Why don't they just make 2d in hi-res?

[Sergul'zan_SP]

Why don't we just not mess with the client?

3D - FAIL
KR - FAIL.
SA - Potential success...we shall see.

I would guess that most people playing UO today are those same people who played UO ages ago. UO is just not one of those games that is going to draw large numbers of people regardless of what they do. The gameplay is way too broken and the response on broken game systems is entirely too slow.

This is not a criticism of the dev team, but a criticism of the upper management at Electronic Arts. You cannot continue to manage Ultima Online like this and have it draw new people.

Spend a year agressively locating and fixing all the bugs, cleaning up the server code, and reconstruction/repairing all of the systems that are so severely broken. *THEN* you can start releasing new content to draw new players.

Most "new" players that come during an expansion (self included) are just old players returning to check things out. Once they see nothing has changed in the way the game is managed, they dissappear for another year.

Are those old players coming back bad? Most certainly not unless you have to read their posts on stratics. Is a new client or latest expansion going to draw them back permanently? Nope. Balanced and quality gameplay is the only thing that will do that.

Let it be.

 

[Splup]

Would be great, thou I don't see it happening.

They are focusing on EC client, and 2D stays the same... Thou they could give us atleast bigger playscreen.

But I agree with some that getting rid of cheats (speedhack, fieldhack etc.) and scripting should be the main concern. When these are fixed focus on the eye candy.

 

[Supreem]

Interesting bit of trivia: There are over 16,000 pieces of tileart in the current game.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

And at least 2 items of tileart retained their KR artwork in EC I've found.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Interesting bit of trivia: There are over 16,000 pieces of tileart in the current game.

True... but they were created once. It certainly isn't beyond possibility that they could be re-created.

And, frankly, it needs to be done in some certain instances anyway because artists who were tasked with doing certain things failed to do them properly in the context of the game's art system anyway. This stands true both for iconic/tile artwork as well as avatar artwork.

It would be nice if a cohesive pass was given to the game that 1) brought the artwork into line with the game's possibilities and development style, 2) brought the artwork up to a higher resolution, and 3) improved upon the systems already in place.

For instance, some time back, I detailed a way to add precision object placement based on an X, Y, and Z coordinate (yes, it would increase information stored about each object, but in this day and age that shouldn't be too bad given that they could all three be passed as an integer and that a Z coordinate already exists) above and beyond the X and Y of the tile they're in. In essence, the object is placed at a bottom center position in each tile, based on how it is expected to be raised, and may be raised a limited number on the Z axis (as is presently the case, but the improvement pass would make the behavior of all art tiles more predictable). The X coordinate would again be a limited number (say 15) that ran along the X or E/W axis which would move it along that axis and the Y would do similarly along the N/S axis. This would all be handled in the client rendering of a object so only the X, Y, and Z would be passed, but it would allow for much greater precision in placing an object.

Would it be some work? Certainly the update of items and the correct initial position would, but then the "decoration" tool could be updated to handle X, Y, and Z movements instead of Z.

In short, what I'm saying is that while it would be a decent amount of work, it's not insurmountable, nor is it beyond potential expectation that for UO to continue to be viable. In fact, by doing so, you might (along with gameplay enhancements and cleaning up bugs and systems that overlap -- ie: quests) actually create a game that could grow again.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

but they were created once.

Twice, just FYI

 

[Viquire]

Interesting bit of trivia: There are over 16,000 pieces of tileart in the current game.

HE LIVES!

and, is that all. We should probably do something about that.
*quickly checks to make sure GO is not standing behind with a heavy blunt object raised in a menacing fashion*

 

[LadyNico]

Interesting bit of trivia: There are over 16,000 pieces of tileart in the current game.

Only 16,000? Pfft! Saph's already done a bunch, and Crysta, too, might be persuaded.

Touched & thrilled to hear from you today, Supreem. Thank you. I'm guessing you've long since reverted from Pink Dreadhorn back to usual form...

 

[Viquire]

Only 16,000? Pfft! Saph's already done a bunch, and Crysta, too, might be persuaded.

Touched & thrilled to hear from you today, Supreem. Thank you. I'm guessing you've long since reverted from Pink Dreadhorn back to usual form...

He was a purple vorpal bunny leaving enormous trails of essence in his wake the last day of SA beta. I'd never picked up bunny pellets of that magnitude before but I was happy to have them to test crafting.

 

[FishinFool]

Interesting bit of trivia: There are over 16,000 pieces of tileart in the current game.

Yes and if you had started redrawing them 8 years ago it would've been done 7.5 years ago and you would have a professional looking game.

Instead, millions have been wasted on 4 clients that can't do a better job than the original.

 

[canary]

Yes and if you had started redrawing them 8 years ago it would've been done 7.5 years ago and you would have a professional looking game.

Instead, millions have been wasted on 4 clients that can't do a better job than the original.

QFT.

 

[Ferrut]

Hmmm... hmm... I just found this article in Gamasutra, published last month:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25703

Tim Cotten: "UO, in many ways, we want to improve the original art. It was built for a 640 x 480 window. Stylistically, it is beautiful, but it's very low res. There's nothing wrong with us taking that low res art, paying homage to it correctly, and actually building high res versions of it. Not throwing a bunch of 3D models in it, but actually getting some great artists, putting that together, and of course we'd like to explore that."

I wonder if it would be worth pursuing more experimentations with these upscales after all...?

I have to admit that when I originally read that quote from Draconi I immediately thought of the esteemed Saphireena...

I would also like to express the same opinion as Lady Nico, whilst adding :

 

[Saphireena]

Interesting bit of trivia: There are over 16,000 pieces of tileart in the current game.

Welcome to the debate Supreem . 16K? My first reaction was a huge *gulp*. But then I got I got my calculator out and here's what I came up with:

If one were to divide those 16 000 assets into roughly 3 categories:

- 8000 small and easy assets which take 1 hour each to polish x (8hrs in a day) = 1000 working days
- 7000 big and hard assets which demand 1 working day each (8 hours) = 7000 working days
- 1000 copied assets which are merely recolored versions of other assets. (These don't count since it's just a matter of changing their palette from a freshly polished asset)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
= 8000 working days

One year has around 242 working days if we include some vacation.

Conclusion:
- For 1 person to finish all the assets alone it would take 33 years.
- For 20 people to finish all the assets it would take 1,6 years.

Now this is assuming the people would do a top notch job. A "passable" job can probably be done in half that time. (outsourcing)

The only problem left then, is where the heck to find 20 skilled pixel artists who would be interested in the job. Polishing someone else's pixels is not the most inspirational work to most pixel artists who would rather innovate and create than "clean up" someone else's mess. So you need to really have a genuine love for Ultima to be motivated to take on this task. (Or else be a newbie artist trying to break into the industry who will put up with just any work they can get their hands on - or outsourcing is another option, but with that you will most likely compromise the quality)

PS: If anyone sees anything wacky about my calculations, please say so.

 

[Sabbath]

- For 20 people to finish all the assets it would take 1,6 years.

Hi Saph... I think you meant 1.6 years as in a year and a half? Wow to think that could have been accomplished several times over by now...

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Hmmm... not really saying the calculations are "wacky", but they did the KR artwork (again doing every single tileart piece as well as textures, models, etc) in what... 2 years or so?

So while I don't have the exact timeframe or number of people involved, I'm certain it didn't take a single person 33 years, and I'm not sure if they had as many as 20 working on it, and they went beyond the tileart and did EVERYTHING.

 

[Zym Dragon]

...The only problem left then, is where the heck to find 20 skilled pixel artists who would be interested in the job. Polishing someone else's pixels is not the most inspirational work to most pixel artists who would rather innovate and create than "clean up" someone else's mess. So you need to really have a genuine love for Ultima to be motivated to take on this task. (Or else be a newbie artist trying to break into the industry who will put up with just any work they can get their hands on - or outsourcing is another option, but with that you will most likely compromise the quality)...

I'll sign up!

 

[Sir_Bolo]

If anyone sees anything wacky about my calculations, please say so.

The calculation makes sense, but does it include the animations as well?
I'm not sure that 16,000 pieces of tileart is sufficient to account for all of the animation frames... According to a post by TheGrimmOmen, there are over 1 Million frames of animation in UOSA. Even taking into account the lower frame rate of the 2D client, there must still be hundreds of thousands of frames in 2D.

 

[FishinFool]

Not to dispute you numbers, just the time.

A pretty hefty portion of the tiles in the game are landscape and wall tiles, those wouldn't require as much work.. imo. If you follow, you could take a 40x40 tile and simply duplicate it as many times as required - do touch up work and move on.

Point I'm trying to make is that there is alot in there that wouldn't require as much as say the animated tiles or the character models.

 

[olduofan]

Interesting bit of trivia: There are over 16,000 pieces of tileart in the current game.

nice to see ya here hope to others as well

 

[Sabbath]

How far fetched would it be for Mythic to allow submissions of samples from players who, if they show the proper skill, could "volunteer" for a project to clean up all the tile art as Saph suggests?

Only the people who demonstrate the requisite ability would be accepted but I suspect they could have potentially dozens of qualified volunteers.

Similar to the several projects that are reconstructing the old Ultima games using modern game engines everyone would agree to volunteer their time and effort with no compensation other than a listing in the credits.

We've already got one volunteer in Zym Dragon and I'm going out on a limb and volunteering Saphireena!

 

[Saphireena]

I have no idea Sir Bolo. I'm assuming that when Supreem says 16K, that means 16K period for all 2D assets. Which would then mean it includes the animation frames.

However what needs to be remembered also, is that in a lot of cases assets are mirrored. For instance in many pieces of furniture and also in critters.

But to be fair, there are some which have a unique look from every direction, but I assume those are in the minority.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

After the Counselor program, very doubtful that anything involving "volunteer work" will be done outside from the various smaller contests.

I think the thing is, as it stands right now, there's no need to completely "re-invent" everything again. They have a set of high resolution artwork they COULD use. Just tweak about 15 to 20% of that artwork to make it more comparable with the original artwork in style, then polish the rest a tad and done.

 

[Zodia]

But to be fair, there are some which have a unique look from every direction, but I assume those are in the minority.

Yeah, I think his point was that 16k is A LOT of artwork to "update".

And that it would take alot of time...

But it's really not when you consider the time given to the huge failures that are KR and the EC/SA. Both of those took years... plenty of time to update 16k tiles for even a small staff.

The problem is it takes a will, a belief, a direction by a high up designer/producer to say "let's do it!"

Everything else is just details.

 

[Sir_Bolo]

I have no idea Sir Bolo. I'm assuming that when Supreem says 16K, that means 16K period for all 2D assets. Which would then mean it includes the animation frames.

Hmmm.... there are around 180 creatures in UO (not counting rehued or resized versions of preexisting creatures).
Even with mirroring, each creatures needs to be rendered at least in 5 different directions.
The walking animation has 10 frames (I checked the animated GIFs in the Stratics Hunter's Guide)
Every creatures has at least a walking and an attack animation, and probably some more (idle, dying, flying, getting hit). Let's pretend they have only 2 animations.
Just for creatures, we get 180*5*10*2=18,000 different frames of animation.
And I haven't even considered all of the wearables, each of which has its own full set of animations (and character animations are many more than creature animations).
I'm afraid that 16,000 assets for the entire client is way underestimated. I think it's only tile, item and gump art.

Correction: some creature animations only have 5 frames instead of 10. Even then, 16,000 assets for all frames of animation seems a bit tight, but I might be wrong.

 

[pacific lily]

Welcome to the debate Supreem . 16K? My first reaction was a huge *gulp*. But then I got I got my calculator out and here's what I came up with:

If one were to divide those 16 000 assets into roughly 3 categories:

- 8000 small and easy assets which take 1 hour each to polish x (8hrs in a day) = 1000 working days
- 7000 big and hard assets which demand 1 working day each (8 hours) = 7000 working days
- 1000 copied assets which are merely recolored versions of other assets. (These don't count since it's just a matter of changing their palette from a freshly polished asset)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
= 8000 working days

One year has around 242 working days if we include some vacation.

Conclusion:
- For 1 person to finish all the assets alone it would take 33 years.
- For 20 people to finish all the assets it would take 1,6 years.

Now this is assuming the people would do a top notch job. A "passable" job can probably be done in half that time. (outsourcing)

The only problem left then, is where the heck to find 20 skilled pixel artists who would be interested in the job. Polishing someone else's pixels is not the most inspirational work to most pixel artists who would rather innovate and create than "clean up" someone else's mess. So you need to really have a genuine love for Ultima to be motivated to take on this task. (Or else be a newbie artist trying to break into the industry who will put up with just any work they can get their hands on - or outsourcing is another option, but with that you will most likely compromise the quality)

PS: If anyone sees anything wacky about my calculations, please say so.

An hour for a small piece? 7000 pieces that would take a whole day each? I think you are overestimating the amount of "genuine love for Ultima" someone needs. Talent and skill are more like it. Add that to a full understanding of what the end result should look like and you can cut those times down to 25% of what you have.

Lily

 

[Viquire]

On the plus side a volunteer wit ha deep love for UO might actually be able to create a back and a left side for Magincian thrones.

Actually the largest parts of the problem for both KR and especially the EC were equipables and scaling positioning against the avatar on the screen.

 

[Saphireena]

An hour for a small piece? 7000 pieces that would take a whole day each? I think you are overestimating the amount of "genuine love for Ultima" someone needs. Talent and skill are more like it. Add that to a full understanding of what the end result should look like and you can cut those times down to 25% of what you have.

Well those estimations were just based on how long it takes me to make something when the aim is to make it pixel perfect. That's all I can do really, since I have no idea how it long it takes other artists to do the same thing. However it's realistic to assume that surely there are many artists out in the world that work at a faster pace, which makes the whole idea even less impossible to accomplish. So good news in that respect.

I decided to put myself to the test to see what could be done if I had 1 hour of time to polish an asset which wasn't one of the smaller ones. I chose one of the bull frames from my example above:

As a quick and dirty version it's ok, but I wouldn't be happy to put it into the client yet. Not without adding some detail and texture to avoid the plastic look.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

The only thing about doing mobiles is that they are high polygon count 3d renders that are "screencapped" into the various frames of animation, then ported into the two clients appropriately. The mobiles in the new client were very high resolution during KR and closed beta days of EC and were then downgraded in resolution considerably in EC.

So other than a personal exercise, that's one aspect that wouldn't be done pixel by pixel.

Other than that, the bull frame is well done.

 

[pacific lily]

Well those estimations were just based on how long it takes me to make something when the aim is to make it pixel perfect. That's all I can do really, since I have no idea how it long it takes other artists to do the same thing. However it's realistic to assume that surely there are many artists out in the world that work at a faster pace, which makes the whole idea even less impossible to accomplish. So good news in that respect.

I decided to put myself to the test to see what could be done if I had 1 hour of time to polish an asset which wasn't one of the smaller ones. I chose one of the bull frames from my example above:

As a quick and dirty version it's ok, but I wouldn't be happy to put it into the client yet. Not without adding some detail and texture to avoid the plastic look.

I know, that's why I commented. I'm on the faster end compared to most artists I know so somewhere between yours and mine is probably the accurate answer. And like you mentioned (or maybe it was someone else), not all pieces of the same size will need the same amount of work. I was looking the other day at the "dried onions" fully zoomed in on the SA client. I couldn't figure out what it was until I zoomed out. That would actually require a full redraw, I think, where something like a relatively solid wall tile would probably take far less time even though it's larger.

I understand your need to perfect... At some point though, you have to stop working. You can't edit forever! I think if your cow was in the context of corrected backgrounds and other corrected objects, I think you'd find that it doesn't need much more work. (though personally I can't stand the black outline) Things just really need to be recognizable in the new client OR in a version of the old client that has a game window larger than 800x600.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Not to offend Saph, but while she's clearly skilled in updating existing artwork via pixels and such, to presume that just because it would take her an hour to do something does not follow logically that it would take everyone an hour to do something. There are some highly talented artists that do things in amazingly short amounts of time and yet look far better than one would expect for the amount of time put into it.

I also believe it could be done in less than a year's time, even with 16,000+ assets to work with. Once someone's in the flow of doing something, it doesn't always take so long. There's also the question of speed and motivation. Paychecks are strong motivators.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I'm not going to take anything away from her either... I'm doing graphical work as well on my Copper_Enhanced skin right now (on the status window), and even small changes can take a while... also helps to have Zym on ICQ going back and forth to tweak and smooth out the details. A second person checking out the work can go a LONG way in polishing things. A smoothly working team can produce some great results.

 

[LadyNico]

There's also the element of "ya gets whats ya pays for."

Given a choice (granted that I am not even in this hypothetical scenario), why on earth would I settle for an acceptable job when an excellent job is completely possible?

@ pacific lily, it's no secret I'm an advocate of remaining true to the original UO artists, and this extends even to the black outline. That said, I'd love to see your version of the polished bull, or any other item which strikes your fancy.

 

[Fink]

Conclusion:
- For 1 person to finish all the assets alone it would take 33 years.
- For 20 people to finish all the assets it would take 1,6 years.

PS: If anyone sees anything wacky about my calculations, please say so.

Add to that there would be QA, art direction, redraws, team focus meetings, documentation, workflow co-ordination, and all the other seemingly arbitrary administrative nonsense that boggles the creative mind and goes hand in hand with being on an art team.

The only problem left then, is where the heck to find 20 skilled pixel artists who would be interested in the job. Polishing someone else's pixels is not the most inspirational work to most pixel artists who would rather innovate and create than "clean up" someone else's mess.

I've been beating that drum every time this "hi res classic" topic comes up, nobody gets it. You can't just throw money or time at it and expect the talent to suddenly materialise. You would need to hand-pick a very specialised outfit versed in a narrow discipline (in games, at least) and pray they all mesh as a team and have a compatible creative vision and execution of style. You can't just magically dupe Saphireena like so many val hammers and expect wonders.

 

[LadyNico]

Wise words, and practical ones, too, Fink. And yet, with the magic of outsourcing, I can't help but wonder what might be achieved.

I fully accept it's completely selfish of me to crave the beauty in all those old much loved pixels even at the expense of those who would prefer to leave them far behind.

It neither hurts anyone nor costs anything for me to continue to dream of all I wish UO could be.

 

[Krrom]

I find this entire discussion just a little off base. Now I am not a newb at the game as I have been playing on and off since it actually launched. The 2d graphics have a huge following, EC has some very nice features...discuss.

My point is this: Why would a corporation (they are still in the business to make a profit...at least until we become fully socialist 2010?) sink a sizeable amount of capital into a 12 year old product which would bring in maybe 10 new players?

There are many many intelligent people playing this game but I am not sure how many have a good grip on reality. UO will continue to have about the same player base as it does now without a drastic change to the graphics system. This game is far deeper that WoW and much more fun to play but it needs to get into this century or it will continue to creep along or one day may actually finally take its last breath.

I still can't believe someone if not EA has not copied the basic structure of the game and incorporated them into a modern graphics engine. They keep coming up with completely new games WAR, D&D Online, LoTR, etc. that completely fail at gameplay when they are sitting on the perfect base game structure trapped within a 12 year old body. We need the new UO game that doesnt change any of the good stuff. Putting lipstick on the 12 year old pig isnt going to change much in the long run.

 

[Saphireena]

Thanks for all the feedback on those time estimates. The more opinions we hear on how long it would take, the better. This way people will be left with a more realistic view of just how possible (or impossible) this type of thing might be, versus merely remembering the numbers I talked about. I think we'd all love to hear more.

Although it's a tad embarrassing that it seems like I'm the slow poke around here *blush*, it still delights me as a UO lover and eternal fan of the legacy art, to hear that it might actually be a faster task than first assumed. Hearing the estimates you people described actually planted a little tingle of hope inside. Until now I've always dismissed this dream as an utter impossibility. But perhaps this is feasible after all? Not that we have any power over this mind you. But it's a step in the right direction.

I'd like to suggest a little assignment for all of the artists here who know how to make pixel art and are passionate enough about the idea of a rescale to help me gather data on how long it takes to make these things.

I've put together a little set of assets that we could all work on by ourselves. No time limits, instead document the time it took you to polish the image to the very best of your ability. If we all work on the same assets, it will give a more objective outcome.

- Use only the colors found in the original asset
- Stay as true to the original shape as possible
- No dodge, smudge, brush, burn etc. Only clean pixel art.
- Write down how many hours/days were used - and be truthful! This is not a competition, it's meant to show EA the real time it would take to make this kind of thing.
- No hurry to make these. You might start tonight and continue in a week. The main thing is documenting the final time in total that it took.
- No pressure to make all of the assets. Even getting the time estimate of 1 helps!
- Post the results here for us to see how you see the upscaled version. For every one of us they will look slightly different as we make decisions on how to place the pixels.

Download the assets from here:
http://www.andrea.net/pics/uo_classics_original_size.png
http://www.andrea.net/pics/uo_classics_double_size.png
http://www.andrea.net/pics/uo large.psd

 

[Mr X]

Interesting bit of trivia: There are over 16,000 pieces of tileart in the current game.

Interesting trivia, been having lag issues to east coast servers making the game unplayable between 4pm and 11 pm central time, what is it you say you do here? Oh ya and I am not the only one so maybe someone representing EA can get off their ass and maybe send a canned ham message saying we are looking into it?

 

[Salivern_Diago]

Here's my 2cents worth... Why do we all use the 2d client? Cos we know how to use it, how it works and like how it looks...

So, Dev's... Why not make the EC look and act like classic? That way you can dump the 2d client (stopping all the scripting programs in one shot) and concentrate on the EC client and people are happy cos they got what they like!

Couple that with this 2d high res art and BINGO you got a top notch client that you SHOULD put out on the shelves!

Done, dusted and everyone happy.

 

[MalagAste]

You know what would be nice?

If they could get a group of devoted fans to fix up all the old graphics to a much higher resolution.. and when they got a complete "set" they put them into the EC.....

Ah... but wait.... too bad can't do that... some idiot sued EA over "volunteering" and destroyed the ability to of everyone to add depth to the game we all love... wasn't that nice?

We should thank them... for looking out for our "best interests"... because god forbid we should spend time working on things we love...



Sorry about that couldn't help myself...

I agree though... If they started working on it now... chances are by the next expansion.... we'd have a very wonderful looking game with high resolution and if they added Ra'Dian's suggestion... fix for the x, y thing.. it would have far fewer bugs.

*wonders off to dream about it*

 

[canary]

Well given the fact they are actively cutting jobs, I fear that ANY new art might just be a dream.

 

[Crysta]

Honestly so far as monsters and creatures are concerned, I think it would be more productive to get someone versed in 3D Studio Max to attempt to recreate the original models from the available creature frames as accurately as possible. Having those would even make new animations for those old creatures possible, as well as make further updates to the art (such as the retooling so hueing doesn't look hideous that got the pet dyes pulled as they need to bem thoug i'd rather they never come back) possible. It would take quite a bit of time to do it for each monster, but it should be faster than retouching the sprites frame by frame and would be far more consistant.

At the very least, it seems EA has the original resources for the Water Elemental, as it spawned the two SE monsters that look similar (Rai-Ju and... Kaze Kemono I think are their names?).

 

[Trevelyan]

Sooooo, when do we get this new stuff?

Instead of doing a next expansion, I say contract Saphireena to make a bunch of art.

 

[Jhym]

It IS interesting that the two image sets, side by side, show how CLEARLY we would want the one on the right.

The biggest difference is clarity and not as much gradiation in colors... which I think has been the problem in KR. The most interesting thing is that the pixel images tend to have sharply defined, black outlines of their components, while the KR graphics are duller (and smaller.)

I'd be curious if they sharpened up the KR graphics, added in more detail and made them match scale better if people would be more interested in them.

As for the scaling issue in general -- they would really have to have 3 or 4 scaled image sets - 640x400, 800x600, 1024x768, 1600x1200. Otherwise you'd have the same problem of a boatload of artwork done only to not look good at the higher resolution.

Also interesting... if they added in photorealistic imagery of some of the items, I guarantee people would scream. And yet, finding beautiful images of the items you are modelling and using them would tend to be the logical extension of increasing the resolution.

It's almost like we want a particular form of Anime in UO, that isn't THIS or THAT but we just know is UO.

 

[olduofan]

When KR was about to come out i was very excited was looking forward to playing it after about 10 mins playing it I WAS VERY LET DOWN the art was BAD on must the monsters and it was washed out blurred some of it i could live with but must of it suxed

then they came out with EC same monster art like dragons and a few others was very very bad didn even look like UO they completely missed/ lost the feel of UO. Then they put in the legacy art to try to get peeps to play it ??? why dont they just give us the art we all like and the UI will all like i for one like the 2d books how they open and containers etc the new client DOSE NOT have the same feel its to machination for lack of a better word i do like some features it has but i would rather go with out than look at the art it offers

honestly i wish they would just redo the art in 2d to high res and bigger game play window AND MOSTLY HIGHER Saphireena TO DO IT someone with a love and passion of this game that has a real TALENT ....
​

 

[Nateh8sYou]

one day when I am "Oprah rich" I will buy UO from EA and hire Saphireena to do what she wants

 

[Saphireena]

Ok I must have been nuts to suggest these rescale experimentations. Not that anyone else seems to be bothering with helping me test the time frame, which is a shame because I would really like to see if it's possible with equal results in quality. That would be the ultimate proof that such an undertaking would be reasonable and realistic. Unfortunately if slowpokes like me were to do such work, it still remains a pretty unrealistic feat.

I started off with the most challenging and demanding task: The Ultima dragon, probably the most beautiful and inspiring art asset in the whole game. Am I wrong in assuming that the Hildebrandt brothers had something to do with at least the concept art for these dragons? For those of you who don't know who the Hildebrandt brothers are, they were the ones who made that awesome painting that was shown back in the old versions of UO when you installed the game. Anyhow, I think their "touch" can be seen in this dragon. If there were to be any connection, it would certainly explain why this dragon has got to be the most beautiful, perfect dragon eva! Just look at how it holds it's head high and with pride, how it's eye glares with evil intent, how it gracefully curls it's tail, how the wings are raised up menacingly, how the nostrils are dilated with fury, how the skin is taut over a landscape of muscles, how it arches it neck... I could go on and on.

It took me three days to polish which was way over my estimate, and even now it's not perfect. Crysta is absolutely right in her suggestion on how animated figures should be done: remaking the original 3D model and making renders from that instead of rescaling and polishing. But despite this upscale of the dragon is useless in that sense, I'm still glad I did it. If for no other reason than to show my utter appreciation and awe I feel towards whoever made it in the first place. I remember being a newbie and seeing a dragon like this for the first time, how I just stood and stared, scared to death as it passed by letting out a roar, guided by it's tamer. But also heart aching with the desire to own one myself. And how long I worked on that tamer - nearly a year (yeah taming was still hard back then) and how long it took to tame that very first dragon. I spent 5 hours in Destard, dying over and over again until finally succeeding.

I decided to patch the enhanced client and check how the red dragon looks there, and took some shots of it zoomed in and out. Sorry folks, but no matter how hard the devs worked on this thing (and believe me I appreciate their efforts!), for me the "enhanced dragon" pales in comparison. I do not find it inspiring in the least. And I'll just never get used to the more top down view. It feels so much less intimate. I feel like I'm just an onlooker instead of being actually there. As for the dragon itself, I dislike how the texture glares at me with it's overexposure, how the beast huddles with it's wings folded - almost as if protecting itself from something versus the animated, arrogant, confident gait of the legacy dragon. Also the strange horns crowning the back of it's head bother me, as do the fingers which look anatomically strange, the bulky head... Why on why oh why did they change the dragon so much?

 

[MalagAste]

Oh trust me girl I completely agree about that EC dragon...

To me the old 2d dragon is the most beautiful thing... I remember how delighted I was to tame my first dragon... I remember I used to run around as much as I could just so I could delight in watching it fly... (absolutely bummed that my dragon doesn't fly anymore)

I miss watching it fly... the grace and beauty are beyond anything in the EC.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Using the EC is really an unfair comparison when zooming in considering how gimped in resolution they ended up making the EC models compared to their original KR counterparts.

It's one of the biggest step backwards the EC has taken in the name of compromise and one of the reasons why I'm now wondering if better resolution will be done for ANY client from this point forward.

I know the devs WANT a more modernized client, and I know Supreem wants to do what he can to provide it... but really there has been too much historical evidence of how this plays out. We're reaching the point of seeing the same tghing over and over again yet expecting a different result. New client gets built, new client gets released somewhere between halfway and mostly complete, something happens that significantly changes the makeup of the dev team involved, client languishes.

Now I'm not saying that UO should be 1997-based 2d client only or that the attempts should not be made. I want to see a more modernized client. I would have loved to see what the original visions for SA were in the KR client when the idea was to do things 2d could NOT do. I could even defend the KR client on that vision even if it did have its problems.

But the EC is simply not that step forward, and the loss of resolution in the models is proof of that... for now.

I want to believe that the devs can do amazing things... but right now, I've gone into a "I'll believe it when I see it happening" mode.

 

[Saphireena]

Fink: Well when I originally started to dream about the rescale Ultima, the whole idea was to use the client exactly the way it was, merely adjust code to support graphics at double dimensions. So compared to the enormous task of creating a completely new client, new assets, new risks, it was meant to avoid all that and in all simplicity be the same client as we'd always known it - just 2x bigger to support the way in which our resolutions have doubled in a decade. Then again, what do I know about coding. I assumed it would merely be a matter of search and replacing the dimensions mentioned in the code, but it's probably not that simple.

As for where to find the talent. First and foremost, there is nothing unique about me. Mobile game companies are packed with pixel artists who do this type of work on a daily basis. Heck, even EA has EA Mobile, so they actually have pixel artists working for them already. The problem is finding pixel artists who are interested in Ultima Online. Let's face it, UO is not fashionable, hot, or desirable for the majority of gifted artists out there. And for those who would take the job on, it would merely be a stepping stone into bigger and better things - it would not be coming from the heart. However thanks to these hard times, finding motivation may not be impossible after all and one could find pixel artists motivated to do a good job. Art direction would be minimal since all they would need to do is polish a completed asset. No innovation, no experimentation - merely polish. May I remind everyone that mobile game companies make 1 complete pixel art game in about 2-3 months AND scale the assets to MANY sizes in that time frame to support the various screen resolutions. I know since that's what I've been doing for years now! Of course the amount of assets in one mobile game is much less than that daunting 16 000, but certainly equal if one were to put together all the games done in a year total.

Krrom: I understand where you're coming from, but I think you underestimate the power of the pixel. I'll once again use Habbo Hotel as an example. It's a game totally based on a pixel world and has 118 million users. Then there are the Facebook games such as Farmville, which although not bitmap (but vector) have a similar style and boast 30 million DAILY users. Perhaps 3D isn't the one and only way after all? It's obvious that there are a lot of people out there who are attracted to this style. As I've said countless other times, to turn Ultima Online into yet another 3D MMO, it would only become lost in a crowd of same old, same olds. People are already tired of 3d MMOs, especially based on the Renaissance theme. Where as Ultima Online is completely unique. All it needs is a little lovin' to get with the times. Not a complete overhaul.

Salivern_Diago: One major difference between the classic and enhanced client is the perspective from which the world is viewed at. The enhanced client is from more top down than the classic.

Lastly to Trev, olduofan, Nateh8sYou and the rest who made "hire Saph" comments. Well I'm of course very flattered, but the very first thing I must say is that the artists of the UO team are surely just as talented in their own ways and fully capable of doing these rescales if that's what EA wanted. I am not any different from the thousands of gifted pixel artists out in the world who are grinding away making pixels for mobile games and what not. So as sweet as it is for you to say that, it would be much more productive to say "Hire more pixel artists!"

Secondly I live in Finland and have no possibility of moving to the states because of my kids not to mention that I love the job I have now which allows such a wide variety of game projects. First it was mobile, then a PC game and we just released the Xbox version of our old classic game called Tower Bloxx Deluxe (I was the lead artist for that project btw) and right now I'm working on a very exciting project that will be sure to knock the socks of it's competitors.

Yes, Ultima Online has a special place in my heart and will always have. Yes it would be a dream come true to help in "saving it", but you know what? If EA were to hire me, it's not like I could go waltzing in there, crack the whip and proclaim that we will start making a rescale version of UO . I would merely be one more art asset amongst the ones they have already and I highly doubt you'd see any difference in the way the game is headed.

 

[Saphireena]

Using the EC is really an unfair comparison when zooming in considering how gimped in resolution they ended up making the EC models compared to their original KR counterparts.

Please note that I made absolute no comments what so ever on the pixellation of the zoom. I think everyone understands more than well that the original 3D object is very detailed and hi-res. And we all know that if the client supported zooming into the original model, it would not look pixellated.

All of my comments were directed toward the anatomy and overall look of the dragon. It's structure, it's pose and so forth. I just thought I wouldn't need to separately state the obvious as far as the zooming pixellation goes. It was so totally not the point of the comparison!