PvP dying a painful death from Tamers Online

[Fridgster]

The animosity is there no matter what is said. I'm a PVP'er, most of the people posting in the PVP thread are not. A good portion are not. And if snowflake pvp is offensive, imagine how offensive it is to someone who has to go to bat to fix it?

Thing is I do understand as do quite a few others. We are all passionate about this game. Heck that can be demonstrated by the number hoops that have to jumped through just to give uo our money. We are all adults here. I would hope that we can get our points and concerns across without resorting to demeaning others. From the get go many non-pvpers have constructively contributed to trying to figure out how to balance these issues without completely nerfing a much needed upgrade to tamers into oblivion.

 

[Great DC]

4/6 chivalry only became an issue when they added offense of holy fist to it. The last combat patch which broke archers down a lot and therefore removed the need for the mages to run parry also caused a new cookie cutter setup. The increase of the SDI across the board from 15 - 20 and the lowering of tactics made splinter wep mages king. Pure melee got pushed even further out of balance due to this cause they cant lower tactics without sacrificing damage output, mages keep damage output with bonus of bleeding and slowing their opponent without sacrificing anything. Yeah they can be disarmed, so what. They'll just run in circles til they rearm and go back to winning the fight. Tactics change should have been removed completely or left as it was. Pvp hasn't had any real balance since like 2009-2010 timeframe. Only survivable melee template is a smoke bomb one, without some kind of ranged ability (i.e. casting school or archery/throwing). Most of this is due to high end lootable items now, 4/6 templates wouldn't be that easy without global loot plus free FC from town bonus. Remove all this nonsense and take pvp world back skill based fights on even ground. This would also include removing CF and poison immunity as well.

 

[Slayvite]

Can i just add that us "oldies" who don't PvP anymore have probably forgotten more about PvP than the "youths" and their 3rd party programs will ever know.
Before claiming that somebody doesn't know what they are talking about because they currently don't PvP is frankly, Laughable.

It's like saying Mesanna knows what she is doing because she has the Producers job......

 

[cholupa]

Seems lot of ppl are in favor of removing dismount from pets. I think that is a good idea. But what is going to happen to the pets that already have dismount? Will they be refunded back the training points or replaced with another special move?

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

I am curious. Which PvP'rs will raise their hand and say they have actually been killed by a tamer one on one? Because if not, then I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about. If so, well that is a different story, and perhaps some sort of minor tweak might be in order if it is a common occurrence.

 

[MalagAste]

A Tamer CAN dismount. You are acting like having a pet takes 720 skill points for some reason. All pvp tamers DO have wep skills. You clearly are a lost pup out here.

And you are reading the post out of text... No they don't... and no I'm not... and not all tamers that go to fel go there to PvP... most the TAmers that go are there to farm scrolls.... the only reason they are in PvP right now is flavor of the month club but as soon as it's nerfed back to obscurity it'll go back to the way of the Silver Steed....

 

[BeaIank]

Seems lot of ppl are in favor of removing dismount from pets. I think that is a good idea. But what is going to happen to the pets that already have dismount? Will they be refunded back the training points or replaced with another special move?

While it would be nice to get points back from it, I will just be happy to see it gone.
It has zero use on PvM and my pets might be wasting mana by using it. So, it will be a good riddance to see it gone.

 

[Cetric]

With all the non-pvpers chiming in on PvP related issues without much if any experience or knowledge of the matter, it sure makes me want to make a compelling case for tamers to be nerfed in PvM in a new thread. Considering the amount if effort people have put into the thoughts of changes in order to NOT effect pvm, it is staggering how many of you continue to attempt to alter it.

Really don't think it'd be that hard. Leet said it best. All kill, consume damage, go get a drink, eat some snacks, come back, repeat.

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

I am curious. Which PvP'rs will raise their hand and say they have actually been killed by a tamer one on one? Because if not, then I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about. If so, well that is a different story, and perhaps some sort of minor tweak might be in order if it is a common occurrence.

*crickets*

 

[I Love Girls]

*crickets*

I have killed plenty of pvpers 1v1 on my tamer... its quite easy... Riding swipe all kill frenzied whirlwind holy fist if my pet hasnt killed the person already

 

[Aeyko]

With all the non-pvpers chiming in on PvP related issues without much if any experience or knowledge of the matter, it sure makes me want to make a compelling case for tamers to be nerfed in PvM in a new thread. Considering the amount if effort people have put into the thoughts of changes in order to NOT effect pvm, it is staggering how many of you continue to attempt to alter it.

Really don't think it'd be that hard. Leet said it best. All kill, consume damage, go get a drink, eat some snacks, come back, repeat.

If they have anything to do with the further downfall of PVP, I will start making some noise in PVM. Videoing how easy champs, shadowguard and events are done with these pets and maybe we can just make this game interesting again... Not just in PVP.... SInce some of these "non-PVPER's" believe we don't like a challenge...

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

*crickets*

Still *crickets* from the PvP'rs. So I can assume no one has actually died to a pet, therefore no changes need to be made! Problem solved

 

[Ruppy2]

this thread is a waste of time... they don't care

 

[leet]

Cant you simply add the "heat of battle" debuff to pets, except it does say caps resist at 70's , 25% hp reduction, 50% damage reduction, something simple. Oh your pets attacking a player, its nerfed for 2 minutes while attacking a player, oh that player died or left or unflagged blah blah your pet is amazing again kill anything you want thats not capped at 150 hit points!

Im sorry but no.

This is what PVM is now.

just gonna requote myself because i feel like im the only one that makes sense sometimes

adding a simple debuff when a pet flags a player is the easiest and probably at this point the most effective way to balance out pet pvp without affecting any aspect of pvm (even tho nothing any "pvper" on this thread that i have seen posted any changes that would affect pvm anyway)

 

[Slayvite]

just gonna requote myself because i feel like im the only one that makes sense sometimes

adding a simple debuff when a pet flags a player is the easiest and probably at this point the most effective way to balance out pet pvp without affecting any aspect of pvm (even tho nothing any "pvper" on this thread that i have seen posted any changes that would affect pvm anyway)

They couldn't code that in without it affecting PvM.
Simple example, Tamer is doing champ spawn....player runs in and targets pet and gets targeted back...pet is under debuff now....rest of the gank squad now run in and wipe pet + Tamer.

Nothing in UO is either PvP or PvM, it ALWAYS effects both sides.

 

[Uvtha]

They couldn't code that in without it affecting PvM.
Simple example, Tamer is doing champ spawn....player runs in and targets pet and gets targeted back...pet is under debuff now....rest of the gank squad now run in and wipe pet + Tamer.

But... you are describing a pvp situation, not a pvm situation.

And yes, it can effect either side if it's correctly designed.

 

[Uvtha]

Can i just add that us "oldies" who don't PvP anymore have probably forgotten more about PvP than the "youths" and their 3rd party programs will ever know.
Before claiming that somebody doesn't know what they are talking about because they currently don't PvP is frankly, Laughable.

That's like saying that since someone mastered an Amiga back in 1987, that they are therefore well informed on modern computers...

The game, and pvp have both changed a TON in the last 10 years, it's quite possible that you actually don't know what you are talking about. Maybe you do, but simply saying "I used to pvp" doesn't mean you get current pvp or can make educated comments on the current state of affairs. I mean pvp back in the day was simply proload explosion, hit some with a hally target the explode and hit them with a Corp por. Pvp is exceptionally more complex now, and someone who had not pvped in the interim would be completely lost.

Do you think someone who was pvming in 1998 would really understand modern pvm game, for example? They really wouldn't.

 

[RhelHalcyon]

But... you are describing a pvp situation, not a pvm situation. [bcolor=rgb(16, 16, 16)][/bcolor]

And yes, it can effect either side if it's correctly designed.

The issue is that this opens up possibilities to grief others without the intent of PvPing. Changes done to PvP will always affect PvM. The fact that the most noisy of the PvP group choose to ignore this and not comment on it just shows that. I've yet to see someone give an example of a change that benefit PVP that didn't affect PvM - which is where PvPers should be putting their case.

"Change this now! But we have no good suggestions on how to change it without it changing other aspects of game play."

 

[Slayvite]

That's like saying that since someone mastered an Amiga back in 1987, that they are therefore well informed on modern computers...

The game, and pvp have both changed a TON in the last 10 years, it's quite possible that you actually don't know what you are talking about. Maybe you do, but simply saying "I used to pvp" doesn't mean you get current pvp or can make educated comments on the current state of affairs. I mean pvp back in the day was simply proload explosion, hit some with a hally target the explode and hit them with a Corp por. Pvp is exceptionally more complex now, and someone who had not pvped in the interim would be completely lost.

Do you think someone who was pvming in 1998 would really understand modern pvm game, for example? They really wouldn't.

Well since i was playing PvM in '98 and i still play MMO's today, then yes we have no problem understanding it.
We grew with the game so for us we didn't just "learn" the new game, we have understanding of the inner workings too and EVERY change and how it affected gameplay and as such will know more than the youngsters ever will unless they go back to '98 and start from there too.

*drops mic*

 

[Uvtha]

The issue is that this opens up possibilities to grief others without the intent of PvPing. Changes done to PvP will always affect PvM. The fact that the most noisy of the PvP group choose to ignore this and not comment on it just shows that. I've yet to see someone give an example of a change that benefit PVP that didn't affect PvM - which is where PvPers should be putting their case.

I don't see how it does this. If you are in fel, the only place it would matter, then you accept you are open to attack. The only time it would come into play is if you got into a pvp scenario. Changes to pvp don't necessarily alter pvm, and usually if they do it's not in such a serious manner than it makes a real impact.

 

[Uvtha]

Well since i was playing PvM in '98 and i still play MMO's today, then yes we have no problem understanding it.
We grew with the game so for us we didn't just "learn" the new game, we have understanding of the inner workings too and EVERY change and how it affected gameplay and as such will know more than the youngsters ever will unless they go back to '98 and start from there too.

*drops mic*

Nonsense. I have played since 98 too, and I can say with confidence that playing back then and playing now, are not at all the same thing. You cannot understand how modern pvp works as well, let alone better than people who actually pvp in the current setting.

 

[RhelHalcyon]

I don't see how it does this. If you are in fel, the only place it would matter, then you accept you are open to attack. The only time it would come into play is if you got into a pvp scenario. Changes to pvp don't necessarily alter pvm, and usually if they do it's not in such a serious manner than it makes a real impact.

The debuff to a pet would seriously alter PvM. Say I'm doing something in Fel and someone comes along and tried to kill me. I kill them. Then instead of coming back to PvP me, they just start hit and running my tamed to give it the Debuff, severely crippling my pet and making it more difficult for me to PvM. I can now spend my time trying to kill them again and again to remove the buff, or I can leave. Either way it will lead to griefing.

 

[Uvtha]

The debuff to a pet would seriously alter PvM. Say I'm doing something in Fel and someone comes along and tried to kill me. I kill them. Then instead of coming back to PvP me, they just start hit and running my tamed to give it the Debuff, severely crippling my pet and making it more difficult for me to PvM. I can now spend my time trying to kill them again and again to remove the buff, or I can leave. Either way it will lead to griefing.

This scenario is unrealistic. The notion that a pvper who can't beat a pvmer will spend his time running around flagging a pet just to make you less effective in pvm is just not something I can see happening, and certainly not on a regular basis. Honestly this seems like a far fetched scenario invented to oppose anything changing than it does an example of regular gameplay. This kind of scenario would never happen to most players, and the impact to pvmers would be so minimal as to be nonexistent.

Of course if you want to completely insulate yourself from pvp... you can do so. If you want to risk getting into a pvp scenario, that's your choice.

 

[Aeyko]

The issue is that this opens up possibilities to grief others without the intent of PvPing. Changes done to PvP will always affect PvM. The fact that the most noisy of the PvP group choose to ignore this and not comment on it just shows that. I've yet to see someone give an example of a change that benefit PVP that didn't affect PvM - which is where PvPers should be putting their case.

"Change this now! But we have no good suggestions on how to change it without it changing other aspects of game play."

Enlighten me on how removing dismount, teleporting and adjusting the casting range correctly will affect PVM. I'd be interested to hear what monsters you're dismounting to kill in trammel....

 

[Cetric]

This scenario is unrealistic. The notion that a pvper who can't beat a pvmer will spend his time running around flagging a pet just to make you less effective in pvm is just not something I can see happening, and certainly not on a regular basis. Honestly this seems like a far fetched scenario invented to oppose anything changing than it does an example of regular gameplay. This kind of scenario would never happen to most players, and the impact to pvmers would be so minimal as to be nonexistent.

Of course if you want to completely insulate yourself from pvp... you can do so. If you want to risk getting into a pvp scenario, that's your choice.

Pretty much sums it up

 

[TheDrAJ]

The real problem occurs that if changes are made that affect pvp (like tele, dismount and casting range) it won't be enough. The pvps will want even greater changes. The non-pvp people know this and will fight for no change to avoid even more nerfs.

I agree that tele, dismount and casting range will not affect pvm much at all but I am going to guess that this will not satisfy 80% or more of the pvp (because they think if they make enough protest other changes will be made). While the non-pvp people will won't be happy either knowing it won't stop the discussion until all pets become totally not a threat to the pvp.

Like wise (my opinion) the thought that pvp and pvm are separate and not interrelated is laughable.

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

If a tamer wants to come to Fel should his pet be neutered into uselessness if attacked? NO!. So leave it alone.

I have yet to have ONE PvP'r respond that they were killed by a pet. Perhaps it's just not as easy as it was, and that's the real problem!

Also, wasn't the problem originally with the phoenix and and the speed? They took care of that for the PvP bunch. Now it's something else? Where does it end?

 

[Fridgster]

If a tamer wants to come to Fel should his pet be neutered into uselessness if attacked? NO!. So leave it alone.

I have yet to have ONE PvP'r respond that they were killed by a pet. Perhaps it's just not as easy as it was, and that's the real problem!

Also, wasn't the problem originally with the phoenix and and the speed? They took care of that for the PvP bunch. Now it's something else? Where does it end?

It won't.

 

[Martell]

The real problem occurs that if changes are made that affect pvp (like tele, dismount and casting range) it won't be enough. The pvps will want even greater changes. The non-pvp people know this and will fight for no change to avoid even more nerfs.

I agree that tele, dismount and casting range will not affect pvm much at all but I am going to guess that this will not satisfy 80% or more of the pvp (because they think if they make enough protest other changes will be made). While the non-pvp people will won't be happy either knowing it won't stop the discussion until all pets become totally not a threat to the pvp.

Like wise (my opinion) the thought that pvp and pvm are separate and not interrelated is laughable.

Wow so it's not like you're arguing about mechanics you don't know about based on some unsubstantiated fears and claims....really helpful feedback you're providing

 

[Martell]

If a tamer wants to come to Fel should his pet be neutered into uselessness if attacked? NO!. So leave it alone.

I have yet to have ONE PvP'r respond that they were killed by a pet. Perhaps it's just not as easy as it was, and that's the real problem!

Also, wasn't the problem originally with the phoenix and and the speed? They took care of that for the PvP bunch. Now it's something else? Where does it end?

You guys are acting like modifying new content is something unheard of. It's pretty darn common in most every online game...

The pheonix issue was so clearly in need of a fix. It moved as fast as a pre-patch Cu. They nerfed pre-patch Cu's a while ago because they moved to0 fast in pvp. Why would they intentionally add a more powerful version of that to the game? It was clearly an oversight on the part of the devs...

Now that folks have had time to train up pets to the max, it's clear that other aspects of the massive, briefly tested new content also needs to be adjusted.

I don't get why any of this is abhorrent to you guys...

 

[Cetric]

If a tamer wants to come to Fel should his pet be neutered into uselessness if attacked? NO!. So leave it alone.

I have yet to have ONE PvP'r respond that they were killed by a pet. Perhaps it's just not as easy as it was, and that's the real problem!

Also, wasn't the problem originally with the phoenix and and the speed? They took care of that for the PvP bunch. Now it's something else? Where does it end?

Tamers werent useless before the taming revamp, and they wont be useless after potential nerfs. You guys just want your super pets and you got a taste of power and want to keep it. It happens over every overpowered thing that has ever been. A group wants it nerfed, another group wants it protected because they enjoy exploiting the power, arguments are made for and against, and then balancing occurs.

This is nothing new, its just that a whole bunch of pvm tamers love their overpowered pets and dont want to see them ruined. I get it. So let them be nerfed into slightly better versions of their former selves in pvp only and call it a day. If the Devs blow them up into oblivion for pvm too, thats not from our voices, thats their decisions.

 

[Scott]

The implication of a pet that can tank any spawn solo and rarely need heals, etc... cool to think of...
UO provides tamers with God mode... you didn't even know you needed it until you got it and now you cannot live without it; it's what you've always dreamed of... you can tank anything - including people... boring!

These threads are a waste of time, just as my 18 year investment into my accounts...


As has been stated hundreds of times before, a new patch has come with and people are exploiting the new powers. they will eventually get nerfed but not quick enough to save a group of people from walking away. And then once they finally nerf it, they will lose the other portion of players too who argued against it... it's always a lose lose situation!

Call me pessimistic or look at UO's grand history of content implication... you'll maybe get a "lightbulb" experience from it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Aeyko]

If a tamer wants to come to Fel should his pet be neutered into uselessness if attacked? NO!. So leave it alone.

I have yet to have ONE PvP'r respond that they were killed by a pet. Perhaps it's just not as easy as it was, and that's the real problem!

Also, wasn't the problem originally with the phoenix and and the speed? They took care of that for the PvP bunch. Now it's something else? Where does it end?

If PVP is so "easy" why don't you and some of your pals posting here, give it a shot? I'd welcome any of you to try, I can be online with a simple PM and I can show you just how "easy" PVP is. In reality, it's not easy, it's especially annoying when you get dismounted by a pet that wasn't even on your screen .1 seconds prior... Very simple fix. However Cetric hit the nail on the head, you PVM'ers want your super pets to do all of the work for you. I have stated my case several times now on fixing dismount, teleport and casting speed and range. It's really that simple.

 

[Cetric]

The pvps will want even greater changes..

Maybe, but we'll see what the Devs do. Balls in their court. There are a few other taming related items that haven't been discussed publicly, and other abilities that just flat out haven't been used. But if the majority of proposed (PVP RELATED ONLY) changes go into effect, I think that would satisfy most.


Ps. I work with this lady that refers to computers (PCs) as CPs. It drives me insane. You remind me of her every time you refer to players that partake in pvp as "pvps" like in the quoted. It stands for player versus player. In case you were not aware, I thought I'd educate you.

Thanks

 

[Cetric]

The implication of a pet that can tank any spawn solo and rarely need heals, etc... cool to think of...
UO provides tamers with God mode... you didn't even know you needed it until you got it and now you cannot live without it; it's what you've always dreamed of... you can tank anything - including people... boring!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OMG this is a great quote. Take notice @Bleak @Kyronix @Mesanna

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

For the last time, I ask, which PvP'rs have been killed by a pet ???? So far no one will admit to it. So apparently there is no problem. Ball is in your court PvP'rs, either admit that the pets are killing you, and let's figure out what tweaks are good for ALL. Or just give it a rest.

FYI, on ATL yesterday afternoon and evening there were a few pets in Fel. But nobody that I saw got killed to them. It must have just been an "off day" for pets killing players. ROFL

 

[Cetric]

For the last time, I ask, which PvP'rs have been killed by a pet ???? So far no one will admit to it. So apparently there is no problem. Ball is in your court PvP'rs, either admit that the pets are killing you, and let's figure out what tweaks are good for ALL. Or just give it a rest.

FYI, on ATL yesterday afternoon and evening there were a few pets in Fel. But nobody that I saw got killed to them. It must have just been an "off day" for pets killing players. ROFL

I don't get what you are getting at...

I've been killed by pets.. Aeykos been killed by pets... i think we've all been killed by pets. Like, why would anyone flip out about teleport dismount 4/6 casting pets? Its not like we're just sitting in Despise drinking raspberry iced tea watching tamers walk by, slapping our knees going "damn that thing looks OP, sure hope it never attacks anyone".

What is your point again?

I have a pvp setup tamer. Do you want to check it out?

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

I don't get what you are getting at...

I've been killed by pets.. Aeykos been killed by pets... i think we've all been killed by pets. Like, why would anyone flip out about teleport dismount 4/6 casting pets? Its not like we're just sitting in Despise drinking raspberry iced tea watching tamers walk by, slapping our knees going "damn that thing looks OP, sure hope it never attacks anyone".

What is your point again?

I have a pvp setup tamer. Do you want to check it out?

You are the 1st person who has actually said they have been killed by a tamer. That's my point.

 

[Cetric]

You are the 1st person who has actually said they have been killed by a tamer. That's my point.

Ok...

 

[Aeyko]

You are the 1st person who has actually said they have been killed by a tamer. That's my point.

Every PVP'er posting here has been plagued by these rampant dismounting pets. I've personally killed a PVP 4/6 bushido tamer with my PVM tamer due to an OP Cu Sidhe that I clearly abused to beat the PVP tamer. It's stupid and not intended. No one has to single out any other person to satisfy an argument with someone who doesn't PVP. Cetric and I have both invited you to check out these pets and how "easy" PVP is, I'm going to assume that you respectfully decline that offer. Would I be correct in that assumption?

 

[Drakelord]

You mean there a chance that I might win a fight in Fel next time? Wow

 

[Scott]

You are the 1st person who has actually said they have been killed by a tamer. That's my point.

Several different times people in other threads have mentioned death by pet...

I've died a ton to tamers... lots of people have died to tamers- heck- funniest thing last week was when the dude "all kill" targeted self. Pet killed him so fast he couldn't say all stop.. HAHA! ... but this isn't a confession group!

I'll go join 12 steps if I need to do some personal reflection!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Cetric]

Several different times people in other threads have mentioned death by pet...

I've died a ton to tamers... lots of people have died to tamers- heck- funniest thing last week was when the dude "all kill" targeted self. Pet killed him so fast he couldn't say all stop.. HAHA! ... but this isn't a confession group!

I'll go join 12 steps if I need to do some personal reflection!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

rofl I had one of those where the guy accidentally all killed himself and he couldn't get it off while i was dumping him. Had another one where I stun-bolad a guy, stuck pet on him and right as the guy was redlined and trying to get a Gheal up, the pet teleported onto him and meleed him dead from across the screen

Both were some of the funniest things I've seen in a while

If it didn't lag me really bad id start videoing these fights =/

 

[Uvtha]

The real problem occurs that if changes are made that affect pvp (like tele, dismount and casting range) it won't be enough. The pvps will want even greater changes. The non-pvp people know this and will fight for no change to avoid even more nerfs.

What are you basing this argument on? It doesn't seem especially defensible to me, seeing as pvpers have asked for changes and been satisfied with the changes made, on the whole... until changes are made or new content is added and a new issue arises, and that's just like any other player.

You are basically arguing that there should never be a pvp alteration ever made again. How is that fair?

 

[Uvtha]

You are the 1st person who has actually said they have been killed by a tamer. That's my point.

Someone replied to your first question as well, a few posts down saying they had killed many people with pets, which of course is the same thing. Of course you need not be killed by a pet for it to be an issue, as you may have just stopped showing up because pets are now everywhere.

Needless to say your "point" being that you claim no one is being killed by tamers is clearly not accurate. Lots of people are.

 

[Revan123]

I don't think pets need any HUGE nerfs. I think they need a bunch of small ones. Pet's should not teleport. They should not cast on you 3 screens away (a nerf that should've happened 5 years ago). Pets should not be un-killable, or there should at least be some major trade-offs to making a pet nearly un-killable. Damage vs. players should be reduced by another 5-10% (to 35-40%).

Let's not over-do it on the nerfs though. We've killed enough templates in the past year, lets not make playing tamers in pvp dumb as fk too now, the same way we killed archers, wrestle parry mages, and to some extent deathstrikers (exactly what I said would happen btw).

 

[PaithanTheElf]

And you are reading the post out of text... No they don't... and no I'm not... and not all tamers that go to fel go there to PvP... most the TAmers that go are there to farm scrolls.... the only reason they are in PvP right now is flavor of the month club but as soon as it's nerfed back to obscurity it'll go back to the way of the Silver Steed....

I don't really care why tamers go to fel. If they are in fel- they have to play by those rules. They made multiple other lands for people that want to play with 0 risk. A person that doesn't pvp shouldn't be expected to beat someone that only pvps and has much better gear- much like I don't have a pvmer and would get dominated if I tried (unless i wanted to take the time and resources to make a dedicated pvmer *barf*). This whole patch was just mind boggling from start to finish by adding it to pvp.

 

[Cetric]

I don't think pets need any HUGE nerfs. I think they need a bunch of small ones. Pet's should not teleport. They should not cast on you 3 screens away (a nerf that should've happened 5 years ago). Pets should not be un-killable, or there should at least be some major trade-offs to making a pet nearly un-killable. Damage vs. players should be reduced by another 5-10% (to 35-40%).

Let's not over-do it on the nerfs though. We've killed enough templates in the past year, lets not make playing tamers in pvp dumb as fk too now, the same way we killed archers, wrestle parry mages, and to some extent deathstrikers (exactly what I said would happen btw).

None of the templates you just named are by any means killed, they were just toned down and rightfully so. Archers ai reduced and moving shot fixed, rightfully so considering it was ranged dmg same or better than a non ranged melee. Parry wrestle scribe focused mage, highest possible casting damage as well as highest possible mage defense... Didn't make a lot of sense. Right after those two changes you could argue templates were as balanced as they've been in a decade. I still have two parry mage flavored mages and use them both more than any other char...

I'm not sure what you are referring to about Deathstrike, what was changed with it? I still see deathstrikers playing their temps just as they ever have.

 

[PaithanTheElf]

The real problem occurs that if changes are made that affect pvp (like tele, dismount and casting range) it won't be enough. The pvps will want even greater changes. The non-pvp people know this and will fight for no change to avoid even more nerfs.

I agree that tele, dismount and casting range will not affect pvm much at all but I am going to guess that this will not satisfy 80% or more of the pvp (because they think if they make enough protest other changes will be made). While the non-pvp people will won't be happy either knowing it won't stop the discussion until all pets become totally not a threat to the pvp.

Like wise (my opinion) the thought that pvp and pvm are separate and not interrelated is laughable.

No the real problem was pushing this out without listening to the community when they were testing it.

 

[TheDrAJ]

What are you basing this argument on? It doesn't seem especially defensible to me, seeing as pvpers have asked for changes and been satisfied with the changes made, on the whole... until changes are made or new content is added and a new issue arises, and that's just like any other player.

You are basically arguing that there should never be a pvp alteration ever made again. How is that fair?

ahh - how about 4/6 casting?

First I am not arguing that "pvp alteration ever made again" - where did I say that or even come close to saying that.
Second - I base my conclusions on human nature and past changes. People usually pick one or two things to complain about and when that is fixed they move on to their next complaint knowing that if they complain about 5 or 6 things, they are unlikely to win on all.
Third - Look at the sneers by the playerkillers at the pvm players or the constant taunts about being a trammie.
Fourth - both sides dislike the others because it doesn't fit their play style and both are arguing for what they believe.

I am sure changes will be made but everyone wants the changes to affect the other guy and not themselves.