They're gonna do what to cheaters?

[popps]

Oh yeah, and training in real takes time.

Primary education, intermediate, high school, College, Masters, Ph.Ds......

Now, THAT's a whole lot of years into training......

 

[Amren]

Too little, too late. The damage is already done.

If someone cheats in UO or any game, they can do it at will on any account. I'd much rather see the cheating "fixed" so it can't be exploited, then the cheaters would leave on their own.

I can't wait to hear all the "my account was hacked, someone used a cheat and I'm banned" qq that will start showing up. But then again, EAs cheat detection will either "half work" , "Not work at all" , or is just an "empty threat".

 

[Lord Chaos]

I think training in the game is really so much like in real life.

Except here is a real shocker to you, as you might not have noticed.
THIS IS A COMPUTER GAME

You go to college or trade school.

Yeah, and I get a job, make money, live life...people with this logic are people with either too little life of their own or no life.

The ability and knowledge to succeed in a profession in real isn't handed to you on a silver plater either.

Depends on who you are...and guess what, you can cheat and take shortcuts for the most part without repercussion. If I pay someone to study for me and give me the low down before exam, then I am free to do that. I am free to get extra tutors, etc.

But either way, they lead to a job, money and a life. Grinding in UO just leads to boredom.

 

[Taylor]

Has anyone else noticed that some Stratics accounts appear to have been created exclusively for this thread? I challenge those folks to stop hiding behind the veil of anonymity. You're entitled to your opinion, but own it.

 

[Lord Chaos]

I cannot remember when EA got Ultima Online and maybe I am wrong in my thinking, but I do not think it was 13 years ago.

EA has always owned UO.

Well, if it now carries consequences they will need to make a choice and either risk their accounts or stop it.

Or simply quit and move on to better games, especially better games that don't require cheating for most people to get anywhere.

There are players out there who enjoy mining, chopping wood or doing BODs or Library Collectibles if their time doing those activities is worth it.
Those who do not enjoy doing those things can well resort to those players who actually want to engage in those activities without any scripting.

Are you truly that delusional...amazing.

Personally, I tend to think "better late than never"....
Besides, fighting the war against cheaters, firmly, can either (hopefully) help UO and also gain a reputation for their games as being anti-cheaters which, for those players who do not enjoy playing their games together with cheaters, might be an added bonus when picking up games to play..........

Yes, because Mythic will succeed where every other MMO, including WoW has failed. LOL, really? People complain sometimes that they can't even get event right and you yourself complain that they haven't got treasure hunting quite right...yet you expect them to do what not even Blizzard could do?

Perhaps now is when they came up with a good and feasible plan ? That they had the resources or people to do it ? It can be many things, who knows, bottom line is, better late then never, IMHO.

Yeah, they can sell that plan to Blizzard or SOE afterwards, as they're clearly better than them.

Might be alive but over time it lost many players and, part of the reason was also because of cheaters.

So you say, lol.

We will never know if a cheat-free Ultima Online can have more players than a cheat-filled Ultima Online until that happens. Before then, it is all speculations and guessing.

Again yeah, they're going to succeed where ALL other MMO companies failed.

Perhaps UO will get more players returning to it to enjoy finally a cheat-free virtual environment, perhaps it will not. We simply do not know.

We can only hope for the better and think that at least, it was or it seemed the right thing to do for the better sake of the game.

Even if they are looking for it, then they'd leave anyway, because most likely all cheats won't be stopped and people with super hardware will seem like they're cheating anyway. Just look at Llewyn, he whines and whines, despite what he's talking about is done way better with keyboards with built in macros and mice with many buttons and Nostromos.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Has anyone else noticed that some Stratics accounts appear to have been created exclusively for this thread? I challenge those folks to stop hiding behind the veil of anonymity. You're entitled to your opinion, but own it.

Like all those new accounts that popped up when there was a vote who would quit over cheating and the "I would quit over cheating" number all of a sudden jumped a whole lot? LOL.

 

[Xenobia]

I don't think anyone should be banned or turned into pink donkeys or whatever anyone else comes up with. I want this game to stay around as I love it and have loved it for 12 years. They just need to make sure other programs don't interract with the game. Get a good programmer on board and make the cheating go away And to be honest with you...I don't even care what others do in the game as long as they can't get in my house or my bank box to steal stuff.

 

[Flutter]

I've never used a script. That being said I wouldn't mind if they publicly announced that things like scripts to make potions and other consumables were legal. Yesterday I made several thousand potions (for guild use not for sale) on my laptop with the "make max" option on the crafting menu. I played on my desktop. A script would have been easier. Scripts pull the regs and bottles from the chest and replaces filled bottles to the specific container you want them in.

I know this because I researched it. Anyone can look it up. Now since I was at the computer the whole time (my laptop is right there --->) nothing I was doing was illegal. Had I run the script to make it easier on myself it would have been illegal. Why? It's not going to do anything that I am not here doing. It just makes me pause my fun game play time and look over at my laptop to remake crafting tools and pull more regs and bottles. This is stuff I am doing anyway, so why not just allow a script for it? Oh yeah because some people would be doing it afk then... I gotta be honest... so what.



A long time ago in a galaxy far far away I once downloaded something someone told me would make my computer run faster (name withheld). Less than 5 minutes after I installed it I uninstalled it and deleted it from my computer. I could actively hear my computer burning up.

I know there there are better ones now. In fact I have been in many, many ventrilos with many, many PvPers (Heck I may have been in yours once). And I know the programs people are running. I know who runs them and who say they don't. (Some I believe and some not so much). I'm not calling out anyone.
I will say that there are scripts that pop your trapped box for you, but most good PvPers don't use it because it's not as fast as human instinct. (arguable) There are QUITE a few people who use medic scripts. There's a whole guild of people(on Catskills) who use the "free version" of UO Assist which has a few added bonuses to it's program (which is why it isnt uo-pro). This kind of thing needs to be dealt with. It effects other people's game-play. Anything that gives an advantage in PvP should be taken care of. This includes bola dismount scripts, speed hacking, medic scripts, box scripts, casting scripts etc.

I was invited to join a guild once and one of their rules was you had to run a certain program. I was told I was stupid if I didn't and that "everyone" was using it who pvp'd. People who cheat always think EVERYONE is doing it. It's like it somehow justifies their own cheating.


Now what of the resource scripts. How can we allow for the pot making script that I am somewhat an advocate for above and block the resource gathering scripts? Do you look for people with over a certain amount of ingots and delete them? I don't know. I know people who have never script mined but have a ton of ingots from things like Idocs and friends who have moved on to other games. How much is too much? I guess we'd have to see the numbers to make some sort of determination.


And what of the search sites? Is there anyone here who can say they don't use them? I do. Does that make me a cheater? Maybe. We all know it's done by script. A guy I know told me once he wrote a script for his own personal vendors. He knew what sold when and for how much. That script doesn't hurt anyone. Is he a cheater who should be banned?

We all talk a big game about our hatred for cheaters, and about how they have ruined the game. But, don't we all have some sort of line drawn in our heads as to what's ok and what's not? Aren't some of us angry about skill gain scripts because we did it all by hand? I trained taming 0-120 so people who do it afk **** me off. I'm not gonna lie. But really they are going to get the skill anyway so why should it bother me if they do it on their laptop while they play on their desktop?

I used to be a big anti-cheating advocate. Now I feel like the blanket shouldn't cover everything. Certain things should be able to be done through normal game mechanics. When the game was created the devs didn't really foresee anyone having a need for 5000 heal potions. Today's UO is different.


LOL sorry for the length of this post.

 

[Taylor]

. . . turned into pink donkeys . . .

 

[Lord Chaos]

Anything that gives an advantage in PvP should be taken care of.

So we should ban anyone using the EC, anyone using a G15, a G19, a Nostromo, a naga, etc.? hehehe

Now what of the resource scripts. How can we allow for the pot making script that I am somewhat an advocate for above and block the resource gathering scripts? Do you look for people with over a certain amount of ingots and delete them? I don't know. I know people who have never script mined but have a ton of ingots from things like Idocs and friends who have moved on to other games. How much is too much? I guess we'd have to see the numbers to make some sort of determination.

Most people don't really do much resourcegathering at this point, especially not with scripts. Random resources has ruined that or both types of gatherers.

And what of the search sites? Is there anyone here who can say they don't use them? I do. Does that make me a cheater? Maybe. We all know it's done by script. A guy I know told me once he wrote a script for his own personal vendors. He knew what sold when and for how much. That script doesn't hurt anyone. Is he a cheater who should be banned?

The devs themselves said using those kind of sites were illegal, so yeah, its cheating. But you're right, where do we draw the line and honestly, at this point its becoming an extremist game with extremist views.

We all talk a big game about our hatred for cheaters, and about how they have ruined the game. But, don't we all have some sort of line drawn in our heads as to what's ok and what's not? Aren't some of us angry about skill gain scripts because we did it all by hand? I trained taming 0-120 so people who do it afk **** me off.

My wife trained up my tamer to 120, a long with several GM and Elder tamers for pet storage. (yes, we have tons of pets) No cheating involved other than a woman who's an absolute beast at repetitive actions, whereas me myself has only ever reached 110 in taming and even that was a gigantic pain in the ass.

I now have a legendary tamer that I didn't even work for, are you going to have a sore butt and get pissed off too?

We look to measure the value of our work compared to others work. But that is really a dangerous attitude to have...what if in real life you worked years to afford a nice car and I just effortlessly went out and bought a much better car than you. You going to cry over that or be happy with your car.

What about people who know shortcuts in the game or train smarter...does that degrade those who did it the even harder way? (like for instance when we trained taming, we weren't aware that there were a trick with the ridgebacks in the savage camp to the south, so we did it the hard way to the north)

Or perhaps we should learn to place value in what we create on our own terms, instead of measuring ourselves against others all the time. Be proud of your legendary tamer, be proud of the effort.

 

[popps]

Yesterday I made several thousand potions (for guild use not for sale) on my laptop with the "make max" option on the crafting menu. I played on my desktop. A script would have been easier. Scripts pull the regs and bottles from the chest and replaces filled bottles to the specific container you want them in.

Personally, I am not against a certain level of automation (read macroing) as long as it is available to any and all players.

The best option would be in the official game client be it the enhanced client or the classic one. A second best is through an authorized utility like UOAssist that meets certain conditions (and because of that is authorized).

Anything else, I cannot possibly agree with.

The Developers have already a tough job at trying to balance out a complex game like UO is, letting third party software which goes beyond their design boundaries and messes up with them only hurts the game.

An example ?

Because of scripting they had to eventually randomize the resource spawn points which hurt and quite some all those players who do not script.

Also, whenever the designers plan of some crafting and want to make some nice item craftable but "under control" through the use of some rare resource this gets screwed up again by scripters who make that resource way more abundant than it should be by design plans.

Or talk about hacking which screws up all of their balancing work in designing PvP....

As I see it, cheating in a game is the worst enemy to a designer because it makes countless hours of brain storming, planning, designing and coding go "poof" thanking to some script, some hack, some dupe........

This is why I think that fighting cheating in an online, multyplayer game should always be the #1 priority and because it is a battle worth fighting for.

I am convinced that games would be far better and designers finally be able to do their work according to their plans and ideas rather than always have to resort to patching up solutions and emergencies whenever dupes, hacks, scripts surface which really screw up their design of the game too much.

If players have complaints about playing in the game, rather than resort to third parties they should voice up their complaint and ask the developers to implement what they feel is needed in the official client.

That's at least how I see it.

 

[Xenobia]

I am convinced that games would be far better and designers finally be able to do their work according to their plans and ideas rather than always have to resort to patching up solutions and emergencies whenever dupes, hacks, scripts surface which really screw up their design of the game too much.
QUOTE]

Microsoft hasn't even figured out how to do that lol People are smart enough to always be a threat. Even looking at my post, I think there is no way they will be able to stop everyone. Hell, the Government can't stop everyone...I work for 'em lol
for Microsoft it's called Service Packs orrrrrrrrrrrrrrr the non technical term is patching up all the little leaky holes

 

[Lord Chaos]

Just to turn this around. Perhaps a better strategy would be to simply allow *ALL* tools and instead ban the actions. Work with them to allow certain things and disallow others.

Like allowing certain scripts, but taking out others, concentrating on the actions instead of the programs.

Here's program XXX, you can use it, but only use it for these and these things, if you use it for anything else, then its banz0r time.

 

[popps]

I am convinced that games would be far better and designers finally be able to do their work according to their plans and ideas rather than always have to resort to patching up solutions and emergencies whenever dupes, hacks, scripts surface which really screw up their design of the game too much.

Microsoft hasn't even figured out how to do that lol People are smart enough to always be a threat. Even looking at my post, I think there is no way they will be able to stop everyone. Hell, the Government can't stop everyone...I work for 'em lol
for Microsoft it's called Service Packs orrrrrrrrrrrrrrr the non technical term is patching up all the little leaky holes

Well, perfection is really something quite hard to get, perhaps even impossible to get.

Sure, there is smart people out there but this is a game, after all, is it really worth it so much effort by an individual to break whatever is in the game to prevent cheating ?

How many will really go out of their way to spend time and effort if there is a sufficiently high level of protection from cheating ?

So, the perfect anti-cheating game probably cannot exist or would not be worth the effort, but there maybe can be a game with a good level of anti-cheat code that at least makes it not worth the time and effort for the majority of players to try beat it.

I may be wrong in my thinking, but that's my opinion of it.

 

[Crystal Canyon]

Except here is a real shocker to you, as you might not have noticed.
THIS IS A COMPUTER GAME

Exactly, Choas, so maybe you should realize this and maybe you wouldn't have to spend so much time weighing the pros and cons of a computer game

 

[Lord Chaos]

Exactly, Choas, so maybe you should realize this and maybe you wouldn't have to spend so much time weighing the pros and cons of a computer game

Uhm, this is exactly why you weigh the pros and cons, to see whats fun to you or not. This game is supposed to be about fun, not about your crusades or working like in real life.

 

[Lord Chaos]

I may be wrong in my thinking

DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING

And here we have it folks, for the first time popps is right about something, even if it is about him being wrong.

 

[Wenchkin]

They've "rolled over" for 13 years, its not going to matter in regards to their reputation any longer.

I disagree.

For many, this has been part of the game for 13 years, so its highly unlikely they're going to stop all of a sudden.

Exactly what I'd expect from the "sky is falling" camp. A sweeping assumption that all cheats are drones who can't think or function for themselves. I'll disagree with you there too.

Lack of risk maybe, but certainly because its what makes the game bearable to play. So many things are either impossible to do in CC or a mess to do in either client. UO has the undisputed most boring training system in the history of MMOs.

Oh it's so hard to play UO properly, you poor thing! You could just play a game that you can deal with instead of cheating in UO? Nobody forced a player to join UO, but the drones cheating only encourage EA Mythic to keep those crappy boring training systems in place - because nobody complains - they depend on boring systems because those are easiest to script.

Who said UO was in need of saving?

Who said UO is rocketing in popularity and thriving? Apparently we have so few subscribers that cheat money is a precious commodity. We can't ban players because OMG there will be none left...if you're to believe the pro cheat camp. I don't, but I still recognise that UO is a shadow of the game I started playing 10 years ago, and it needs more than new content and bug fixes IMHO.

And why does it need to be taken now? Has anything changed from how things were 5 years ago, 2 years ago, a year ago?

Because I have this wierd view that when you say you're going to fix something, you get off your butt and get it fixed. Clearly EA Mythic thought action needed to be taken at this time, because they developed the detection system and they're testing it. So now it's time for the second bit - the action. Wishy washy action makes that development work a total waste of time which us customers funded.

UO is alive isn't it? So its obviously worked. UO had its peak of subscribers and massive influx of players when cheating was at its highest as well, so to honestly say that cheating has had any real bearing on subscriber numbers is silly to say the least.

Ah, it's breathing therefore it's in perfect health... Well hey, you're probably the kind of customer UO needs - not too particular about the state of the game you pay to play UO could be doing a lot better than it is, and as someone who cares passionately about the game, I would like to see it achieve at least a little of that potential.

Wenchy

 

[Xenobia]

Well, perfection is really something quite hard to get, perhaps even impossible to get.

Sure, there is smart people out there but this is a game, after all, is it really worth it so much effort by an individual to break whatever is in the game to prevent cheating ?

How many will really go out of their way to spend time and effort if there is a sufficiently high level of protection from cheating ?

So, the perfect anti-cheating game probably cannot exist or would not be worth the effort, but there maybe can be a game with a good level of anti-cheat code that at least makes it not worth the time and effort for the majority of players to try beat it.

I may be wrong in my thinking, but that's my opinion of it.

I do agree with that just so long as everyone understands that there will never be a way to totally stop cheaters/hackers/jackasses from trying everything in their power to break what EA/Microsoft/Gov't agencies have put in place. That is how they spend their time. It's the thrill of knowing they can "get in" I hate them all and hope their computers blow up in their faces (literally) and take them with it.

 

[Lord Chaos]

I disagree.

Lets just say I have a heck of a lot more real life experience in that regard than you. Its not really going to matter outside of scare campaigns and some brainchild of someone.

Exactly what I'd expect from the "sky is falling" camp. A sweeping assumption that all cheats are drones who can't think or function for themselves. I'll disagree with you there too.

Which wasn't even remotely what I said. But nice strawman.

Oh it's so hard to play UO properly, you poor thing! You could just play a game that you can deal with instead of cheating in UO?

And that they will, and so the subscription numbers decline and decline.

Nobody forced a player to join UO, but the drones cheating only encourage EA Mythic to keep those crappy boring training systems in place - because nobody complains - they depend on boring systems because those are easiest to script.

LOL? People complain about the boring systems and they've been complaining for a decade now. Do you think they listen? Nope.

When was the last change to training made? When has any skill ever been made fun to train or at least attempted to be made fun?

Who said UO is rocketing in popularity and thriving? Apparently we have so few subscribers that cheat money is a precious commodity. We can't ban players because OMG there will be none left...if you're to believe the pro cheat camp. I don't, but I still recognise that UO is a shadow of the game I started playing 10 years ago, and it needs more than new content and bug fixes IMHO.

But this isn't going to draw any real new players. New players don't really care about this because they know you can cheat in just about ANY MMO out there. And all that really make anyone quit are the constant whine posts here on Stratics.

Because I have this wierd view that when you say you're going to fix something, you get off your butt and get it fixed.

lol...just lol.

Clearly EA Mythic thought action needed to be taken at this time, because they developed the detection system and they're testing it. So now it's time for the second bit - the action. Wishy washy action makes that development work a total waste of time which us customers funded.

Likely they read Stratics and read the whine posts by a select few and that spurred action. Sadly many of the times the devs listen to the Stratics whiners, we ended up with worse systems and a worse game. They should have concentrated on the dismal new player experience instead, I mean really, you honestly feel that UO is a good game to start out in? You literally have nothing, know nothing, no help on the dismal UI (either client) and confusing game concepts...hell, other MMOs have voiced tutorials, great introductions to their controls and actions, heck just about ALL computer games have this...except UO.

Ah, it's breathing therefore it's in perfect health... Well hey, you're probably the kind of customer UO needs - not too particular about the state of the game you pay to play UO could be doing a lot better than it is, and as someone who cares passionately about the game, I would like to see it achieve at least a little of that potential.

Wenchy

I care passionately about them game, therefor I'd like to see the game I enjoy persist and not wrecked by a bunch of board whiners.

 

[Flutter]

Anything that gives an advantage in PvP should be taken care of.

So we should ban anyone using the EC, anyone using a G15, a G19, a Nostromo, a naga, etc.? hehehe

Now what of the resource scripts. How can we allow for the pot making script that I am somewhat an advocate for above and block the resource gathering scripts? Do you look for people with over a certain amount of ingots and delete them? I don't know. I know people who have never script mined but have a ton of ingots from things like Idocs and friends who have moved on to other games. How much is too much? I guess we'd have to see the numbers to make some sort of determination.

Most people don't really do much resourcegathering at this point, especially not with scripts. Random resources has ruined that or both types of gatherers.

And what of the search sites? Is there anyone here who can say they don't use them? I do. Does that make me a cheater? Maybe. We all know it's done by script. A guy I know told me once he wrote a script for his own personal vendors. He knew what sold when and for how much. That script doesn't hurt anyone. Is he a cheater who should be banned?

The devs themselves said using those kind of sites were illegal, so yeah, its cheating. But you're right, where do we draw the line and honestly, at this point its becoming an extremist game with extremist views.

We all talk a big game about our hatred for cheaters, and about how they have ruined the game. But, don't we all have some sort of line drawn in our heads as to what's ok and what's not? Aren't some of us angry about skill gain scripts because we did it all by hand? I trained taming 0-120 so people who do it afk **** me off.

My wife trained up my tamer to 120, a long with several GM and Elder tamers for pet storage. (yes, we have tons of pets) No cheating involved other than a woman who's an absolute beast at repetitive actions, whereas me myself has only ever reached 110 in taming and even that was a gigantic pain in the ass.

I now have a legendary tamer that I didn't even work for, are you going to have a sore butt and get pissed off too?

We look to measure the value of our work compared to others work. But that is really a dangerous attitude to have...what if in real life you worked years to afford a nice car and I just effortlessly went out and bought a much better car than you. You going to cry over that or be happy with your car.

What about people who know shortcuts in the game or train smarter...does that degrade those who did it the even harder way? (like for instance when we trained taming, we weren't aware that there were a trick with the ridgebacks in the savage camp to the south, so we did it the hard way to the north)

Or perhaps we should learn to place value in what we create on our own terms, instead of measuring ourselves against others all the time. Be proud of your legendary tamer, be proud of the effort.

LC you have a way of picking out parts of peoples posts and making out of context comments to try to pick an arguement.

For instance the first point you attempted to make out of my post you used the word "ban" I did not. I simply stated something needed to be done about certain "illegal" programs that give people an advantage over PvP. This thread is about illegal programs, not the EC, or user end equipment that is legal.

Your second point is irrelevant. I know for a fact people still script mine and script lumberjack. If you don't that's not my (or anyone elses) problem. Live in ignorance.

Your third point you said I was right about, so there's still hope for you.

Fifth, I clarified myself in the original post in the same paragraph. Reading comprehension for the win.

You're a real board warrior LC, but let's not get stupid and get ourselves put on ignore mkay?

 

[Lord Chaos]

Actually I said ban as a bait...First its anything that gives advantage in PvP and now its only illegal programs advantage. (never mind that the others are better)

Funny how it changes.

Which part of MOST people do you fail to understand? MOST people does not exclude you from knowing someone who does do it.

As for the last, it was specifically aimed at your last statement, omitted it for the same reason. You though still said it pissed you off and as such its a generalized statement towards everyone whining, not as such solely aimed at you.

You're a real board evasionist, you don't even need ignore.

 

[Flutter]

Actually I said ban as a bait...First its anything that gives advantage in PvP and now its only illegal programs advantage. (never mind that the others are better)

Funny how it changes.

Which part of MOST people do you fail to understand? MOST people does not exclude you from knowing someone who does do it.

As for the last, it was specifically aimed at your last statement, omitted it for the same reason. You though still said it pissed you off and as such its a generalized statement towards everyone whining, not as such solely aimed at you.

You're a real board evasionist, you don't even need ignore.

Ok I'll bite.
I didn't specifically say "illegal" in my post regarding anything that gives people an advantage in PvP. Ya got me. My reading comprehension in the thread tipped me off that this was about illegal 3rd party programs and scripts. I didn't think it was necessary to clarify with the "illegal" part of it. I apologize apparently reading comprehension is harder than I realized. (Edit: most people posting in this thread knew I didn't mean that anyone with a better computer than anyone else should be banned)

If you don't get out and about to know how much script mining/lumberjacking there is perhaps you shouldn't comment on it. It's like someone having an opinion about a pvp template that doesn't pvp, it's not really worth that much.

Yes, I said it pissed me off (funny you can type pissed but not ****...). It annoys me that people script skills. I admitted it. I also admitted how irrational it is in the rest of the paragraph. I'm not sure what else you want out of that.

 

[Lord Chaos]

The whole point of my snipe was to point out in general, that its completely stupid to talk about PvP advantages in this context when PvP is already screwed up as it is with imbalances even if you only take legal tools into account. Its like trying to balance a boxing match by saying "you can't bring knives, but handguns, assault rifles and grenades are ok!" and then seriously still call it fair boxing.

I know how much there is. And its not really that high. There are two very popular ways of doing it (and some more specialized), one is radar LJ/Mining (aka, script maps the resource squares) and the other is simply brute LJ/Mining where you just endlessly do a large number of spots and with time you'll get a somewhat ok amount of everything.

But its ok, I still love you anyway.

 

[Wenchkin]

LOL? People complain about the boring systems and they've been complaining for a decade now. Do you think they listen? Nope.

When was the last change to training made? When has any skill ever been made fun to train or at least attempted to be made fun?

They haven't been listened to because they haven't got together and made enough of a noise to get noticed. And a whole bunch use it as the excuse for cheating without even trying to train by themselves. So now we should give up like you seem to have, and say "ok, leave in cheats, leave the game so it's scriptable"?. I'll say no thanks to that, if EA Mythic don't want to get tough on cheats, working on making skill gain more fun would be a nice passive aggressive option for them. So I do think it's quite viable tbh.

Likely they read Stratics and read the whine posts by a select few and that spurred action. Sadly many of the times the devs listen to the Stratics whiners, we ended up with worse systems and a worse game.

LOL, so now they should listen to the cheats and those players who just can't manage to play a game by themselves?

They should have concentrated on the dismal new player experience instead, I mean really, you honestly feel that UO is a good game to start out in? You literally have nothing, know nothing, no help on the dismal UI (either client) and confusing game concepts...hell, other MMOs have voiced tutorials, great introductions to their controls and actions, heck just about ALL computer games have this...except UO.

I'll agree with you, new players have a shocking experience. But that's an obligation EA Mythic have in addition to cleaning up cheating. If new players are a concern of yours, I'm sure you'll appreciate that we don't want them downloading heaven knows what bit of code because a guildmate says "it's great".. then later finding they downloaded malware too.

I care passionately about them game, therefor I'd like to see the game I enjoy persist and not wrecked by a bunch of board whiners.

If caring that rules are enforced makes me a whiner, I'll wear that tag with pride. It's better than "cheat" or "friend of cheats"

Wenchy

 

[Lord Chaos]

They haven't been listened to because they haven't got together and made enough of a noise to get noticed.

People have made noise for a decade, its just always been too much hassle for the devs to bother with.

LOL, so now they should listen to the cheats and those players who just can't manage to play a game by themselves?

No, they shouldn't listen to either camp and just continue on improving the game, instead of going down fruitless paths.

I'll agree with you, new players have a shocking experience. But that's an obligation EA Mythic have in addition to cleaning up cheating. If new players are a concern of yours, I'm sure you'll appreciate that we don't want them downloading heaven knows what bit of code because a guildmate says "it's great".. then later finding they downloaded malware too.

They can do that regardless of whether there's anti-cheat code or not.

If caring that rules are enforced makes me a whiner, I'll wear that tag with pride. It's better than "cheat" or "friend of cheats"

Wenchy

You already are friend of cheats btw.

 

[Tanivar]

You're a real board warrior LC, but let's not get stupid and get ourselves put on ignore mkay?

Haven't been reading his posts the whole topic I take it. Please add him to your list and we can see less of his malarky.

LC is definitely the type you accept has been forced on you but you tune out or send out of a meeting for some irrelevent errand every chance you get to avoid wasting time in a serious discussion.

Trolls belong on ignore lists. Please quit entertaining him.

 

[Lord Chaos]

So I take it you have experience in getting put on ignore list then and getting sent off to a lot of meetings in RL, lol.

 

[ElRay]

Well perhaps I could ,but you haven't even said Why?

Because your posts are a wall of text that is complete and utter drivel.

 

[Picus of Napa]

The worst part about this board and these threads is 5 people post 85% of the replies and no meaningfull content sneaks through.

 

[Going Going Gone]

Has anyone else noticed that some Stratics accounts appear to have been created exclusively for this thread? I challenge those folks to stop hiding behind the veil of anonymity. You're entitled to your opinion, but own it.

This account was indeed created for the topic concerning the anouncement about cheat detection code. Not this one, but same difference. Before that, I have been several years not even looking here, because I was too disgusted about the lack of action taken against the cheaters in UO. When I wanted to reply to this post, I couldn't remember my username or password here:-/

I played several shards, yet my main on Atlantic was named Fingers and had 1500 murder counts. On the west cost my main was TheChoppa. Both accounts have been closed since july 2007.

This is not a conspiracy!

 

[Tazar]

Who wants cheaters as customers? If a customer cheated me over and over again, I can promise you I'd not want them ever in my business again.

 

[Tazar]

They are cheating Mythic out of all the other customers that quit because of the cheating...

 

[Going Going Gone]

They are cheating Mythic out of all the other customers that quit because of the cheating...

QFT

 

[Tazar]

Unless you can provide me a source for your information, my work here is done. Lol.


Truth? I extend my offer to you too also to find me a source for this made up information.

The source is my own personal knowledge from playing for 13 years and watching literally hundreds of players from my alliance leave over the years - and that's just one alliance - on one shard.

My other source is watching U-hall and seeing literally hundreds of posts over the years about players quitting due to the cheating.

The info is there if you care to search for it. Nice try though...

 

[Nails]

and so many said it wasn't true when several different folks would say it runs too deep and they cannot afford a bann all. funny

 

[Lord Chaos]

They are cheating Mythic out of all the other customers that quit because of the cheating...

Yeah, all 5 of them.

 

[Tazar]

LC, As much time as you have spent around U-hall, you certainly know better than that. At least Olcher has a low post count to explain his lack of knowledge.

Olcher, if you had bothered to read my post in full, I did not only site my own knowledge - I also said to review U-hall history - the info is there. Guess you really don't want to know...

 

[Lord Chaos]

Just because they post it doesn't mean that this is actually the real reason, its just a convenient ranting point for many. Often to cover over other issues.

Funny enough, the #1 quitting reason cheaters use when they're banned/quits is other people cheating, because that gives them a convenient cover, as no one would really suspect someone complaining about cheating to be a cheater themselves. Pretty sensible too...after all, if people know you in the guild and shard, then what are you going to do "hey guys, I got banned for script mining" or are you going to go "ARRRR, I can't take it anymore, those damn cheaters, I am leaving this game and never coming back!"

 

[Tazar]

At least I can quote U-hall as a source for my info - where'd that stat of yours come from?

 

[popps]

Who wants cheaters as customers? If a customer cheated me over and over again, I can promise you I'd not want them ever in my business again.

Lol? How are these 'cheaters' cheating Mythic? Is there some sort of cheat code to unlock expansions that I didn't know about? Fail logic.

If a customer that cheats ruins the game to another customer and make them leave, ain't there a loss for the company that owns the game in subscriptions ?

Now, if 1 cheater screws up the game to 10 regular, non-cheating players and half of these leave, we have 1 cheater causing the loss of 5 other customers.

The company is losing 5 to keep 1............. what a deal.

Of course, this if just all guessing and a mere example for the sake of the discussion as I have no idea what the reality is. This is why there is surveys, feedback from players closing accounts, polls on forums or magazines, statistic studies and all that.

Data collection is at the basis of decision making. In order to make decisions it is necessary to be informed and the more the better.

Personally, and it is merely a feeling of mine not having raw data to base my feelings off, I tend to think that those who cheat are less than those who may have left the game because they had enough of other players cheating.

That is, I suspect and think that keeping cheaters into the game has provided less revenues than what was lost from players actually leaving the game because of cheating.

Meaning, that I think cheating and not dealing with it firmly has eventually had a negative toll on Ultima Online.

I may well be wrong, but that's my feeling and thinking of it.

 

[popps]

Unless you can provide me a source for your information, my work here is done. Lol.


Truth? I extend my offer to you too also to find me a source for this made up information.

The source is my own personal knowledge from playing for 13 years and watching literally hundreds of players from my alliance leave over the years - and that's just one alliance - on one shard.

My other source is watching U-hall and seeing literally hundreds of posts over the years about players quitting due to the cheating.

The info is there if you care to search for it. Nice try though...

I can add my personal common sense, for what it may be worth........

I do not know others but personally, I do NOT enjoy playing the same game where other fellow players I see cheat a go-go.

And, I happen to think, that not many actually may enjoy playing a game where others cheat to gain an edge.

Now, MY common sense is that if many of those who do not cheat think like me, that is do NOT enjoy playing games where others cheat, then chances are that at some point they have enough of it and leave the game.

They might leave reluctantly, that is, they would want to stay and keep playing but they see NO POINT in playing a game where others cheat so much and are not opposed in doing it.

I do have met fellow players over the years I played who were so much disgusted over others cheating in UO so, I'd imagine, I am not alone in this thinking.

Now, as in regards to which number is greater, whether the cheaters or those who left the game in disgust well, that I cannot possibly know.

But I have a feeling, a personal gut feeling, that it is more those who left the game because of the cheating in it that those who stayed and cheat to play it.

Perhaps the Developers have more data and numbers to show which is the greater number, who knows.

 

[Going Going Gone]

Truth? I extend my offer to you too also to find me a source for this made up information.

I can not speak for others, but personally, I have not renew my 2X7 years accounts because of the rampant cheating. Some of it has been fixed since then (champ spawn cams, dupes), but I could witness, while checking some other pvp boards, that speedhacks, art file modification and 3rd party scripts are still rampant. So just for me, that is 37 months X 2 accounts X 12.99 that EA has been losing for not taking care of cheats. Arguing that EA would lose even more if they applied their TOS is like saying that we should make the foundations of a building out of mud, because mud is cheaper than concrete. This will effectively work as long as we stay at the foundation level, but there is no possibility to build over it.

 

[popps]

Just because they post it doesn't mean that this is actually the real reason, its just a convenient ranting point for many. Often to cover over other issues.

Funny enough, the #1 quitting reason cheaters use when they're banned/quits is other people cheating, because that gives them a convenient cover, as no one would really suspect someone complaining about cheating to be a cheater themselves. Pretty sensible too...after all, if people know you in the guild and shard, then what are you going to do "hey guys, I got banned for script mining" or are you going to go "ARRRR, I can't take it anymore, those damn cheaters, I am leaving this game and never coming back!"

Until Ultima Online does the brave move, we will never know.

We have had X years of Ultima Online with rampant cheating and we have data of how it went as in regards to active subscriptions.

Now, UNLESS we make Ultima Online cheat-free and see how it goes with subscriptions we will NEVER KNOW it for sure. It can only be guess work.

So, WHY NOT make that step and see how it goes once and for all ?

Why leave it to guess work in an endless discussion of which would be better ?

We have HAD ALREADY a time with UO cheat filled. We saw how it has gone.

Let's now have the other way around (cheat-free) and see how it goes, shall we ?

THEN and only THEN we will be able to compare the 2 different Ultima Online and know for good which of the 2 did better.

Why stay with doubts and guesses when we can have the real thing ? Make UO cheat-free for good and see how the game performs ?

 

[popps]

Arguing that EA would lose even more if they applied their TOS is like saying that we should make the foundations of a building out of mud, because mud is cheaper than concrete. This will effectively work as long as we stay at the foundation level, but there is no possibility to build over it.

I like that analogy about anti-cheat fighting being the foundation to a better and more prosperous game.

It makes the fight to get rid of cheating in Ultima Online sound as an investment for the better sake of the game in the long term.

I like that.

 

[yars]

out of the 100+ people i know that quit, it was because of AOS, not cheating. but ultimately why talk about something that you cant do anything about outside the game. this thread is steering towards rants.

 

[Tanivar]

out of the 100+ people i know that quit, it was because of AOS, not cheating. but ultimately why talk about something that you cant do anything about outside the game. this thread is steering towards rants.

We can do something outside the game. Complain to EA, and express our opinions on the topic, so that when our accounts close, they can go back and see what had us so dis-satisfied with the game, we took our money elsewhere.

With me. It had been the destroying of Crafting as a playable playstyle due to the BOD system & monsters dropping better gear as loot than my fully trained Crafter could make without the way to rare, or expensive if vended, runic tools.

Then they wanted me to premit some small company's software to explore my system freely, employer files included. Those two together sent me to another game for a few years until I bothered to come back and find out it hadn't happened. Apparently never got beyond the announcement the Client was being updated to work with Punkbuster which was when my accounts closed.

Now it is the cursed cheating.

 

[Tjalle]

Lots of pro-cheating in this thread.

Sad really. Ban them all, I say.


Oh, and it´s funny how that LC guy has a reply for everything. Guess he misses his 8000+ post count...

 

[HD2300]

Like Lord Chaos said EA ROLLED OVER.

Fact is they could stop scripting by releasing a major patch every 2 days. Fact is they could stop speed hacking by using movement timers, like any other timer in UO.

Just legalize all 3rd party programs and be done with it.

 

[shadowgate]

This post here sums it up for me!

This is my official statement concerning EA's recent announcements about including PunkBuster to fight scripting.

To summarize it, I think they're using PB as a scare tactic, to annouce that they'll not tolerate scriptin program any further without needing a ban wave in which they'd lose customers.

Obviously, they've been able to detect scriptin program before and it's not hard to smuggle something into the client that detects scriptin program. I can't check every single patch for such things and even if I could I would miss something sooner or later.

So it's quite certain that they know exactly how many scriptin program users are out there, not just from the number of registered users on our boards but because they used some sort of detection in the past and logged everything. When they saw how many people were using scripts they knew they couldn't just ban everyone because of the financial repercussions. But they couldn't admit to being able to find scriptin program users either, because the other part of the community would demand that all "cheaters" get banned. And because they were understaffed anyway they probably ignored the problem for a while and let the GMs deal with it as best as they could.

Nowadays, with heaps of items and gold being sold on Ebay and the economy going downwards, they see that they have to do something. Not against the casual scripters, but against the few who abuse the system to farm billions of gold and items. We've seen all this happen before on scripting-friendly freeshards that had to ban scriptin program for that reason.

So EA had to find a way of telling people that they will be able to detect "cheaters" without admitting that they were able to do just that all along. And they're using the name of a renown company, a 3rd party, to achieve this.

It's quite a smart move, actually. First, you announce that you'll use PunkBuster to get the rumors started. Then you'll make a beta phase where you show the scripters that they can be detected without having to ban them (it's only testing after all). When the system goes active, even if the scriptin program developers manage to keep scriptin program hidden from PunkBuster for a while, most users will be too scared to use it anymore. And some of the few that still do could be banned as a deterrent.

Using PB also eliminates the problem of telling people they'll be spied upon. Some users already know PunkBuster and probably have it already on their system. So EA won't have to deal with privacy concerns either because they can refer to Even Balance.

Actually, PunkBuster can only find cheating tools that are known. It's designed to fight those tools used by "kiddies" to cheat in FPS games. So it does not actually attack the creation of cheating tools but their distribution process. If I were to make my own, completely different version of scriptin program, there would be no way how they could detect that because the PB system just doesn't work that way. But if a tool is distributed on the internet, they can grab it and create detection fingerprints.

Even if I were to devise some countermeasures, they could simply grab scriptin program again and try to find a way around that. Because PB is a client/server system, they can update their software anytime. We've seen all that happen with World of Warcraft and WoWSharp (www.wowsharp.net), a macroing system similar to scriptin program. The difference between UO and WoW is that Blizzard was a lot better prepared for all that because they came 8 years later than UO and had time to learn from the mistakes of others. They had a zero-tolerance ban policy from the start and were willing to fight in court for their right to scan users harddrives for 3rd party tools (and won).

WoWSharp went down not because they couldn't devise cloaking measurements, but because each time the detection system got around that, Blizzard silently logged all users and banned them a week later. Which is exactly what EA couldn't do because there were already too many people using scriptin program.

The whole PB thing is only a scare tactic and it's also about shooting with cannons at sparrows. They don't need PunkBuster for detecting scriptin program which they can do themselves easily enough. In fact, I could come up with really simple code to detect scriptin program in say... 5 seconds. I mean it's ridiculous to assume EA wouldn't be able to detect something like scriptin program client-side.

PB is designed to react to small cheater tools. Those tools get released and used by a few hundred people and after about a week, when the PB guys get their hands on it, everyone who still uses it after that gets banned from those FPS games. The cheat tool creators release a new tool and the whole thing starts again.

With scriptin program, we have a whole scripting platform and over 1500 scripts which are used by over 50,000 people. Besides a few other tools, there isn't even anything else out there because there's just no point to create something that already exists and obviously performs so well because it's free, because there's a public script library (PSL) and forums for help. Even without anything like PB, if EA *REALLY* wanted to do something against a project on such a large scale as scriptin program then they easily could.

The main reason for scriptin program's success is because it was able to satisfy the need to automate some really boring tasks in UO while the developers did little to help you there. Even the zero-tolerance WoW has a built-in addon system which allows 3rd party code to run within WoW to simplify things for the users (and the whole thing is a great success. People love addons!). EA now finally recognizes the need for some changes to make some tasks in the game less boring but doesn't want to give you the whole thing because it would change the game and would probably be too expensive. They certainly don't want to invest too much money in a game that has seen its best days anyway.

So, where does that leave us after I've said all those things? Do we just give up? Hell no!

You've got a right to play the game in a way where you don't have to fear you'll get the carpal tunnel syndrome. If the developers can't come up with a satisfying solution then they'll have to accept that you'll use a 3rd party tool if that does the job.

Does the introduction of PunkBuster change anything? No, your account ID is probably already stored in some log or another for using scriptin program in the past. Guess what, so are 49,999 other account IDs and they didn't do anything about it... it's a third of the user base after all. This PB thing is only a marketing trick. It changes nothing. The question is how everyone is going to react. Will you say "Oh my, they can detect me now so I'll better stop". Or will you say "They have already detected me and many others. Why not just keep on using what I've used for the last 5 years?"

We could make the whole thing even more blatant. Why not use a special scriptin program version that is _designed_ to be detectable? Of cource, you wouldn't feel comfortable using something like that but in fact, it probably wouldn't make any difference. But it would force EA to admit that they didn't satisfy their customers' need to change the game towards less boring tasks and that they kept looking away for the past couple of years. Something like that would kill off the whole PB marketing trick right at the beginning.

Maybe you're asking yourself, if Cheffe knew scriptin program was detectable client-side in one way or another, why didn't he say anything? Because that would have created an unnecessary panic. We didn't see any ban waves for using scriptin program in the past so it was unlikely they'd do anything like that in the future. The only time you're at risk is if you do something stupid and a GM pays you a visit, in which case you're hosed anyway. After all, you knew the risks and lived with them. And you knew that many others were using scriptin program too and didn't get banned either.

In all those years, we've been trying to protect our users by not allowing any cheats/exploits to appear or be discussed on our website. We've kept scriptin program itself cheat-free and didn't include stuff that would be too dangerous. This was all done because we didn't want to "anger the dragon".

scriptin program itself isn't good or bad. It can be used for either. And that's the problem with it. EA is trying to get rid of it because the bad people are hiding in the mass of legitimate scriptin program users.

So, no matter how we react on EAs apparent new stance towards scriptin program, if they're really willing to go through with this against a third of their customers, then you'll probably see a few changes here.

Of course, I'd much more like the idea to work with EA in order to fight the problem of farm bots or even to integrate scriptin program into UO or make it UO Pro or something. But I haven't been approached in the past. And since they kept looking away, I just did the same. So EA, if you're up to it, get back to me and we'll see if we can find a better solution.

Otherwise, if worst comes to worst, I might decide to make scriptin program open source to give EA users a chance to cook up their own scriptin program versions. Of course, I would continue to manage and support scriptin program and maybe play a little hide and seek with this oh so powerful PunkBuster. In the end, it really only matters if EA is willing to ban thousands of people and lose a lot of money in the process.

As in the past, we encourage all EA users to take a look at our freeshard server Alexandria or at any of the other high quality servers out there. In case you want to completely turn your back on Ultima Online, I can really recommend World of Warcraft, which is already played by about 50 times as many users as UO has. It looks really nice graphics-wise and comes with an integrated addon system (not really full macro support like scriptin program has but hey, you can't have everything). Most tasks in WoW aren't nearly as boring as some in UO are, the economy is healthy and casual gaming is possible up to some point. They're even offering free 10-day trial accounts here
Other than that there isn't much to say This is my opinion and how I see things. You're free to post your comments below. Also don't hesitate to let the Stratics guys know about this, too.