Tamers got Greater Dragons and the Dread Mares.....

[Hunters Moon]

I meant to say AND necro gets bonded undead based on skill. There, win for everyone.

Would that mean my legendary necro would be able to have a bonded "Collector of Souls"? That would be awsome.

 

[Glim Gerrack]

Current Arguments: [only arguments backed by significant empirical evidence]

Everyone Against Tamers:
1.Greater Dragons are over powered.
2.Dread Mares are over powered.
3.Tamers a whinny girls.
4.Tamers should go back to tram.
5.Wah Wah WAh
6.I can kill you on test.
7.I can kill you on any shard.
8.Wana Duel?
9.
10.??????
11.Profit.

Tamers:
1.We Suck at PvP.
2.Tamers are hard....
3.If you know how to pvp you can kill me.
4.Its always been this way.
5.Change topic to archers.
6.Change topic to necro/mage/fielders
7.Wana Duel?
8.Quit whining
9.
10.??????
11.Profit.


........?

 

[Xin Law]

I got a question, under what circumstances are pvpers having to fight super dragons or super mares. If they are trying to pick fights in yew or around a guardzone, then just freaking leave until they get bored and go back to bank sitting. Except for that, the only other time you should have to fight them is if you go looking for them at a spawn or at a popular hunting area in fel, which falls back on "don't bite off more than you can chew" which usually leads to you getting your ass chewed. So, you dont like fighting super dragons, then stop attacking tamers that have them following them around. Its not like they can INSTANTLY summon them anymore, its kind of hard not to notice something that f'in big flying around killiing everything except the tamer. I mean are tamers running around on foot checking out spawn after spawn looking for reds doing despise?? What the hell is there to discuss about this, dont like dying to them, then dont freaking fight them. How hard is that?

 

[Llewen]

Current Arguments: [only arguments backed by significant empirical evidence]

Everyone Against Tamers:
1.Greater Dragons are over powered.
2.Dread Mares are over powered.
3.Tamers a whinny girls.
4.Tamers should go back to tram.
5.Wah Wah WAh
6.I can kill you on test.
7.I can kill you on any shard.
8.Wana Duel?
9.
10.??????
11.Profit.

Tamers:
1.We Suck at PvP.
2.Tamers are hard....
3.If you know how to pvp you can kill me.
4.Its always been this way.
5.Change topic to archers.
6.Change topic to necro/mage/fielders
7.Wana Duel?
8.Quit whining
9.
10.??????
11.Profit.


........?

Yes I can laugh at myself. Nice summary. Wana Duel?

 

[hawkeye_pike]

How is it I can last 5 , 10, 15 minutes vs that Greater Dragon and NOT DIE and you with a UBER set of resitance and all kinds of UBER mods can NOT last 30 seconds? I get hit. I get Fire Breath'd. I get para'd. I get poisoned. I get teleported on to. I get "Greater Dragon is in FULL RUN MODE"'d. I get all the things you see, and some YOU DON'T see, from a WEAKER Greater Dragon and I do not die. WHY IS THAT?

That, honestly, I cannot believe. With my 130 health point character, Gift of Renewal running and 70 Resist on all categories, I do not last longer than 20 seconds against a Greater Dragon. One bite, one or two fire breaths, I am dead.

You say that you last up to 15 minutes against him with 45 physical resist. I want to see that, because I do not believe that.

That being said, I do not want tamers or Greater Dragons to be nerfed. It would just be nice for a change if tamers admit that their Dragons are very powerful. And concerning their speed: They just teleport to their victim. That's as fast as you can get.

 

[ColterDC]

It would just be nice for a change if tamers admit that their Dragons are very powerful.

It will never happen. They're afraid that if they ever admited that hitting an "all kill" macro and watching their pets kill everything for them was overpowered, the Dev's might wake up and hit tamers with a nerf stick and then all these no skill tamers would actually have to learn to play a real char.

The bottom line is this, I have invited 4 of the tamer lovers in this thread to come on test and try to kill me. The conditions of the test were they had to play a melee char and I would be a tamer with a GD. They all declined, usually with some lame excuse. But the truth is that they know they stand no chance in a fight against a GD.

And no it's not because I'm some uber leet PvPer, but I don't really have to be when I have a meat shield with a 1000 hit points that is capable of doing 100+ damage in a matter of seconds.

 

[Sarphus]

Well you are showing that you don't know about PvP again, because I have one of the best suits of armor in the game and when it comes to armor for survival and damage output, none compare to PvP suits.

My suit alone cost me at least 500 Mill in gold to make or get.

That's a very simplistic view of the UO combat system. Inacurate, but at least it's simple.

My pvp suits generally gain their survivability by maxing out resists and as many other mods as I can max out.

Some of my pvm suits gain survivability by maxing out damage and letting resist drop to levels well below what is considered competitive in pvp. I have not seen a pvper out-perform any of my pvm chars at pvm.

I have a character with several key resists (including fire btw) in the 50's that is very survivable and powerful in pvm. The reason is that he kills his target before he dies. That character can spike out around 150 SDI with the proper buffs, which effectively destroys the types of targets I kill with that character before they can do much of anything.

I have another character that has a completely unuseable pvp template and suit, but works VERY well in pvm vs single targets. The general strategy is to hit as hard as possible and leech back the damage I take. Again, a pvm strategy that doesn't work with a pvp suit.

There is no reason to go above the pvp damage caps on a pvp suit. There are lots of viable reasons to go over the pvp caps on a pvm suit.

Like I said, your comments oversimplify UO's combat system and are inaccurate. The UO combat system is very complicated, which is why it's pretty much impossible to completely balance.

I'm not saying you can't wear a pvp suit to pvm. What I am saying is that doing that means you aren't optimized for pvm. If you think your pvp suit is just as effective as my pvm suits, I am 100% convinced that I've figured out a lot of things that you haven't.

 

[Sarphus]

That, honestly, I cannot believe. With my 130 health point character, Gift of Renewal running and 70 Resist on all categories, I do not last longer than 20 seconds against a Greater Dragon. One bite, one or two fire breaths, I am dead.

You say that you last up to 15 minutes against him with 45 physical resist. I want to see that, because I do not believe that.

That being said, I do not want tamers or Greater Dragons to be nerfed. It would just be nice for a change if tamers admit that their Dragons are very powerful. And concerning their speed: They just teleport to their victim. That's as fast as you can get.

Just a suggestion. Try using attune weapon and see if your situation improves. With a lvl 6 focus and 4/6 casting, attune weapon is a FANTASTIC survival tool.

As a tamer (and everything else, I play pretty much all character types), I will admit that greater dragons are very powerful for some applications. I prefer 2 other pet combinations in pvp, and sometimes prefer 4 others in various contexts of pvp.

I like greater dragons for when I need a solid tank and can sacrifice some dmg output to get my tanking ability. My greater dragon is almost the pinnacle of what is possible for a greater dragon, and I still don't think they are overpowered for most applications. There are things that are supposed to be hard that are easy with a greater dragon, but there are also lots of things that are impossible (or close to impossible) with a greater dragon that are possible with other pets and EASY with non-tamer templates.

I'm not convinced that there is a serious balance issue with greater dragons. There may be a minor balance issue, but I don't think there's a major one. I can tell you this much, when I go out with my tamer-killer, all the greater dragons get stabled or killed

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

That, honestly, I cannot believe. With my 130 health point character, Gift of Renewal running and 70 Resist on all categories, I do not last longer than 20 seconds against a Greater Dragon. One bite, one or two fire breaths, I am dead.

You say that you last up to 15 minutes against him with 45 physical resist. I want to see that, because I do not believe that.

That being said, I do not want tamers or Greater Dragons to be nerfed. It would just be nice for a change if tamers admit that their Dragons are very powerful. And concerning their speed: They just teleport to their victim. That's as fast as you can get.

Seriously, put all the rhetoric and hatred aside (not directed at you or any one person, just a generalization)

Which gives the greater bragging rights.

Scenario 1:

They NERF'D Greater Dragons and I kicked that stupid tamers butt.

Scenario 2:

We all know how seriously over powered Greater Dragons ar but I kicked that stupid tamers butt anyway.

--------------------------

You can come watch me any time. BUT you WILL NOT see me go up to a Greater Dragon, Do the Tame Thing, Get the "You seem to anger the beast" message that tells the Greater Dragon I am one tasy In Between Meal Snack ... AND STAND THERE WAITING FOR HIM TO KILL ME. You WILL SEE ME ... move off a square or two and you MAY SEE ME RUNNING, Invis and return. YOU will hear the clash of weapons as I BLOCK the attack with my paltry 100 Magery Skill Swords of Prosperity. YOU will see me get the Fire Balls/Flame Strikes/Energy Bolt. YOU WILL see me resist them a LOT or YOU will see me very low on Health BUT MOSTLY you will see me in between.

YOU WILL SEE that if I 100% Fail to Block the physical attack, I will either be dead or I will be nearly dead bleeding profusely. IN the later case YOU WILL SEE ME RUNNING AND HIDE to lose Agro. Once that is done and if I am smart enough to remember were the heck all the Wyverns, Drakes, Dragons and other Greater Dragons are and STAY AWAY FROM THEM. You will see my 80% of the time manage to survive.

IF you have Lore you will see these Greater Dragons, even the Babies make the Greater Dragons you face in PvP look like .... Toys.

As to the Teleporting. Excuse me but you are talking to Tamers here. Believe it or not, some Tamers do PvM. Yeah maybe 1% of the time that GD will Teleport. No, I am not going to accept that 100% of the time that GD teleports, One hits, teleports, one hits, teleports, one hits. No, shame on you for even trying to suggest that to a Template that obviously knows better.

As you can not imagine me lasting 15 minutes vs a GD I can not see how any PvPr cant last more than 20 seconds vs one (factoring out the unlucky scenario of the Triple Whammy, that just isnt all that frequent).

The only way I can reconcile the statement is your wanting to run up to that Greater Dragon, smack it, go toe to toe and win.

If that is indeed the case, then we are not in the same ball park here.

Why wouldnt I just go whine about my UBER Greater Dragon can not last 20 Seconds vs a Yamadon. Why my UBER Greater Dragon can not go toe to toe vs the Beserker Deamon. Why my UBER Greater Dragon can not last vs a pathetic Skeletal Dragon. Why my UBER Dragon can not even beat a low life wuss Shadow Ore Elemental. In fact why dont I just generalize the whine and say anything I cant beat down needs to be consider over powered and nerf'd. That I DON'T want anything that is Dangerous to me, that I need to fear and run away from ... one on one.

Yeah a "Good" fight but I DON'T want to fear it, I DON'T want to lose to it. I DON'T want to need to think how to beat it.

In another thread on the old boards shortly after the GD's were introduced. LOTS of people were saying what a shame Dragons had been trivialized, how refreshing and nice it was to have a MoB that one needed to FEAR. How it enhanced the game etc.

Now we are at the stage of, WE DON'T WANT TO BE AFRAID.

 

[azmodanb]

IMO it's good to see new dragons out there... I remember back in the day just a normal dragon took a group of people to slay and we were all happy as pie to accomplish such a feet.

For a while there I was slaying a dragon in 1.5 hits.. overkilling them with two hits... (using a chiv/dragon slayer temp) .. it's nice to have something a bit more challenging IMO of course. A dragon should be "hard" ya it sucks to die to a tamer in fel... people laugh, you get upset, of course yell "you got no skill tamer noob trammie etc" but you know dont fight them then. I am not a tamer, have one cuz well with 6 slots why not? But I just play my main mage 99% of the time ... it's silly to "hate" new things added to the game IMO .. a new challenge is nice.

If you really hate the tamer in fel, which is the soul reason for most of the ranting in this thread, gank him. Or para the dragon, and kill the tamer yourself. Or just leave and dont play his games.

Most of the hatred of tamers comes from the "all kill" in pvp situations ... you have to hit more buttons ... so what? You choose to play that template as they choose to play a pvp tamer. If everyone was a mage this game would not be as exciting.

We can praise change, or rant about it so much nothing gets done. I told my wife of the new dragons, and whatnot ..(she is a tamer) .. she was stoked! I pvp, or do the merchant thing ... but I wont bag on any tamer i see at the moongate. There are always ways to get around it .. either use "tactics" ... or just dont play there game... or GANK! Those are your choices... IMO of course... but the answer is not to remove something that should be in the game... going to destard, and not finding a single dragon becuase they are all killed in 5 mins by ONE guy mining leather is a joke in itself. Well of course if you remember the old days of killing a dragon being a cool thing and a hard thing to do.

Just my two cents of course, I like to see a bit of variety in this game. Even if it comes from a guy playing a tamer in fel using "all kill" ... it's just there way to play... hey maybe they are on a 26000 bps connection and can't pvp with a mage? or maybe that's just there way ... either way that's there way of having fun in this game... and people should not worry about someone having fun. They should embrace everyone playing this game, they pay the same you do, and they are helping to keep the game you love alive just as much as you are.

 

[ColterDC]

If you really hate the tamer in fel, which is the soul reason for most of the ranting in this thread, gank him. Or para the dragon, and kill the tamer yourself. Or just leave and dont play his games.

Some more brilliant suggestions from another trammy who doesn't pvp.

1. Gank him - So in order to deal with a GD you need multiple people? Yep that sounds balanced when it takes multiple people to kill someone.

2. Para the dragon - You do know GD's have this skill called Resist Spells? Even at GM it's not going to be paraed for very long.

3. Just leave - Don't worry your not the first person too suggest the best way to fight a GD is too just leave. Sounds like some awesome PvP. Someone shows up with GD, everyone else leaves, exciting game this will be.


Still waiting for one of you defenders of the Greater Dragons to take me up on my offer. No worries though if you don't, I completely understand why you wouldn't want me posting pictures of you being killed over and over again by me simply pushing 1 button "all kill".

 

[Yalp]

oh dear god.. here we go again..

please.. my eyes are starting to bleed!

LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM

 

[o2bavr6]

That's a very simplistic view of the UO combat system. Inacurate, but at least it's simple.

My pvp suits generally gain their survivability by maxing out resists and as many other mods as I can max out.

Some of my pvm suits gain survivability by maxing out damage and letting resist drop to levels well below what is considered competitive in pvp. I have not seen a pvper out-perform any of my pvm chars at pvm.

I have a character with several key resists (including fire btw) in the 50's that is very survivable and powerful in pvm. The reason is that he kills his target before he dies. That character can spike out around 150 SDI with the proper buffs, which effectively destroys the types of targets I kill with that character before they can do much of anything.

I have another character that has a completely unuseable pvp template and suit, but works VERY well in pvm vs single targets. The general strategy is to hit as hard as possible and leech back the damage I take. Again, a pvm strategy that doesn't work with a pvp suit.

There is no reason to go above the pvp damage caps on a pvp suit. There are lots of viable reasons to go over the pvp caps on a pvm suit.

Like I said, your comments oversimplify UO's combat system and are inaccurate. The UO combat system is very complicated, which is why it's pretty much impossible to completely balance.

I'm not saying you can't wear a pvp suit to pvm. What I am saying is that doing that means you aren't optimized for pvm. If you think your pvp suit is just as effective as my pvm suits, I am 100% convinced that I've figured out a lot of things that you haven't.

I actually mean it the inverse to what you are saying but for PvP only. A "Godly" PvM suit means nothing in PvP for the exact reasons you say, low resist as well as in PvP ther are caps to SDI and DI, things like that.

A PvP suit may not be able to dole out as much damage as a PvM suit during PvM, but the PvP suit will be able to absorbe significanlty more damage than a PvM suit during PvM.

 

[o2bavr6]

Seriously, put all the rhetoric and hatred aside (not directed at you or any one person, just a generalization)

Which gives the greater bragging rights.

Scenario 1:

They NERF'D Greater Dragons and I kicked that stupid tamers butt.

Scenario 2:

We all know how seriously over powered Greater Dragons ar but I kicked that stupid tamers butt anyway.

--------------------------

You can come watch me any time. BUT you WILL NOT see me go up to a Greater Dragon, Do the Tame Thing, Get the "You seem to anger the beast" message that tells the Greater Dragon I am one tasy In Between Meal Snack ... AND STAND THERE WAITING FOR HIM TO KILL ME. You WILL SEE ME ... move off a square or two and you MAY SEE ME RUNNING, Invis and return. YOU will hear the clash of weapons as I BLOCK the attack with my paltry 100 Magery Skill Swords of Prosperity. YOU will see me get the Fire Balls/Flame Strikes/Energy Bolt. YOU WILL see me resist them a LOT or YOU will see me very low on Health BUT MOSTLY you will see me in between.

YOU WILL SEE that if I 100% Fail to Block the physical attack, I will either be dead or I will be nearly dead bleeding profusely. IN the later case YOU WILL SEE ME RUNNING AND HIDE to lose Agro. Once that is done and if I am smart enough to remember were the heck all the Wyverns, Drakes, Dragons and other Greater Dragons are and STAY AWAY FROM THEM. You will see my 80% of the time manage to survive.

IF you have Lore you will see these Greater Dragons, even the Babies make the Greater Dragons you face in PvP look like .... Toys.

As to the Teleporting. Excuse me but you are talking to Tamers here. Believe it or not, some Tamers do PvM. Yeah maybe 1% of the time that GD will Teleport. No, I am not going to accept that 100% of the time that GD teleports, One hits, teleports, one hits, teleports, one hits. No, shame on you for even trying to suggest that to a Template that obviously knows better.

As you can not imagine me lasting 15 minutes vs a GD I can not see how any PvPr cant last more than 20 seconds vs one (factoring out the unlucky scenario of the Triple Whammy, that just isnt all that frequent).

The only way I can reconcile the statement is your wanting to run up to that Greater Dragon, smack it, go toe to toe and win.

If that is indeed the case, then we are not in the same ball park here.

Why wouldnt I just go whine about my UBER Greater Dragon can not last 20 Seconds vs a Yamadon. Why my UBER Greater Dragon can not go toe to toe vs the Beserker Deamon. Why my UBER Greater Dragon can not last vs a pathetic Skeletal Dragon. Why my UBER Dragon can not even beat a low life wuss Shadow Ore Elemental. In fact why dont I just generalize the whine and say anything I cant beat down needs to be consider over powered and nerf'd. That I DON'T want anything that is Dangerous to me, that I need to fear and run away from ... one on one.

Yeah a "Good" fight but I DON'T want to fear it, I DON'T want to lose to it. I DON'T want to need to think how to beat it.

In another thread on the old boards shortly after the GD's were introduced. LOTS of people were saying what a shame Dragons had been trivialized, how refreshing and nice it was to have a MoB that one needed to FEAR. How it enhanced the game etc.

Now we are at the stage of, WE DON'T WANT TO BE AFRAID.

You are pretty much correct regarding PvM but you couldnt be any further from the facts in PvP.

Read this carefully: UNTIL YOU PVP YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. No different than you trying to talk about brain surgery cause you stayed at a holiday inn express.

PvP and PvM couldnt be any further apart in play style, and just because you can live with a bunch of GD's around doesn't mean that the GD's arent overpowered FOR PVP ONLY.

How can you even presume to understand PvP if you don't do it? but since you don't it's no different than me trying to explain Bulian Algerbra to you.

 

[Ailish]

You all are so funny. Sarphus has it right in a way. THe problem is, PvPer's dont PvM as a rule, so they DON'T KNOW HOW! So, when you face them with a MONSTER, they dont know how to defeat it.

We actually tease our GM that if we want to win against him in PvP all we have to do is polymorph into a gargoyle and he will get stupid, forget how to fight, and die. The sad part is ... its nearly true!!

A good PvP suit should serve you well for PvM. I go to Doom on my PvPer with no change of suit OR weapon and do just fine. I can kill a champ just fine. I can EVEN kill a GD that some idiotic tamer thought he should sick on me!

I DO PvP. Alot. I also PvM - mostly peerless and champs, quite alot. I can tell you - a tamer that takes a GD to PvP with is stupid, and a PvPer who can't handle one is equally stupid.

 

[ColterDC]

THe problem is, PvPer's dont PvM as a rule, so they DON'T KNOW HOW!

That statement right there proves you're just full of crap.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

.....
Read this carefully: UNTIL YOU PVP YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.....

YOU READ THIS VERY VERY CAREFULLY

All your trying to do is say that the Rules of Engagement for a MoB are totally, 100%, rewritten and have absolutely NO resemblance to PvM when said MoB is in PvP mode.

Do you honestly understand what a total JOKE that is?

As you wanted to ignore previously, I can live vs a GD and YOU ADMITT I CAN, YOU say you can not. Does it not occur to you that the WEAKEND GD YOU fight vs THE STRONGER GD TRYING TO KILL ME, is the same? WITH one exception, THE TAMER. YOUR saying that the TAMER is beating you NOT the GD but your to ... well into face saving to admit it.

Said very simply for you, IF a VASTLY weaker GD is killing you 100% of the time with absolutely NO CHANCE to be victorious LET ALONE SURVIVE AND YOUR SAYING I can survive the Attack of the VASTLY SUPERIOR WILD GD, while wearing a VASTLY INFERIOR equipment, then get a clue YOU cant beat the Tamer, the Player. And your just whinning to OSI to Beat them for you.

You some how think that unless one is ACTIVELY PvPing that they are totally CLUELESS ABOUT MoB's and how they act. THAT in fact the Game mechanics are TOTALLY SUSPENDED and REWRITTEN JUST FOR YOUR ENCOUNTER.

BUT do not let the above stop you from now resorting to desperately stop the bleeding by hiding behind the shield, I ADMIT I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT YOU OR WHAT YOU DO IN GAME OR OUT ... BUT I will say YOU don't PvP I will say all kinds of things I have NO way of knowing just to try to discredit what your saying that demonstrates the flaws in my statements.

It is just a childish tactic.

 

[ColterDC]

You continue to post, yet it's been proven that you're nothing but a lying no skill trammy tamer who won't back up what you're saying.

Stop talking about pvp because you don't know anything about it. You compare fighting a stupid wild dragon against a GD controlled by a player saying that the wild dragon is more of a challenge? That right there proves you are completely clueless.

Maybe add some more emoticons and captialize a few more words, then maybe people will take you seriously.

 

[Lady-Tor]

Says you. The drawbacks to being a tamer would be....?

The huge amount of time it takes to actualy get your skills decent.

 

[Hunters Moon]

Says you. The drawbacks to being a tamer would be....?

The huge amount of time it takes to actualy get your skills decent.

Advanced character token + jewlery. Nice try.

 

[Joyous2K]

YOU READ THIS VERY VERY CAREFULLY

All your trying to do is say that the Rules of Engagement for a MoB are totally, 100%, rewritten and have absolutely NO resemblance to PvM when said MoB is in PvP mode.

Do you honestly understand what a total JOKE that is?

As you wanted to ignore previously, I can live vs a GD and YOU ADMITT I CAN, YOU say you can not. Does it not occur to you that the WEAKEND GD YOU fight vs THE STRONGER GD TRYING TO KILL ME, is the same? WITH one exception, THE TAMER. YOUR saying that the TAMER is beating you NOT the GD but your to ... well into face saving to admit it.

Said very simply for you, IF a VASTLY weaker GD is killing you 100% of the time with absolutely NO CHANCE to be victorious LET ALONE SURVIVE AND YOUR SAYING I can survive the Attack of the VASTLY SUPERIOR WILD GD, while wearing a VASTLY INFERIOR equipment, then get a clue YOU cant beat the Tamer, the Player. And your just whinning to OSI to Beat them for you.

You some how think that unless one is ACTIVELY PvPing that they are totally CLUELESS ABOUT MoB's and how they act. THAT in fact the Game mechanics are TOTALLY SUSPENDED and REWRITTEN JUST FOR YOUR ENCOUNTER.

BUT do not let the above stop you from now resorting to desperately stop the bleeding by hiding behind the shield, I ADMIT I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT YOU OR WHAT YOU DO IN GAME OR OUT ... BUT I will say YOU don't PvP I will say all kinds of things I have NO way of knowing just to try to discredit what your saying that demonstrates the flaws in my statements.

It is just a childish tactic.

Look I know we need to protect the dragons and I don't want to see them nerfed but...

Trained dragons are better than wild dragons. Wild dragons are stupid and slow. Trained dragons are pretty quick and have more total skill points via GM anat, med, eval. They are also smarter because they take human int for direction and AI for casting.

There is no getting around it; GD is best item in UO today. Better than 10 year old characters, better than 10 year old characters' Fancy Suit and Strongman Sword, and some dragons are only 1.4 weeks old. How is Swordy or Harry Potter going to compete? They really cannot. Swordy and Harry Potter are a serious comedy routine when viewing them and their skills compared to a dragons. Best chance for those guys is to bring Bilbo out of retirement and maybe he will get typical hobbit lucky and kill one while trying to run away and hide. Only other way to deal with them is to cry nerf on Stratics. I'm not kidding. These guys are jokes compared to a dragon. Swordy? Whack whack whack for 130 damage. Run away and hide and heal. Harry Potter? Por Corp Wis for 44 damage run away and hide and heal. No chance.

 

[Mistura]

YOU READ THIS VERY VERY CAREFULLY

All your trying to do is say that the Rules of Engagement for a MoB are totally, 100%, rewritten and have absolutely NO resemblance to PvM when said MoB is in PvP mode.

Do you honestly understand what a total JOKE that is?

As you wanted to ignore previously, I can live vs a GD and YOU ADMITT I CAN, YOU say you can not. Does it not occur to you that the WEAKEND GD YOU fight vs THE STRONGER GD TRYING TO KILL ME, is the same? WITH one exception, THE TAMER. YOUR saying that the TAMER is beating you NOT the GD but your to ... well into face saving to admit it.

Said very simply for you, IF a VASTLY weaker GD is killing you 100% of the time with absolutely NO CHANCE to be victorious LET ALONE SURVIVE AND YOUR SAYING I can survive the Attack of the VASTLY SUPERIOR WILD GD, while wearing a VASTLY INFERIOR equipment, then get a clue YOU cant beat the Tamer, the Player. And your just whinning to OSI to Beat them for you.

You some how think that unless one is ACTIVELY PvPing that they are totally CLUELESS ABOUT MoB's and how they act. THAT in fact the Game mechanics are TOTALLY SUSPENDED and REWRITTEN JUST FOR YOUR ENCOUNTER.

BUT do not let the above stop you from now resorting to desperately stop the bleeding by hiding behind the shield, I ADMIT I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT YOU OR WHAT YOU DO IN GAME OR OUT ... BUT I will say YOU don't PvP I will say all kinds of things I have NO way of knowing just to try to discredit what your saying that demonstrates the flaws in my statements.

It is just a childish tactic.

Nice speach Al Pacino.. Now listen, your forgetting something quite important:

Tamers will also have supplementary skills including things like Magery, Archery, Chiv, with which to pile on even more damage/dismount or keep there greater dragon at full health no matter how many arrows you can fire at it.

The greater dragon has an obscene amount of hit points and its gonna take one person a good bit of time and focused effort to take it down.. During this time, the dragon is dealing massive damage and the tamer is either spamming flame strike/greater heal or dismounting, mortal striking...

This makes for an unwinable situation 1vs1 for anyone opposing the tamer.

This is wrong.

This needs to be fixed.

I do not see how anyone can deny this...

 

[Sarphus]

Some more brilliant suggestions from another trammy who doesn't pvp.

1. Gank him - So in order to deal with a GD you need multiple people? Yep that sounds balanced when it takes multiple people to kill someone.

2. Para the dragon - You do know GD's have this skill called Resist Spells? Even at GM it's not going to be paraed for very long.

3. Just leave - Don't worry your not the first person too suggest the best way to fight a GD is too just leave. Sounds like some awesome PvP. Someone shows up with GD, everyone else leaves, exciting game this will be.


Still waiting for one of you defenders of the Greater Dragons to take me up on my offer. No worries though if you don't, I completely understand why you wouldn't want me posting pictures of you being killed over and over again by me simply pushing 1 button "all kill".

I didn't see your offer, but I haven't exactly read most of this thread. It's just one of those annoying threads filled with one sided arguments.

If you're trying to para a dragon, and you're using a necro/mage you could always try EO/para. I haven't tried it, but I suspect it would work. I would argue that a necro/mage is probably not a reasonable counter to 1 on 1 a tamer using a greater dragon. It can work, but there are certainly easier ways to counter.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

....
The greater dragon has an obscene amount of hit points and its gonna take one person a good bit of time and focused effort to take it down.. During this time, the dragon is dealing massive damage and the tamer is either spamming flame strike/greater heal or dismounting, mortal striking...
...

Yes, Now you are admitting it is the (what is your words Laughable, incompetent, inept, joke) TAMER, the PLAYER that is BEATING YOU.

Not only that but EAMythic loves them SO MUCH they must have bestowed upon the Tamer Template, NO TOTAL SKILL CAP.

I didn't get that memo on how to do that Will some one forward it to me ..... AND ALL THE OTHER TAMERS?

Every thing you all say is THE TAMER, THE PLAYER is beating you. YOU are so totally embarrassed by this that your in denial of that fact (based on your words).

As your ..... what ever the categorization could be, indicates your playing the encounter as GO FIGHT THE GD we will deal with the Tamer later.

YOU deserve to lose.

 

[Sarphus]

I actually mean it the inverse to what you are saying but for PvP only. A "Godly" PvM suit means nothing in PvP for the exact reasons you say, low resist as well as in PvP ther are caps to SDI and DI, things like that.

A PvP suit may not be able to dole out as much damage as a PvM suit during PvM, but the PvP suit will be able to absorbe significanlty more damage than a PvM suit during PvM.

I would agree with that. You can still pvm in a pvp suit. It's just not optimal and you may not be able to do some of the highest-end encounters.

 

[Salty Pete]

It will never happen. They're afraid that if they ever admited that hitting an "all kill" macro and watching their pets kill everything for them was overpowered, the Dev's might wake up and hit tamers with a nerf stick and then all these no skill tamers would actually have to learn to play a real char.

The bottom line is this, I have invited 4 of the tamer lovers in this thread to come on test and try to kill me. The conditions of the test were they had to play a melee char and I would be a tamer with a GD. They all declined, usually with some lame excuse. But the truth is that they know they stand no chance in a fight against a GD.

And no it's not because I'm some uber leet PvPer, but I don't really have to be when I have a meat shield with a 1000 hit points that is capable of doing 100+ damage in a matter of seconds.

Seems like if you want to PvP against a dragon you would do better playing a PvP mage/bard than a melee character.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Seems like if you want to PvP against a dragon you would do better playing a PvP mage/bard than a melee character.

This simply is NOT on the table for them. This entire thread is NOT about Greater Dragons ruining PvP or being this or that.

It was started by an individual that makes no bones about having Tamers deleted from UO OR at the most relegated to being nothing of value.

It is simply a thread that should have been titled "I HATE TAMERS AND WANT THEM GONE".

And if Tamers were not around, it would be Archers, then Mages any thing that is in the category of Stand off combat.

 

[jack flash]

Balance maybe? Show me a non-tamer template that doesn't require massive use of mana and stat balance. It doesn't cost even one mana point to command a pet to attack. Mages have to put at least 80 dex to have full use of parry. Warriors have to put at least 36-40 int(mana) into stat configuration to be useful anymore. All the while nothing has been balanced with the tamer. "All Kill" is more powerful than any mage spell or any warrior attack.
Says you. The drawbacks to being a tamer would be....?

the draw back, is 10 months of legal taming

even out? go make one then u can have a dragon of your very own

 

[Salty Pete]

This simply is NOT on the table for them. This entire thread is NOT about Greater Dragons ruining PvP or being this or that.

It was started by an individual that makes no bones about having Tamers deleted from UO OR at the most relegated to being nothing of value.

It is simply a thread that should have been titled "I HATE TAMERS AND WANT THEM GONE".

And if Tamers were not around, it would be Archers, then Mages any thing that is in the category of Stand off combat.

Or at the very least it is a clear case of unwilling to bring the right tool for the right fight.

I can understand the frustration of seeing your normally quasi-unbeatable character suddenly made powerless by a new addition to the game, but to be completely unwilling to adapt is beyond ********.

 

[Sarphus]

Or at the very least it is a clear case of unwilling to bring the right tool for the right fight.

I can understand the frustration of seeing your normally quasi-unbeatable character suddenly made powerless by a new addition to the game, but to be completely unwilling to adapt is beyond ********.

I hear you can slam a square peg through a round hole if you just keep trying really hard.

I also heard even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes.

I heard a few other similar things, but they aren't appropriate for this forum.

Use the right tools for the right fights... UO's combat system DOES resemble rock paper scissors in some ways. Don't use a screwdriver to put a new blade on your circular saw. Don't use an uninsulated screwdriver to work in a 480 panel (BOOM!).

 

[Sarphus]

the draw back, is 10 months of legal taming

even out? go make one then u can have a dragon of your very own

I wish the devs would make taming get a gain check every time animal lore does (something like 5 per taming attempt), so less dilligent people could make a tamer. I am almost certain that most of the people who whine about taming just don't have the diligence to make a tamer.

I don't think the time it takes to train a skill should be justification to make the skill overpowered. I also don't think taming is overpowered.

The biggest bang-for-buck skill in the game is chivalry.
The second biggest is spellweaving.

Taming+lore might be 3rd.

 

[o2bavr6]

YOU READ THIS VERY VERY CAREFULLY

All your trying to do is say that the Rules of Engagement for a MoB are totally, 100%, rewritten and have absolutely NO resemblance to PvM when said MoB is in PvP mode.

Let me try to explain it like this:

You are in Destard in Tram, there are lots of GD's around and you can not only kill them with your own GD but you can do so without dying to a wild GD.

Now lets use this same scenario, but we will say that the wild GD you are trying to kill has a real player controlling it. So when you say you can sneak up, do what you need, bla bla bla, it doesn't apply here becausee the "player" controlling the pet sees you.

So now when you go to attack the GD the player controlling it is casting weaken on you, and harm and magic arrow and poison, just to keep you interupted so you cant cast a heal or cure spell. Don't forget this whole time the GD is chomping on you too.

So in a PvP scenaro, it's not that the GD alone is over powered or the tamer alone that is overpowered, its the fact that a GD being controlled by a player who can also attack you at the same time that makes it overpowerd in PVP ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[o2bavr6]

Or at the very least it is a clear case of unwilling to bring the right tool for the right fight.

I can understand the frustration of seeing your normally quasi-unbeatable character suddenly made powerless by a new addition to the game, but to be completely unwilling to adapt is beyond ********.

I just don't understand why people who have no clue about PvP and don't participate in PvP continue to defend the GD in PvP.

We are not asking for a change in Tram!

Bringing the right tool has nothing to do with it. It has to do with the PvP rules that EA put in place, and the GD breaks those rules, plain and simple.

If GD's do not do too much damage in one hit, then why was Word of Death nerfed? Please explain! Isn't me casting an 80+ damage word of death in one hit the same thing as a tamer sicking his pet on me who does 80+ damage in one hit?

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Let me try to explain it like this:

You are in Destard in Tram, there are lots of GD's around and you can not only kill them with your own GD but you can do so without dying to a wild GD.
....

That is just not accurate.

You get add's up the butt (If I play like you play PvP vs a Tamer), any number of those adds will target you or your dragon.

You think for one instant that Tamed GD is going to win one on one vs a Wild GD without you?

You think your going to heal/vet your tamed GD vs 2+ Wild GD's?

You think your going to Heal/Vet your Tamed GD vs 2+ Wild GD's + 3 Wyvern + 5 Drakes + 3 Dragons while you have 2 Wyverns + 1 Drake + 5 Dragons +1 Greater Dragon (paralyzing you)?

If I played in Destard like you and the others play PvP vs Tamer+GD, My greater dragons would constantly be dead and most likely looking for a new Master than ... can ....

I don't Play Destard like you and the others Play PvP vs a Tamer + GD.

But then again, I don't die, my GD's don't die. You do die. Hum I dont play Like you do, I live, you die.

The best clue I can continue to wisper in the hurricane of "I hate Tamers and they need to be deleted" is YOUR letting the Tamer beat you. Obviously the Low Life, Moronic Trammie Tamer is a better PvPr than you are. They have your number and you are totally clueless how to defeat them.

 

[nickdafunk]

Yes, Now you are admitting it is the (what is your words Laughable, incompetent, inept, joke) TAMER, the PLAYER that is BEATING YOU.

Not only that but EAMythic loves them SO MUCH they must have bestowed upon the Tamer Template, NO TOTAL SKILL CAP.

I didn't get that memo on how to do that Will some one forward it to me ..... AND ALL THE OTHER TAMERS?

Every thing you all say is THE TAMER, THE PLAYER is beating you. YOU are so totally embarrassed by this that your in denial of that fact (based on your words).

As your ..... what ever the categorization could be, indicates your playing the encounter as GO FIGHT THE GD we will deal with the Tamer later.

YOU deserve to lose.

Holy cow! Someone needs to take a deep breath here it seems

With all the capitalization and heated words, i can just picture a wee spotty teen jumping up and down pointing and screaming at the comp screen, with mum and dad in the background asking politely for some f'ing peace and quiet!

Anyways, back on point, you reveal your ignorance more and more with each one of your post.

Your raving on about how its the player that beats the victim but I would argue its a combination of the two. And tbh, for you not to see that makes me wonder re: your levels of perception.

The fact is, your a clueless trammie who has no idea what impact GD's have had on pvp so you should just STFU on this one..

 

[o2bavr6]

That is just not accurate.

You get add's up the butt (If I play like you play PvP vs a Tamer), any number of those adds will target you or your dragon.

You think for one instant that Tamed GD is going to win one on one vs a Wild GD without you?

You think your going to heal/vet your tamed GD vs 2+ Wild GD's?

You think your going to Heal/Vet your Tamed GD vs 2+ Wild GD's + 3 Wyvern + 5 Drakes + 3 Dragons while you have 2 Wyverns + 1 Drake + 5 Dragons +1 Greater Dragon (paralyzing you)?

If I played in Destard like you and the others play PvP vs Tamer+GD, My greater dragons would constantly be dead and most likely looking for a new Master than ... can ....

I don't Play Destard like you and the others Play PvP vs a Tamer + GD.

But then again, I don't die, my GD's don't die. You do die. Hum I dont play Like you do, I live, you die.

The best clue I can continue to wisper in the hurricane of "I hate Tamers and they need to be deleted" is YOUR letting the Tamer beat you. Obviously the Low Life, Moronic Trammie Tamer is a better PvPr than you are. They have your number and you are totally clueless how to defeat them.

Actully I have no idea where you go to fight or kill or tame GD's I was using that as an example, which you took out of context.

For that matter I don't presume to tell you how to PvM because I don't do it.

Also I would take your advice of not fighting the GD and going to Tram to do somehting else, but I'm red so I can't. In Fel if you are Red there is nothing to do but PvP or a couple of peerless's.

Either way you still have no clue of hwat you are talking about, but talking to you is like talking to a 14 year old who thinkgs he knows everything when in reality hes just a snot nosed kid still going through puberty.

 

[The Home Guild]

Hunter this is Doi...aren't you a tamer?
I'm so confused with all this talk.
Tamers were nerfed pub 16..some for good and bad.
Anything us tamers can get i say bring it on.

just my own opinion.

 

[Ailish]

That statement right there proves you're just full of crap.

No, it doesnt. If they put GD in the Rikktor Champ Spawn, certain PvPer's would not be whining right now, because they would have already learned how to kill them. But guess what, if you know how to kill Rikky you can sure as heck kill a paltry GD.

PvP'ers, as a general rule (THAT MEANS NOT ALL, REMEMBER!) do not deal with PvM beyond Champ Spawns. And unless you do Champs solo, you are doing a GROUP EFFORT. So, no, you're average PvP'er does not think in the necessary tactics to kill monsters that are not included in a Champ (and often not even some of those - to which I say I am guilty, as imps own me ).

 

[Hunters Moon]

Hunter this is Doi...aren't you a tamer?
I'm so confused with all this talk.
Tamers were nerfed pub 16..some for good and bad.
Anything us tamers can get i say bring it on.

just my own opinion.

Nope I do not have a tamer characacter. Yeah I know tamers lost some uberness in Pub 16,but the taming temnplate has more than made up for it since then.

 

[o2bavr6]

No, it doesnt. If they put GD in the Rikktor Champ Spawn, certain PvPer's would not be whining right now, because they would have already learned how to kill them. But guess what, if you know how to kill Rikky you can sure as heck kill a paltry GD.

The main difference is that Rikktor is not being controleld by a player, and there isn't a tamer casting spells on you at the same time Rikktor is.

You seem to be missing the fact that the GD alone is not too powerful, it is when the GD and it's tamer in PvP that it becomes too powerful. Powerful is defined as the amount of damage it can do in one hit, when no other template can dole out similar amounts of damage.

It's funny because every time i bring up Word of Death and all the damage it did before the nerf as an example, all you tamers seem to skirt around it.

So Word of Death when it did 80+ damage in one hit was too powerful, but a GD that does 80+ damage in one hit isn't????????????

 

[ColterDC]

So Word of Death when it did 80+ damage in one hit was too powerful, but a GD that does 80+ damage in one hit isn't????????????

That's exactly the point these brain dead tamer lovers can't argue with.

This entire conversation reminds me of all the conversations that took place right before AI, WoD, Evasion, Hiryu Dismount, Perfection, etc were re-balanced.

On one side you have people like o2bavr6 who are pointing out an obvious flaw in the system and on the other side you have the gimplate ******* screaming "Adapt...don't like that char then make your own" or some other nonsense to try and defend their very weak position.

So much like every other overpowered, poorly thought out skill/item that has been added to the game in the last few years. Enjoy it while you can, because it will certainly be brought back in line sooner or later.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Nope I do not have a tamer characacter. Yeah I know tamers lost some uberness in Pub 16,but the taming temnplate has more than made up for it since then.

What an HUGE understatement ("Yeah I know tamers lost some uberness") and what a HUGE decption ("the taming temnplate has more than made up for it since then")

The Tamer Template has zero advantages vs the Original Template.

On the other hand The Tamer of today with the power they can call on is the merest shadow of what they could call on when I left.

The ability to tame that power was .... easier than it is today.

The ability to be able to tame that power didn't take (legally) a real life time as it does today.

IF Thieves think they have been savaged then they by no means are alone on that bench. Tamers have been every bit as savaged / nerf'd.

Why I suggested, in the SP version of this "I hate tamers and want them deleted" thread, they restore Taming back to T2A, pets RULE (YES THE RULES FOR TAMING). Laugh at that one as people become / made aware of just how far The Tamer Haters have KILLED the Tamer class. Let them see what a REAL Tamer as originaly defined could do. Not this Wispy, Shadowy image of something Long Lost is today.

 

[ColterDC]

IF Thieves think they have been savaged. Tamers have been every bit as savaged / nerf'd.

HAHA..... You have got to be the most full of crap poster in years.

Go back to EQ, you're too dumb to play UO.

 

[o2bavr6]

HAHA..... You have got to be the most full of crap poster in years.

Go back to EQ, you're too dumb to play UO.

Enigma keeps bringing up the damage over time concept over the damage in one hit.

When Word of Death did 80+HP, it still took the caster almost 4 seconds to cast, in that time a dexer can easily do 3 AI's which add up to more damage points than 80, yet WoD was nerfed. Intersting how he is proved wrong again.

 

[Yalp]

The last page and 1/2 have no objective points on the topic, just rhetoric designed to further the agenda of some.

So here's the scoops folks.. when you stoop to insult each other, name call and in general be a loud mouthed a**.. you've lost the argument. Period.

By far, PVP is NOT dominated by Tamer + GD or Tamer and Dread. That is a FACT. Live and Let Live!

LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM

 

[Joyous2K]

The last page and 1/2 have no objective points on the topic, just rhetoric designed to further the agenda of some.

So here's the scoops folks.. when you stoop to insult each other, name call and in general be a loud mouthed a**.. you've lost the argument. Period.

By far, PVP is NOT dominated by Tamer + GD or Tamer and Dread. That is a FACT. Live and Let Live!

LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM

Thanks for your words of wisdom. That is very intelligent thinking of you.

Oh, thanks for bringing this festering wound back up too. It was definitely not debated enough. Good idea.

Greater dragon is the best item in the game to day.

 

[Llewen]

By far, PVP is NOT dominated by Tamer + GD or Tamer and Dread. That is a FACT.

Which is exactly what I have been saying all along, and exactly why I have said over and over again, the devs need to find out what is actually going on in the game, and not just listen to the complaints that are posted on Stratics. They can also completely ignore me if they want, I don't care, as long as they actually know what is happening in the game, and have something concrete to base their decisions on.

In my opinion, far too often in the past, game changing decisions have been made based on the priorities of the interest group that yells the loudest and the longest, and not on an understanding of what is actually happening in the game. I suggested that the devs compile stats so they can determine things like what are the most common skills and skill sets, and what the kpm (kills per minute) and kd ratios are for the various skills and skill sets.

I don't know if this kind of stats collecting is possible. My guess is that it is, and I think it should be done, but it would probably take quite a bit of effort to set up. But at least if they could do something like that, they would have something concrete to base decisions on, something other than opinion and hysteria. And once something like that was set up, I expect it would be relatively low maintenance, and could form the basis for something interesting like some form of detailed stats for factions.

 

[o2bavr6]

Which is exactly what I have been saying all along, and exactly why I have said over and over again, the devs need to find out what is actually going on in the game, and not just listen to the complaints that are posted on Stratics. They can also completely ignore me if they want, I don't care, as long as they actually know what is happening in the game, and have something concrete to base their decisions on.

In my opinion, far too often in the past, game changing decisions have been made based on the priorities of the interest group that yells the loudest and the longest, and not on an understanding of what is actually happening in the game. I suggested that the devs compile stats so they can determine things like what are the most common skills and skill sets, and what the kpm (kills per minute) and kd ratios are for the various skills and skill sets.

I don't know if this kind of stats collecting is possible. My guess is that it is, and I think it should be done, but it would probably take quite a bit of effort to set up. But at least if they could do something like that, they would have something concrete to base decisions on, something other than opinion and hysteria. And once something like that was set up, I expect it would be relatively low maintenance, and could form the basis for something interesting like some form of detailed stats for factions.

I can agree with you and Yalp that PvP is not overun with GD's...yet. But I can also say that on our shard the only reason my guild doesn't PvP with GD's is that no one would ever show up again to fight us. (To be honest, I think we like playing mages more anyway).

It is bad enough that Fel is as dead as it is. We have Yew gate and the occasional spawn to raid, in fact sometimes we raid ourselves for the fun of it.

So imagine a dominant guild of reds all fighting with GD's. What do you think would happen to PvP?

Is it really that much of an issue to the Tamers in this game who do not PvP ever, if they slightly lessen the fire breath damage a GD does in PvP only?

Why was it ok for everyone when they nerfed the 80+ one hit damage Word of Death did in PvP, but yet you don't want the 80+ one hit damage a GD does in one hit nerfed?

Is it really asking too much for us PvPers to want a balanced game in regards to PvP?

I noticed you mentioned kills per minute or damage over time. As I mentioned in the post earlier, word of death takes almost 4 seconds to cast, when it did 80+ damage it still took 4 seconds to cast, during that time a fencer can Armor Ignore you at least 3 times which adds up to way more damage than 80+ points. Yet Word of Death was nerfed, so how does it differ from a GD in it's one hit ability?

 

[Yalp]

Woulda shoulda coulda? .. the current fact right here and now, in this moment of time, in this incarnation, is.....

TAMERS + *insert pet of the day here* DO NOT DOMINATE PVP! Period. Fact.

Tamers + Pets can dominate SOME templates, but Tamer + Pet do not dominate ALL templates. That is the very definition of balance.

LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM

 

[Sarphus]

Woulda shoulda coulda? .. the current fact right here and now, in this moment of time, in this incarnation, is.....

TAMERS + *insert pet of the day here* DO NOT DOMINATE PVP! Period. Fact.

Tamers + Pets can dominate SOME templates, but Tamer + Pet do not dominate ALL templates. That is the very definition of balance.

LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM

BINGO!