The Moral Dilemma Of Being A Merchant In UO

[Captn Norrington]

An argument I saw in Atlantic general chat where someone was being accused of scamming for buying things at very low prices got me thinking about this.

If you are a merchant in UO, is it morally or ethically wrong to knowingly buy something for a super cheap price from another player when you are aware that they don't know its actual value? The same thing applies for selling something for way more than it is worth to a buyer who doesn't know the average price.

The player is agreeing to the transaction, so you aren't stealing from them, but is it technically scamming to take advantage of someone who doesn't know any better because you purposely chose not to inform them of the normal price?

Some people might initially think "it's just business" but by that logic, isn't stealing from someone also "just business"? Either way you make money and the other person loses money.

Should the ethics of a merchant change depending on who they are doing business with? By that I mean is it wrong to take advantage of a new player because they are new, but ok to do it to a veteran player who has been around a while and should know better?

I'm curious what all of you think about this topic.

 

[Yadd of Legends]

Well first of all, Capn, it doesn't really matter what you and I think, does it, because people will do what they want to do anyway. Personally, I would feel bad buying something for far less than it's worth from a player - but I have snagged some items off vendors where the seller obviously left off a zero

 

[MalagAste]

I think we have all bought that "special" item at a fraction of the price and thought SWEET!!! SCORE!!!... Sometimes I feel bad if it's a vendor I know that normally prices things reasonably... However if it's someone I think it scamming the public with outrageous prices all the time ..... nah... I don't feel the least bit bad.

But I don't vendor anything myself. I have 2 vendors but they sit empty 99% of the time... and have for years... I have a Luna house that does have vendors on it but none of them are mine.

But if I hear someone in GC trying to pawn something at a ridiculous price I do often speak up and say "Hey! Don't buy that!" and will direct them to the same item for a decent price or warn them that the price is over-inflated... but yes... it bothers me.

 

[GarthGrey]

Greed is a tough one to overcome. You know for a fact that item so and so sells every day for 5 mil. One day you're in game and someone says they have item so and so for sale, but they don't know what they're worth. If you offer them 1 mil, knowing fully well it's worth 5, you're a bad greedy person. If that same person says I have this for sale and I want 1 mil for it, you know its worth 5, if you don't tell them that it's worth more, you're a bad greedy person. Both of these examples happen all of the time, unfortunately. Now if the discussion is purely vendor related, let the buyer beware, but let the seller beware too, if he/she typos the price.

 

[Prince Erik]

Personally I think there's no real right or wrong answer to that - everyone has to make a decision based upon their own internal code of conduct. There's nothing illegal about buying low/selling high and bargains are bargains on paper. I personally do not care about anyone's view on this matter even if it's different than mine. The only true scam, IMHO, is when people deliberately misrepresent items or prices in some way trying to trick people into overpaying or underselling.

That being said, I've been known to tell people at yard sales that they have something extremely under priced and in most cases I just get a shrug and a "you want it or not?" response.

Also keep in mind that if something is on a vendor under priced, someone is going to get it before the seller realizes it most likely!

 

[GarthGrey]

I personally do not care about anyone's view on this matter even if it's different than mine.

I laughed, and then stopped reading after that .

 

[Dizzy]

If somebody offered to sell me a singing crystal ball for 5 million, I'd buy it.

 

[BeaIank]

I guess that is relative.
I know that I either give away stuff or sell for way under their market value in UO because I don't care about pixel money. I had my fun procuring the item and if someone's day is made by getting it for free or for very cheap, all the better.
If they sell it later for massive profit, I won't care. Good for them if that made them happy too. It is their right to do so once I hand them the item.
Other people are quite likely to think different than me.

 

[Tyrath]

I guess that is relative.
I know that I either give away stuff or sell for way under their market value in UO because I don't care about pixel money. I had my fun procuring the item and if someone's day is made by getting it for free or for very cheap, all the better.
If they sell it later for massive profit, I won't care. Good for them if that made them happy too. It is their right to do so once I hand them the item.
Other people are quite likely to think different than me.

LOL that hole in your pack must be contagious as mine seemed to develop one on LS a while back and dropped all kinds of 120s all over my boat deck..... the pack must have known the passenger was having a hard time finding them and affording them at current prices

 

[Merlin]

Tough one. Ultimately "it depends" on intent. If you're out and out misleading someone to sell something to you for a cheap price, it's probably the wrong thing to do. But will there be consequences for it? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. However, our community usually identifies these people and it doesn't take long for word to travel that someone isn't a trustworthy and honest business associate. In example: how many of us have received a mass ICQ message from someone saying "buying ITEM X for 100 million" and then see that same person selling that item the next day for 300 million? At that point, it's up to the individual to either stop dealing with that person out of principle and spread the word, or continuing doing business with them in hopes that it benefits you at some point. The free market deals its own consequences... and advantages.

On the other hand... there is nothing wrong with being saavy enough to get yourself a good deal from time to time. As others have already said, everyone of us has probably both bought (and sold) something for a fraction of its true market value at some point, by way of missing a zero or some other time-related arbitrage. The proprietor has to take some responsibility here. If they don't know the value of an item... they should be asking someone they trust or doing something along the lines of posting a 'price check' thread in our Trader's Forum.

I will say this: the moral dilemma of UO's economics is one of the dynamic aspects of this game that has always been interesting. Real life economic concepts such as supply and demand, inflation, price ceilings, insurance, and many more are apart of the daily interactions in game. You can't ignore these concepts simply because you don't want to deal with it. As with any game, it has it's ups and downs, but it's been one of the driving forces behind UO's success for a long time (IMHO).

 

[Max Blackoak]

Some people might initially think "it's just business" but by that logic, isn't stealing from someone also "just business"? Either way you make money and the other person loses money.

congratulations! you just figured out the problem with capitalism

 

[petemage]

Some people might initially think "it's just business" but by that logic, isn't stealing from someone also "just business"? Either way you make money and the other person loses money.

I rather think "it's just a game". I lose some in-game gold maybe, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it

On my vendor I usually price things rather low since I find it more fulfilling to move stuff quick instead of getting another million out of it.

 

[Tyrath]

No different than buying low and selling high IRL. I find other farms going out of business and hit the sales they have and they name the price. If I like it I pay it, if I don't like it I will counter. Also really depends on who the person is, if its someone that has trash talked me or played dirty in the market......... I will low ball them as far as I can can laugh at their bankruptcy and foreclosure. Recently bought 100 40# feeder pigs at $2.50 per head was it a fair price......... nope going rate is $40-$50 per head for feeders but the jerk was desperate and fire selling everything. After I finish these process them and sell them I will turn $275-$325 profit per head on them. HAd it been someone decent that hit a bad streak and was going through a rough patch I most likely would have wrote the check for $200 per head and after feed and processing came out breaking even to a little ahead. In this case the jerk had been a destructive force in the local food chain and just got back what he handed out to so many others. Same usually works out in games like UO where your public and business reputation has meaning at the local level (Shard level in the case of the game)

 

[Lady Storm]

This has been a dilemma of mankind's short life on this planet.... Ever sense the idiot who started trade in the first place...
The law has a not so satisfying answer.. Cave at Emptor ... Let the buyer beware. You should in the laws position be up on what your buying or selling to know its value.
This many high end stock investors will tell you is doing your home work.

While this is the basis of the laws thinking it still feels wrong...

The early cave man had the right idea... everyone did what they could to bring food in it was all fixed in one common dish or pot and all ate from that .. no one went hungry even if they didn't find anything or a small amount.
Today... man has cut the throat of his fellow man to get to the dish first and eat the kings share and to hell with the others...
Cave man was the more human of us ....

 

[Dot_Warner]

This is an interesting set of questions.

To me, scamming in games isn't about buying an item for less than its "worth," its about intentionally tricking someone in a manner that could only benefit you. Things like the old ethy llama scam where a rideable llama looked like an ethy llama statue in the trade window (this isn't possible anymore).

Buy Low/Sell High isn't always a good idea, simply for the fact that the supply could implode or the original seller learns of the price uptick and ups their price...but that's more a matter of perspective. The people who buy low on small shards just to resell high on Atlantic, while not dishonest, are ultimately doing more harm than good for the "economy." Buuuuut... Its not as if those who do this are going to cause the original seller to starve, thus it is far easier to divorce oneself from any subjective morality. None of it is real.

With the advent of vendor search, its ridiculously easy to run a quick search and price your wares accordingly. I find it odd that more people don't bother to do this. I'll price check more exciting things on a few shards before vendoring it, just like I will when I buy certain things (to make sure someone isn't price gouging).

Do we even have an economy? Again, perspective. We literally have gold flowing into the world without being tied to anything tangible and bots who can farm it 23.5/7, hence the wild inflation. (I remember when having 10 million was considered super wealthy and everyone thought you must have duped it) So time can't really be considered a resource anymore, bots make it infinite.

Ultimately, if someone underprices and item, but is happy with the price they've set, that's their prerogative.

 

[ShriNayne]

People love a bargain, there can't be many of us that have never got something at a price we suspect might be wrong, sometimes you just don't know the true value, sometimes you just have a feeling there may have been a mistake. It goes both ways, often you buy something and a few vendors later see the same thing at a much lower price, you win some, you lose some. Happens often if you like to go shopping for random stuff and don't rely on vendor search.

 

[Great DC]

There is definitely a difference between buying low/selling high and scamming. Scamming is trying to sell something specific and giving them a different item. Remember when dreadhorse scam was around, where they say theyre selling one and also have a nightmare out nearby. You pay for the dreadmare and receive a nightmare instead, that's scamming. If someone is selling something and doesn't check the going price on it, that is on them. People learn from their mistakes usually and price accordingly later. Look at scroll prices right now, anyone that pays 50M for a tactics scroll is an idiot, not just cause you can farm one yourself, but the fact that it doesn't actually improve your pet is why. You just have to be intelligent about your decisions just like irl. Its no different then getting a phone call saying you won a free trip to Hawaii for no reason, its obviously a scam.

 

[Tina Small]

A couple of times over the years (before vendor search existed) I've bought a power scroll at what was clearly the wrong price and then tracked down the owner of the house and tried to return it to them so they could put it back on a vendor at the correct price. First time it happened (10 or 11 years ago on Baja) the seller took the power scroll back and thanked me. Second time, the seller just told me to keep it. The other times, I couldn't find anyone. Maybe it was foolish of me to try to return the scrolls, but it felt like the right thing to do. I guess I believe too much in that old saying of what goes around, comes around.

 

[Tyrath]

There is definitely a difference between buying low/selling high and scamming. Scamming is trying to sell something specific and giving them a different item. Remember when dreadhorse scam was around, where they say theyre selling one and also have a nightmare out nearby. You pay for the dreadmare and receive a nightmare instead, that's scamming. If someone is selling something and doesn't check the going price on it, that is on them. People learn from their mistakes usually and price accordingly later. Look at scroll prices right now, anyone that pays 50M for a tactics scroll is an idiot, not just cause you can farm one yourself, but the fact that it doesn't actually improve your pet is why. You just have to be intelligent about your decisions just like irl. Its no different then getting a phone call saying you won a free trip to Hawaii for no reason, its obviously a scam.

But but the relative that died in Nigeria and had a trunk full of cash for me....... It has to be real....the Email was from a Barrister afterall

 

[Fridgster]

I've had people offer well above average for an item to tell them the offer wasn't what I was looking for and then counter with a lower amount. It makes for a few laughs. In the real world though... it really becomes situational.

 

[Nonel]

Someone is willing to pay a certain price for an item (simple worth). Transaction is made and that person is happy with their new item and what they paid for it. They get pissed a day later because they find out that other people bought the item cheaper. Are they just jealous or is there some perceived insult?

 

[Archnight]

Personally I think there's no real right or wrong answer to that - everyone has to make a decision based upon their own internal code of conduct. There's nothing illegal about buying low/selling high and bargains are bargains on paper. I personally do not care about anyone's view on this matter even if it's different than mine. The only true scam, IMHO, is when people deliberately misrepresent items or prices in some way trying to trick people into overpaying or underselling.

That being said, I've been known to tell people at yard sales that they have something extremely under priced and in most cases I just get a shrug and a "you want it or not?" response.

Also keep in mind that if something is on a vendor under priced, someone is going to get it before the seller realizes it most likely!

best reply so far. A merchant is a person who trades in commodities produced by other people to earn a profit... while a scammer does everything in his/her power to steal from another usually by means of trickery, deceit and force

 

[Lady Storm]

When someone comes across and offers me a super high price for an item I know is not worth that much in the open market... I get very suspicious.
Why is the first thing I want to ask. they could go buy any of them I have seen on the sellers listings there is something wrong with this picture.
First thing that hits my mind is they are setting up a dupe load.....
yea yea I know it might be a over the top rich player who spots just what he is wanting that minute and I am the lucky seller.... (in a pigs eye)

 

[Merus]

Personally I think there's no real right or wrong answer to that - everyone has to make a decision based upon their own internal code of conduct.

Not to get too philosophical, but that sentiment right there is probably at the very core of so many of the things that are wrong with this world. We as individuals aren't the source of right and wrong.

The debate here is about trade in a video game, but I would wager you can tell a lot about a persons character by how they act. My character (real life) isn't something I would trade away for a few pixels in a virtual world.

I agree with the posters who have said it all comes down to intent. If you are deliberately taking advantage of someone's ignorance, then what you're doing is wrong. If you're deliberately being deceptive, what your doing is wrong. There may not be any consequence to speak of doing these things in a video game, but it reveals your character as a person.

 

[Prince Erik]

Not to get too philosophical, but that sentiment right there is probably at the very core of so many of the things that are wrong with this world. We as individuals aren't the source of right and wrong.

In some things I definitely agree - example, murder. But I actually think your interpretation is probably at the very core of so many of the things that are wrong with this world where individuals or groups try to force a set view of morality upon others based upon their own.

 

[arkiu]

What was once one of the greatest aspects of UO was the sense that there was real risk associated with decisions players made - whether it was to venture out of town in fel with that vanq katana or trading for a home in fel pre insurance and potentially getting ganked right afterward. Same thing applies to everyday trade. Ive highly underpayed and also been screwed on many occasions. When i was younger i would even lose sleep out of happiness or despair over a transaction i made in UO.

I see no problem with getting away with an amazing deal. Its just a game and its not like you are taking anything of actual value from a person. Maybe im an ******* though.

Wish people would accept that thats what made UO friggin awesome in the first place.

 

[Merlin]

What was once one of the greatest aspects of UO was the sense that there was real risk associated with decisions players made

This ^^^^

So many people today want to remove all risk from the game and create safe spaces where nothing can go wrong... but that's not what UO was ever meant to be. That includes anything from fighting in Fel, to trading and running the risk of being scammed, being robbed by a thief, and so on. It was that "wild west" feeling is what drove UO to its heights. Now, I'm not saying the game should return to some 15+ year old rule set and I'm sure anyone can bring up the old arguments of Tram v Fel, insurance and so on... but the game was never meant to be perfectly safe and scam-proof... and I hope it never is.

 

[Pawain]

This ^^^^

So many people today want to remove all risk from the game and create safe spaces where nothing can go wrong... but that's not what UO was ever meant to be. That includes anything from fighting in Fel, to trading and running the risk of being scammed, being robbed by a thief, and so on. It was that "wild west" feeling is what drove UO to its heights. Now, I'm not saying the game should return to some 15+ year old rule set and I'm sure anyone can bring up the old arguments of Tram v Fel, insurance and so on... but the game was never meant to be perfectly safe and scam-proof... and I hope it never is.

Maybe that's why Diablo has had such success and UO hasn't.

 

[Tyrath]

Sadly I have found peoples actions in online games are a peek into their soul RL only amplified in a online world with no real consequences. Like Grandma always said a person that will cheat in solitaire will not hesitate to cheat at anything else if given the opportunity. Its not whether someone actually loses anything, it is more about the character or lack of.

 

[MalagAste]

This ^^^^

So many people today want to remove all risk from the game and create safe spaces where nothing can go wrong... but that's not what UO was ever meant to be. That includes anything from fighting in Fel, to trading and running the risk of being scammed, being robbed by a thief, and so on. It was that "wild west" feeling is what drove UO to its heights. Now, I'm not saying the game should return to some 15+ year old rule set and I'm sure anyone can bring up the old arguments of Tram v Fel, insurance and so on... but the game was never meant to be perfectly safe and scam-proof... and I hope it never is.

Delusions... Seriously.... this sort of thing is what drove THOUSANDS from UO with such hatred that the mere mention of UO sends them on a rant for 30 min.... I've seen it in dozens of other games I played... TRUST me this was the WORST part of UO...

Some mention the love of the community... those people still have good memories that might bring them back but THOUSANDS of folk tried UO in the "early" years and came away with nothing but true hatred.

 

[Tyrath]

Delusions... Seriously.... this sort of thing is what drove THOUSANDS from UO with such hatred that the mere mention of UO sends them on a rant for 30 min.... I've seen it in dozens of other games I played... TRUST me this was the WORST part of UO...

Some mention the love of the community... those people still have good memories that might bring them back but THOUSANDS of folk tried UO in the "early" years and came away with nothing but true hatred.

Hehe they did not make tram because the game was booming

 

[arkiu]

Delusions... Seriously.... this sort of thing is what drove THOUSANDS from UO with such hatred that the mere mention of UO sends them on a rant for 30 min.... I've seen it in dozens of other games I played... TRUST me this was the WORST part of UO...

Some mention the love of the community... those people still have good memories that might bring them back but THOUSANDS of folk tried UO in the "early" years and came away with nothing but true hatred.

Ughhh... i tend to think it was the unicorns, dino loading screens, innovative artistic perspectives, neon broadswords, and gross misdirection by the dev team that drove away THOUSANDS from UO but im not calling anyone delusional.

 

[Merlin]

Delusions... Seriously.... this sort of thing is what drove THOUSANDS from UO with such hatred that the mere mention of UO sends them on a rant for 30 min.... I've seen it in dozens of other games I played... TRUST me this was the WORST part of UO...

Some mention the love of the community... those people still have good memories that might bring them back but THOUSANDS of folk tried UO in the "early" years and came away with nothing but true hatred.

Simply because some folks didn't care for a few aspects of the game that doesn't mean that others didn't love those things, because "TRUST me" many of us do.

Ironic to see you use the word "delusions". I suggest you consider re-reading many of your own posts. In example, you use the word hatred far too easily. If you're feeling "true hatred" from an online video game and it's leading you to go on half hour rants at the mere mention of it's name, it is probably time to find new hobbies. "Seriously."

To deny that the 'wild west' and risky feeling of UO wasn't one of it's initial drivers is to deny history. I'm not advocating for turning back the clock 15 years by any means... but the dynamic economy and there being some actual risk involved is still one of the biggest drivers of this game that leads to people wanting to rejoin their community, find old friends and make new ones.

 

[MalagAste]

Simply because some folks didn't care for a few aspects of the game that doesn't mean that others didn't love those things, because "TRUST me" many of us do.

Ironic to see you use the word "delusions". I suggest you consider re-reading many of your own posts. In example, you use the word hatred far too easily. If you're feeling "true hatred" from an online video game and it's leading you to go on half hour rants at the mere mention of it's name, it is probably time to find new hobbies. "Seriously."

To deny that the 'wild west' and risky feeling of UO wasn't one of it's initial drivers is to deny history. I'm not advocating for turning back the clock 15 years by any means... but the dynamic economy and there being some actual risk involved is still one of the biggest drivers of this game that leads to people wanting to rejoin their community, find old friends and make new ones.

Really have you ever asked other players on other games about UO???

Have you?

I have... Played with tons of folk on Landmark... few had fond memories of UO... many went on long rants about it and how it sucked and how it was the worst game they ever wasted money on... Their memories of the "early" days of UO pre-tram were so bad they wouldn't even consider ever looking at it again even after assurances that it wasn't anything like those days. Their HATRED for it was so strong... and yes I use that word and it's justified.

Wild West wasn't fun... Unless you were the overpowered one with the horde of friends to protect you and you got in the game in plenty of time to be on TOP... those who started AFTER Beta... who started later didn't find it fun to be pulverized, scammed, killed, looted, stolen from and destroyed within moments of logging in... or within seconds of leaving town...

I can guarantee that had I started in those days I would share that HATRED and would NEVER have played UO ever again... I wouldn't even have given it a second look and that is no lie... I'd probably have thrown UO in the trash and never looked back...

This is the sentiment held by tons of early UO players... in games I've played from Diablo to Landmark and many other games... So pull off those rose colored glasses and go ask around... Until you have you don't have a clue... if all you talk to are folk who "liked" that playstyle... then your opinion is Skewed... seriously flawed... Just in the guild/group I was in in Landmark which had over 300 people in it... about half of those actually played UO... less than 10 of them had fond memories... most of them couldn't believe UO still existed and of those folk most of them did NOT have good memories of the game and wouldn't come back for any reason at all... and many of those ranted about it.

Diablo spent hours in chat with several folk on many occasions... few if any of them liked UO... most spoke with disgust about the early days of UO... very few had positive comments... and if you want to continue to delude yourself why not try reading some of the posts on Steam about UO... NOT much nice things to say there...

Many of the EQ players don't speak fondly of the early days of UO... many of them played UO... Granted quite a number left after AoS... not looking back... but many of those said Trammel was a good thing... they talked of AoS ruining UO for them.

 

[The Craftsman]

You can't scam someone out of something they don't own. It's all just pixels, and EAs pixels at that. This isn't real life.

 

[MalagAste]

You can't scam someone out of something they don't own. It's all just pixels, and EAs pixels at that. This isn't real life.

Yeah well after using that attitude on someone you just robbed guess what.... they quit. After you keep doing that guess how many people still play UO???? Fewer and fewer by the day.

IMO that sort of attitude is why we have such a sick and corrupt player base anymore... to the point where I wouldn't recommend to ANYONE to play UO in it's current state.

 

[The Craftsman]

Yeah well after using that attitude on someone you just robbed guess what.... they quit. After you keep doing that guess how many people still play UO???? Fewer and fewer by the day.

IMO that sort of attitude is why we have such a sick and corrupt player base anymore... to the point where I wouldn't recommend to ANYONE to play UO in it's current state.

Too many people forget its a game. A role playing game. People will do things in a game that they wouldnt dream of doing in real life. Having said that I can honestly say Ive never scammed anyone in a game, or in real life (unless you count poker), but people become far far too attached to pixels. More so in UO than in any other game due to the way the game has gone. Its not really a game anymore .... its a bunch of people collecting pixels and forgetting they dont even own them. Is it actually even possible to lose anything in UO anymore expect through your own stupidity?

 

[Uvtha]

An argument I saw in Atlantic general chat where someone was being accused of scamming for buying things at very low prices got me thinking about this.

If you are a merchant in UO, is it morally or ethically wrong to knowingly buy something for a super cheap price from another player when you are aware that they don't know its actual value? The same thing applies for selling something for way more than it is worth to a buyer who doesn't know the average price.

The player is agreeing to the transaction, so you aren't stealing from them, but is it technically scamming to take advantage of someone who doesn't know any better because you purposely chose not to inform them of the normal price?

Some people might initially think "it's just business" but by that logic, isn't stealing from someone also "just business"? Either way you make money and the other person loses money.

Should the ethics of a merchant change depending on who they are doing business with? By that I mean is it wrong to take advantage of a new player because they are new, but ok to do it to a veteran player who has been around a while and should know better?

I'm curious what all of you think about this topic.

You are taking advantage of someone's ignorance, but in a game, I don't think it matters like it matters IRL. No one is going to go hungry, or die, or otherwise have their life derailed because you undercut them on a rare.

 

[Alex"Drake Iron Heart"CS]

I guess none of you are stock traders or day traders then!!!
This is the bread and butter of some, the eternal battle of buy low and sell high and take a profit on the way!

 

[Merlin]

Really have you ever asked other players on other games about UO???

Have you?

I have... Played with tons of folk on Landmark... few had fond memories of UO... many went on long rants about it and how it sucked and how it was the worst game they ever wasted money on... Their memories of the "early" days of UO pre-tram were so bad they wouldn't even consider ever looking at it again even after assurances that it wasn't anything like those days. Their HATRED for it was so strong... and yes I use that word and it's justified.

Wild West wasn't fun... Unless you were the overpowered one with the horde of friends to protect you and you got in the game in plenty of time to be on TOP... those who started AFTER Beta... who started later didn't find it fun to be pulverized, scammed, killed, looted, stolen from and destroyed within moments of logging in... or within seconds of leaving town...

I can guarantee that had I started in those days I would share that HATRED and would NEVER have played UO ever again... I wouldn't even have given it a second look and that is no lie... I'd probably have thrown UO in the trash and never looked back...

This is the sentiment held by tons of early UO players... in games I've played from Diablo to Landmark and many other games... So pull off those rose colored glasses and go ask around... Until you have you don't have a clue... if all you talk to are folk who "liked" that playstyle... then your opinion is Skewed... seriously flawed... Just in the guild/group I was in in Landmark which had over 300 people in it... about half of those actually played UO... less than 10 of them had fond memories... most of them couldn't believe UO still existed and of those folk most of them did NOT have good memories of the game and wouldn't come back for any reason at all... and many of those ranted about it.

Diablo spent hours in chat with several folk on many occasions... few if any of them liked UO... most spoke with disgust about the early days of UO... very few had positive comments... and if you want to continue to delude yourself why not try reading some of the posts on Steam about UO... NOT much nice things to say there...

Many of the EQ players don't speak fondly of the early days of UO... many of them played UO... Granted quite a number left after AoS... not looking back... but many of those said Trammel was a good thing... they talked of AoS ruining UO for them.

Yeah well after using that attitude on someone you just robbed guess what.... they quit. After you keep doing that guess how many people still play UO???? Fewer and fewer by the day.

IMO that sort of attitude is why we have such a sick and corrupt player base anymore... to the point where I wouldn't recommend to ANYONE to play UO in it's current state.

 

[Merus]

In some things I definitely agree - example, murder. But I actually think your interpretation is probably at the very core of so many of the things that are wrong with this world where individuals or groups try to force a set view of morality upon others based upon their own.

There in lies the problem with the logic... it really isn't both ways. If murder is inherently wrong regardless of any particular person or cultural belief then so are other things. The challenge is determining those things that are inherently wrong and those which are just not good for you (something like smoking for example).

For purposes of the OP, I would argue that dishonesty through deception or deliberate omission IS inherently wrong... and not subject to an internal personal code of conduct. While the impact of this in a video game is in most cases trivial, it does not make it less wrong.

 

[The Craftsman]

For purposes of the OP, I would argue that dishonesty through deception or deliberate omission IS inherently wrong... and not subject to an internal personal code of conduct. While the impact of this in a video game is in most cases trivial, it does not make it less wrong.

Killing in inherently wrong. But not in a video game. To compare real life and a video game as to what is right or wrong is asinine.

 

[petemage]

Sadly I have found peoples actions in online games are a peek into their soul RL only amplified in a online world with no real consequences. Like Grandma always said a person that will cheat in solitaire will not hesitate to cheat at anything else if given the opportunity. Its not whether someone actually loses anything, it is more about the character or lack of.

By that logic I should be scared to death of my friends shooting me when we play some GTA or the like *shrugs* UO is full of potential murderers as well Still I doubt anyone is plotting to kill me IRL to take my pants That's the kind of thought when people take games to serious.

And yes, I tried to cheat my parents when playing card games. It usually went wrong and made a good laugh for all of us. There was no bad blood the day after.

 

[petemage]

I have... Played with tons of folk on Landmark... few had fond memories of UO... many went on long rants about it and how it sucked and how it was the worst game they ever wasted money on... Their memories of the "early" days of UO pre-tram were so bad they wouldn't even consider ever looking at it again even after assurances that it wasn't anything like those days. Their HATRED for it was so strong... and yes I use that word and it's justified.

I agree, but I think you can't expect people that hardly played anything but UO in the last 20 years to understand how an outsider sees UO They will just go on to defend UO through their rose colored glasses.

 

[MalagAste]

I agree, but I think you can't expect people that hardly played anything but UO in the last 20 years to understand how an outsider sees UO They will just go on to defend UO through their rose colored glasses.

True enough... but in my "search" for something to replace UO since I see it going in directions I don't care for... I have met many former players... sadly many of them who didn't have good experiences in the game like I have. While I still love my fond memories of UO those fond memories that I've been building are becoming fewer and further between. And my disgust of things is growing to fill the void at an alarming rate. The pet revamp has rekindled some of my love for UO... but at the same time it's added to my disgust. Certain aspects of things have annoyed me.

I was hoping black widow spiders would have been included in tameables... I'm still hoping they can be added at some point. I'm not happy with the strange way that skills are added and how often what you plan isn't possible in practice if you don't add the skills in the right order you get (&$(%( and the pet is then garbage after you waited and waited to bond it and train it up and then you planned it all out and .... pfft..... fail.

Outsiders often old players some have a few fond memories but many of them didn't quit over fond memories... it was things like "Someone hacked my account and I lost everything and EA pretty much said tough cookies you are a cheat... when I did nothing." Or they say something like "I was struggling all the time having troubles and finally got sick of having someone come take everything I worked so hard for... they took my house and everything that was it... I was done... I hate that game." or they say things like ... "Oh it was fun but then they ruined the game making it itemized... after AoS I just couldn't keep up." many don't have good thoughts when it comes to UO... some talk about being cyber stalked... others talk about hacking, they talk about being harassed... and more and more talk about the lack of customer service... someone taking their account... And yes there are some that complained about Trammel ruining the game... but more in a sense that it broke up the RP communities and forced them to lose towns and such that dried up when Trammel came... or they couldn't move the town to where they wanted... or they spoke of friends long lost. Some who had played more recently spoke of the over complications of the game as to why they quit... they just didn't like it anymore.

 

[OREOGL]

An argument I saw in Atlantic general chat where someone was being accused of scamming for buying things at very low prices got me thinking about this.

If you are a merchant in UO, is it morally or ethically wrong to knowingly buy something for a super cheap price from another player when you are aware that they don't know its actual value? The same thing applies for selling something for way more than it is worth to a buyer who doesn't know the average price.

The player is agreeing to the transaction, so you aren't stealing from them, but is it technically scamming to take advantage of someone who doesn't know any better because you purposely chose not to inform them of the normal price?

Some people might initially think "it's just business" but by that logic, isn't stealing from someone also "just business"? Either way you make money and the other person loses money.

Should the ethics of a merchant change depending on who they are doing business with? By that I mean is it wrong to take advantage of a new player because they are new, but ok to do it to a veteran player who has been around a while and should know better?

I'm curious what all of you think about this topic.

Knowingly taking advantage of someone is always morally and ethically wrong.

If the person selling knows the value difference then no.

 

[Ivar the Great]

Knowingly taking advantage of someone is always morally and ethically wrong.

If the person selling knows the value difference then no.

Everyone looks for the good deal, especially when trying to keep a shop stocked. However, taking advantage of a new or returning player that is unfamiliar with pricing is about as low as anyone can get on the negative karma scale.

 

[jopromol]

With scroll prices being what they are right now, when I stock my vendors I deliberately check Vendor Search and undercut the lowest prices for scrolls so that my scrolls sell faster. Is that greed or good business sense? Am I doing a disservice to my other sellers or doing a good service to my customers? I think it is all subjective.

 

[Alex"Drake Iron Heart"CS]

With scroll prices being what they are right now, when I stock my vendors I deliberately check Vendor Search and undercut the lowest prices for scrolls so that my scrolls sell faster. Is that greed or good business sense? Am I doing a disservice to my other sellers or doing a good service to my customers? I think it is all subjective.

Where is your vendors??!! Hehehe I wanna buy them real cheap....... Thought it would be funny to add this remark into the thread for laughs

 

[jopromol]

Where is your vendors??!! Hehehe I wanna buy them real cheap....... Thought it would be funny to add this remark into the thread for laughs

South Luna Road, vendor shop: 120 Scrolls, vendor name: Restocked 7/11/17

Better go check now because I think I sold all the Parrys last night and the Chivalry and the Resists!