with the tamer? That just sounds like griefing and I don't think that's what you meant.

 

[dukarlo]

I mostly agree with what you are saying, but I have no idea by what you mean "takes fun out of the game." What fun are you missing... killing the pet along with the tamer? That just sounds like griefing and I don't think that's what you meant.

So your saying the pet should be able to kill me but I shouldnt be able to kill the pet?

 

[Old Man of UO]

I mostly agree with what you are saying, but I have no idea by what you mean "takes fun out of the game." What fun are you missing... killing the pet along with the tamer? That just sounds like griefing and I don't think that's what you meant.

So your saying the pet should be able to kill me but I shouldnt be able to kill the pet?

That's not what I said at all, and you are taking it out of context. I was asking for clarification.

 

[maroite]

If your dying so often that these things are big issues, I really don't think it's autologging that's the issue.


In other words "I would rather not need vet skill for my tamer to PvP so I want the panic button so my pets never have to die." Really, just come out and say it. No need to write about how you haven't got a use for vet skill, really. Naturally vet is going to be "worthless" to you because you want to run a template that doesn't use it, so you have more power for PvP. You say vet is of situational use only, when what you're meaning is basically "I only *need* it if my pets die, so if I can prevent them dying I can live without vet skill." Again, just come out and say it straight. Vet isn't worthless, you just don't want it on your template, and it would clearly inconvenience you to have to rez a pet because it died.


Um....right....all this because you don't want vet skill? Blimey.

Wenchy

Wenchy, assuming makes you look really bad.

I pvp on a pure tamer. AKA 120 Taming/Lore/Vet. So no I don't want to get rid of my "vet so I can run a template that doesn't use it."

My template is 120 Focus/Myst/Mage/Vet/Tame/Lore and yes I do pvp on this template, and yes I actually do rather well. I don't consider my self a good PvPer, nor do I consider myself an average pvper. Maybe this is because I play my build the way its meant to? Instead of attempting to make some build that is impossibly hard to defeat? hmm... imagine that...

I never use vet in PvP. In fact, lately I don't use vet at all even in PvM. Not when I can spam GHs. Because I have Vet on my template, and I know when I use it and when I don't I believe I have every right to say vet is a very situational skill, and other than ressing a pet, is rather useless in PvP.

I'm pretty disappointed in your assumptions, not that it probably matters to you.

The auto log "feature" was not put in the game to keep pets from dying. If it was the case, why were pet balls and bonding put in the game? Auto logging is flat out an abused exploit. It bypasses intended consequences and takes fun out of the game. People make it sound like a pet is worthless and and unarmed for pvp. Its quite the opposite, they are quite powerful(no problems there) and has a player with skills, weapons and abilities to aid it(again no problem). Its sad that this game has gotten to the point where people defend exploits left and right. Its also sad that the easier the game is made for players(again bonding, pet balls etc) the more people cry and abuse things.

Bonding wasn't put in the game so that people could kill peoples pets in PvP. It was put in the game because it should have been in game to begin with.

Also, I think you should show your ignorance more because you commenting on pet balls is laughable. You do realize that in a lot of areas, like champ spawns, you have to be away from the alter in order to summon your pet right? That means if you're defending the alter in dsp and some twit hits your pet and purposely gets it stuck on terrain because the pathing for pets is sooo amazing, you can't summon it back to the alter. Really fair right? (By away from the alter, I mean like 2 screens which, when being pushed in dsp is quite far.)

So your saying the pet should be able to kill me but I shouldnt be able to kill the pet?

I would argue that the pet doesn't kill you, the tamer does. The pet is just the means to killing you. If the tamer doesn't say "All kill" and target you, the pet will never do anything unless its guarding and you attack the tamer or the pet, in which case a command is still being given by the tamer.

 

[EricVT]

Tamers take their pets into combat and have them attack other players with the intent to kill them. Those players should have the option to kill the pet in return. Some tamers exploit an unrelated game mechanic to avoid this happening.

Seems black and white to me.

 

[Old Man of UO]

...
I never use vet in PvP. In fact, lately I don't use vet at all even in PvM. Not when I can spam GHs. Because I have Vet on my template, and I know when I use it and when I don't I believe I have every right to say vet is a very situational skill, and other than ressing a pet, is rather useless in PvP.
....

On a side note:
I have two macro keys for healing my pet. One is to use a bandage only.

The second macro uses a bandage and then casts Greater Heal. The advantage of the second macro is that if I want to spam greater heal or use both a bandage and the GH (double healing) I just spam the one macro - which is just as fast and I have one less macro to remember. If I start healing and my pet moves too far away for the bandages, the GH still works. The timing also works out so that if the pet is poisoned the bandage cures and the GH heals. I use this macro for healing +95% of the time in any situation, PvP (accidental in my case) and PvM.

 

[RollinTheTweed]

Really, who cares. In pvp the tamer dies, logs to prevent their "weapon" from losing stats. If every time the archer died his bow lost 0.1 in di/hld/hl/hf, etc. then it's balanced.

If pets stopped losing their trained skills every time they die, then the incentive to log/auto-stable is gone. Just rez it up.

If you're upset cause some peeps run a tamer template with Lore, Tame, and no Vet then bring up a thread advocating for a change to requirements for skills in taming/controlling a pet.

But if you advocate for that, be prepared.. as some tamers might find needing to invest say 360 skill points to run a pet that has been nerfed to uselessness rather unbalanced and call for either a buffing of say gd's or a nerfing of say dps of bows, blades, spells, etc.

You're nuts man, havent been around long have you? You hide behind pets. Your arguement is flawed, you really believe that crap? First off, weapons of any kind have durability, mages get disrupted. Even though most pets used in PvP are magical, how often do you see them fizzle? Exactly, you never do.

I have two tamers, one on GL thats being worked, not once have I killed someone with it.

 

[RollinTheTweed]

Wenchy, assuming makes you look really bad.

I pvp on a pure tamer. AKA 120 Taming/Lore/Vet. So no I don't want to get rid of my "vet so I can run a template that doesn't use it."

My template is 120 Focus/Myst/Mage/Vet/Tame/Lore and yes I do pvp on this template, and yes I actually do rather well. I don't consider my self a good PvPer, nor do I consider myself an average pvper. Maybe this is because I play my build the way its meant to? Instead of attempting to make some build that is impossibly hard to defeat? hmm... imagine that...

I never use vet in PvP. In fact, lately I don't use vet at all even in PvM. Not when I can spam GHs. Because I have Vet on my template, and I know when I use it and when I don't I believe I have every right to say vet is a very situational skill, and other than ressing a pet, is rather useless in PvP.

I'm pretty disappointed in your assumptions, not that it probably matters to you.



Bonding wasn't put in the game so that people could kill peoples pets in PvP. It was put in the game because it should have been in game to begin with.

Also, I think you should show your ignorance more because you commenting on pet balls is laughable. You do realize that in a lot of areas, like champ spawns, you have to be away from the alter in order to summon your pet right? That means if you're defending the alter in dsp and some twit hits your pet and purposely gets it stuck on terrain because the pathing for pets is sooo amazing, you can't summon it back to the alter. Really fair right? (By away from the alter, I mean like 2 screens which, when being pushed in dsp is quite far.)



I would argue that the pet doesn't kill you, the tamer does. The pet is just the means to killing you. If the tamer doesn't say "All kill" and target you, the pet will never do anything unless its guarding and you attack the tamer or the pet, in which case a command is still being given by the tamer.

Plausable, I guess? Haha, so you claim all kills that your greater dragons dishes out? The only good nerf that tamers got was years back when they added control slots. Bonding wasn't needed back in the day at all, if you lost your pet to death go tame another. Bonding was added because of all the crying that it wasnt fair because of insurance.

Now really think about it. Tamers was overpowering when they could run around 10+ dragons, fixed that. Now they're overpowering again with pets that cast, have special abilities. So really in the end tamers are more overpowering because of the specs and casting compared to other pvpers, lets say who wants to use mortal or bleed, or what ever the heck your pets spec is, he would have to have the 80+ skill in that mastery to do what your pet is doing, when YOU yourself don't have a lick of melee combat skills.

 

[UOKaiser]

This just looks like another everyone vs tamer. I guess we can wait a week and see everyone vs archers. Week after that everyone vs mystics,week after everyone vs necros, finaly a week of saying everone vs everyone.

If one class is so over powering why don't people play only that class? Yea I know because we don't liek it or whaetever. I thought the point is to decimate your opponent so if the way to decimate your opponent was to pick a certain skill set why doesn't everyone? Then with tamers why not just kill the tamer? Confusion pots work in pvp don't they? toss one at dragon paralyse him if mage or use a slayer if dexter or get it stuck between some shrub. if the tamer was attacked he can't instant log out he will be vulnerable if he tries to log out. Kill him during that time it's a good 10-15 seconds depending how fast they can get back on plenty of time to kill him.

I just don't get it.If after a whole month we cover every class being over powered in some way doesn't this mean every class is balanced with some having advantages in certain areas compare to others in different areas? Does everyone here expect to win more than 50% of the time? Even 80-90% of a time against every template using only 1 template of your own? Wouldn't that make you overpowered even though in your mind you think your good?

I definetely picture all of you mashing buttons like a maniac and destroying your own keyboards and mouses "poor cats and dogs" because UO has too long of a timing on everything. Ya all are insane.

 

[Mistura]

Tamers take their pets into combat and have them attack other players with the intent to kill them. Those players should have the option to kill the pet in return. Some tamers exploit an unrelated game mechanic to avoid this happening.

Seems black and white to me.

QFT

Old man of UO thinks its griefing....LOL

 

[Mistura]

What fun are you missing... killing the pet along with the tamer? That just sounds like griefing

 

[RollinTheTweed]

I have every character type you can imagine when it comes casters. I don't use my tamers, or my melee gimps in PvP.

I have an actual pure mage with inscribe. A necro for spawns. But it's clear you're missing the point, or is afraid that maybe just maybe a tamer will get a kick in the ^.^. It doesn't matter to me really, just putting valid points out there, bragging rights at fighting, and fighting in general lost all skills and talent with aos, when items completly took over the game from the occ power weapon, or vanq.

 

[Wenchkin]

Wenchy, assuming makes you look really bad.

I think it was clear that I was interpreting your views about vet and even asking you to come straight out with what you meant rather than post in such a roundabout way. Now we see exactly why that clarity makes all the difference. I bounced back the meaning your post seemed to be conveying, if that was wrong then I'm looking at your original post thinking "well no wonder I got it wrong".

My template is 120 Focus/Myst/Mage/Vet/Tame/Lore and yes I do pvp on this template, and yes I actually do rather well. I don't consider my self a good PvPer, nor do I consider myself an average pvper. Maybe this is because I play my build the way its meant to? Instead of attempting to make some build that is impossibly hard to defeat? hmm... imagine that...

Ok, and how am I supposed to know that from what you posted?

I never use vet in PvP. In fact, lately I don't use vet at all even in PvM. Not when I can spam GHs. Because I have Vet on my template, and I know when I use it and when I don't I believe I have every right to say vet is a very situational skill, and other than ressing a pet, is rather useless in PvP.

You're absolutely entitled to say what you think about vet, just as I do. But when you talk about a PvP template and describe a skill as "worthless" I'm hoping you can understand that the logical conclusion is you aren't using that skill on your template all the time. That you may indeed be using a soulstone to rez a pet when you otherwise use autolog. Especially as you seem to be here defending the autologging option in PvP.

I'm pretty disappointed in your assumptions, not that it probably matters to you.

Who's assuming now? You assume I don't care, which isn't true. I absolutely do care. But I'm afraid you didn't make yourself at all clear in what you posted. I reflected back what you wrote and how it was worded, nothing more. I responded to the points you wrote and the language you used. I'd need a crystal ball to "know" you, your templates, tactics, pets and opinions and where they differed from your post. Just as you'd need one to know for sure what template I'd use for regular PvP.

Wenchy

 

[Old Man of UO]

QFT

Old man of UO thinks its griefing....LOL

To me it does sound like griefing, although I didn't say it was wrong. I just don't understand the "fun" in it as Darklo mentioned, and you failed to explain yourself. Once the tamer is dead, I see no difference between killing off the pet and rez killing.

So, what's the point? Just to delay the tamer from getting back into the PvP?

p.s. I guess that's why I never "got" PvP... I was always trying to help the other guy, even on the other side. It seems by your statements, you don't do that.

 

[LordDrago]

I can absolutely understand this being exploited in PvP.

However, auto log was put in place, I believe, in response to a specific bug which was causing bonded pets to go *poof* if a client crashed, or a character logged out while their pet was not stabled (I beleive there was also a stabling bug that *poofed* stabled pets, but I have not heard wbout that happening in quite a long while - maybe it got fixed). Anyway, removing the auto log fromt he game, will likely bring back this bug, which, in my opinion, is a no go.

As I suggested before, perhaps an auto log timer of a couple of minutes, that would allow a crashed client/computer to be restarted, and also give, in PvP, a chance for a character to kill the pets before the auto log is activated. Then, if the creature is not dead after the timer expires, and the tamer has not logged back in, the pet is saved from *poofing*.

And if the PvPer cannot kill the pet within a couple of minutes, they should be happy that the auto log saved their butt.

 

[mjolnir131]

Really, who cares. In pvp the tamer dies, logs to prevent their "weapon" from losing stats. If every time the archer died his bow lost 0.1 in di/hld/hl/hf, etc. then it's balanced.

If pets stopped losing their trained skills every time they die, then the incentive to log/auto-stable is gone. Just rez it up.

If you're upset cause some peeps run a tamer template with Lore, Tame, and no Vet then bring up a thread advocating for a change to requirements for skills in taming/controlling a pet.

But if you advocate for that, be prepared.. as some tamers might find needing to invest say 360 skill points to run a pet that has been nerfed to uselessness rather unbalanced and call for either a buffing of say gd's or a nerfing of say dps of bows, blades, spells, etc.

Might be a logical argument if my bow got better with use not weaker.

 

[GL_Seller]

First of all to the guy that pvps with a mystic tamer and no resist. How do you heal ur pet when someone mana vamps u? Or let me guess u say all kill and wait for your mana to come back while the other person is fighting ur pet...

Also what the hell are you talking about not being able to get ur pet to the alter...I just took my tamer to destard(leaving his pet in my house) logged out logged in and my pet was at the alter...Hell on GL we have had people who put a tamer on a seperate account take to despise alter hide and log out when they log in their greater is on the alter.

I love the arguement that killing the pet is griefing. So u saying all kill target me is that griefing? I mean I know its ok when you sick ur pet on someone and they die but when your pets dieing u just log to save it. Seems fair enough.

The fix for this crap is simple. Your pet stays in game as long as you are in game. That means timeout. So if u log 2 minutes later ur pet will log.

 

[puni666]

To me it does sound like griefing, although I didn't say it was wrong. I just don't understand the "fun" in it as Darklo mentioned, and you failed to explain yourself. Once the tamer is dead, I see no difference between killing off the pet and rez killing.

So, what's the point? Just to delay the tamer from getting back into the PvP?

p.s. I guess that's why I never "got" PvP... I was always trying to help the other guy, even on the other side. It seems by your statements, you don't do that.

It's not griefing, it's suppose to be the intended drawback of the template. Death of your pet means you can't res it since you lack the vet ability (in most pvp cases), and cumulative pet skill loss. If anyone's being griefed it's the people fighting the tamer that plan on attacking the pet, but OH WHERE DID IT GO?

 

[Capt.E]

I only have a few points to make:

1. Playing a PVP tamer is not as easy as you may think. It takes quite a bit of multitasking and focusing 2 objects on 1 target.

2. If you die to an All Kill tamer you should rethink playing UO. By all kill I mean tamer does nothing other than target pet.

3. Most people who run a no vet tamer have a more traditional tamer as well. So killing the pet is not that big a deal.

4. Almost all pvp tamer temps are missing defensive abilities. There are holes in many that most decent pvp'ers can drive a bus through.

5. If this change were to happen, most tamers I know would just take a different animal out.

6. The pets would have to be able to follow you at some point. They wander off all the time. Having all control slots full and no pet would be a very big issue. You can bet your ass gms would be recovering pets most of the day. So this means real issues would fall by the wayside.

 

[Llewen]

Maybe if the pet was a ghost it should be stabled (to reduce server lag which was the original intention of this pet logging thing), but if not it should have to suffer the normal skill reductions of being killed since there owner's not there to protect/heal it THEN stabled.

Maybe you should provide a link if you are going to make that kind of a ridiculous statement. Auto stabling has nothing to do with server lag, and everything to do with the fact that a pet out of sight of it's owner loses loyalty and goes wild fairly quickly.

It's more or less a way to possibly detour people from playing a skill less template to playing a more skillful one. Nothing super drastic but possibly a draw back that might make a player think twice on if they really want the ability to have the massive DPS a tamer character puts out.

You really don't know much about playing a pvp tamer, now do you? My "skill less" tamer is far more challenging to pvp with than any of my other templates. I'm more successful with my tamer, but that's only because I've spent thousands of more hours pvp'ing with my tamer than I have with all my other characters combined.

And if they did stop losing there skill that's fine.

If pets don't lose loyalty out of sight of their owner, and don't lose stats on death, I have no problem with getting rid of auto stabling. But until those two things are changed, auto stabling should stay.

And if you kill the tamer, and presumable loot his or her corpse, isn't that punishment enough? My guess is you didn't kill the tamer and this is one of those die on the battlefield, cry on the forums posts...

 

[Llewen]

And I should also add, if you kill the tamer you may have to survive the angry pet, but once that is done if the tamer is in factions you won't have to face that pet for twenty minutes. Tamers can't control pets when they are in stat, the best they can do is ride them.

 

[puni666]

My "skill less" tamer is far more challenging to pvp with than any of my other templates. I'm more successful with my tamer, but that's only because I've spent thousands of more hours pvp'ing with my tamer than I have with all my other characters combined.

You prove my point. Easier/overpowering = more success.

Lets see here Skill point wise we have 720 Character + 700 pet = 1420 - 240 for Lore/taming = 1180

HP wise you've got the character's 120(on average) + 600-900 HP for the pet that's about 720-1020 (depending on if it's a dread mare or GD)

I'd say you need a hefty drawback to the template... or should I keep putting other stats out there.

 

[maroite]

You prove my point. Easier/overpowering = more success.

Lets see here Skill point wise we have 720 Character + 700 pet = 1420 - 240 for Lore/taming = 1180

HP wise you've got the character's 120(on average) + 600-900 HP for the pet that's about 720-1020 (depending on if it's a dread mare or GD)

I'd say you need a hefty drawback to the template... or should I keep putting other stats out there.

....

wow... hahaha

 

[Capt.E]

There are drawbacks to playing a PVP tamer. I have stated a few. Tamers are actually fairly soft targets because of heavy skill investment to control their pet.

If you haven't figured out how to kill a dragon or mare, or for that matter a tamer; you are doing something wrong.

 

[maroite]

There are drawbacks to playing a PVP tamer. I have stated a few. Tamers are actually fairly soft targets because of heavy skill investment to control their pet.

If you haven't figured out how to kill a dragon or mare, or for that matter a tamer; you are doing something wrong.

Or if you haven't figured out how to out run a dragon on foot... and avoid it in general... well

I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Yalp]

Might be a logical argument if my bow got better with use not weaker.

Might be a fair argument if you start with a bow at 1 in the following mods:
Velocity, Balance, HL, HLD, SSI..(or whatever your choice)

You work for days on end with that bow, working the stats up to their max. Of course every time you die during "bow" training you go back 1. Of course you can't just stand afk and kill mongbats all day.. have to take on the big boys if you want to really max it out so hit up those balrons and lich lords.. but be careful.. you might find it tough going and die more than you actually get trained.

Ok your bow is all stat'd up and you run out to the pvp field... oops you run into a gank squad.. now your bow is -1 in every stat... well it will have to do cause your guild is doing a harry and you are needed. Oops.. die 5 more times during the harry fight.. now your poor bow is -6 in its stats..

Oh .. each and every time you die, pvp, pvm, to guard whack, self suicide, or to the hands of others, your bow drops 1 in every stat..

And oh, if you aren't careful it will stop shooting for you altogether cause you forgot to feed it and now it's wild!

** If you want to use a special move with your bow.. well you'll have to wait it out.. for the bow to decide when and if it wants to do so.. too bad if you need it right at that special moment to prevent your opponent from running off to heal.. better luck next time.

Now that's balance.

 

[Yalp]

You're nuts man, havent been around long have you? You hide behind pets. Your arguement is flawed, you really believe that crap? First off, weapons of any kind have durability, mages get disrupted. Even though most pets used in PvP are magical, how often do you see them fizzle? Exactly, you never do.

I have two tamers, one on GL thats being worked, not once have I killed someone with it.

Um No and no.. mages can prevent themselves from being interrupted.. and weapons can be powdered ad nauseaum.

 

[maroite]

Plausable, I guess? Haha, so you claim all kills that your greater dragons dishes out? The only good nerf that tamers got was years back when they added control slots. Bonding wasn't needed back in the day at all, if you lost your pet to death go tame another. Bonding was added because of all the crying that it wasnt fair because of insurance.

Now really think about it. Tamers was overpowering when they could run around 10+ dragons, fixed that. Now they're overpowering again with pets that cast, have special abilities. So really in the end tamers are more overpowering because of the specs and casting compared to other pvpers, lets say who wants to use mortal or bleed, or what ever the heck your pets spec is, he would have to have the 80+ skill in that mastery to do what your pet is doing, when YOU yourself don't have a lick of melee combat skills.

Actually no. Obviously you don't play the same game as I or you would know if a person wanted to use different weapons specials he could just imbue "UBWS" on the weapon and there you go. Any weapon, any melee skill.

Skills that pets use are also completely random. I think my GD has caused bleed in PvP maybe twice its entire life. If I had the ability to decide when my pet used a special ability, maybe that would be over powering, but I don't.

 

[Mistura]

To me it does sound like griefing, although I didn't say it was wrong. I just don't understand the "fun" in it as Darklo mentioned, and you failed to explain yourself. Once the tamer is dead, I see no difference between killing off the pet and rez killing.

So, what's the point? Just to delay the tamer from getting back into the PvP?

p.s. I guess that's why I never "got" PvP... I was always trying to help the other guy, even on the other side. It seems by your statements, you don't do that.

hehe, if your trying to "help the other guy" in PvP your not doing yourself any favours and your prob going to be hindering your team mates something fierce, so I don't think you would be the most popular person in your guild...

Anyhow, the part in bold is a very good reason you would kill their pet, if they have to then go and find a vet or log another account with a vet to res the thing, thats time your getting on with your battle without some newb trying to PvM you to death.

I just found it funny how you say killing their pet is in some way "Griefing". Its not far away from the school of thought that attacking another player in fel is griefing, which I guess some people actually believe, despite the fact its a PvP zone and anyone who enters gives their consent.

 

[dukarlo]

Heck, some people cried on these forums because they were getting pies thrown at em so its no surprise people cry because its suggested that the exploit of saving pets by abusing mechanics is fixed. There is no other way around it. Auto logging is being exploited.

 

[Luke Carjacker]

To me it's pretty simple. Shutting down your client as fast as you can in order to save your pet is not an intended part of the game. You should log off when you're done playing, or when you want to switch characters. Not so you can save yourself the trouble of having to rez your pet.

Pets should have the same insta-log requirements as people. Safe log out area (inn or home or camping I guess), and not flagged or aggro.

 

[Derium of ls]

completely reminds me of the "diablo 2 trick" people would do on hardcore mode, just exit right before you die, saves your character. And I have to agree, if the player can't log out instantly, either should the pet.

 

[chuckoatl]

this could be the silliest arguement ever........ who really cares?

 

[Derium of ls]

*looks at the above 83 posts* I think they do.

 

[Old Man of UO]

hehe, if your trying to "help the other guy" in PvP your not doing yourself any favours and your prob going to be hindering your team mates something fierce, so I don't think you would be the most popular person in your guild...

Anyhow, the part in bold is a very good reason you would kill their pet, if they have to then go and find a vet or log another account with a vet to res the thing, thats time your getting on with your battle without some newb trying to PvM you to death.

I just found it funny how you say killing their pet is in some way "Griefing". Its not far away from the school of thought that attacking another player in fel is griefing, which I guess some people actually believe, despite the fact its a PvP zone and anyone who enters gives their consent.

Thanks for the useful response.

As far as the "Guild" not liking me helping the other side, it was my original "Guild" that taught me to help the other side get back into the battle and NOT to kill off pets once the tamer was dead. Of curse back then we didn't have pet bonding. The goal back then was for everyone to have fun and teach each other how to survive and do well. We had guild wars with over a hundred players, with a few on the sidelines to resurrect players from BOTH sides. You say that is wrong, and we disagree on that point.

This attitude of punishing the loser is in a large part what's wrong with PvP in Ultima, which the l33t PvP'ers and the Developers can't seem to understand. You want players to participate in PvP but then punish them when they don't do well. In the case of this topic, it's not enough punishment to kill and loot the player but you also want to kill off the pet. Sooner or later, probably sooner, that player is going to get discouraged and stop playing in PvP.

Some say that Tamers and pets shouldn't be in PvP anyway (who also ignore that they are riding their pets into battle), so I assume that means they only want Dexxers and Mages and other templates they can easily defeat in PvP. Anytime they lose they complain... loudly.

Sure, you should get rewarded for doing well but why punish the other player by killing off the pet after he is dead? Why not just say, "Good battle, Dude. Let's do it again," and start over. Or do you just want to drive the competition off the field... forever? I have no problem rewarding the victor, but punishing the loser ultimately will stop playing and soon you have no one to PvP against. That's pretty much the state of PvP now. But don't blame the items or cheat programs, blame the player attitudes and this concept of punishing the loser. Players that want to PvP fairly and consider that everyone should have fun don't need to cheat.

So ya... I see killing off the pet after the Tamer is dead griefing. Not because it's against the TOS or game mechanics, but because you don't need to. In the long run it's bad for the PvP and UO community. Be a bit nicer to your opponent and you might be surprised at the friends you make and have someone to do battle against in the future.

 

[Mistura]

Interesting post old man, I can see what you are saying. This whole helping your enemies thing is like an ideal world vision for UO.

The reality of the situation is different. Fel is full of players who would like to see their enemys die, rage, delete their own characters and close their accounts. At least they think thats what they want, but if it actually happened they would be gutted as there would be nobody left to fight.

I would love to see a psychologist do a study on the mentality of the players that take part in the UO PvP scene, it would make for very interesting reading.

 

[maroite]

Thanks for the useful response.

As far as the "Guild" not liking me helping the other side, it was my original "Guild" that taught me to help the other side get back into the battle and NOT to kill off pets once the tamer was dead. Of curse back then we didn't have pet bonding. The goal back then was for everyone to have fun and teach each other how to survive and do well. We had guild wars with over a hundred players, with a few on the sidelines to resurrect players from BOTH sides. You say that is wrong, and we disagree on that point.

This attitude of punishing the loser is in a large part what's wrong with PvP in Ultima, which the l33t PvP'ers and the Developers can't seem to understand. You want players to participate in PvP but then punish them when they don't do well. In the case of this topic, it's not enough punishment to kill and loot the player but you also want to kill off the pet. Sooner or later, probably sooner, that player is going to get discouraged and stop playing in PvP.

Some say that Tamers and pets shouldn't be in PvP anyway (who also ignore that they are riding their pets into battle), so I assume that means they only want Dexxers and Mages and other templates they can easily defeat in PvP. Anytime they lose they complain... loudly.

Sure, you should get rewarded for doing well but why punish the other player by killing off the pet after he is dead? Why not just say, "Good battle, Dude. Let's do it again," and start over. Or do you just want to drive the competition off the field... forever? I have no problem rewarding the victor, but punishing the loser ultimately will stop playing and soon you have no one to PvP against. That's pretty much the state of PvP now. But don't blame the items or cheat programs, blame the player attitudes and this concept of punishing the loser. Players that want to PvP fairly and consider that everyone should have fun don't need to cheat.

So ya... I see killing off the pet after the Tamer is dead griefing. Not because it's against the TOS or game mechanics, but because you don't need to. In the long run it's bad for the PvP and UO community. Be a bit nicer to your opponent and you might be surprised at the friends you make and have someone to do battle against in the future.

Good post.

It seems a lot of "pro pvpers" feel slighted if they die to a pet in pvp though, which is probably why posts like this get made.

Killing a pet gives you nothing. Killing a pet which doesn't have its master their to aid it is not PvP, its PvM and there is no challenge in it.

Which to me means that the only reason people would want to specifically kill pets in PvP is to grief. There is no other reason why you would bother killing someones pet. Invising/hiding clears the agro and a dead tamer can't tell the pet to attack again.

Maybe they should make it so pets don't get auto stabled if the tamer logs out while dead, but maybe they should also make pets ressed by a GM or higher Vet skill regain all lost stats, AND 100+ vet should give any pets under the control of said person bonus to resists/stats. Would make true tamers more powerful, and fix the heavily loaded "pvp tamers" saving their pets.

But before they even begin to mess with that, they need to fix the other glaring problems with pets, like pathing (getting stuck on a house corner instead of pathing around it?) and the problems with pets being lost when dead/crashing.

 

[Llewen]

My "skill less" tamer is far more challenging to pvp with than any of my other templates. I'm more successful with my tamer, but that's only because I've spent thousands of more hours pvp'ing with my tamer than I have with all my other characters combined.

You prove my point. Easier/overpowering = more success.

And you appear to have a reading comprehension problem. I'm more successful with my tamer because I've spent more on my tamer's suit than I have on all my other characters' combined, in terms of time, gold and resources. I'm more successful with my tamer in pvp because I am a skilled and highly experienced pvp tamer and I've spent more time pvp'ing with my tamer than all of my other characters combined.

I am not more successful with my tamer because my tamer is easier to play. One indication of how challenging a template is to play is the number of macros and keybinds you regularly use while playing it. I use more than twenty keybinds and desktop icons all the time (I can use desktop icons effectively in pvp because I use my G13 thumb joystick to move). If you include all the ones that I use less often, the number is easily double that.

Lets see here Skill point wise we have 720 Character + 700 pet = 1420 - 240 for Lore/taming = 1180

HP wise you've got the character's 120(on average) + 600-900 HP for the pet that's about 720-1020 (depending on if it's a dread mare or GD)

I'd say you need a hefty drawback to the template... or should I keep putting other stats out there.

And once again, your analysis just displays your ignorance. It takes no skill to play a pvp tamer badly, and die all the time, and if you want to start including the hit points and skills of pets, summons and hirelings in the equation, every single template has access to pets, summons and hirelings, some of which are fairly powerful. The tamer's options are obviously the most powerful, but that is a choice that every player makes when they build a template, you gain in some areas, and you sacrifice in others.

I've said all this before, but it bears repeating because the tamer haters keep repeating the same nonsense. The real indication of whether a template is over powered or not is how many you see in pvp. There is no question there are a lot of hybrid tamers in pvp, that is tamers without the full tamer skill set, but there really aren't any more of them than there are of any other pvp template. I still see lots of archers, and mages. I probably see fewer "pure" dexxers than I do other templates, but some of the most successful pvp'rs I know play dexxers.

I see very few, extremely few, "pure" tamers. By "pure" tamers, I mean tamers with the full tamer skills set. And I see even fewer "pure" tamers that are actually successful. Most of the successful tamers that I see are hybrid tamers, and very few, if any of them, regularly use greater dragons. Greater dragons are used successfully in pvp in very specific contexts (such as spawns where their primary purpose really isn't pvp), and there are always ways of dealing with them, just as there are with the strengths and weaknesses of any template.

And for the record, I play a "pure" tamer. I am the only one I know of that regularly pvp's on my shard, and I very rarely use either a greater dragon, or a dread mare, even though I have both available to me, and the ones I have available to me are among the best on the shard in terms of their stats, and they are fully trained.

Now again I have to add the usual caveat. Everything I have said applies to regular production shards. It doesn't apply to either Siege or Mugen. From what I understand there are still some problems with tamers in pvp there, and they are still dominant. On those shards I'll repeat what I have said many times, a bonded pet should count as your "Siege blessed" item. Putting aside all sentimentality, a pet is a piece of equipment just like any other piece of equipment, and it should be treated in the rules set as such. Pets do have certain unique features, but that is true of any piece of equipment, or class of equipment.

I could provide a long list of the benefits and drawbacks of pets, and compare them to the benefits and drawbacks of other pieces of equipment, but this post is already long enough, and it has all been said before. The simple truth is if a skilled pvp'r gets beaten by a tamer, it is generally because that tamer is a skilled tamer, an unskilled tamer will generally die very quickly to a skilled pvp'r playing any pvp template, and that is the way it should be. And this is true in both one on one situations, and in group pvp.

Most often though what I see on Stratics is tamer haters that don't want to ever lose to a tamer, in any situation. If you pin them down they will tell you that they will kill a tamer one on one far more often than a tamer will kill them, but they don't ever want to lose to a tamer. And what is even funnier is the number of times I have seen tamer haters complain about losing to tamers when they are outnumbered. I find it highly amusing when tamer haters start complaining about how over powered tamers are when they died to a tamer when they were outnumbered three to one or more. And again, when you pin them down, they will tell you they win more often than they lose against tamers one on one.

Tamers are a part of pvp in UO, just like all kinds of summons, pets and hirelings are. Get over it. And it takes just as much skill to play a tamer in pvp, as it does any template. And in my opinion it often takes more, because not only are you playing as a mage, or a dexxer, or an archer, but you also have a fairly stupid pet to control and keep alive on top of that. I don't play a tamer in pvp because it is "uber" or "op". I play a tamer in pvp because I find it challenging and interesting, and there is always something new to learn. Almost every battle is different, and in almost every battle I learn something. I may win more often than I lose now, but that is because I know what I am doing, and trust me, when I was less experienced and less skilled, I died all the time, in all kinds of unique and embarrassing ways. But I had fun then, even when I died, just as I have fun now.

 

[Lynk]

And you appear to have a reading comprehension problem. I'm more successful with my tamer because I've spent more on my tamer's suit than I have on all my other characters' combined, in terms of time, gold and resources. I'm more successful with my tamer in pvp because I am a skilled and highly experienced pvp tamer and I've spent more time pvp'ing with my tamer than all of my other characters combined.

I am not more successful with my tamer because my tamer is easier to play. One indication of how challenging a template is to play is the number of macros and keybinds you regularly use while playing it. I use more than twenty keybinds and desktop icons all the time (I can use desktop icons effectively in pvp because I use my G13 thumb joystick to move). If you include all the ones that I use less often, the number is easily double that.



And once again, your analysis just displays your ignorance. It takes no skill to play a pvp tamer badly, and die all the time, and if you want to start including the hit points and skills of pets, summons and hirelings in the equation, every single template has access to pets, summons and hirelings, some of which are fairly powerful. The tamer's options are obviously the most powerful, but that is a choice that every player makes when they build a template, you gain in some areas, and you sacrifice in others.

I've said all this before, but it bears repeating because the tamer haters keep repeating the same nonsense. The real indication of whether a template is over powered or not is how many you see in pvp. There is no question there are a lot of hybrid tamers in pvp, that is tamers without the full tamer skill set, but there really aren't any more of them than there are of any other pvp template. I still see lots of archers, and mages. I probably see fewer "pure" dexxers than I do other templates, but some of the most successful pvp'rs I know play dexxers.

I see very few, extremely few, "pure" tamers. By "pure" tamers, I mean tamers with the full tamer skills set. And I see even fewer "pure" tamers that are actually successful. Most of the successful tamers that I see are hybrid tamers, and very few, if any of them, regularly use greater dragons. Greater dragons are used successfully in pvp in very specific contexts (such as spawns where their primary purpose really isn't pvp), and there are always ways of dealing with them, just as there are with the strengths and weaknesses of any template.

And for the record, I play a "pure" tamer. I am the only one I know of that regularly pvp's on my shard, and I very rarely use either a greater dragon, or a dread mare, even though I have both available to me, and the ones I have available to me are among the best on the shard in terms of their stats, and they are fully trained.

Now again I have to add the usual caveat. Everything I have said applies to regular production shards. It doesn't apply to either Siege or Mugen. From what I understand there are still some problems with tamers in pvp there, and they are still dominant. On those shards I'll repeat what I have said many times, a bonded pet should count as your "Siege blessed" item. Putting aside all sentimentality, a pet is a piece of equipment just like any other piece of equipment, and it should be treated in the rules set as such. Pets do have certain unique features, but that is true of any piece of equipment, or class of equipment.

I could provide a long list of the benefits and drawbacks of pets, and compare them to the benefits and drawbacks of other pieces of equipment, but this post is already long enough, and it has all been said before. The simple truth is if a skilled pvp'r gets beaten by a tamer, it is generally because that tamer is a skilled tamer, an unskilled tamer will generally die very quickly to a skilled pvp'r playing any pvp template, and that is the way it should be. And this is true in both one on one situations, and in group pvp.

Most often though what I see on Stratics is tamer haters that don't want to ever lose to a tamer, in any situation. If you pin them down they will tell you that they will kill a tamer one on one far more often than a tamer will kill them, but they don't ever want to lose to a tamer. And what is even funnier is the number of times I have seen tamer haters complain about losing to tamers when they are outnumbered. I find it highly amusing when tamer haters start complaining about how over powered tamers are when they died to a tamer when they were outnumbered three to one or more. And again, when you pin them down, they will tell you they win more often than they lose against tamers one on one.

Tamers are a part of pvp in UO, just like all kinds of summons, pets and hirelings are. Get over it. And it takes just as much skill to play a tamer in pvp, as it does any template. And in my opinion it often takes more, because not only are you playing as a mage, or a dexxer, or an archer, but you also have a fairly stupid pet to control and keep alive on top of that. I don't play a tamer in pvp because it is "uber" or "op". I play a tamer in pvp because I find it challenging and interesting, and there is always something new to learn. Almost every battle is different, and in almost every battle I learn something. I may win more often than I lose now, but that is because I know what I am doing, and trust me, when I was less experienced and less skilled, I died all the time, in all kinds of unique and embarrassing ways. But I had fun then, even when I died, just as I have fun now.

All I got out of that was "all kill".

 

[Vexxed]

WOW just Wow...

1st off... I agree with the OP on this subject & think that pets shouldn't be able to instant log out in PvP .. specifically when their Master has already died & they can continue to be effective on the field.. If you can't Hide / Invis or there's any use of fields then a G. Drag / D. Mare can be quite a pita...

Llewen Said:

And it takes just as much skill to play a tamer in pvp, as it does any template. And in my opinion it often takes more, because not only are you playing as a mage, or a dexxer, or an archer, but you also have a fairly stupid pet to control and keep alive on top of that.

I'd personally have to say the above is complete fiction.... With the push of a Single Button... "All kill" The Tamer engages UO PET AI which then takes over.. Imagine if you had to control your pet as if it was a player..

Movement
Healing
Curing
Mosnter Spellcasting (2-3 spells at a time with no range check)
Breath Weapon attacks

etc..

This is the "Skill" you speak of? All kill.. and you get Freebie PvP.. Doesn't count ... Id have to Say that if DreadMares weren't so OP there woudln't really be a problem.. At least Slayers for the other's exists.. but the simple fact that you can REMOVE your D. Mare from being a valid Target whenever the tamer feels like it simply by mounting means it's only exposed when it's at a huge advantage to the Tamer... Anyway........

 

[Llewen]

All I got out of that was "all kill".

Did you think about that witty response before you posted? Because you clearly didn't think about what I posted...

I'd personally have to say the above is complete fiction.... With the push of a Single Button... "All kill" The Tamer engages UO PET AI which then takes over.. Imagine if you had to control your pet as if it was a player..

Typical tamer hater ignorance and BS. If you think that all there is to pvp'ing with a pet is "All Kill", then you know nothing about pvp'ing as a tamer. As I already said, it takes no skill to attempt to pvp, and die because you suck, as a tamer. As is the case with any template.

Let's go back to facts. I have over twenty macros, keybinds and desktop icons that I use all the time, as in virtually every pvp battle, while pvp'ing with my pets. How many do you use in a typical pvp battle? Try and respond honestly if you can manage it.

One of those is the infamous "all kill" command, but even that command isn't simple, it is a macro that includes two distinct pet commands, and the targeting options that go with them.

There is a huge difference between fighting a skilled tamer, and a tamer with no skill. And again, I am the only tamer that I know of on my shard that pvp's as a pure tamer, with the full tamer skills set. Humans almost always take the path of least resistance. If the way I pvp'd was so easy, and so op, I can guarantee you there would be an awful lot more people doing what I do. As it is I've seen a few people try to do what I do, most of them give up after one or two tries.

Even tamer hybrids aren't a dominate template when it comes to the raw percentages that are pvp'ing. And again, if it was so easy, and so op, I can guarantee you that that is all you would ever see. There are a number that play tamer hybrids on my shard, but those templates are nowhere near the dominant template.

And before someone says, "I've seen you pvp, and you suck", I've learnt an awful lot in the past few months, and I have come light years in terms of my abilities as a pvp'r since I came back to UO. Feel free to come to Yew gate any time in the evening EST on Catskills. Heaven knows that things are a bit dead right now, and I could use some excitement.

And better yet, if you think tamers take no skill to play and are all about "all kill", go get yourself a dread mare, or a greater dragon, and come with one of those in tow. I absolutely love schooling 733t peeveep'rs who think pvp'ing as a tamer takes no skill and are out to prove a point, almost nothing in game makes me happier...

 

[Wenchkin]

Llewen, if taming PvP was as hard and fraught as some of you guys claimed, you wouldn't be doing it I don't think tamer PvP is easy peasy, but I see molehills being turned into mountains each time a threat looms over the horizon of PvP tamingville.

Tamer PvP difficulty isn't relevant to this issue. If you are logging out to prevent a pet from dying, that's not what the autlogging feature was intended for. If we were meant to log out to save our pets, why would there be resurrection or bonding? Why would NPC vets resurrect pets whos owners had no vet skill? In fact, why didn't they just make pets log out the minute we die to save us logging out to protect them. Better still the devs could just give them an invulnerability tag. I would hope you're drawing the obvious conclusions by this point.

Autologging was created so a player who crashed or dropped connection wouldn't risk losing their pet if they couldn't get back in game in a timely fashion. Not so a PvPer could opt out of the intended consequence of his loss in battle. A battle they *chose* to enter given that they took their pets into Fel and onto the battlefield. If a PvMer takes on far more spawn than they can handle, it wasn't intended that they autolog their pets and get away with such a tactical failure. There are very clear systems in place for pet resurrection and skill penalties when pets die. That says they're actually designed to die and be resurrected, not logged out.

So, autologging is being abused probably more than it's being used appropriately. Regardless of whether you think this adds unfair difficulty to your experience PvPing in Fel, it needs to be fixed.

Wenchy

 

[Llewen]

Tamer PvP difficulty isn't relevant to this issue. If you are logging out to prevent a pet from dying, that's not what the autlogging feature was intended for.

It's a good thing you have that direct link to the devs that you do, and they make sure they tell you what their "real intentions" are for every feature, so you can pass it on to us mere mortals. *genuflects appropriately*

Llewen, if taming PvP was as hard and fraught as some of you guys claimed, you wouldn't be doing it

oooo, now there was a stinging personal insult if I ever saw one. It's Llewen, and he plays a pvp tamer, so clearly he has no skill. And I'm clearly an idiot, and lazy to boot, so it just logically follows that I would take the easy way out.

It's Llewen, his account is what, a month old? And even if it's older than that, he clearly isn't smart enough to realize that everything he does is easy, and completely lacking in challenge, so he doesn't ever get bored.

It's Llewen, he's been pvp'ing now for what, a week? What does he know? Once he's been playing for a year or two, maybe he'll learn and start playing a "real" pvp template. *pffft* probably, not, he's not that smart, he's too old, slow and stupid to participate in "real" pvp.

*pfffft* Nice suit Llewen! It's a good thing you're a tamer and you don't need a real suit! Just slap on the old 100% lrc, and a couple of taming jewels, and you're good to go! Hell, he's such an idiot that before imbuing, he didn't even use lrc! The boys used to loot regs off of him all the time! We lol'd all teh way to the trash barrel! Poor Llewen, can't cast greater heal now! But Llewen's only been pvp'ing for a week, that must have been another Llewen...

Is that about the size of it Wenchy? And I'm sure the same goes for the thousands of other pvp tamers that do exactly what I do, because what I do is so easy, there are literally thousands of them, except for of course the few "real" pvp'rs that have to put up with the millions of tamers "all kill"ing on them all the time.

I've already said it. You get rid of skill loss on death, and get rid of loyalty loss when out of range, I have no problem with getting rid auto stable.

 

[Vexxed]

OK let me make an orderly reply to you Llewen....

What was Suggested..
-Remove auto loggin of pets in PvP or at least adjust it so that a Tamer cannot let his pet FIGHT until redlined & then avoid the consequences of it dieing by loggin it out.

My Take on your REASON why something akin to the suggested change SHOULDN'T be implemented..
- Tamers are a difficult & skilled class to play & as such anything that makes it the Template Harder to play or less effective isn't needed.

Where I disagree with you.....

Tamers ARE NOT a difficult & skilled class to play.. In Any given fight your pets are all performing Many Many MANY actions simply with the use of the All kill or All guard me commands... These are actions that are benefitting you WITHOUT your input. For every 1 "All kill" command given I'd hazard a guess that 20 or more "actions" get performed by the AI....

"all kill"
Pet casts
Pets Cast
Pets moves to follow
Pet Melee Hits
Pet Firebreaths

You get the drift... The simply FACT that by issuing 1 Command your pet can perform litterally hundreds of actions for you is Why I call a Tamer no Skill. THUS.. bc a Dread Mare is currently so OP and the template requires LESS skill to play a change that weakens it by fixxing Auto loggin in PvP is wanted & needed....

Btw... I have 28 Macros on my Scribe Mage & that doesn't count Last spell & screen Icons (Fields / EQ / Demons etc)

 

[Yalp]

If you are logging out to prevent a pet from dying, that's not what the autlogging feature was intended for. If we were meant to log out to save our pets, why would there be resurrection or bonding?....So, autologging is being abused probably more than it's being used appropriately. Regardless of whether you think this adds unfair difficulty to your experience PvPing in Fel, it needs to be fixed.

Wenchy

A whole palate of items can be identified which are not being used as the developers intented when it was implemented.

... Tboxes..not designed to circumvent parafields.
... "bagballs", tboxes, or any other item used to physically block access
... house designs which allow you to safely attack from inside
....waterbarrels not designed to create a chokepoint
.. faction bases providing safe shelter for faction toons while flagged *to non-faction pvp'rs
... etc.etc.
.. isn't that the glory of sandbox type games?

So the question isn't... Hey that's not what the developers meant when they did that.. so naughty on you!.... the question becomes.. does it create unfair game play or unbalance the system? Which presents *when looked at objectively* a much different analysis.

 

[puni666]

All I got out of that was "all kill".

Ditto

 

[puni666]

Nothing ever gets fixed all at once. You take one thing then fix it... then see what trickles out next and fix that, rinse and repeat...The quicker we point on the flaws of this game and get them fixed the faster people switch there templates to the next flavor of the month template with the greatest amount of flaws. Then guess what.. we get that fixed next! It's been going on since the beginning of UO. Don't be upset your flaw is being pointed out.

 

[Llewen]

Let's get this out of the way first.

Btw... I have 28 Macros on my Scribe Mage & that doesn't count Last spell & screen Icons (Fields / EQ / Demons etc)

I said over 20 macros that I use all the time, as in virtually every pvp battle, and I didn't include all the area effects that I use less often. I have well over forty if I were to include all of them. But regardless of whether I have 22 and you have 28, and even if you did mean that you use those macros all the time, at the very least I use pretty close to the same number that you do. That's an awful lot for a template that only needs "all kill" isn't it?

Tamers ARE NOT a difficult & skilled class to play.. In Any given fight your pets are all performing Many Many MANY actions simply with the use of the All kill or All guard me commands... These are actions that are benefitting you WITHOUT your input. For every 1 "All kill" command given I'd hazard a guess that 20 or more "actions" get performed by the AI....

"all kill"
Pet casts
Pets Cast
Pets moves to follow
Pet Melee Hits
Pet Firebreaths

You get the drift... The simply FACT that by issuing 1 Command your pet can perform litterally hundreds of actions for you is Why I call a Tamer no Skill. THUS.. bc a Dread Mare is currently so OP and the template requires LESS skill to play a change that weakens it by fixxing Auto loggin in PvP is wanted & needed....

And it's simply a FACT that every other player template has access to mobiles that will do the same, some can be dispelled but some of the most powerful can't. So why don't you see absolutely every pvp'r out there with a vollem or two in tow? Why aren't they virtually required for anyone to win a pvp battle?

I'll tell you why, because pets in general aren't as powerful as you make them out to be, and they aren't as easy to control and use effectively as you make them out to be either. If they were, absolutely every pvp'r would use them, all the time.

You say that dread warhorses are over powered. I'll let you in on a secret, I don't use them, other than in very specific contexts, because they have some real disadvantages. The first being that you have to dismount to make use of them.

And in general dread warhorses are, in my opinion, the most overrated pet in the game. I rarely die to a dread warhorse, unless it is part of a gank squad and I'm seriously outnumbered. And even then, it isn't generally the dread that gets me.

 

[Llewen]

Nothing ever gets fixed all at once. You take one thing then fix it... then see what trickles out next and fix that, rinse and repeat...The quicker we point on the flaws of this game and get them fixed the faster people switch there templates to the next flavor of the month template with the greatest amount of flaws. Then guess what.. we get that fixed next! It's been going on since the beginning of UO. Don't be upset your flaw is being pointed out.

And that's it exactly isn't it? Don't stop until tamers are completely removed from pvp, and maybe, if you're lucky, eventually, the entire game. All I can say is, I hope that the devs actually pay attention to what is really going on in the game in pvp, and not just to the whinings of the typical UO tamer hater.

In fact, I don't even mind if they absolutely never read or pay attention to anything I say either, in spite of my years of experience, and the hundreds of hours, literally, that I have spent pvp'ing. As long as they pay attention to what actually is happening in game.

If they did they would see that tamers are not the dominant template in pvp. If they did they would see that while dread warhorses are the fotm when it comes to hybrid tamers, they aren't actually any more successful than tamers riding cu sidhe, or hiryus. In fact, in my personal experience, the nastiest tamer I have seen in the past few months doesn't use a dread warhorse, he uses a hiryu.

If the devs actually payed attention to what is going on in the game they would see that greater dragons are a situational pet, and there are very few greater dragons that are used regularly in pvp, and the few that do use them aren't all that successful. If the devs actually payed attention to what was going on in the game they would see that there are extremely few tamers who pvp with the full tamer skill set, and even fewer that do it successfully.

But the typical tamer hater doesn't particularly care about FACTS, or the truth, or what is actually going on in the game. The typical tamer hater just want tamers out of pvp entirely, and even better if they are completely gone from the game.

If the tamer haters ever accomplish either objective I for one will be cancelling my subs, because I will no longer be able to play the most challenging template in pvp that I have ever played, a template that has required the most practice, and the most preparation of any template I have ever played to be successful, that of the full skills set pvp tamer.