NEWS [UO.Com] Mortal Strike Changes Coming to Test Center

[Merus]

How would reducing Parry chance by 50% (35% down to 17.5%) if Parry is used with Wrestling or Anatomy vs swords, fencing, or macing Not balanced?
and parry would no longer require 80 dex.

a Parry mage even if this change happened would still get hit less than they would without parry even if lower D is factored the whole time, and it would be less than 50% chance they'd be hit as well.

I think what you propose is the equivalent of mages saying that a dexxers hit chance should be reduced unless they have parry too. I do not believe that the effect parry has on the overall balance in PvP is OP for dexxers or mages, mostly because it is 100% defensive and has trade-offs that already exist to get the full benefit of the skill. Case and point, there may be parry mages who already have the reduced parry chance because they don't have the dex. I would leave that choice in the hands of the player, not take it away.

Parry is parry, it is a stand alone skill. I don't think it should work differently based on what you pair it with. How players choose between the pros and cons of having parry is part of the game.

 

[CovenantX]

Parry is parry, it is a stand alone skill. I don't think it should work differently based on what you pair it with. How players choose between the pros and cons of having parry is part of the game.

Well adding parry to a the list of skills that remove "focused spec" would be the next best thing... I still think it would be much better to just reduce parry effectiveness with wrestling/anatomy as it's less of a nerf tbh.
Parry isn't 100% defensive since shield-bash & reactive paralyze have been added to it.

Reactive paralyze can be looked at as both offensive & defensive it's situational as it depends on when it procs... again, mages sacrifice nothing for the added benefit of Parry and its perks.

 

[Merus]

Well adding parry to a the list of skills that remove "focused spec" would be the next best thing... I still think it would be much better to just reduce parry effectiveness with wrestling/anatomy as it's less of a nerf tbh.
Parry isn't 100% defensive since shield-bash & reactive paralyze have been added to it.

Reactive paralyze can be looked at as both offensive & defensive it's situational as it depends on when it procs... again, mages sacrifice nothing for the added benefit of Parry and its perks.

If you want to discuss mastery effects or reactive para, those are different discussions than a straight reduction of parry chance.

I don't think parry should be on the list... mages deserve to have some complimentary skills without losing the focused aspect. I would be ok with poisoning and alchemy on the list, but think parry is fine. (edit: for the record, I have all 3 types of templates)

Again, I say the only reason we are even having this conversations is because dexxer suits have become so powerful that parry mage is really the only reliable mage template left when 80+ % (at least in my experience) of pvpers are running the dexxer templates.

 

[ysolt]

It's funny how parry all of a sudden is op,when it has been this way for year's?,even after the dex nerf to it?, ever wonder why there's so many parry mage's now?.

 

[Drowy]

Cause its the most effective template at the moment? Not parry as stand alone is op, but in combination with a focused mage.

 

[OREOGL]

Cause its the most effective template at the moment? Not parry as stand alone is op, but in combination with a focused mage.

Nothing is overpowered about it.

It's the only thing preventing a person from immediately get smoked by dexer templates.

If they try to go with just the 50% from weapon or wrestling, they're going to get smoked.

They'll be hit at least once every 2.5 seconds, regardless of template for at least 45 points of damage.

You add in HLD or disarm a Mage weapon, it's over unless they're quicker than the person running them down. Not likely with running shot.

This doesn't include, bleed, splinter,
Dismount etc.

Sorry guys, no matter how you spin it, there's nothing overpowered about it.

 

[CovenantX]

It's funny how parry all of a sudden is op,when it has been this way for year's?,even after the dex nerf to it?, ever wonder why there's so many parry mage's now?.

Parry has been OP since items have become strong enough to allowed mages to get the dex bonus without sacrificing anything. now you could reach 90 dex with items+ potions by having only 10-15 dex real... Sure stamina for dexers is almost the same, except they get hit, they lose enough stamina to add another 0.25s between each attack.

The main problem is the trade-off for dexers is much worse than it is for mages, if anything it should be the other way around.

Parry Mastery allows a mage (with OR without a weapon) to hit almost as hard as a dexer with high tactics and mid DI + stun, unable to be disarmed, able to chug potions (the biggest game-changer), and still have reactive paralyze chances & max parry chance. if the mage has anatomy, they lose out on the shield-bash... but require 20.0 less skill points.

Why does everyone automatically assume every archer is 210+ stamina?, most of them are still 180. meaning the only thing that has changed between now and when imbuing came out, is the archers have more MI & MR to use specials with.

Dexers are penalized with Parry, either by being required to have bushido, or are required to not chug potions... even if they have bushido they still cannot parry at 35% and chug potions like a mage could with only parry & Anatomy/Wrestling (220.0-240.0)... except they have 120.0 more skill points invested in it (360.0).

Mortal strike is almost required for an archer to beat a parry mage one vs one, due to RNG leaning heavily in favor of the mage being missed 67.5% of the time.
This means there's a 32.5% chance for the parry mage to be hit... Less than 1/3 of weapon swings (very very slightly over 1/3 shots will hit while lower D is in effect).

I think what you propose is the equivalent of mages saying that a dexxers hit chance should be reduced unless they have parry too. I do not believe that the effect parry has on the overall balance in PvP is OP for dexxers or mages, mostly because it is 100% defensive and has trade-offs that already exist to get the full benefit of the skill. Case and point, there may be parry mages who already have the reduced parry chance because they don't have the dex. I would leave that choice in the hands of the player, not take it away.

Dexers (throwers) do have a hit chance & a defense chance penalty as well as not being able to chug potions if they run parry (the penalties are off-set with high parry skill (mostly), but still unable to chug potions. more skill investment = less use for dexers. Mages just have too much offense and defense with parry... Hence why it is imbalanced.

Not at all, Dexers survivability takes a hit by not being able to chug or having a reduced parry rate with even more skill points invested in it... or not being able to parry altogether. while still being susceptible to disarm (dexer vs dexer)

Mages gain 100% of parrys potential just investing skill points into parry + wrestling, essentially without any trade-offs.

 

[OREOGL]

Parry has been OP since items have become strong enough to allowed mages to get the dex bonus without sacrificing anything. now you could reach 90 dex with items+ potions by having only 10-15 dex real... Sure stamina for dexers is almost the same, except they get hit, they lose enough stamina to add another 0.25s between each attack.

The main problem is the trade-off for dexers is much worse than it is for mages, if anything it should be the other way around.

Parry Mastery allows a mage (with OR without a weapon) to hit almost as hard as a dexer with high tactics and mid DI + stun, unable to be disarmed, able to chug potions (the biggest game-changer), and still have reactive paralyze chances & max parry chance. if the mage has anatomy, they lose out on the shield-bash... but require 20.0 less skill points.

Why does everyone automatically assume every archer is 210+ stamina?, most of them are still 180. meaning the only thing that has changed between now and when imbuing came out, is the archers have more MI & MR to use specials with.

Dexers are penalized with Parry, either by being required to have bushido, or are required to not chug potions... even if they have bushido they still cannot parry at 35% and chug potions like a mage could with only parry & Anatomy/Wrestling (220.0-240.0)... except they have 120.0 more skill points invested in it (360.0).

Mortal strike is almost required for an archer to beat a parry mage one vs one, due to RNG leaning heavily in favor of the mage being missed 67.5% of the time.
This means there's a 32.5% chance for the parry mage to be hit... Less than 1/3 of weapon swings (very very slightly over 1/3 shots will hit while lower D is in effect).





Dexers (throwers) do have a hit chance & a defense chance penalty as well as not being able to chug potions if they run parry (the penalties are off-set with high parry skill (mostly), but still unable to chug potions. more skill investment = less use for dexers. Mages just have too much offense and defense with parry... Hence why it is imbalanced.

Not at all, Dexers survivability takes a hit by not being able to chug or having a reduced parry rate with even more skill points invested in it... or not being able to parry altogether. while still being susceptible to disarm (dexer vs dexer)

Mages gain 100% of parrys potential just investing skill points into parry + wrestling, essentially without any trade-offs.

You'te trying to stretch facts around your argument.

There is no merit in arguing suits, because they're available to anyone and all have the opportunity to max stats regardless of template.

You can't say not all dexers are rolling with 210 Stam and then turn around all mages using parry are at 80 dex.

The trade off is always RNG Vs casting speed and doing the simple math will tell you all you need to know.

Really it seems you're taking a dexer vs dexer argument and applying it to a Mage vs dexer argument.
You don't need parry to fight a mage, hence you can chug.

It's not reasonable to try to balance dexer vs Mage if you're accounting for Mage vs dexer vs dexer.

 

[CovenantX]

You'te trying to stretch facts around your argument.

stretching "facts" like Parry is more effective for a mage to have than it is for a dexer? that's just what it is under the current set up, Fact.

Thanks for clearing that up.

for the record, I didn't bring suits into it, you and Merus did, saying that parry is "required" because dexers have gotten higher stamina. well, mages have higher dex and regens now too. that part balances itself, parry is a separate issue. As is mortal strike, but mortal strike is being dealt with.

 

[Merus]

stretching "facts" like Parry is more effective for a mage to have than it is for a dexer? that's just what it is under the current set up, Fact.

Parry is not more effective for a mage than it is for a dexxer. Parry works EXACTLY the same for both. No one stops a swordsman from having wrestle on his template to compensate for dropping a weapon if he wants to chug. You keep arguing that other choices for gear/templates/playstyles warrant nerfing a skill that by itself is not OP for either class.

 

[CovenantX]

Parry is not more effective for a mage than it is for a dexxer. Parry works EXACTLY the same for both. No one stops a swordsman from having wrestle on his template to compensate for dropping a weapon if he wants to chug. You keep arguing that other choices for gear/templates/playstyles warrant nerfing a skill that by itself is not OP for either class.

except dexers are unable to chug with the same block-rate as a mage. Dexers can miss (regardless of parry being factored) and they would be unable to kill anyone with wrestling alone.
So your counter is to add even MORE skills to a dexers template... by going this route it doesn't solve anything...

Parry is more versatile for a Mage than it is for any dexer template. This is what makes it Better for mages than dexers...

There's no option for a dexer to have reactive paralyze & 35% block chance without giving up potions.

Mages can't miss, they heal faster than dexers can. why is parry so much better with wrestling or anatomy than it is for Swords, Fencing or Macing (even throwing) ?
There's not many other ways I can explain why it's better for mages than it is for dexers, and it most definitely should not be. if anything it should be better for dexer-type templates than it is for casters (like chivalry)...

 

[Merus]

except dexers are unable to chug with the same block-rate as a mage. Dexers can miss (regardless of parry being factored) and they would be unable to kill anyone with wrestling alone.
So your counter is to add even MORE skills to a dexers template... by going this route it doesn't solve anything...

Parry is more versatile for a Mage than it is for any dexer template. This is what makes it Better for mages than dexers...

There's no option for a dexer to have reactive paralyze & 35% block chance without giving up potions.

Mages can't miss, they heal faster than dexers can. why is parry so much better with wrestling or anatomy than it is for Swords, Fencing or Macing (even throwing) ?
There's not many other ways I can explain why it's better for mages than it is for dexers, and it most definitely should not be. if anything it should be better for dexer-type templates than it is for casters (like chivalry)...

Again parry isn't better or worse, it's exactly the same.

We could go all day with tit for tat things each template can do that the other cant. For me, the proof is in the pudding... If parry mage were the OP template you say it is, why are there 3 dexxers to every 1 of them?

 

[OREOGL]

stretching "facts" like Parry is more effective for a mage to have than it is for a dexer? that's just what it is under the current set up, Fact.

Thanks for clearing that up.

for the record, I didn't bring suits into it, you and Merus did, saying that parry is "required" because dexers have gotten higher stamina. well, mages have higher dex and regens now too. that part balances itself, parry is a separate issue. As is mortal strike, but mortal strike is being dealt with.

Doesn't matter, you tried using "OP items" as a reason for your argument.

Aside from this, suit is relevant to your argument of being at 180 Stam or 210. Don't try and deflect your argument.

Aside from this, dexer vs mage, you are not using parry on a dexer. So you can chug etc making your entire argument pointless.

You can't balance using anything but one vs one (which I believe you also stated earlier in the thread)

 

[OREOGL]

except dexers are unable to chug with the same block-rate as a mage. Dexers can miss (regardless of parry being factored) and they would be unable to kill anyone with wrestling alone.
So your counter is to add even MORE skills to a dexers template... by going this route it doesn't solve anything...

Parry is more versatile for a Mage than it is for any dexer template. This is what makes it Better for mages than dexers...

There's no option for a dexer to have reactive paralyze & 35% block chance without giving up potions.

Mages can't miss, they heal faster than dexers can. why is parry so much better with wrestling or anatomy than it is for Swords, Fencing or Macing (even throwing) ?
There's not many other ways I can explain why it's better for mages than it is for dexers, and it most definitely should not be. if anything it should be better for dexer-type templates than it is for casters (like chivalry)...

A Mage can't do equivalent damage in 1.25 seconds against any dex template.

If, RNG gives them a run they can do around 100+ points in 2.5 seconds.

A Mages casting time stays flat and is interruptable.

You should probably just give this one up. Parry is probably not going to change, the math speaks for itself.

You can try and affect the math by every single condition or template, but it's situational at best and is no way to balance pvp.

 

[Spock's Beard]

You guys are all really awful at talking about game design. It's all tortured analogies and stupid hypotheticals that everyone involved knows are nonsense.

Do yourselves a favor and talk about how your proposed changes would affect the current metagame and nothing else. Don't try to explain how a given parry change is totally like a completely different change you just made up. Don't put up stupid retorts about how dexers could get wrestling or whatever.

Write something that doesn't just sound like "NERF HIM NOT ME" and that a developer could read and get something useful from without having to be a mind reader. God.

 

[Merus]

You guys are all really awful at talking about game design. It's all tortured analogies and stupid hypotheticals that everyone involved knows are nonsense.

Do yourselves a favor and talk about how your proposed changes would affect the current metagame and nothing else. Don't try to explain how a given parry change is totally like a completely different change you just made up. Don't put up stupid retorts about how dexers could get wrestling or whatever.

Write something that doesn't just sound like "NERF HIM NOT ME" and that a developer could read and get something useful from without having to be a mind reader. God.

So what was it you just added to this thread? If that is your advice to everyone else in this thread, perhaps your own posts should adhere to it??

 

[OREOGL]

You guys are all really awful at talking about game design. It's all tortured analogies and stupid hypotheticals that everyone involved knows are nonsense.

Do yourselves a favor and talk about how your proposed changes would affect the current metagame and nothing else. Don't try to explain how a given parry change is totally like a completely different change you just made up. Don't put up stupid retorts about how dexers could get wrestling or whatever.

Write something that doesn't just sound like "NERF HIM NOT ME" and that a developer could read and get something useful from without having to be a mind reader. God.

There's no hypothetical in the math, which I'm trying to get across.

The argument he was making was hypothetical based on templates, group pvp, and items.

It's like arguing balance to a paper bag.

 

[CovenantX]

There's no hypothetical in the math, which I'm trying to get across.

The argument he was making was hypothetical based on templates, group pvp, and items.

It's like arguing balance to a paper bag.

There is no balance with a parry mage.

the only downfall to a Parry-mage is that they don't have animal form without dropping their SDI cap, but then again, if you have only a 32.5% chance to be hit who needs anymore defense?

The balance should be the same across the board, Dexers give up potions OR block-rate + reactive paralyze (even WITH more skill points invested to help it... *sigh*)

Mages should have to do the same, and they would with the proposed change.

Trade offs for a dexer are plain as day... Where are the trade offs that you speak of for mages?

80 dex? let me show you something...


I wouldn't pay much attention to the other stats of the suit as it's only 2-3 properties on each piece (imbued), the important part is the the dex while cursed.

Where's the trade-off you guys speak of?

 

[Merus]

There is no balance with a parry mage.

the only downfall to a Parry-mage is that they don't have animal form without dropping their SDI cap, but then again, if you have only a 32.5% chance to be hit who needs anymore defense?

The balance should be the same across the board, Dexers give up potions OR block-rate + reactive paralyze (even WITH more skill points invested to help it... *sigh*)

Mages should have to do the same, and they would with the proposed change.

Trade offs for a dexer are plain as day... Where are the trade offs that you speak of for mages?

80 dex? let me show you something...

View attachment 50843
I wouldn't pay much attention to the other stats of the suit as it's only 2-3 properties on each piece (imbued), the important part is the the dex while cursed.

Where's the trade-off you guys speak of?

220-240 skill points and 50+ stat points that really only go for defense is no trade off?

Why wasn't everyone running a parry Mage 5 years ago?? The answer is that there were better options that were still survivable.

Balance this:
A Mage can not use his primary ability (magery) for both offense and defense without holding a Mage Weapon for which he pays a skill penalty which must be compensated for. A dexxer gets to use his primary ability for offense and defense with no skill penalty. BALANCE - DEXXER
Both templates using thier primary ability for defense by holding a weapon are subject to being disarmed. BALANCE - DRAW
Both templates using their primary ability as defense who want the added defense afforded by parry give up the ability to drink potions, but the Mage must sacrifice part of his primary stat to add dex that he would not normally have. BALANCE - DEXXER
Both templates have the option to add additional skill points to maintain their defense in the event that thier primary skill defense is compromised (disarmed). Either can add wrestle, or mages can add anatomy or dexxer can add eval. Both templates gain the ability to chug when not using thier primary skill for defense. BALANCE - DRAW

Scoffing at the idea of having to add skill points to a dexxer template in order to maintain the defensive % and the ability to chug pots is insulting when that is exactly what mages had to do.

 

[CovenantX]

220-240 skill points and 50+ stat points that really only go for defense is no trade off?

Why wasn't everyone running a parry Mage 5 years ago?? The answer is that there were better options that were still survivable.

Balance this:
A Mage can not use his primary ability (magery) for both offense and defense without holding a Mage Weapon for which he pays a skill penalty which must be compensated for. A dexxer gets to use his primary ability for offense and defense with no skill penalty. BALANCE - DEXXER
Both templates using thier primary ability for defense by holding a weapon are subject to being disarmed. BALANCE - DRAW
Both templates using their primary ability as defense who want the added defense afforded by parry give up the ability to drink potions, but the Mage must sacrifice part of his primary stat to add dex that he would not normally have. BALANCE - DEXXER
Both templates have the option to add additional skill points to maintain their defense in the event that thier primary skill defense is compromised (disarmed). Either can add wrestle, or mages can add anatomy or dexxer can add eval. Both templates gain the ability to chug when not using thier primary skill for defense. BALANCE - DRAW

Scoffing at the idea of having to add skill points to a dexxer template in order to maintain the defensive % and the ability to chug pots is insulting when that is exactly what mages had to do.

Dexers take the same amount of skill to block, but are unable to use potions and block like mages can, even if you invest an extra 120 skill in bushido, you still cannot reactive paralyze people and have a hand free. That is not balanced.

Mage weapon is essentially a free 100.0 skill or more (depending on the amount the weapon takes away), They are still subject to being disarmed, unable to benefit from the anti-disarm mastery. Unable to use weapon specials (without sufficient skill in weapon/tactics & They cannot use reactive paralyze (shield) while holding a mage weapon without Giving up Potions.

That's the Balance with mage weapons.

Mages don't need their weapon for offense (nor do they invest skill points into Tactics, if they don't intend on using it for offense), they do much more damage with their spells with Magery & Eval-int, even at 15% SDI... Dexers have two skills to increase weapon damage (3 if you count LJ, but we'll leave that out for argument sake...) they would be Anatomy & Tactics. Anatomy adds damage % to weapons & increases healing effectiveness with bandages... on the Flipside, when Paired with Eval-Int 100.0 or more anatomy + 120 eval-int act like having the defensive portion of Wrestling, without being subject to disarm. No specials = 20.0 less skill points used... this is balanced enough for me

Parry mages weren't as common 5 years ago because it was impossible to get the dex bonus without dropping Str/HP or Int/Mana by a significant amount. Now it's possible to get capped int & str with 80 dex (70+ dexs literally from the suit & potions (without alchemy....).

With the proposed changes:
1) Wrestling OR Anatomy + Parry 120/100 & 120 will have a maximum chance to block of 17.5% & able to use a *Reactive Paralyze item (able to chug potions) the reduced parry chance would be the trade off of being able to freely chug potions without disarming something.

2) Fencing, Macing, Swords, & Throwing, (120/120) would have a maximum of 35% chance to block (unable to chug potions) Regardless if these skills are found on a mage OR a dexer.

3) Dexterity can be 10 or as much as you wish, it wouldn't effect parry chances regardless.


*Reactive Paralyze: is Only possible on Shields or **Two Handed Weapons.
**Two Handed Weapons that are "Balanced" - Cannot Parry at all. *There are also some abilities that prevent Reactive paralyze from being able to proc... (this may be a bug though...)

 

[OREOGL]

There is no balance with a parry mage.

the only downfall to a Parry-mage is that they don't have animal form without dropping their SDI cap, but then again, if you have only a 32.5% chance to be hit who needs anymore defense?

The balance should be the same across the board, Dexers give up potions OR block-rate + reactive paralyze (even WITH more skill points invested to help it... *sigh*)

Mages should have to do the same, and they would with the proposed change.

Trade offs for a dexer are plain as day... Where are the trade offs that you speak of for mages?

80 dex? let me show you something...

View attachment 50843
I wouldn't pay much attention to the other stats of the suit as it's only 2-3 properties on each piece (imbued), the important part is the the dex while cursed.

Where's the trade-off you guys speak of?

Why do you skip posts? Is it because you can't refute or answer them?

Again, blocking is irrelevant to a dexer vs Mage.

Also suits are irrelevant to balance but yes, the other stats are important because if you're imbuing a suit the other mods you don't have affect the weight of the mods you imbued.

Nice try though.

 

[Merus]

Dexers take the same amount of skill to block, but are unable to use potions and block like mages can, even if you invest an extra 120 skill in bushido, you still cannot reactive paralyze people and have a hand free. That is not balanced.

Mage weapon is essentially a free 100.0 skill or more (depending on the amount the weapon takes away), They are still subject to being disarmed, unable to benefit from the anti-disarm mastery. Unable to use weapon specials (without sufficient skill in weapon/tactics & They cannot use reactive paralyze (shield) while holding a mage weapon without Giving up Potions.

That's the Balance with mage weapons.

Mages don't need their weapon for offense (nor do they invest skill points into Tactics, if they don't intend on using it for offense), they do much more damage with their spells with Magery & Eval-int, even at 15% SDI... Dexers have two skills to increase weapon damage (3 if you count LJ, but we'll leave that out for argument sake...) they would be Anatomy & Tactics. Anatomy adds damage % to weapons & increases healing effectiveness with bandages... on the Flipside, when Paired with Eval-Int 100.0 or more anatomy + 120 eval-int act like having the defensive portion of Wrestling, without being subject to disarm. No specials = 20.0 less skill points used... this is balanced enough for me

Parry mages weren't as common 5 years ago because it was impossible to get the dex bonus without dropping Str/HP or Int/Mana by a significant amount. Now it's possible to get capped int & str with 80 dex (70+ dexs literally from the suit & potions (without alchemy....).

With the proposed changes:
1) Wrestling OR Anatomy + Parry 120/100 & 120 will have a maximum chance to block of 17.5% & able to use a *Reactive Paralyze item (able to chug potions) the reduced parry chance would be the trade off of being able to freely chug potions without disarming something.

2) Fencing, Macing, Swords, & Throwing, (120/120) would have a maximum of 35% chance to block (unable to chug potions) Regardless if these skills are found on a mage OR a dexer.

3) Dexterity can be 10 or as much as you wish, it wouldn't effect parry chances regardless.


*Reactive Paralyze: is Only possible on Shields or **Two Handed Weapons.
**Two Handed Weapons that are "Balanced" - Cannot Parry at all. *There are also some abilities that prevent Reactive paralyze from being able to proc... (this may be a bug though...)

So you basically ignored the reality of my post and made up your own. I took you through step by step of the available defense options which you skip over. Let's take another look see:

For purposes of this evaluation, I am going to ignore the offensive side. But IMO dexxers have the offensive advantage.

Mage = 120 magery + 120 eval: 240 skill points
Dexxer = 120 weapon skill + 120 tactics: 240 skill points
240 points for Mage = 240 points for dexxer.
For offense and defense a Mage must compensate with skill on gear to hold the Mage weapon.
For offense and defense a dexxer does not have to compensate.
Both must hold a weapon in thier hand. A Mage weapon is not a free 100+ skill points. While there may be minimal opportunity for the weapon itself to inflict damage, it's primary function serves to allow a Mage to use his primary skill as defense while holding a weapon. Even the very limited capability to use the Mage weapon for damage is offset by the need for skill points on the suit.

Conclusion: Mage and dexxer have balanced requirements when it comes to the 240 points of primary skill for both offense and defense.

Adding parry to the above:

Same skill point requirement
Same slot requirement
Neither can chug pots
Same disarm vulnerability
Same defense chance both armed and disarmed
Mage must give up @ 50 of his primary stat to boost dex. This has gotten a little easier, but it is still a trade-off. My parry Mage runs around 150 mana, whereas my other casters are closer to 200.

Overall balance in the above is pretty close, with the edge going in a dexxers favor. However!! If you apply this to a 1v1 Mage vs dexxer fight it gets worse. 1v1 the dexxer gets to:
1. Only the dexxer can disarm the Mage nullifying a great deal of the mages defense.
2. Drop his shield without any sacrifice to survivability.

Adding wrestle/anat to the mix allows the following trade off:

Cost: Invest 100-120 additional skill points.
Benefit: Cannot lose defense chance by being disarmed and the ability to chug while maintaining defense chance.

I don't see the imbalance, particularly in a 1v1 dexxer vs Mage duel:
1. 360 skill points invested for the dexxer vs 460 points for the Mage (assuming anat)
2. Dexxer can drop the shield at no cost to the duel. This effectively evens the pots as both now have a free hand to chug.
3. Damage output when all specials and gear are factored in comes pretty close to balanced. RNG has a WAY bigger impact on the outcome than any imbalance, at least IMO.

 

[CovenantX]

So you basically ignored the reality of my post and made up your own. I took you through step by step of the available defense options which you skip over. Let's take another look see:

For purposes of this evaluation, I am going to ignore the offensive side. But IMO dexxers have the offensive advantage.

Mage = 120 magery + 120 eval: 240 skill points
Dexxer = 120 weapon skill + 120 tactics: 240 skill points
240 points for Mage = 240 points for dexxer.
For offense and defense a Mage must compensate with skill on gear to hold the Mage weapon.
For offense and defense a dexxer does not have to compensate.
Both must hold a weapon in thier hand. A Mage weapon is not a free 100+ skill points. While there may be minimal opportunity for the weapon itself to inflict damage, it's primary function serves to allow a Mage to use his primary skill as defense while holding a weapon. Even the very limited capability to use the Mage weapon for damage is offset by the need for skill points on the suit.

Conclusion: Mage and dexxer have balanced requirements when it comes to the 240 points of primary skill for both offense and defense.

I agree with that.... because it's true. parry isn't factored though. as that's where the dexers trade-offs start mages pretty much 100% benefit begins.

Adding parry to the above:

Same skill point requirement
Same slot requirement
Neither can chug pots
Same disarm vulnerability
Same defense chance both armed and disarmed
Mage must give up @ 50 of his primary stat to boost dex. This has gotten a little easier, but it is still a trade-off. My parry Mage runs around 150 mana, whereas my other casters are closer to 200.

Overall balance in the above is pretty close, with the edge going in a dexxers favor. However!! If you apply this to a 1v1 Mage vs dexxer fight it gets worse. 1v1 the dexxer gets to:
1. Only the dexxer can disarm the Mage nullifying a great deal of the mages defense.
2. Drop his shield without any sacrifice to survivability.

Adding wrestle/anat to the mix allows the following trade off:

Cost: Invest 100-120 additional skill points.
Benefit: Cannot lose defense chance by being disarmed and the ability to chug while maintaining defense chance.

How is the dexer going to heal themselves? Potions only? because Mages have that option too, in addition to magery, in less skill points

50 stat points for the dex to parry at max rate. Sure, Ok, Do you expect dexers to just stick with 50 or lower mana?
I mean, surely a parry-mage wouldn't die to auto-attacks,Hell a non-parry mage could beat that more than 50% of the time.
Now what?

I don't see the imbalance, particularly in a 1v1 dexxer vs Mage duel:
1. 360 skill points invested for the dexxer vs 460 points for the Mage (assuming anat)
2. Dexxer can drop the shield at no cost to the duel. This effectively evens the pots as both now have a free hand to chug.
3. Damage output when all specials and gear are factored in comes pretty close to balanced. RNG has a WAY bigger impact on the outcome than any imbalance, at least IMO.

#1. a dexer always require more skill than mages (skill points) not so much player skill. No way to heal, mages have it all in less skill investment. (I've said this already...)

#2 is correct, except parry can help against mages in duels especially if reactive paralyze is possible, you seem to ignore that. It's not going to be as effective as it would in a dexer vs dexer fight. but it could absolutely make a difference. it's even good in mage-vs-mage duels if you can see it to take advantage of it.

#3. Sure, and RNG is the biggest factor with dexers damage which is balanced in a dexer vs dexer fight.
Except adding RNG on something that's mostly based on player skill (magery) makes mages much better all around than dexers.


...Did I skip anything this time?

I do have to add- Remove Casting Focus & Poison Immunity, the two absolute worst additions to pvp.

 

[CovenantX]

Why do you skip posts? Is it because you can't refute or answer them?

Again, blocking is irrelevant to a dexer vs Mage.

Also suits are irrelevant to balance but yes, the other stats are important because if you're imbuing a suit the other mods you don't have affect the weight of the mods you imbued.

Nice try though.

Blocking is not irrelevant to a "Dexer" vs a mage (the dexer being the one blocking).

I've answered everything that's been asked of me. Where are your posts you say I skip?

It's all defensive posts from you about why parry with wrestling or anatomy isn't OP, there's nothing to back it up.

Why do you keep saying parry isn't OP because "it's Required" ? You're a funny guy.

Hey, that's like saying "Animal form for dexers isn't OP, it's Required".... where are the real arguments & solutions?

 

[Merus]

I agree with that.... because it's true. parry isn't factored though. as that's where the dexers trade-offs start mages pretty much 100% benefit begins.





How is the dexer going to heal themselves? Potions only? because Mages have that option too, in addition to magery, in less skill points

50 stat points for the dex to parry at max rate. Sure, Ok, Do you expect dexers to just stick with 50 or lower mana?
I mean, surely a parry-mage wouldn't die to auto-attacks,Hell a non-parry mage could beat that more than 50% of the time.
Now what?





#1. a dexer always requires more skill than mages (skill points) not so much player skill. No way to heal, mages have it all in less skill investment. (I've said this already...)

#2 is correct, except parry can help against mages in duels especially if reactive paralyze is possible, you seem to ignore that. It's not going to be as effective as it would in a dexer vs dexer fight. but it could absolutely make a difference. it's even good in mage-vs-mage duels if you can see it to take advantage of it.

#3. Sure, and RNG is the biggest factor with dexers damage which is balanced in a dexer vs dexer fight.
Except adding RNG on something that's mostly based on player skill (magery) makes mages much better all around than dexers.


...Did I skip anything this time?

I do have to add- Remove Casting Focus & Poison Immunity, the two absolute worst additions to pvp.

1. I didn't fill in the rest of the templates for either class. I know of many dexxer templates that do not have healing. This was simply a comparison of skill points for primary offense and defense chance adding in wrestle and parry since that what this discussion centers around. As far as healing itself goes, it has a trade off too... mages can't attack and heal at the same time, whereas a dexxer can. Overall... 1 greater heal and 1 attack spell with good defense chance (about 4 seconds without getting interupted) is about the same as a dexxer landing 1 blow and getting 1 bandage off in 4 seconds.
2. A dexxer can get as much mana as he can fit on his suit. The point is that he does not have to add extra dex to his template that he would not normally have. I don't know any pvp dexxer template that runs less than 80 dex. With today's suits, most mages end up with about 30-40 dex simply because of the 150 int cap. But parry mages have to push an extra 50 points into dex which in most cases negates the intel slot on the armor.
3. Parry in duels is largely irrelevant between same class templates as far as this discussion is concerned. Your proposed change is only a reduction of parry chance if you have wrestle, which is realistically only on a mage. If 2 mages fight, they would both be subject to the same rule set and both have access to the same "advantage" of being able to chug and hold a weapon. The same goes for 2 dexxers fighting. The only real place your proposed change has any significant bearing is fights between dexxers and mages.
4. Suit effects, IMO, are a completely different issue (reactive para). I could rant for days about the effect suits have for both mages and dexxers. If you don't like the % chance on reactive para, then you should argue to adjust its %... not reduce the chance to parry.
5. Defense chance has always been RNG for both mages and dexxers regardless of how it is acquired.

 

[CovenantX]

As far as healing itself goes, it has a trade off too... mages can't attack and heal at the same time, whereas a dexxer can. Overall... 1 greater heal and 1 attack spell with good defense chance (about 4 seconds without getting interupted) is about the same as a dexxer landing 1 blow and getting 1 bandage off in 4 seconds.
2. A dexxer can get as much mana as he can fit on his suit. The point is that he does not have to add extra dex to his template that he would not normally have. I don't know any pvp dexxer template that runs less than 80 dex. With today's suits, most mages end up with about 30-40 dex simply because of the 150 int cap. But parry mages have to push an extra 50 points into dex which in most cases negates the intel slot on the armor.
3. Parry in duels is largely irrelevant between same class templates as far as this discussion is concerned. Your proposed change is only a reduction of parry chance if you have wrestle, which is realistically only on a mage. If 2 mages fight, they would both be subject to the same rule set and both have access to the same "advantage" of being able to chug and hold a weapon. The same goes for 2 dexxers fighting. The only real place your proposed change has any significant bearing is fights between dexxers and mages.
4. Suit effects, IMO, are a completely different issue (reactive para). I could rant for days about the effect suits have for both mages and dexxers. If you don't like the % chance on reactive para, then you should argue to adjust its %... not reduce the chance to parry.
5. Defense chance has always been RNG for both mages and dexxers regardless of how it is acquired.

a Parry Mage with wrestling/Anatomy CAN heal & do damage at the same time, because of their ability to chug potions, without sacrificing ANY Defense.

2. the same goes for mages, except mages can stop at 80 dex, Where as dexers could, but it still benefits them to have more than 80 mana vs a mages dex.

3. yes, it's balanced between mages vs mages & dexers vs dexers.. the imbalance is betwen a mage vs a dexer which is why the proposed change Only Effects Mage-Templates...

4. Reactive Paralyze- will be on a mages gear, because Potions are too much of a sacrifice for a dexer to give up for it. hence why reactive paralyze itself doesn't need to be adjusted.
It's going to proc more for mages because they don't give anything up for having it.

5. What does this tell us?

Now, explain why the proposed change would be worse than it is under the current rules? It damn sure looks a lot more balanced to me with the changes applied than it currently is.

I could be missing something... but normally I'd catch it before responding this many times.

 

[OREOGL]

Blocking is not irrelevant to a "Dexer" vs a mage (the dexer being the one blocking).

I've answered everything that's been asked of me. Where are your posts you say I skip?

It's all defensive posts from you about why parry with wrestling or anatomy isn't OP, there's nothing to back it up.

Why do you keep saying parry isn't OP because "it's Required" ? You're a funny guy.

Hey, that's like saying "Animal form for dexers isn't OP, it's Required".... where are the real arguments & solutions?

You answered one line on 108, skipped 113 and 114 and refuted 117 with your imbued suit you tried using as an example of suits that you said you weren't using as part of yours argument since "Merus and I" brought it into the argument...

That was a joke since you didn't include imbuing weight.


Your refutal now is "blocking isn't irrelevant vs a parry Mage" which makes you:

A) wrong, because spell damage is 100% success rate with a successful cast.
OR
B) including a weapon and parry which means they can't chug either which had been 90% of your argument.


Though I'm not sure which because you didn't provide any evidence to back it, just an empty refutal.

 

[CovenantX]

You answered one line on 108, skipped 113 and 114 and refuted 117 with your imbued suit you tried using as an example of suits that you said you weren't using as part of yours argument since "Merus and I" brought it into the argument...

That was a joke since you didn't include imbuing weight.

Besides, The reason I even mentioned it was "Imbued" was because it's doable without using high-end loot.

Ok, it was a partial suit (I did mention that) because I didn't feel like going through all my loot to piece together a suit for a demonstration. the only properties that assisted with this was +4 dex on each armor piece and 50 EP on my jewelry. LRC so I could get a curse off. in addition to some artifacts: boots of escaping, despicable quiver & a CC (all for dex bonus) 10 dex real, what was it 91 dex total so +81 from items & Potions only.

Your refutal now is "blocking isn't irrelevant vs a parry Mage" which makes you:

A) wrong, because spell damage is 100% success rate with a successful cast.
OR
B) including a weapon and parry which means they can't chug either which had been 90% of your argument.


Though I'm not sure which because you didn't provide any evidence to back it, just an empty refutal.

You must not know you can parry anything with wrestling OR a weapon. (it's right.) Edited: to add, if you interrupt a mage at close enough range for their weapon (or wrestling) to swing at you, you have a chance to proc reactive paralyze (mage vs mage) dexers always run the risk of bing paralyzed just by attacking most parry mages.

Also before you mention trap boxes, most dexers don't trap-box out of reactive paralyze, because they use a Script to do it in the first place, there's no warning message saying you're paralyzed when RP procs, thus it ALWAYS adds more swing delay giving the mage more time to do whatever is needed. Trap boxes are a separate issue.

B) if anyone regardless of a template uses a Weapon & a shield Cannot chug without disarming. True. Wrestling & Anatomy + Parry can without dropping parry chance like everything else, while everything else is ALSO subject to disarm, how hard is this to understand?

I'd like to see something other than a troll attempt. because I haven't seen anything that suggests the proposed change is bad. <--- This is the only thing I want to know, I really don't care about anything else as far as this conversation is concerned, Enlighten Me.

.

 

[OREOGL]

Besides, The reason I even mentioned it was "Imbued" was because it's doable without using high-end loot.

Ok, it was a partial suit (I did mention that) because I didn't feel like going through all my loot to piece together a suit for a demonstration. the only properties that assisted with this was +4 dex on each armor piece and 50 EP on my jewelry. LRC so I could get a curse off. in addition to some artifacts: boots of escaping, despicable quiver & a CC (all for dex bonus) 10 dex real, what was it 91 dex total so +81 from items & Potions only.



You must not know you can parry anything with wrestling OR a weapon. (it's right.) Edited: to add, if you interrupt a mage at close enough range for their weapon (or wrestling) to swing at you, you have a chance to proc reactive paralyze (mage vs mage) dexers always run the risk of bing paralyzed just by attacking most parry mages.

Also before you mention trap boxes, most dexers don't trap-box out of reactive paralyze, because they use a Script to do it in the first place, there's no warning message saying you're paralyzed when RP procs, thus it ALWAYS adds more swing delay giving the mage more time to do whatever is needed. Trap boxes are a separate issue.

B) if anyone regardless of a template uses a Weapon & a shield Cannot chug without disarming. True. Wrestling & Anatomy + Parry can without dropping parry chance like everything else, while everything else is ALSO subject to disarm, how hard is this to understand?

I'd like to see something other than a troll attempt. because I haven't seen anything that suggests the proposed change is bad. <--- This is the only thing I want to know, I really don't care about anything else as far as this conversation is concerned, Enlighten Me.

.

So blocking matters to a dexer vs a Mage because of a Mage using wrestling?

No, mages use wrestling for defense no offense.


I don't think you can even get your own argument straight.

 

[CovenantX]

So blocking matters to a dexer vs a Mage because of a Mage using wrestling?

No, mages use wrestling for defense no offense.


I don't think you can even get your own argument straight.

... Parry can be used against wrestling. Thus reactive paralyze is useful against ANYTHING you fight regardless of which template you parry with.

I don't see why the change would be bad?

I never said "Wrestling" was used for offense, but stun punch & disarm & *Shield bash- are options that are useful Both ways anyway, so that proves you're wrong about it not being offensive.

 

[OREOGL]

... Parry can be used against wrestling. Thus reactive paralyze is useful against ANYTHING you fight regardless of which template you parry with.

I don't see why the change would be bad?

I never said "Wrestling" was used for offense, but stun punch & disarm & *Shield bash- are options that are useful Both ways anyway, so that proves you're wrong about it not being offensive.

So your whole argument now is based on reactive paralyze?
(Let alone your argument now bases
It on the dexer having it).

So since clearly both templates have the option to use reactive paralyze I think I've seen all that I need to see here.

 

[CovenantX]

So your whole argument now is based on reactive paralyze?
(Let alone your argument now bases
It on the dexer having it).

So since clearly both templates have the option to use reactive paralyze I think I've seen all that I need to see here.

It's based on versatility and the ability to chug potions. vs trade offs every other template deals with. refute my proposal please, if you have nothing to counter it .

Edit: I didn't mention "dexer" in the quoted post btw, because it's not limited to a dexer being reactively paralyzed.

 

[OREOGL]

It's based on versatility and the ability to chug potions. vs trade offs every other template deals with. refute my proposal please, if you have nothing to counter it .

We've already been through all your arguments. To which I clearly refuted the blocking, the suits (which doesn't matter because you don't use suits to balance pvp), the chugging, which narrowed your entire argument down to reactive paralyze.

There's nothing left to be hashed out here.

 

[OREOGL]

It's based on versatility and the ability to chug potions. vs trade offs every other template deals with. refute my proposal please, if you have nothing to counter it .

Edit: I didn't mention "dexer" in the quoted post btw, because it's not limited to a dexer being reactively paralyzed.

To address your edit, if you follow the flow of this debate you were referring to the dexer blocking vs a Mage.

So yeah, you didn't mention it but I'm pretty sure you're just repeating back to me what I already told you.

 

[Merus]

a Parry Mage with wrestling/Anatomy CAN heal & do damage at the same time, because of their ability to chug potions, without sacrificing ANY Defense.

2. the same goes for mages, except mages can stop at 80 dex, Where as dexers could, but it still benefits them to have more than 80 mana vs a mages dex.

3. yes, it's balanced between mages vs mages & dexers vs dexers.. the imbalance is betwen a mage vs a dexer which is why the proposed change Only Effects Mage-Templates...

4. Reactive Paralyze- will be on a mages gear, because Potions are too much of a sacrifice for a dexer to give up for it. hence why reactive paralyze itself doesn't need to be adjusted.
It's going to proc more for mages because they don't give anything up for having it.

5. What does this tell us?

Now, explain why the proposed change would be worse than it is under the current rules? It damn sure looks a lot more balanced to me with the changes applied than it currently is.

I could be missing something... but normally I'd catch it before responding this many times.

Now it seems you are just going in circles...

1. The only way a parry mage gets to to chug and maintain their defense chance is the addition of wrestle/anatomy... THAT is the trade off... +100/120 skill over the primary skill for the ability to chug.

2. Parry mages are required to have 80+ stat points into a stat that a normal mage would not. Parry mages give up 50ish points of mana over other mage skills that would not require those stats. THAT is a trade off in order to have the full benefit of skills they have already put points in.
---A dexxer who wants to use parry vs a dexxer who does not makes any change to their stats. There is NO trade off in stat points for a dexxer using parry or not.

3. Isn't the WHOLE point of the discussion? Stop making arguments that mage vs mage (or dexxer vs dexxer) that parry causes some imbalance (see comments about reactive para triggering off a wrestling blow, etc). I do not agree with the premise that parry creates an imbalance in mage vs dexxer for all the reasons previously pointed out by me and others.

4. Again, reactive para and overall chance to block are totally different issues. Its like arguing that 50% hit lighting on a bow is too much, so we should lower a dexxers chance to hit. Apples and Oranges.

Except adding RNG on something that's mostly based on player skill (magery) makes mages much better all around than dexers.

5. We aren't adding RNG to something... it has always been RNG.

 

[Merus]

I haven't seen anything that suggests the proposed change is bad. <--- This is the only thing I want to know, I really don't care about anything else as far as this conversation is concerned, Enlighten Me.

The change is bad because parry is just about the only thing left that keeps mages in pvp. Mage's have added parry to their templates because virtually every other option available just can't cut it in today's pvp.

Mages still using a mage weapon for defense are almost always one of the first targets, and quite honestly either run or die.
The combo is virtually certain:

Disarm
Dismount
Mortal or DP
Running Shot or Deathstrike

Wrestling helps, but with all the 211 stam archers, as well as all the other specials and effects from todays suits, 50/50 or less with HLD, just isn't enough of a chance to block for a mage. I loved playing my necro mage... but in today's pvp he just gets high far to often with attacks that do 50+ damage. Love it or hate it, that is the reality for mages today.

Nerfing the last line of defense for the mage class in pvp, IMO, is a horrible idea... unless of course you just want dexxer vs dexxer fights for the future of UO.

 

[OREOGL]

Now it seems you are just going in circles...

1. The only way a parry mage gets to to chug and maintain their defense chance is the addition of wrestle/anatomy... THAT is the trade off... +100/120 skill over the primary skill for the ability to chug.

2. Parry mages are required to have 80+ stat points into a stat that a normal mage would not. Parry mages give up 50ish points of mana over other mage skills that would not require those stats. THAT is a trade off in order to have the full benefit of skills they have already put points in.
---A dexxer who wants to use parry vs a dexxer who does not makes any change to their stats. There is NO trade off in stat points for a dexxer using parry or not.

3. Isn't the WHOLE point of the discussion? Stop making arguments that mage vs mage (or dexxer vs dexxer) that parry causes some imbalance (see comments about reactive para triggering off a wrestling blow, etc). I do not agree with the premise that parry creates an imbalance in mage vs dexxer for all the reasons previously pointed out by me and others.

4. Again, reactive para and overall chance to block are totally different issues. Its like arguing that 50% hit lighting on a bow is too much, so we should lower a dexxers chance to hit. Apples and Oranges.

5. We aren't adding RNG to something... it has always been RNG.

Dude, I wouldn't bother anymore. He doesn't have any logic behind his argument, the guy just wants to argue.

 

[CovenantX]

Now it seems you are just going in circles...

1. The only way a parry mage gets to to chug and maintain their defense chance is the addition of wrestle/anatomy... THAT is the trade off... +100/120 skill over the primary skill for the ability to chug.

2. Parry mages are required to have 80+ stat points into a stat that a normal mage would not. Parry mages give up 50ish points of mana over other mage skills that would not require those stats. THAT is a trade off in order to have the full benefit of skills they have already put points in.
---A dexxer who wants to use parry vs a dexxer who does not makes any change to their stats. There is NO trade off in stat points for a dexxer using parry or not.

3. Isn't the WHOLE point of the discussion? Stop making arguments that mage vs mage (or dexxer vs dexxer) that parry causes some imbalance (see comments about reactive para triggering off a wrestling blow, etc). I do not agree with the premise that parry creates an imbalance in mage vs dexxer for all the reasons previously pointed out by me and others.

4. Again, reactive para and overall chance to block are totally different issues. Its like arguing that 50% hit lighting on a bow is too much, so we should lower a dexxers chance to hit. Apples and Oranges.

5. We aren't adding RNG to something... it has always been RNG.

Parry is balanced between Dexers vs dexers & Mages vs mages. It's NOT Balanced between Mages & Dexers. This is the entire point of the proposed change - Balance it.


Whereas a Mage doesn't need to change a damn thing regardless of what they're fighting. gaining the full benefit of three bonuses at the same time. Hence Parry reduction with Wrestling/Anatomy. it balances it out.

The trade off is having Wrestling or Anatomy (less skill points, to be the same or more Effective Is OverPowered) instead of a weapon skill that is next to useless without tactics. We know that already.

If you have a Weapon skill in-place of wrestling you get what? to choose between PARRY and POTIONS also being subject to Disarm. Mages would use a mage-weapon instead of a weapon skill in every situation with parry, they'd have the same benefits & disadvantages as a dexer. That's. in which case they would have the choice between parry OR potions still.


The trade offs for Dexers are: Reactive Paralyze, Parry Rate, & Potions (it will always be at least 2 of the 3)... Right now, mages have all three benefits at all times and no reduction in parry-rate.. Why? Explain how this is balanced. Giving up weapon damag without tactics? *points back to mage-weapon comment*.

#4. Reactive Paralyze is part of the conversation because Parry is the ONLY thing that make's it a factor. It cannot proc, unless you Parry.

#5. Adding Parry to a mage is increasing the Mages "RNG" chance to survive (this is fine, that's what it's intended to do) except the amount the mage gets vs what every other template that has parry sacrifices, it's far from balanced.

Which is why there should be a reduced Parry Rate for people with Wrestling or Anatomy & Parry.

We've already been through all your arguments. To which I clearly refuted the blocking, the suits (which doesn't matter because you don't use suits to balance pvp), the chugging, which narrowed your entire argument down to reactive paralyze.

There's nothing left to be hashed out here.

It's 15% Parry Rate & Reactive Paralyze OR Potions & Reactive Paralyze while also being vulnerable to disarm both ways.
Adding 120.0 skill points gives you the same parry rate a mage would have. without reactive paralyze if you want a hand free.
Vs
Not being vulnerable to disarm, always able to chug potions, & always having maximum parry chance which also gives maximum chance to proc reactive paralyzes.

Point out how that's balanced.

 

[Merus]

Dude, I wouldn't bother anymore. He doesn't have any logic behind his argument, the guy just wants to argue.

I believe you are right.

 

[King Greg]

So blocking matters to a dexer vs a Mage because of a Mage using wrestling?

No, mages use wrestling for defense no offense.

Shield bash, Disarm, Para blow, *Cough*

Its Straight forward Guys

120 Parry + Anatomy/Wrestling = Reactive Paralyze + 35% Block Chance + Pots + Shield Bash

120 Parry + Weapon + Shield = reactive Paralyze + 35% Block Chance, NO POTS + Shield Bash

120 Parry + Weapon - Shield = No reactive Paralyze 17.5% Block Chance, + POTS, No Shield Bash

120 Parry + Weapon - Shield + 120 Bushido = No reactive Paralyze, 35% Block Chance + Pots, No Shield Bash


Wrestling/anatomy + Shield Gives EVERYTHING. EVERY other combination results in Loss. So no, it is not balanced when compared to every other option.

CovenantX is Suggesting Mages have to Sacrifice ONE THING. To make it balanced.

 

[Merus]

Shield bash, Disarm, Para blow, *Cough*

Its Straight forward Guys

120 Parry + Anatomy/Wrestling = Reactive Paralyze + 35% Block Chance + Pots + Shield Bash

120 Parry + Weapon + Shield = reactive Paralyze + 35% Block Chance, NO POTS + Shield Bash

120 Parry + Weapon - Shield = No reactive Paralyze 17.5% Block Chance, + POTS, No Shield Bash

120 Parry + Weapon - Shield + 120 Bushido = No reactive Paralyze, 35% Block Chance + Pots, No Shield Bash


Wrestling/anatomy + Shield Gives EVERYTHING. EVERY other combination results in Loss. So no, it is not balanced when compared to every other option.

CovenantX is Suggesting Mages have to Sacrifice ONE THING. To make it balanced.

120 Parry + Anatomy/Wrestling + Magery = Reactive Paralyze + 35% Block Chance + Pots + Shield Bash = 360 skill points

120 Parry + Weapon + Shield = reactive Paralyze + 35% Block Chance, NO POTS + Shield Bash = 240 skill points

120 skill points + 50 Stat points just to drink pots... Seems balanced enough to me.

 

[CovenantX]

the guy just wants to argue.

I believe you are right.

Because I know I'm right.

17.5% parry rate (with my proposed change) Even going down to 20% parry rate would be better than leaving the way it currently is.

If you want 35% chance to parry, you still have the option to but you would sacrifice potions to achieve that.... like everyone else.

 

[OREOGL]

Shield bash, Disarm, Para blow, *Cough*

Its Straight forward Guys

120 Parry + Anatomy/Wrestling = Reactive Paralyze + 35% Block Chance + Pots + Shield Bash

120 Parry + Weapon + Shield = reactive Paralyze + 35% Block Chance, NO POTS + Shield Bash

120 Parry + Weapon - Shield = No reactive Paralyze 17.5% Block Chance, + POTS, No Shield Bash

120 Parry + Weapon - Shield + 120 Bushido = No reactive Paralyze, 35% Block Chance + Pots, No Shield Bash


Wrestling/anatomy + Shield Gives EVERYTHING. EVERY other combination results in Loss. So no, it is not balanced when compared to every other option.

CovenantX is Suggesting Mages have to Sacrifice ONE THING. To make it balanced.

Shield bash is a mastery. This is equivalent to saying other masteries should be nerfed.

Stun and disarm with wrestling are defensive. You cant disarm someone to death.

Again, balance is in damage output.

If someone wants to eat an extra 120 points just to chug that's on them.

A dexer vs a Mage doesn't need to eat those points to chug because blocking is irrelevant.

 

[OREOGL]

Because I know I'm right.

17.5% parry rate (with my proposed change) Even going down to 20% parry rate would be better than leaving the way it currently is.

If you want 35% chance to parry, you still have the option to but you would sacrifice potions to achieve that.... like everyone else.

Id rather beat my head into a wall than repeat this whole thread with you.

Frankly, I'm surprised they haven't locked it for going so far off course.

 

[King Greg]

Shield bash is a mastery. This is equivalent to saying other masteries should be nerfed.

We were comparing the benefits of Parry with Wrestling/Anatomy vs every other scenario. I would definitely count shield bash as a benefit.

Id rather beat my head into a wall than repeat this whole thread with you.

Don't have to repeat the whole thread to me

Covenants point is that Parrying does more for mage classes than any other class. Which is true, can't even be argued against.
He also gave a suggestion for what they could sacrifice to make parrying's benefits more balanced like it is for every other class. Being half parry chance when used without a weapon, which still gives it reactive paralyze over a weapon user without a shield.

Your point is that Mages NEED Parrying as it is in order to compete with dexxers, which is an opinion. I Know plenty of mages who don't run parrying. It is Favored though, but it would still be good even at half strength. You were using parry on your Fencer Mage even without a shield. (Half Parry Chance). So must be still worth something

 

[OREOGL]

We were comparing the benefits of Parry with Wrestling/Anatomy vs every other scenario. I would definitely count shield bash as a benefit.



Don't have to repeat the whole thread to me

Covenants point is that Parrying does more for mage classes than any other class. Which is true, can't even be argued against.
He also gave a suggestion for what they could sacrifice to make parrying's benefits more balanced like it is for every other class. Being half parry chance when used without a weapon, which still gives it reactive paralyze over a weapon user without a shield.

Your point is that Mages NEED Parrying as it is in order to compete with dexxers, which is an opinion. I Know plenty of mages who don't run parrying. It is Favored though, but it would still be good even at half strength. You were using parry on your Fencer Mage even without a shield. (Half Parry Chance). So must be still worth something

No, you were comparing it as a benefit, my argument is based on math based balance.

Items properties and masteries aren't calculated in balance because they're a wash and template specific.

Based on that math using parry offsets a dexers damage pretty comparatively with that of Mage.

As far as me running parry without a shield is ridiculous. You may have me confused with someone else.

 

[Logrus]

Unless the code has changed (and I haven't seen any patch notes to that effect) then to throw a wrench into the works regarding the following from memory.

Resonance and Casting Focus are ignored for damage exceeding 29. So armor ignore for 35 would be a guaranteed interruption even if you had 100% casting focus.

 

[CovenantX]

Unless the code has changed (and I haven't seen any patch notes to that effect) then to throw a wrench into the works regarding the following from memory.

Resonance and Casting Focus are ignored for damage exceeding 29. So armor ignore for 35 would be a guaranteed interruption even if you had 100% casting focus.

Good to know, I don't remember seeing anything that said this in patch notes.

I still think Casting focus should be removed though- at least from pvp. Mages don't need the help of RNG in pvp.

Though, I can see casting focus being used to balance out pvm between mages & dexers, it would need to be able to reach 100% effectiveness for that though, 12-17% wouldn't be enough to fix it. (I posted this before)

 

[King Greg]

Ah I misunderstood you then at one point when you were talking about your mage weapon parry mage hybrid. I missed the part where you said You don't bother chugging....

I play solo so often die to groups.
If I wanted to poison I wouldn't use the kryss, I'd add poisoning for magery.

Plus I have 120 parry so I don't bother to chug, also in part because it's built for solo PVP in VVV.

I tested anatomy on test and the additional damage was minimal especially since ai is already capped.

I used the Mage weapon for the additionAl blocking chance.

all of the mods are capped except for a few hci.

Either way the template works pretty well but when I built it was factoring in that PVP was mostly against dexers at the time.

If that's still what you are playing then Covenant's Changes don't even effect you.

 

[CovenantX]

Ah I misunderstood you then at one point when you were talking about your mage weapon parry mage hybrid. I missed the part where you said You don't bother chugging....



If that's still what you are playing then Covenant's Changes don't even effect you.

it would effect his template if he uses a "mage-weapon" it would effect my parry-mage template as well, because that's how I run it.

the only way it wouldn't effect him, is if he used a spell-channeling weapon and had the required weapon skill.

The balance to the mage-weapon is that it's disarm-able and has a - magery effect with it. Also you're unable to use weapon specials.

It would only effect people who have parry + wrestling & Anatomy, or no weapon skill (because mage weapons don't count, they come with their own trade-offs, which also allows a mage template to have up to 120.0 additional points to add to whatever they wish.