Year End Approaching...No Classic Shard

[Arcus]

Whenever UO shuts down someday, it won't be because they added Trammel a decade-plus in the past, or because they failed to placate a couple of forum diehards. Get over yourselves.

This. Exactly.

 

[Vlaude]

This. Exactly.

No one's suggesting or saying trammel will be the single reason UO will shut down, if they did point it out and take it up with them rather than basically empty quoting someone.

 

[Xora]

You think Darkfall and Mortal Online players will come to UO? Really? Why give up a game with modern 3D graphics (Yes, graphics ARE important to modern gamers, so lets not go down that inane road.) AND the style of play they like to go back in time 20 years to 90's era graphics?

I'm one of those Darkfall players who would come to UO Classic in a heart beat. In trying to become something different games tend to warp straight forward concepts. I have yet to play a game with UO's depth of interaction that didn't force dependency on groups. Darkfall's existance should actually be read almost entirely as a pro-classic UO argument. The large number of guilds who came out at release despite core members being unable to purchase accounts (if you didn't get a pre-order you didn't have another shot at an account for over 2 weeks) and the roughly 5 months all of these classic UO era guilds battled it out in a game with no content, more bugs than UO ever had, and less over sight to manage issues shows there is a definite interest. Darkfall was a game made by PvP gamers for PvP gamers and while delivering on PvP it oddly lacked all other aspects you would expect from a game. Yet many of us continue to play because it is the only harsh world available.

I'm not sure how you can cite the classic response on these forums as a decider of anything. UO made a business decision to break the interaction aspect of their game to protect the larger subscription base. By the very nature of that decision the primary user base of this forum is people who will be wholely against classic project. That was over a decade ago and this is far from the first time a classic UO server has been teased which only adds to the impropability of non-actives chiming in regular to defend a classic server. I started the guild I still play with almost 13 years ago on Chesapeake and in the last 2 games we've broken 150 active players. When this topic came up last spring over 40 were in favor of a classic server and others would go where the group went. How many of those are watching this forum for classic info? Only 1 other than myself that I know of. If you need an example of why many of us don't post often take a look at the thread where you went pages arguing against classic with made up numbers and no one called you out and compare it to the number of responses MLF gets whenever he/she says something silly. Anti-classic has home field advantage here and realistically we have no reason to believe putting up a "good fight" on these forums means anything. We've been through this tease before.

Lastly, could you and others please refrain from comparing Siege Perilous to a potential classic server. Siege Perilous was a bone thrown to PvPers to keep their subscription fees. It was released and wiped at least once which lowered return as people got fed up starting over and after dominant guilds had taken hold there was a 200+ count ban for massive duping. Go to Lum the Mad's archives and look up "Hammerfall" posts to get details. Essentially SP was gutted and never recovered. Battle Vortex forums were active but there were way more trolls than players. As Trammel drained life from Fel guilds would move to SP only to find their old server had more life on Fel than SP had period. SP never had a chance.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

Intentions aren't the issue here. Cal made the statement as the producer. While his reputation may not matter to most people (which isn't to say it shouldn't) he puts it on the line when he issues out a statement with a deadline to people he does business with (or hopes to do business with) being customers. Now, if Cal announces that there will be no classic shard that does not damage his reputation as long as he gives a reason for why not. However, if he doesn't stick to a deadline or just says "NO, haha!" then why shouldn't it damage it?

I don't know how you read my last post but I realize that intentions don't matter, my point is if you want to stick with the facts we don't have a classic shard. I agree with Mograna that people waiting for this should have bailed out by now.

And I mean honestly the loss of the last remaining few classic shard supporters...in the grand scheme of things who gives a toss? I'm saying that as someone who does support the idea and would play on it if it did ever happen.

The thing about UO is that the people running it know you aren't going to leave, if you were going to leave you would have done it by now. I think that's become pretty evident with all of their releases since AoS, people complain constantly about all these things that need fixing but they know they won't likely ever be fixed.

Being a UO subscriber is a lot like being a beaten down dog, after a while you lose any expectation but disappointment.

If I'm wrong then I am wrong but if I were a betting man I would feel good about the odds.

 

[Vlaude]

I don't know how you read my last post but I realize that intentions don't matter, my point is if you want to stick with the facts we don't have a classic shard. I agree with Mograna that people waiting for this should have bailed out by now.

And I mean honestly the loss of the last remaining few classic shard supporters...in the grand scheme of things who gives a toss? I'm saying that as someone who does support the idea and would play on it if it did ever happen.

The thing about UO is that the people running it know you aren't going to leave, if you were going to leave you would have done it by now. I think that's become pretty evident with all of their releases since AoS, people complain constantly about all these things that need fixing but they know they won't likely ever be fixed.

Being a UO subscriber is a lot like being a beaten down dog, after a while you lose any expectation but disappointment.

If I'm wrong then I am wrong but if I were a betting man I would feel good about the odds.

I wouldn't have reopened my account if it wasn't for Cal's announcement so most of your post applies to someone else. I left UO after AoS and I came back at the proposal of a classic shard to show support for the idea, whether it was in vain or not isn't what I'm debating. I haven't been actively following UO news or updates for years and won't again if this isn't happening. So saying stuff about what's been happening for years and how "you've been around this long you'll be back" doesn't apply to me because I haven't been here. If 10 years from now a new producer announces there will be a possible classic shard I doubt I'll even know about it but even if I did I wouldn't come back again after this. This is it for me I'm not one who fluctuates easily.

One a side not to everyone: Also, don't toss me in with the group who is arguing a classic shard will save or doom UO. I would argue trammel and AoS saved it years back and perhaps prolonged UO's life. Does that mean I'm going to play it? No, I don't enjoy it. Do I want and support the idea of a classic shard? Yes, that's why I came back briefly. Was it foolish or vain to come back? Maybe, but like I've said that's on Cal and the devs, not me.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

So saying stuff about what's been happening for years and how "you've been around this long you'll be back" doesn't apply to me because I haven't been here.

It was a general statement not targeting you specifically, as to the other part of your post, I don't think trammel was the way to go but there is no doubt it prolonged the existence of UO, it would be hard to argue otherwise since the game is still around.

I personally dislike the trammel style of gameplay which is why I left the game but it gave a growing number of players what they wanted. I think where games like darkfall go wrong is that they go to other extreme and say no safe zones at all.

I thought the original UO had it right, towns were safe places to go and do business and outside of the guard zones you were subject to interacting with other players, sometimes to good effect and other times not so good.

Although other measures had they been implemented more effectively would have curbed pking. Stat loss on death would have thinned the ranks of pks considerably, adding more guard towers in various well traveled areas would have been helpful as well.

In that manner once you learn the lay of the land as a player, you know where to run for safety, but the riskier your adventures are, say in a dungeon the more you stand to lose as there won't be guards in or around a dungeon area.

The bounty system was nice in theory but far to easy to abuse, an incentive for anti pk groups would be nice, perhaps even a contract system where players hire other more pvp hardened players to protect them while they craft or run a dungeon, in fact I knew a guild way back that used to protect miners in that way for a set amount of gold per hour.

Anyways apologies for the off topic.

 

[Aragon100]

Just take Darkfall that had +350000 following the game. So there is a interest for games with a gameplay like classic UO. All of those that had interest in Darkfall or Mortal Online would not play a classic UO but enough of them would. Those players would keep such a shard alive and most likely more populated then any of today UO shards.

You think Darkfall and Mortal Online players will come to UO? Really? Why give up a game with modern 3D graphics (Yes, graphics ARE important to modern gamers, so lets not go down that inane road.) AND the style of play they like to go back in time 20 years to 90's era graphics?

Modern gamers look at UO and laugh. They laugh at the ancient graphics and they laugh at the people like us addicted to playing it.

A friend of a friend asked me what I played when he heard I was a gamer. I said UO. After the stunned look wore off, he said he was surprised that it was still around. Then he asked which 3D engine they were using now. It went downhill from there.

Believe it or not, but not all gamers are looking for vacuous, eye candy. Some would like a game with meaning, player diversity, community and freedom. A game where you can actually make a difference to the shard be that positive or negative. I've played numerous MMO's and still find 2d Classic UO to be the most immersive and rewarding gaming experience.

Yes a classic shard will not attract your average mainstream gamer but that isn't its target audience and I think you vastly underestimate the size of the community that still longs for Classic UO.

Well said MrWilliams. Nice graphics is never wrong but in the long run it cant keep my interest up for a game. Immersive and rewarding gameplay is what keep me as a subscriber in the long run.

Newer MMO games usually have nice graphics but tend to lack in gameplay. Players isnt interested to pay subs just for some eyecandy.

Classic UO is not eyecandy but is still to be beaten when it comes to immersive and rewarding gameplay.

 

[Dicimiie]

I won't attempt to speak for others on why a classic shard would be wanted. I can only give my reasons for wanting it. Please keep in mind that I am one of the players that left shortly after AoS was released, and apart from a short stint a couple of years ago, I haven't played since then.

To me, AoS was a complete shift from what drew me to UO. When I started, items had a few properties (Ruin, Might, Force, Vanquish), and few people would even use these items for fear of losing them. With the advent of AoS, a whole slew of new attributes were added to items, making the game all about said items and leaving skill on the back burner. And with insurance also being introduced, there was no longer the fear of losing items at all, so players became artificially powerful just due to itemization.

My main was a blacksmith/tailor. I spent hours every day doing nothing but repairing armor and weapons, and occasionally creating new armor or a new weapon for the players that wanted it. And I wasn't alone. There was typically four or five of us always standing at the Brit forge, just waiting for customers. And they did come. With the advent of AoS, my job was taken from me. Repair deeds replaced the need for a live smith/tailor, and with insurance and powder of fortitude, replacing items was unnecessary. And even if someone did happen to lose an item, I couldn't make one that was anywhere near what they required without a lot of luck and a lot of time spent on a system ruled by the RNG. For those of you saying that the classic shard wouldn't bring about more community, you need to look no further than this to see how you're mistaken.

Basically, my time in UO (at least the production version of it) was finished once AoS became a reality. I can tell you that AoS was pretty much a slap in the face, not just for the PvPers, but to the crafter as well. While I know that people were asking for necromancers and perhaps paladins, the AoS system was never asked for by the player base, and had I been asked, I would have voted 'no'. I did manage to vote 'no' after the fact by canceling my subscription. It's a shame it had to happen, but it did.

For those of you saying you can't go backwards to move forward, I can only say that adding a classic server isn't necessarily meant as a way of moving forward. In my mind it's a way for some to backtrack to a point where the wrong path was chosen in the hopes of finding the right path.

EDIT: I can say that I have played a few other MMOs since, and nothing compared to how I felt about UO before AoS. Nothing even comes close.

 

[copycon]

I won't attempt to speak for others on why a classic shard would be wanted. I can only give my reasons for wanting it. Please keep in mind that I am one of the players that left shortly after AoS was released, and apart from a short stint a couple of years ago, I haven't played since then.

To me, AoS was a complete shift from what drew me to UO. When I started, items had a few properties (Ruin, Might, Force, Vanquish), and few people would even use these items for fear of losing them. With the advent of AoS, a whole slew of new attributes were added to items, making the game all about said items and leaving skill on the back burner. And with insurance also being introduced, there was no longer the fear of losing items at all, so players became artificially powerful just due to itemization.

My main was a blacksmith/tailor. I spent hours every day doing nothing but repairing armor and weapons, and occasionally creating new armor or a new weapon for the players that wanted it. And I wasn't alone. There was typically four or five of us always standing at the Brit forge, just waiting for customers. And they did come. With the advent of AoS, my job was taken from me. Repair deeds replaced the need for a live smith/tailor, and with insurance and powder of fortitude, replacing items was unnecessary. And even if someone did happen to lose an item, I couldn't make one that was anywhere near what they required without a lot of luck and a lot of time spent on a system ruled by the RNG. For those of you saying that the classic shard wouldn't bring about more community, you need to look no further than this to see how you're mistaken.

Basically, my time in UO (at least the production version of it) was finished once AoS became a reality. I can tell you that AoS was pretty much a slap in the face, not just for the PvPers, but to the crafter as well. While I know that people were asking for necromancers and perhaps paladins, the AoS system was never asked for by the player base, and had I been asked, I would have voted 'no'. I did manage to vote 'no' after the fact by canceling my subscription. It's a shame it had to happen, but it did.

For those of you saying you can't go backwards to move forward, I can only say that adding a classic server isn't necessarily meant as a way of moving forward. In my mind it's a way for some to backtrack to a point where the wrong path was chosen in the hopes of finding the right path.

EDIT: I can say that I have played a few other MMOs since, and nothing compared to how I felt about UO before AoS. Nothing even comes close.

Well said.

 

[Aragon100]

I won't attempt to speak for others on why a classic shard would be wanted. I can only give my reasons for wanting it. Please keep in mind that I am one of the players that left shortly after AoS was released, and apart from a short stint a couple of years ago, I haven't played since then.

To me, AoS was a complete shift from what drew me to UO. When I started, items had a few properties (Ruin, Might, Force, Vanquish), and few people would even use these items for fear of losing them. With the advent of AoS, a whole slew of new attributes were added to items, making the game all about said items and leaving skill on the back burner. And with insurance also being introduced, there was no longer the fear of losing items at all, so players became artificially powerful just due to itemization.

My main was a blacksmith/tailor. I spent hours every day doing nothing but repairing armor and weapons, and occasionally creating new armor or a new weapon for the players that wanted it. And I wasn't alone. There was typically four or five of us always standing at the Brit forge, just waiting for customers. And they did come. With the advent of AoS, my job was taken from me. Repair deeds replaced the need for a live smith/tailor, and with insurance and powder of fortitude, replacing items was unnecessary. And even if someone did happen to lose an item, I couldn't make one that was anywhere near what they required without a lot of luck and a lot of time spent on a system ruled by the RNG. For those of you saying that the classic shard wouldn't bring about more community, you need to look no further than this to see how you're mistaken.

Basically, my time in UO (at least the production version of it) was finished once AoS became a reality. I can tell you that AoS was pretty much a slap in the face, not just for the PvPers, but to the crafter as well. While I know that people were asking for necromancers and perhaps paladins, the AoS system was never asked for by the player base, and had I been asked, I would have voted 'no'. I did manage to vote 'no' after the fact by canceling my subscription. It's a shame it had to happen, but it did.

For those of you saying you can't go backwards to move forward, I can only say that adding a classic server isn't necessarily meant as a way of moving forward. In my mind it's a way for some to backtrack to a point where the wrong path was chosen in the hopes of finding the right path.

EDIT: I can say that I have played a few other MMOs since, and nothing compared to how I felt about UO before AoS. Nothing even comes close.

Well said and i agree to the fullest with it all.

 

[Coldren]

For those of you saying you can't go backwards to move forward, I can only say that adding a classic server isn't necessarily meant as a way of moving forward. In my mind it's a way for some to backtrack to a point where the wrong path was chosen in the hopes of finding the right path.

Absolutely spot on.

Even with the argument given by myself and other people who want a classic server that we'd never want it changed.. I think deep down, most of us would want to see it change, (as a game should and must to retain players) but in such a way that the destination is far from where AoS has lead UO.

*Sigh* .. If only I could link..

 

[popeto]

Hey - remember me?
The one telling you several months ago not to waste your time and that EA/Mythic would not produce a classic shard?

6-8 years ago EA proposed the idea of a classic shard when there was a HUGE skyrocketing demand for it. Thousands upon thousands of players wanted it, it was during UO:R and there was a huge playerbase still left over playing the general shards.

EA/UO development team did the same thing as they have done in 2010: tease the community saying they would gauge interest, beat around the bush and not develiver.

Now the UO subscription base is dead (and has been dead for a few years now) - so I knew that EA/Mythic would NOT deliver..

I don't blame Mythic, maybe had they had a crack at it back in 2005 they could have done good - but the money and subscription base is not there as it once was.

It is clear now that the objective of EA/Mythic is to milk as much money as they can from ultima online before it eventually is retired and I cannot believe people STILL PAY to play this ancient graveyard of a game where the developers for the last 10 years have constantly pissed off and dissapointed players by:

1) Puting in tons of garbage into the game to attract other audiences (trammel, ninjas, gargoyles, etc) advanced charaters, different mounts, neon items.

2) Hardly catering to the core playerbase/dedicated playerbase who loved the game for what it was and making changes based on the cry babies that patrolled forums racking up hundreds of post counts complaining about things until the game was changed to cater their playstyle.


Don't worry, there are several people out there doing classic shards BETTER and FREE... or
get an Xbox or a WII..

It is time to finally retire UO gaming, its not like it was going to last forever.



I didnt even pay for UO the last two hours that I played it.. I would scam gold and sell it to tradespot for gamer cards because even when UO:R was around I knew they were going to completely destroy this game and it was not worth my money at THAT POINT - I can't believe there are those of you who up until now or even a year ago STILL PAID for a subscription to this game.


even if mythic released a classic server it would only be a matter of time before they patch it into garbage or a fail from the get-go... they saved themselves the embarassment.

 

[Skrag]

Is the tired old ex-PK brigade still trying to pretend Trammel wasn't good for the game's subscriptions? If only I had some information from like... say... an ex-UO developer. One who had moved on from the game a long time ago, and who was speaking freely.

Oh wait I have exactly that. You might need to be registered to see it. It's a four year old locked thread, please don't try to respond to it.

Trammel absolutely made UO's subscriber numbers better in both the short and long term.

Anyone oldschool enough to care about pre-Trammel is oldschool enough to remember who Calandryll is. And I shouldn't need to prove to anyone that developers post on that forum. Not after the stink that went down when Mark Jacobs was posting there.

 

[Cailleach]

Hey - remember me?
The one telling you several months ago not to waste your time and that EA/Mythic would not produce a classic shard?

6-8 years ago EA proposed the idea of a classic shard when there was a HUGE skyrocketing demand for it. Thousands upon thousands of players wanted it, it was during UO:R and there was a huge playerbase still left over playing the general shards.

EA/UO development team did the same thing as they have done in 2010: tease the community saying they would gauge interest, beat around the bush and not develiver.

Now the UO subscription base is dead (and has been dead for a few years now) - so I knew that EA/Mythic would NOT deliver..

I don't blame Mythic, maybe had they had a crack at it back in 2005 they could have done good - but the money and subscription base is not there as it once was.

It is clear now that the objective of EA/Mythic is to milk as much money as they can from ultima online before it eventually is retired and I cannot believe people STILL PAY to play this ancient graveyard of a game where the developers for the last 10 years have constantly pissed off and dissapointed players by putting in as much garabage they can into the game to attract more subscribers and milk it for all its worth.


Don't worry, there are several people out there doing classic shards BETER and FREE... or
get an Xbox or a WII..

It is time to finally retire UO gaming, its not like it was going to last forever.

even if mythic released a classic server it would only be a matter of time before they patch it into garbage or a fail from the get-go... they saved themselves the embarassment.

Oh my, aren't YOU just a little ray of sunsine rolleyes:

 

[Dicimiie]

Hey - remember me?


The one telling you several months ago not to waste your time and that EA/Mythic is not going to produce a classic shard?

6-8 years ago EA proposed the idea of a classic shard when there was a HUGE skyrocketing demand for it.

They did the same then as they have done this year: lead the community saying they would gauge interest, beat around the bush and eventually say No.


Now the UO subscription base is dead (and has been dead for a few years now) - so I knew that EA/Mythic would NOT deliver..

Don't worry, there are several people out there doing classic shards BETER and FREE... so Im LOLing @ the fact that people still PAY to play this ancient game where developers have dissapointed the playerbase for the past 10 years.

get an Xbox or a WII and welcome to the future of gaming.
It is time to finally retire your UO hat, its not like it was going to last forever.

even if mythic released a classic server it would only be a matter of time before they patch it into garbage or fail from the get-go... they saved themselves the embarassment.

This response is odd. By reading this, I can only see three possibilities as to why it was posted at all.

1) You canceled your account a long time ago, but still look on the boards on the off chance that something catches your eye so you can re-subscribe.If this is true, posting negativity hurts you in the long run, making this post a mistake.

2) You are still a subscriber, but are very disgruntled at how the game is currently. If this is true, your best method of voicing your opinion would be to say why you were canceling your account, following it up with canceling your account. Since your post makes no mention of you canceling your account now, your post is empty.

3) You canceled your account, have no desire to ever come back, and simply come here to post negativity on the board for 'cool points.' If this is true, I'm afraid you faltered. Your "I told you so" is probably mostly falling upon deaf ears. The only reason I'm even posting about it is because I found it mildly irritating.

Some of us are actually here to discuss why we would be willing to play again or why we would continue to play should a classic shard be implemented. Basically, your entire post was pointless, since unless you work as part of EA or the UO team, you really no nothing about their plans.

 

[MrWilliams]

I have to say...

Since the "Classic" era's been gone for, what, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve years (depending upon your unique definition of "Classic," that is)...

I'm surprised it took anyone this long to cancel their account over the lack of a "Classic" shard. I mean, no offense, but nothing like dragging your feet. "EA, if you don't give me a Classic Shard, I'll only pay for another eight years! Take that, you inglorious bastards!"

Eh, for me at least I canceled not long after AoS because I didn't like the changes. I came back a few months ago after reading Cal's statement about the possibility of a classic shard to show my support for the idea. I may be a counted a fool for it, but really that's more on Cal than on me at this point. You know the old adage "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Now past producers may have mentioned it as a possibility but never delivered, but as far as I'm aware this is Cal's first time bringing it up. I thought I'd give Cal a chance to honor his word of at least telling us what would happen by year end. I may only be one person, and I can't speak for everyone who is asking for one, but that's how it has gone for me.

Ditto

 

[Dermott of LS]

Hey - remember me?

...

No.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Is the tired old ex-PK brigade still trying to pretend Trammel wasn't good for the game's subscriptions?

First, some of us former players were NOT PKs...we just enjoyed the challenge that PKs added to the game.

Secondly, I don't think you will find very many people that will argue the fact that Trammel added to/retained subscriptions, at least short term.

What most of us are saying is that we *prefered* the game pre-Trammel/pre-AoS...and that we have no expectation of any current players to leave the safety and ease of Trammel/AoS shards. That's silly. Why would the current playerbase have a preference for open PvP?

I think that has been one of the biggest problems surrounding this entire issue. Former players that were subject to out of control PKing, out of control ganking, out of control taunting, still hold a grudge against the players that did that to them...and in turn, they automatically jump into Classic Shard discussion to rant on and on about how superior they are because EA/OSI essentially sided with them and made Trammel.

I think the PKs got the point several years ago. Trammel is not going anywhere.

But that has not been what Classic Shard supporters are asking for. What we are asking for is the option to play the game as we prefered it, WITHOUT requiring you to log on to the shard. No one is talking about forcing anyone into playing a Classic Shard...as I said many times during this debate, for fans of the current game, the Classic Shard would just be another shard on the list that you could click, or not. Unless you are someone that plays characters on every single shard, you are already ignoring some (most) of the shards on the list anyway...what's one more?

 

[Zosimus]

Mythic Bioware has no problems for making different servers for their other games to try please any type of players so why not UO. It makes the reources argument kind of weak when they do it for DaoC.

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Camelot Herald: Server Types[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
There are various server types available to players of Dark Age of Camelot. These server types have different rules depending on which one you choose to play on. To help you understand them, below is a list of these server types and brief descriptions of each:

Traditional Servers

These servers run by the traditional RvR rulesets. The concept is the same: you have three realms (Albion, Hibernia, and Midgard), which are all at war with each other over keeps, land, and relics. You may only play in one of these realms on all of your characters when playing on a traditional server, so choose your realm wisely.
- Realms are enemies.
- No inter-Realm communication.
- You cannot attack Realm members (other than in duels).
- Relics affect Realm members.
The following are our traditional servers:

Devon cluster:
Akatsuki
Bedevere
Galahad
Igraine
Iseult
Kay
Lancelot
Morgan Le Fay
Pellinor
Tristan

Killibury cluster:
Bors
Gawaine
Merlin
Palomides
Guinevere
Percival
Nimue Classic Servers
Servers with the Classic flag set run under traditional server rules (see above); however, these servers cannot access the Trials of Atlantis expansion (Trials of Atlantis races are still available) and they have specific limitations on buffs. Players cannot be affected by beneficial buff spells unless grouped with the caster and are limited in range.
The following are our Classic servers:

Bossiney Cluster
Ector
Gareth
Lamorak
Cooperative Server

Cooperative servers step away from the traditional ruleset, in that you may play in all three realms on these servers in a cooperative fashion. The server is completely Player vs Environment (a.k.a. "PvE") with the exception of the dueling options.

- May not attack any player character.
- May play cooperatively with characters from any Realm.
- Characters may travel freely to all three realms.
- There is no RvR, only one-on-one dueling.
The current Cooperative server is Gaheris.

Player vs. Player Server (PvP)

Much like the Cooperative Servers, the PvP servers allow you to play characters in all three realms; however, despite this, you must fight against others across ALL THREE realms. Player-killing on these servers is not optional. Read more on the PvP server!

- May fight with any player character.
- May communicate with any character.
- Characters may travel freely through all three realms.
- Relics are controlled by groups or guilds.
The current PvP Server is Mordred.
Test Server

Pendragon is also known as the "Test Server." It is where code currently in development is uploaded for public testing before it is patched to the live servers. Players who choose to make Pendragon their home will also receive customer service support; however, it should be understood that problems can, may, and will occur with patches currently undergoing testing. More information about playing on Pendragon can be found here.​

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[/FONT]

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Thats a nice quote ; however I explained to you all why it wasn't possible, but I'll be happy if I'm proved wrong.

It is sadly political and in the quagmire with wiki leaks and other sources of "truth" and I put emphasis on me not claiming to knowing the "truth".

I will quote again since this is the time all secrets are revealed.

Owen Kay Garriott, Ph.D. (born November 22, 1930) is a former NASA astronaut who spent 60 days aboard Skylab in 1973 and 10 days aboard Spacelab-1 in 1983. He is also the father of Robert Garriott and fellow spacefarer Richard Garriott[1], with whom he helped found Origin Systems.

A.K.A. Not a dummy. We at least agree on that I hope...

Garriott was born in Enid, Oklahoma. He graduated from Enid High School in 1948; received a B.S. in Electrical Engineering from the University of Oklahoma in 1953, where he was a member of Phi Kappa Psi Fraternity, and a M.S. and Ph.D from Stanford University in Electrical Engineering in 1957 and 1960, respectively. Completed one year U.S. Air Force Pilot Training Program (1966), receiving qualification as pilot in jet aircraft.

where he was a member of the ... what ?

Lets follow the link shall we ?

Since 1886, Phi Kappa Psi has been controlled by undergraduates. This unique system of governance is achieved by a governing body, the Executive Council, which is made up of a majority of elected undergraduates. These undergraduates, known as Archons, represent the six Districts of Phi Kappa Psi, which divide the nation into roughly equal parts based on the number of chapters represented. Archons are elected during meetings of each District during Woodrow Wilson Leadership Schools, held during odd-numbered years. Four alumni also serve on the Executive Council and are elected at Grand Arch Councils, held during even-numbered years.

Interesting political statement...

The all seeing eye (guardian), the ultimate codex of wisdom...

A surprise ?

Famous Phi-Psis include President Woodrow Wilson, New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, John F. Kennedy Jr, Astronaut Owen Garriott

He was a very, very high ranking member.

I guess you can all play connect the dots !

Classic UO is not just the rules, its also the content and the links with reality, attempting to create a true mirror of the universe below (earth) above (mind).

Am I going too fast ?

I am glad to be your companion.

The other itch about this discussion is the famous argument that has been repeated I dunno how many times and accordingly ignored out of good will is the :

Noone agrees with what is a classic shard exactly. Well a few months ago !

We agreed ! We all finally agreed over a poll and some discussion that the era with murderer long term count is the bare minimum most are asking for.

This was sharpened, polished, all you want.

Of course everything is jello, but yall shouldn't laugh yellow.

Leave it to the egg yolk that I can create.

The gem was in my hands after all, ain't I the only one who hasn't lost his mind after handling it ?

Well... don't look at me like that...

*laughs at himself* ok ok maybe I lost a bit of my mind hehehe

 

[RaDian FlGith]

First, some of us former players were NOT PKs...we just enjoyed the challenge that PKs added to the game.

I have to admit, no matter the game, I've never been the world's best PvPer (or anywhere close), mostly because I never have the time to devote to learning all the ins and outs of not only my own skills, but as importantly, those of others.

However...

It is this exact sentiment that made me choose a PvP realm on World of Warcraft. Without that added dynamic of "Hey, I could be jumped at any moment," or "You, over there, you just stole my herb node, you killed my father, prepare to die," well, WoW would be less exciting.

On the other hand... The primary reason I don't miss Felucca isn't because of the PvP element... Hell, back in the day, I was GM of Great Lakes' largest anti-PK guild (thankfully I had better PvPers in my guild than myself...). The reason I don't miss it is because there's no "honor" left in Felucca, and even back at the tail end of Felucca's prime, the cheats and hacks were already becoming prevalent. Way back when, I could actually sit down and talk to someone who had just killed me, and I could respect that I'd lost a battle. No big loss. Of course, if I sat around and talked enough, my guild would also have arrived on the scene and taken care of business, but that's a side note.

Thing is... I don't miss the grief, I don't miss the garbage that went with it. Sure, WoW has its fair share of jerks, but to be honest, I've never, ever felt like someone was out to destroy my game play experience simply for the sake of doing it; latter days of Felucca, that was the opposite feeling, and to be frank, it's a lot of why Trammel came to be.

So while I have fond memories of Felucca, fond memories of what life was before Trammel, truly, I don't think flipping on a server that's running the old code would ever bring back that experience. The code may be the same, but the players, the experiences, those can never be recreated. It's a memory of 13 years ago...

Still... yes, I can see some people enjoying that ruleset still. If I weren't so permanently embedded on Great Lakes, I'd probably even give it a try if it popped up (I wouldn't because Great Lakes is now, and has been since October 1997, my home). I think there'd need to be a bunch of fixing old garbage in order to make it viable too -- close the hack holes, shut the cheats down, and so forth.

So... long way of saying "I get the feeling."

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Mythic Bioware has no problems for making different servers for their other games to try please any type of players so why not UO. It makes the reources argument kind of weak when they do it for DaoC.

Whole different ball of wax though... DAoC did that before EA had swept them up into the EA Borg Conglomerate.

And... that post doesn't really quantify what kind of development those classic servers are receiving. Which is one of the biggest issues with UO at present. Siege Perilous already doesn't receive attention by and large. Look around the room and look at the raised hands when you ask, "Would you expect a Classic Shard to receive development time?" People aren't just looking for EA to turn on a server and say, "Here, go at it." Most are looking for a reboot to the old days and then continued development along that line, be it bug fixes, new content (appropriate for that server ruleset), and so forth. And those who say they would just play a permanent, non-changing server may think that's the truth... but they'd eventually come to want fixes and additions to keep the game interesting. Mind you, I'm not saying that kind of expectation is a bad thing... it's just beyond the Ultima Online development team scopee

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

It is this exact sentiment that made me choose a PvP realm on World of Warcraft. Without that added dynamic of "Hey, I could be jumped at any moment," or "You, over there, you just stole my herb node, you killed my father, prepare to die," well, WoW would be less exciting.

EXACTLY!! (and I love the Princess Bride reference btw!)

The reason I don't miss it is because there's no "honor" left in Felucca, and even back at the tail end of Felucca's prime, the cheats and hacks were already becoming prevalent. Way back when, I could actually sit down and talk to someone who had just killed me, and I could respect that I'd lost a battle. No big loss. Of course, if I sat around and talked enough, my guild would also have arrived on the scene and taken care of business, but that's a side note.

Thing is... I don't miss the grief, I don't miss the garbage that went with it. Sure, WoW has its fair share of jerks, but to be honest, I've never, ever felt like someone was out to destroy my game play experience simply for the sake of doing it; latter days of Felucca, that was the opposite feeling, and to be frank, it's a lot of why Trammel came to be.

Okay...maybe I should have broken that into parts to respond, but I am going to take a collective stab it at instead.

*Every* game that has a competitive multiplayer aspect has trash talkers. Heck, I have been playing the various Battlefield games since BF 1941 came out, and playing online, you get a great deal of this kind of thing on some servers. It's usually some guy trying to make himself look big in front of his buddy. If you think you get trash talk, try being a girl...I get crap that people would be jailed for in most countries

But it's just a part of the typical testosterone-driven adolescent-minded gamer. If you don't want to put up with all the trash talk, then competitive multiplayer games are not for you. Not everyone enjoys the same thing...no big deal. Personally, I just ignore it. I even had someone smack talking me in StarCraft2!! WTH!

In today's multiplayer gaming worlds, it's almost the norm. However, the kind of behavior you are talking about was really new to people when UO first game out...so a lot of people took it very personally. I did as well...at first. But my brother was playing the game with some of his friends, and they were older, and they explained it to me. They all grew up playing ice hockey. They got in fights, and talked trash to the other team, and all that stuff...so when they started playing UO (in their late teens), they did the same. So I learned to pretty much ignore all of that and just play the game. It really helped me to adjust to the PKs. But, I never "liked" the PKs either. I knew from talking to other players that most UO players disliked PKs, and didn't want to be killed by them. That's why I started the Protectors of Virtue (PoV). We wanted to protect players that felt that they were being victimized by PKs.

Anyway, the point you are making about WoW not being like UO, from what I have seen and heard, is not entirely true...it's just that in WoW, players have a choice, and the ones that are truly what people call "sheep" stay off of servers that are filled with what people call "Wolves". In early UO, there was no option for that. Therefore, I think there was a certain degree of culture shock when you put competitive gamers together with people that were used to playing single player adventure games...Quake meets Myst!

In today's MMOs, there is no real anomosity amongnst the sheep and the wolves (the Mysts and the Quakes) because they are not integrated in any meaningful way...meaning, they don't have to compete. So I think the perceptions have changed...not the behavior.

 

[Zosimus]

And those who say they would just play a permanent, non-changing server may think that's the truth... but they'd eventually come to want fixes and additions to keep the game interesting

I'm glad you said that. Thats the main issues UO has today. It may be ok to add some new deco here and there which may be not a game altering issue. To add full expanions or boosters that are buggy on top of bugs is an epic fail. High Seas atm is proving that. UO devs do give eye candy galore to the player base and changes but that is to make us forget temporary the bugs and game issues. Then we QQ yet again about the bugs and issues here they come again with new eye candy ( Correction: may make you think new but it's last years items dated 2009) but its a revolving cycle. We allowed this fiasco to continue.

Pixel crack has proved itself to be just as addicting as crack is to crack addicts. The sandbox game we fell in love with is not just sand anymore. It was invaded by a cat as its litter box. Thats not a clump a sand we found in our sandbox game anymore

 

[Salty Pete]

I would play again if there was a preAoS shard.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Yes, a bold face lie! Why didn’t we see it sooner! All bow down to Morgana's prescience!

Oh, wait, sorry, I live in reality.

I’m far more inclined to believe Draconi http://vboards.stratics.com/1798180-post86.html than you, a highly disgruntled ex-player with an axe to grind.





[
Hmm. Believe Morgana’s wish fulfillment, or believe someone (Draconi) who actually HAS credibility and knows WTF he’s talking about.

Choices, choices.

Well...I finally got permission to reveal my source on this...


...would you believe it if say...CAL...said it?? You know, the producer of the game?

 

[copycon]

Well...I finally got permission to reveal my source on this...

...would you believe it if say...CAL...said it?? You know, the producer of the game?

I'm confused... What did Cal say?

Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but now I'm curious.

 

[Siteswap]

Hey - remember me?

No. I dont. I dont suppose many others do either. Get over yourself.

Bottom line .. UO is dying.

Yes, yes ... cue all the "the sky is falling" "people have been saying that for years" replies, but nevertheless its true.

It wont be cancelled tomorrow. Or the next day or even next week. But it will be cancelled.

Its a slow death. Numbers have been on the decline for years and EA do NOTHING to address this problem. What they do instead is make cut back after cut back to reduce cost and maximise profits as sub numbers continue to fall.

Unless they do something to increase subs (which they wont) then the writing is on the wall. The time will come when the numbers on the sreadsheets dont add up and then thats it ... plug pulled.

I feel sorry for a lot of you sad bastards (and there are quite a few p[osting here) who it is plainly obvious that UO is your life. Go out and find a REAL life before it is too late. You have a year or two at the most.

 

[Coldren]

I'm confused... What did Cal say?

Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but now I'm curious.

Cliff Notes Version (Best kind, IMO) - They still have the code from a "classic" era, pre-AoS I'd assume, and that they've had it all along.



Well, I look at this three ways:

If Morgana is telling the truth, than we were lied to. Repeatedly.

If we weren't lied to directly, they have very, very poor internal communication, or a practice of hiding information about products from it's own developers.

If what Morgana says is untrue or Cal is incorrect, and they do not actually have the code, it's the grossest kind of mistake you can make as a developer, software company, IT anything - Failure to keep backup and documentation, especially for a commercial product. Something I didn't think highly of when I first learned this.

Any way you look at it, it's about what I'd expect from EA. And they sit around wondering why everyone thinks so poorly of them.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I'm confused... What did Cal say?

Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but now I'm curious.

Sorry, I guess the quote didn't work out the way I wanted.

The context of the conversation was that in the past, one of the developers made the claim that they no longer have the old server code backups...the actual snapshots.

Being someone that has worked in coding, managed development, and has been involved in setting up new code shops, I knew this had to be untrue. So, I asked Cal about it. He confirmed that it is NOT true. They do have the snapshots...the old server code.

I just wouldn't say where I got the information until I cleared with Cal first...which I did, and he said "totally that will be fine. And yeah, I could spend all day defending what we do but it would just get eaten up ... but yes, please offer that info."

And so I did.

I might be a former player with an axe to grind...but I don't post unsubstantiated BS...and despite what a few people will tell you, I am not delusional When I make a statement of fact, I always have something to back it up. If I say that it is my opinion, or use a term like 'I'll bet' or 'probably', then I am not stating a known fact, and likely have no evidence to support my claim.

Thanks for allowing me to share that with the class Cal!

 

[Gunga_Din]

To compete, you have to offer something different than the other MMO's. UO has become too WOW like and if you compare the 2 in terms of tech, your gonna lose more and more people to WOW or other new MMO's.

The only viable server in UO is Atlantic. I've been everywhere, and soon its gonna be the only server you will actually see somebody else in game. My home main shard is becoming a ghost town.

I've slowly closed accounts and soon i'll be down to 1. I grow tired of no risk in the game. Even though Shard of the dead was no classic, the first week I played it, I really enjoyed and actually felt my heart pump when people approached while I was trying to get gold for a house.

Other recommendations. Start closing shards and offer people free transfers of their toons to more populated servers. Get it down to 4 servers.

Going to the bank to unload before I got killed and robbed. Planning my hunting and taking extra care not to lose what precious items I had. Then I saw a gargoyle etc and kind of lost interest. But for that brief moment, I felt the risk of having an open world. I didn't think much of it till I returned to my regular habitat. Since then, I've really missed that feeling of not knowing if the approaching person would be a friend or foe, would he help me or slaughter me?

Kind of bored right now to be honest. Think i'll take some time off and explore some newer games. Either way, the classic shard must be introduced very soon or some legit news of its creation or I fear its gonna get nasty around here.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Well, I look at this three ways:

If Morgana is telling the truth, than we were lied to. Repeatedly.

If we weren't lied to directly, they have very, very poor internal communication, or a practice of hiding information about products from it's own developers.

If what Morgana says is untrue or Cal is incorrect, and they do not actually have the code, it's the grossest kind of mistake you can make as a developer, software company, IT anything - Failure to keep backup and documentation, especially for a commercial product. Something I didn't think highly of when I first learned this.

Any way you look at it, it's about what I'd expect from EA. And they sit around wondering why everyone thinks so poorly of them.

In their defense, sometimes you have to say things that are not entirely true in business in order to prevent PR nightmares. Obviously, at this point in time, Cal felt that there was no harm in letting that particular cat out of the bag, otherwise he would not have told me the truth on it, and then cleared me to spill it.

But don't hold it against the previous devs. It is likely that someone above them made that the "official line".

On the upside, since they do have the code, that is one less argument against a Classic Shard. It would not have to be a complete, from the ground, re-write...which quells some, not all, of the argument regarding resources should they choose to implement the shard using old code. However, knowing what I know, something tells me that just throwing the old code up on a server and making an older client available for download is probably not going to cut it. But it sure would be an easier solution.

 

[Coldren]

......

 

[copycon]

Sorry, I guess the quote didn't work out the way I wanted.

The context of the conversation was that in the past, one of the developers made the claim that they no longer have the old server code backups...the actual snapshots.

Being someone that has worked in coding, managed development, and has been involved in setting up new code shops, I knew this had to be untrue. So, I asked Cal about it. He confirmed that it is NOT true. They do have the snapshots...the old server code.

I just wouldn't say where I got the information until I cleared with Cal first...which I did, and he said "totally that will be fine. And yeah, I could spend all day defending what we do but it would just get eaten up ... but yes, please offer that info."

And so I did.

I might be a former player with an axe to grind...but I don't post unsubstantiated BS...and despite what a few people will tell you, I am not delusional When I make a statement of fact, I always have something to back it up. If I say that it is my opinion, or use a term like 'I'll bet' or 'probably', then I am not stating a known fact, and likely have no evidence to support my claim.

Thanks for allowing me to share that with the class Cal!

Ahh, I see now. It all makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

I guess the more important point is that it may not quite be usable or even worth considering the thought given how many client/server code changes (read: bug fixes, detection algorithms etc) have been made since that era.

That's all controversial though. I believe that the bare truth is that they do (or can) have the ability to retrieve the code base from any era that they choose, but adapting it to the current client/server versions and deeming it usable is another matter entirely.

Others may believe differently, but that is just my opinion on the subject and I thought I'd share.

 

[Coldren]

In their defense, sometimes you have to say things that are not entirely true in business in order to prevent PR nightmares. Obviously, at this point in time, Cal felt that there was no harm in letting that particular cat out of the bag, otherwise he would not have told me the truth on it, and then cleared me to spill it.

But don't hold it against the previous devs. It is likely that someone above them made that the "official line".

On the upside, since they do have the code, that is one less argument against a Classic Shard. It would not have to be a complete, from the ground, re-write...which quells some, not all, of the argument regarding resources should they choose to implement the shard using old code. However, knowing what I know, something tells me that just throwing the old code up on a server and making an older client available for download is probably not going to cut it. But it sure would be an easier solution.

This.. Wow.. I don't know who saw my previous posts.. Very pissed. Even started to post a link about it on MMORPG, but thought better of it a second after I hit post, went back and deleted the text and title, so hopefully nobody saw it or paid attention to it... Because when things go down, and they will, I don't want to be the one who is responsible for the repercussions. I don't want to see anyone lose their job over this, no matter how mad I am.

Nothing good will come of this. Nothing should. This is a cat that not only should not have been let out of the bag, when they found the cat, they should have shot it and buried it while it was still in the bag.

As someone who always gave EA and the Devs the benefit of the doubt.. I just can't give it to them anymore.

Why should anyone ever believe a single thing they say anymore? Why should I trust them? Why should I give a company like this one iota of attention, let alone money?

It's now gone being beyond just being about the feasibility of a classic shard, at least to me.

 

[Zosimus]

I agree that the "time and resource" excuses were all gas. It does not take a rocket science that the code was still there. If the code was gone half of what we have in UO would be gone. It may have changed over the years but the original codes had to be saved. EA wouldnt let codes like that just vanish because of copy right reasons alone. If free sharders can make shards in that specific era's it had to ring a bell the codes were there but some just ignored it.

 

[Aragon100]

I would like to have a yes or no to a classic shard.

If no then i would like to hear the reason why a classic shard is not good business for EA/Mythic.

Since it appear they have the old servercode why not accept the subscription money from the ones that want a classic shard?

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Just because the old code is there doesn't mean it is usable without a great deal of work. I just wanted the record set straight.

 

[Aragon100]

Just because the old code is there doesn't mean it is usable without a great deal of work. I just wanted the record set straight.

I see.

Well it is good to hear they still have the old code intact.

 

[koris]

I hope we do get an answer before end of year. I need to know if i should transfer both accounts to a more populated shard or scrap it all for a pre-aos shard.

 

[Meat Elemental]

I hope so too...to see an end to these topics one way or another

 

[Llamfia]

UO u ruined my dreams

 

[_Zen]

Unless EA is going to give us the best Christmas present ever, I don't think there will be a classic shard.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I hope so too...to see an end to these topics one way or another

There's a really easy way to see the end of these topics...


...don't read them.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

I'm confused... What did Cal say?

Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but now I'm curious.

Sorry, I guess the quote didn't work out the way I wanted.

The context of the conversation was that in the past, one of the developers made the claim that they no longer have the old server code backups...the actual snapshots.

Being someone that has worked in coding, managed development, and has been involved in setting up new code shops, I knew this had to be untrue. So, I asked Cal about it. He confirmed that it is NOT true. They do have the snapshots...the old server code.

I just wouldn't say where I got the information until I cleared with Cal first...which I did, and he said "totally that will be fine. And yeah, I could spend all day defending what we do but it would just get eaten up ... but yes, please offer that info."

And so I did.

I might be a former player with an axe to grind...but I don't post unsubstantiated BS...and despite what a few people will tell you, I am not delusional When I make a statement of fact, I always have something to back it up. If I say that it is my opinion, or use a term like 'I'll bet' or 'probably', then I am not stating a known fact, and likely have no evidence to support my claim.

Thanks for allowing me to share that with the class Cal!

Until Cal steps up and says this, it is still unsubstantiated. Anyone could say that Cal has said anything. He very well may have said it, but until its posted using his account, its little more than rumor.

But this begs the question. WHY would Draconi lie? He has no motive to, however, Cal does.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

*sigh*

Well, I suppose I don't mind you calling me a liar, but I guess you felt you needed to do it.

I will leave it up to Cal to 'man up' here and not leave me in the lurch. I know he doesn't have time to deal with childish crap like this...but I know that he is an honest man. I will not post anything from our private conversations that I do not have his express consent to post. So if he chooses not to back me up here, I guess that is his choice to make.

 

[Gunga_Din]

I say just throw out whatever old code they have that doesn't have trammel in it. Then work from there. There is just not enough people to fine tune this project anymore, so lets just have at it !!!

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I was under the impression that:

a) Personal attacks were considered "trolling"

and

b) Mention of specific free shards was forbidden.

Would you like to remove this crap, or should a mod do it for you?

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

*sigh*

Well, I suppose I don't mind you calling me a liar, but I guess you felt you needed to do it.

I will leave it up to Cal to 'man up' here and not leave me in the lurch. I know he doesn't have time to deal with childish crap like this...but I know that he is an honest man. I will not post anything from our private conversations that I do not have his express consent to post. So if he chooses not to back me up here, I guess that is his choice to make.

Just: WHOA!

No-one called you a liar ... nor Cal ...
and there is >no need< for Cal to "man up" ... you be the one that brought the gossip in here ...
yep
gossip
things said and repeated, that "on their own" may be true ...
however
Did Cal say: "I'm looking at the transcripts/snapshots/server code .... and I recognize this as original whatever ..."

not bloody likely ... and ... Cal's "code skill" is SERIOUSLY in question
(not having been established, nor even claimed >FROM WHAT I HAVE READ< to have the remotest comprehension of "codeing")

This *waves hands in an encompassing gesture*
is ALL due to him saying "hope"

humph!


*ahem*
March 17, 2006:
UO Producer Darkscribe Says Classic Ultima Online Servers are "on the table"

whoa! it was a deadhorse THEN
All of this has happened before, and it will all happen again.
PeterPan 1953

see also

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Just: WHOA!

No-one called you a liar ... nor Cal ...

Anyone could say that Cal has said anything.

If I say that someone has said something that they did not say...then that makes me a liar. You can choose to dance around semantics if you'd like, but the implication was quite clear.

Also...

WHY would Draconi lie? He has no motive to, however, Cal does.

By implying that Cal has a reason to lie, it also implies that he did.

and there is >no need< for Cal to "man up" ... you be the one that brought the gossip in here ...
yep
gossip
things said and repeated, that "on their own" may be true ...
however
Did Cal say: "I'm looking at the transcripts/snapshots/server code .... and I recognize this as original whatever ..."

What was said was..."Cal, one of the other Devs said you guys no longer have the old server backups from before Trammel...is this true". His response was "No. That is definitely not true!"

That does not leave much to the imagination. I trust Cal on his word...and from the way I see it, Cal had absolutely no reason to lie to me about, considering the fact that the conversation was in confidence. I asked him if I could post that information here, and he said yes...otherwise, I would not have done it.