This. Exactly.Whenever UO shuts down someday, it won't be because they added Trammel a decade-plus in the past, or because they failed to placate a couple of forum diehards. Get over yourselves.
This. Exactly.Whenever UO shuts down someday, it won't be because they added Trammel a decade-plus in the past, or because they failed to placate a couple of forum diehards. Get over yourselves.
No one's suggesting or saying trammel will be the single reason UO will shut down, if they did point it out and take it up with them rather than basically empty quoting someone.This. Exactly.
I'm one of those Darkfall players who would come to UO Classic in a heart beat. In trying to become something different games tend to warp straight forward concepts. I have yet to play a game with UO's depth of interaction that didn't force dependency on groups. Darkfall's existance should actually be read almost entirely as a pro-classic UO argument. The large number of guilds who came out at release despite core members being unable to purchase accounts (if you didn't get a pre-order you didn't have another shot at an account for over 2 weeks) and the roughly 5 months all of these classic UO era guilds battled it out in a game with no content, more bugs than UO ever had, and less over sight to manage issues shows there is a definite interest. Darkfall was a game made by PvP gamers for PvP gamers and while delivering on PvP it oddly lacked all other aspects you would expect from a game. Yet many of us continue to play because it is the only harsh world available.You think Darkfall and Mortal Online players will come to UO? Really? Why give up a game with modern 3D graphics (Yes, graphics ARE important to modern gamers, so lets not go down that inane road.) AND the style of play they like to go back in time 20 years to 90's era graphics?
I don't know how you read my last post but I realize that intentions don't matter, my point is if you want to stick with the facts we don't have a classic shard. I agree with Mograna that people waiting for this should have bailed out by now.Intentions aren't the issue here. Cal made the statement as the producer. While his reputation may not matter to most people (which isn't to say it shouldn't) he puts it on the line when he issues out a statement with a deadline to people he does business with (or hopes to do business with) being customers. Now, if Cal announces that there will be no classic shard that does not damage his reputation as long as he gives a reason for why not. However, if he doesn't stick to a deadline or just says "NO, haha!" then why shouldn't it damage it?
I wouldn't have reopened my account if it wasn't for Cal's announcement so most of your post applies to someone else. I left UO after AoS and I came back at the proposal of a classic shard to show support for the idea, whether it was in vain or not isn't what I'm debating. I haven't been actively following UO news or updates for years and won't again if this isn't happening. So saying stuff about what's been happening for years and how "you've been around this long you'll be back" doesn't apply to me because I haven't been here. If 10 years from now a new producer announces there will be a possible classic shard I doubt I'll even know about it but even if I did I wouldn't come back again after this. This is it for me I'm not one who fluctuates easily.I don't know how you read my last post but I realize that intentions don't matter, my point is if you want to stick with the facts we don't have a classic shard. I agree with Mograna that people waiting for this should have bailed out by now.
And I mean honestly the loss of the last remaining few classic shard supporters...in the grand scheme of things who gives a toss? I'm saying that as someone who does support the idea and would play on it if it did ever happen.
The thing about UO is that the people running it know you aren't going to leave, if you were going to leave you would have done it by now. I think that's become pretty evident with all of their releases since AoS, people complain constantly about all these things that need fixing but they know they won't likely ever be fixed.
Being a UO subscriber is a lot like being a beaten down dog, after a while you lose any expectation but disappointment.
If I'm wrong then I am wrong but if I were a betting man I would feel good about the odds.
It was a general statement not targeting you specifically, as to the other part of your post, I don't think trammel was the way to go but there is no doubt it prolonged the existence of UO, it would be hard to argue otherwise since the game is still around.So saying stuff about what's been happening for years and how "you've been around this long you'll be back" doesn't apply to me because I haven't been here.
Just take Darkfall that had +350000 following the game. So there is a interest for games with a gameplay like classic UO. All of those that had interest in Darkfall or Mortal Online would not play a classic UO but enough of them would. Those players would keep such a shard alive and most likely more populated then any of today UO shards.
You think Darkfall and Mortal Online players will come to UO? Really? Why give up a game with modern 3D graphics (Yes, graphics ARE important to modern gamers, so lets not go down that inane road.) AND the style of play they like to go back in time 20 years to 90's era graphics?
Modern gamers look at UO and laugh. They laugh at the ancient graphics and they laugh at the people like us addicted to playing it.
A friend of a friend asked me what I played when he heard I was a gamer. I said UO. After the stunned look wore off, he said he was surprised that it was still around. Then he asked which 3D engine they were using now. It went downhill from there.
Well said MrWilliams. Nice graphics is never wrong but in the long run it cant keep my interest up for a game. Immersive and rewarding gameplay is what keep me as a subscriber in the long run.Believe it or not, but not all gamers are looking for vacuous, eye candy. Some would like a game with meaning, player diversity, community and freedom. A game where you can actually make a difference to the shard be that positive or negative. I've played numerous MMO's and still find 2d Classic UO to be the most immersive and rewarding gaming experience.
Yes a classic shard will not attract your average mainstream gamer but that isn't its target audience and I think you vastly underestimate the size of the community that still longs for Classic UO.
Well said.I won't attempt to speak for others on why a classic shard would be wanted. I can only give my reasons for wanting it. Please keep in mind that I am one of the players that left shortly after AoS was released, and apart from a short stint a couple of years ago, I haven't played since then.
To me, AoS was a complete shift from what drew me to UO. When I started, items had a few properties (Ruin, Might, Force, Vanquish), and few people would even use these items for fear of losing them. With the advent of AoS, a whole slew of new attributes were added to items, making the game all about said items and leaving skill on the back burner. And with insurance also being introduced, there was no longer the fear of losing items at all, so players became artificially powerful just due to itemization.
My main was a blacksmith/tailor. I spent hours every day doing nothing but repairing armor and weapons, and occasionally creating new armor or a new weapon for the players that wanted it. And I wasn't alone. There was typically four or five of us always standing at the Brit forge, just waiting for customers. And they did come. With the advent of AoS, my job was taken from me. Repair deeds replaced the need for a live smith/tailor, and with insurance and powder of fortitude, replacing items was unnecessary. And even if someone did happen to lose an item, I couldn't make one that was anywhere near what they required without a lot of luck and a lot of time spent on a system ruled by the RNG. For those of you saying that the classic shard wouldn't bring about more community, you need to look no further than this to see how you're mistaken.
Basically, my time in UO (at least the production version of it) was finished once AoS became a reality. I can tell you that AoS was pretty much a slap in the face, not just for the PvPers, but to the crafter as well. While I know that people were asking for necromancers and perhaps paladins, the AoS system was never asked for by the player base, and had I been asked, I would have voted 'no'. I did manage to vote 'no' after the fact by canceling my subscription. It's a shame it had to happen, but it did.
For those of you saying you can't go backwards to move forward, I can only say that adding a classic server isn't necessarily meant as a way of moving forward. In my mind it's a way for some to backtrack to a point where the wrong path was chosen in the hopes of finding the right path.
EDIT: I can say that I have played a few other MMOs since, and nothing compared to how I felt about UO before AoS. Nothing even comes close.
Well said and i agree to the fullest with it all.I won't attempt to speak for others on why a classic shard would be wanted. I can only give my reasons for wanting it. Please keep in mind that I am one of the players that left shortly after AoS was released, and apart from a short stint a couple of years ago, I haven't played since then.
To me, AoS was a complete shift from what drew me to UO. When I started, items had a few properties (Ruin, Might, Force, Vanquish), and few people would even use these items for fear of losing them. With the advent of AoS, a whole slew of new attributes were added to items, making the game all about said items and leaving skill on the back burner. And with insurance also being introduced, there was no longer the fear of losing items at all, so players became artificially powerful just due to itemization.
My main was a blacksmith/tailor. I spent hours every day doing nothing but repairing armor and weapons, and occasionally creating new armor or a new weapon for the players that wanted it. And I wasn't alone. There was typically four or five of us always standing at the Brit forge, just waiting for customers. And they did come. With the advent of AoS, my job was taken from me. Repair deeds replaced the need for a live smith/tailor, and with insurance and powder of fortitude, replacing items was unnecessary. And even if someone did happen to lose an item, I couldn't make one that was anywhere near what they required without a lot of luck and a lot of time spent on a system ruled by the RNG. For those of you saying that the classic shard wouldn't bring about more community, you need to look no further than this to see how you're mistaken.
Basically, my time in UO (at least the production version of it) was finished once AoS became a reality. I can tell you that AoS was pretty much a slap in the face, not just for the PvPers, but to the crafter as well. While I know that people were asking for necromancers and perhaps paladins, the AoS system was never asked for by the player base, and had I been asked, I would have voted 'no'. I did manage to vote 'no' after the fact by canceling my subscription. It's a shame it had to happen, but it did.
For those of you saying you can't go backwards to move forward, I can only say that adding a classic server isn't necessarily meant as a way of moving forward. In my mind it's a way for some to backtrack to a point where the wrong path was chosen in the hopes of finding the right path.
EDIT: I can say that I have played a few other MMOs since, and nothing compared to how I felt about UO before AoS. Nothing even comes close.
Absolutely spot on.For those of you saying you can't go backwards to move forward, I can only say that adding a classic server isn't necessarily meant as a way of moving forward. In my mind it's a way for some to backtrack to a point where the wrong path was chosen in the hopes of finding the right path.
Anyone oldschool enough to care about pre-Trammel is oldschool enough to remember who Calandryll is. And I shouldn't need to prove to anyone that developers post on that forum. Not after the stink that went down when Mark Jacobs was posting there.Calandryll said:Trammel absolutely made UO's subscriber numbers better in both the short and long term.
Oh my, aren't YOU just a little ray of sunsine rolleyes:Hey - remember me?
The one telling you several months ago not to waste your time and that EA/Mythic would not produce a classic shard?
6-8 years ago EA proposed the idea of a classic shard when there was a HUGE skyrocketing demand for it. Thousands upon thousands of players wanted it, it was during UO:R and there was a huge playerbase still left over playing the general shards.
EA/UO development team did the same thing as they have done in 2010: tease the community saying they would gauge interest, beat around the bush and not develiver.
Now the UO subscription base is dead (and has been dead for a few years now) - so I knew that EA/Mythic would NOT deliver..
I don't blame Mythic, maybe had they had a crack at it back in 2005 they could have done good - but the money and subscription base is not there as it once was.
It is clear now that the objective of EA/Mythic is to milk as much money as they can from ultima online before it eventually is retired and I cannot believe people STILL PAY to play this ancient graveyard of a game where the developers for the last 10 years have constantly pissed off and dissapointed players by putting in as much garabage they can into the game to attract more subscribers and milk it for all its worth.
Don't worry, there are several people out there doing classic shards BETER and FREE... or
get an Xbox or a WII..
It is time to finally retire UO gaming, its not like it was going to last forever.
even if mythic released a classic server it would only be a matter of time before they patch it into garbage or a fail from the get-go... they saved themselves the embarassment.
This response is odd. By reading this, I can only see three possibilities as to why it was posted at all.Hey - remember me?
The one telling you several months ago not to waste your time and that EA/Mythic is not going to produce a classic shard?
6-8 years ago EA proposed the idea of a classic shard when there was a HUGE skyrocketing demand for it.
They did the same then as they have done this year: lead the community saying they would gauge interest, beat around the bush and eventually say No.
Now the UO subscription base is dead (and has been dead for a few years now) - so I knew that EA/Mythic would NOT deliver..
Don't worry, there are several people out there doing classic shards BETER and FREE... so Im LOLing @ the fact that people still PAY to play this ancient game where developers have dissapointed the playerbase for the past 10 years.
get an Xbox or a WII and welcome to the future of gaming.
It is time to finally retire your UO hat, its not like it was going to last forever.
even if mythic released a classic server it would only be a matter of time before they patch it into garbage or fail from the get-go... they saved themselves the embarassment.
DittoEh, for me at least I canceled not long after AoS because I didn't like the changes. I came back a few months ago after reading Cal's statement about the possibility of a classic shard to show my support for the idea. I may be a counted a fool for it, but really that's more on Cal than on me at this point. You know the old adage "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Now past producers may have mentioned it as a possibility but never delivered, but as far as I'm aware this is Cal's first time bringing it up. I thought I'd give Cal a chance to honor his word of at least telling us what would happen by year end. I may only be one person, and I can't speak for everyone who is asking for one, but that's how it has gone for me.I have to say...
Since the "Classic" era's been gone for, what, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve years (depending upon your unique definition of "Classic," that is)...
I'm surprised it took anyone this long to cancel their account over the lack of a "Classic" shard. I mean, no offense, but nothing like dragging your feet. "EA, if you don't give me a Classic Shard, I'll only pay for another eight years! Take that, you inglorious bastards!"
First, some of us former players were NOT PKs...we just enjoyed the challenge that PKs added to the game.Is the tired old ex-PK brigade still trying to pretend Trammel wasn't good for the game's subscriptions?
[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Camelot Herald: Server Types[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
There are various server types available to players of Dark Age of Camelot. These server types have different rules depending on which one you choose to play on. To help you understand them, below is a list of these server types and brief descriptions of each:
Traditional Servers[/FONT]
These servers run by the traditional RvR rulesets. The concept is the same: you have three realms (Albion, Hibernia, and Midgard), which are all at war with each other over keeps, land, and relics. You may only play in one of these realms on all of your characters when playing on a traditional server, so choose your realm wisely.
- Realms are enemies.
- No inter-Realm communication.
- You cannot attack Realm members (other than in duels).
- Relics affect Realm members.
The following are our traditional servers:
Devon cluster:
Akatsuki
Bedevere
Galahad
Igraine
Iseult
Kay
Lancelot
Morgan Le Fay
Pellinor
Tristan
Killibury cluster:
Bors
Gawaine
Merlin
Palomides
Guinevere
Percival
Nimue Classic Servers
Servers with the Classic flag set run under traditional server rules (see above); however, these servers cannot access the Trials of Atlantis expansion (Trials of Atlantis races are still available) and they have specific limitations on buffs. Players cannot be affected by beneficial buff spells unless grouped with the caster and are limited in range.
The following are our Classic servers:
Bossiney Cluster
Ector
Gareth
Lamorak
Cooperative Server
Cooperative servers step away from the traditional ruleset, in that you may play in all three realms on these servers in a cooperative fashion. The server is completely Player vs Environment (a.k.a. "PvE") with the exception of the dueling options.
- May not attack any player character.
- May play cooperatively with characters from any Realm.
- Characters may travel freely to all three realms.
- There is no RvR, only one-on-one dueling.
The current Cooperative server is Gaheris.
Player vs. Player Server (PvP)
Much like the Cooperative Servers, the PvP servers allow you to play characters in all three realms; however, despite this, you must fight against others across ALL THREE realms. Player-killing on these servers is not optional. Read more on the PvP server!
- May fight with any player character.
- May communicate with any character.
- Characters may travel freely through all three realms.
- Relics are controlled by groups or guilds.
The current PvP Server is Mordred.
Test Server
Pendragon is also known as the "Test Server." It is where code currently in development is uploaded for public testing before it is patched to the live servers. Players who choose to make Pendragon their home will also receive customer service support; however, it should be understood that problems can, may, and will occur with patches currently undergoing testing. More information about playing on Pendragon can be found here.
A.K.A. Not a dummy. We at least agree on that I hope...Owen Kay Garriott, Ph.D. (born November 22, 1930) is a former NASA astronaut who spent 60 days aboard Skylab in 1973 and 10 days aboard Spacelab-1 in 1983. He is also the father of Robert Garriott and fellow spacefarer Richard Garriott[1], with whom he helped found Origin Systems.
where he was a member of the ... what ?Garriott was born in Enid, Oklahoma. He graduated from Enid High School in 1948; received a B.S. in Electrical Engineering from the University of Oklahoma in 1953, where he was a member of Phi Kappa Psi Fraternity, and a M.S. and Ph.D from Stanford University in Electrical Engineering in 1957 and 1960, respectively. Completed one year U.S. Air Force Pilot Training Program (1966), receiving qualification as pilot in jet aircraft.
Interesting political statement...Since 1886, Phi Kappa Psi has been controlled by undergraduates. This unique system of governance is achieved by a governing body, the Executive Council, which is made up of a majority of elected undergraduates. These undergraduates, known as Archons, represent the six Districts of Phi Kappa Psi, which divide the nation into roughly equal parts based on the number of chapters represented. Archons are elected during meetings of each District during Woodrow Wilson Leadership Schools, held during odd-numbered years. Four alumni also serve on the Executive Council and are elected at Grand Arch Councils, held during even-numbered years.
He was a very, very high ranking member.Famous Phi-Psis include President Woodrow Wilson, New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, John F. Kennedy Jr, Astronaut Owen Garriott
I have to admit, no matter the game, I've never been the world's best PvPer (or anywhere close), mostly because I never have the time to devote to learning all the ins and outs of not only my own skills, but as importantly, those of others.First, some of us former players were NOT PKs...we just enjoyed the challenge that PKs added to the game.
Whole different ball of wax though... DAoC did that before EA had swept them up into the EA Borg Conglomerate.Mythic Bioware has no problems for making different servers for their other games to try please any type of players so why not UO. It makes the reources argument kind of weak when they do it for DaoC.
EXACTLY!! (and I love the Princess Bride reference btw!)It is this exact sentiment that made me choose a PvP realm on World of Warcraft. Without that added dynamic of "Hey, I could be jumped at any moment," or "You, over there, you just stole my herb node, you killed my father, prepare to die," well, WoW would be less exciting.
Okay...maybe I should have broken that into parts to respond, but I am going to take a collective stab it at instead.The reason I don't miss it is because there's no "honor" left in Felucca, and even back at the tail end of Felucca's prime, the cheats and hacks were already becoming prevalent. Way back when, I could actually sit down and talk to someone who had just killed me, and I could respect that I'd lost a battle. No big loss. Of course, if I sat around and talked enough, my guild would also have arrived on the scene and taken care of business, but that's a side note.
Thing is... I don't miss the grief, I don't miss the garbage that went with it. Sure, WoW has its fair share of jerks, but to be honest, I've never, ever felt like someone was out to destroy my game play experience simply for the sake of doing it; latter days of Felucca, that was the opposite feeling, and to be frank, it's a lot of why Trammel came to be.
And those who say they would just play a permanent, non-changing server may think that's the truth... but they'd eventually come to want fixes and additions to keep the game interesting
Well...I finally got permission to reveal my source on this...Yes, a bold face lie! Why didn’t we see it sooner! All bow down to Morgana's prescience!
Oh, wait, sorry, I live in reality.
I’m far more inclined to believe Draconi http://vboards.stratics.com/1798180-post86.html than you, a highly disgruntled ex-player with an axe to grind.
[
Hmm. Believe Morgana’s wish fulfillment, or believe someone (Draconi) who actually HAS credibility and knows WTF he’s talking about.
Choices, choices.
I'm confused... What did Cal say?Well...I finally got permission to reveal my source on this...
...would you believe it if say...CAL...said it?? You know, the producer of the game?
No. I dont. I dont suppose many others do either. Get over yourself.Hey - remember me?
Cliff Notes Version (Best kind, IMO) - They still have the code from a "classic" era, pre-AoS I'd assume, and that they've had it all along.I'm confused... What did Cal say?
Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but now I'm curious.
Sorry, I guess the quote didn't work out the way I wanted.I'm confused... What did Cal say?
Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but now I'm curious.
In their defense, sometimes you have to say things that are not entirely true in business in order to prevent PR nightmares. Obviously, at this point in time, Cal felt that there was no harm in letting that particular cat out of the bag, otherwise he would not have told me the truth on it, and then cleared me to spill it.Well, I look at this three ways:
If Morgana is telling the truth, than we were lied to. Repeatedly.
If we weren't lied to directly, they have very, very poor internal communication, or a practice of hiding information about products from it's own developers.
If what Morgana says is untrue or Cal is incorrect, and they do not actually have the code, it's the grossest kind of mistake you can make as a developer, software company, IT anything - Failure to keep backup and documentation, especially for a commercial product. Something I didn't think highly of when I first learned this.
Any way you look at it, it's about what I'd expect from EA. And they sit around wondering why everyone thinks so poorly of them.
Ahh, I see now. It all makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.Sorry, I guess the quote didn't work out the way I wanted.
The context of the conversation was that in the past, one of the developers made the claim that they no longer have the old server code backups...the actual snapshots.
Being someone that has worked in coding, managed development, and has been involved in setting up new code shops, I knew this had to be untrue. So, I asked Cal about it. He confirmed that it is NOT true. They do have the snapshots...the old server code.
I just wouldn't say where I got the information until I cleared with Cal first...which I did, and he said "totally that will be fine. And yeah, I could spend all day defending what we do but it would just get eaten up ... but yes, please offer that info."
And so I did.
I might be a former player with an axe to grind...but I don't post unsubstantiated BS...and despite what a few people will tell you, I am not delusional When I make a statement of fact, I always have something to back it up. If I say that it is my opinion, or use a term like 'I'll bet' or 'probably', then I am not stating a known fact, and likely have no evidence to support my claim.
Thanks for allowing me to share that with the class Cal!
This.. Wow.. I don't know who saw my previous posts.. Very pissed. Even started to post a link about it on MMORPG, but thought better of it a second after I hit post, went back and deleted the text and title, so hopefully nobody saw it or paid attention to it... Because when things go down, and they will, I don't want to be the one who is responsible for the repercussions. I don't want to see anyone lose their job over this, no matter how mad I am.In their defense, sometimes you have to say things that are not entirely true in business in order to prevent PR nightmares. Obviously, at this point in time, Cal felt that there was no harm in letting that particular cat out of the bag, otherwise he would not have told me the truth on it, and then cleared me to spill it.
But don't hold it against the previous devs. It is likely that someone above them made that the "official line".
On the upside, since they do have the code, that is one less argument against a Classic Shard. It would not have to be a complete, from the ground, re-write...which quells some, not all, of the argument regarding resources should they choose to implement the shard using old code. However, knowing what I know, something tells me that just throwing the old code up on a server and making an older client available for download is probably not going to cut it. But it sure would be an easier solution.
I see.Just because the old code is there doesn't mean it is usable without a great deal of work. I just wanted the record set straight.
There's a really easy way to see the end of these topics...I hope so too...to see an end to these topics one way or another
Until Cal steps up and says this, it is still unsubstantiated. Anyone could say that Cal has said anything. He very well may have said it, but until its posted using his account, its little more than rumor.Sorry, I guess the quote didn't work out the way I wanted.I'm confused... What did Cal say?
Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but now I'm curious.
The context of the conversation was that in the past, one of the developers made the claim that they no longer have the old server code backups...the actual snapshots.
Being someone that has worked in coding, managed development, and has been involved in setting up new code shops, I knew this had to be untrue. So, I asked Cal about it. He confirmed that it is NOT true. They do have the snapshots...the old server code.
I just wouldn't say where I got the information until I cleared with Cal first...which I did, and he said "totally that will be fine. And yeah, I could spend all day defending what we do but it would just get eaten up ... but yes, please offer that info."
And so I did.
I might be a former player with an axe to grind...but I don't post unsubstantiated BS...and despite what a few people will tell you, I am not delusional When I make a statement of fact, I always have something to back it up. If I say that it is my opinion, or use a term like 'I'll bet' or 'probably', then I am not stating a known fact, and likely have no evidence to support my claim.
Thanks for allowing me to share that with the class Cal!
I was under the impression that:
Just: WHOA!*sigh*
Well, I suppose I don't mind you calling me a liar, but I guess you felt you needed to do it.
I will leave it up to Cal to 'man up' here and not leave me in the lurch. I know he doesn't have time to deal with childish crap like this...but I know that he is an honest man. I will not post anything from our private conversations that I do not have his express consent to post. So if he chooses not to back me up here, I guess that is his choice to make.
Just: WHOA!
No-one called you a liar ... nor Cal ...
If I say that someone has said something that they did not say...then that makes me a liar. You can choose to dance around semantics if you'd like, but the implication was quite clear.Anyone could say that Cal has said anything.
By implying that Cal has a reason to lie, it also implies that he did.WHY would Draconi lie? He has no motive to, however, Cal does.
What was said was..."Cal, one of the other Devs said you guys no longer have the old server backups from before Trammel...is this true". His response was "No. That is definitely not true!"and there is >no need< for Cal to "man up" ... you be the one that brought the gossip in here ...
yep
gossip
things said and repeated, that "on their own" may be true ...
however
Did Cal say: "I'm looking at the transcripts/snapshots/server code .... and I recognize this as original whatever ..."