*sigh* Again, so is killing somebody. However, its not morally wrong in a game. Why do people keep trying to compare what happens in real life to a video game?
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The Moral Dilemma Of Being A Merchant In UO
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Ivar the Great
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Anyone who has played UO since 1997 remembers what made UO unique above all others. UO isn't some Steam $5 game for the kiddies, its a game that was purely built on fellowship and community unlike almost any other mmo that ever existed. Fellowship is a long forgotten word in the modern gaming world. The only reason UO is still here is because of our UO community loyalists who don't try to scam or cheat others and stand together to oust the bad seeds like the one idoc player who has been soiling the game this past year with his slander, harassment and violation of about every term of service etc. Its because of our community that many of us are petitioning mesanna to remove him from our game. The community stands together which is why we are all still here. Another thing that makes UO unique is the heavy load of older adult players in their 40s and 50s which is not often found in games that "...are just games".
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Merlin
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I do the same. I don't want something sitting on my vendor long if I'm pricing at more than a few million, so I typically play the price war as well. I suppose someone could say it is hurting other sellers (and myself in terms of loss profit margin), but I'm giving a potential buyer a better deal. Theoretically, it's a zero sum game. If you want to liquidate something quicker, you have to price it lower. It's basic free-market economics.
As a long time merchant, here's what I do...
I almost exclusively buy my items from other vendors. I sell primarily low to middle end rares.
I don't generally haggle with players so most of my rules are based off that..
If I see an item on a vendor that is obviously at default price - as in they didn't enter a price - , I will buy the item and look around the house for a way to contact them... a bulletin board, ICQ on a book, vendor or sign. If I am able to reach them, I offer to give it back usually for free... 1k isn't a big deal. If I can't contact them, then I don't go further unless its something really expensive then I may ask around.
If I see something for sale that is inexpensive or less than I can sell it for? I'll buy it. Now, if its obvious to me that it was a clerical error such as duplicate items have another 0 added and this one is just missing it... I'll do the same procedure as if it was default priced. If not, it's fair game.
I will not attempt to convince a player something is worth less than it is. I will tell them what -I- will pay for it and often tell them if they think they can get more, give it a shot and if they can't, they can always message me and if I still need I'll buy it. No pressure, no coercion.
As far as someone selling something cheap because they don't know better? Most of the time, I treat it as a "not my problem". It is not my job to babysit folks. I have pointed out such things before to folks before when they are there and stocking their vendor and aren't acting like a butthead. The way I see it... I've spent literally 100's of hours in my UO life, answering questions, price checks and helping educate folks in the world of rares.. I'm always willing to give my opinions on prices to anyone who asks, but I'm a merchant. I buy and resell rares. In the end, I feel it is the responsibility of the seller to seek out information. With the in-game vendor searc, in-game chats and forums... there really isn't a lot of excuse for ignorance.
I almost exclusively buy my items from other vendors. I sell primarily low to middle end rares.
I don't generally haggle with players so most of my rules are based off that..
If I see an item on a vendor that is obviously at default price - as in they didn't enter a price - , I will buy the item and look around the house for a way to contact them... a bulletin board, ICQ on a book, vendor or sign. If I am able to reach them, I offer to give it back usually for free... 1k isn't a big deal. If I can't contact them, then I don't go further unless its something really expensive then I may ask around.
If I see something for sale that is inexpensive or less than I can sell it for? I'll buy it. Now, if its obvious to me that it was a clerical error such as duplicate items have another 0 added and this one is just missing it... I'll do the same procedure as if it was default priced. If not, it's fair game.
I will not attempt to convince a player something is worth less than it is. I will tell them what -I- will pay for it and often tell them if they think they can get more, give it a shot and if they can't, they can always message me and if I still need I'll buy it. No pressure, no coercion.
As far as someone selling something cheap because they don't know better? Most of the time, I treat it as a "not my problem". It is not my job to babysit folks. I have pointed out such things before to folks before when they are there and stocking their vendor and aren't acting like a butthead. The way I see it... I've spent literally 100's of hours in my UO life, answering questions, price checks and helping educate folks in the world of rares.. I'm always willing to give my opinions on prices to anyone who asks, but I'm a merchant. I buy and resell rares. In the end, I feel it is the responsibility of the seller to seek out information. With the in-game vendor searc, in-game chats and forums... there really isn't a lot of excuse for ignorance.
Mal has some of the facts of early 97 launch of UO correct... but not all of it. When the kids and I got out of beta many who were in beta understood the ways of players back then. There was a few who had pure devil in their attitude's of how they were going to things to others... It didn't help that the creator was not immune to the battles and creative thefts of life and property in the game. He in couraged it! Which is why I didn't agree with the banning of the guy who killed him. It was clear he asked for it in his lack of understanding of the minds he would be unleashing to terrorize the rest of us. But not all was lost... Many shards had Guilds who's leaders set up good structure of actions and coverage. These days you have chat but back then it was icq all the way... and not every day was murder inc.
Many I have known in other games from UO's fisrt years, EQ, Diablo(which I still play), WOW, and many others those who I talked of other games I played asked me of the game. Very few disliked UO, there was a small handful of haters back in 2000 - 2004. But I think that was not due to the system but the Dev team of that time that were in the habit of peeving the player base nearly every day. See taking away things that have been part of the game cause you don't see a need to keep the paying public happy and in the game kinda bites. Some I agreed with as the game was changing and growing ... Dev was not keen on that aspect that more people meant more housing... land to place.
We have had bad seeds in UO from day 1... that being said. The game masters did try to curb them.. Scripting has been with us along with scammers.. l feel it was when the first guy to take his goods to Ebay or any of the off game sites and sell for $$ we lost control. Greed and need for funds drive the RL world. EA could have stopped the first major of these people but the dragging of feet made it almost impossible later on for the Dev of today. Laws and regulations reguarding games on line give them limits. EA also did things that made it hard to control the elements with its actions over the years...
UO has a lot of detractors, some for valid reasons. But....
I have seen over the 20 years I have roamed the shards alot of good people who have left for tons of reasons. Top most has been not over the issues stated.. but something going on in RL. Yes some have left due to thiefts and cheating, and others due to changes the Dev have done without a by your leave from players. But its the Real life issues over the years that have hit the game the hardest. War, job change, job loss, school, 9/11, money issues, and the death of the player all have added into this mix.
Now most who leave do so in a pique of anger because they didn't get their way in a publish...??
Hardly.
We have lost the one thing that made UO a keeper .... community.
Back in the day you logged in and went to town and met up with guild mates, friends. people talked.. and I mean talked not trash or hate with words meant to catch the eye. I mean they talked like you do in RL. Hunting was good with people who knew each other .. today... it is rare outside the pvp saber rattlers who use vile hatered to try get more to fight...
Times have changed.
So have people.
Many I have known in other games from UO's fisrt years, EQ, Diablo(which I still play), WOW, and many others those who I talked of other games I played asked me of the game. Very few disliked UO, there was a small handful of haters back in 2000 - 2004. But I think that was not due to the system but the Dev team of that time that were in the habit of peeving the player base nearly every day. See taking away things that have been part of the game cause you don't see a need to keep the paying public happy and in the game kinda bites. Some I agreed with as the game was changing and growing ... Dev was not keen on that aspect that more people meant more housing... land to place.
We have had bad seeds in UO from day 1... that being said. The game masters did try to curb them.. Scripting has been with us along with scammers.. l feel it was when the first guy to take his goods to Ebay or any of the off game sites and sell for $$ we lost control. Greed and need for funds drive the RL world. EA could have stopped the first major of these people but the dragging of feet made it almost impossible later on for the Dev of today. Laws and regulations reguarding games on line give them limits. EA also did things that made it hard to control the elements with its actions over the years...
UO has a lot of detractors, some for valid reasons. But....
I have seen over the 20 years I have roamed the shards alot of good people who have left for tons of reasons. Top most has been not over the issues stated.. but something going on in RL. Yes some have left due to thiefts and cheating, and others due to changes the Dev have done without a by your leave from players. But its the Real life issues over the years that have hit the game the hardest. War, job change, job loss, school, 9/11, money issues, and the death of the player all have added into this mix.
Now most who leave do so in a pique of anger because they didn't get their way in a publish...??
Hardly.
We have lost the one thing that made UO a keeper .... community.
Back in the day you logged in and went to town and met up with guild mates, friends. people talked.. and I mean talked not trash or hate with words meant to catch the eye. I mean they talked like you do in RL. Hunting was good with people who knew each other .. today... it is rare outside the pvp saber rattlers who use vile hatered to try get more to fight...
Times have changed.
So have people.
And yet you could argue that a small community of players is the one thing keeping the game alive to this day. Or it could be addiction rather than community now I think about it.
If we met IRL I was planning on doing just that. Maybe your shoes also. But you can keep the socks.take my pants
You know that this issue has absolutely nothing to do with UO as a platform right?
Go look on the WoW forums(currently still the most succesful MMO I *believe*), or indeed any other MMO and see exactly the same sort of posts about their "toxic" playerbases ruining the game.
Its just the greater internet F**kwad theory isnt it, your problem is really with human nature.
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You are correct of course that other games have jerks too, however in all the other games I've played it is significantly less visible and people can't get away with nearly as much as they can in UO. The level of trolling in UO is quite a few notches higher than the average trolling of games. A troll in another game might shout some average insults at you and steal the monster you were fighting, but they can't do much else without getting in trouble.
Compare that to UO where someone can infiltrate your guild, afk kill and rob everyone in the guild multiple times a week to harass them, then spam hate speech and every curse word imaginable at you in general chat, then use a glitch to break into a private house and take stuff as you lock it down (I've seen this happen), then scam 10 people a day for weeks plus duping/scripting, and even break into your account to steal everything you have then delete all your characters when they are done. Yet even after all that, the staff members of the game will not lift a finger to punish them for any of it.
Other games take trolling and scamming seriously. If someone breaks into your account and destroys it, the game will actually track down the person who did it, give you your stuff back, and then ban the person. Other games will crack down on those who use cheat programs, exploits, or dupe to deter others from doing it. Other games drop a perma ban on someone immediately if they use hate speech or threats of physical violence even once. All of those things keep the toxicity levels in check and maintain the fun atmosphere of the game. UO has chosen to do nothing and instead allow all the toxic behavior, which has let the game spiral out of control.
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Initial driver? How about being more or less for a period the only game in town. There is a reason no other title besides EvE that has tried to adopt that type of play has been considered a resounding commercial success, and by today's standards UO wouldn't have been considered successful at it's peak. Shadowbane, Darkfall, Crowfall, Asheron's Call, are all games that have tried it an not gained traction, and are barely spoken of now. The next great hope is Albion, the sad part is when ever you see people raving about one of these games, it is almost always person who got their start in MMO's with UO's early days.
I'm not going to say there isn't a market for that play style, there obviously is. But to say that is what made UO great is to go against all available data. I can't think af any other MMORPGs besides UO and EvE that have ever been considered a resounding success that did not limit these types of risks, abandon full loot pvp, and fully separate PvP and PvM on different server.
UO was as much a model of what to do when making an MMO as an example of what not to do.
Bingo WhiteWitch
Human nature took over.
I vote for addiction in the UO matter.
Now how can it infect others........ *rubs hands and heads to the lab*
Human nature took over.
I vote for addiction in the UO matter.
Now how can it infect others........ *rubs hands and heads to the lab*
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Actually, Final Fantasy XIV has usurped WoWs throne.
I did this for years. Competitively accepting less gold for the same item offers no moral or ethical dilemma.
However you want to justify it to yourself...
Screwing people over isn't how I roll.
PVP takes at least a small degree of consent in order for it to happen or at least know the risks of it.
Blindsiding someone for a few mil isn't the same in my book.
Ive got nothing to justify ... this is a game. My current game of choice I kill people and take their stuff. Sometimes its the other way round. Its a game. Im 100% sure we wouldnt do it in real life.
Lets remember its a game here so you'd be screwing people over for virtual stuff that isnt even theirs.
Now who's justifying. Where is the consent? Standing in the wrong facet? By that same token buyers and sellers know the risks in trading therefore there is a small degree of consent.
Lastly ... again, its a game. It isnt real.
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Do you really want one of us to go on a lecture about Social Learning Theory and how it's effects are amplified by the anonymity provided by online interactions?
most people when selling would like the highest price they can get and buyers would like the lowest price they can get. I have issues with duped, exploited items or any item that's not supposed to be in game. they should be deleted period. the devs have let some items made ok/legal while others be illegal/deleted on sight. this has caused so many issues of animosity, unfair practices and abuse. some have made billions while other have been burned.
ps has anyone really looked into these pets that have been trained, released, re-tamed and trained again. does anyone know how much better these pet are and will be allowed to keep them. when u find out, others should be informed. I don't know full extent, only rumors. unfreakin believable.
ps has anyone really looked into these pets that have been trained, released, re-tamed and trained again. does anyone know how much better these pet are and will be allowed to keep them. when u find out, others should be informed. I don't know full extent, only rumors. unfreakin believable.
Thanks for the offer but I'd rather watch paint dry
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You're welcome, and np.
Totally agree. Character does come through in a game (my opinion).
Had an ex-husband who always cheated at solitaire... among other things.
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Buy low.. sell high.. is the mantra for any merchant.. in UO or outside of it.
Do people who go into Goodwill and snag a $12,000 painting for $10 feel bad? Should they apologize? Errr.. nope. I will give you that a few years ago it was rather difficult for the normal/average player to know what the true value of something they had. But these days (with gen chat and vendor search) if someone does not know the value of what they have it is (in all honesty) due to their own stupidity or laziness. That being said.. if a "merchant" is trying to tell the person their item is only worth 5m and the item is truly worth 20m they are imo no longer a merchant but a Pawn Broker *shrugs* .. or in layman's terms.. the scourge of the merchant profession
Do people who go into Goodwill and snag a $12,000 painting for $10 feel bad? Should they apologize? Errr.. nope. I will give you that a few years ago it was rather difficult for the normal/average player to know what the true value of something they had. But these days (with gen chat and vendor search) if someone does not know the value of what they have it is (in all honesty) due to their own stupidity or laziness. That being said.. if a "merchant" is trying to tell the person their item is only worth 5m and the item is truly worth 20m they are imo no longer a merchant but a Pawn Broker *shrugs* .. or in layman's terms.. the scourge of the merchant profession
This reminds me of a thread on a musician's board I frequent where people were arguing the morality of a flea market find where some widow unloads an old expensive guitar from her late husband's collection for an unbelievably low price. About 1/2 of the posts were "Wow, total score!" and the other half were "You should be ashamed of yourself!"Buy low.. sell high.. is the mantra for any merchant.. in UO or outside of it.
Do people who go into Goodwill and snag a $12,000 painting for $10 feel bad? Should they apologize? Errr.. nope. I will give you that a few years ago it was rather difficult for the normal/average player to know what the true value of something they had. But these days (with gen chat and vendor search) if someone does not know the value of what they have it is (in all honesty) due to their own stupidity or laziness. That being said.. if a "merchant" is trying to tell the person their item is only worth 5m and the item is truly worth 20m they are imo no longer a merchant but a Pawn Broker *shrugs* .. or in layman's terms.. the scourge of the merchant profession
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To say those concepts aren't what made UO interesting and put this game on the map is to go against reality. UO wouldn't be here today if it didn't have that rough and tumble period. Hence there still is demand for free-shards that employ those rule sets.
I'm not suggesting a return to that play style by any means, but in it's hey-dey, it absolutely was a major part of what made UO great. Obviously the game has improved on those aspects over time (i.e., elimination of house keys, creating Tram), but many many people loved those early days of UO.
While I understand what you're getting at, hindsight is 20/20 and to compare UO to any modern MMO is equivalent to comparing X-Box to Original NES. UO was a successful MMO by many standards, even if it was because it was the "only game in town" or whatever other measure. It has left its finger print on the gaming world and that's noting to sneeze at.
Yea, sounds silly right? The same people who argue about some moral dilemmas of being a merchant here have no problem killing a deer for his hides.
But I tell you, how can you ever trust a person killing a deer in an online game? Pretty sure they killed bears too. Lovely bears. A peek into their poor souls. May god have mercy upon their souls.
But then, you can't expect people with blurred lines between gaming and real-life to understand. Makes for some good laughs though to see people arguing about UO like it had anything to do with your actual life.
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The problem is the lines are not as blurred as some like to think. The anonymity provided by online interactions allows the removal of inhibitions to engaging in behavior they otherwise would not. There have been a number of studies involving deindividuation in both the world on and offline, the Stanford Prison Experiment is one of the more famous experiments to have studied it for example.
The point is, actual scientific research has repeatedly shown that how we interact online is no different than how we do offline provided we have the same situational attributes such as anonymity, lack of repercussion etc.
You tell me there's nothing to justify but you provide a justification...
The "it's not real so it's okay" is a weak excuse.
I find the ones willing to screw others out of a few mil are often the ones who would do the same in rl.
Anytime you take advantage of someone whether the item is tangible or not, isn't ethical.
You spin that however you want.
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The difference between killing a deer and ripping off another player is that one is just pixels with no life force or thoughts, and the other is a real person in real life still. No one would care if people robbed and scammed the npc tailors and cobblers because they are still pixels, just like the deer is.
Where it differs is that although yes, technically it is the players pixel character being ripped off, it still affects them in real life on an emotional level which can cause harm in real life, even if it is only a small amount. It can even spread past that to other people not even involved in UO. For example let's say a guy gets ripped off in UO and is mad about it. So he goes out to a bar in real life and while there gets into a bar fight, which ends up putting someone in the hospital.
Theoretically that means that the merchant who ripped the guy off in UO indirectly caused a total stranger to get beat up in real life by the angry person the merchant ripped off earlier, who would not have been there if he wasn't mad about being ripped off. Just because it's a game doesn't mean actions don't have real life consequences on some level.
Im all for pking and stealing from other players. Those in no way violate UOs Terms of Service. In fact its very much an aspect myself and many others enjoy. When people use exploits outside of intended game play that's where I draw the line. This is known as scamming. Worst part of scamming is the fact that it happens mostly to Trammel players in a ruleset where there can be no kind of justice. People that scam know exactly what they are doing. Often times there may be no defense against it for people that aren't avid players. Ive always hated Trammel rules but it is counter productive to the game to scam in what is a "safe zone" as it just pisses people off. There really isn't any way to get a sense of retribution in Trammel so I avoid it as most I can.
As far as pricing things high or low who cares? Its a game. I run a Fel vendor with fair prices and its suits my needs just fine. Noone forces anyone to buy anything. I tend to price things on the low end as I feel vendor fees on items that take a while to sell do add up. I don't however price things far below the market price as re sellers will just scoop them up. I find getting good and quick value without giving things away as the way to do business.
As far as pricing things high or low who cares? Its a game. I run a Fel vendor with fair prices and its suits my needs just fine. Noone forces anyone to buy anything. I tend to price things on the low end as I feel vendor fees on items that take a while to sell do add up. I don't however price things far below the market price as re sellers will just scoop them up. I find getting good and quick value without giving things away as the way to do business.
ITS A FREAKIN' GAME!!!
I'm the same in and out of game, minus the glacial clothes I suppose. I'm so old, fat and lazy, I long ago lost the need for anonymity to be blunt and say what I feel and think in game and out.
I can agree the deer-thing is apple and oranges compared to knowingly *scamming* someone off. Still I doubt we would all be violent killers if rules IRL where the same as in UO.
Most of the PKs In games that I have met IRL would not be physically capable of being a violent killer IRL
There is a big difference between playing the role of a thief or murderer in a game and taking it to the extreme IE the GC humiliations and even a bigger difference in stealing somthing within the legal game mechanics and actively scamming and ripping someone off outside of acceptable ethics and legal use of the game mechanics. The nightmare/Dreadmare scam mentioned is a good example.