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NEWS [UO.Com] Combat Changes in Testing

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OREOGL

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I'd say knock it down to 20% at gm and 25% at 120. A 10% reduction overall. I am sure people would still complain it is too OP though. Also, I don't remember all the proposed changes from back then. I am going off what people have said since all the testing/changes have been implemented- mainly this month. But... good idea!
Not sure you both are on the same page.

He suggested the nerf for only wrestle/anat parry templates that can chug.

Yours seems to be for parry in general.

The general nerf would remove any chance at using templates with just parry. Though really, I'm guessing this is a rarity since they'd get wrecked at 35% block and even further at 25%.
 

Aeyko

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Weird how a big talker like you who loves to post on the boards never had one screenshot of me on any boards isn't it? But you had a secret folder of screenshots of me on your old PC? lol. Very believable. And yes it is weird to still catching you in lies about a video game (remember last time you posted a "kill" of me?).

Anywho- I was talking about the new hit spell moves- bone crushing specifically, thanks for checking up on my testing, though.
Bonecrusher is on ONE wep. Not even a good wep, and it's OP? per Bleak, whom I've actually tested the wep with, this will not be on any other weapons making it just fine and with over 50 dex and minimal stam regen, it's almost negated. Great testing you did there... Or lack thereof.

Last thing I'm going to address about this 1v1 thing you want to keep dragging on. I've requested this on HOT boards and you cowered just like you will now. 10 out of 10 fights, pure or field fight on wrong roof or arena. I'll beat you 10 out of 10, I'll be on TC if Bleak is testing this evening, if not I'll gladly meet up on Atlantic and kick the dog **** out of you. Wanna take the offer this time? Everyone here and on Atlantic will answer that for you. Coward.

We finally get the focused spec half way fixed and now you guys want to start harassing Bleak about parry. Reduce the HCI and place a lower defense timer on dexers and then we can talk about parry. If no one is willing to nerf dexers further than they are being nerfed now (Which isn't that much IMO) then I do not believe a reduction in parry should be on the table either. But then again, I don't hide behind dexers like some people that cower away from individual pvp.
 
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Obsidian

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I like where your head is at. However, it was extremely hard to get the 25 sdi. We tested many spell buffs and multiple changes to justify having the SDI bumped for focus spec mages while leaving the focus spec list alone. Bleak kindly made the adjustment to 25 sdi, which seems fair.
The current changes reduce the SDI difference between focused and non-focused from 15 to 5. I think we will see a migration away from focused mages and back toward hybrid templates, possibly with scribe. There has to be some benefit beyond 5 SDI else we are back to we were a few years ago where mage PvP was overwhelmingly mystic-mages. What about some additional MR? I'm trying to think of benefits that logically match with one being "focused".


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Cutter

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Removing 30% pvp sdi off items pretty much makes "pure" wrestle/scribe templates non-viable. This doesn't even have anything to do with the parry issue either.

I can't be the only mage who is still wrestle/scribe out there.
 

Old Vet Back Again

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Wakkis needed a nerf prior to masteries and the loot pack bump. In today's UO they can go back to what they were. But that was a necessary nerf for the current time of UO. Dis-arm wakki spam was OP

SW does achieve in essence 2-3 specials in 1, but I am ok with the current proposed changes.

So after just glancing at the updated list, does this mean there is a focus list and non focus list and the difference is 30% and 25%? And, does that mean mystic and necro spells hit 25%? I will be on test after work to confirm all of this but if someone wants to entertain me while I work that would great.
 

OREOGL

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Removing 30% pvp sdi off items possibility pretty much makes "pure" wrestle/scribe templates non-viable. This doesn't even have anything to do with the parry issue either.

I can't be the only mage who is still wrestle/scribe out there.
I think I have a wrestle scribe poisoning Mage but pretty much most pvp scenarios make him unviable.
 

Cutter

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I think I have a wrestle scribe poisoning Mage but pretty much most pvp scenarios make him unviable.
Ever since the end of the instahit hally-whack days, the wrestle mage has been a STAPLE of PvP.
 

Turles (UHOH)

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Well this "hit spell" as you call it- has the same effect as a special (bleed) AND walks you. That would be a powerful special BY ITSELF. It can be stacked with other specials. Having 2 specials for the price of one hit at the same time is insanely overpowered. The only people that would disagree are people that need it to attempt to be competitive.

The cost is determined by the market and that is because everyone knows how overpowered it is currently- so not sure what your point is on that.
So using your thinking isnt ep overpowered because everyone pays way more then what they should because its insanely overpowered also?
 

Turles (UHOH)

Adventurer
Stratics Veteran
IF you bring focus spec back with no new restrictions then were back at square one again? Nothing will change as the focus mage has the best template again. The parry healing mage or parry alchy mage will still be the FOTM template. I don't understand why this seems so difficult, we need to bring the balance down on parry mages and archers and everything seems to circle back around and make them the best again.
Its this way because everyone is trying to protect wres parry mages. Who are so hard for any warrior to hit its just crazy but they continue to try and protect that build as much as possible.
 

Bleak

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I'm on TC now (Yew Gate) for anyone looking to test and give feedback. I will only be discussing the changes that are listed in the current notes. I will be here for about 2 hours.
 

Cutter

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I play a wrestle parry scribe mage and don't give AF what's done to parry.

Just don't make wrestle mages non-viable, which giving a wrestle/scribe mage the same SDI as a hybrid mage (whom potentially might even have scribe), that can AI, splinter and whatnot, would obviously do.
 

Cutter

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  • 30 Tactics & 70 Weapon Skill are required for Primary Moves
  • 60 Tactics & 90 Weapon Skill are required for Secondary Moves
Is this backward or was it a change? Thought it was the other way around before, potentially making it easier to play more diversified hybrid templates.
 

PaithanTheElf

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So using your thinking isnt ep overpowered because everyone pays way more then what they should because its insanely overpowered also?
Umm.. what? EP doesn't determine the price of jewels. It is a combination of having everything on a jewel that will determine it's worth. But... good try... I guess?

Kind of like splintering alone doesn't matter. But if it is on the right wep added with fireball and other mods of course it will be supremely overpriced because of how OP the wep is. Not sure what you were trying to prove.

And if you are asking if there is OP jewels out there ... then yes, yes there are.
 

cobb

Sage
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  • 30 Tactics & 70 Weapon Skill are required for Primary Moves
  • 60 Tactics & 90 Weapon Skill are required for Secondary Moves
Is this backward or was it a change? Thought it was the other way around before, potentially making it easier to play more diversified hybrid templates.
Sorry. No more hybrids for anyone.

Makes me sad.

It seems the majority here wants the Tactics requirement taken out, but it doesn't seem to make a difference
 
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OREOGL

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Current spell damage with SDI Changes for a mage with scribe @ 35 sdi:


CURSE DELAY = 1.25 (.75 W/ FC2)

DAMAGE W/ CURSED TARGET

10 EXPLOSIONS: 33, 35 ,33, 32, 34, 32, 33, 35, 34, 33 = 334


AVG = 33 pts.
HI = 35 pts.
Delay = 1.75 Base (1.25 W/ FC 2)

DAMAGE W/ CURSED TARGET:

10 FLAME STRIKES 42, 41, 42, 44, 41, 44, 44, 42, 41, 42 = 423

AVG = 42 pts.
HI = 44 pts.

Delay = 2 BASE (1.5 W/ FC2)



COMBO AVG = 75 pts.
MAX COMBO = 79 pts.


Add in nova max of 27 pts = max damage burst 106 pts. in 3.5s with one curse (you can argue apple if you want and currently on test would be 4 total with .5 s nova delay)
AVG damage burst = 102 pts.


Now if we are just talking parry wrestle mage with alchemy and scribe, this is hardly overpowered.

If someone with 50 ep and alchemy chugs a heal pot theyll instantly gain


@ep 50 + alchemy

41, 36, 36, 43, 45, 37, 43, 43, 39, 43 = 406

AVG.= 41 pts.
HI = 45 pts.


Conversely the parry mages defense = 67.5% with wrestle (or anat/weapon skill). not including alchemy magicresist magery and eval for the damage burst (which is actually 800 required points, items arguable). will still be hit 1/3 of times or every 3.75 seconds minimum.

live theyd be hit with an archery for 35+7+11 = 53 every 3.75 seconds minimum with damage burst potential of 159 points in 3.75 seconds (53 pts every 1.25 S) not including possibility of nova for another 27 pts. So damage burst potential is up to 186 with the same potion healing by the mage. (up to 4.25s with current nova delay)


Why do we consider the parry mage to be so overpowered?
 
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virem

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Current spell damage with SDI Changes for a mage with scribe @ 35 sdi:


CURSE DELAY = 1.25 (.75 W/ FC2)

DAMAGE W/ CURSED TARGET

10 EXPLOSIONS: 33, 35 ,33, 32, 34, 32, 33, 35, 34, 33 = 334


AVG = 33 pts.
HI = 35 pts.
Delay = 1.75 Base (1.25 W/ FC 2)

DAMAGE W/ CURSED TARGET:

10 FLAME STRIKES 42, 41, 42, 44, 41, 44, 44, 42, 41, 42 = 423

AVG = 42 pts.
HI = 44 pts.

Delay = 2 BASE (1.5 W/ FC2)



COMBO AVG = 75 pts.
MAX COMBO = 79 pts.


Add in nova max of 27 pts = max damage burst 106 pts. in 3.5s with one curse (you can argue apple if you want and currently on test would be 4 total with .5 s nova delay)
AVG damage burst = 102 pts.


Now if we are just talking parry wrestle mage with alchemy and scribe, this is hardly overpowered.

If someone with 50 ep and alchemy chugs a heal pot theyll instantly gain


@ep 50 + alchemy

41, 36, 36, 43, 45, 37, 43, 43, 39, 43 = 406

AVG.= 41 pts.
HI = 45 pts.


Conversely the parry mages defense = 67.5% with wrestle (or anat/weapon skill). not including alchemy magicresist magery and eval for the damage burst (which is actually 800 required points, items arguable). will still be hit 1/3 of times or every 3.75 seconds minimum.

live theyd be hit with an archery for 35+7+11 = 53 every 3.75 seconds minimum with damage burst potential of 159 points in 3.75 seconds (53 pts every 1.25 S) not including possibility of nova for another 27 pts. So damage burst potential is up to 186 with the same potion healing by the mage. (up to 4.25s with current nova delay)


Why do we consider the parry mage to be so overpowered?
There is absolutely no reason to lower focus mages from 30 SDI to 25, the whole thing is just crazy.
 

OREOGL

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There is absolutely no reason to lower focus mages from 30 SDI to 25, the whole thing is just crazy.
Well man to think originally they were trying to have alchemy and/or parry down to the 15 non focus spec. That would have dropped the damage burst to roughly 99 pts while archer damage just from AIs didn't change.

Even for a straight Melee it'd be 35+11 every 1.25s.

It's just a silly argument.

No one wanted to argue balance vs non parry mages and archers.


Why? because the damage is so lopsided which is why people use parry to begin with.


Tonight a group of people even tried to convince bleak to get the sdi cap back down to 20 sdi again.
 

virem

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Well man to think originally they were trying to have alchemy and/or parry down to the 15 non focus spec. That would have dropped the damage burst to roughly 99 pts while archer damage just from AIs didn't change.

Even for a straight Melee it'd be 35+11 every 1.25s.

It's just a silly argument.

No one wanted to argue balance vs non parry mages and archers.


Why? because the damage is so lopsided which is why people use parry to begin with.


Tonight a group of people even tried to convince bleak to get the sdi cap back down to 20 sdi again.
It's absolutely ridiculous. They think people play parry mages because they are so strong offensively, when it's just not true. It was just the easiest way to get parry on your character and still have damage. The buff to 20 sdi for other schools of magic is enough to get people playing other templates, but instead of making incremental changes we are going to just do it all at once.

Mystic and necro are still going to have bigger burst potential than a focused mage does with 25 SDI.
 

leet

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@Bleak

In regards to the meeting today, myself and these players @CovenantX @Great DC @drcossack @OREOGL (these are the only people i actually recognized)
With no **** talk and no bias'd and actual conversation i think the best idea for archery would be:

Warriors Gift:
Lets remove the +HPI overcapping bonus from Warriors Gift and Make it Instead 5hci/5dci/5ssi
-Whats this do? Well for starters no one should be 155 hit points, and the fact that most people are already max hci max dci they are really pretty useless, ssi would be a good compromise to at least add something usable.
-This will also benefit pvmers as well as the pvp community and i think its something all warriors/archers/throwers could use under any circumstance
-I understand the ssi buff will SLIGHTLY increase the hit spell on weapons(in regards to pvp) but you are only gaining 18 imbue weight (which is only +6% lightning bonus and +1 damage inc for example)

Archery Nerfs:
Pretty much most people are in agreeance that this new SSI/damage/balancing thing is really quite over the top. And it feels really unnecessary for such a simple fix
-For example as an archer with 120 tactics / 120 anatomy / 100 damage increase / 120 stamina <------
*Armor ignores were hitting out of 5 for 30/30/30/30/31
*The fact that a max dmg archer cannot hit a spell that is literally called armor ignore negating armor at max damage (which was capped a long time ago) is bonkerz.

Proposed change:
-Remove all this weird damage/speed/calculating weirdness that is going on.
-Keep running shots for doing physical damage (personally i think this should ONLY be for composite and not for a cyclone) <-- cyclones hit for like 10 dmg running shots sometimes less
-Keep the slightly increased chance to miss (if necessary)
-Personally i think if you miss you should maybe get HALF the mana back since we are increasing the chance to miss further but that doesn't seem to be sticking with anyone.
-CAP a composite bow at 1.5 seconds max for PVP only.
(i believe earlier you were testing poison immunity for PVP only so i dont see how that could be a problem)

I feel this is the easiest, non complicated way to fix arguably the most complained part about archery by most players as well as giving the pvm community a nice buff they can actually use.

@virem @Revan123 @Kiss Of Death @Aeyko @Critical Gaming <-- also tagging some mages who have alot of opinions on archery and have been very vocal in these threads
 
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leet

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Armor ignore does less than 35 on archers??
they do now. had to go down to 0 swing speed increase, and 120 stamina to do 35 everytime due to these weird tick/damage changes they did
 

DJ Diddles

Sage
Stratics Veteran
It's SSI based, and I believe more gives you less damage. I saw a range of 28-35 from @OREOGL, who had 100% DI & 120/120 Anat/Tactics? Correct me if I'm wrong on anything.
It's not SSI-based, it's just swinging speed based so stamina plays a massive role as well. Yes 28-35 was the range he witnessed, although he claims to have only hit 35 one time out of many attempts. To get 35 damage armor ignores every time you need to have what Leet said, which are not realistic for any PvP archer except for archer mages.
 

Lord Frodo

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Someone please explain why this guy is still here?



If you haven't made a suggestion then what exactly is your purpose posting opinions? I've done my best to explain each change and even logged on TC to help Bleak see in game what I am talking about. Is the environment hostile? Yea, look at your counterpart that I quoted above... Always angry posting with opinions and bringing no value to the conversation. Simply here to troll people.



I like where your head is at. However, it was extremely hard to get the 25 sdi. We tested many spell buffs and multiple changes to justify having the SDI bumped for focus spec mages while leaving the focus spec list alone. Bleak kindly made the adjustment to 25 sdi, which seems fair.



You're still here? And still lying because I do not have my old PC with screenshots of you. GG lying about a 20 year old wizard game. To add to the point, you've tested nothing. You're a liar and a troll. If you had tested the 0 tactics, you'd have seen 0 tacts AI's do 20hp damage (Not worth the mana used) and all of the other specials are relatively meaningless outside of one or two. You and your coward tendencies make me sick. You can take it to the HOT boards where you're cradled by your group of trolls and no attempt to back up any of the **** that spews from your mouth. You're a cave troll that only appears when you have someone to hold your hand. Nothing more.
LMAO Could it be that I have a right to be here no matter what you think.
 

Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Yes, it absolutely is!

The average player wants a Damage-Tank-Healer in one character.
The average player does not understand, that there has to be a trade-off between offense and defense.

People always claim, that UO is so diverse, because it doesn't force your character into a specific class.
In the end the majority of players sticks with a handful of certain working templates (classes in other MMOs) with minor differences in skill loadout (talents & perks in other MMOs).
I honestly question that diversity big time.

So everyone playing with the same Damage-Tank-"Template of the month" might also be some sort of balance. But if that is the balance, which makes UO more interesting and enjoyable is doubtful.
Huh? Idk what you're saying... So a focus spec parry mage is a "damage-tank-healer," but a bushido parry holy fister isn't? Or an archer?

There already are trade-offs. If you can't recognize them, you need to think a little more about it.

120 skill points of parry or 120 skill points of resist/alchemy/bushido/spellweaving/etc/etc/etc?

That's called a trade-off sir, and it's a pretty big one considering parry only really helps when fighting non mages.
 

Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Who says i dont about Bushido Archers or Bushido Fisters? I just said i wouldnt call Bushdio/Archers good cause they use the maybe most effective template. I have my own ideas that way and maybe think different. But if you think Parry/Mages arent OP to dexxers 1 vs 1 wise, I stop arguing here, because its no use.
You said, "What good pvp archer has bushido?" Either you can't recognize the good archers from the bad ones, or you can't recognize when one of them is using confidence. If you don't recognize the effectiveness of a bushido archer or a melee holy fister, then you are very ill-informed with competitive pvp mechanics in 2016. Those right there are two of the three most effective templates today, and the reason that parry mages are most certainly not OP, and here you are arguing that they're not even good. You're more than free to stop arguing at any time. It's not like you're making many points. You just keep saying over and over that parry mages are OP to dexxers without providing any substance to support that claim whatsoever.
 
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Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Personally I never understood why they went through all the effort to nerf the wakazashi slow, which costs mana to use, but they left splintering alone. And splintering is a double effect. I was against the waki nerf, still am. But I can agree with what a pain splintering is. I think is should be something that can be removed via apple... just like sleep. Or it should be reduced to a 2-3 second slow just like the Waki was.
Agreed. And I agree. They need to increase the waki slow to 3 seconds and make it and the splintering effect remove-able with an apple.

Last time I brought this up, everyone cried that wakis were OP. But it USED TO BE a 4.5 second slow, NOW it's a 1.5 second slow (although a few people said 2 seconds). I want to put it right in between at 3 seconds and make it remove-able with apples. There's no reason we can't do this change. It's not OP.
 

Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
The delay is a half second as of yesterday and is at the user's location.


There are no additional changes planned for splintering at this time.

I will be on TC later today. Be sure to check out the latest notes that are available for testing on TC.;)
Bleak, are you like a member of the focus group or something? Or are you an actual developer? And if you actually pvp how much do you pvp? and if so, what shard?
 

Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Yah, dunno why focus spec is being changed at all at this point.
Now instead of doing away with it entirely, they want to reduce the sdi cap of it from 30-25, even thought it's not overpowered at all. It's clear that they're just trying to find the middle ground of player feedback to appease people because they don't actually know what they're doing. The one reason that focus spec mages did more burst damage than mystics was because of one reason- Supernovas. Focus mages could easily fit alchemy on a template, where as doing that with mysticism was much hard (while also fitting parry). If a mystic could fit wrestle, parry, and alchemy on their template, then no one would've been playing focus alchy mages. Now Mystics are getting 20 sdi and focus mages are being reduced to 25 sdi, AND supernova damage is getting nerfed. Mystics are going to do way more damage at 20 sdi than a focus spec will at 25. ESPECIALLY with the supernova nerf (which btw, was the main reason that focus spec mages did more burst damage than mystics). I wish they knew mechanics well enough to just leave the focus mage cap at 30 and buff the regular cap to 20.
 
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Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Well this "hit spell" as you call it- has the same effect as a special (bleed) AND walks you. That would be a powerful special BY ITSELF. It can be stacked with other specials. Having 2 specials for the price of one hit at the same time is insanely overpowered. The only people that would disagree are people that need it to attempt to be competitive.

The cost is determined by the market and that is because everyone knows how overpowered it is currently- so not sure what your point is on that.
In todays game I don't think splinter disarm is overpowered anymore. It's the one way to effectively kill bushido parry dexxers- and this is coming from someone who has mainly played a bushido parry dexxer for the past half a year. But I think the slow affect on splinter could definitely be reduced to about 3 seconds (the same time I think the waki slow should last for). I also think both slow effects should be cleanse-able by apples (the same way sleep is).
 

Revan123

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I am not one of the elite few, self proclaimed or otherwise. But I have been adding my two cents to the changes. I think the problem happens when people are requesting stuff that others feel will break the game even more, and they don't present a reason. I have been advocating to add parry to the focus restriction list, a concept that some of the "elite few" as you call them aren't too fond of. But I try to present reasons and logic with my argument. Thats different than just saying "mages shouldn't have parry". If I said that, it won't be well received, and I don't give any reasons to explain myself. I think all pvpers globally are concerned of someone requesting something ridiculous and it going into effect without any real rhyme or reason. And its not unfair to say that several people who do not pvp often try to add their 2 cents. Not that they shouldn't be allowed to, but some sort of reason should be provided as to why.
And it's a good thing that you try to support your claims with reasonable arguments, rather than simply restating them over and over again. Not that I have a problem with someone expressing their opinion, but there are people here who are stating things like they are facts over and over again without giving any input.

To counter your point, I think parry is a little bit of a game breaker. It makes things heavily RNG based. Archers hit less often, but when they do, they do monstrous amounts of damage. How do we do away with this? There's two options. We get rid of all the gear that was made/farmed after reforging came out- OR, we nerf the parry chance marginally (STRONG emphasis on marginally) and reduce bow base damage marginally (STRONG emphasis on marginally). Taking the focus mage spec away from parry characters is NOT going to fix the issue, nor will lowering the sdi cap to 25 for focus specs. People will just start playing 20 sdi wrestle parry mystic mages. I PROMISE that. Non-parry mages ALREADY DO have way better offenses than parry mages. There is ALREADY a major trade-off for having parry. But nurfing the sdi of parry mages is NOT going to balance the game. I already displayed this on my chart, if you take away the spell damage of parry mages, you take away their ability to kill ANYONE. ALL you have to do to survive a parry mage, is run. They need a decent amount of spell damage. If you disagree, just test your spell damage with a 30 sdi on a main shard, then test it with a 20 sdi mystic on tc.
 

Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
You haven't tested them but you have an opinion? Good job. I have tested them and while they are new, can be worked around and seem to have been thought out well in the same hit chances of 20% as of most splinter weps.

LMAO @ your record bs. That's the same as me claiming to be up on @Revan123 in pure mage duels because I only dueled him a few times this year and many times in the 2009/2010. It's 2016 little guy. Anytime you'd like I can educate you on where you stand against me individually. In fact, I already have had lots of fun embarrassing your pitiful spell play in front of @Forsaken and @pepsi cola uo several times. Pepsi's exact words were "It's not even a comparison"... Don't get it twisted grasping at straws and making attempts to derail threads that you have shown no attempt to test or bring ANY value to the game. Mickey mouse chicken tactics from the possum himself @Kiss Of Death , we should be used to this by now.
Actually... no. We dueled one time in the end of summer of 2011. Not that it matters, your point is still valid, but the statement that we dueled many times in 2009/2010 is inaccurate. Let's try to stay on topic though.
 

Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
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I'd say knock it down to 20% at gm and 25% at 120. A 10% reduction overall. I am sure people would still complain it is too OP though. Also, I don't remember all the proposed changes from back then. I am going off what people have said since all the testing/changes have been implemented- mainly this month. But... good idea!
I disagree. I think we should start at the margin and see if it's satisfactory. Reduce the parry chance by 5% across the board. 30% at 120 with a shield/1 handed weapon with bushido; 35% with a two handed weapon + bushido; 25% at gm. If we reduce it by a whole 10% (from 35-25% at 120) right off the bat, it will result in almost a third less hits being parried. Archers are still going to be powerful as hell. Let's not jump the gun.

But yeah, the idea of reducing parry chance is a good idea, I thought of it before, but idk why I never suggested it. I guess I didn't give it enough thought to realize that it could be practically applied. However, it is important to emphasize that we ALSO need to reduce the base damage of bows, if we're going to reduce parry chance.
 

Revan123

Seasoned Veteran
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@de LEET ed

Here's what we need to do.

1. Reduce base damage on bows by about 10%.
2. Reduce moving shot damage by 20%. Decreasing chance to hit means it will still hit overly-hard sometimes, and not at all other times. Let's just reduce the damage overall and reduce the RNG super hits.
3. Reduce parry chance by 5% across the board. (will result in ~15% less parried blows with 120 parrying w/ a shield). This will balance the
4. Return mortals to the way they used to work, where the duration of each successful mortal hit after the first would be halved, but lower the overall duration time of mortals (from 8 to 6 seconds / 4 to 3 seconds on second mortal), and increase the duration of time that mortal duration will be diminished. With damage nerfs, Archers will still need a way to kill people with parry.
5. Make cleansing winds remove mortal + heal, but heal at a reduced amount (the same way it works against poison).
6. Make Spirit-Speak heal for way more damage. This isn't 2003. The skill needs a MAJOR buff.
7. Increase waki slow duration from 2 to 3 seconds (used to be 4.5) and make it cleansable by apples
8. Eliminate tactics requirement ENTIRELY. This is completely necessary to give tank/archer mages the template versatility they need to be viable. Reducing it by 30 is not enough.
9. Increase SDI cap to 20 (already doing that).
10. Keep the SDI cap for focus spec at 30. With a lower parry chance, parry focus specs will get disrupted more; and with 20 sdi, mystic burst damage will equal that of a 30 sdi focus mage. 25 sdi will not be enough for focus mages to compete with mystics- everyone will stop playing focus mages (eventually). The issue is not parry focus mage damage, it's how hard they are to hit. If we reduce their parry chance marginally, and reduce archer damage marginally, it will balance the playing field for EVERYONE.
 
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CovenantX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Agreed. And I agree. They need to increase the waki slow to 3 seconds and make it and the splintering effect remove-able with an apple.

Last time I brought this up, everyone cried that wakis were OP. But it USED TO BE a 4.5 second slow, NOW it's a 1.5 second slow (although a few people said 2 seconds). I want to put it right in between at 3 seconds and make it remove-able with apples. There's no reason we can't do this change. It's not OP.
Apples don't need to remove forced walk. because Bandages already do...
You don't even need Healing or Anatomy for this to occur... Forced walk is removed when the bandage is done being applied. you do need healing for it to stop the bleed ticks from splintering though. I'm sure it's the "positioning" you're worried about though.
 

Bleak

UO Software Engineer
VIP
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Well man to think originally they were trying to have alchemy and/or parry down to the 15 non focus spec. That would have dropped the damage burst to roughly 99 pts while archer damage just from AIs didn't change.

Even for a straight Melee it'd be 35+11 every 1.25s.

It's just a silly argument.

No one wanted to argue balance vs non parry mages and archers.


Why? because the damage is so lopsided which is why people use parry to begin with.

Tonight a group of people even tried to convince bleak to get the sdi cap back down to 20 sdi again.
I just want to thank everyone who has come out to TC this week and provided feedback. This has been a long week and I have taken a lot of time to reflect on your feedback.
It is my opinion that ranged Dexers(archers/throwers) out class every template in DPS in this current Meta and that focused mages even with 30 sdi are still not close.
The proposed changes to the ranged weapon damage calculation taking the swing speed of the weapon into account is to help to solve this issue.
My goal is to add more diversity in templates and I feel that the range in DPS must be tweaked in order to open up templates. I also feel that the increase of ranged DPS has pushed templates to rely on parry more for survivability.
I understand that DPS is not the only factor to balance but I view it as an important step forward. Thanks again for your patience during this process.
 

Great DC

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
@Bleak

In regards to the meeting today, myself and these players @CovenantX @Great DC @drcossack @OREOGL (these are the only people i actually recognized)
With no **** talk and no bias'd and actual conversation i think the best idea for archery would be:

Warriors Gift:
Lets remove the +HPI overcapping bonus from Warriors Gift and Make it Instead 5hci/5dci/5ssi
-Whats this do? Well for starters no one should be 155 hit points, and the fact that most people are already max hci max dci they are really pretty useless, ssi would be a good compromise to at least add something usable.
-This will also benefit pvmers as well as the pvp community and i think its something all warriors/archers/throwers could use under any circumstance
-I understand the ssi buff will SLIGHTLY increase the hit spell on weapons(in regards to pvp) but you are only gaining 18 imbue weight (which is only +6% lightning bonus and +1 damage inc for example)

Archery Nerfs:
Pretty much most people are in agreeance that this new SSI/damage/balancing thing is really quite over the top. And it feels really unnecessary for such a simple fix
-For example as an archer with 120 tactics / 120 anatomy / 100 damage increase / 120 stamina <------
*Armor ignores were hitting out of 5 for 30/30/30/30/31
*The fact that a max dmg archer cannot hit a spell that is literally called armor ignore negating armor at max damage (which was capped a long time ago) is bonkerz.

Proposed change:
-Remove all this weird damage/speed/calculating weirdness that is going on.
-Keep running shots for doing physical damage (personally i think this should ONLY be for composite and not for a cyclone) <-- cyclones hit for like 10 dmg running shots sometimes less
-Keep the slightly increased chance to miss (if necessary)
-Personally i think if you miss you should maybe get HALF the mana back since we are increasing the chance to miss further but that doesn't seem to be sticking with anyone.
-CAP a composite bow at 1.5 seconds max for PVP only.
(i believe earlier you were testing poison immunity for PVP only so i dont see how that could be a problem)

I feel this is the easiest, non complicated way to fix arguably the most complained part about archery by most players as well as giving the pvm community a nice buff they can actually use.

@virem @Revan123 @Kiss Of Death @Aeyko @Critical Gaming <-- also tagging some mages who have alot of opinions on archery and have been very vocal in these threads

Although I do agree with most if what was said here. I can see the drop to AI versus speed as a good thing, it doesn't nerf any speed as an archer just looses a few points of damage. I feel this is a decent compromise. I understand that AI has been a guaranteed 35 di per shot forever, but you have to take into consideration all the changes that have happened in the past three to four years. To me the drop in high DPS is what is needed to get things balanced in PvP. If we don't drop the high DPS in templates, then we need a raise in either HP cap or a lower stam/mana cap. Global loot has made a significant change in the world of pvp. We either have to catch up to it, or have caps to balance it.
 

DJ Diddles

Sage
Stratics Veteran
I just want to thank everyone who has come out to TC this week and provided feedback. This has been a long week and I have taken a lot of time to reflect on your feedback.
It is my opinion that ranged Dexers(archers/throwers) out class every template in DPS in this current Meta and that focused mages even with 30 sdi are still not close.
The proposed changes to the ranged weapon damage calculation taking the swing speed of the weapon into account is to help to solve this issue.
My goal is to add more diversity in templates and I feel that the range in DPS must be tweaked in order to open up templates. I also feel that the increase of ranged DPS has pushed templates to rely on parry more for survivability.
I understand that DPS is not the only factor to balance but I view it as an important step forward. Thanks again for your patience during this process.
You cannot say this, and also say this:
  • 30 Tactics & 70 Weapon Skill are required for Primary Moves
  • 60 Tactics & 90 Weapon Skill are required for Secondary Moves
Choose one.
 

quovadis

Visitor
Stratics Veteran
@Bleak

In regards to the meeting today, myself and these players @CovenantX @Great DC @drcossack @OREOGL (these are the only people i actually recognized)
With no **** talk and no bias'd and actual conversation i think the best idea for archery would be:

Warriors Gift:
Lets remove the +HPI overcapping bonus from Warriors Gift and Make it Instead 5hci/5dci/5ssi
-Whats this do? Well for starters no one should be 155 hit points, and the fact that most people are already max hci max dci they are really pretty useless, ssi would be a good compromise to at least add something usable.
-This will also benefit pvmers as well as the pvp community and i think its something all warriors/archers/throwers could use under any circumstance
-I understand the ssi buff will SLIGHTLY increase the hit spell on weapons(in regards to pvp) but you are only gaining 18 imbue weight (which is only +6% lightning bonus and +1 damage inc for example)

Archery Nerfs:
Pretty much most people are in agreeance that this new SSI/damage/balancing thing is really quite over the top. And it feels really unnecessary for such a simple fix
-For example as an archer with 120 tactics / 120 anatomy / 100 damage increase / 120 stamina <------
*Armor ignores were hitting out of 5 for 30/30/30/30/31
*The fact that a max dmg archer cannot hit a spell that is literally called armor ignore negating armor at max damage (which was capped a long time ago) is bonkerz.

Proposed change:
-Remove all this weird damage/speed/calculating weirdness that is going on.
-Keep running shots for doing physical damage (personally i think this should ONLY be for composite and not for a cyclone) <-- cyclones hit for like 10 dmg running shots sometimes less
-Keep the slightly increased chance to miss (if necessary)
-Personally i think if you miss you should maybe get HALF the mana back since we are increasing the chance to miss further but that doesn't seem to be sticking with anyone.
-CAP a composite bow at 1.5 seconds max for PVP only.
(i believe earlier you were testing poison immunity for PVP only so i dont see how that could be a problem)

I feel this is the easiest, non complicated way to fix arguably the most complained part about archery by most players as well as giving the pvm community a nice buff they can actually use.

@virem @Revan123 @Kiss Of Death @Aeyko @Critical Gaming <-- also tagging some mages who have alot of opinions on archery and have been very vocal in these threads
i agree with that and the 5 ssi sound good
Now instead of doing away with it entirely, they want to reduce the sdi cap of it from 30-25, even thought it's not overpowered at all. It's clear that they're just trying to find the middle ground of player feedback to appease people because they don't actually know what they're doing. The one reason that focus spec mages did more burst damage than mystics was because of one reason- Supernovas. Focus mages could easily fit alchemy on a template, where as doing that with mysticism was much hard (while also fitting parry). If a mystic could fit wrestle, parry, and alchemy on their template, then no one would've been playing focus alchy mages. Now Mystics are getting 20 sdi and focus mages are being reduced to 25 sdi, AND supernova damage is getting nerfed. Mystics are going to do way more damage at 20 sdi than a focus spec will at 25. ESPECIALLY with the supernova nerf (which btw, was the main reason that focus spec mages did more burst damage than mystics). I wish they knew mechanics well enough to just leave the focus mage cap at 30 and buff the regular cap to 20.
parry mage alchy was never a probleme ,focus spec should ave 30 sdi and no timer on nova.and cap the non focused to 20 is great.but maybe they ave a probleme with parry but only parry.
  • 30 Tactics & 70 Weapon Skill are required for Primary Moves
  • 60 Tactics & 90 Weapon Skill are required for Secondary Moves
Is this backward or was it a change? Thought it was the other way around before, potentially making it easier to play more diversified hybrid templates.
removing tactic was the best move
@de LEET ed

Here's what we need to do.

1. Reduce base damage on bows by about 10%.
2. Reduce moving shot damage by 20%. Decreasing chance to hit means it will still hit overly-hard sometimes, and not at all other times. Let's just reduce the damage overall and reduce the RNG super hits.
3. Reduce parry chance by 5% across the board. (will result in ~15% less parried blows with 120 parrying w/ a shield). This will balance the
4. Return mortals to the way they used to work, where the duration of each successful mortal hit after the first would be halved, but lower the overall duration time of mortals (from 8 to 6 seconds / 4 to 3 seconds on second mortal), and increase the duration of time that mortal duration will be diminished. With damage nerfs, Archers will still need a way to kill people with parry.
5. Make cleansing winds remove mortal + heal, but heal at a reduced amount (the same way it works against poison).
6. Make Spirit-Speak heal for way more damage. This isn't 2003. The skill needs a MAJOR buff.
7. Increase waki slow duration from 2 to 3 seconds (used to be 4.5) and make it cleansable by apples
8. Eliminate tactics requirement ENTIRELY. This is completely necessary to give tank/archer mages the template versatility they need to be viable. Reducing it by 30 is not enough.
9. Increase SDI cap to 20 (already doing that).
10. Keep the SDI cap for focus spec at 30. With a lower parry chance, parry focus specs will get disrupted more; and with 20 sdi, mystic burst damage will equal that of a 30 sdi focus mage. 25 sdi will not be enough for focus mages to compete with mystics- everyone will stop playing focus mages (eventually). The issue is not parry focus mage damage, it's how hard they are to hit. If we reduce their parry chance marginally, and reduce archer damage marginally, it will balance the playing field for EVERYONE.
not bad i like the spirit speak change
but they still ave 4/6 chiv parry were you need 2 3 player to kill
 

OREOGL

Crazed Zealot
Professional
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Campaign Patron
It's SSI based, and I believe more gives you less damage. I saw a range of 28-35 from @OREOGL, who had 100% DI & 120/120 Anat/Tactics? Correct me if I'm wrong on anything.
Yes all skills were capped to 120 (anat tactics archery)

Low end was around 29 and I hit for 35 maybe once or twice but the average was around 30-31
 

Obsidian

Crazed Zealot
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Supporter
Whoa a lot of posts since last night...

I do want to voice my support for the warriors gift proposed tweak to 5 HCI, 5 DCI and 5 SSI. I think this is fair and benefits warriors of all types without upsetting the balance of max hit points.
 

leet

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
I just want to thank everyone who has come out to TC this week and provided feedback. This has been a long week and I have taken a lot of time to reflect on your feedback.
It is my opinion that ranged Dexers(archers/throwers) out class every template in DPS in this current Meta and that focused mages even with 30 sdi are still not close.
The proposed changes to the ranged weapon damage calculation taking the swing speed of the weapon into account is to help to solve this issue.
My goal is to add more diversity in templates and I feel that the range in DPS must be tweaked in order to open up templates. I also feel that the increase of ranged DPS has pushed templates to rely on parry more for survivability.
I understand that DPS is not the only factor to balance but I view it as an important step forward. Thanks again for your patience during this process.
Good lucky killing someone with a thrower while Armor ignore is there number 1 go to for DPS doing 30 damage Ai's and 8 damage running shots.
 

PaithanTheElf

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Apples don't need to remove forced walk. because Bandages already do...
You don't even need Healing or Anatomy for this to occur... Forced walk is removed when the bandage is done being applied. you do need healing for it to stop the bleed ticks from splintering though. I'm sure it's the "positioning" you're worried about though.
For someone without healing on their temp- it would take 8 seconds to apply a bandage. There could be two force walks in this time. That hardly seems like a good way to mitigate it.
 

Thrakkar

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Huh? Idk what you're saying... So a focus spec parry mage is a "damage-tank-healer," but a bushido parry holy fister isn't? Or an archer?

There already are trade-offs. If you can't recognize them, you need to think a little more about it.

120 skill points of parry or 120 skill points of resist/alchemy/bushido/spellweaving/etc/etc/etc?

That's called a trade-off sir, and it's a pretty big one considering parry only really helps when fighting non mages.
If you don't know, what I'm saying, it would have been probably the best to simply ask and not start interpreting things like they fit your arguments.

What I was saying, is just a general observation which holds true for most players in most MMOs. (Especially in UO, because nowadays most content has to be enjoyable as solo content).
Neither did I talk of specific templates nor of any specific persons. But if you should feel adressed by it, maybe you're the "average player" I was talking about ;)
 
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