Would you tolerate a player harassing another player?

[Merlin]

What we need is in-game chat moderators. Let the gm's do gm stuff, let messana do messana stuff, and let the community moderate the community.
How thise moderators should be elected, appointed etc etc, is another story.

I dont buy the, if u dont like what u read, u can leave attitude.
If people cant behave they need to be punished HARD.

This game should not expend resources on policing in game chat.

Then the police would get called. The person who punched you gets charged with Assault, and you get charged with Assault with a deadly weapon or attempted murder.

Doesn't really work out well for you in that situation, would have been better to stick with what Angel said

Meeting violence with violence is never the best plan.

OK - maybe in the case of a school-aged bully you certainly don't pull a gun out... but absolutely kids have to be taught to fight back and not just sit back and be the victim. Here in New York City... kids who let themselves be bullied will be targeted for more of it if others see this and think they can get away with it. The second that kid fights back and pops someone in the lip (or an older sibling stands up for them in similar fashion), it discourages others from thinking they're going to get away with it without consequences. Standing your ground and using physical force might not be the first response, but you certainly can't remove the option from the table. We live in a dog eat dog world, brother.

 

[Lord Frodo]

you all should be careful....she might start "doxxing" ( is that even a word?) you all.....and then turn violent!

dox
däks/
verb
informal
gerund or present participle: doxxing

1. search for and publish private or identifying information about (a particular individual) on the Internet, typically with malicious intent.
   "hackers and online vigilantes routinely dox both public and private figures"

 

[Medallia]

dox
däks/
verb
informal
gerund or present participle: doxxing

1. search for and publish private or identifying information about (a particular individual) on the Internet, typically with malicious intent.
   "hackers and online vigilantes routinely dox both public and private figures"

A good need to know!

 

[Promathia]

Honestly, I feel like a lot of UO players have never played another MMO in their lives. You think UO's general chat is bad? Sheesh

Chat is the same in every MMO I have played and GMs sure dont do anything about it in those games either. Don't like profanity? Use the damn filter. Don't like the trolls? Put them on ignore.

The only thing that ever seems to get policed in chat in other games is racism and I am completely fine with that.


** Want a real solution? UO needs to fix the ignore system, plain and simple. Get it changed so putting someone on ignore doesn't also hide their spellcasting. Boom, problem solved.

 

[Hannes Erich]

I've played at least a dozen MMOs over the years and can attest to that. That said, rules are rules. If Jirel decides to follow the proper channels patiently and consistently, and stop getting her nose dirty, she could eventually get some players banned.

Publishing peoples real-life details has been against the ROC since day one. It's one of the worst things you can do. In one case in UO history it led to murder. Over a game item. I hope Jirel follows the GM steps (published in this very thread), and stays patient but consistent for as long as it takes to get her issue resolved. She may deserve a warning or punishment herself, but if she threatened to do it but did not do it, then she is not guilty of doing it. In any case I hope she understands how thinly stretched GM support is likely to be for an unpopular, nearly twenty year-old game. And she probably won't win this one. Sounds like she essentially doxxed herself (also against the ROC, if less severe).

I think perhaps the rest of us are sometimes the problem ( myself included) she makes some convoluted, immature, somewhat moronic, attention seeking post. The rest of us feed her needs by responding to her either negatively or positively. I wonder if the best think we could all do is just totally ignore what ever she posts. Make it a uhall sticky rule not to reply.

I realize you weren't 100% serious about this, because you followed it up with an "if only life could be so easy" sentiment. But I hope some of us will always be willing to reward positive participation with positive participation. If people won't do that, well that's the definition of embitteredness. Now, where I live at least, it's a free country and there's no law against embitteredness. Also, everyone has a different limit, that's what ignore features are for. But it's a game community. If Jirel shows up and makes an interesting post or asks a new question about the game, she can have all the likes and/or comments from me that anyone else here would deserve.

 

[Aran]

Going to need a citation on that doxing -> murder claim

 

[Hannes Erich]

Well, I used to keep a couple of news article bookmarks handy, but that went the way of the dinosaurs at least a few computers ago. So I'm sorry, you'll just have to file this away in the "Is he pulling my leg?" category, but I remember nearly crapping my pants over it when my brother sent me a link (if someone has an extant source, please share with us). Unfortunately, I've just discovered that if you Google terms like 'Ultima Online murder sword', you'll find a lot of quibbling over the reputation system. "Doxing" was not a widely used term yet.

It was not front-page above the fold news. It wouldn't be even today, as it did not involve a gun. This was way back when UO's economy was a big deal and you had guys like Markee Dragon raking in thousands upon thousands. A guy who reportedly suffered from mental health issues had his stuff stolen by a friend; special mention was made of a sword they argued about. After a heated online exchange, the sword's new owner dared the guy to show up at his house, but then backpedaled and wouldn't give an address. So their guild dug it up (all innocent fun, right?). After which, the guy drove across the country (United States), rang his friend's doorbell, and stabbed him in the chest in front of his mother. I can't remember if he died there or at the hospital.

I admire your skepticism and share it in spirit; but I hope you're not merely expressing disbelief that this could be our world.

 

[Lady Storm]

To the Op:
Common Sense tells us if another is being harassed to step in. This can take many forms. In the game, Once you hit the harassment button on the help menu this records the situation and a GM can then determine action. You can then also take pic's of the (yes multi pic's) and e mail them to the Dev for action on the offending party. And in the mean time help break off the harassment by making it possible for the party who is being harassed to leave the area... which is as most can tell you is the best way to stop this.
Many times the person who is harassing has an axe to grind and will keep it up no matter what is said or done but you can also turn off chat.. and have peace and quiet, both I agree is the best thing in the first place... walk off and turn off chat and ignore them... it usually pisses them off.

 

[Piotr]

Well, I used to keep a couple of news article bookmarks handy, but that went the way of the dinosaurs at least a few computers ago. So I'm sorry, you'll just have to file this away in the "Is he pulling my leg?" category, but I remember nearly crapping my pants over it when my brother sent me a link (if someone has an extant source, please share with us). Unfortunately, I've just discovered that if you Google terms like 'Ultima Online murder sword', you'll find a lot of quibbling over the reputation system. "Doxing" was not a widely used term yet.

It was not front-page above the fold news. It wouldn't be even today, as it did not involve a gun. This was way back when UO's economy was a big deal and you had guys like Markee Dragon raking in thousands upon thousands. A guy who reportedly suffered from mental health issues had his stuff stolen by a friend; special mention was made of a sword they argued about. After a heated online exchange, the sword's new owner dared the guy to show up at his house, but then backpedaled and wouldn't give an address. So their guild dug it up (all innocent fun, right?). After which, the guy drove across the country (United States), rang his friend's doorbell, and stabbed him in the chest in front of his mother. I can't remember if he died there or at the hospital.

I admire your skepticism and share it in spirit; but I hope you're not merely expressing disbelief that this could be our world.

I think the event you refer to, actually took place in Shanghai and it was two Legend of Mir III players.

It's # 5 on this list: 10 Deaths Caused by Video Games.

 

[Hannes Erich]

That certainly looks similar, and the timing of its publication is right, but at least one of the articles did mention Ultima. Not in the headline (there was nothing about Ultima Online in either of the headlines I remember seeing). However, these were small local news websites, not the NY or LA times. Could the game have been misreported? Could my memory be inaccurate? I guess I wouldn't be surprised if it were either or both; that's the first time in several years I've told the story. In any case, thanks for posting evidence that it happened to somebody, somewhere. But "Ultima Online" was printed in at least one article; me and one of my brothers talked at length at the time about how weird it was. It was about a year after I had begun a several year-long hiatus from the game.

#10 is something that has happened several times over the years. Cause of death is sometimes attributed to dehydration, deep vein thrombosis, seizure, stroke, or simply exhaustion.

If you know somebody who plays games for extreme stretches, please encourage them to be healthier.

Sorry for the derail. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned the murder over a digital weapon! It seems to have been a distraction from my post's message and the OP's.

 

[Thrakkar]

This thread is not the only one about this topic, the reason people are frustrated in this one is because this is probably the 20th thread from the original poster within the last few months about pretty much this same topic. The first 5 or so threads people tried to be helpful, but after that they are pretty much all out of patience since the person asks the same questions every time even though they were given answers the first 5 times.

It's pretty much the pent up frustrations of everyone seeing the same type of thread show up from the same person every couple weeks.

All of you should ask yourself the following question:
Are you under the impression, that she is learning something here? Right.... See?
All of her threads could as well be seen as passive bulling as well.
So you should most probably have a taste of your own medicine: Ignore her and her threads... problem solved...

 

[Theron]

Wow this still ongoing?
Is the OP still around, because I haven't seen any comments lately.

 

[Capt. Lucky]

Wow this still ongoing?
Is the OP still around, because I haven't seen any comments lately.

It's been a slow week. We really don't need the OP anymore at this point to keep this rolling

 

[Uriah Heep]

LOL Capt. *shakes head*

 

[Capt. Lucky]

This game should not expend resources on policing in game chat..

Your entitled to your opinion of how the game could be run. However currently vulgar language/harassment *is* against the ROC. Anyone that is diligent about reporting someone will get results. Naturally you need to read my earlier post about how it's done properly. Or go find it for yourself When done properly the GMs are obligated to act. That's their job. If not reported properly the GMs have an excuse to move on to the next problem. There is a way to report language however it's not intuitive. But there is a way. So if someone chooses to clean up their shard they have a system available to do that. If they don't want their shard being like NYC Hey I love Howard Stern as much as anyone, but it doesn't hurt to show some class either. It won't kill ya. I'm certainly not a prude but there's a time and place for everything. Wit is so much more entertaining than adolescent vulgarity. The problem with wit is you need to be intelligent to utilize it.

 

[Cymidei]

BBC NEWS | Technology | Chinese gamer sentenced to life

Is this the murder you were talking about?

 

[OREOGL]

Your entitled to your opinion of how the game could be run. However currently vulgar language/harassment *is* against the ROC. Anyone that is diligent about about reporting someone will get results. Naturally you need to read my earlier post about how it's done properly. Or go find it for yourself When done properly the GMs are obligated to act. That's their job. If not reported properly the GMs have an excuse to move on to the next problem. There is a way to report language however it's not intuitive. But there is a way. So if someone chooses to clean up their shard they have a system available to do that. If they don't want their shard being like NYC Hey I love Howard Stern as much as anyone, but it doesn't hurt to show some class either. It won't kill ya. I'm certainly not a prude but there's a time and place for everything. Wit is so much more entertaining than adolescent vulgarity. The problem with wit is you need to be intelligent to utilize it.

To play devil advocate;

Scripting and speed hacking is illegal too, but I don't feel it necessary to alot more time to the lesser of two evils when you can ignore and opt out of chat.

 

[Merlin]

Your entitled to your opinion of how the game could be run. However currently vulgar language/harassment *is* against the ROC. Anyone that is diligent about about reporting someone will get results. Naturally you need to read my earlier post about how it's done properly. Or go find it for yourself When done properly the GMs are obligated to act. That's their job. If not reported properly the GMs have an excuse to move on to the next problem. There is a way to report language however it's not intuitive. But there is a way. So if someone chooses to clean up their shard they have a system available to do that. If they don't want their shard being like NYC Hey I love Howard Stern as much as anyone, but it doesn't hurt to show some class either. It won't kill ya. I'm certainly not a prude but there's a time and place for everything. Wit is so much more entertaining than adolescent vulgarity. The problem with wit is you need to be intelligent to utilize it.

This game has limited resources that could be much better used in places outside of policing chat. This is a prime example of where people need to get thicker skin and stop whining.

The "vulgarity" we see in general chat of UO is extremely tame compared to other games. You have the option of using ignore button if you see something you don't like. Or furthermore, move to another channel.

Also, I prefer a much less regulated "wild west" version of Ultima Online overall. I would prefer more free to more restriction. I know that it means dealing with some idiots in there from time to time, but that's a better option than dealing with the drama that a 'gen chat cop' would bring. That's just my opinion.

 

[Capt. Lucky]

This game has limited resources that could be much better used in places outside of policing chat. This is a prime example of where people need to get thicker skin and stop whining.

The "vulgarity" we see in general chat of UO is extremely tame compared to other games. You have the option of using ignore button if you see something you don't like. Or furthermore, move to another channel.

Also, I prefer a much less regulated "wild west" version of Ultima Online overall. That's just my opinion.

We do have GM resources. I say use them! I think people should clean up their act and attempt to behave like adults. And I have the option to report them if they choose not to. Don't cry to me, petition EA and Broadsword if you want the ROC amended. I do realize some people have no regard for the rules of the game but I do. The whole hacking, cheating, disregard the rules is in no way something that benefits the game. Sorry, I'm not buying it. I suppose if Billy jumps off a cliff we should all do it? If you prefer other games that's your option. Just my opinion.

 

[Grazz't1970]

I love lamp

 

[Aran]

We do have GM resources. I say use them!

Uh, what game are you playing exactly?

 

[Capt. Lucky]

Uh, what game are you playing exactly?

They've helped my lately. Maybe they don't like you

 

[Riply]

I dunno about anyone else, but this game has so much to offer and do. If I hear players in general chat mouthing off concerning PVP comments I just either ignore it ot turn it off. I never really had players harrassing me and I have been playing more then the majority of the players. If players would happen to bother me I would just move to another area of the game which has happened on a rare occassion. More of a situation when an area is being a popular area due to new items. For the most part at least on Europa we have a great group of players. Just hope the original poster can adapt and relax and have fun, its just a game best not to take things to a personal level IMO.

 

[Aran]

They've helped my lately. Maybe they don't like you

I never have issues with GM service, but we definitely don't have it to spare.

 

[Fridgster]

Can't help to muse that if trammel indeed was never created, would bullying ever be a major issue? Mind you this is coming fron a life long "trammie". Siege seems like a perfect example. I havn't played siege often, however trash talk and ignorant behavior seem to be at a minimum.

 

[WootSauce]

Is this thread still a thing? How is this still a thing?

 

[Aran]

Every pressurized system needs a purge valve

 

[Hannes Erich]

For anybody who was following the murder story non-comical relief (something every thread needs! Right? No? Yeah, you're probably right....), I asked my brother about it yesterday. He said I was wrong, and that at some point, the game might have changed to Ultima in my memory because the game was actually either Lineage or Lineage II, which Richard Garriott had a hand in (it was Garriott's penance to South Korea's NCSoft for their publishing Tabula Rasa). I told my brother about this thread and that people said it was actually China's Legend of Mir. He said you're all wrong lol. He's very certain lol. We both have the memories of 100 year-old men, but he has a harder time admitting it.

I guess it's time for me to stop telling that story unless I'm prepared to work on a good poker face.

 

[Uvtha]

Can't help to muse that if trammel indeed was never created, would bullying ever be a major issue? Mind you this is coming fron a life long "trammie". Siege seems like a perfect example. I havn't played siege often, however trash talk and ignorant behavior seem to be at a minimum.

Depends on how you look at it. I can recall several occasions where the shard as a whole made attempts to make life so hard that certain individuals would feel forced to stop playing. Obviously, it was a form of supposed player justice when someone behaved in a way that the majority of the player base felt was unconscionable, sort of a "care-bear-stare" kind of thing, but still.

Of course, there were plenty of reds that reveled in spoiling people's day, but I don't know if that counts as bullying either, as it was generally non-targeted.

I do personally think that tram helped to foster an entitled and generally anti-social attitude in a lot of players because it helped change the focus from experience to achievement. Where a "good day" moved from having and encounter that left you with a good story to tell, or making a friend, to having gotten a good drop after hours of mindless grinding. A more generally desired state of affairs because people value personal security so desperately, but a vastly inferior way to experience a game, or life for that matter, if you'll forgive my waxing philosophical.

 

[Hannes Erich]

Can't say I disagree with any of that. I still enjoy UO but it's not the same game. From 97 through the early 00's, I was part of one of the biggest "do it all" guilds, we roleplayed, we cornered markets, and we trained mercilessly to hunt l33t murderers, who consequently had to endure the torture (I'd imagine) of being killed by Elizabethan English-speaking do-gooders. Those were the days. We were protected by ourselves and our guild village, not game mechanics.

The split provided all the proof anyone needs that community (at least of the caliber old-timers witnessed) requires peril, something an anthropologist might have told us beforehand. So much for the grand social experiment. That being said, I don't need everything to be a life-changing experience, I also have Plants and Zombies installed on my computer. I loved Age of Shadows, and I kind of think that everything that has come since is just AoS with bonus pixels, but it was no longer a community experience for me. But I adapted! I play UO quite a lot these days, alone, not immersed; it's just a hack-and-slash dungeon crawler with deep crafting now. Best one of its kind IMO.

You win some, you lose some! Everything the link in my sig promised.

 

[Uvtha]

Can't say I disagree with any of that. I still enjoy UO but it's not the same game. From 97 through the early 00's, I was part of one of the biggest "do it all" guilds, we roleplayed, we cornered markets, and we trained mercilessly to hunt l33t murderers, who consequently had to endure the torture (I'd imagine) of being killed by Elizabethan English-speaking do-gooders. Those were the days. We were protected by ourselves and our guild village, not game mechanics.

The split provided all the proof anyone needs that community (at least of the caliber old-timers witnessed) requires peril, something an anthropologist might have told us beforehand. So much for the grand social experiment. That being said, I don't need everything to be a life-changing experience, I also have Plants and Zombies installed on my computer. I loved Age of Shadows, and I kind of think that everything that has come since is just AoS with bonus pixels, but it was no longer a community experience for me. But I adapted! I play UO quite a lot these days, alone, not immersed; it's just a hack-and-slash dungeon crawler with deep crafting now. Best one of its kind IMO.

You win some, you lose some! Everything the link in my sig promised.

Oh I agree not all games need to be like that (taking a break from fallout 4 to post this) but I feel like in an online game the whole purpose is to interact with others. If its a sandbox game, rather than a competition game (like a fps or rocket league or something) then it really should be about how people interact and effect each others virtual lives. Like I said, unfortunately, that's not what most people want, so if a game starts out with that sort of a goal in mind eventually if it becomes successful there will be a mounting call in the community to increase safeguards and protection.

I don't really even mean to bash people who don't want that, I think a lot of people have stressful, bad, or even great real lives, and they generally just want to plug in and veg for a few hours killing virtual monsters. It's completely valid. I just wish more people would want... MORE out of their video game experience so that more games I actually want to play would get made.

I would say 90% of my golden UO memories are pre-ren, and they are all centered around having met someone cool or having had some crazy interaction with another person, or several people. Like you said, UO is still fairly unique and still fun, but a lot of what made this game a quality experience have been replaced with the more generic MMO models of generally dull time investment for virtual reward. Something I think is more "satisfying" than fun or enriching, because it's just gaming your brain more than anything.

 

[FrejaSP]

Can't help to muse that if trammel indeed was never created, would bullying ever be a major issue? Mind you this is coming fron a life long "trammie". Siege seems like a perfect example. I havn't played siege often, however trash talk and ignorant behavior seem to be at a minimum.

I do believe it was a big mistake to make the split the way it was done.
They should had keeped the old shards with fel ruleset but without stat loss (think there was 8-10 or so), then they should had made new shard with Trammel only ruleset. Red chars would become blue here as murderer counts would not be on this new Trammel shards.
If they had made the new Trammel only shards as copies of the old shards and then let the players choose where to play, it would had worked much better than the split.

Lets say, I had chars on Atlantic and Drachenfeels, there would had been a copy of each with Trammel only ruleset. I could had stayed on the old shards and players who wanted Trammel could had played on the new shards. This way player towns and everything would had stayed as it was. There would not had been any need to make Siege and no need for a an extra facet as a copy of Britainia and lost land. Players would had had time to choose where to stay before the one house on an account rule made them choose primary house on the shard with the ruleset of their choice.

I believe both the Trammel shards and the Fel shards would had done well and it would had much more fair for all and we would not had seen all the Tram/Fel hate as noone was forced to move, they still had their char and house where it was and player towns would had survived better as they was not forced to live in Fel or move to Trammel.

Sadly Devs choose to add the Trammel facet to old shards.

 

[Jirel of Joiry]

Depends on how you look at it. I can recall several occasions where the shard as a whole made attempts to make life so hard that certain individuals would feel forced to stop playing. Obviously, it was a form of supposed player justice when someone behaved in a way that the majority of the player base felt was unconscionable, sort of a "care-bear-stare" kind of thing, but still.

Of course, there were plenty of reds that reveled in spoiling people's day, but I don't know if that counts as bullying either, as it was generally non-targeted.

I do personally think that tram helped to foster an entitled and generally anti-social attitude in a lot of players because it helped change the focus from experience to achievement. Where a "good day" moved from having an encounter that left you with a good story to tell, or making a friend, to having gotten a good drop after hours of mindless grinding. A more generally desired state of affairs because people value personal security so desperately, but a vastly inferior way to experience a game, or life for that matter, if you'll forgive my waxing philosophical.

Wow! I really got a conversation going here.

I have to agree with Uvtha, Tram has been a hot bed of negativity.
With the Fel rule set if a person makes a bunch of newbie chars with either your or a guild-mate's name you can mow them like grass. This is the player justice that I think Lord British had in mind.

However with Tram, I have seen more ways than I care to count of "Trammie PvP", that is using the game mechanics to annoy another player in Tram, without that player being able to do anything about it.

Its very, very frustrating. I think that's why Siege holds such an appeal for UO old-timers. Seriously how long would seven Kelmo clones last on Siege? I do believe they'd have an extremely short life span. However, I also think that having one character per account makes Siege players less likely to waste character slots on making newbies.
Unlike production shards where each account has seven chars, and therefore are more apt to waste character slots on newbies. For example if you have four accounts then you have 4 characters on Siege, but on production shards you have 28 characters.

I think its really a difficult and complex issue that doesn't readily lend itself to any easy answers.

As for me personally, I have reported my problem player to the GM. I put all of the characters this person made on ignore. I emailed Mesanna screen captures of my journal. I have stayed out of the game for a few days to let things quieten down. I try to use Gen Chat as little as possible. Lastly I spend my time hunting where anyone wanting to bug me risks repetitive death from the spawn. I'm going to try to enjoy UO before I have to head back to classes.

In the end this problem player is going to end up turning the whole shard against him, because while he's targeting me he's also disrupting other players game play with his negative behaviors.

I'll just sit back and let him dig his own hole.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[Uvtha]

Seriously how long would seven Kelmo clones last on Siege?

I honestly wouldn't be at all surprised if there had been mock Kemlos. He got a lot of (imo undue) hate from certain people when he was a mod.

 

[FrejaSP]

We had seen a few fake chars on Siege but with wrong Guild tag or without tag, noone care.

 

[Hannes Erich]

Don't give him ideas, human cloning is right around the corner.

Jokes aside, best update this thread could have had, Jirel, awesome post.

 

[Ansel]

I do believe it was a big mistake to make the split the way it was done.
They should had keeped the old shards with fel ruleset but without stat loss (think there was 8-10 or so), then they should had made new shard with Trammel only ruleset. Red chars would become blue here as murderer counts would not be on this new Trammel shards.
If they had made the new Trammel only shards as copies of the old shards and then let the players choose where to play, it would had worked much better than the split.

Lets say, I had chars on Atlantic and Drachenfeels, there would had been a copy of each with Trammel only ruleset. I could had stayed on the old shards and players who wanted Trammel could had played on the new shards. This way player towns and everything would had stayed as it was. There would not had been any need to make Siege and no need for a an extra facet as a copy of Britainia and lost land. Players would had had time to choose where to stay before the one house on an account rule made them choose primary house on the shard with the ruleset of their choice.

I believe both the Trammel shards and the Fel shards would had done well and it would had much more fair for all and we would not had seen all the Tram/Fel hate as noone was forced to move, they still had their char and house where it was and player towns would had survived better as they was not forced to live in Fel or move to Trammel.

Sadly Devs choose to add the Trammel facet to old shards.

I was there for that one, Freja, and I can assure you that the devs were furious about it. The lead programmer walked into the office of the executive producer and shouted, "Sir, I no longer have faith in your leadership!" And he wasn't a hothead. Nor was he alone.

Understand that the entire development team in those days came from the community. This was the Live Team. The original team had moved on to UO II and Privateer Online.

It was a call made from high, high above. And while many remember it as the thing that killed the game - and why not....their friends were leaving - the move was nothing but a success by the numbers. UO was sinking below 100k subs when the change was made. Within two months it was over 200k subs and would later peak at 275.

I'm not sure it really matters now whether the devs made the call or not. But I feel I must stick up for them because their passion for the game ran deep and it ran hot. And at the core of that was a belief that UO was, despite magic and fictional mythology, a simulation. As such it had physical laws, many of which we now see expressed in the Felucca rule set and in the rule set applying to guilds.

And, getting back on topic, among those laws was if your behavior as a player fell too far outside community sensibility you could not exist in any living form for more than a moment or two

 

[Uvtha]

I was there for that one, Freja, and I can assure you that the devs were furious about it. The lead programmer walked into the office of the executive producer and shouted, "Sir, I no longer have faith in your leadership!" And he wasn't a hothead. Nor was he alone.

Understand that the entire development team in those days came from the community. This was the Live Team. The original team had moved on to UO II and Privateer Online.

It was a call made from high, high above. And while many remember it as the thing that killed the game - and why not....their friends were leaving - the move was nothing but a success by the numbers. UO was sinking below 100k subs when the change was made. Within two months it was over 200k subs and would later peak at 275.

I'm not sure it really matters now whether the devs made the call or not. But I feel I must stick up for them because their passion for the game ran deep and it ran hot. And at the core of that was a belief that UO was, despite magic and fictional mythology, a simulation. As such it had physical laws, many of which we now see expressed in the Felucca rule set and in the rule set applying to guilds.

And, getting back on topic, among those laws was if your behavior as a player fell too far outside community sensibility you could not exist in any living form for more than a moment or two

Yeah, I think most agreed that change were needed back then, but of course tram just seemed like such a terrible idea. Even a just a pvp switch would have been 100% better. I remember all those thriving little player communities just drying up and turning to dust in the weeks and months after the split. Some reestablished in tram (where everyone was) but it was clear it wasn't anywhere near the same thing. Old old stuff.

 

[Giggles]

As a female in the pvp world, I have my daily fair share of harassment. I have been called every single female derogatory name you could imagine. I'm not taken seriously just because I am female cause after all... women can't pvp! When I kill people some of them get a little extra upset just because they got owned by a girl.
A few yeas ago I would entertain the smack talk, and dish it right back. All that did was fuel it and make it worse and worse and worse. That's when it turned into a group of crazies that went as far as to track down my rl information.

Now? I log in, kill people, and log out. OR I log in, kill people, switch servers, kill more people, and log out. When the smack talk happens I ignore it completely, or I make random funny comments. Well at least I find them hilarious, not sure about my enemies. I don't **** talk, I don't insult people, I don't call anyone noobs, I just play my game and let them have their little emotional meltdowns by themselves. You notice how quick they lose their steam when you don't entertain their antics. Its not fun harassing people who completely ignore the fact that you exist.

In RL I am very happily married to my soul mate, 9 years and going strong! I am also mommy of two teenagers (yeah... it sucks...). I have a full time job, and I'm fixing to also go to college full time starting in 2 weeks!
However, In game I am a... (Insert creative derogatory female remark here), I weight 700 pounds, and I live in a tailor, and on the weekends I live in my moms basement. OH I am also on welfare too!

So as you can see, I don't have any reason to allow what people say in a game effect me on a personal level. I have no reason to expect the community or my friends defend me against crazy talk.... Long story short you really just need to ignore people like that.

 

[Ansel]

Yeah, I think most agreed that change were needed back then, but of course tram just seemed like such a terrible idea. Even a just a pvp switch would have been 100% better. I remember all those thriving little player communities just drying up and turning to dust in the weeks and months after the split. Some reestablished in tram (where everyone was) but it was clear it wasn't anywhere near the same thing. Old old stuff.

Oh I get it, Uvtha. And Raph Koster, the original designer of the game later lamented, "We didn't give the good guys what they needed to win." Naturally one can debate what good gal or guy means but it's fairly clear: community justice. But we were also seeing community tyranny on one shard, not just the sprawling player run towns of Chesapeake that carried on despite being so often under attack by griefers.

In the end Renaissance saved UO. It could have been done differently but it remains one of few, if not the only, example of an online game expansion that didn't just retain a player base, it more than doubled it as I said.

And, heck, we're still here

 

[Hannes Erich]

I'm sure we've all seen this, but Gordon Walton (the guy Ansel's co-worker(s) yelled at) finally opened up last year--a year ago yesterday in fact--about his decision to order the split: "Yes, I'm the person who is responsible for bringing you Trammel."

Walton talked about it candidly on the forum for his new game under development, Crowfall, after a poster remarked that he was increasingly skeptical about Crowfall, after what happened to UO under Walton's watch.

After remembering who you were Ansel, and because of this discussion, I went and found your essay on Gamasutra and reread it. Although we were cut from similar cloth, I doubt you would appreciate the degree to which I've had to deconstruct my approach to UO in order to keep it replayable (for me). But I still think your words of wisdom and experience made for some of the best reading around here. I still think UO is badass. I know it could have been even more badass, but shoulda coulda woulda. I blame some but not all of the community's withering on devs. Part of the problem is players like me. It's been years since I had time to "immerse myself in the adventure of a lifetime" or "seek out my own destiny" (looking at the back of my old Second Age box lol). I just log in and click on monsters now. To solve that problem I need a winning lottery ticket lol.

 

[FrejaSP]

It was a call made from high, high above. And while many remember it as the thing that killed the game - and why not....their friends were leaving - the move was nothing but a success by the numbers. UO was sinking below 100k subs when the change was made. Within two months it was over 200k subs and would later peak at 275.

Problem is, bout the PvM and the PvP community loved UO. They should never had been on same shard, it made so much hate. You don't see that hate on Siege, never did. I know we can't changes the past, but it was a poor way to fix a problem.
If it had been done as I say, you had got the Trammel players back but trust me, alot PvP'ers was lost too and they could had been back too. I was living in the woods of Atlantic and I saw the PvP'ers first try to survive stat loss, alot gave up. Then try to live in a splitted game, where alot took the easy way and played on the trammel facet unless they wanted to hunt reds.

When Siege first was born, so many joined it, then we was wiped and nerfed and only less than half rejoined.

Now all say, look at Siege, there is no need for a PvP shard but Siege is not a PvP shard and alot was not willing to put up with the nerfed rules on Siege. A shard with Fel only ruleset but else like Prodo shards would had worked much better and we would have seen less free shards.

 

[Ansel]

I'm sure we've all seen this, but Gordon Walton (the guy Ansel's co-worker(s) yelled at) finally opened up last year--a year ago yesterday in fact--about his decision to order the split: "Yes, I'm the person who is responsible for bringing you Trammel."

Walton talked about it candidly on the forum for his new game under development, Crowfall, after a poster remarked that he was increasingly skeptical about Crowfall, after what happened to UO under Walton's watch.

After remembering who you were Ansel, and because of this discussion, I went and found your essay on Gamasutra and reread it. Although we were cut from similar cloth, I doubt you would appreciate the degree to which I've had to deconstruct my approach to UO in order to keep it replayable (for me). But I still think your words of wisdom and experience made for some of the best reading around here. I still think UO is badass. I know it could have been even more badass, but shoulda coulda woulda. I blame some but not all of the community's withering on devs. Part of the problem is players like me. It's been years since I had time to "immerse myself in the adventure of a lifetime" or "seek out my own destiny" (looking at the back of my old Second Age box lol). I just log in and click on monsters now. To solve that problem I need a winning lottery ticket lol.

Yes, that's Gordon Always....blunt. He didn't know a thing about online games when he came to Kesmai but I've never known a more driven individual. But that was the business back then: more a movement of berserkers than employees on a job. And Gordon went to Origin with the mission of turning it into the Universal Studios of online gaming. Everyone who was anyone in online gaming was recruited to work there.

First sign that it wasn't going to go well came when an EA exec said to us, "You're terrible story tellers." My reply, "But, it's not our story to tell," was not well received

But I digress and I'm WAY off topic now *blush*

 

[FrejaSP]

Yeah, I think most agreed that change were needed back then, but of course tram just seemed like such a terrible idea. Even a just a pvp switch would have been 100% better. I remember all those thriving little player communities just drying up and turning to dust in the weeks and months after the split. Some reestablished in tram (where everyone was) but it was clear it wasn't anywhere near the same thing. Old old stuff.

It's not to late for a PvP switch, just make VvV shard wide. Sure it will take some work to make it work with Trammel but not impossible.
If you join VvV, you will be orange and attackable on all facets and in all towns. You could make town in Trammel zone non VvV zone.
If you go orange in Fel from being in a VvV battle town or kill/damage/heal a VvV you will be orange in Trammel too until it time out or you die to a VvV
If you leave VvV, you will be orange for 3 days in Trammel zone too.
If non VvV, you can't be attacked of VvV or attack VvV in Trammel zone and you can't heal a VvV char, who are flaged for fighting the last 1-2 min unless you join VvV. If the VvV is only fighting monsters, you can heal him. Only way to become orange in Trammel zone should be active joining VvV

 

[FrejaSP]

As a female in the pvp world, I have my daily fair share of harassment. I have been called every single female derogatory name you could imagine.

Funny, it had only happen a few times to me but the few times I had been in Trammel, I had had a few issues too. Mostly I feel I was treated much more nice than males. I was red 10+ years but I did not play prodo after Trammel was added so I don't know how it is there now. Atlantic before Trammel and Siege don't have that problem.

 

[Ansel]

Problem is, bout the PvM and the PvP community loved UO.I know we can't changes the past, but it was a poor way to fix a problem.
If it had been done as I say, you had got the Trammel players back but trust me, alot PvP'ers was lost too and they could had been back too. I was living in the woods of Atlantic and I saw the PvP'ers first try to survive stat loss, alot gave up. Then try to live in a splitted game, where alot took the easy way and played on the trammel facet unless they wanted to hunt reds.

When Siege first was born, so many joined it, then we was wiped and nerfed and only less than half rejoined.

Now all say, look at Siege, there is no need for a PvP shard but Siege is not a PvP shard and alot was not willing to put up with the nerfed rules on Siege. A shard with Fel only ruleset but else like Prodo shards would had worked much better and we would have seen less free shards.

Please do not imagine that I'm disagreeing with you, Freja. Many shared your views is my point *shudders at the memory of stat loss*

 

[TimberWolf]

It's not to late for a PvP switch, just make VvV shard wide. Sure it will take some work to make it work with Trammel but not impossible.
If you join VvV, you will be orange and attackable on all facets and in all towns. You could make town in Trammel zone non VvV zone.
If you go orange in Fel from being in a VvV battle town or kill/damage/heal a VvV you will be orange in Trammel too until it time out or you die to a VvV
If you leave VvV, you will be orange for 3 days in Trammel zone too.
If non VvV, you can't be attacked of VvV or attack VvV in Trammel zone and you can't heal a VvV char, who are flaged for fighting the last 1-2 min unless you join VvV. If the VvV is only fighting monsters, you can heal him. Only way to become orange in Trammel zone should be active joining VvV

YES YES YES YES YES...please gawd YES!!!

 

[FrejaSP]

Please do not imagine that I'm disagreeing with you, Freja. Many shared your views is my point *shudders at the memory of stat loss*

Yes I know. I had been there fighting for what I believed was best but at that time, many believed non PvP would give most customers.
I also remember Designer Dragon say, it would be much easier to make a Dark shard than a Happy shard and Trammel sure depend a lot more of GM's than Felucca and Siege.
Now we need to try to fix the damage and somehow join the community again.
I see 2 options:
1. Use VvV to make a PvP switch on Prodo shards in a way so both sides can enjoy the game again and interact like PvP and non PvP do on Siege, with respect for each others
2. In close work with the community on Siege, try to see, what Siege rules we can remove to make more players join the shard without hurting the community.

 

[Capt. Lucky]

Everyone in such a rush to put the final coffin nail in UO. Without Trammel UO would have been long gone years ago. When there were no options, no other massive MMOs to play, you could get away with not having some form of "Trammel". The minute people had choices like EQ they were long gone. Never to return with a bad taste in their mouth. Cause PvP NEVER worked in UO. It was always a stacked deck when talking reds vs blues. Reds always swept through, killed tons of people and were long gone. Not to be seen again till they wished. You can't prepare for that, you can fight back against that. Never ever saw 5 reds stand outside Trinsic and say "Send us your 5 best blues". Never happened. That's why Fel was never gonna work. Player justice was a joke, it never worked. How to fix that I have no idea. I just know it didn't work. You'd need perma death for reds, something like that.

 

[FrejaSP]

Everyone in such a rush to put the final coffin nail in UO. Without Trammel UO would have been long gone years ago.

First, you don't know that, you can only guess. Second, Trammel was needed as alot do not want to PvP at all, that's fair enough. If we had got Trammel only shards as copies of old shards, problem had been solved. You may believe the old shards would had been dead or only wolves would be left there. I believe you are wrong, a lot players did not mind the PK's, we had a lot of anti PK's too, who loved fighting them and a lot who did like the risk and adrenalin rush when attacked.
I loved UO before stat loss and Trammel and knew a lot of cool reds.

Never to return with a bad taste in their mouth. Cause PvP NEVER worked in UO.

Wrong it worked great, only problem is, we needed Trammel shards for the ones who did not like the spice PK's added to the game.

Never ever saw 5 reds stand outside Trinsic and say "Send us your 5 best blues". Never happened.

Wrong again, when I was lumbering in the forest and 6 PK's showed up, 3 of them yelled, stop not her, she is cool. Also, when I was killed, I would show my ghost to see if I got a res and I would not go near my body before they allowed me. I was rarely killed more than one time of same PK, next time he said hi.

You'd need perma death for reds, something like that.

Why if you had Fel only shards and Tram only shards, noone was forced to play on the Fel shards. Mosh PK's was great guys, when you learned to know them.
The first years on Siege, half of the shard was red but I rarely got looted. I have so many stories but I'm sure you would believe it's lies.