Why don't they just make 2d in hi-res?

[Saphireena]

Oh trust me girl I completely agree about that EC dragon...

To me the old 2d dragon is the most beautiful thing... I remember how delighted I was to tame my first dragon... I remember I used to run around as much as I could just so I could delight in watching it fly... (absolutely bummed that my dragon doesn't fly anymore)

I miss watching it fly... the grace and beauty are beyond anything in the EC.

Oh they don't fly anymore? Aww I hadn't noticed. I wonder why they removed that feature? And glad to hear someone appreciates that wonderful dragon as much as I do .

 

[Zym Dragon]

Ok I must have been nuts to suggest these rescale experimentations. Not that anyone else seems to be bothering with helping me test the time frame, which is a shame because I would really like to see if it's possible with equal results in quality. That would be the ultimate proof that such an undertaking would be reasonable and realistic. Unfortunately if slowpokes like me were to do such work, it still remains a pretty unrealistic feat.

Patience! I am taking on the challenge and I have been putting in the time when I can to do this. Here's a preview of my results so far:

scissors - 8 minutes
hanging garlic - 16 minutes
wall torch - 14 minutes
studded armor - 40 minutes
gold coins - 12 minutes (I don't like how it turned out. I plan on redoing this)
steps - 15 minutes for outline and mortar, 10 minutes (not necessary?) left side, lower blocks, plus lower right block

About the steps... After completing the mortar, I though the steps looked pretty good, but I cleaned up the bottom left side and the entire bottom corner block. I'd be inclined to just leave it alone and only touch up the mortar on this sandstone set. What do you think?

 

[Uvtha]

An hour for a small piece? 7000 pieces that would take a whole day each? I think you are overestimating the amount of "genuine love for Ultima" someone needs. Talent and skill are more like it. Add that to a full understanding of what the end result should look like and you can cut those times down to 25% of what you have.

Lily

As someone who dabbles in pixle art, I would agree with her figures on time. Some really small seeming things can take a really really long time.

 

[Madrid]

Saphrireena they need to get you on payroll and sub contract you and other members of the UO community who are artists and have a true love for the greatest Online game of all time!

I closed down all 4 of my accounts since they pulled the plug UOKR and launched SA. I just popped on stratics to see if there was a thread/discussion on this very topic and I'm happy to see there is. Your artwork is beautiful and I would return in a heartbeat if the game had artwork/graphics like you've posted in this thread.

The current graphics and low resolution on both clients is the reason I left UO. I'll keep checking back every so often to see if any improvements are made and when there is I will definitely make a return to Sosaria which I will always consider home.

I hope players keep an open mind and continue to lobby for an improvement from the visual standpoint of UO. I'd like to make a return someday and would love to see UO around for another 20-30 years and then some!

Something like this would definitely be a step in the right direction if it's feasible.

 

[LadyNico]

I started off with the most challenging and demanding task: The Ultima dragon, probably the most beautiful and inspiring art asset in the whole game. Am I wrong in assuming that the Hildebrandt brothers had something to do with at least the concept art for these dragons? For those of you who don't know who the Hildebrandt brothers are, they were the ones who made that awesome painting that was shown back in the old versions of UO when you installed the game. Anyhow, I think their "touch" can be seen in this dragon. If there were to be any connection, it would certainly explain why this dragon has got to be the most beautiful, perfect dragon eva! Just look at how it holds it's head high and with pride, how it's eye glares with evil intent, how it gracefully curls it's tail, how the wings are raised up menacingly, how the nostrils are dilated with fury, how the skin is taut over a landscape of muscles, how it arches it neck... I could go on and on.

It took me three days to polish which was way over my estimate, and even now it's not perfect. Crysta is absolutely right in her suggestion on how animated figures should be done: remaking the original 3D model and making renders from that instead of rescaling and polishing. But despite this upscale of the dragon is useless in that sense, I'm still glad I did it. If for no other reason than to show my utter appreciation and awe I feel towards whoever made it in the first place. I remember being a newbie and seeing a dragon like this for the first time, how I just stood and stared, scared to death as it passed by letting out a roar, guided by it's tamer. But also heart aching with the desire to own one myself. And how long I worked on that tamer - nearly a year (yeah taming was still hard back then) and how long it took to tame that very first dragon. I spent 5 hours in Destard, dying over and over again until finally succeeding.

What? Oh, um, no message from me.

I have no shame in admitting I just needed to have your dragon and loving description of it here on the second page to drool over.

 

[Saphireena]

Hey Zym! Yay nice that someone is joining me in this! So far I haven't tackled the wee bits yet so I don't know how challenging they will be. But I assume the scissors and gold coins will be the worst of the lot to get to look good. It seems like you're struggling with those as well.

Here are some comments:

scissors I wouldn't say those are passable.
hanging garlic Quite nice with the time used, but could do with a bit more detail.
wall torch Nice job, especially on the stand. It looks so cute!
studded armor Not bad, and I know this must have been a lot more work than the others.
gold coins I agree they need more work. It would be cool if they looked more oval, like from an isometric perspective, but then again not having tackled these myself yet it may be very hard to do! I would assume that most players wouldn't mind these coins you have here though.
steps Well done!

I'll be starting on these tonight myself but I know already now I won't be as quick as you. I hope more people take part. It would be interesting to compare them all at the end and see what you can get with what amount of time. And at what stage they are acceptable enough. I mean I work them over to perfection but I'm sure they wouldn't need to be that precise all the time.

Lady Nico: Oh you! *nudges affectionately*

 

[Kirthag]

I joind UO back in 1997 at my sister's insistence. I'd been invited to play other games, but came to UO for that dragon. THAT.... is the fantasy dragon we all grew up with. THAT is the dragon I have on my corner table, rearing up over a (scantily) chainmail clad barbarian female with a sword in her hand. THAT is a Hildebrandt Dragon. They are (imho) the best Fantasy Artists, along with Clyde Caldwell.


I am also a photoshop guru - having worked on images from dogs for Purina to Heineken bottles for the Swordfish movie back in the day. I also dabble a bit in sprite work.

Saph... my hat off to you for doing hat you did. I had done sprite work for another 2d game and it is not easy - but it is doable - particularly when someone is doing it out of love of the art and the chosen game.

*note to self: visit uhall more often*

I cast my talent and skills in if EA should ever listen to the community and enlist the help of volunteers. I remember the Companion and the Seer days... I also remember the fallout. When a busines begins to rely too heavily on volunteers, they are no longer volunteers. However something like this, where volunteers do the art and pass it to EA for the programming, I believe a one-shot contract would do it.

I've dabbled a bit in video game graphics (my son wants to emmulate Richard Garriot!) and can say that in a production atmosphere, this is a feasible project.

16,000 tiles (landscape, housing, trees, etc.)
10-15 frames for each creatures/players (only 108?)
Clothing items (hue overlays a grey object)
Special event artwork (the jack-o-lanterns are awesome!)

---

wait.. just had a thought!

Perhaps they are already working on a higher res 2D client!

oh... but... the layoffs


sorry, its late and my mind moves like quicksilver...


If this should ever become a project, I volunteer my oh-so-precious time. I agree that the "classic" client needs to move forward... I have a dual monitor system, and actually would like to see the gumps "float" outside of the main program frame... use one monitor for the play field, the other monitor for my paperdoll, pak and other gumps I keep open.

Personally... and no not looking for a flame war... I do not like the new client. Looks too... WoW-ish for me. If I wanted to play WoW, I would be there. But WoW is missing one HUGE element that makes me happy.... the ability to customize things. You know.. build house, create things, make my pixel-self look like this barbar girl in my statue.

Oh... and WoW doesn't have the Hildebrandt Dragon.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

While the examples given by the OP really look nice, I can imagine that there are significant technical issues that might make the whole thing impossible.

First off, higher resolution will require significantly higher system performance. And people are already whining on the Enhanced Client board that they will quit UO when they are forced to update their 10-year-old PC. Now, animate those big pixel objects (or even 100 of them on the screen), and you'll run into even more performance problems.

Second, I think you cannot really improve the graphics by sticking to pixel graphics. Pixels cannot be zoomed (see pixelated objects in the Enhanced Client), because it will look extremely bad. So all you'd achieve by increasing the resolution is that people will need a bigger screen and faster computers.

The only real solution for UO graphics is going with real 3D objects, which gives you all possibilities like zooming, lighting, animation, texturing, anything, in high quality.

The problem of the past clients was, that 3D objects were VERY pooly done, and the underlying engine doesn't seem to favor 3D graphics too much. At least, that's my impression of things.

To my opinion, if you want to do it right, you have to completely redesign UO. Everything else will be the same old mediocre crap that will be refused by most players.

 

[Stranger]

we just released the Xbox version of our old classic game called Tower Bloxx Deluxe (I was the lead artist for that project btw)

I knew it!!! I knew it I knew it I knew it! Okay not really, but I remember you posting here that you worked for Digital Chocolate and as soon as I played the demo on my Xbox 360 and saw the logo and the 2D graphics I immediately thought of you! Wow that is crazy

Err...What topic is this? What forum is this? Where am I? This isn't the Saphireena rocks thread? Hmm...I always have trouble sticking to the topic. Don't mind me! *wonders off*

WAIT!

I can be on topic! Really! I can! Just give me a chance!

You did an amazing job on up scaling the dragon! It looks awesome! I have no idea how you managed to pull that off! When I first saw that image as part of your "little assignment" my jaw dropped and I figured you scared all the pixel artists away! Haha that is one daunting task! I was anxiously awaiting to see if anyone would do it and you did it! Fantastic! I tried to up scale the scissors but I couldn't do it. At least not with the ability to stick to the original artwork so wonderfully like you do! But I am not a pixel artist by any means and my mouse is acting wonky. But I love UO and I love your vision so I just had to try! My inability to do it stinks cause I'd love to contribute but what it does do is reinforce that you have amazing talent! Great job!

I was really hoping more people would contribute to your "little assignment". I love seeing these up scales and would love to see other peoples handy work! C'mon pixel artists! Step it up! Show your love for UO! Up scale those pixels! *Note this was written before I saw that Zym Dragon posted!

(I stepped away from the computer for a few hours without posting this for some reason...whoops.)

Okay here are my thoughts Zym Dragon...(Not that you asked for them hehe)
I am not trying to be rude just give constructive criticism

Scissors: These don't look sharp enough. I can't imagine you'd be able to cut a stick of butter with them!

Hanging garlic: Good job but a bit too cartoony. I like them though

Gold coins: Can't really complain about these. The original artwork is kind of a blob to begin with so yours also look like a blob. Only now it is a high definition blob!

Steps: The way you filled in the pixels is good on the upper half of the bottom bricks surface, but bad on the lower half. The bottom half has these weird weave marks. It looks very odd. As for not touching up the sandstone I think that is a bad idea because when you zoom in you just see huge chunks of 4 pixels for everyone 1 pixel that was originally there. It looks too pixelated.

Wall torch: You did a good job with this one! My only complaint is the metal part has streakyness to it. There shouldn't be horizontal streaks on a thin piece of metal that is vertical. If anything the streaks should be going vertical. (But I really don't think there should be any streaks on it.)

Studded Armor: This one looks good, but if I zoom in a lot I see something odd. The way you are filling in the pixels is like a pattern. They all look like little Zs.

It seems like your just filling in the pixels in a very simplistic way. Saphireena can see what the original artist imagined, intended, and was thinking of but was unable to add due to such a small resolution. She sees where the details in the items should be and incorporates it into the art without changing the original feel. She adds in a lot of extra artistic detail that can't be seen in the original sized version. It's hard to explain. Of course she works on the pieces for hour(s) or day(s) and you only spent a couple minutes. If you want to make them look better you need to figure out how to get away from the little Z pattern your doing and figure out how to add some real detail to them. Don't ask me how cause I can't even do it! It is very hard!

Sorry for being so picky!
Thanks for posting them!
I wish more pixel artists would take the time like you to contribute!

 

[hawkeye_pike]

C'mon pixel artists! Step it up! Show your love for UO! Up scale those pixels!

I wish more pixel artists would take the time like you to contribute!

I, too, am a Photoshop pro, and I actually would love to contribute something for free, if I knew that it would make sense. But if you read my posting above, you can see why I consider this (beautifully done) upscaling a waste of time.

 

[Anakena]

While the examples given by the OP really look nice, I can imagine that there are significant technical issues that might make the whole thing impossible.

First off, higher resolution will require significantly higher system performance. And people are already whining on the Enhanced Client board that they will quit UO when they are forced to update their 10-year-old PC. Now, animate those big pixel objects (or even 100 of them on the screen), and you'll run into even more performance problems.

Second, I think you cannot really improve the graphics by sticking to pixel graphics. Pixels cannot be zoomed (see pixelated objects in the Enhanced Client), because it will look extremely bad. So all you'd achieve by increasing the resolution is that people will need a bigger screen and faster computers.

The only real solution for UO graphics is going with real 3D objects, which gives you all possibilities like zooming, lighting, animation, texturing, anything, in high quality.

The problem of the past clients was, that 3D objects were VERY pooly done, and the underlying engine doesn't seem to favor 3D graphics too much. At least, that's my impression of things.

To my opinion, if you want to do it right, you have to completely redesign UO. Everything else will be the same old mediocre crap that will be refused by most players.

I am not a specialist of such issues but from what I understand, the problem is that the original pictures are too small and get pixellated when upscaled.

The uspcaling can be done either on the fly (when the client supports game area resizing but it can be a burden for the GPU) or either offline (when the client recreates new graphic files and animations on basis of the original files). It is what the UoMap does when you start it : it checks if the map has changed and eventually recreates new maps for the different resolutions.

Such a system could be used for UO (or for the EC on basis of the UOKR designs?). But we stay with the pixel problem.

Wouldn't it be better from start to create items in higher resolution and if needed have to downscale them? Weren't the original arts created in higher resolution before importing them in the game files?

 

[northwoodschopper]

the 3d client was a great idea, but was poorly executed. what i believed killed it was all the memory leaks that caused really poor performance from the get-go. at the end of it's life though, it was on equal grounds to the classic client if your computer could run it smooth. however, the 3d models were pretty ugly by it's life end, and the scaling was bad. the change from 3rd Dawn models to AoS models was terrible--the 3rd dawn models at least looked like their world art etc, while AoS wildly changed appearances and scaling. arguably the other thing that killed 3d was that certain 3rd party apps didn't work at full capacity on the 3d client...

2d art is great for static items and world art. 3d models are much more versitile for mobiles, mainly due to the ease of editing and implementing animations and new models. afterall, 3d client did have a load of animations for the player to utilize. i don't think any dev team will ever expand the npc animations simply because there's way too many frames to keep track of, not to mention the preexisting errors in certain npc animation frames that still remain in the 2d client since 1997. i wished that the art team working on 3rd dawn models would've recreated the exact animations from the 2d client (and fill in missing frames), instead of the ones they came up with for replacement.

anyways

i think the upscaling of art assets look great, and would like to see terrain tiles upp'd too, since we stare at terrain most of the time in-game.

i'd like to see an upp'd paperdoll too.

 

[Saphireena]

Well I got a few more rescales done and put side by side with Zym Dragon's stuff it's interesting to see the differences. Basically, the longer you work on a piece, the more polished it becomes. But sometimes things can become overpolished, such as in the case of the hanging armor, which I worked on more than twice as much, yet did not turn out significantly better - perhaps even worse. I'm most pleased with the onions, one can clearly see what an extra 9 minutes will get you.

The scissors went through quite a radical change under my hand and from the time spent, you can see I really needed to play around alot to attain a proper scissor shape. I knew they'd be tricky!

I think my torch is more clean, but I prefer Zym Dragon's wiggly flame which makes it look like real moving fire.

In addition I did the armoire and am waiting for Zym to get it done too so we can compare. Still need to give a go at those coins and stairs.

This test has been a good indicator of what you get with which amount of minutes. Do items need to be perfectly polished? As we can see in these samples, not necessarilly. So far I'd say that a reasonable outcome which both looks good and is economical for the time budget would be somewhere between Zym's and my assets.

Again, if more folks would take part, it'd give an even broader perspective. Pacific Lily? Crysta?

 

[Saphireena]

Kirthag: Oooh you don't know how delighted I am that someone recognized the Hildrebrandt thing! And now that I Googled their dragon images, you're right. That most definitely is a Hildebrandt dragon by golly. And to think that this piece of art... this masterpiece... this treasure is being swept away but some helpless weak 3D monstrosity. It's almost criminal!

I don't think EA would ever agree to such a volunteer program for the simple fact that it would be an embarrassment and humiliating to their art team that players had to help out. Imagine the blogs, the articles... Not to mention the legal issues. Nope, will never happen I'm afraid.

Oh yes, that would indeed be great if the gumps could be moved out of the client area. I could totally see myself doing the same thing.

Very cool to hear all the things you described about you, your talents and your life btw.

hawkeye_pike: Nice to hear your opinion as well. I've actually been a secret admirer of your guild concept for some time now and even considered rolling a new character to apply. Alas there is not time for everything and running a guild in WoW is time consuming as it is.

I can't really comment on how double sized assets would affect game performance, but I definately meant that the assets were to be used with the classic client, not the enhanced client.

As for zooming, the way I was thinking it could work is have only 2 zoom levels. Zoomed out (which is the size we see in the classic client now - but just with more game play area showing, and zoomed in -> the rescaled version. I think that would be perfectly sufficient for now.

You say that with the wonders of 3D, we can have "all possibilities like zooming, lighting, animation, texturing, anything, in high quality". And would this kind of client work on everyone's machines and be free of any performance issues, or would you expect players to upgrade? And would the decorative items retain their charm? Would a rare item still feel special? I'll bet you it wouldn't.

If you think that a hi-res version of the 2D client would be "mediocre crap" that people will refuse, explain to me why they persist in playing with the smaller version if this mediocre crap? Try and understand that it would be the same 2D game as we know it, but only doubled in size. No special tricks, no huge changes, nothing new to try to learn. Same stuff, just bigger. That's the client people are playing, and if you think they'd run away just because it was bigger in size, I dare say you're wrong.

I'd still love for you to contribute to the scaling test. If even with one asset. Maybe the easiest one such as the onions, torch or stairs. Just to get some comparison in times used.

Stranger: Woah! Now that Tower Bloxx thing is amazing. The logo is actually not made by me, it's from the previous versions of Tower Bloxx. But for instance the menus and these intro graphics are my stuff :

And thanks again for your lovely compliments but if only you saw the stuff our artists at Dchoc make... Oh hey I know! You should check out the art at pixeljoint.com - now THAT stuff is amaaaazing!

Anakena: Nice to hear about the various possibilities. Sometimes I wish I knew how to program, if for no other reason than to understand what is feasible and what is not.

As for whether or not there are large versions of the pixel items such as furniture etc, good question. As has been discussed in previous threads, at least the 3D models for mobile assets were lost. As to whether or not furniture was rendered from 3D objects, I haven't a clue. I'd assume the purely pixel art assets would not have a larger version originally since downscaling still needs pixel polishing, although not as much as upscaling.

 

[Stranger]

3d client did have a load of animations for the player to utilize.

I absolutley loved this. This was my favorite thing about the 3D client. Being able to dance, clap, fall over, wave, sit down, etc were a blast to play with. It would be so fun to be able to dance at EM events. Clap and cheer when a group of players take down a harbinger, and actually sit down at a bank and be a real "bank sitter". LOL I would love that. Too bad we didn't get these types of animations in the new KR/SA clients Really disappointing.

But sometimes things can become overpolished, such as in the case of the hanging armor, which I worked on more than twice as much, yet did not turn out significantly better - perhaps even worse.

I do not think your hanging armor turned out worse. If you zoom in you can see how much betters yours is, especially on the shoulder pad. Yours are smooth and fluid whereas Zym's has clumps of pixels with the same color all bunched together. You've also added a lot more detail! It looks very good! I'd definitely hang it on a wall inside my house!

Your onions are absolutely amazing, as is all your artwork. Everything you touch turns to gold.

I don't know why I made that "cartoony" comment about Zym's onions. Yours look cartoony too. (Although they have a lot more detail you just have to zoom in to see it since the shades of colors aren't very different.) As do most of the upscales. I guess thats what happens when your not allowed to add more colors! But it is not a bad cartoony it is a good cartoony!

Hey! Now that I look at it, the scissors look broken in the original. No wonder my tailor has been cutting crooked all these years! Oh and the cramps! The horrible horrible cramps! It's so hard to hold such awkward scissors. I'd love to get my hands on your beautifully crafted scissors!

I think your torch is wonderful! If it was animated you could make the flame wiggle however you like!

Your armoire is absolutely beautiful! I think I am running out of words to describe how remarkable your upscaling is! Maybe if I just sit and stare at it with my mouth open and drool rolling down my chin you'll understand how much I like it!

Why don't they just make the client with simple resized to 200% images with no polish and then release a certain amount of polished artwork every month? It'll look extremely ugly and pixely at first but after a few months it will look better and better. They could even poll the players to see what they most want polished next! Hehe. I guess that wouldn't be such a good idea though because they would just lay off all the artists before they were finished.

Stranger: Woah! Now that Tower Bloxx thing is amazing. The logo is actually not made by me, it's from the previous versions of Tower Bloxx. But for instance the menus and these intro graphics are my stuff :

Oops, I didn't mean I saw the tower bloxx logo. I meant I saw the Digital Chocolate intro screen pop up before the game started. Then I saw the introductory was 2D and was wondering if the wonderful lady who upscaled the Ultima Online images had anything to do with this game since she posted on the stratics forums many moons ago that she worked for Digital Chocolate. (Your the only person I know that works for Digital Chocolate. Hehe) Anyway I am delighted to find out it is you! That is awesome! This might sound a little strange...but...I LOVE THE WAY SHE WIGGLES THE PENCIL!!! Hahaha!

Thanks for the link I will definitely check it out

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

First off, higher resolution will require significantly higher system performance.

Considering that the original client would run quite well on a Pentium 100Mhz with 64MB (yes, thats Mega Bytes, not Giga Bytes) of RAM...I don't think that in a world of multi-core processors running at multiple Ghz speeds and Gigabytes of RAM that overhead is going to be a huge factor in pushing double sized sprites. Your web browser is capable of producing higher rez images than we are discussing here. In 1998, you would have had a valid point, in 2009, not so much.

For my part, and I know it means nothing, I think that UO either needs to incorporate exactly what Saphireena has done here...or they need to just resign themselves to doing a UO2, and close the old one down. That is, if the goal is longevity beyond the 12+years this game has survived.

Great work Saphireena!! I love the art. It makes me sad to see what could have been...

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Kirthag:As for zooming, the way I was thinking it could work is have only 2 zoom levels. Zoomed out (which is the size we see in the classic client now - but just with more game play area showing, and zoomed in -> the rescaled version. I think that would be perfectly sufficient for now.

You say that with the wonders of 3D, we can have "all possibilities like zooming, lighting, animation, texturing, anything, in high quality". And would this kind of client work on everyone's machines and be free of any performance issues, or would you expect players to upgrade? And would the decorative items retain their charm? Would a rare item still feel special? I'll bet you it wouldn't.

If you think that a hi-res version of the 2D client would be "mediocre crap" that people will refuse, explain to me why they persist in playing with the smaller version if this mediocre crap? Try and understand that it would be the same 2D game as we know it, but only doubled in size. No special tricks, no huge changes, nothing new to try to learn. Same stuff, just bigger. That's the client people are playing, and if you think they'd run away just because it was bigger in size, I dare say you're wrong.

I'd still love for you to contribute to the scaling test. If even with one asset. Maybe the easiest one such as the onions, torch or stairs. Just to get some comparison in times used.

To my opinion, zooming is not really an important issue. With the EC, I zoom to the default level every time I start the client, and never change the zoom level during gameplay.

Of course, a real 3D game would not necessarily require a high-end gaming computer, but at least a decent modern machine (A $70 graphics adapter would suffice on a 2-year-old computer, just compare to other games). It would be a mistake to believe that you'd be able to run UO on the same old machines after improved graphics, even if you only improve the resolution of objects.
And, if you'd put some effort and taste into modeling the 3D objects, I believe that items still would look special, and rare items still could look rare.

I'm not saying that your high-res suggestions are "mediocre crap", they are very nice. I'm saying that tampering with an outdated game engine and with an outdated graphics system is the wrong way to go. If you want to improve UO's graphics, you have to do it right.

Maybe I'll go and scale a few objects. Currently, I don't even have time to play UO, but this is only temporary.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Considering that the original client would run quite well on a Pentium 100Mhz with 64MB (yes, thats Mega Bytes, not Giga Bytes) of RAM...I don't think that in a world of multi-core processors running at multiple Ghz speeds and Gigabytes of RAM that overhead is going to be a huge factor in pushing double sized sprites. Your web browser is capable of producing higher rez images than we are discussing here. In 1998, you would have had a valid point, in 2009, not so much.

Well, even on my high-end machine the Legacy Client lags if many animated objects are on the screen. So it doesn't really have to do with system performance, but with the game's graphics engine. Basically, the client just displays animated pixel objects, like a flip-book. This is a very inefficient way to animate graphics (that's how it was done 12 years ago), and not really suitable for high-res animated objects. With the increase of game standards and resolution, the graphics engines of games had to evolve in order to work properly. This was the most important motivation behind the invention of 3D graphics. 3D graphics allowed game developers to animate high resolution objects on a screen in the first place.

Today, nobody would even think about using pixel graphics when animating high-res objects.

 

[TheGrimmOmen]

Well yeah, basically everything stays the same, it is just a far higher resolution.. This is the change all UO players want, we don't want anymore "GRAPHICS OVERHAUL" We just want a higher resolution..

So there's a couple of things about the same, just higher resolution world art:

1) It would all have to be hand painted, and although our artists are capable, we're talking about hand painting thousands of pieces of artwork. The scope is huge- especially given the fact that the art team is tasked up to our eyeballs on any given day.
2) The Legacy client doesn't have a means of scaling tileart assets. Meaning that the resolution you create the art at is how it shows up in the world. So if you doubled the resolution of a cactus, in game you get a cactus that's twice as big!

One thing that we've learned from UOKR world art creation is that we have to make 3D art from a 2D art perspective. This isn't as easy as this sounds. You see, modern game artists are used to doing things to scale with the world environment. For example, if they wanted to make a brick wall, you would want to make sure that the bricks in the texture are sized correctly in relationship to the player. This is because in more modern 3D games, not scaling things properly makes them look ... well, stupid. But when you are creating 2D art, you paint them so that the texture can be interpreted correctly, not so that it's necessarily to scale. There's also the disconnect between things looking correct in 3D, and once they've been rendered out in the UO perspective, they look odd due to UO's military orthographic perspective. So the result is that you end up having to make some things look "wrong" in 3D so that they look "right" in an orthographic perspective.


... oh, that's where I left my can of worms. I wonder what's inside???

-GO

 

[It Lives]

Huge scope? Start now. Start small, over time it will seem less imposing.

Call it job security.

 

[Viquire]

Thanks GO. I learned a new word today.

Would the orthographic disconnect have anything to do with the fact that the angle of isometric view seems different by a few degrees betwixt the EC and legacy clients.

Not trying to be an ass, just asking.

 

[TheGrimmOmen]

Oh and by the way, if you're wondering "So what if it isn't "true pixel art" anymore, isn't the main thing that it looks good?". Well it's more complicated than that. For instance the palette system in UO which colors various assets in different shades. From what I understand, the original graphic is grayscale and the palette has been assigned to replace certain shades of gray with the new color. So it's looking for an exact RGB value to replace. And so when you bring the anti-alias "melting" of two colors into each other as in your algorithm example, suddenly there are thousands of new colors to deal with which the engine was not built to handle.

Everything get's palettized prior to the game having to deal with it, so it's not so much an client issue. Some of the graphics are greyscale, some are full color, and some are both. As far as hueing, the client finds a value in the hue nearest to the value of the pixel, and assigns that color to the pixel. You are correct in that it could introduce artifacts into the graphic in the form of "static" or, and most likely, patches where lots of pixels get assigned the same value, thus creating patches of flat color. But this would obviously only affect world art that's hued.

An additional problem, as JC mentioned, is of course the fact that more colors = more for the computer and network to load, which would already be stressed by the larger dimensions of upscaled graphics as is.

Well, since it's palettized, it'll be the same number of colors, but since there would be twice as many pixels, it does increase the workload.



-GO

 

[TheGrimmOmen]

Thanks GO. I learned a new word today.

Would the orthographic disconnect have anything to do with the fact that the angle of isometric view seems different by a few degrees betwixt the EC and legacy clients.

Not trying to be an ass, just asking.

Actually, and I'll have to check, but that might have more to do with Isometric Vs. Military Isometric perspectives. I haven't been envolved a lot in the world art part of UO (although now my pipeline objectives are including world art processing), so I'm not totally certain.


.. and no, it's to perilous.

 

[TheGrimmOmen]

16,000 tiles (landscape, housing, trees, etc.)
10-15 frames for each creatures/players (only 108?)
Clothing items (hue overlays a grey object)
Special event artwork (the jack-o-lanterns are awesome!)

Uhh - a little off there:

Legacy:
Creatures (averaged): ~500 frames of animation each.
Animals: ~250-300 frames each
Players/Clothing/Weapons :~1500 frames each.
Tileart Count > 20,000

-GO

 

[Dolphoenix]

Uhh - a little off there:

Legacy:
Creatures (averaged): ~500 frames of animation each.
Animals: ~250-300 frames each
Players/Clothing/Weapons :~1500 frames each.
Tileart Count > 20,000

-GO

Grimm I'm going to have to call you out on this one. I doubt seriously that every number you provided is, in actuality, a whole even number.

lol. Grimm I honestly don't know why you're even taking part in this discussion. I tried explaining the complexities of it over two years ago. The sheer number of pieces of art work, not to mention the increased size of the patch files for double sized graphics. on and on and on yada yada.

I think it's a damn shame whenever someone posts a couple of nice pieces of art work and gets people worked up. And yeah I know once upon a time I was guilty of it too.

You guys do damn fine work for what you have to work with. Let's face it. You can only polish a turd so much.

 

[TheGrimmOmen]

Hmmm... hmm... I just found this article in Gamasutra, published last month:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25703



I wonder if it would be worth pursuing more experimentations with these upscales after all...?

I think Tim's quote here was to capture the spirit of what we want to do, but not define our actual goals or methods.

As for continuing, I like to see threads like this, so I can't think of a reason not.

-GO

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Well, even on my high-end machine the Legacy Client lags if many animated objects are on the screen.

Every time I hear someone with this complaint, and I troubleshoot it for them, the problem turns out to be local, not with the client or the server.

I run a 3.33Ghz Quad Core P4, with 8GB DDR3 RAM. My video card is a Radeon 4870 1GB, and I have ZERO lag, ZERO issues with the legacy client...ever.

If you are experiencing issues with the client, I am willing to bet that the problem is something specific to your machine, or your connection most likely.

 

[pacific lily]

One thing that we've learned from UOKR world art creation is that we have to make 3D art from a 2D art perspective. This isn't as easy as this sounds. You see, modern game artists are used to doing things to scale with the world environment. For example, if they wanted to make a brick wall, you would want to make sure that the bricks in the texture are sized correctly in relationship to the player. This is because in more modern 3D games, not scaling things properly makes them look ... well, stupid. But when you are creating 2D art, you paint them so that the texture can be interpreted correctly, not so that it's necessarily to scale. There's also the disconnect between things looking correct in 3D, and once they've been rendered out in the UO perspective, they look odd due to UO's military orthographic perspective. So the result is that you end up having to make some things look "wrong" in 3D so that they look "right" in an orthographic perspective.


... oh, that's where I left my can of worms. I wonder what's inside???

-GO

All the more reason to scrap the 2D client altogether and make this content-rich game a full 3D game without the boring constraints put on it by trying to make it work alongside the legacy client. Oh i know... your average user is on dialup and using a 10 year old machine. Yeah yeah... I get it. At least now it's extremely clear that no true 3D is even near the pipe let alone in it. Good to know.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

All the more reason to scrap the 2D client altogether and make this content-rich game a full 3D game without the boring constraints put on it by trying to make it work alongside the legacy client.

You might as well pull the plugs on the servers if you do that. Well more than half the paying customers of Ultima Online use the legacy client, and I dare say that many...like myself...would cancel all of their accounts and never look back if EA/Mythic took this route.

The better solution, if you want a game with fancy 3d graphics, is to go and play something else. Preferably UO:2, but that doesn't exist ... yet.

 

[pacific lily]

All the more reason to scrap the 2D client altogether and make this content-rich game a full 3D game without the boring constraints put on it by trying to make it work alongside the legacy client.

You might as well pull the plugs on the servers if you do that. Well more than half the paying customers of Ultima Online use the legacy client, and I dare say that many...like myself...would cancel all of their accounts and never look back if EA/Mythic took this route.

The better solution, if you want a game with fancy 3d graphics, is to go and play something else. Preferably UO:2, but that doesn't exist ... yet.

Nice job taking my comment out of context.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Nice job taking my comment out of context.

Was there a reason I should have quote the parts that were not relevant to my point?

I didn't mean to mis-quote you, if you would like, I can go and edit to include the entire post, it was just that at that particular break (the . ) it seemed like you moved to a new point.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

While I can see a reason to kepp the 2d client active (netbooks mainly), the response of if you want a game with fancy 3d graphics, is to go and play something else does nothing but keep UO in the "oh, that old game" status and does NOTHING to even give the attempt to advance the client technologically.

There are issues with the 2d client that go beyond "fancy graphics" which is one of the reasons why the client/server structure is so helpful... they can UPDATE THEM, sometimes with new hardware for the servers, sometimes with new client packages.

Also, "fancy graphics" and the deep gameplay we love in UO are NOT and never have been mutually exclusive, people just want to think they are.

 

[Saphireena]

Okey dokey. Now I got the stairs and coins done:

The stairs were pretty straightforward requiring little thought or planning, just basically evening out the pixels to mesh together softer. The item has odd corners but I'm assuming it's to support the tiling better. If one zooms into Zym's stairs, one can see that mainly the seams were fixed and the marble mush left unpolished. I on the other hand polished everything. Is the difference very significant? Not really. So this is a case where cutting corners could work. We also do this at work that if a game needs to be scaled+polished on a tight deadline, we just fix the edges and more prominent details and leave the middle parts alone.

The gold coins were more challenging though. I could either go with making it a pile of coins which looks like they've been poured onto a table (which I assume the original is meant to potray) or make them into neatly stacked piles. Trying to make a jumble of coins proved to be very challenging so I after experimenting with the stacks, I decided that's the way to go. It looks harmonic, yet doesn't break the original feel of the pile too badly.

 

[JC the Builder]

How can it take 1 hour and 10 minutes for a couple blocks and a texture? I can understand an intricate design like the coins or armoire. A stair piece like that should take 20 minutes at most. It is a basic geometric shape. Maybe you put a little too much detail in something which is going to be hardly noticeable.

Also once you have the texture done for something like that, all you have to do is the outline on future ones.

 

[Saphireena]

How can it take 1 hour and 10 minutes for a couple blocks and a texture? I can understand an intricate design like the coins or armoire. A stair piece like that should take 20 minutes at most. It is a basic geometric shape. Maybe you put a little too much detail in something which is going to be hardly noticeable.

Also once you have the texture done for something like that, all you have to do is the outline on future ones.

My fingers can only click-click-click so fast. And if I'm clickety-clicking over pretty much the whole graphic to even out the pixels, it takes time. How about you try it and see for yourself. Post the results and time here while you're at it.

 

[HD2300]

I just did a quicken sharpen on them.

Pretty much you could write some sort of macro to just go through all graphic assets and double the size and sharpen. Then for the more important graphics you do it manually which would look heaps better.

 

[JC the Builder]

My fingers can only click-click-click so fast. And if I'm clickety-clicking over pretty much the whole graphic to even out the pixels, it takes time. How about you try it and see for yourself. Post the results and time here while you're at it.

I don't do much art. However I would assume the process would be to delete everything except the outline, blow up the figure to the appropriate size, straighten the lines and then fill with texture. While it may be a good idea to do that process you mentioned on more complex pieces, recreating simple ones like steps either from outline or scratch would be a lot quicker.

 

[Saphireena]

I don't do much art. However I would assume the process would be to delete everything except the outline, blow up the figure to the appropriate size, straighten the lines and then fill with texture. While it may be a good idea to do that process you mentioned on more complex pieces, recreating simple ones like steps either from outline or scratch would be a lot quicker.

You're not considering the fact that the stairs need to match other pieces it's supposed to sit beside. So if one were to do it from scratch, there would be the whole process of trying to make the "texture" work with all the other stair pieces as well.

Where as in my system (which stays true to each little detail as closely as possible) there is absolutely no risk whatsoever and it is self evident that all the pieces will match if done in the same way.

Also the aim of this rescale project has been to retain the pieces of world - pieces of people's virtual homes, virtual decorations - as close to the original as possible as not to disrupt the player's game experience in any way. By disrupt I mean that what if a player has chosen a certain element as part of their decoration because a little detail in the "texture", when matched up with an item placed on top, gives the illusion of being something else? Tons of people like to play around with this kind of stuff. Who am I to play god and decide to just "make it from scratch" and rearrange how all the pixels are placed?

So with the above considered, and with the assumption that yes indeed, the asset needs to be manually clicked over with precision and care, how long would it take you? And if you are not such an art person, I find it pretty surprising that you're making guesses based on anything else except experience of doing the actual thing.

And am I being a tad self defensive against your particular message versus other commentators? Hell yeah, if there has been one person out there who rushes in to criticize the things I do here on the forums, it's you.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

...

While I can see a reason to kepp the 2d client active (netbooks mainly), the response of if you want a game with fancy 3d graphics, is to go and play something else does nothing but keep UO in the "oh, that old game" status and does NOTHING to even give the attempt to advance the client technologically.

There are issues with the 2d client that go beyond "fancy graphics" which is one of the reasons why the client/server structure is so helpful... they can UPDATE THEM, sometimes with new hardware for the servers, sometimes with new client packages.

Also, "fancy graphics" and the deep gameplay we love in UO are NOT and never have been mutually exclusive, people just want to think they are.

Now who is taking who out of context? If you go back and read the few posts I have contributed to this thread, my point is that UO should remain 2D, and that they should just go ahead and do a UO:2.

The people that play UO for the gameplay do so because of the gameplay. It doesn't have anything to do with the graphics...and vice versa. There are plenty of games out there that have wonderful graphics, but are horrible to play.

I understand that the aspiration to have better graphics does not mean that gameplay would be, or has to be, sacrificed. Far from it. But the fact that UO is a 12 year old game...that is going to do an awful lot to hamper the devs from doing what really needs to be done with the graphics...and that is a complete re-do. 3d, EC, and to lesser extent...KR, have all been created to try and run simultaneously with the 2d client. That, in and of itself, is a limiting factor. The same world running 2 clients? By its very nature, limits are in place. But what some people do not seem to understand is that UO, Ultima Online, IS the game that was launched in 1997...not the expansion that launched this year. These so-called 3d clients are, and have always been, a half-baked hybrid meant to try and breathe life into a game that his lived well beyond its prime.

The solution... UO:2. Not the UO:2 that was talked up a while back, but a brand new UO that is fully 3d out of the gate...probably 1st person perspective, with modern code, a new world map, etc. etc. There is no real way around it. If EA kills the original client, most of the players will quit. The only way they will bring UO into a fully 3d existence is to kill the original client. It's a paradox. Their hands are tied. The only real solution is to abandon the idea of UO in 3d, and either update the 2d client using art like you are seeing in this thread...or, simply allow the game to die while concentrating efforts on a true sequel rather than an expansion.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I don't do much art. However I would assume the process would be to delete everything except the outline, blow up the figure to the appropriate size, straighten the lines and then fill with texture. While it may be a good idea to do that process you mentioned on more complex pieces, recreating simple ones like steps either from outline or scratch would be a lot quicker.

I am certainly no graphic artist JC, but I believe that what you are describing is the way things work when you are dealing with polygons. 3d images. 2d images, like the sprites in UO technically are textures themselves. Maybe someone else out there can explain it better than I can, but you can't really 'texture' a sprite I don't think. I could be wrong, I mostly know hardware and networking.

 

[JC the Builder]

I'm just trying to say that the process for recreating a simple piece such as the sandstone steps should be able to go a lot faster than taking one hour.

I am definitely not an artist, but I can envision the process of touching up UO art in a higher resolution. There are different methods to achieve the same result. Your method would only finish ~7 pieces of sandstone in one work day. I think recreating most of the pieces and using a general sandstone texture could do 2 dozen or more in the same amount of time.

I am certainly no graphic artist JC, but I believe that what you are describing is the way things work when you are dealing with polygons. 3d images. 2d images, like the sprites in UO technically are textures themselves. Maybe someone else out there can explain it better than I can, but you can't really 'texture' a sprite I don't think. I could be wrong, I mostly know hardware and networking.

I think they call textures brushes in photoshop. You can make a design and then paint it onto an object. For example you could make a wood grain pattern. But in this case it would be a sandstone pattern.

In a perfect world UO would have a 25 man art team who can spend hours recreating a sandstone step. But UO doesn't have that kind of resources. There are 16,000+ pieces of artwork that would need to be touched up. Finding the most efficient process is important.

 

[Crysta]

I just did a quicken sharpen on them.

Pretty much you could write some sort of macro to just go through all graphic assets and double the size and sharpen. Then for the more important graphics you do it manually which would look heaps better.

That looks bloody terrible.

 

[AtlanteanAngel]

Imagine if some terrible evil (eg. the Guardian, Electronic Arts, etc) put an inescapable curse over all the lands of UO, and everyone's clients (Legacy & Stygian Abyss both) patched over with these graphic files. Everyone's eyes would be uncontrollably tear-ing within minutes of gameplay.

That looks bloody terrible.

 

[Stranger]

I on the other hand polished everything.

This is why I love you!

It may not be very significant to everyone else but I can see the true beauty of your silky smooth stairs!

In my opinion, the ideal solution would be to do them Zym's way to save time and concentrate on the tiles that really need to be polished. Then, after everything else is polished go back and polish up the stairs

I don't want a half-assed double resolution UO! If your gonna do it, do it right!

I love love love your gold coins! You are incredible!

It takes her 1 hour and 10 minutes because she is amazingly talented and does everything the right way. With hard work and dedication! She doesn't cut corners or take shortcuts. Every game would look so much better if the artists weren't forced to make deadlines and rushed to push out artwork.

The pictures posted by HD2300 look absolutely horrible! Did you save them with low quality? Because I see blurring and a weird greenish color around the edges. You wouldn't be able to put them in the game like that! The transparency wouldn't work correctly!

 

[Zym Dragon]

After seeing the comparisons, I can see I may have taken the task a bit too literally. I didn't allow myself to take any liberties with the art, since I was in the mindset of enhancing the art in front of me rather than redrawing it. All I did was use the eye dropper and the brush to smooth out the edges and not leave any 4x4 blocks of color where possible. After a while I noticed that "z" pattern emerging. It worked for the most part, but I had to be careful of the direction of the lines or it would look bad at 100%. It saved me some time because I could create a mask to copy/paste from, then shift the colors one pixel in a direction.

After seeing Saph's versions (omg, those coins are gorgeous!), it made me want to go back and redo everything, so I touched up the onions and tweaked the torch. I also completed the armorie tonight. I still tried to use the same colors in the same places, but I deviated from that a bit with the edges, to make sure they looked right.

Armorie: 1 hour, 15 minutes
Torch: add another 2 minutes
Onions: add another 6 minutes

It's definitely interesting to see the different approaches. I hope more people join in the fun!

 

[Stranger]

I think JC is talking about doing something like this.

I was unable to draw a proper sandstone pattern that connects properly without looking "squarish" when repeated so I just used a simple checkered pattern.

I did NOT do all of this myself I used Saphireena's stairs outline.
This is just being shown as an example!

I do not know if this would actually look good with a real sandstone texture, or if it would even connect properly with the other stair tiles (I am guessing a big fat NO!), but I do know it wouldn't be staying completely true to the original artwork!

 

[Saphireena]

i'd like to see an upp'd paperdoll too.

I actually upscaled the paperdolls way way back when I first started making these. You can find them here:

Male and Female paperdolls "naked"

Animation of female mage dressed bit by bit

And while we're on the subject of avatars, may I just express how saddened I am by the drastic change my precious Saphireena went through with the various client versions?

An avatar should be as neutral as possible to allow the user to shape it's personality in any desired direction. Especially so in a roleplaying game such as UO. Even though the classic avatar is a little "off", it succeeds in doing the above task very well and I've felt that all my characters had their own personalities. For instance Saphireena is a gentle, pure, girlish, innocent, no-nonsense type of gal. Where as my mage (in the above link) is a bit of vixen. By dressing the characters in completely different ways, I can attain the "feel" of their personality.

However, once the UOKR paperdoll came around, Saphireena had suddenly converted into a big bosomed mama who likes to go around showing off a hulk stance to anyone she meets. She'd also lost the girlish soft cheeks and confident spunky expression, and instead looked like she wasn't quite sure what the date or time was. Her petite top which used to show off her girlish arms, had suddenly sprouted long sleeves and the skin of her feet had tanned to a dark brown.

The client was not the only thing which had been "enhanced" when she went through a makeover again , gaining a corset which shoved her boobies up so high that she had troubles breathing. Any signs of innocence and purity were long gone, for now her signature expression promised very naughty things to anyone who happened to look her way. You can almost hear her thinking "Hey baby... wanna a tour of my castle?" Not that a gentleman caller would get very far, seeing how tight her skirt had suddenly become. Her shirt had a new modern polo style to it - none of that old Renaissance crap anymore. Also, her necklace had miraculously morphed into a string of very rigid, deformed pearls which seemed to gravitate towards her left breast. And long gone were her silvery little locks which used to jut out from under her fluffy cap in such an endearing, girlish way.

...

...

...

 

[HD2300]

Imagine if some terrible evil (eg. the Guardian, Electronic Arts, etc) put an inescapable curse over all the lands of UO, and everyone's clients (Legacy & Stygian Abyss both) patched over with these graphic files. Everyone's eyes would be uncontrollably tear-ing within minutes of gameplay.

I recall a certain client that took 2 years to develop where almost everyone was saying the same thing.

 

[Heartseeker]

I on the other hand polished everything.

This is why I love you!

It may not be very significant to everyone else but I can see the true beauty of your silky smooth stairs!

In my opinion, the ideal solution would be to do them Zym's way to save time and concentrate on the tiles that really need to be polished. Then, after everything else is polished go back and polish up the stairs

I don't want a half-assed double resolution UO! If your gonna do it, do it right!

I love love love your gold coins! You are incredible!

It takes her 1 hour and 10 minutes because she is amazingly talented and does everything the right way. With hard work and dedication! She doesn't cut corners or take shortcuts. Every game would look so much better if the artists weren't forced to make deadlines and rushed to push out artwork.

The pictures posted by HD2300 look absolutely horrible! Did you save them with low quality? Because I see blurring and a weird greenish color around the edges. You wouldn't be able to put them in the game like that! The transparency wouldn't work correctly!

You might want to change your handle from "Stranger" to "Stalker."

 

[Stranger]