Why don't they just make 2d in hi-res?

[Dermott of LS]

...

Yes, it was in KR, and yes that was one of the main complaints about the pet dye idea.

No problem with being pushy, you had a good idea to throw into the mix IMO.

 

[Cirno]

...

Yes, it was in KR, and yes that was one of the main complaints about the pet dye idea.

No problem with being pushy, you had a good idea to throw into the mix IMO.

It's a stretch, and an imposition, but do you happen to have a screenshot that shows it?
It would serve my curiosity, and may serve as a visual cue to the developers of what could be possible if they turned the Enhanced Client into more of a throwback to its heritage

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I'll have to dig and see what I've got, I do a little with plants but not a whole lot, so I may not have any shots saved.

 

[Cirno]

...

I'll have to dig and see what I've got, I do a little with plants but not a whole lot, so I may not have any shots saved.

I was only ever really good at putting off caring for my plants, so the lack of any plants that lived long enough to not be bowls is probably the reason I didn't see any in KR

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I didn't find any yet that I have, but head over to the EC forum and make a request there and see what people can find... most of the EC forum people played KR as well.

 

[Cirno]

It is done.
Thank you for looking

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I always enjoy looking through my old UO screencaps, although sometimes it does tend to be a bit bittersweet knowing that those eras of the game have passed.

I guess we all have our favorite eras for one reason or another.

 

[Cirno]

I don't think I have the same feelings as you do for the KR art, but I can agree with you.
The artwork is as much a part of the game experience as anything else, and anything that positively affected your enjoyment of the game should be remembered fondly.

 

[G.v.P]

Sorry to Necro this back up, I did in fact ask Petra if it was okay first

anywho,

I think this thread is right on target for what we have been talking about lately

Wow. Old thread, lol.

 

[Derium of ls]

Wow. Old thread, lol.

aye, but soooo many posts about graphics lately ect. someone linked to this and I decided to necro it up

 

[G.v.P]

aye, but soooo many posts about graphics lately ect. someone linked to this and I decided to necro it up

Necro, you say? Death Knight approves.

 

[Violence]

Re:

LOL!!! But really, I do agree that was the most promising attempt at making something new. It had potential. Someone recently posted a clip showing yet another UO2 attempt I had never seen before- Not UXO, not UO:2.. Can't remember what it was titled. Those who've watched that MUST be wondering why it didn't fly..

 

[olduofan]

Re:

I think this was asked before but why cant the devs allow players like Saphireena and others to clean-up the graphics and use them in game ?

 

[Derium of ls]

Re:

I think this was asked before but why cant the devs allow players like Saphireena and others to clean-up the graphics and use them in game ?

I agree, I think if that project was handed over it would have been done many years ago

 

[canary]

Re:

I think this was asked before but why cant the devs allow players like Saphireena and others to clean-up the graphics and use them in game ?

Who isn to say they have or have not at one time?

Basically, its a service. And most services, even art clean up, are not free.

 

[olduofan]

Re:

I think this was asked before but why cant the devs allow players like Saphireena and others to clean-up the graphics and use them in game ?

Who isn to say they have or have not at one time?

Basically, its a service. And most services, even art clean up, are not free.

I would be willing to bet a few if not a lot of people would volunteer to do it for free because of there love of the game and not wanting to see the plug pulled some day soon

 

[olduofan]

Re:

I also would like to know why they don't make the play window bigger I remember reading that the game objects wouldn't get bigger but we could see a little more of the game world by a few tiles in at least one direction. I feel that would be a huge improvement it would be nice if we could zoom in and out as well

 

[canary]

Re:

I also would like to know why they don't make the play window bigger I remember reading that the game objects wouldn't get bigger but we could see a little more of the game world by a few tiles in at least one direction. I feel that would be a huge improvement it would be nice if we could zoom in and out as well

It is possible to have the play window larger, it simply isn't something the team wants to implement.

 

[Derium of ls]

Re:

It is possible to have the play window larger, it simply isn't something the team wants to implement.

there is an illegal 3rd party program that you can max the window size out with too. It has some glitches but it works

er wait, how would I know that? *whistles*

wait, is it illegal? hrrm, how do I find that out?

EDIT: my current game window size is maxed out, however on a 46inch screen 3/4ths of it is just blackness. with the program I tried it out at 1920x1080 (42inch at that time I think).

 

[Cirno]

Re:

It is possible to have the play window larger, it simply isn't something the team wants to implement.

I think I remember the developers expressing enthusiasm over the idea of increasing the play area size.
It may have been the first video House of Commons, there was a question about disallowed third part programs doing it, and the question of why it wasn't allowed to be done legally.

It may have become lost on the back burner, as a minor client change, or forgotten.

 

[Dermott of LS]

Re:

...

I also would like to know why they don't make the play window bigger I remember reading that the game objects wouldn't get bigger but we could see a little more of the game world by a few tiles in at least one direction. I feel that would be a huge improvement it would be nice if we could zoom in and out as well

They did, both gameplay window size (any size you want to make it really, even across 3 monitors if you're just that froggy) and a zoom feature. They are nice "Enhancements".

 

[Derium of ls]

Re:

...

I also would like to know why they don't make the play window bigger I remember reading that the game objects wouldn't get bigger but we could see a little more of the game world by a few tiles in at least one direction. I feel that would be a huge improvement it would be nice if we could zoom in and out as well

They did, both gameplay window size (any size you want to make it really, even across 3 monitors if you're just that froggy) and a zoom feature. They are nice "Enhancements".

that's the issue, gotta use EC for it. eeeeew

 

[canary]

Re:

that's the issue, gotta use EC for it. eeeeew

Well, it is called the 'enhanced client' for a reason.

Not that I use it, just saying.

 

[Derium of ls]

Re:

Well, it is called the 'enhanced client' for a reason.

Not that I use it, just saying.

it might 'enhance' the window size, as for the graphics? It makes UO look like it was from the 1980's instead of the 90's to me. Nothing looks right, it's blurry and your avatar doesn't look like it even goes with the game you're playing. bleh.

 

[canary]

Re:

it might 'enhance' the window size, as for the graphics? It makes UO look like it was from the 1980's instead of the 90's to me. Nothing looks right, it's blurry and your avatar doesn't look like it even goes with the game you're playing. bleh.

Pretty much. Not to mention my game screen does this weird 'wavey' things causing items to flicker/ wave as I run.

Not a fan. But it does have its fans, and it is the EC for a reason.

If they ever get it working to where the art is decent, the wavey thing is goine and everything zoome well, I'm sold.

As it stands now, no.

 

[Dermott of LS]

Re:

...

as for the graphics? It makes UO look like it was from the 1980's instead of the 90's to me. Nothing looks right, it's blurry

That was the mistake of using the 2d artwork in the EC instead of refining the KR artwork meant for the client (let's not argue about the style of the artwork, let's look at the technicalities here) .

Let me explain a little:

UO's Legacy (2d) atwork has a native resolution (much like LCD monitors now). It was designed around a 640x480 resolution and not meant for zooming or scaling. Because of this, any attempts to zoom the artwork causes it to pixelate and distort.

KR/EC/Gamebryo, for whatever reason, has a default zoom setting (the setting you log in with initially and when you press *) that is closer in than the Legacy native resolution, thus the first image people see is of distorted graphics.

It's the number one gripe that I have had about the EC from day one.

 

[Ezekiel Zane]

Re:

...

KR/EC/Gamebryo, for whatever reason, has a default zoom setting (the setting you log in with initially and when you press *) that is closer in than the Legacy native resolution, thus the first image people see is of distorted graphics.

It's the number one gripe that I have had about the EC from day one.

It continues to baffle me why the hell they haven't fixed the default zoom in the EC to match the Classic Client's?

I've fixed my zoom using the trick in the EC forum. It makes the EC look much better. It should be that zoom level by default.

 

[Korik Bloodguard]

Whoa, thread necro.

 

[Derium of ls]

Epic Shows Off Mind Blowing Next-Gen Graphics


let's just use unreal engine 3, it will only require three GTX 480s in your comp!

... but damn does that look good.

 

[Saphireena]

Since this thread has come alive again, I thought I'd just show a project I've been working on over the years to double the size of the client. So far we've just seen bits and pieces, but what would a full screen client look like?

Here is what I started off with: A screenshot in original size: (if you see a magnifying glass when taking the mouse over the image, please click it!).

http://www.andrea.net/uo/general/art/gfx/grecian_isle_original.jpg

Here is the same image doubled in size, as is:

http://www.andrea.net/uo/general/art/gfx/grecian_isle_zoomed.jpg

And here's the polished version (still under construction):

http://www.andrea.net/uo/general/art/gfx/grecian_isle_under_construction.jpg

Things to take into consideration:

• The size is huge, leaving little black area, but remember that the screenshot was taken with the largest resolution chosen when the client was open, so by choosing a smaller resolution in the game client, so to see more black, it's just a matter of choosing a smaller resolution in game options.

• Remember that when UO first came out, the client probably filled a lot of the screen - we've just become accustomed to seeing more and more black area as the years have gone by and our resolutions have become bigger and the game has shrunk.

• Zooming in and out could work so that when zoomed in, it uses this set of graphics, when zoomed out, it uses the current legacy graphics.

• Alot of the things in this shot have not been even touched yet (such as the gumps) and many things are unfinished (sand, plants etc)

• And most importantly: Doing the work for just this one screenshot has been a HUGE amount of work. To make a client look like this would be a massive undertaking. It would require a large team of artists or outsourcing to get this done.

 

[Llewen]

Nice work Saphireena!

 

[LadyNico]

Like you, Saphi, I've left accounts open but haven't actually been active in UO for a very long time.

This thread prompted me to wade through all the patches since the last disk I had (9th Anniversary).

Now it's just trying to remember what & where I'd set all my macroes!

I'll continue to hope that the powers that be will find it in their hearts & wallets to bring back the real beauty of UO.

In the meantime, you make my heart smile, Saphi.

 

[HD2300]

Check this out, it is amazing. The scaled up versions are actually sharper and have better quality than the originals.

Original ->

hq3x Pixel art scaling algorithm

Original ->

hq3x Pixel art scaling algorithm

"hq3x is a fast, high-quality 3x magnification filter... The filter was not designed for photographs, but for images with clear sharp edges, like line graphics or cartoon sprites. It was also designed to be fast enough to process 256x256 images in real-time. " HiEnd3D

"It was designed to be fast enough to process 256x256 images in real time" in 2003, which means today it could possibly scale up the images in real time in a modified CC client.

For other types of algorithms for scaling pixel art also see Pixel art scaling algorithms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Cirno]

I think there are big differences between what an automated system could do, and what Saphireena does.
An automatic system takes the data that's there and scales it up while trying to preserve the details by making a guess at how it could scale up.
Saphireena looks at the art, and what the art is supposed to be, and then scales it up preserving not only the original style, but preserving the intent of the image.
To the machine, it's a bunch of pixels, to Saphireena it's a cactus, or a message board.

 

[HD2300]

I think there are big differences between what an automated system could do, and what Saphireena does.
An automatic system takes the data that's there and scales it up while trying to preserve the details by making a guess at how it could scale up.
Saphireena looks at the art, and what the art is supposed to be, and then scales it up preserving not only the original style, but preserving the intent of the image.
To the machine, it's a bunch of pixels, to Saphireena it's a cactus, or a message board.

Of course a talented artist can always do it better given unlimited time. Saphireena has posted that would be a huge massive job requiring a large team of artists. Read >$1,000,0000

So here it is, hq2x from hq2x.exe - ntssp - Project Hosting on Google Code using original bmp graphics, with a simple sharpen (all except moongate, soulstone and ladder) applied if it looks better. Time taken - 30 seconds for each to visually compare and save the best version.

If the original graphic is dodgy, the scaled image is also dodgy. Not bad for a faction of the cost and a faction of the time to redraw manually each graphic. And yes some need retouching but it will be faster to retouch the hq2x version instead of the scaled version.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Not bad for automated.



They could have always done something automated and then hired an artist to clean up the images that were more-obviously messed up after being expanded.

I say "could have" because the time for this has passed.

Few probably remember this, but Draconi dropped what I consider a bombshell some months (years?) ago. The KR client, the precursor to our current EC, as an afterthought. UO was going to be Free-to-Play; that was Darkscribe's vision. It was part of the deal to bring him aboard as Producer. (Say what you want about Darkscribe people, it was very clear that this was a smart man and a genuine UO fan. I wonder if he still plays.)

EA, however, went back on this and instead told the team to come up with a new client.

From what I can tell, they told the team to come up with a new client but never gave them the money to do it right. Hence what we have now, an "Enhanced" Client still in beta. One which sucks too many resources relative to what it can do.

That's EA for you.

Anyway, why do I bring this up? Because a massive redo of the 2d art/client functionality would have been a great idea back then. As an alternative to KR/EC.

Now, it is merely wish fulfillment.

Don't get me wrong I'd love it if, after the smashing success of the Star Wars game (*sarcastic chuckle*), EA decides to throw some of the excess money to its current MMO properties to see what can be done with them, and the result is either an Enhanced Client that's actually more usable, and/or a Classic Client that's more worth the time of day.

But I'd love a lot of things.

Few of them have any serious likelihood of coming to pass. Ever.

-Galen's player

Of course a talented artist can always do it better given unlimited time. Saphireena has posted that would be a huge massive job requiring a large team of artists. Read >$1,000,0000

So here it is, hq2x from hq2x.exe - ntssp - Project Hosting on Google Code using original bmp graphics, with a simple sharpen (all except moongate, soulstone and ladder) applied if it looks better. Time taken - 30 seconds for each to visually compare and save the best version.

If the original graphic is dodgy, the scaled image is also dodgy. Not bad for a faction of the cost and a faction of the time to redraw manually each graphic. And yes some need retouching but it will be faster to retouch the hq2x version instead of the scaled version.

 

[G.v.P]

How do you use the .exe? I couldn't figure out how to download files...

 

[HD2300]

How do you use the .exe? I couldn't figure out how to download files...

Link on RHS of that page which says 'View raw file'.

You run it from the command prompt. Usage: hq2x.exe input.bmp output.bmp

You can get the original bmps using a UO art extractor.

 

[G.v.P]

Link on RHS of that page which says 'View raw file'.

You run it from the command prompt. Usage: hq2x.exe input.bmp output.bmp

You can get the original bmps using a UO art extractor.

Oh wow, have to run it in DOS? Okay. I was actually interested in the program for my own art . Will have to fool around. I had the hq2x downloaded, but then when I dbl click it on my XP computer the command prompt window doesn't stay up, so I was like hrm.

Let's see... cd Desktop ... hq2x.exe ... okay. Okay. And it seems like you have to use a 256 color...oh. Well, it worked, but then it changed some of the colors. Weird. Okay, ran through it again w/ 24 bit, worked. Nice :0.

 

[Saphireena]

Hey really nice that you tested hq2x, I downloaded it but couldn't figure out how to use it.

As for the results of the algorithm, sorry to be blunt - but scaled up versions look like crap. Especially the treasure chest. *wince wince*

Something that some folks fail to understand is the value of the pixels themselves. They call it pixel crack for a reason.

Remember when you were a kid and you played with plastic animals/soldiers "Made in China". The ones that were modelled and painted kinda sloppy and had the seams showing?

Then remember getting a "Britains" plastic animal/soldier that had the most realistic mold, with tiny and carefully painted details, and how much more valuable it felt? Remember treasuring the Britains ones, gazing at them in the toy store and dreaming of collecting the whole set?

That's what I'm talking about. Delicacy, detail, miniature, care, quality, addiction, collecting and the charm of the miniature world.

Ultima Online is a MMO in many of the traditional senses (pvp, crafting, monster bashing, adventure), but it's also a game about the things I mentioned above. The fact that "rares" used to sell for hundreds of dollars on Ebay back in the glory days of UO... the fact that people will spend days and even weeks decorating their houses to perfection, proves it.

Skinning UO with second rate graphics would only take the game a step away from what holds it's charm still today, and one step closer to becoming a generic MMO that people will care less about.

 

[G.v.P]

Hey really nice that you tested hq2x, I downloaded it but couldn't figure out how to use it.

1) Download hq2x
2) Run Command Prompt (Programs>Accessories>Command Prompt)
3) Enter in CP: CD Desktop
4) Put a .BMP or .TGA file on your desktop
5) Enter in CP: hq2x.exe input.bmp output.bmp (or in other words, the input.bmp should be the name of the file you want two times larger, then the output.bmp should be the name you want the larger file to be named)

But yeah, like Saph said, upscaling doesn't really work...wonder if gray background hurts though.

 

[olduofan]

Since this thread has come alive again, I thought I'd just show a project I've been working on over the years to double the size of the client. So far we've just seen bits and pieces, but what would a full screen client look like?

Here is what I started off with: A screenshot in original size: (if you see a magnifying glass when taking the mouse over the image, please click it!).

http://www.andrea.net/uo/general/art/gfx/grecian_isle_original.jpg

Here is the same image doubled in size, as is:

http://www.andrea.net/uo/general/art/gfx/grecian_isle_zoomed.jpg

And here's the polished version (still under construction):

http://www.andrea.net/uo/general/art/gfx/grecian_isle_under_construction.jpg

Things to take into consideration:

• The size is huge, leaving little black area, but remember that the screenshot was taken with the largest resolution chosen when the client was open, so by choosing a smaller resolution in the game client, so to see more black, it's just a matter of choosing a smaller resolution in game options.

• Remember that when UO first came out, the client probably filled a lot of the screen - we've just become accustomed to seeing more and more black area as the years have gone by and our resolutions have become bigger and the game has shrunk.

• Zooming in and out could work so that when zoomed in, it uses this set of graphics, when zoomed out, it uses the current legacy graphics.

• Alot of the things in this shot have not been even touched yet (such as the gumps) and many things are unfinished (sand, plants etc)

• And most importantly: Doing the work for just this one screenshot has been a HUGE amount of work. To make a client look like this would be a massive undertaking. It would require a large team of artists or outsourcing to get this done.

Very nice to see you back here posting

And all I can say like always when i see your work WOW great job

I wish the devs would hirer you I can dream right ha

 

[Woodsman]

But yeah, like Saph said, upscaling doesn't really work...wonder if gray background hurts though.

What hurts is that the software is having to fill in pixels that weren't there before and it's having to guess certain things, and it's not easy. It's why Saph's images look so much better than some fire-and-forget application.

If it were easy to just upscale everything, then there wouldn't be so many companies selling so many applications and Photoshop plugins that deal with enlarging images. Most of those still require a human touch after all is said and done.

If it was as simple as running it through an application, EA would have rounded up a bunch of interns and had them spend the summer converting UO art years ago.

 

[Saphireena]

If it was as simple as running it through an application, EA would have rounded up a bunch of interns and had them spend the summer converting UO art years ago.

Perhaps, but let's just presume for a moment that scaling up was no problemo and could be done with some automated script in the wink of an eye.

Would EA really do it anyhow?

I somehow doubt it. Its a common (and natural) desire for companies to invest in technologies that are "hot", "the future" and "what everyone else is doing and what we should do too". In most cases, that's the smart thing to do - to innovate, to be cutting edge, to get ahead in the race for the "next coolest thing".

However, Ultima Online is not running that race and never will.

So many attempts at turning UO into a 3D game, so many years and dollars spent trying to modernize it. I often wonder what the game would be like now had all that time, money and effort been put into nurturing the original in all possible ways instead.

 

[Saphireena]

Llewen: *curtsies*

LadyNico: Oh you too eh? I remember with much warmth the last UO spurt you and I happened to have around the same time a couple of years back. It was great fun! That's the last time I've really been playing with a passion. These days I'm too preoccupied with running my guild on WoW to play UO much more than check in for holiday gifts (if even that), but I still miss the UO experience of the past. Never have been able to re-live that. And yeah my accounts are still open. Crazy to be spending monthly fees on them for so many years... *sighs*

Cirno: Let's just correct that... "a big difference between what an automated system could do and what the human eye and hand is capable of" I work with so many talented pixel artists every day at work that it feels strange to see "quality pixel art" linked to me personally. But yeah nicely put otherwise!

G.v.P: Thanks for the good instructions

 

[R Traveler]

For current mainstream "large" monitors at 1920x1080 double res art mean max game window compared to current 960x540.

I prefer 800x600 than 960x540.

Someone should try scale art to 1.5x.

 

[Demonous]

i want UO 2D to take up more than 1/4 my screen on my 24 inch monitor

 

[Cirno]

Cirno: Let's just correct that... "a big difference between what an automated system could do and what the human eye and hand is capable of" I work with so many talented pixel artists every day at work that it feels strange to see "quality pixel art" linked to me personally. But yeah nicely put otherwise!

I will respectfully disagree with your correction.
You consider your talents in comparison to those you work with, which is fair to do at work, but it was not the people you work with who have done such an amazing job of reimagining the UO artwork.
I'm afraid you may just have to resign yourself to the fact that many people, myself included, think that you and our work is awesome.

 

[Ashlynn_L]

I somehow doubt it. Its a common (and natural) desire for companies to invest in technologies that are "hot", "the future" and "what everyone else is doing and what we should do too". In most cases, that's the smart thing to do - to innovate, to be cutting edge, to get ahead in the race for the "next coolest thing".

I'm afraid this is where I have to disagree with you. Sure, when 3d in games first emerged, a lot of companies quickly switched and hopped on the bandwagon so to speak because it was hot. But it is also technically superior when handled correctly. Especially for games that are constantly growing and having new stuff added to them (like say... an MMO).

I mean look for example how much work you yourself have admitted it has taken to improve the quality of those objects. You've had to pretty much redraw them entirely and it's taken a lot of time to get them to look that good. If it's a creature, it has hundreds of frames of animation that each need to be drawn seperately.

With a 3d object, you build it, then throw a single texture on top. Animating it doesn't require any further redrawing of it. Same with wearables. Which means if you want to ADD something new to the game or animate an object or whatever, it is WAY easier and quicker. (Remember those dances, curtsies and other actions in the third dawn client which I think everyone thought were cool? They were easy to implement because of the 3d models. Try doing that in the 2d client and you're talking thousands of man hours drawing every frame, which is why 2d never got them).

Simply put, 3d is superior technology and that's why most new games use a 3d engine. You can do more with it, it's far more efficient and requires less work. With good artists and stuff, it also looks great. The big problem is that when anyone ever says 3d, people automatically think the third dawn client or WoW or something. But there is no reason why you couldn't make one that is very similar aesthetically to the original 2d UO client.

 

[HD2300]

...wonder if gray background hurts though.

Yes imo. Use the original directly from uo to remove any doubt.

The best is just get a couple of random images and see for yourself, which is what I did. I found in some cases a sharpen made it look better after the hq2x.

It doesnt work well for every image, because if the original image is crap, you will get crap twice as big, like the treasure chest wasnt that great to begin with.